[Annie J]

Pancreatitis can be a pretty severe disease and can ultimately end a dog’s life, so now is not the time to experiment. A dog with panc needs to be restricted to a low-fat diet, at least until the pancreatitis has resolved. If Patchy doesn’t like canned food then try the dry versions of the low-fat diets (Hill’s I/D low-fat, GI low fat Royal Canin, Purina EN, etc). Pancreatitis can be the primary problem from dietary indiscretion (“garbage gut”, table scraps, bacon, etc) or secondary to another disease so if it’s not from her eating weird things then resolve the panc first then have her reassessed. Definitely avoid raw food, at least until her panc is taken care of- there are a plethora of pathogens in raw diets so don’t give her body anything else to fight off at this point in time. If you want to do raw in the future just make sure it is “AAFCO” approved on the label and sear the raw meat for a few secs before giving it (studies show it reduces the infectious bugs considerably). This certainly wouldn’t take care of toxo or parasites, just enteric bacteria. My friend’s dog got incredibly sick while eating raw food and when she was hospitalized they had to keep her in isolation (addtl $$$$$) until her antibiotic treatment was long enough for her to stop shedding salmonella. Cod liver oil in the future is a good source of omega-3s but is fatty so definitely not for a dog trying to overcome pancreatitis. Digestive enzymes are really only needed if they have a different pancreas-related disease (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency) so if Patchy can make her own enzymes no need to feed her another animal’s. Sounds like your vet provided good advice and since they assessed Patchy’s overall condition I’m sure they’d be happy to give you guidance about how you want to manage her condition 🙂 hang in there Patchy! lay off the fatty foods

[Pakalolo]

Thanks, Martha G. I’ll certainly keep that in mind. He loves eggs, but now that we seem to have nailed it with the raw duck, we don’t want to give him anything else. Having said that, I could try adding the egg to the raw food (without cooking the patties) and see if he accepts it. Thanks for the valuable suggestion!

[FrostHollow]

“Lowering the protein seems to help as well, and that is not something that can be achieved on a species inappropriate raw diet.”

That’s actually one of the factors I’m looking into.

All the brands that seemed to have the longest lived dogs were between 19-21% protein, which I thought stood out because it was unusually low by today’s standards. Compared to the supposedly higher end brands that average 25-35% protein, I had to wonder if, even though they might use lower quality source ingredients, that was less important in the long run than moderating the protein.

I even noticed that with brands like Purina, dogs were shorter lived on Pro Plan then they were on plain ol’ Dog Chow, even though one is higher quality, more nutrient dense, and they both have the same research & development behind them. Dog Chow is 21% compared to PP’s 26%.

Now, from raw to holistic, expensive kibbles, one thing that has always remained consistent with my dogs is that I’ve gravitated towards higher protein foods, 26-28% on average, higher for in whelp bitches or champions being specialed. My dogs are plagued by the Big C, and my research into the correlation between protein & longevity suggests it can be a factor in triggering certain types of cancer.

Food for thought, anyway.

[HoundMusic]

“Maggie the oldest dog in the world” she lived till she was 30yrs old & just died last year, she was feed a raw diet from the day she left her mum

Um… that dog was NOT fed a raw diet. There was an Australian dog, either her or another recent one that made it to a similar age, that was given kangaroo and emu (?) meat, but the owner never makes any mention of it being fed raw. And I have no doubt whatsoever that did not comprise the entirety of the diet, but was rather given as a nutritious supplement. Because no dog can survive on a diet of straight meat for very long. Take a good look at one of the pics in the following article about Maggie. She can be seen eating what appears to be round, artificially colored kibble pieces.

World’s Oldest Dog Dies Peacefully At Age 30

There was also a dog in the upper 20’s who was fed a vegetarian diet, and one I think who was also pushing 30 who ate nothing but :::drumroll::: Kibbles N’ Bits. I think the common factor in all the oldest dog cases were a combination of genetics, fresh air/exercise, and a satisfaction with their life. Lowering the protein seems to help as well, and that is not something that can be achieved on a species inappropriate raw diet.

https://www.elsevier.com/connect/controlling-protein-intake-may-be-key-to-longevity

[Martha G]

OMG!!! This is awful! I was reticent about going to raw food for my fur baby, but this decides it! Bad enough things have happened with the USDA looking over the producers shoulders, but now it’s open season on our pet food supply!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Martha G.

[Martha G]

As long as it’s not overcooked with that “charcoaled edge” look we humans like so much, metabolically should remain nearly identical in the dog’s digestive system. After all, they use hydrochloric acid as a digestive juice, so a little heat denaturing shouldn’t affect the quality. I, too, cook my raw diet if it includes chicken as I’m so concerned about its handling before I get it. I’m sure you’ve already tried this, but just to double check – any luck with eggs?
Hope Pakalolo continues a healthy recovery. Also, have heard from our group of great results with bone broth.

