[Sherri S]

My husband and I are mostly vegetarians. He eats more meat than I do. The problem with raw meats is a potential problem with E. Coli or Salmonella that occurs in the slaughtering process. In fast slaughtering machines they try to get animals to run through as it slices them up into thousands of pieces. As many of you may recall, Chipotle had a similar problem. At a slaughterhouse (which I am opposed to doing to animals, anyway, btw), ALL of the creature’s body including intestinal tract is often mixed in together, especially in he fast slaughtering machine type. This is why meats were cooked in the first place. To reduce bacteria in the meal itself especially intestinal tract. When we defecate, thousands of bacterial often leave our bodies (humans and dogs). These same areas where our bowel movements occur are full of bacterial and sometimes viruses. Also, fish uncooked can give you a parasite called neorickettsia helminthoeca which is very poisonous to dogs. A vet can also check the feces for nanophyetus salmincola to check for laid eggs. Our dogs get a very good diet of cooked veggies (uncooked can puncture the intestine or cause a disease such as Hepatitis in humans). This is usually due to some countries using human feces as fertilizer which can transmit Hepatitis to other people. I hope this helps.

[Sirius K]

I have a 2 and a half year old mastiff. He is absolutely lovely and has been more or less in good health his whole life. He isn’t on an 100% raw diet, though a lot of what I give him throughout the day is raw meat/slightly cooked meat/meat-based actually good quality treats (I do heavy research before buying anything lmao)

Anyway, so my dog loves steak. So do I. Steak used to be a birthday treat, but since we moved into a place on our own and it’s just the two of us– anyway, he gets steak a lot now. He’s all about that. Lol. I cut his portion into pieces to give him before I season or cook my portion.

Anyway, at the nearby farmer’s market, I recently bought a calf heart (organic, grass-fed, very nice looking) — I haven’t had full on raw beef heart before and neither has my dog. It was frozen when I purchased it and it’s been frozen up until I tossed it in my fridge to thaw. Seeing as it’s a muscle, I figured he would view it similar to steak.

I cut him a couple pieces today because he seemed interested, but he wouldn’t touch it!
This is the first time he’s turned down (meat) raw food of any type. He’s usually only the type to turn down most fruits and vegetables (that are safe for dogs of course) lol.

Did he just think it smelled weird or something? Raw heart does smell rather strong even to me– so I’m sure it smells a hell of a lot to him. But he really likes his other smelly treats– like the green tripe sticks by Barkworthies. So, do you know what’s up?

I’m about to soak some pieces in apple cider vinegar because I read a few places that it would cut down on the smell. But yeah. I was fully planning on sharing this bounty with him. Haha. I don’t know why he isn’t interested. I’m half worried something is wrong with the beef heart I bought and that’s why he won’t eat it, but everything checks out and it seems really fresh.

He loves chicken hearts and all that good stuff.
Anyway, any ideas?
Thanks. 🙂

• This topic was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Sirius K.

[Acroyali]

Just a few of my own thoughts:

When I was in the transitional stages, one of my cats choked…on kibble. He was excessively hungry, and I was removing the 24 hour a day buffet in order to get them acclimated to meal times. He was OK, but any living thing can choke on anything. Bones can be scary, and if someone isn’t comfortable feeding bones I never would suggest it dissuades them from feeding a healthier diet than they’re already feeding. Hare Today offers boneless grinds (meat only) as well as boneless chunks of meat. I believe chicken and turkey both come this way, check the product description to be sure.

I’ve used boneless chunks as “reminders” to chew. I never give an excessively hungry dog anything bone-in; bones come after the main meal, which is mostly muscle meats and organs. It works for us, hopefully it can and will work for others.

I have and do brush teeth on a few of my dogs as a precaution. The issue I have is getting more brushed than the stuff we see at first glance. Getting the gumline on the inside part of the back molars with a toothbrush is next to impossible. Your dogs’ teeth may look wonderful when you lift their lip up. But if they yawn or pant and you get a glimpse of gross stuff on the INSIDE of the teeth, chewing is their best bet to get their teeth cleaned up.

I used to be a huge fan of recreational bones until a recent tooth fracture on one of my larger dogs. Now I know why some owners call them “wreck” bones 😉

I have never had the unfortunate experiences described here by some from puncturing or choking to death, and hope I never do. I know of one person who had a boxer choke on an ox tail and the dog died on the way to the vet. I’m SUPER weird about choosing large things for my dogs to chew on for this reason; even if they don’t totally consume the whole thing at once. There’s no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming raw bones, but there’s also no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming tainted, moldy, spoiled “safe” dry food (covered in salmonella, BTW), or have suffered greatly from eating a poor choice of food *for them* and have had the symptoms suppressed with drugs.

JMO.

[Acroyali]

It could most definitely work. However, I wouldn’t start out feeding all those protein sources at once. Pick one (chicken is usually good) and make sure they do well, then add in another. Go slow. I started out feeding a single protein source for about 2 weeks, then added another, etc, as well as organs. (Keep in mind things like hearts and gizzards are considered muscle meats, not organs; though gizzards are great for teeth on smaller animals that can’t swallow them whole.)

I personally don’t feed pork or fish for various reasons. It all boils down to what you can ethically source, what your animals do well on, and what is affordable. Turkeys are really cheap after the holidays; if you’re in the states, you can get turkeys (even organically raised) for cheap after Thanksgiving. (Our stores have whole duck, too, during the holidays.)

