[pugmomsandy]

The 80/10/10 numbers for raw feeding is an “average”. But what’s included in the average? Small whole animals whose bones can be consumed and larger animals whose bones cannot! For instance, let’s say a wolf eats mostly muscle/organs from a bison and hardly any of it’s bones because they’re too dense. Just have to keep in mind the phrase “balance over time” when feeding raw. But since you are going by a recipe, your food should end up mostly balanced than not! Liver should ideally be not more than 5%. Sometimes I add more muscle meat and sometimes I don’t. So sometimes my batch is around 30% bone and sometimes near 10%. I’m not exact all the time. I add heart, gizzard, tripe or muscle meat like thighs as additional “muscle meat” and have to do some algebra to figure it all out! For 5 lbs of whole chicken that’s around 30% bone, I can add up to 9.5 lbs of muscle and half a pound of additional liver to make it around 10% bone and around 5% liver. I haven’t seen (or looked for) bone content numbers for whole calf. I use preymodelraw.com for some figures on bone content. This is just what I do. http://preymodelraw.com/page/articles.html/_/raw-chat/common-cuts-a-photographic-guide-to-raw-meaty-r15

[USA]

Hi Karene

The term “not for human consumption” applies to ALL dog foods. It has nothing to do with the quality of the ingredients. The minute a food is labeled for dogs it is now “not for human consumption”

Foods like raw or green tripe and any food with ground bone are never allowed for human consumption. Foods like beef, chicken and salmon whether they are the highest quality and “human-grade people food” once they are labeled as dog food they are not for human consumption. It is a regulation thing.

Hope this helps

[DogFoodie]

What about The Honest Kitchen’s new base mix Kindly, to which, you add your own fresh meat? THK actually has six grain free recipes now. I’ve tried Farmina and liked it ~ I found it to be budget friendly as well. Nature’s Logic isn’t grain free as it contains the pseudo grain, millet; but, it’s a great food.

If you haven’t already, you could take a look at Susan Thixton’s site. There are several companies that have signed her “Pledge.” “The Pledge” is a manufacturer’s statement of quality and origin of ingredients. I cannot say for certain (without going through each brand on the list) that all of those who have signed The Pledge are China Free; however, there is a specific column on the document where the manufacturer must indicate whether or not China is the country of origin for each ingredient. There aren’t a lot of foods on the list. There aren’t many kibbles. Some of the foods are frozen, raw diets that can only be shipped to certain locations, etc.; but, it’s a place to start and if nothing else, it’s interesting.

This link is to The Pledge, specifically: http://associationfortruthinpetfood.com/the-pledge/

Here’s another link to Susan’s regular site: http://truthaboutpetfood.com/

[Akari_32]

Hey guys!

Thanks for clearing up that egg info, C4C. I knew it was something along the lines of preventing some nutrient from being used.

The hunt for the “perfect” premix is going terrible! LOL I like the price point of SSLL, but not knowing how to mix it (no instructions on the site that I could find), I can’t decide yet. I do have to narrowed down between that and Urban Wolf, though. These both look like the best options for Bentley. I didn’t like how either of Sojo’s premixes looked. Have you gotten your SSLL, C4C? I gotta find out how it’s prepared before I make a choice… Lol

I haven’t thought about if I’ll do all raw premix meals, or go between canned and raw premix. I’m not so sure I’ll do completely raw, either. I may par-cook the meat, just to brown it up on the outside, or whatever. Don’t really know yet.

I will look into those links, Bobby Dog, thanks 🙂

[Eric H]

Wow! Vigorous conversation!
I must say, I am never surprised by how passionate pet lovers are about their information and beliefs; I know we ALL strive to do the best we can for our beloved animals and any suggestion by anyone that we might not be doing it “perfectly” can be difficult to digest (pun-in-context intended…) I am confident we are all doing the best we can, which should always include being receptive to the input of others – not as insult or criticism, but as another option we may choose to consider and discard or adopt as we feel appropriate.

So having said that, thank you for the raft of input!!
LabsRawesome – Dehydrated fat free meats – I will look into that some more. You prompted some pretty animated discussion on that topic, I will check it out and see if it could apply to Otis.
somebodysme – Otis gets the following exercise: 1h walk/day, plus combination of some or all of: extended backyard ball chasing (loves chasing/returning a ball), repeated toy chasing inside including up/down stairs at times. He always seems satisfied and tired at the end of any of these, so we are hopeful he is getting enough of a total workout on a daily/weekly basis. Smaller treats is another option – at the moment he gets enough to let him chew for a few minutes (iei 1 baby carrot, 1 small flower stalk of cauliflower). Very food motivated, and would eat treats continuously until he passed out I think, regardless of size! ha.
Dori – High Carbs, yes we had no idea of the sugar/carb contents of *veggies* (foreign concept, thinking veggies were harmless as many human diet plans allow “unlimited fruits / veggies”. “oosp.” We got a USDA list of some 1,000 different foods, catalogued them by Sugar, Cal, and Fat and found a new short-list of options which include many of what you suggested, thanks! We will start by substituting his sweet potato with turnip for example and cutting back on carrots (still good for teeth…just less of them). Otis gets strictly 2 small formal meals per day, total 1cup per day + treats.
sue66b – Pancreatitis, IBD, and skin issues? Ouch! Poor guy. Our Otis had significant skin issues also (like crutsy awful human eczema patches) but disappeared when we switched foods! Very rare small flare-ups (likely from external contact sources) are treated with some polysporin ointment for 1 or 2 days and it goes away. Banana and rice cakes! Bananas might work but sugar is higher than the short-list I will be trying for now (12.2g/100g USDA), might try use banana as an occasional option. Tuna might be another option – I only scanned veggies and fruit, so I don’t have the tuna numbers, I will look that up, thanks!
aimee – Yes, we really thought we’d lose him before we found a safe diet…it was a pretty stressful time back then!! Your history suggestion is good, I think we’ll try to take note of just how many “treats” he is getting compared to 10% intake – when they are small bites you forget what they add up to over the day.

Thanks everyone for their contributions and continued pet-passion!
-e

[USA]

Hi aimee

You wrote:

“Experimentally compounds that mimic the hormone CCK result in pancreatitis. In these studies high amounts are given.”