[Susan]

Hi, do you follow Rodney Habib on his Face book page?? he has over 1 million viewers, he’s trying to work out the same question you ask, at the moment he’s trying to find the best foods to feed dogs with cancer, google one of his video on “Maggie the oldest dog in the world” she lived till she was 30yrs old & just died last year, she was feed a raw diet from the day she left her mum, she lived Melbourne Australia on a dairy farm & worked everyday running 20km a day hearding the cows every morning & bringing them back of an afternoon, she drank 1 cup of fresh milk straight from the cow 6am, ate dead baby cows when they were born dead & ate the baby cow placenta’s… the video is a beautiful video with Maggies dad talking to Rodney about Maggies life….also she wasn’t over vaccinated, she just had her puppy vaccinations & that’s was it, she was desexed at 14yrs old when she feel pregnant after one of the new farm hand brought his dog with him..

[HoundMusic]

A lot of these things have a genetic component, the puppy mills and backyard breeders that continue to breed dogs even when they are aware of hereditary disorders, doesn’t help

To an extent, yes, but environment plays a more drastic role, IMHO.

For instance, I lost a gorgeous show CH male Beagle at 10yrs from a line of extremely healthy, long lived hounds who averaged 16 years. Not long after I bought him @ 5yrs, he had a focal seizure. Nothing I had seen before purchasing this dog indicated anything of the sort was in the bloodline, and when I questioned his former handler and owners of littermates, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., no light could be shed on the problem. The seizure he had with me was apparently his first and only. A dog that seizes at such a late age either has been in contact w/ environmental contaminants, has been poisoned, has an underlying health issue such as a tumor or Cushings, or is being exposed to something in the food either directly or indirectly causing the issue.

Lo and behold, this dog’s littermate sister also had the occasional “hypoglycemic fit”. She was also the only other dog of about a dozen or so relatives that also ate raw. P.S., I have had, on two other occasions, have dogs with violent seizures immediately after starting the raw diet, when ideopathic epilepsy was unheard of in the bloodline.

Genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.

To answer the OP’s question:

My youngest dog was a 4yr old GSD euthanized due to complications from degenerative myelopathy. At the time of death, however, she had been on Eukanuba dry/canned foods, and died about 2-3 months before their massive melamine recall. A friend of mine with 3 retired police S&R dogs who also fed Euk dry was experiencing the same symptoms as I was with all my dogs. So yes, I believe in this instance, diet contributed to her early death.

My oldest, incidentally, was a 15yr old black GSD mix who also died of degenerative myelopathy, after battling it for three years. He was switched back to raw after I first noticed symptoms, and made some major improvements in overall health and mobility afterwards. He was NEVER paralyzed. He was treated homeopathically with green tea and ginkgo biloba, and did better than most dogs on conventional meds who’d had the disease half the time. He did “go down” 48hrs before we made the decision to euthanize, but he walked, with assistance, the six blocks to our vet. I will be damned to Hell if diet did not prolong and increase the quality of his life.

And yet, 100% raw + Beagles = inevitable catastrophe. And it fed my Beagle bitch’s mammary tumor like I’d thrown gasoline on a fire.

[FrostHollow]

To give some background on myself, I’ve been a breeder/handler of show champion English Cocker Spaniels for about 17 years, and have owned the breed since the mid 90’s. Currently, I’m retired from the show ring, with no aspirations of getting back into it. We are left with seven dogs now, after spending the past 18 months losing the older ones left, right and sideways, mostly to various forms of cancer. The most recent death was Sandy, a 13 year old champion bitch who passed away last week.

After about 23 years in the breed, she was the oldest Cocker Spaniel I’ve ever had.

Average age of death for my dogs has been 10-12 years, which is below the breed average, while several breeder friends have dogs in their kennels that routinely live to be 14-16+ years. Insult to injury, they normally feed Pro Plan, or something along those lines. Whereas I am <i>very</i> conscientious about proper diet (I feed raw), husbandry and vaccinating minimally; but considering that most of my dogs have died below the breed’s average lifespan, I begin to wonder if I am somehow doing something wrong.

Only days after Sandy’s death, I’ve already had several dog park and local encounters with dog owners of very old dogs, only to learn they were being fed a steady diet of the worst the grocery store has to offer. At first I began to think there might be little to no correlation between diet & longevity, but that refutes much of what I’ve seen in regards to dogs in poor grade health recovering on a better quality, especially homemade, diets. Then I began to formulate a few theories, two in particular, that might explain why those other dogs were so long lived while mine tend to die earlier – and neither theory has anything to do with the actual brand of feed.

While it’s not very scientific, I’d like to test those theories by asking other dog owners how old were your longest AND shortest lived dogs, and what was the main diet of those dogs? Working on a spreadsheet, and if I get enough replies, I’ll share my theories as to what might contribute to longevity in dogs (which, upon research, seems to have some credibility) and the final results of my polling.

I’ll start off the thread by answering my own question:

Youngest dog: 3yo Corgi bitch euthanized due to genetic disc problems. Fed generic Dog Chow type feed before I purchased her, lived with me for 6 months and ate mostly home cooked, some raw.

Oldest Dog: 13yo Am. Cocker Spaniel bitch. Fed Science Diet for several years, raw fed since 2014. Died of systemic cancer.

[Stan C]

Request you take a look at Soul’yRaw http://www.soulyraw.com/main. They comply with the AAFCO standard and don’t use additives.

[Kelly B]

My dog and cats are fed 4Health brand food. My cats are doing great, their hair is so soft and shiny, We have very few hairballs at all. There is very little poo waste.

