Generally duck is considered a fattier fowl – but it depends on what cuts of meat are being used. In the case of Darwin’s, the duck formula has less fat than the turkey – 22% in the duck and 27% in the turkey (dry matter basis). The increased shedding is probably detox – many dogs detox when switching from kibble to raw and shedding can be a sign.
I have been using Mercola enzymes for approx 3 months now and it has pancreatin in it. If there is another brand that you might think is better or has more in it that she could use please feel free to post it.
For now we are sticking with Turkey but before the Pancreatitis issue I spoke to Darwin’s about mixing in Duck and I recall the girl on the phone from Darwin’s said Duck is lower in fat? I was talking to a co-worker about it and she ordered her yorkie the turkey and she said it made her yorkie very sick but I would bet she did not do a slow transition. I asked her about trying Duck because her dog was on a duck kibble and she said Duck was too high in fat from what she read up on the different proteins??
Also something I noticed more of is that since we switched to Raw my Chihuahua that had the Pancreatitis has been dropping fur like crazy, shes a black short coat chihuahua. Last time that happened my vet said it was due to her missing something in her diet and so that is when we started food searching, we were using Azmira back then.
All dogs (even raw fed) should poop at least once a day. My dogs have been on raw for almost two years and all three poop once or twice a day. Hopefully her stool issues clear up once she gets uses to her new raw diet.
Do you supplement with digestive enzymes? Enzyme supplements that include pancreatin, in some cases, is believed to help reduce the risk of acute pancreatitis or control chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatin is comprised of the amylase, lipase and protease produced by the pancreas. The idea is that adding supplemental pancreatin to the diet of a pancreatitis prone dog will lessen the stress on the dog’s pancreas. Another option would be a pancreas glandular – most glandulars are derived from bovine sources so I’m not sure if that would trigger a sensitivity (I know you’re trying to stick to turkey for the time being). Just some things to consider.
It doesn’t have to be all white as long as it is lean turkey, dark meat has different fats than white meat and they have important nutrients in them too.
A recap. Gemma is almost ten, we got her in January. She came to us toothless. She was fed The Honest Kitchen with Darwin’s. Two or three weeks after we to her, she got “stopped up”. Had to go to vets where he got an enema. The Darwin’s had larger pieces of bone, we didn’t know exactly what caused the issue but we bought Bravo Balance that has smaller pieces.
I had grinds from Hare Today for the other dogs….in talking with Hare, she advised me that Gemma probably needs more meat. No more THK, we started adding some Hare to the Bravo.
She has trouble pooping, now she goes one little poop every other day. I realize that raw fed dogs don’t always go daily but I’m not anxious to repeat her being stopped again. I called Bravo, was told the Balance is 10% organ, 15% veggies….of the rest, 60% is meat and 40% is bone. Too much bone for Gemma. She’s off the Balance now, going on all Hare, both bone in and bone less.
Can’t just be easy, eh?
Thank you!! I am going to give it a shot and a slow transition. I wrote to Steve and he answered back very quickly and was very helpful so I am off to shop. Steve recommended that I feed as low in fat protein as possible to my one chihuahua that has Panceratitis and he also recommended sardines ( in water) not oil once a week or fish oil. He said I can feed veggies and fruits and probably should with my Pancreatitis girl. turkey is what we have been feeding so I imagine he means all white lean turkey.
All you need to add is meat and fish oil or tinned sardines. You can add extras (such as vegetables) but the extras are optional and should comprise no more than 20% of the meal. The volume would be similar to other raw foods – about 2% to 3% of the dog’s body weight.
I sure hope so Patty. I was looking at the Steve Browns website and it does not mention anything about adding extra veggies or fruits to the mix. Do you just add Raw or cooked Turkey to it and that is it? How do you know how much to feed at each meal? I looked throughout the website and may have missed it somewhere.
If she is eating the Darwin’s turkey now and doing fine, she may be fine with it. This is the time frame when she should be most likely to relapse. I would still look for something lower fat to at least alternate with.
Yes HDM Darwin’s did tell me that the fat levels were lower after we talked about my dogs Pancreatits issue. I am going to check out Steve Browns supplement and decide where to go from there.
Shelties Mom I give Mercola digestive enzymes at every meal and also probiotics and spirugreen superfood once a day. We started the Spirugreen 2 weeks ago and the Enzymes and probiotics about 3 months ago. I need a balance and possibly thinking of cooking the girls meat and adding in veggies but I know I need balance so I am out to search for that also. I have a product I ordered specifically for mixing with cooked or Raw mixture by Dr Jones and it is called Ultimate Canine Formula.