From the book you referenced: “Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 2012”. Caps added by me:

“EXPERIMENTAL PANCREATITIS can be initiated by HYPERSTIMULATION with CCK ANALOGS (Morita et al. 1998; Saluja et al. 2007), BUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE MECHANISMS IN SPONTANEOUS DISEASE IS UNKNOWN.”

The book says they used CCK ANALOGS, NOT CCK and that HYPERSTIMULATION was induced. This is different than the CCK released during a high protein and/or high fat meal eaten by a dog! And the book also says “THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE MECHANISMS IN SPONTANEOUS DISEASE IS UNKNOWN.” So the book admits that they don’t know the importance of their findings for dogs who get pancreatitis in the real world and not from hyperstimulation of the pancreas with CCK analogs in the lab!

You also wrote:

“The most potent dietary stimulation of CCK is fat. Protein though also stimulates CCK release.”

What the book actually says is: (caps added by me)

In dogs, fatty acids (Sun et al. 1992), amino acids, and peptides stimulate CCK release, BUT INTACT PROTEINS DO NOT (Meyer and Kelly 1976).

What are the intact proteins the book references? Are they the proteins in a raw or lightly cooked fresh homemade diet of lean meats, poultry and fish?

[Susan]

THANK-YOU Aimee, my vet did exlpained why Patch cant have liver treats, but I was so stressed at the time & cant remember that day too well, yes Patch can’t have a high protein diet either..Aimee what are you feeding ur dog that has Pancreatitis, I’m running out of foods to try for breakfast…I thought I had found the Tuna & pumkin for his breakfast, he’s been on the tuna since June & was doing real well but now he’s having his pain again & whinging after his breakfast these last 2 weeks…if I give him his kibble for breakfast or boiled chicken breast & pumkin he has his pain, I dont know what to give for breakfast no more, Maybe Patch just cant eat breakfast, he seems fine after eating kibble for lunch & dinner…I was going to try Rolled oats..Vet did want me to try Prednisone but I’ve been trying everthing possible before I try him on the Steriods.. Patch also has bad stomach reflux & acid always burping after eating & I thought the steroids will make things worse….Ive read on the Yahoo group “Dogpancreatitis” a few dogs are doing really well on the Vet prescription diet Royal Canin Low Fat kibble as the fat% is 7%….. Patch is on Vet Diet Eukanuba Intestinal its 10% fat & about 1 month ago I started introducing the Wellness Simple Duck & Oatmeal kibble the fat is 11.98%, I’m adding 1/2 the Simple & 1/2 the Intestinal for lunch & dinner at the moment, maybe that has started Patches pain again…. I dont know no more…its an awful disease…
Eric if your reading, did you ever give Otis any cooked meats, I read that the raw didnt work, my vet said NO RAW, thats was 1 thing I can remember Lol….I mite look up the Hills I/d GI restore, I bet we dont have that one in Australia alot of the Hills foods were cut back

[aimee]

Hi Dori and LabsRawsome,

Experimentally compounds that mimic the hormone CCK result in pancreatitis. In these studies high amounts are given. The most potent dietary stimulation of CCK is fat. Protein though also stimulates CCK release.

From the table in Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 2012 on foods to avoid with chronic pancreatitis “Dry meat treats ( jerky)” The text also cautions against feeding diets very high in protein to patients with a history of pancreatitis.

Hope this helps explain why Patch doesn’t do well with jerky treats.

[Susan]

Labs & Dori, I dont think it was the amount of fat in the jerky, it was cause jerkys are hard & dont digest real good, Patch doesnt chew liver jerky & would just gulp them, then the jerky just sat in his stomach & was the final straw that put him in hospital..VET SAID NO MORE LIVER jerky…also gives him bad diarrhea…. Its was not RIDICULOUS Dori, my dog was in hospital for 2 days…. also I said MY boy can’t eat jerky I don’t see anything wrong with that comment, there was no need to be sarcastic Dori..

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Susan.

[Michelle D]

Wow, I totally meant Darwin’s. Should have reread better.
I will definitely talk to my vet about taking him off raw. I was just wondering because Darwin’s has a kidney diet now. Thanks

[Dori]

Wow Labs. You and I seem to be on the same page of late. Dried jerky meat absolutely cannot cause Pancreatitis. Seriously? As Judge Judy would say……RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!
.
On a completely different subject, the girls had their first meal of Victor’s Grain Free (Yukon–the only one that Katie can eat). Other than Katie having a gurgling stomach all seems well. I’m going to try feeding that in the a.m. and raw for their p.m. meals. It would be so great if they can actually eat a dry food. I haven’t gone anywhere since I put the dogs on raw food 2 1/2 years ago. I’ve become a slave to my girls. Not that I wasn’t before, but at least my husband or dog sitters or kennels would feed kibble, they won’t do raw. Truthfully, I wouldn’t trust them anyway. It would really be nice not to be a slave to their meal times. I’ll let you know how it goes on the Victor site.

[Pat G]

I have not heard of Dawson. I have used Darwin’s which I was very happy with. If your dog has kidney problems the protein may be to high in raw foods. I think Dog Food Advisor has a section of recommended dog foods for kidney problem. I took my dog off of raw because of pancreatitis.

[Michelle D]

I am interested in getting this raw diet. I have a few dogs and one has kidney issues. They offer a prescription section. Is this a high quality raw food ? Any issues or concerns.

[Eric H]

Hello – Long time lurker to this fantastic site and forum members, finally time to post and ask for input!

Our 10 second intros:
The Pooch: “Otis,” 25+lb, 7yr old happy active male neutered mini-Schnoodle (14.5″ withers) unfortunately with severe pancreas issues and epilepsy (controlled by daily phenobarbital).

The current food: 1/2c x 2 per day = 1 cup / day of Hills I/D GI Restore – the ONLY food we have found, after trying MANY options including raw and alternative pancreas-safe home-brews, which doesn’t send him to the hospital for 24-48hrs at $500+ a crack. Ouch. We actually thought he would die before we found something he could eat. This is the *only* food so far which has kept him out of the hospital >1yr and counting! [knock on wood]. Note this is about HALF his recommended amount, as we were previously already trying to keep his weight down – it isn’t working!

The current treats: Carrots and Cauliflower (can’t eat fat, remember?), Watermelon, dried sweet-potato/yam slices. He gets his pill (twice a day) in a small cube of cooked sweet potato which works out to 1 full sweet potato per week. That’s about it.