My senior dog Boo was getting Mast cell tumors, with the switch to 4health and added boiled chicken on top his last 2 hard mast cell tumors shrunk down and disappeared. he still has and gets fatty ones but he is 14 years old.

I have had problems with very expensive foods when another dog left with my ex husband had skin problems that got worse trying all the great expensive food. What cleared that up was when Bear and Boo got put on a raw diet for 8 months.

Boo and the cats have done really well on 4Health for the past few years and I do not ever plan to feed another kind of food to my cats or any other dog I may get.

[Tracy D]

Hi there, I am new to this forum. My dog Patchy has just been diagnosed (sort of) with pancreatitis and my vet told me I would have to take her off her raw beef mince diet. She advised a canned dog food with minimum fat as it is the only way they can monitor her as they “know” how much fat is on the food. Fair enough I can see the wisdom in that but…all I have read is that a raw food diet is the answer to sickness and she been raised on that. I really do not care for canned food and nor does Patchy. Naturally if at the end of the day the vet’s advice is the only answer then i will have to do that but I don’t feel this is good enough. So I have a few questions for the group if you could be good enough to help me with this:
Would raw kangaroo with low fat content be a good choice?
If so and as they are not farmed but eat wild, then how would I know how clean the meat is from parasites and toxoplasmosis, not to mention any other scary things that I don’t know about?
Could a high quality Cod Liver Oil help her general health? Not that she is otherwise unhealthy but quite the opposite.
I read here that animal sourced digestive enzymes can help, does anyone know a good one?
Many thanks to you all

[theal]

I came to this discussion in my search for a quality grain-free fish-based dry food but it raised even more questions.

Specifically I have a question for GSDsForever.
Can you please explain why you say “Orijen’s 6 Fish formula has a pretty poor overall dry matter digestibility”? I looked at the ingredients list and I don’t see any red flags.

Also, Wellness Core Ocean has a very low Omega-3 content for fish-based food; only 0.8% even though it has Canola Oil and Flaxseed Omega-3 fillers.
Orijen has 2.2% Omega-3 with no additional Omega-3 supplements.
Should this lead to conclusion that Wellness Ocean uses less fish and/or lower quality of fish that was de-oiled?
Low percentage of Omega-3 can also be found in these well-reviewed fish products: Hi-Tek Naturals Grain Free Alaskan Fish, Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch Grain-Free Natural Dry and Merrick Backcountry Raw Infused Pacific Catch Recipe.

With a current fish over-harvesting and fish prices going through the roof, food processing companies seem to compromise on fish quality to keep product price lower.
So I wonder if I should go with a quality meat-based feed and to use a fish-oil supplement instead.

[Christine S]

“I thought the OP was posting a cautionary tale to warn others about the dangers regarding raw diets.”

Absolutely not. Raw feeding had nothing to do with my dog’s blockage, either the first time or this time. This last time was the previous surgeon’s fault.

[anonymous]

I thought the OP was posting a cautionary tale to warn others about the dangers regarding raw diets. I had no idea that she would want to continue this practice, especially after what her veterinarian advised.
PS: I have tried raw diets, supplements etc. No thank you!

[pitlove]

Hi Christine-

I can’t speak for the others, but I personally thought you were asking for advice on what would be best for your pet after a major surgery, not for confirmation that you should continue feeding raw after advised not to by your vet. Clearly you had made your decision before even posting here. Best of luck!

[Catherine W]

Long background story:
I have a 2 year old Bernese mountain dog who never had great stools from when we got her. She was on blue buffalo and we always had issues, especially between new bags. But last may we had to evacuate our home from a fire and we ultimately moved, then had a new baby in September, and her stools have just been on and off ever since. They were good in July/Aug on Kirkland salmon but then a mess after new baby and my husband wanted to change foods at the same time to Kirkland turkey because of bad fish breath. Well since September she hasn’t been on 100% kibble, started with a blend of rice/boiled meat/kibble, but the rice started to go right through her so we tried oatmeal. Now she’s on an oatmeal/kibble blend. I supplement with carrots, and a probiotic, and recently I’ve been giving her a multivitamin because I’m concerned. In December I managed to get to 70:30 kibble to oatmeal ratio with great stool then explosive diarrhea for days. Basically it’s been the worst since May, midnight outings every 2 hrs. Oh and I took her to the vet in December who did a deworming and stool sample and put her on Hills prescription w/d canned which made her constipated and bleed, which we then blended back to kibble which didn’t work. I’ve tried adding pumpkin and bran buds (vet recommended) but it’s hit and miss.
Last week I researched all sorts of dog foods and decided on Hills large breed light because of the high fiber and low fat content. She can’t eat anything fatty, raw bones just cause diarrhea, and never gets meat scraps because they just cause upset.

Basically I’m wondering if I’ve tried it all and my dog is just destroyed inside and is hopeless. Thanks.

• This topic was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Catherine W.