If at all possible, it might help to locate a pro-raw vet (they’re out there, trust me!) who can help if you run into any issues. Our primary vet is 2 hours away, simply because the clinic is very holistic. And as bad as the term “holistic” is thrown around anymore, they truly embody the term in their practice. Best of luck.

[Susan]

Hi Kaleena, what about adding blended veggies like broccoli, apple, carrot, celery, I use to add 1-2 spoons of the blended veggies to 1 cup of raw, I would make up a batch then freeze in ice cube trays & cover with cling wrap…
also tin sardines in spring water or olive oil add about 3 sardines to 1 meal a day, if you go on Rodney Habib face book page he has a balanced raw recipe easy to make made by Dr Karen Becker & Steve Brown…. also are you feeding 2 meals a day??
When I started feeding a raw diet cause my boy ate kibble he was very hungry eating the raw diet & I had to feed 2 meals a day & he still wanted more, so I gave him 1/2 cup kibble so he would settle & sleep at night, I’d hear his stomach grumbling with hunger, I told the Naturopath who’s Maintenance Diet I had him on & she said yes it can take a while for them to get use to not eating carbs, kibble is full of carbs….. Here’s the Maintenance Diet I followed.
http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/education.php

[marie d]

Hi, im trying to get some advice for taking my boy off kibble and putting him onto raw please. Im so nervous to get it wrong and cause him any harm so would really your help. A little background on him, he is a 9 1/2 year labrador that has been on kibble his whole life. I stupidly thought that as we were getting him the expensive kibble we were feeding him the best. He has been on royal canin gastro for the past 2 years due to him having gastro issues sll his life. The vet came to the conclusion he has an intolerance to fat so needs to be on the low fat diet which has worked for him as we havent had any gastro issues for 2 yr now whilst on this food. Whst he has though is cancer now twice in the past 18 months, both mast cell tumours which led us to start looking into whats in his food. We really want to get him off kibblebas strongly feel that this has contributed to him getting cancer. Ive red so much conflicting info on how to change from dry to raw and am so confused as to what will be best for him. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long post 🙁

[InkedMarie]

Glad I feed ground raw with bones to gnaw on; I can’t imagine watching a dog choke to death. Sorry you had to, Aimee.

[Kaleena R]

So I’ve been researching and have decided i’d like to do raw feeding for my dogs. I have looked into how to do it the most cost effective way for myself and have come up with a proposed “plan”. Would just like opinions and advice to let me know if its sufficient or what I need to add or subtract!

So the plan is 3 days a week feed chicken quarter (bone and meat), 1 day a whole rabbit, 1 day a whole duck,and 2 days of pork(bone and meat). I would also give 1 egg a week and every other week switch duck out for turkey.

Is this sufficient? Enough variety for health?

[Spy Car]

Hey Cannoli,

Homes are filled with a myriad of items that can be considered choking hazards for dogs (and children). People starting raw feeding should monitor their dogs to make sure they get the hang of chewing bone (which is about as natural an instinct as canines could have). Feeding larger sized pieces of bone-in parts (like chicken quarters) that can’t be gulped is always smart, as is supervising a dog new to raw feeding.

But dogs are hard wired to chew. The risks of choking on appropriately sized chicken bones are very low and diminish to near zero as dogs get accustomed to it. Intestinal blockages from items like chicken bones are exceedingly rare. I’d worry a lot more about socks.

The calcium (and its bioavailability) from bone is not in question. Concerns about absorption are misplaced. Getting calcium from bone is what canines were shaped by evolution to do. It is superior to artificial supplementation.

The PMR style of feeding with 10% bone keeps the Calcium Phosphorus ratios at the perfect 1.2:1 levels recommended by the leading authorities as optimal. It is spreading a false fear that rotational feedings with calcium supplements are necessary to maintain mineral balances:it simply isn’t so.

The act of chewing is good for dogs. It is relaxing for them. It builds good dental health (encouraging strong gums and clean teeth) and builds strong neck and jaw muscles, in a fashion that feeding calcium powder does not.

If an owner wishes to brush teeth on top of raw feeding, great! I just know how many conventionally fed dogs I know and they nearly all have tartar-stained yellowing (if not rotten teeth) in marked contrast to raw fed dogs whose teeth stay nice and white (with fresh breath).

When we get phobic or fearful about very natural ways of being it has a cost. This is true both with dogs and with children. One can cut off “play” because someone might get hurt, but that comes at a cost. The risks of feeding soft edible bones to dogs is very (very) low, Cutting them out of the diet due to inflated assessments of the risks has a cost.

The advantages to feeding soft edible bone vastly outweigh the risks. Feeding powdered calcium is sub-optimal.

Bill

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

Removing soft edible bone from the diet (or replacing it with pre-ground bone) removes one of the prime benefits of feeding raw in the first place. It really makes little sense unless there is a good cause for doing so (like an old dog with dental issues).

Chewing soft edible is important for good dental health in addition to providing calcium. It is a reason for embracing raw feeding, not something to figure out how to avoid.

Bill

[Cannoli]

Hi Jessica K,

I understand what your vet was saying. My own doctor told me the same thing when I told him I eat my meat on the very rare side and indulge in sushi once a week.

Now poultry I don’t feed raw to my dog. Poultry scares me…

I source my red meat from reputable, organic, human grade facilities. The same place that has been shipping my steaks to me for years.Never got sick eating very rare meat from them so I feed it to my dog.

[Cannoli]

Hi Spy Car,

I don’t consider raw finely ground vegetables to be unnecessary if fed 10% or less of the dog’s diet.