Ok. So.
The reason for interrupting you all!
He is currently a little pork-chop pushing 26 lbs and should be closer to 20-25ish despite eating the above “low fat” diet (so he doesn’t die from pancreatitis) and ZERO extras other than a large contingent of veggies and his beloved sweet-potato. Then I lurk on this site to try to figure out why he is still gaining so much weight… CARBS + SUGARS!? Oh fer cryin out loud! Carrots, one of his favourites, high in carbs. Who knew.

So the question is: What the heck do I feed the poor guy so he doesn’t die from either pancreatitis or complications of being overweight!

The current plan: Get a list of low-carb low-sugar veggies and try to stay low on both for his “treats,” as the food itself “ain’t broke so don’t touch it,” as any guesswork in that department could have serious complications.

Thoughts?
Thanks!
-e

[Nancy C]

I have a GSD who had acute diarrhea from eating Origen and Acana. Both have lentils and chick peas so I would NOT recommend that. AFter weeks of working with a vet we finally got him onto a sensitive stomach food which he did well on. That was Purina Pro Plan for Sen Stomachs. Hated the THOUGHT of Purina but it worked well. (I have heard that their boutiquey higher end brands are much better but I do not KNOW that this is true). This food is NOT in the Groc Stores. We fed that for a month. Then the vet said move to a regular kibble. I chose DR TIMS PERSUIT and he has done beautifully on it now for 3 months. It is for an active dog. You might want to move “down” to KINESIS which is what my Golden Retriever eats and likes. But I rotate. Dr Tims has a website. his food is NOT GMO or Organic but it is made in a facility that meets European standards which are higher than the US. Try the website and read about it. I am planning to move him in Sept to RAW, simply because I am convinced it is healthier. Brothers Complete is another excellent brand to consider. Can study that at DFA and their website. And VICTORS. I have no experience with either. Just putting it out there. The best of luck to you.

[corky b]

Hi All,
My 9 yrs old border collie was just diagnosed with DI which apparently is a very rare thing. Med school are $700 per month. No way I can do that. Changing up her diet to reduce the sodium. Just bought raw frozen beef and small bag of sojourn mix. At this point I’m so confused at t he whole raw thing. What’s the best most economical way to get her a good low sodium diet? Anyone know?

[crazy4cats]

Hi Akari-
According to Steve Brown (SSLL), it is the egg whites that can interfere with the body’s ability to absorb the biotin in the yolks if not lightly cooked. But that is only if feeding many raw eggs or feeding more whites than yolks. He recommends lightly cooking while keeping yolks in tact. Dogs Naturally magazine recommends feeding them raw to avoid ruining the good stuff in the egg whites. They say that there is enough Biotin in the diet to not worry about it. So, who knows? You just have to go with your gut on this one! 🙂 But you are right, you’d probably only want to feed a dog that small one every other week or so.
How is the hunt for the perfect premix going?

[Akari_32]

Bentley doesn’t like THK made straight for more than a day in a row. He also doesn’t like it too thick. God forbid the dog actually have to work for his food (rolls eyes). He doesn’t mind it, though, as long as its not too thick. He’ll eat it, but you can see that he’s not overly happy about it lol He happily eats it when I mix the rest of his canned food in with some every other day, though. Maybe it doesn’t taste meaty enough on its own?

I haven’t tried eggs yet, no. I don’t know how much to give him. He’s so little, only about 7 or 8 pounds, I can’t figure out how to feed him! I’m so used to my dogs where I just throw some food at them and adjust accordingly to their weight every few weeksLOL I also want to give him a fish oil pill like I give the big dogs every day, but again, he’s just too little for me to know much to give him and how often. Back to the eggs, I’d rather give him a raw one, so that it mixes nicely with his canned and THK (and I don’t have to screw with trying to not add too much water lol), but I know that too much raw egg can prevent them from absorbing protein, or something. I used to give the other dogs raw eggs every night before I realized that! Whoops! LOL

Whats the most cost effect pre-mix? I was looking at Urban Wolf, and thats pretty expensive. I don’t know how $50 a month (at the least!) would go over for mom. How do you guys like PureFormance by Grandma Lucy’s?

http://www.chewy.com/dog/grandma-lucys-pureformance-grain/dp/46165

I’d have to look a little more into it, because I recall their complete mixes being really low calorie, and a dog Bentley’s size would need a whole pound of it, which seemed crazy, but for now, the price point is good, and might be a good choice. I like that something sugary isn’t the first ingredient, given his yeast problem (Urban Wolf starts with carrots, and others I’ve seen start with sweet potatoes or white potatoes).

The Urban Wolf, how much does a 3lb bag make?

I’ll also be looking at Sojo’s, but I think thats low calorie, too. And I’ll see about SSLL, as well 🙂

[Bobby dog]

Hey Akari:
I hope your mom appreciates your dedication to Bentley!

I second C4c’s vote for eggs. Although I initially used them to help with the healing process, Bobby still gets one poached egg a week; he won’t eat raw egg anymore. His skin and coat is in great shape.

I haven’t posted the ink info yet because I have forgotten where I put the files with the info on my computer. I think I will just post the info that my Professor relayed to me to use as a guide when buying generic cartridges from memory; that could be scary. lol

I was just working on my pet food grocery list and saw your post in my e-mail. You would be proud, I have a $5 off entire purchase that expires tomorrow and a free dog toy with $15 purchase coupon (and various others) I don’t want to waste so I thought I better get organized.

There are some Pro Plan recipes that seem to only come in the 5.5 oz. the rest are regular size cans; or at least I haven’t seen them in larger cans, but I haven’t really looked.

THK was okay, but I don’t think I will purchase any of their products at this time. Bobby liked them the first few feedings, now not so much. There was also a fabulous pro/con discussion regarding the food on one of the THK reviews that was very interesting! I don’t really have any comment on their pre-mix because I haven’t looked at it and I don’t know of anybody who has fed it.

I really have not done any in-depth research on making food for Bobby. I would try to feed lean, organic meat if I was making his meals, but never looked any further as to what type of proteins would be best for him. At this time if I were to purchase a pre-mix it would probably be See Spot Live Longer or Urban Wolf. I think C4c just purchased SSLL so you will be able to get a first hand review if you are interested. I don’t have the time to research the subject properly so I bookmarked some sites when I do. Here’s a link to some pre-mix info:

http://dogaware.com/diet/dogfoodmixes.html

[Akari_32]

Just a little update 🙂

Hair is growing back pretty well, and he’s starting to keep on weight. I think I’ve finally balanced his diet out in a way that has him eating minimally, while still getting the calories he needs.