[Christine S]

No, I believed this subforum under the umbrella of a general dog food forum was for discussing raw food diets and therefore might contain some members skilled and experienced in raw and homemade diets. I figured those uninterested or inexperienced with raw/organic/homemade diets would not bother commenting, but, this is the internet. thanks for everybody’s helpful suggestions, i’ve opted to go with the advice of my nutritional mentor. she wrote a blog post about it here in case anyone also finds it useful:

https://sfraw.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/qa-recomendations-for-healing-after-major-abdominalintestinal-surgery/

[pitlove]

Hi InkedMarie-

I can only assume based on context that the OP believed this forum in its entirety was devoted to raw feeding since she was surprised as to having been met with opposition from those of us who do not feed raw. That or she misunderstood that all members of this forum can post in the raw feeding section regardless of if they feed raw or not.

[InkedMarie]

PitLuv,
The op IS posting in the raw food subforum here.

[Suzanne F]

I used to feed raw, but now I feed canned only. For now it’s Wild Calling rotational diet Bison, alligator and rabbit. Wild calling is like 92% protein and no carbs. He eats sweet potato or yams and dehydrated pumpkin & cranberry by Diggin FirmUp on occasion. He’s not a fan of canned pumpkin. The doctor did a blood test to test for allergies and I did Dr Dods saliva test to test for food intolerances. He has many of both. Since I’ve made the changes he’s more willing to eat and less reflux. Also switch between Apple cider vinegar powder capsules and Zantac 150 mugs 2 times a day, ProPlan FortiFlora probiotics once a day. I feed him 3 times a day and a snack before bed. The empty stomach can make him throw up bile or or a white foam. Hope this helps. If you have any suggestions I’m all ears.

[Susan]

Hi Christine, yes you would be stressing out, I know I would be… sometimes a dog just can’t eat a raw diet, a dog needs to be healthy with a healthy gut/bowel & not have a compromised immune system to be feed a raw diet, I have a boy with IBD & I went thru a Naturopath to put Patch on a raw diet, I had to add digestive enzymes, a probiotic & a supplement to the raw also I couldn’t add any bone or organ meats to the diet, I added the supplement that replaced the bone & muscle meat until we slowly introduce everything to his diet…..The raw diet didn’t work out for my boy, he kept regurgitating up digested raw meat & water kept coming back up into mouth 20mins after eating causing bad acid reflux..
Maybe look for good Animal Nutritionist & she can make up a few balanced cooked meals for him that are very easy to digest, here’s the link for “Balance It” click on the “Click on” link, you fill out the quick 40 sec form asking what are your dogs health problems but if your dog has too many health problems more then 2 health problems you have to contact Balance It & one of the vet Nutritionist makes up a special diet for your dog….this way he’s eating a proper balanced cooked diet…
https://secure.balanceit.com/
For now feed the vet diet till you work out what you want to do, is the vet diet dry (kibble) or wet (Tin food)???
Have a look at “Wysong” here’s their link & contact them ask about their Epigen starch free diets in the wet tin foods there’s organic chicken, Rabbit, turkey, duck, salmon & beef these diet would have better ingredients then the vet diets have you may feel better feeding them… http://www.wysong.net/epigen-canned

[pitlove]

Hi Christine-

This is not a raw feeding forum. Yes, there are raw feeders who post here, but this website is not dedicated to raw feeding and many of us here do not feed raw.

Your dog just went through a serious intestional surgery and at least until you know he/she is stable, I would use the theraputic diet as recommended and then perhaps in time, discuss crazy4cats suggestion of BalanceIt.com with your vet.

[Christine S]

but the VCA did not give me an order for prescription food, the tech just said to feed either of those two brands, and that homemade diets were bad. i thought this was a raw dog food forum? i don’t want to feed junk with questionable meat sources, or anything i wouldn’t eat myself. i am able to source local grass fed organic meats without additives or fillers and have worked with a raw food nutritionist in the past so feel confident the meals i make are nutritionally complete, but i was curious if someone could recommend something similar to a highly digestible prescription diet that doesn’t use crap meat in it.

[anonymous]

The vet tech can’t make any recommendations without the veterinarian’s approval, the veterinarian is the one that signs the order for the prescription food.
The veterinarian probably told the vet tech to discuss the diet issues/prescription food with you after consulting with the surgeon. The vet tech can’t prescribe anything.

Your own words: “the vet said that i can no longer feed raw or homemade foods because i can’t possibly “give him all the nutrition a prescription diet can.” she wants me to feed either hill’s prescription i/d or royal canin gastrointestinal high energy, because he needs somethign highly digestible with easily absorbable nutrients that he can digest and absorb quickly in his upper gut since most of his intestines are gone.”

PS: You might want to leave a message for the vet to call you when she has a minute to clarify the diet recommendations. I’m not sure you realize the gravity of the situation.
Best of luck.