Veggies provide a plethora of additional vitamins that are not found in a meat base diet.

[Jenn H]

My pup, his mother and a littermate all began suffering from similar skin problems at the beginning of spring. Not to the severity of your dog. It appears to be environmental allergies with them.
For my puppy I would use a product I have for my horse. Eqyss Micro-Tek shampoo. “Soothes on contact”. Then I would spray the really bad areas with Eqyss Micro-Tek Equine Spray. (They do make it for dogs. It’s the same stuff, but more costly.) This stuff is amazing. I’ve used it on myself.
For his ears I use epi-otic from the vet. When I ran out I put the equine spray on a cotton ball. Make sure to dry out the ears when you clean them.
He also gets raw honey from a neighbor 2x/day. That has been the ultimate fix. As long as he gets the honey he doesn’t have any problems. After 1 wk without it he begins to get itchy and hot spots. Same with his brother.
Honey must be raw, wildflower honey that is within 50 miles from home.

Food intolerance could certainly be a factor for your dog. I would try an elimination diet if you think that’s a cause.

Tick borne diseases can go into remission and you may never have another flare up again. I have another dog that has had Ehrlichia and now Lyme. I have a bunch of horses with Lyme also. I haven’t known any of them to present with those symptoms you described.
You really need to make sure the dog has a tick borne illness before giving doxy. It’s a pretty hardcore antibiotic. You certainly don’t want to give it needlessly. It can also cause stomach issues. Maybe your dog isn’t breaking down proteins well. If they do have a tick borne illness then the immune system is already taxed. The slightest allergen can become a big problem. My girl takes a probiotic (2 hrs before or after her antibiotic when on it) to help her immune system and minimize the side effects of doxy as much as possible. Fortiflora has been working great for her. She’s on it indefinitely right now, but I continue probiotics at least 2 wks after antibiotic treatment has stopped.

[tara k]

I live in SE Virginia. We do have Lyme’s here. And, several years ago, they said he had a “tick disease” but that it was not Lyme’s. Maybe I should have him rechecked for that? I also tried another allergy medicine a few months ago but it did not seem to help. It was crazy expensive. Not sure if it’s the one you are suggesting, but I am calling the vet now to make an appointment.
I have not tried feeding raw but am considering that now. I was looking for possibly a freeze dried option that won’t break the bank! he’s 70-75 pounds.

[anonymous]

Please consider making an appointment with a board-certified veterinary dermatologist, asap. Environmental allergies have nothing to do with the food. If you care to disclose the state/location you are in, I will do a search regarding a dermatologist. Allergies don’t go away and they get worse with age. The good news is that the condition does respond to treatment, but, it is lifelong treatment as there is no cure.

per the search engine here /forums/search/allergies/

PS: I had to change my user name to anonymous 101, formally anonymously….in case that concerns some of the regulars here.

Hope this helps:

By Klaus Loft, DVM
Angell Dermatology Service

Anyone who suffers debilitating environmental allergies tied to changing seasons, pet dander or household dust mites knows first-hand the misery of a scratchy throat, itchy eyes or painful rashes.

Not everyone knows, however, that our pets can experience similar allergic reactions — and other very bothersome dermatological issues. But our pets need not suffer in silence. Modern veterinary science has evolved such that advanced, comprehensive treatments are now available to treat a range of skin conditions.

Top pet dermatological issues

Our four-legged friends suffer from some of the same skin issues as we do — and several that we do not. The most common conditions we see at Angell include:

•Parasites, such as mites, fleas and mange (scabies)
•Infectious diseases, such as Staphylococcal pyoderma (“Staph”) skin infections, yeast and fungal infections and skin fold infections
•Systemic diseases, such as autoimmune diseases
•Skin cancer, such as Squamous cell carcinoma, cutaneous lymphoma, Mast cell tumors
•Allergies, such as flea allergy dermatitis, adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, etc.

All of these conditions can become serious and, if untreated, dramatically reduce quality of life. But the tremendous strides made in veterinary innovation, however, is very good news for our pets. Specifically, the testing and treatments for allergies now rivals human healthcare in its sophistication, quality of care and long-term health outcomes.

Unlike humans, dogs and cats cannot tell us about their dermatological health issues. So we as pet owners must look for the signs. The most common indicators that a pet is suffering from some kind of allergy involve frequent episodes of ear infections, red raised or open sores on the skin, constant licking or biting of paws or groin — sometimes causing wounds that will not go away.

Allergies present a particular challenge because there can be hundreds (even thousands) of potential allergens that impact pet health, from foods to pollen from grasses, weeds, trees, dust mites and more. Today’s specialty veterinary hospitals have access to the very latest diagnostic tests to get to the bottom of what’s ailing our pet. Among these tests is the Intra Dermal Test (IDT).

IDT is generally considered the gold standard of testing for identifying allergens that cause pets to suffer from chronic skin and/or ear diseases. IDT involves injections of a series of concentrated allergens into the skin to determine which of them generate allergic reactions in a given animal. The use of fluorescein — a chemical that illuminates the inflammation caused by the injected allergens in order to visualize the strength of individual reactions — is key to accurately diagnosing pet allergies, and is just one of the many ways veterinarians use new technologies to improve care and diagnostics.

The results of IDT (as well as a review of the pet’s medical history) can then inform comprehensive immunotherapy treatments to relieve suffering. Veterinary dermatologists rely on IDT to build customized treatment plans for patients called Allergen Specific Immuno Therapy or “ASIT” for short.