I’m having trouble finding the Pro Plan I want. I have a few more places to check though. Apparently, they are 5.5 oz cans? Does that sound like what you get, Bobby Dog? And I have some more looking in to for the Nutro Ultra.

I was thinking of getting him a pre-mix, like THK’s new ones, and using pork for the protein. It’s cheap, but it’s still raw. But I’ve heard some different things about how digestible pork is and isn’t, so I’d like to see what you guys have to say about that first.

[WestCoastGSD]

Since starting a premixed raw diet that is complete and balanced, my dogs not only have no gas to speak of, but their poop literally does not stink, unless you jammed it in your face of course. Stools are smaller and much firmer due to the fact that your dog’s body is able to absorb more of the nutrients in his food, therefore less waste. I am feeding multiple dogs and not a single soft stool since we made the switch, and feeding time is a madhouse as they are very excited and the food disappears rapidly. As a kibble feeder for over 20 years and someone who doesn’t even like to deal with raw meat, I finally decided to sacrifice my own squeamishness for the betterment of my dogs and am so happy to say it was well worth it! PS big yellow rubber kitchen gloves are a key ingredient in feeding a raw diet, that much I will tell you LOL!!

[WestCoastGSD]

Mike, Well it’s disappointing you are unable to put Common Sense Dog Food on your list due to the missing AAFCO labeling, but I do understand you have your rules. It is truly a great food and if you speak to the developer of the food she can probably tell you why she hasn’t done the AAFCO labeling. I know she does not really market the food at all beyond her website and her own personal clients. As the Southern California distributor now for this food I truly hope it gets to be more well known for how great it is for all life stages as it is a complete and balanced diet and has been proven over many years of feeding trials with multiple generations of dogs and over 350 litters of puppies, x-raying for joint development issues etc in the dogs that were raised on it, which is more than can be said for most “complete” raw diets out there, commercial pet foods, and for those that haphazardly try to come up with their own raw food formulation for their dogs. For years I steered my clients away from a raw diet for their growing puppies because I did not know of a good complete and correctly balanced raw diet until I found Common Sense. I didn’t want them running into developmental issues with their puppies because they were lacking in something essential, or overdoing it as both can cause harm. All this being said I understand your site has it’s rules, but if the day ever comes I would love to see Common Sense Raw Dog Food added to your list of Editor’s Choice foods. Thanks for your time. ~ Barbara DiBernardo

[matt n]

I suggest looking through the thread the others are suggesting. That’s what I’ve had to do with the absence of response to my own questions.

I might be wrong but these are the conclusions I’ve drawn for what to feed my puppy (poodle/GR mix).

A raw food diet is probably the “best”…if you have unlimited funds. For myself, I tried to find a balance of affordability, healthiness, and convenience. As a result I’ve narrowed it down to these dry foods…

Annamaet Grain-Free Aqualuk
Annamaet Grain-Free Salcha Poulet
Dr. Tim’s Kinesis
Dr. Tim’s Kinesis Grain-Free
Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch
Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast
Nature’s Variety Instinct
Victor Select
Wellness CORE Grain-Free Puppy

I’ll eventually try all of these and see which my puppy does best on. If that’s too much trial and error for you, I’d go with Dr. Tim’s Kinesis.

As far as I can tell, grain free vs grain inclusive usually only matters if your pup has issues with grains or if you’re into the “fads.”

But once again this is just my observations from perusing the forums.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by matt n.

[Nancy C]

I speak with no authority however, have reviewed in detail and have come to the same conclusion. Have talked to Scott the owner and he is very informed and I think they are committed to making a superior food. I like the “no synthetic vitamins.” He does not commit to GMO and I asked him WHY. Answ was that there is no established definition of exactly what that is and how one can claim to be GMO (I am paraphrasing) and until there are set definitions of it he is not claiming it. However, they strive toward the best. I was going to use it in my rotation until I decided to try Raw. Should that not work NL will def be in my rotation.

[Bobby dog]

You are welcome and congrats on your good fortune!! At least you have a few places/foods to look at if you are ever in a pinch again!

Victor is recommended often on DFA. I have only fed a few samples of Victor to my dog which he loved. No one sells it by me so if it ever becomes available locally, I will be feeding it as part of my rotation. I feed some commercial raw as toppers and feed the ABC diet weekly and I believe your dogs will enjoy the variety. Good luck with your pups!!

[gmcbogger38]

Thanks again for the tips! I have had my life take a 360 degree change for the better, so I’ll have a little more money at my disposal when choosing a dog food. I’ve heard a lot of great things with Victor Ultra Pro, so I want to try that and possibly also feed raw a few times per week. Still doesn’t hurt to save money, though!

[pugmomsandy]

I’m not familiar with MPC grinds, but if you get the ones with bone and organs included, I wouldn’t add anything to it besides the vitamin supplements if you like. The heart and gizzard and tripe count as “muscle meat” in a recipe just like chicken breast. You can feed tripe daily if you like. You might consider getting a meat grinder that has at least 1 hp if you plan on feeding raw grinds long term. 1hp (and even .75 hp) is sufficient to grind chicken bones. You can cut costs by buying bulk chicken legs and necks and organs by the case. Grind up 50 lbs of food at a time and save on time!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[USA]

Hi sue

Since the Malaseb works I am going to make a suggestion for a natural, soothing, cooling, antibacterial and antifungal rinse or spray for the skin that costs me about $15 USD to make a gallon

1 Gallon Aloe Vera juice. No sweeteners or anything else, just aloe vera juice. Remove 16 oz of juice. Replace with 8 oz of regular witch hazel and 8 oz of raw (cloudy) Apple Cider Vinegar. Shake Well

The Aloe soothes and helps rebuild damaged skin.
Apple Cider Vinegar is a natural, effective antibacterial and antifungal.
Witch Hazel soothes and cools irritated skin.

You can put it in a spray bottle and mist Patch’s feet and in between his toes. You can mist his body paying special attention not to get any in his mouth, nose or eyes. You can put some in your hands or on a cloth and gently rub it into the places on his head.