Thank you all. So far for the last 2 days she has had her Raw Darwin’s turkey meals and seems to be getting better but maybe thats because shes on Metronidazole. I am searching other avenues though.
Please disregard any typos – I’m having to post from my phone as I’m getting the boot from
the forums when I try to use my laptop.
Hi NectarMom –
If Darwin’s telling you the fat levels aren’t what I told you then they’re likely trying to give you the “unconverted” fat levels. To obtain the true fat level it’s necessary to convert the fat to a dry matter basis (same goes for protein) – to get an accurate representation of the nutrient values this is especially crucial for foods with high levels of moisture (raw and canned). Darwin’s general analysis states that the food has 7% fat, but the food is 74% water (this means the fat levels are much higher they’re just diluted by the water). To calculate you first need to determine the percentage of dry matter, we’ll do this by subtracting the wet matter from 100%: 100% – 74% moisture = 26% dry matter (this means that for every 100 g. food you feed 74 g. are water and 26 g. are actual food, this is why the fat levels appear lower than what they actually are on the general analysis). Next, we divide the “as fed” fat level provided on the general anlysis by the percentage of dry matter we just calculated: 7% fat/26% dry matter = 0.26923. We now want to convert this value to a percentage: 0.26923 X 100% = ~27% fat. This is the only accurate way to truly compare fat levels because for example, the fat levels for kibble are practically on a dry matter basis. Kibble is generally only 10% moisture so if the fat level is, say, 15% on an as fed basis the “true” fat level is 17% (doesn’t change much). I hope all that makes sense.
My question is this – did Darwin’s tell you the fat levels I stated were higher that what the actual fat levels after you told them your dog got pancreatitis? They should have a general analysis with all the nutrient values on a dry matter basis and to try and fool you into believing what I told you is not accurate – especially after when you have a dog with pancreatitis – tells me they’re either 1) clueless or 2) trying to be deceptive in an attempt to sell food. I’m not a fan of Darwin’s customer service so neither would surprise me.
I’m going to have to agree with Patty – use a pre-mix and make your own food using extra lean ground turkey. Steve Brown has a great balancer powder that’s specifically designed to balance the fats in poultry (seespotlivelonger.com).
Oh ok wow well that makes it very limited. I would definitely do turkey necks and wings. Another great place to order meat from is blue ridge beef. They have a great selection of meat for great prices
Backs are high fat and she can’t do chicken. But the idea is good, getting something like HK Preference and making food from fresh turkey may be the best way to go.
Nectar mom,
If I were you, I would go to the butcher, get some chicken backs and necks, turkey necks, any muscle meat on sale, and start from there. It is much cheaper than Darwin’s, and you can see exactly what is going into your dogs meals. It’s also a lot easier to tweak.
That is what I am afraid of with Darwin’s if the fat level is indeed what HDM has stated then to continue feeding it to my dog would only put her life in danger. Darwin’s tells me the fat is not as high as HDM said but at the same time I trust HDM advice too so this is why I am confused on what to do. I won’t be feeding the marrow bones ever again but I am stumped on the Darwin’s?
After pancreatitis, fat levels are a big factor in recurance.
Sleep hasn’t been my friend this week o I’m not comprehending. If the marrow bones caused the issue, why would you need to stop feeding Darwin’s? Just stop the bones; am I missing something?
You couldn’t have known that this would happen, so try not to be so hard on yourself. Yes, you can open the package, use part, and store the rest in the fridge for later.
I don’t know which way to turn now. Should I keep her on Raw from Darwin’s and only that or find a kibble that she can tolerate? I am pretty sure it was the marrow bone because before that she was fine the whole month on Raw turkey meals. The vet has her on Cerenia and Metronidazole and said she should feel better in a couple of days and she did eat this morning 1/4 Darwins and then this afternoon I gave her about 10 pieces of Brothers Allergy kibble but I don’t know if I should give her anymore or just let her system relax and give her some in the morning. If I open a 1/2lb package of Darwins if I don’t use it all right then can I put it in a baggy and use it later that evening? I just hate that I did this to her 🙁
That’s too bad NectarMom. Most dogs can tolerate very high levels of fat but they should be worked up to it slowly. Raw typically has much higher levels of fat than commercial food, so dogs should have their fat levels increased incrementally. Many raw meaty bones and recreational bones (especially marrow bones) are extremely high in fat and should be avoided until the dog is well acclimated to its new raw diet and higher levels of fat.
NectarMom, I’m sorry to hear that.