ASIT involves a series of injections specifically created for the allergic animal’s skin. These injections, of diluted allergens, are designed to make a pet less sensitive to their allergens over time. In most cases these injections must be continued for life to reduce symptoms, but they are highly effective. Seventy to 90 percent of pets experience a reduction in symptoms as a result of ASIT treatment. These treatments can be delivered even more easily via droplets under the tongue, perfect for pet owners who are squeamish about giving injections to their pet.

This treatment is very new to the North American field of medicine (both human and veterinary) and underscores just how far innovation in veterinary medicine has come.

When it’s time to see the vet

Many pet owners are understandably concerned about taking their animals to the veterinarian because the cost (to say nothing of the fear some animals experience when going do the doctor) may outweigh any perceived reduction in suffering. To help pet owners know when it’s time to bring Fido to the doctor I’ve compiled my “Top Ten” list of dermatological symptoms that should never be ignored:

•Intense itching of the skin (head shaking, running the face into the carpet, furniture, etc.)
•Biting at the skin that creates red, raw crusting areas of the skin
•Multiple ear infections (head shaking, odor from ears, scratching at the ears with hind legs)
•Paw licking or chewing and frequent infections of the skin in the webbed skin of the paws
•Staining of the fur of the paws and nails on multiple feet
•Reoccurring skin infections in the groin, under the shoulders, perianal areas (on or under the tail)
•Greasy scaling skin and/or fur with odorous skin
•Hair loss, or thinning of the fur
•Dark pigmentation of the skin that is chronically infected
•Sudden depigmentation of skin

Allergies and other dermatological issues can be as frustrating for pet owners and their veterinarians as they can be for pets. I encourage any pet owner whose animal is experiencing any of these symptoms to consult with their veterinarian.

[Freddy w]

Also you may want to try a raw diet
Like chicken and raw hamburger

[Patty M]

Any opinion on this food from Merrick? Not sure if it is new. I see the other Backcountry versions have 5 star ratings.

I’ve had my dog, Georgia, a mixed breed lab for about 10 months now. She is 1 1/2 years old. She’s always had really soft poop and was being fed Diamond Naturals Grain Free. So I recently started trying new foods. She seems to like this food and is doing well so far.

[Spy Car]

As I mentioned in the other thread, both you and your dogs are likely to be a lot better off following a Prey Model diet as opposed to using recipes by Dr Pitcairn that undermine the advantages of a raw diet by including unnecessary (and counterproductive) grains and vegetables and excluding highly positive soft edible bones.

Feeding whole foods in the right ratios will eliminate the need for supplementation, and optimize health. Also easier on you.

Dr Pitcairn’s approach is outmoded and not widely followed or esteemed in the raw feeding community. It is too much like trying to emulate commercial food at home, instead of feeding a natural whole food diet.

As to bones, I don’t personally feed turkey legs, but some people do. I do feed turkey necks. All chicken bones (raw) are good.

Oily-fish is good, but limit to twice a week feedings (not daily) as most of the most-beneficial fish species have a substance that can block Vitamin B12. This substance, called Thaminaise, passes quickly. It is not a big deal unless you feed a lot of fish on a daily basis.

What are health cuts for dogs are cuts that include plenty of fat. Lean cuts, like inexpensive trimmed beef heart and be supplemented with animal fat. Dogs need to transition to fat burning, so better to being with lean meals and work up slowly. And you need organs.

Once growth plateaus you are better feeding once a day (post wind down from the day’s activities). When not fed grains/carbohydrates (as it ideal, and a prime reason to do a raw diet) dogs turn to the superior (for them) fat metabolism. When fat burning dogs have nearly unlimited stores of energy, so don’t need multiple meals throughout the day. Better if durning their active time they run and play on empty stomachs (especially in large breeds that have risks of GVD aka bloat/torsion).

I’d ditch Dr Pitcairn, which is what I’d suspect you’ll hear from virtually all the raw feeders you encounter. It is both a hassle and a diet with highly questionable downsides.

Bill

[crazy4cats]

Hi Justin-
I agree with Anon. I wouldn’t add any supplements to the kibble unless your dog develops a condition that warrants them. I do think adding fresh or canned foods along with some water is a great idea. Just remember to feed less kibble to make up for the added calories.

I feed my dogs mostly Whole Earth Farms and Nutrisource kibble and add either canned food, tripe, egg, sardines or commercial raw to it. Good luck to you!

[InkedMarie]

Dogs have no need for grains and raw food with grains makes no sense. You need to join a raw food community to find out how to feed your large breed puppy. Don’t count on stretching your dollar. If your budget is thst tight, a smaller puppy may have been smart but you already have the dog so now I time to find other raw feeders with large breeds

[Molly F]

I realized I should have posted this as a new topic, not buried at the end of another topic!
So, sorry if it’s a repeat for some:
Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas.
I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?
I know many people recommend a more “primal” style diet, but I’m on a tight budget these days and the grain component will Really help stretch my dollar!

[Spy Car]

Courtney, I’d advocate you really consider PMR.

Feeding soft edible bone (like chicken bones) really isn’t scary. An 80/10/10 model of diverse sources will keep the nutrition on track.

One place where I’d diverge from the advice of some raw feeding websites is on the issue of delaying organs. I think this is a very bad idea on two fronts. One, the nutrients from organs are vital (especially in growing puppies). Two, delay increases the odds of a dog developing an aversion to organs. I’ve read of people delaying organs (and advocating the practice) and then saying they need to virtually force-feed them later (as organs are not optional).