This mixture is safe to use up to 2 times a day. The witch Hazel contains some alcohol but the amount used will only bring the total alcohol content of the gallon to just under 1%. I like the regular witch hazel better than the alcohol-free version because the alcohol-free version is preserved with either parabens (bad) or benzoic acid (i’d rather use a little alcohol).

Good Luck and give Patch a body rub for me!!!

[Naturella]

Lihan, there are many good foods out there. The best thing to do is rotate between brands and also protein types – some well-regarded foods are Annamaet, Dr. Tim’s, Victor, Wellness, GO!, Now! Fresh, Earthborn Holistic to name a few. I don’t think all of them are GMO-free, but they are quality foods nonetheless. You can also supplement with canned sardines, fish oil, coconut oil (those three do wonders for skin and coat), probiotics/digestive enzymes/yoghurt/kefir/canned plain pumpkin, cottage cheese, and if particularly “adventurous” – a raw egg here and there and maybe some raw too or Raw Meaty Bones (RMBs – like chicken wings, legs, necks, backs, pork neck bones, beef ribs, etc.) Or, even some good-quality canned or dehydrated will do the trick! 🙂

Shopping online is usually easy and convenient and websites such as http://www.petflow.com , http://www.chewy.com , http://www.wag.com , http://www.petfooddirect.com , etc. usually have good deals that you will know of if you sign up for their emails.

Good luck, happy feeding and rotating, and don’t hesitate to post any and all questons you have – the crowd on this site is amazingly knowledgeable and supportive.

[Dori]

Hi Kristin. I switched all three of my girls a bit over two years ago due to all the issues that Katie was having. At that point while I researched dog foods and her issues on line I was fortunate to come across the Dog Food Advisor and as I have mentioned more times than I can count my girls and I will be eternally grateful to Dr. Mike. Unfortunately it was Dr. Mikes loss of Penny that set him on his quest to find a better dog food his canine and we have all benefited from it. I still grieve for him, his family, and, of course, Penny. Anyone of us that has lost a dog or any other pet understands his plight. He actually did something about it that has benefited so many of us and our pets.

Anyway, your question to me, specifically, was what am I feeding Katie. I feed all three of my little girls the same exact food because I don’t want to take a chance that my “delicate flower Katie” gets into anything other than what seems to work for her. I mostly feed commercial raw foods: Primal Formulas, Answers Detailed, Stella & Chewy’s Raw Food, Darwin’s (on line delivery and auto-delivery only), Natures Variety Instinct Raw, Vital Essentials Raw. I rotate their foods between these are probably other raw foods also. I do add at times proteins that I’m preparing for my husband and myself. I add either Natures Logic Sardine oil, or canned sardine’s in water two or three times a week. On the days that I split a can of sardines in water amongst the three of them I omit the sardine oil (kept refrigerated-important to keep oils refrigerated), I add a little coconut oil to their meals once a day every day. I also give them as snacks organic fruits, veggies. I do not feed any commercial treats whatsoever. To many recalls, too many issues with gmo ingredients, too many ingredients not disclosed from China. Katie has too many food intolerances for me to feed any commercial treats. Most are bound by oatmeal, barley, or some such grain. I choose not to do that. We adopted her at the age of 9 weeks old. She was the runt of her litter and was going to be “euthanized”. Friends told me about her knowing what a complete SUCKER I am. I need to have that tattooed on my forehead. She has food and environmental issues. She has had many dental issues and at the age of 8 months old she had a severe luxating patella issue that was severe enough that she had to have surgery, water treadmill therapy, etc. etc. With all her issues she is the mushy gushiest lovey dog I have ever come across in my 65 years of age. You get what you give. The reason for my reply to you initially is that I truly believe that you have to pay it forward in this life. Some people read and study the science, I have always learned and lived from experience. Not saying that the science is wrong or that anyone that wants to go that way is wrong, not at all. It’s everyone’s choice. I choose experience. I know that Katie was a mess, completely a mess when I got her at 9 weeks. She is a fabulous dog and a real happy camper at this point. She loves everyone and everyone loves her. Anyway, Kristin C. That’s my experience with Katie. I have also thanked Dr. Mike, Sandy S., and HDM as well as anyone and everyone here on DFA for their kindness, knowledge, and love of animals. MY other two dogs that have had no issues concerning diet whatsoever, Hannah my 15 year old Maltese, and Lola my 5 year old Yorkipoo but have benefited exponentially from everyone here on DFA. That’s what I’ve learned from my fellow posters and that’s what I’ve tried to “pay it forward”. Gotta go now. My husband is yearning for some “Cold Stone” ice cream. He has macular degeneration and can no longer drive so I reap the benefits from his ice cream urges. Hot Fudge sundae for me. I hear it calling my name.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Dori.

[Melissaandcrew]

Hi Kristin-Rashes can be caused by anything, and seem to be more common place in the summer time. The fact that she has a rash and a hotspot would make me use the antibiotics in a heart beat. Hot spots can literally grow into weeping nasty messes in a matter of hours-Antibiotics will help alleviate that, and often a gentamycin spray is also recc for topical use. I have never had hotspots on any of my dogs-with that said, someone gave me two bags of iams fish-the higher line of the Iams. I figures what could it hurt? So, I fed it mixed with the raw for two days. On day number three one dog had a weeping hot spot on his neck, and 24 hrs later the hair had fallen out. Off to the vet. I literally walked in the door to see another dog come running over with a freaking hot spot in the middle of his back, that had no been there 1 hr before when we left for the vet with dog 1.

[Kristin C]

Thanks for the diagnostic tree Aimee. It is helpful, although I don’t think my dog’s rash looks like the pictures. Am going to let the meds run their course and go from there.

Dori-I don’t feed my dogs grains but I will take the poultry elimination into consideration if the rash goes away and returns. I started her on raw because she was constantly throwing up and pooping out (diarrhea) chicken kibble for weeks and weeks. I figured it was something in the kibble other than chicken though. May I ask what you feed your dogs?

[Dori]

Hi Aimee. I have read that brief before when I was having so many issues with Katie. As far as the other parts of my reply to Kristin C., I stated that it was in my humble opinion. I didn’t state it as a fact, only my years of experience with Katie. I do believe Kristin’s dogs vet is mistaken when he told her he did not believe the issue was diet related. I do believe it’s diet related. I had similar issue with one of my dogs and I explained how I solved the problem.