[Stephanie S]

My lab/golden has IBD. We’ve been trying for a year and a half to find a food that doesn’t cause vomiting or diarrhea. Through trial and error we’ve figured out she needs very low fat, very low fiber, no white or sweet potatoes, and no kibble. Our latest experiment has been with Sojo’s original pre-mix with cooked chicken breast (I’m afraid to feed raw meat to a dog with a compromised immune system.) The first three days she loved it and her stools were firm. Then she threw up but it looked like just the chicken so we wrote it off as a fluke and persevered. Now she doesn’t want to eat the Sojo’s – she tries to pick the chicken out. She hasn’t thrown up in two days and her stools are still excellent. She behaved the same way with Honest Kitchen and Grandma Lucy’s. Meanwhile we’ve tried several canned foods that she will eat enthusiastically despite the gas and cow patty stools they cause. Does anyone have any idea why these mixes might not sit right with her, despite the good output? I’m soaking the Sojo’s overnight. Our vet has no idea why she stops eating it. Also wondering if the oats, etc., in the Sojo’s are cooked – they don’t look it, so might it be causing bloat

[Christine S]

hi everybody-

new here and in a bit of a panic. i’ve been feeding raw to all my pets for over a decade with no issues. sadly, my 8-year old siberian husky has had issues eating things he’s not supposed to. he had a blockage where they needed to remove 30 inches of his intestine. because of stricture from that surgery, they just needed to removed 8 more. the vet said that i can no longer feed raw or homemade foods because i can’t possibly “give him all the nutrition a prescription diet can.” she wants me to feed either hill’s prescription i/d or royal canin gastrointestinal high energy, because he needs somethign highly digestible with easily absorbable nutrients that he can digest and absorb quickly in his upper gut since most of his intestines are gone.

the ingredient list in both of these scare me. i tried to at least find something comparable in a natural or organic form, but none of the major natural food companies seem to have prescription lines.

what do you think? should i just feed this presciption diet? any other recommendations? my boy needs to put on weight fast!

thank you,
christine

[elaine c]

Have you tried ANSWERS Pet Food? look it up… it is all fermented and GREAT for dogs that have stomach issues… My little Pittie, Lucy was throwing up blood and pooping blood, I changed over to this food and she doesn’t even have gas anymore!! I was told that gas really is not a good. It means the food is not good.. I don’t mean spoiled, I mean not quality. Answers is raw.. I LOVE LOVE it ans would never use anything else. It comes in 4 different meats. google it, go to dogfoodadvisor.com.. It is national. Best of luck!!
Elaine

[Andy B]

My guess is it is nominal…We don’t eat our meat raw so as not to lose nutritional value..I give my 3 dogs chicken breast in addition to their regular food and I always cook it..Just sayin’..

[Pakalolo]

My Bouvier has eosinophilia, IBD, slow stomach mobility, and… you name it. We’ve finally seem to have hit the gold pot with raw duck. We’ve been giving him the Pet4Life brand. However, he rejects it when it’s cold, so if I fry it like a burger (no oil), he will eat it fine. I know, I’ve spoiled him, but he’s had so many health issues that now I will try anything to see him eat. My concern is about the amount of nutrients that we lose in the heating process. My vet’s assistant tells me it is not that much (and yes, the most important is that he’s eating), but still… I just don’t want to be giving him “empty calories”. What’s your experience? Any words of advice? Thank you!

[Bobby dog]

You’re welcome. 😉

I mainly feed budget friendly kibble and canned. Along with those foods I also feed home cooked and commercial raw if you would like some other type of food options.

[pitlove]

Hi Blake-

Firstly, congrats on the Ridgeback puppy. They are beautiful loyal dogs!

I do think your concerns about exposing the younger members of your family to Salmonella, E.coli, listeria and other pathogens is valid and justified. This is of great concern to the new arrival as his/her immune system will not be strong enough to withstand any exposure.

The second leering concern comes with the health and development of the puppy. Here is a great article written by holistic veterinary nutritionist Dr. Susan Wynn on large breed puppy growth, development and nutrition. She feeds and advocates for raw and home cooked diets, however not for growing puppies, let alone ones that will reach 50lbs+ at maturity.

Feeding large breed puppies

Consider what she has to say before deciding on this type of diet for your Ridgeback puppy. I would also consult your pediatrician about the risk of raw food to your young ones and see what he/she has to say.

[pitlove]

Hi Olivia-

I too, agree with what anon101 wrote. Now that some of the teeth have begun to decay it’s past the point of no return. Those teeth will likely need to be extracted to prevent more damage and infection. Also, periodontal disease can also lead to disease in other organs especially as they get older.

Raw bones, like many other methods of oral care do not reach the gum line of the pet and therefore can not reverse or prevent periodontal disease. Regular brushing and dentals (when suggested by your vet) are the best way to provide a proper oral health regime for your dogs.

And yes, I would absolutely be concerned about any hard bone cracking their teeth with the state they are in as you describe it.

[anonymous]

See above post “Switching to Raw Food (Teeth Question)”
Also: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+diet
Hope this helps.

“Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food”. (excerpt from:) https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

[anonymous]

I would schedule the dental cleanings asap, infection is painful and can lead to all kinds of medical issues. Then when they have recovered, I would gently brush their teeth daily. YouTube has some excellent how to videos.
Be aware that bones can result in GI blockage (even finely ground bone) and broken teeth, anything raw is potentially loaded with bacteria.
Per the search engine here:
/forums/topic/dog-not-digesting-bones-properly/
What more is there to test? Obviously the bones, even finely ground up bone material is causing potentially fatal stomach, colon and bowel obstructions.
/forums/topic/rectal-issues/
/forums/search/bone+obstruction/

Dogs are Still not Wolves: Human Feeding Practices Have Shaped the Dog Genome

PS: If the dog needs emergency surgery (not unusual) caused by these feeding habits, it will cost $$$ whether the surgery is successful or not.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm208365.htm?s_cid=w_c_PetHealth_cont_001
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/
/forums/search/bones+obstruction/
Hopes this helps

[olivia s]

I have two 9-year-old chihuahua-poodle mix dogs (Joy and Faith) who I want to switch to a raw diet. I’ve heard that raw bones can be great for a dog’s teeth, but both of them have pretty bad teeth already. Joy, however, has worse teeth than Faith. One of her back teeth is severely decaying and much of her teeth has visible plaque. Her breath (before taking recent measures) was foul and much more noticeable than Faith’s.