My advice if you choose PMR is to introduce organs as soon as you have stable stools. Organs can lossen stools, so it is a good idea to start adding them in in wee amounts and build up to PMR percentages over time.

Relax about chicken bones. Do monitor the dogs as they start to make sure they are not gulpers (bigger pieces help ensure chewing). There are hard bones that are best avoided to prevent tooth damage, but chicken is easy.

There is no value in adding carbohydrates to the meals. Dogs process fat much more efficiently as their primary energy source, with sustained energy and peak aerobic capacity vs the quick peaks and valleys of carbohydrates that cut stamina and aerobic capacity.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Hey Molly,

I’d suggest you look into the Prey Model of feeding raw foods. I think it would be a better match for your desire to feed whole food ingredients to your dog, and is more healthful than Dr Picairn’s regimen which is heavy on vegetables and grain, and lacks soft edible bone.

Keeping the calcium:phosphorus ratios in the correct target range is important, but by feeding PMR ratios (10% soft edible bone) it is also pretty simple. Dogs get all the nutrients they need from eating diverse animal products.

Following the 80/10/10 model (“meat”/organs/soft edible bones) while diversifying the components is a very straightforward way to feed and get the highest nutritional levels to your dog.

The elaborate recipes of some raw feeding variants put a lot of needless strain on owners, and actually reduce the nutritional value of the diet.

Soft edible bones (like chicken bones) are a great natural source of calcium. Chewing bone also tends to keep dog’s teeth clean, and it promotes strong teeth, strong jaw and neck muscles, and it relaxes dogs to chew.

Best wish on your journey.

Bill

[anonymously]

/forums/topic/questions-concerning-raw/#post-89920

[Molly F]

Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas. I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?

[Spy Car]

PMR calls for 10% secreting organs (half of that being liver). Vitamin D is fat-soluble, so it is stored in the body and need not be supplied in the same levels daily.

Personally, I feed 10% organs daily with one day being liver and the alternate day being kidney, pancreas, spleen, or other to avoid getting “behind,” which “balance over time” (a preference of some raw feeders, but not an intrinsic part of PRM) practices can lead to if people don’t actually keep organs in the weekly diet.

I’m still not seeing that it is obvious how Vitamin D levels were critically low if Toby was getting PMR levels of liver, plus eggs and other Vitamin D sources on a fairly regular basis.

Bill

[Karen B]

What about the new air dried Real Meat? All, K9 Natural, Vital Essentials and Northwest Naturals raw??

[mary s]

I had two Irish Setters with IBD…they were brothers. It showed up at about 5 or 6 months of age. Bloody, mucus filled poops. I went through several vets because I did not want to use steroids. One boy was 58 pounds and the other was 52 pounds at the onset. After I finally put them on a homemade raw diet (the commercial raw diets did not work for them…I think because of the organ meats in them) and supplements, their poops normalized and they went to 82 and 75 pounds. They have recently passed away…one had a fibrosis in his lungs that I think was caused by the IBD. They had good years once I got the IBD under control. I hope you are able to do that with diet. The raw diet and supplements are what saved them. I forgot to add….I also used the homeopathic remedies Nux Vomica and Arsenicum Album.
Best of luck

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by mary s.

[pitlove]

Hi Mary-

Congratulations on your new puppy. Sounds like he is going to be a big boy!

In regards to your specific questions, the list from 2013 is her most current list. Hound Dog Mom has been unable to contribute to the forums lately so the list has not been updated. Any company from that list you are considering I would email and ask for a nutrient analysis to confirm that the Ca and Phos levels have not changed. I would then input them into the calcium calculator on this site to double check that it falls within the safe ratios. Not only for the Ca and Phos, but also for the calorie to Ca ratio.

I agree with your vet about waiting to begin a raw diet until after the critical growth phase. And when you do decide to try raw selecting a random recipe from a book or the Internet is not advised. It would be wiser to use a commercial raw diet from a reputable company to ensure proper nutrient levels. Do not buy into the “balance over time” concept. Proponents of this believe that a diet that is not balanced daily can be balanced over time. It is thought that because many humans do not each balanced meals daily, dogs can also do the same. What they forget is that those individuals not eating balanced meals daily often end up with adverse affects later in life. Same is true for our pets.

In regard to Orijen Puppy Large, yes they did reformulate for more appropriate calcium levels.

[HoundMusic]

Have you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?

They get at least 5% organ meats, if not slightly more, and most of that is beef liver. I also feed egg yolks for Vit D., and occasionally give unsalted butter for that, iodine & Omega 3.

The raw, prey model diet, however, does not take into account daily nutritional requirements of dogs, but utilizes a “balance over time” method – so if any deficiency was present, balancing a diet over time and not on a daily basis would likely contribute to the already low levels of Vit. D, which, if allowed to continue with Toby not meeting the requirement for his vitamins on a daily basis, would eventually lead to osteomalacia. My Vet did not have to offer that explanation. I think it’s obvious.

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

In regards to your questions:

I would get full blood panels on each dog prior to starting your new diet so that you have a baseline to compare back to. I’ve seen it recommended to repeat blood panels every 6 months for dogs on homemade diets.

Some feel comfortable feeding bones.. I do not… I do not think the risk is worth the benefit. If using raw bone as your calcium source I feel finely ground is much safer. Disclosure: I do not feed a raw diet. If I did I’d either use a commercial HPP product or would buy large cuts and partially cook to kill off the bacteria both on the surface and those that have migrated deeper and grind myself. I remain unconvinced that dogs tolerate food borne pathogens significantly better then people do.