I don’t want this to wind up some long drawn out debate. Again I stated it was my opinion, not anyone else’s just mine and my experiences with a dog who suffers from food intolerances and allergies. Just passing Katie’s experience along.

[aimee]

Hi Dori,

Perhaps this can help you understand why a vet may choose to put a dog with an unknown skin eruption/rash on antibiotics. http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/8.27.pdf

This is a diagnostic tree for skin eruptions written by a board certified veterinary dermatologist. Note that the first diagnostic steps all converge on doing an antibiotic trial. The response to antibiotics is then used to guide further tests and help rule in/rule out other causes. Certainly we don’t have all the information involved in the vets decision to use antibiotic but I wouldn’t fault this vet in any way for choosing to recommend them.

Also the OP said the vet did not think it was diet ( I saw you posted you think it is “IMHO your vet is mistaken. It is the diet” not sure that is what you meant to say) but recommended a nutritional consult. In my mind this is a very reasonable recommendation. The vet herself/himself doesn’t have the databases, time, nor expertise to ensure this dog’s needs are being met. In that case it is reasonable to recommend the owner to consult with someone who can evaluate well. There are some ACVN that will balance raw diets for their clients. The difficulty comes in that many food item used by raw feeders do not have nutrient profiles established for them.

[Dori]

Hi Kristen. My dog Katie (5 year old Maltipoo) used to get underarm rash also, sometimes it would look more like a grayish area also. It went away after a couple of weeks when I put her on raw diet eliminating all grains, soy, corn, white potatoes and most especially chicken, turkey, duck, quail. In other words all fowl was removed from her diet. She and my other two dogs have been on raw food diet for a little over two years. Katie has never gotten the underarm rash again. IMHO your vet is mistaken. It is the diet. I would definitely NOT spend the money on any nutritionist that does not believe in raw feeding. I figured all this out with Katie through years of trial and error. I would take away any and all grains and definitely switch out all poultry for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Never give antibiotics for allergies or an undiagnosed issue. Most traditional vets in my experience are very quick to hand out antibiotics. The only reason I would go along with giving any of my dogs antibiotics is if it was a true diagnosed issue that was an infection that needed antibiotics and that the antibiotic was specific for whatever the infection was. That was a really bad call on the part of your vet.

C4C. I think if it was laundry detergent or something on the lawn or on the property it would not be just an underarm rash, it would be on the paws, belly and other areas, don’t you think? Anyway, it’s just my opinion for whatever it’s worth.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Dori.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Kristin C-
I am not a knowledgeable raw feeder by any means. However, it sounds like you are doing an amazing job! I can’t even imagine the work you put in to feeding your lucky dog! I was wondering how long your dog has been on the meds and if there has been any improvement? It seems a little early to stop what you are doing and change things up to do a nutrition consult. The rash at this point could be anything. It could be something from the grass that she came in contact with. Or, even a reaction to a new laundry soap or something. Hopefully, the problem goes away and doesn’t reoccur. If it turns in to an ongoing issue, then I think maybe a diet change should be something to think about to try and pinpoint the offending ingredient. Of course, your vet most definitely knows A LOT more than me. Good luck and keep up the good work with your pup!

[Bobby dog]

Hey guys
It’s a very, very, very rainy day here, Bobby is not happy.

Akari:
Glad you’re back!! I will post cartridge info later when I can get to my saved info for it. 🙂

Love the bowls and the pics too!!! Alec looks happy to have someone to bother.

C4c:
So jealous of your TJ’s. I have to drive so far to get to one, 🙁 but I will be going by one in the fall as you know so we can compare notes about shopping there! TJ’s is on Dr. Pierson’s list (and my Vet’s list too). I looked at reviews on YouTube and various other sites. I couldn’t find ingredient or analysis info anywhere on TJ’s website. I remember it has rice and fish in some or all recipes. It reminded me of a CSFCLS or BB quality. I am definitely going to try some out. Most reviews I read commented that it was decent quality and budget friendly to add to a rotation.

FYI for all you cat lovers, you know how I love a good PDF download. On Little Big Cat Dr. Hofve’s updated book “What Cats Should Eat” is on sale for $4.97, regularly $8.99 until 8/15. Her approved list of cat food is included which was just updated last month. The list even includes some dry, although as you know she discourages feeding dry food. Also on the approved list are commercial raw (dehydrated, freeze dried, frozen etc), foods that need supplements, treats, toppers, meal supplements, foods considered but not approved, foods that were approved and why they are no longer approved.

I haven’t had a chance to read it, just downloaded it yesterday, but the list I was happy with. I can comment that some of the foods she lists are not an option for me because of the manufacturers, but nevertheless I am glad I purchased the book because there are plently of foods listed. Some chapter topics are dry diets, wet diets, nutrition related diseases, alternative diets, and making your cat’s food at home; it’s 62 pages. Here’s the link to the bookstore on her website if you’re interested: http://www.littlebigcat.com/bookstore/

[Kristin C]

As a follow up, I feed Darwin’s and Nature’s Variety raw and Orijen 6 Fish kibble. I usually add cottage cheese or yogurt to the kibble meals. My homemade consists of 65% meat, 10% organ, 5% liver, 15% pumpkin or sweet potato, 5% veggie pulp from my juicer, plus eggs. I add a half teaspoon eggshell per each pound of meat and some fish oil and vitamin e. RMBs consist of chicken backs, turkey or duck necks. My homemade is chicken and beef, beef I can get more variety of organs. Sometimes I use a pre-mix (Sojos grain free) if I don’t have time for the veggie pulp. I usually give 1 or 2 small dried beef trachea during the week too, not too many other treats.

[Kristin C]

Recently took our 1 year old to the vet for an underarm rash. They gave her antibiotics and allergen pills for 2 weeks but did not identify the problem. The vet does not believe it is diet related, however she recommended we start feeding her 75% from one source and get a nutrition consult from Tufts. I feed both my dogs a combination of commercial raw (30%) homemade raw (50%) and a small amount of Orijen kibble (15%) plus raw meaty bones 1x per week. The raw is a variety of chicken, beef, duck and turkey. I did a lot of research working up to their current diet and am confused with the varying opinions out there, and now worried about the balanced nutrition. They are both energetic, glowing, and their stools are consistently as they should be. My concern with Tufts is they don’t seem to advocate raw diets and I don’t want to switch them to that much kibble. I can feed both dogs different proteins at every meal, and different brands, and they have no problems I believe because it is all high quality food. I am looking for some dialogue here from a knowledgeable raw feeder to get an opinion on my approach.