Currently, they are eating Freshpet refrigerated dog food and no kibble. About a week ago, I started adding a product called ProDen Plaque Off to their food and I rub ozonated olive oil on Joy’s teeth, which seems to be helping with her plaque and bad breath. Time will tell if the Plaque Off product works. I’m also thinking about brushing their teeth. When my mom took the dogs to the vet, the vet said that they need dental work. If that can’t be avoided, I would at least like to minimize the problem.

I am weary about feeding bones to my dogs, particularly Joy. Is it safe to give a dog with tooth decay raw bones? Meaning, is there a risk of cracking the tooth? I’m not even sure if they would chew them because of the condition of their teeth.

If I get dental work done on them, would it be better to give them raw bones after they get that done? Or does anyone have experience healing dog teeth with a raw diet or with any other remedy?

Thanks

[Blake P]

Hey everyone! We are hoping to bringing home a new member to our family soon. A Rhodesian Ridgeback puppy. I have been doing a ton of research as far as feeding raw foods once we get her home. I have a 4, almost 5 year old and a few months after the puppy is brought home will have a newborn in the house.

My concern is having raw food all over the place or the fact that the puppy may be licking us/household items and obviously her toys. Of course keeping everything clean in the kitchen and feeding the puppy outside are obvious ways to help but the saliva, etc. on things gives worries me.

Is this a misguided worry? What do you guys do to keep your minds at easy with the little ones in the house.

I have considered simply cooking the food but of course that eliminates the option of serving some raw bone and of course loss of nutrients once cooked.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Gloria K]

As I already stated I make my own broth of every kind even for myself. I use a couple of bone in skin on chicken breasts, some of them for about 40 minutes then remove the chicken and when it’s cool shred it, put it in small Ziploc snack bags and freeze. I top Mickey’s food with this chicken then pour about 1 tablespoon of broth and heat the whole thing. He’s only about 18 pounds so he doesn’t eat very much at each meal.
As a sidenote I mentally cannot give him raw food I don’t know why I just can’t. So I give him giblets, hearts, chopped up pork cutlets, lamb shoulder chops chopped up and simmer these items. I save the broth from all of the stuff in little jars that I save and use this for his food. They’re so much nutrition in this broth. It only takes 20 minutes to simmer and I do this once a month.

[Andrea O]

I have read in several places where it states that raw diets allow the dog to grow at the rate they’re naturally suppose to. Commercial dry dog foods have too many proteins, carbs and make the dogs grow too quickly which in turn causes serious structure issues in the dog like hip dysplasia for example. It’s a good thing he has slowed down. It’s just like the chickens they feed in feed lots, they over do the carbs, proteins, steroids etc to get them unnaturally big fast. Dry dog food works in same way with puppies. Check out Dr Karen Becker on facebook. She’s amazing and goes into great detail in her short videos about this. She also has a video out called Pet fooled, highly recommend.

[Andrea O]

I have a vet on my facebook that states dogs eat their own poop or other animals normally because they are lacking the digestive enzymes needed to break down foods they are fed. I’d highly suggest in trying a different diet for your dog or trying to implement one raw meal a day or even a week. Her name BTW is Karen Becker. She goes into detail in one of her recent post about dogs eating their own poo or others and reasons why. You may be able to also find these videos on YouTube. I am unsure if I can post the links to it here.

[Andrea O]

We brought home puppy on a Wednesday evening, I got puppy formula for first few days and did raw chicken breast ground up with some formula in it. She’s ate that for three days now. Tonight this is the formula I gave her and of course she devoured it.
She is a German Shepard and weights exactly 7lbs. I did not have my chicken livers, hearts, or gizzards completely thawed so she didn’t get those yet but will incorporate those tomrw.
Would just like everyone’s opinions and advice on this formulation and what I should adjust. This is BARF model diet, I do not want to do PMR at this time so please do not push this. Thanks for your time
0.15 oz of spinach
1.00 oz of green apple
1.60 oz of carrot
1.85 oz chicken wing meat
2.80 oz of blended chicken wing meat and bone
1 teaspoon grounded pumpkin seed(for parasite prevention)
1 teaspoon coconut oil
2 teaspoon plain non fat Greek yogurt
1 medium egg shell and all uncooked

I fed her half of this finished concoction which was around 4.8 oz and then the rest I put in fridge for tomrw morning feeding.

Thank u for reading and feedback 🙂

[Stephanie W]

I tried two small bags of the American made acana/orijen and that was the end of that.
Terrible stuff and Acana was my go-to brand for years.
I read on another forum that one member decided to call Me yucky game and fish. She asked how much fish from Kentucky people should eat and was told no more than six a YEAR. Clearly champion foods didn’t do their due diligence to make sure their ingredient quality stayed the same.