What supplements you use are up to your own personal philosophy. The primary concern is that you feed a balanced diet. Unfortunately, when the raw diets that people were feeding have been analyzed, most people who participated in the study did not accomplishing this.

I understand the appeal of a simple 80/10/10 mix but honestly I think it requires just as much attention to detail to balance a raw diet as it does to balance a cooked diet.

There are a few veterinary nutritionists that will balance a raw diet, most will not. Veterinary nutritionists legally can not consult directly with you unless they examine your dog which is why you found that they do not do phone/e mail consults. However they can consult indirectly via your veterinarian. Your vet orders the consult and works with the nutritionist on your behalf.

In regards to carbohydrates, people do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates and dogs do not either. Both species require carbohydrate from a metabolic standpoint, the body just has to generate what the diet doesn’t supply. But I don’t understand this statement “Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does” Protein and carbs are considered to carry the same number of calories /gram, the volumes involved will depend on the water content.

[mary s]

Hello pitluv – I am new to the forum. I am getting an 8 week old Irish Setter in a few days. I have been reading this thread for a many hours (whew!) and first want to say a huge thank you to all….especially Hound Dog Mom. My puppy has been on Iams large breed puppy food. I will want to transition him to another food asap. He is 7 weeks old and weighs 14 pounds! That seems like a lot to me…but I haven’t had a setter puppy in 12 years. I have the lists, and HDM’s comments read, and am leaning towards The Honest Kitchen and Fromm’s large breed puppy. I will feed him raw eventually, but my vet is saying to wait until about 8 months because he is a Setter. I stopped reading at 850 comments, and would like to know if there is a newer list after that (around Sept, 2013) that HDM may have posted/compiled. The last list I am referring to is where she included raw and grain inclusive? Also, I read a comment you made a few days ago about Orijin reformulating the large breed puppy…is that correct? Is it now acceptable for the LBP list HDM started a few years ago? I remember she did not recommend it back then. Thank you.

[Courtney R]

Being from 1973 doesn’t make it any less valid. Dogs wouldn’t go from not needing starches to needing them in a 40 year period, evolution doesn’t work that quickly.

And the book isnt written by vets, its written National Research Council. It’s used by colleges to educate veterinary nutritionists.

My vet meant exactly what he said ,which is that dogs don’t NEED carbs. Meaning, it’s not harmful to remove them.

If you feed your kibble with toppers and your dog does well, then great! However, I feed my dogs quality kibble and they are not doing great on it so I am looking in to alternatives, one of which is raw. Basically, I’m educating myself in exactly the same way I do when it comes to making food choices for myself. I would never rely solely on what one person says regarding my diet, be it my doctor, my personal trainer or some whackadoo on the internet. Why would I do that for my dog?

[Spy Car]

There is no doubt about what mineral imbalances are present, because the blood chemistry panel tests for everything. Both his levels of calcium & phosphorous were normal (Ca 9.2 & Phos 4.1), while he displayed no signs whatsoever of liver problems, which is what low ALP usually indicates. So by process of elimination, it was determined that his vitamin D levels were lacking. I have no reason to disbelieve the Vet, and my own research is only confirming what he told me.

********

Have you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?

I wonder (and don’t know) over what period of time a blood test establishes a proper calcium-phosphorus balance? Is it a snap-shot in time (and variable in reflecting recent meals, or does it show a longer term value?

Fellow raw feeders should be aware that osteomalacia can be brought on not only by Vitamin D deficiencies, but also by calcium-phosphorus imbalances due to feeding the improper ratios of meat, bones, and organs.

Best wishes with your dog.

Bill

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Spy Car.

[Courtney R]

My comments about carbohydrates?
Well, theres this study on (working) sled dogs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4734973
That showed that despite their level of rigorous activity they actually perform better on high fat, high protein diets.

Or maybe this educational textbook:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10668/nutrient-requirements-of-dogs-and-cats
That states that there’s no requirement of digestible carbohydrates in dogs diets.

And there’s my vet, who explicitly told me there’s no need for dogs to eat carbs, it’s just nearly impossible to make dry kibble without them.

And I’m not decided on anything, I’ve just posted questions regarding feeding raw in a raw forum. Why would I post my questions about preparing cooked food for my dogs in a raw forum, when obviously no one in that forum cooks their food??

[crazy4cats]

Hi Courtney R-

Have you ever checked out the http://www.balanceit.com website? It’s a site that allows you to formulate free recipes for healthy dogs and cats. You can choose protein, carb, veggie and/or fruits of your choice. You then can taylor it to your dog’s weight and whatever percetage of fat and protein you want to feed. You do need to buy their supplement to balance it with the proper vitamins and minerals as well.

If your pet has a health condition, they will work with your vet to formulate the recipes for you. Check it out. I have a few recipes that I feed my dogs every now and then.

Good luck!

Edit: BTW, this site is only for cooked home made food, no raw.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Courtney R]

This link is useful, thank you! I’m guessing you’re a different anonymous user as this diet encourages feeding meat raw lol. I obviously haven’t read through all of it thoroughly (I will), but I wonder about carbs. Dogs don’t need them, and they don’t seem to agree with my dogs, so I’m looking to eliminate them. I wonder if I put that 45-55% towards protein if this would no longer be balanced or if I would just be feeding less? I’ll definitely read through this, and thanks again for posting it.