[DogsAreMyLife]

I did look into Dr. Tim’s, and there appears to be a chicken based kibble, and a salmon & pork based kibble. The level of ash in the salmon & pork seems a bit high (8.9%), but the 6.9% in the GF Kinesis is relatively reasonable, and it has 2% more protein than Annamaet’s chicken based kibble. I wish the chicken based Farmina had a lower ash level (7.8%), because I really like the 37% protein level. <–That was mostly just written out for me to keep track.
I’ll probably use Dr. Tim’s Kinesis one month, then Farmina’s Wild Herring, and Annamaet’s Manitok.
As for the Fromm, I feel the amount of fruit/veg is too high. I prefer my guys to get mostly meat. I’d do Prey Model Raw, if I had freezer space.

Thank you for your suggestions everybody! If there are any other food that anyone can think of, please feel free to list them as well. I’d love to have one more protein, to throw in the rotation.

[aquariangt]

There is a sticky on one of the pages under Help and Feedback that gives directions on how to create an avatar. it’s done offsite through a website called gravatar

Graham is my name! I don’t feed raw-I do use HK and like it-but a lot of people here seem to use Steve Brown’s books as a guideline to a full on homemade diet. You can download them on Amazon or order the books there as well. From my understanding, completely homemade the most important thing is balancing, so hopefully someone like Sandy or HDM that already does this will chime in

Good luck

[Nancy C]

In September I am transitioning my 2 yr old GSD over to raw and have developed a plan, thanks to the wonderful friends at DFA. 🙂 My 10 yr old Golden Retriever deserves better food too. So I wondered if a chicken wing on top of her bowl of kibble is a good start? She’s had kibble all her life. She is great about rotating any brand anytime. Switches on a dime easily. I put it in the bowl: She sniffs and EATS it. Recently when I prepared an organic chicken for our dinner I handed her the livers and heart raw and she gobbled them. No problem. What I am scared of is she won’t know to smash the wings before swallowing and then she will choke. I don’t want to lose my dog. Someone told me yesterday her dogs sometime spit UP wings but then they eat them back down. She says it is normal to smash them by chomping down a time or two with back teeth and then let them slide on down the throat. This Golden is 55 pounds. Not huge and not heavy. Do any of you give chicken wings to a dog her size or smaller? Do you have a better idea? Should I just go on and order Darwins or Answers and start her on Raw that way? I plan to give her Probiotics the night before just to prep her intestinal tract. Thoughts, advice are appreciated. Thank you.

[Stewart]

Hello everyone, I’ve been a lurker and finally decided to join. I wanted to get some advice about a homemade cooked veggie pre-mix. My little dog(Graham) does raw muscle meat with The Honest Kitchen pre-mix. He’s been on it for a little over 2 years. I want to make my own because I think I could save some money. Does anyone know of a recipe for a homemade pre-mix?

Background- the reason he is on the pre-mix is because he has severe allergies. When I first got him I knew I was doing raw with him just like my cat. But he kept throwing up or regurgitating his food. No matter the brand of raw, homemade or commercial he couldn’t keep it down. He would thow up in his sleep, it was bad. We did an ultra sound, allergy test, x-ray… we even tried kibble but that only added diarrhea to the mix. It was really bad at one point. I cried thinking I might have to give him away because nothing that I was doing was making him better. I was sad and frustrated all at the same time. Then one day I noticed small bits of bone in his throw up and thought maybe it’s the bone? Sure enough that’s exactly what it was! We also stay away from things found on his allergy panel(potato, rice, lamb) but the bone was the main culprit behind him throwing up raw. He’s 3 and we had a hard first year but everything worked out.

Also can someone point me area for directions on how to get a picture up? I’m missing something.

[Ann P]

Please don’t wait until you have scientific “proof” to sounds the alarms about the health hazards of Canola oil! You won’t easily find them–especially in relation to dogs. Unfortunately, in the scientific community–to the chagrin of many ethical scientists, money rules! Mary Enig, Ph.D, is a leading authority on lipids and was one of the first scientists to raise serious concerns about the health effects of trans-fatty acids and she was academically black-balled for it. The the power of the vegetable oil lobby did her in–at least for a time. Dr. Enig is a co-author of a cookbook entitled, “Nourishing Traditions”. In a section about fats, this is what is written about Canola oil:
“Canola Oil contains 5 percent saturated fat, 57 percent oleic acid, 23 percent omega-6 and 10-15 percent omega 3. The newest oil on the market, canola oil was developed from the rape seed, a member of the mustard family. Rape see is considered unsuited to human consumption because it contains a long-chain fatty acid called erucic acid, which under some circumstances is associated with fibrotic heart lesions. Canola oil was bred to contain little if any erucic acid and has drawn the attention of nutritionists because of its high oleic-acid content. But there are some indications that canola oil presents dangers of its own. It has a high sulphur content and goes rancid easily. Baked goods made with canola oil develop mold very quickly. During the deodorizing process, the omega-3 fatty acids of processed canola oil are transformed into TRANS fatty acids, similar to those in margarine and possibly more dangerous. A recent study indicates that “heart healthy” canola oil actually creates a deficiency of vitamin E, a vitamin required for a healthy cardiovascular system. Other studies indicate that even low erucic-acid canola oil causes heart lesions particularly when the diet is also low in saturated fat.” Here are the three studies cited (I don’t know how to italicize here–so it’s not in proper form):

Sauer, FD, et al, Nutrition Research, 1997, 17:2:259-269

Kramer, J K G, et al, Lip1982, 17:372-382;

Trenholm, H L, et al, Canadian Institute Food Science Technology Journal, 1979, 12:189-193

Between my roommate and myself, there are four dogs in our household. We have been tight on money so took pains to find the least expensive dog food of reasonable quality and grain-free for our dogs. We were directed to a new dog food that had Canola oil listed as its fourth ingredient. Our two oldest dogs got extremely sick on it (with vomiting, diarrhea and extreme lethargy) and the younger ones started getting loose stools and eating a lot of grass. Yes, yes! I know, “correlation is not causation”! But I will no longer gamble my dogs’ health on Canola oil. I may just have to get a third job! Here is an article that also cites a few studies:

http://breathing.com/articles/canola-oil.htm

It is assumed that dried dog food can be stored at room temperature. Knowing how fragile canola oil is when it comes to rancidity, just imagine how rancid it is in these dried dog foods! Please revisit the canola oil debate and warn your readers!