The only good that came from this is it is what lead me down the path towards home cooked food. My dogs are doing SO much better than they ever did on the best of kibbles.
I highly recommend home cooked or raw for those who have the time.
Dogaware.com is a great resource for dog diet and has a book review section so you can find dog food cookbooks that are actually made to meet NRC and/or AAFCO guidelines.

[Susie]

I am interested in this as well. I have a 10 yr old Chi also. I’ve been feeding him The Honest Kitchen Kindly base mix and adding boiled turkey. I have Zeal (fish) on order because I want to try variety. Mine has IBD (not sure which one as we haven’t done major testing) so I wanted something with good ingredients and nothing funky. It is really high in fiber which is why I’m wanting to try Thr fish. High fiber isn’t the best for IBD. Anyway, you may look into THK. I’ve fed several brands of frozen raw which they did well on but the canned foods we have tried didn’t go over so well. We hated Weruva and Zignature. Looking forward to what others recommended. As far as yours lacking energy, you may want to check her b12 level. Mine had a very low level and since supplementing he’s so much perkier and playful.

[Amanda D]

Awesome thank you so much! I don’t have my puppy yet, will be getting one this year, going to see some Mini Australian Shepherds tomorrow! I just want as much information as I can get a hold of 🙂 I forgot to ask about raw veggies. I regularly dog sit for a 8 yr old Border Collier who absolutely loves her raw veggies, and bananas. Baby carrots and green pepperscreen are Misty’s favorites, are fruits and veggies a safe treat? Taking the chew style into account of course. Also I seen a horrid video on FB recently about how rawhide are made, are their other busy chews that are safe?

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Amanda D.

[Acroyali]

Many people I know do one raw meal and one kibble meal per day, and have had no problems. Like Cannoli mentioned, know your dogs chewing style and choose appropriately. A good rule of thumb is to feed larger than (the dogs) head size to avoid them swallowing things whole. For a small/medium puppy, poultry necks and feet I would personally stay away from until they learn how to slow down and chew (things like oxtails scare me to high heaven).

[Cannoli]

Hi Amanda,

It is hard to advise whether thighs with bones or chicken feet or turkey necks are safe to feed your pup. In my opinion you need to analyze and train your pup first on how to eat these bones.

With my pup I stay away from small bones as he tends to be a gulper and when I was hand feeding him these type of bones he still had a tendency of gulping his food so I stayed away from any whole bones. No need to create a choking hazard.

Otherwise since the base of your diet is a puppy food there is nothing wrong with introducing your pup to these foods. Once your pup has stopped growing than it is safe from a nutritional perspective to experiment with more raw or home cooked foods.

But I must stress that you really need to pay attention to what type of an eater your pup is. If he is a gulper like mine than whole bones, regardless of whether they are soft or not, can create a choking hazard

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Cannoli.

[Amanda D]

As much as I would love to feed raw I don’t have the freezer space, nor the floor space for a chest freezer. However is it okay to give the occasional meal as raw or treats, like instead of a store bought dog bone, maybe a chickenbacks ,couple chicken thighs or a handful of feet or hearts, turkey necks, eggs.

I’m planning on feeding either Castor & Pollux Organix Puppy Recipe, or Fromm Gold Puppy both in kibble form.

If such items are okay, what is best to start a small to medium breed puppy on?

• This topic was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Amanda D. Reason: Forgot to say what I'm planning on feeding

[Acroyali]

Too much of a good thing (omega 3’s) can be bad. I would stick with fish oil, or small oily fish as you’re doing without worrying about getting too much into her system.

If you’re using capsules of oil, keep in mind oil can go rancid pretty quickly!

Is there a reason you’re feeding all, or mostly fish? If she can handle other types of meats, some grass fed beef would be great as the Omega 3 content blows the feedlot beef out of the water. Eggs, IME, are much loved and are a great skin and coat supporting addition. (A few of mine get them raw, others prefer them warmed in a skillet. They’re spoiled..!)

[Robin S]

Hello fellow distraught pet lovers and owners,

We bought two sibling basset hounds nearly a year ago and have been having this problem with BOTH of them on and off. Heart-wrenching for all of us.

I am a wannabee herbal and nutritional practitioner with our own family. Although we’ve taken the dogs to the vet, I’ve also done research and tried different herbal remedies.

Hoping our continued experience can help others as we continue to seek answers and comfort for our beloved pets.

Here it goes..

One, both our dogs take turns getting this. The male fairs worse than the female. We originally thought it was bloat and took the male to an animal emergency hospital, costing $600.00. They took x-rays that showed it WAS NOT bloat. We then took him to the vet and they did lab work and said their was a small amount of some kind of bacteria…forgot the name. He prescribed an anti-biotic for him. The female then got it and he prescribed one for her. They were both fine for awhile andthen it starts all over again. The antibiotic did not work as well for her. We’ve also tried de-wormers throughout.

So I started treating the symptoms. The interesting thing is even tho’ both of them get this, I have to use different herbs and protocols to effectively (if not temporarily) ease their pain and discomfort. All very interesting..