[Courtney R]

I get that there are dangers to feeding raw and I don’t criticize anyone for trying to make others aware of that fact. All I was trying to say is that a lot of the links posted aren’t particularly useful. For example, the recipe posted earlier was basically chicken, rice and a supplement. I feed my dogs chicken and rice (a bland diet) if they have diarrhea, it’s not really something I would consider balanced and even if I added a supplement it’s not something I would want to feed my dogs routinely or long term. Like I said, I’ve also been researching home cooked meals and am open to them, but from everything I’ve been reading it actually seems MORE difficult to ensure dogs are receiving balanced nutrition from home cooked as opposed to raw. I don’t want to end up in an emergency clinic because of what I’m feeding them (cooked or raw) which is why I’m trying to diligently do my homework.

[anonymously]

“To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads”.

I am someone who has tried raw diets for my pets, as I would speculate the others that are trying to alert you to the possible dangers probably are.
I don’t enjoy going to the emergency veterinary clinics.

PS: I am an RN and have owned dogs for a few decades.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by anonymously.

[Courtney R]

To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads. I’m not in the least opposed to home cooking for my dogs. In fact that was the first thing I looked into after deciding to get them off kibble. I imagine a lot of people do the same. Feeding raweat to my pets is, quite frankly, a little scary.

However, I can’t find much useful information on formulating a home cooked diet. Recipes, sure, but I want something that gives me numbers/formulas/percentages. Maybe I’m weird but I want to just Google recipes and start trying random things. I like that prey model operates on an 80/10/10 and I can sit down and calcute how much meat, bone and organs to feed them. I also like that there’s no starches (potatoes, rice, etc) involved as I am trying to avoid those in their diet.

What I’m getting at is if you know any good sites, books, articles etc that will teach me how to formulate a diet that meets all their nutritional requirements I would love to read it. Im just not finding either of the links you posted particularly informative.

To inkedmarie: So glad I’m not the only one who feels overwhelmed! 😊

[InkedMarie]

I felt pretty overwhelmed; no lie. I feed grinds because my husband isn’t interested in. True prey model raw but we do feed turkey necks & beef rib bones. For us, grinds are easy: thre the scale, scoop in, add supplements & feed.

I buy from Hare today; Google for the website. There is a ton of info there and if you have questions, email them. Tracy is the owner and very helpful.

[anonymously]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/ (excerpt below, click on link for full article)
“Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food”.
http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes
More information below:

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

[Susan]

Hi Caryn, you have to realise vets aren’t nutritionist & some vets know stuff all about nutrition for dogs & cats….. a good vet would be telling you to feed a balanced raw or cooked diet to your dog & cat, not a kibble….
You should always rotate between a few different brand kibbles & different proteins when feeding a kibble, never just feed the one brand & same protein their whole lives like some people do….also add fresh whole foods to the kibble…. They have found by adding 1 tablespoon of cooked veggies/fruit or a protein to the dogs kibble just 3 times a week can reduce the chances of them getting cancer.. …follow “Rodney Habib” the Pet nutrition blogger on Face Book he’s excellent & it’s so easy to make your dog healthier, happier & live longer…since dogs have been eating just kibble they aren’t living as long as when they were fed table scraps & cooked meals..

When picking a good kibble, look at the ingredients, a good kibble should have at least 3-5 proteins as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th ingredient, then should have a carb like sweet potatoes as the next ingredient….. also when the ingredients are written, the ingredients are raw, not cooked yet except if it says meal eg, chicken meal, lamb meal, duck meal etc also the ingredient list is written on weight, so when ingredients are cooked the ingredients shrink, especially proteins/meats, a good kibble should read Lamb, then Lamb Meal, chicken meal, or turkey, turkey meal, chicken meal etc when it says meal there’s more meat cause the meal is cooked meats dried & made into powder form (meal) but when it just say chicken or lamb or duck, it’s raw & hasn’t been cooked yet it needs the meal to follow, duck then duck meal or chicken then chicken meal etc… also if it say’s fish or ocean fish you want to know what type of fish it is?? it should say salmon, salmon meal or Whitefish, Sardines or Anchovy …..
Have a look at “Canidae” Pure formulas grain free & their Life Stages formulas, their Life Stages, All Life Stages formula is a good kibble, it has 4 high quality meat meals, chicken, turkey, lamb & fish & is a pretty good price when you buy a 20kg bag, then look for another premium kibble & I rotate in the same day some times, I give Patch his “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain for breakfast then he has Canidae Life Stages formula for dinner when I forget to take out his cooked meal out of freezer…. Some people rotate when the bag of kibble is down too 1/4 of the bag left then start adding & mixing in the next new kibble your going to feed, after you have rotated a few different kibbles you don’t really need to slowly introduce anymore……You will see a difference when your dog is feed a better quality kibble that agrees with him, they have more energy, their coat shines, their poos are firm & smaller…. then pick about 3 different kibbles with different proteins & fed them but still keep your eye out for another kibble to try that’s on special or new..
Go onto the “Review” section & start looking at 3-5 star kibbles, I prefer a kibble with less ingredients, limited ingredient kibbles & I add fresh cooked food to the kibble, tin sardines in oil/spring water are excellent, I add tin Salmon in spring water, you ban add the salmon bones, you give about 3 small sardines or 1/4 of the small tin, also veggies broccoli, berries, apple, I fed pieces of peeled seeded apple, watermelon, rock melon as treats also yogurt Patch gets 1 heap spoon yogurt at 11 am every day now….3-4 years ago if I gave Patch anything different in his diet he’d have diarrhea, gas/farts, bad wind pain, rumbling, grumbling bowel noises, he’s a rescue that was feed a very poor diet & now has IBD & Skin & Food sensitivities…. Good Luck
*Canidae- http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products
*Sport Dog Elite Series- http://www.sportdogfood.com/dog-food/active-sporting/performance/
*Taste Of The Wild- http://www.tasteofthewild.com.au
*California Natural- http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products