[crazy4cats]

Hi James P.-
Welcome to Dog Food Advisor! I was curious if you supplement the kibble with any toppers? Any fresh or canned food added? Also wondering if when you tried to switch food if did it very slowly? What I have learned coming to this site for the past year or so is that no kibble is really that great. I don’t switch kibble that often but I like to supplement every meal with something more healthy and species appropriate. Every morning, I add some canned. For the afternoon meal, I add fresh ingredients such as eggs, sardines, or raw nuggets.
I feed mostly grain free Victor kibble. I can get it in a 50lb bag for my two lab mix dogs. I have fed Royal Canin before on the advise of a vet. It’s unbelievably expensive for as much Brewers Rice and by-products that it contains.
I’d encourage to at least start supplementing if you are not already.
Good luck to you. I hope you get some helpful advise from this site. I know I have.

[FreeholdHound]

I live within 5 min of his place & have debated going in for the Tripe Patties many times. There’s not much on the menu that Harry can eat besides that, so I just order my Tripe with the rest of my stuff from Hare Today & now trying Reel Raw.

[DogFoodie]

I hate to say this, but I recall calling Earthborn when my Golden was a little pup and the gentleman that I spoke with told me the Calcium in the Primitive Naturals was too high for a LBP in growth phase. I don’t mind single source amino acids at all, after all, it’s why you rotate in the first place.

What stores do you have locally, Petco, PetSmart, TSC? Have you tried the Victor product locator to see if you might have that at a local feed store. No pet boutiques? You could try cooking or a simple raw diet for a few days if you needed to while you wait for an order to arrive. You could even run to Wal-Mart and feed some Pure Balance canned for a few days in a pinch.

I’d go for the Meadow Feast of all those you mentioned. I would never use a Blue Buffalo product.

[Naturella]

Amen, Kritterlady! This is basically what happened to us when we got Bruno. He was dropped off with no food, so we loaded him in the car and rushed to PetSmart where we looked around a bit (our roommate was feeding Science Diet at the time, thank goodness he finally switched to Nulo Medal Series), and we were pondering upon also feeding SD, but we spoke to a store associate and she recommended Nutro Natural Choice Small Breed Puppy (4.5 stars on DFA, but I didn’t know this at the time) – she talked about the unique shape of the kibbles and how they are meant to strengthen puppy jaws but are small enough for our little guy. We got a small bag of that, Bruno loved it, it was all good. But then I kept seeing Blue Wilderness commercials, so in a month we got him a small bag of that. He also loved it and I noticed increased shine on his coat. We bought a bigger bag and for the next 3-4 months he was on Blue, but when researching it I found DFA, and began learning tons and tons about dog nutrition. I am so happy I steered clear of SD and now Bruno is on a rotational dry diet (4-5 stars only) with canned or THK as a topper, and additives like yoghurt/kefir, coconut oil, canned sardines, flax seed meal and pumpkin every once in a while, and RMBs and raw egg once a week each. He looks fantastic, coat feels great, and I really believe that had it not been for Blue Buffalo Wilderness and me researching it, I may not have found this amazing website and learned so much. I plan to use it again in the future as Bruno seemed to have no problems on it, but it will be a while – so many other foods to try before that! 🙂

[Bobby dog]

Tindaisy:
They sound like beautiful kitties and I really love the names too! I love it when they all get along. All of my dogs got along with cats and it’s always good for a laugh when they play with each other.

FYI – I feed 4Health products to my dog and cats and really like them; not to mention they are very budget friendly! 4Health is reviewed well on DFA. I would also like to let you know about who manufactures them so you can make an informed decision about the products if you choose to feed them. If you are aware of who manufactures 4Health products and their history, you can stop reading this post now. lol

Some of the grain free kibble dog foods and GF cat food are made by Ainsworth – GF turkey, GF beef dog foods, and the GF cat food. The other kibble recipes are manufactured by Diamond – GF whitefish, GF duck, GF pork, all grain inclusive dog foods, and the grain inclusive cat food. Diamond also manufactures Taste of the Wild kibbles. Many of their products are sold at TSC and other places as well.

Diamond has a history of repeated recalls and I believe they just came to an agreement in settling one case against them. Any food can have recalls, kibble, canned, or raw, and you can only hope they take care of the issue responsibly, Diamond in my opinion did not. You can read more about Diamond recalls on the review side under the recall tab and various other websites. I personally have not knowingly bought a Diamond product since around 2007. I was not aware of pet food companies outsourcing the manufacturing of their foods until I came to DFA. So I have fed products manufactured by them, but I now keep track of who co-packs the food I feed.

I think the east coast factory is the one that was involved in the recalls. If I lived on the west coast I would consider and probably would feed Diamond products. They have several factories on the west coast and I don’t think they have been involved in any recalls.

I won’t completely rule them out for the future. They really look like good recipes to me and have a great price point, but I live in a region that more than likely would be supplied by the east coast factory. Hopefully they have addressed their issues and will be producing quality pet food in the years to come. So for now my choice is not to feed any products manufactured by Diamond.

[Kritterlady]

That’s true InkedMarie there are so many good ones. When I started my education back in 2005 I was feeding pedigree to my dogs and science diet to my cats. It’s a wonder they survived. I worked at a big Petsmart managing the equine dept. I knew nothing about dog or cat food quality and after I rescued an allergy dog and kept buying more an more expensive food i was at a loss. My vet recommended Blue and it saved my dogs life and my sanity. My point is that there’s a place for these foods in the process. For so many people they just don’t know where to look. My friend manages that store and they use foods like Blue to start the education process with people who come in and say they’ve heard about Blue from commercials or friends and think they need a better food. It’s a great launch point like it was for me. As my GSD got healthier I wanted to know why and began to do reaserch which lead me to rotational and raw. So many of the really great foods aren’t readily available or advertised to the young family getting their first dog or the granny with her itchy Pom. After all beneful has great commercials so if blue is there as a counter point it may get that person wondering which is best. When I worked in the store every day people asked whats the best food and all we can do was tell them what we feed. Thank god for DFA and the other sites that continue to educate those willing to look!