These are what I use:
For Paulette: 1/2 human ginger root capsule with her food helps her nausea. When we don’t do this her symptoms start up again. If she gets it full on I’ve been giving her Parasite Dr. from PetAlive. This calms her and also makes her sleepy. I’m hoping it also helps to cure her. She is currently non-symptomatic.
Baggins, the male is in a full symptomatic bout these past 4 days. Thought we’d try a store bought parasite medication. It has not worked as it had in the past. So, we’ve been treating the symptoms. This is what works for him:
Avena Sativa, oat straw helps to calm him down. Bromelain reduces the gas and bloat build up his gut. We have also skipped a feeding this time. He’s sleeping peacefully at the moment.
With his next feeding I will start the Parasite Cleanse that I also give to Paulette, continue the oat straw and bromelain and add marshmellow root. Marshmellow root coats and soothes the easophagus and stomach lining.

As we continue to try different things for our pets as well as pray for them, our family, especially me, has to learn to live with the symptoms. I have to know that this isn’t life threatening and so far they have always come out of it. We have started to confine them to just the kitchen when symptomatic as it is a small area, has linoleum instead of carpet and is easier to clean up vomit and anything else. Sometimes he’ll stop the licking/gulping and look at us and whine for a bit. When the symptoms die down a bit, we bring him and lay on the floor holding and petting him til he goes to sleep.

That is most of our story so far.
Looking for commonalities and patterns and lack thereof as well…
Both our dogs take turns getting this.
It seems cyclonic…every month to six weeks..
Changing food does not affect it…or does so temporarily..
We are not alone, as seen here and elsewhere on the web, this is a newer and undiagnosed canine disease or disorder. We’ve had dogs all our lives and have never experienced anything like this. I have friends whose dogs do this as well.

Hoping to learn from all of you and be another shoulder to lean on for support,
for our pets,
Robin

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by Robin S.

[Whitney L]

Hi,
You’re so good at all this, you have the luckiest dogs in the world! I just wish the dog food bags would read for dummies so I could have an easier time and not have to involve anything mathematical. I’m awful at it… my husband is the engineer, so I’ll have to turn that over to him. I’m going to have him review the sodium contents and variables because he’s usually the one stopping for food.

It sounds like the Fromm we’re feeding may be okay for my Crested, and I’ll have to get a canned version for the foster girl. Or maybe soak hers in water and see if she’ll eat it that way. She has quite the underbite and the wretched teeth, so the soft food gets stuck all in her teeth and mouth. When we were giving her canned food we would wipe it off her as best we could, but she would still proceed to rub her face all over the living room rug. We also can’t get in her mouth to wipe it out from in there. We’re due to have a baby in three days, so we are trying our darndest to keep stuff like that off the rug. The joys of doggies, haha! At least it builds immunity in kids, my 10yo son never gets sick.

Anyway, the vet that the foster girl initially saw was one that the rescue uses. As far as I know, he didn’t give food suggestions, and I know he did not prescribe Vetmedin since none came with her. I got her several weeks after she came into the rescue. I ended up taking her to another vet, also part of the rescue but a different vet’s office and location, and specifically asked for the Vetmedin. I also asked for the incurin and recurring clindomyacin to help her mouth from possible inflammation. That vet ended up giving her a shot of the lasix and enalapril to boost it up in her system, and upped the lasix. She’s peeing a lot more, and coughing a lot less, so I think things are helping! They did do xrays of the little foster when we were at the vet this past weekend, but they didn’t show us and I wouldn’t know what I was looking at anyway. Her prognosis was still not good, but she wants to see her back in two weeks to do bloodwork and make sure the difference in meds aren’t inadvertently interfering with anything.

I’ll have to look up the Vetri Cardio Canine you mentioned, as it sounds like good stuff.

So on top of just trying to be a good doggy mom for my little medical babes, and the fact that we have a baby due in three days, my Crested is now not feeling well. I took him to his vet on Tuesday, and the poor little guy had to suffer through getting his temp taken, a fecal, a blood draw, an x-ray (thankfully one scan gets all of him), a dosage of fluid injected under the skin, and then a shot for anti nausea/diarrhea. The good news from all that is that his heart and lungs are looking wonderful compared to a year ago, and the vet was happy that the meds are doing their job on him and his lasix doesn’t need increasing. Bad news was that they couldn’t really find anything going on. His bloodwork was mostly good except a few things creeping the wrong way due to him being a little dehydrated, and the vet wasn’t concerned so long as he stays hydrated.

He seemed to feel better Tuesday night, and now we’re back to him moping around, refusing even canned food, watermelon, etc., and today he threw up the little bit of watermelon he did eat about 10 hours ago. He did take a small poop yesterday, and I was hoping that would make him feel better. It looks like he’ll be going back if he’s not better by the morning, and he’ll likely be getting a Barium test to see if there’s a blockage somewhere. More not fun stuff because he HATES x-rays. I have to go in the back with them when he gets them because he will freak out and half kill himself from setting himself into a breathing episode, then he gets placed on oxygen. I nearly cried on Tuesday because I can’t stand next to the x-ray machine being pregnant, and he was so scared and crying so loud. I stood off to the side where I hoped he could see me and talked to him. I hate it. Fingers crossed he starts feeling better today. 🙁

I really appreciate all your knowledge and for taking the time to fill me in on everything since you’re way more experienced at this than I am. Thank you, thank you, thank you.