[Courtney R]

So, I’m considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and I’m inwhat I’d call a “researching” phase. Did anyone else feel totally overwhelmed when starting this process or is that just me? Lol

Short background: I have a 60 lb ACD mix that is roughly 7 (Burke) and a 12 lb Pomchi that is 5 (Miles). They’ve been on Orijen for the past couple of years and so far as stools go it seems to agree with them. However, Burke has started getting lick granulomas roughly 2x per year, Miles chronically seems “yeasty”, they’ve both had UTIs this year and we got fleas for the first time ever this summer which has been an utter nightmare. My vet of course gave antibiotics for the UTIs but seems to not be concerned about the other stuff. But to me it seems their immune systems aren’t up to snuff and diets the easiest way at it.

Currently I have 3 questions which might seem totally unrelated:
#1. Should I have a blood panel done prior to starting raw just to be certain there isn’t any reason why it’d be unhealthy to switch them to raw? Seeing as they’re both having issues I’m doubting that would be the case, but I’m a worrier 😉

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

#3. They already get coconut oil, yogurt or kefir, salmon oil and digestive enzymes. Could I continue these through the transition or should I hold off and give their stomachs time to adjust to raw food? Also, any supplements that they absolutely NEED to have or is this kind of just up to me?

Sorry this wasn’t as short as I’d hoped but thanks so much for any help. This forum has already been a big assistance and I can’t wait to learn more from you guys!

[Ritchy]

Thank you both for the input!

Just thought I’d respond with the path we have decided on for now.

We are going with a mix using nature’s variety. We are doing 25% raw/75% kibble currently and eventually moving to a 50/50 mix. (I am so new to this, I’m not ready to jump into managing nutrient content on my own…probably too lazy/busy to ever get there 🙂 )

This will give us some raw in the diet from what seems to be a really good company.

I REALLY like their feeding guidelines calculator on their website. I was able to enter the weight of each of our dogs and if they needed to maintain or lose a few pounds, the mix and food selections and get an exact feeding guideline.

We are almost a week in now and I can already report a couple of good indicators:
– The dogs love it; they eat way too fast now.
– Their hair is already noticeably softer!

[Ritchy]

HoundMusic – I’d like to say thank you for your post. I am really new to raw, so this is very helpful.

…I’ve got to figure out how to update my avatar with my dogs image 🙂

[Anonymous]

My angel dog had cushings and I fed her venison with no grain, but also feed her frozen raw chicken dog food.

I was part of a cushings forum called K9Cushings they were my life line to getting through understanding everything that came along with the disease.

Good luck!

JP

[Philip L. P]

Milk Bones? Bad for your dogs, are you all freakin kidding me!

I don’t feed my dogs any form of dog food, I’ve moved the plants that make this stuff and I can guarantee you you’ll never see a filthier place! That my friends goes for those of the better brands also! Wouldn’t feed my dogs a Raw diet either… fresh, cooked, and frozen human food. As to the Milk Bones that’s a whole different story… I heard story’s about the video and claims that are supposed to state scientific fact that Milk Bones are bad for your dogs… and it all has been debunked as hogwash! There’s never been any such scientific study done on any of that. Not saying it is anything other than what it is meant to be ie.. a treat, treats aren’t supposed to be necessarily healthy same as candy for kids, liquor for adults, or drugs for addicts. But when it comes to Milk Bones you won’t find a better bone for your dog to chew on, or one that will keep your dogs teeth and breath clean. They aren’t supposed to be a meal, or even a supplement… they are supposed to be a treat and one that keeps the dogs teeth in good order. That has always worked for me, none of my dogs have ever had cavity’s, broken teeth, or even yellow teeth even in old age. Milk Bones have been around for over a hundred years and made in the USA. Keep giving your dogs those Nalgene bones and keep taking your dogs to the vets for dental work… as to the use of preservatives of any kind, use common sense in judging the produce, you can’t get away from their use completely. Some of you people take this stuff way too far! I get a kick out of hearing how well you all feed and take care of your dogs and cats, and then leave them play by them selves with toys that were made in china, let them alone out in the yard that has been sprayed with lawn and garden insecticides, fertilizers, and poisonous plants, animals take in more toxins than they’d ever get from Milk Bones from just being in your home. Crap think of all the stuff you all just use on your carpets, cleaners that you use on your floors, ant and roach killers that you use under your counters. You all are taking this healthier food stuff way too far sometimes, hell a couple hot dogs are better than no food at all. Give them love, companionship, a place to live, food and medical care when they need it and most times they’ll live to a good old age. Do what you can afford for your animals, its better than them being out on the streets on their own.

[anonymously]

Because, different diets and foods agree with different dogs. There is no one perfect food for all dogs. Raw is not worth the risk, in my opinion.
Be glad your friend has found a food that his dogs appear to be doing well on.
Hope this helps:

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes

[Denise G]

$20 off all top brand name pets foods at Protein for Pets. All natural, raw and organic foods. Use promo code #272262 when ordering. Free shipping with min. order