My one Chihuahua with intestinal allergies has mild Pancreatitis from the marrow bones. At least that is what the vet said it could very well be and Darwin’s also said it was more than likely the marrow bones since they told me the Raw turkey meals are 12% Protein and 6% Fat in a wet matter which Raw is and plus we have now been on the Raw for a solid month and no issues until the marrow bones so those who have dogs with intestinal issues just beware marrow bones are really high in fat.
Sorry, no help here as my pugs rarely get bathed but I thought a shiny coat came from “within”. I did notice though that when I added raw food and fish oil that my black one was softer and shinier. I get alot of dull black/rusty black fosters.
I would say that you are right about the BPA and they are deceptive or the person on the phone is pig ignorant. Which, unfortunately, is a real option. Before you start making your own food, make sure you do the research. An unbalanced raw food may be worse for your dog than a little PBA. The easiest way to get started is to buy one of the premixes that you just add meat to. That gives you time to research more, before you are completely making your own.
Thank for the information.
Thanks HDM. I’m been wanting to reconcile my supplements! Seems I’ve got too many! I’ve been thinking of some whole food vits too. I’ve started using Garden of Life Raw Meal and it’s a bunch of sprouted grains/nuts/seeds, probiotics, enzymes, greens. I’ve been giving him 1 teaspoon with his meals. http://www.vitacost.com/garden-of-life-organic-raw-meal-vanilla-2-5-lbs
I’m also feeding him canned food and a little bit of kibble. When hubby feeds he just does kibble. He still gets around for his age! Still uses the doggy door!
My 3 pug mixes I have right – they’re a wee bit cra-cra!! Absolutely bonkers! I’d rather have a dozen old full pugs!
Sandy, marrow has a high level of fat but it also has other things that have protein in them and the bone itself has some protein in it. Darwin’s marrow bones are pretty well cleaned off but not completely cleaned off.
I give a whole food supplement, a supergreen, fish oil and vit E, and ACV with the mother. Plus occasionals like garlic, coconut oil, probiotics, that sort of thing.
Nectar mom, when I first started my Weimaraner on raw I gave him a lamb leg bone that was very fatty. At 2 am that night, he had gotten up twice throwing up fat and pieces of bone. Sometimes there is just too much fat. Are you new to raw? If so, your pups stomachs may have just not been ready to tolerate such a high fat level.
Blurose,
Usually 2-3% of your dog’s body weight per day and adjust for his activity level. I have small indoor dogs so they would eat just under 2% if they were just eating raw but they eat a variety of foods. Hounddogmom has a list of supplements she gives in the raw food menus thread I think. Maybe she will see this post and chime in. I do give a supergreen supplement and fish oil.
NectarMom,
Sorry to hear about the situation. I didn’t think that “fat” had proteins in it. So I’m not sure about an intolerance other than from the amount of fat itself. Maybe a limited amount of time with the marrow bones at first and then slowly let them have it for longer periods of time. If you think your dogs can’t have the marrow bones, you can get the marrow out by boiling and stuff the empty bones with something else so they can still gnaw on them – like yogurt or even stuff some of the Darwin’s turkey in there and refreeze so they have to work to get it out.
I an thinking about switching my 70 pound Golden Retriever to a raw food diet. How do you determine the amount of food to give each day? I am planning on using frozen raw with bone already incorporated. Also, would I need to add any supplements? Thank you for your help.
Marrow is very high in fat, so it could be that too. My JRT only gets the marrow bones after the other dogs have eaten most of the marrow. I usually give rib bones to her. I get mutton and goat ribs from Hare Today.
It was a beautiful day outside today and so I decided to lay out some dog pads and give the girls a Darwin’s Raw Marrow bone and 10 min after they were really into it Sally my tricolored chihuahua went across the yard and started throwing up so I took hers away and put it back up. The other three chewed on the marrow bone all excited and now 3hrs later runny poop everywhere and my one with intestinal allergies is bloated very bad 🙁 It looks to me we found the intestinal allergy protein to avoid with her. Just a few minutes a go (4hrs after the marrow bones) one of my other chihuahuas was in our bed and started heaving to throw up so I grabbed her and put her in the floor in time for her to throw up. It is looking like beef is not our best friend. Has anyone else had this issue? 3 out of the four of our dogs ate at least 1/2 the marrow out of the bone, did they maybe eat too much in one sitting? I know it seems I keep having issues with things introduced to my dogs but I am so frustrated with trying things that in some way keep back firing and causing my dogs more painful issues. They have no problem with the raw Darwin’s turkey meals so the only thing I can figure is that its because it is beef?
My dog with yeast, grain intolerance, and IBS issues got probiotics and enzymes with his raw and kibble until he was no longer showing symptoms for a while. Now he gets them a few times a week like the other dogs. I’m like Sandy, I feed whatever I grab out of the freezer. I do make a point of not putting the same stuff side by side in the freezer. My dogs get a different raw every day, but when I started, I fed beef for a week and then added in chicken, then turkey and pork. Now I feed about 8 different proteins, but I make sure I feed fish once a week, tripe once a week, and raw meaty bones two or three times a week.
You don’t have to add pro/zymes to raw food. I would just add it to the kibble meal. It looks like you serve a variety of kibble so alternating the raw flavors would seem to make sense as well. I use fish oil (not regularly) and hold it if giving sardines. I give various raw foods as well with no particular rotation. Whatever I grab out of the freezer is what they get!
Hi everyone!
I look here all the time – and have learned a lot…but I have a few questions.
I bought Bravo Balance chicken, Natures Variety beef patties and chicken patties.
The reason for two proteins ( chic.) is because it’s an hour drive…and its all she had.
Next time I’d like to get duck or something besides chicken.
Do I add probiotics and enzymes to the raw food? Will be feeding raw for breakfast and Fromms, Wellness , Earthborn kibble and NV canned along with eggs, sardines and such in evevings.
How do I rotate the raw foods. Bravo for a few days, then the beef then the chicken?
I was at health store and saw Enzymes from the NOW product. Should I buy that one?
Also saw Barleans omega 3 fish oil in sardine,macherel & anchovy. Should I buy that?
Please tell me what all I need to purchase.
Thanks!
When I decided to go grain free with my dogs I chose a food that was similar to what I was feeding but slightly better and switched to that then found another food that was slightly better and switched to that and then switched to the food that I really wanted. Sometimes a big jump in quality is hard for them to handle too.
Thanks for the advice I will look for good ingredients and not worry so much about the fat and try to transition him over to a grain free food and try some probiotics and enzymes
Does your dog have a problem that makes you limit fat other than gaining weight easily? As long as the fat % is no more than about 1/2 the protein % I wouldn’t consider the food to be high fat. Whether you need to take the fat level into account depends on how much of it you are feeding and if your dog has any health problems that limit the amount of fat he should get.
You say he does not do well on grain free foods. Some dogs that have been on the same food long term have trouble switching because their body has acclimated to the food that it has always had and they actually have to grow the normal gut bacteria back or in different proportions than what the old food would support. Many dogs need a little extra support during transition in the form of probiotics and digestive enzymes.
Ox tail is great and yes you can freeze it.
I know you don’t mean no disrespect Marie, I was trying to replace a can food that I did not like one ingredient in it and probably jumped the gun. I thought I was going about it slow which is why they only got 1 tsp each. I am not feeding kibble anymore but just wanted a little extra for the girls and that is the reason for the can food. I think what I will do is just do the raw twice a day and in between the feedings give them a marrow bone to chew on. Probably best if the least Variety right now I give them the better since they are so sensitive to change. We do transition slow so we don’t have that issue but from what Darwin’s told me a tsp of food is really not enough to make a dogs system react like that unless it just plain did not agree with them. I need to just stick to Raw. Thanks for your reply 🙂
We have been on Darwin’s since March 14th and just stopped the Brothers Allergy kibble about 3-4 days ago so my main concern is the acid reflux and I am trying to narrow that down. We were on Brothers for 8 months and itching did not stop nor yeasty smell on the skin and acid reflux and they would not eat the Brothers without can food mixed with it so really I have not switched foods a lot.
Thanks Sandy I will look there today. I was at Walmart yesterday and only saw Ox tail? I wasn’t sure about it so I didn’t get any but it was a great price for so many and they were the perfect size and I did not know if I could freeze them.
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NectarMom,
I found small marrow bones at Kroger. 1 inch to 1.5 inches in length and about 3 inches across.
I am looking to add more moisture to my dogs diet he’s been eating Natures Variety Prarie Dry he does not do well on grain free foods. I want to add canned to his diet or a premade raw for variety and a little more protein without all the extra fat. I cannot decipher these canned labels ( I try but am not very successful) I would like to have something in the mid-fat range hes a shih tzu and gains weight very easily. The canned food reviews Ive been looking at are 20% and higher do I need to worry about the fat levels if it is not his main diet ? Even the 4 star foods are really high in fat. Am I missing something, I would feed him canned all the time if I could figure out how not to turn him into a blimp in doing so I know canned/raw is a healthier option for him. Any advice to alleviate my confusion would be helpful Thanks
