[Susan]

Hi Leslie, yes my rescue boy has IBD diagnosed thru Endoscope & Biopsies.. He has Food Sensitivities & cant have real high fat or high protein over 28% kibbles, like I wrote above it has taken me 3 yrs to work out what he can eat & can’t eat if your feeding turkey with the kibble have you thought of feeding him a raw diet or a cooked diet & stop feeding him kibble. There’s balanced premade raw diets….
You have to read the ingredients in the Science Diet formula & Fat, Protein & Fiber percent & look at all the kibbles you have tried & see where the difference lays, is the protein, fat or fiber too high, look at ingredients what’s the protein in Science Diet? Science Diet usually uses chicken, what ingredients are in the Science Diet usually corn gluten brewers rice, beet pulp etc then look at the ingredients in the other kibbles you have tried, see if there’s an ingredient in all the kibbles he had diarrhea….
also look at what oils & fat that are in the ingredients like fish oil, Salmon oil, my boy can not eat these oils, the American TOTW uses Salmon Oil but the Australian TOTW uses Canola Oil…. the best thing to do is start an elimination diet it takes a while but you will know what he cant eat, also maybe see a vet that specializes in IBS & IBD..
Have you looked at Science Diet Ideal balance?? it has better ingredients the their Science Diet range…

[Susan]

Hi, please get your Science Diet puppy food that your pup does good on, now read the Fat % the Protein % the Fiber % try & find a kibble with grains not grain free, cause the Science Diet uses crappy grains & there’s good premium kibbles with good grains & sweet potatoes that will be better then the Science Diet your feeding…
With the TOTW did the try “Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb”?? it’s an all life stages kibble & has the least ingredients & the protein is only 25%, fat is 15%, I have a IBD boy & he does really well on the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb, it doesn’t have Garbanzo beans or lentils, Legumes, stay away from kibbles with Chickpeas, Lentils, Legumes…. have a look at “Holistic Select” Puppy/Adult its a grain free or the Holistic Select Anchovy, Sardines & Salmon & Rice or look at “Wellness Simple” range… Look for kibbles with limited ingredients that have brown rice there’s even “California Natural” it has limited ingredients only 3-4 ingredients & no peas, when my boy first stared eating kibbles with peas he got real bad wind…. Cause your pup is use to eating the Science Diet kibble you have to slowly introduce new foods in his diet once he’s doing well on a premium kibble, its taken me 3 yrs for Patch, & now he can eat apple, lean pork, lean beef, broccoli, carrot, egg, tuna. salmon, sweet potatoes, pumkin, raw almonds… I slowly started introducing all these foods once he was doing well on a kibble, TOTW Sierra Mountain, then I would give a couple pieces of peeled apple as a treat for 2 weeks, then 1 spoon pumkin with his kibble, then sweet potato etc… You will get there…
The other day I tried Artemis Turkey & Garbanzo beans, I had originally ordered Artemis Duck & Sweet Potato kibble but Pet place had sold out & gave me Artemis new formula & poor Patch was sick with diarrhea for 2-3 days until he was put on Metronidazole… 🙁 I’ll have to return & say he wont eat it, always check if the kibble is money back guaranteed.

[Susan]

Hi have a look at Artemis Osopure Turkey & Garbanzo beans or Duck & Garbanzo beans
but it has peas….Have you done a food elimination diet to be 100% that she is sensitive to all these ingredients?? Have you seen a Dermatologist instead of a vet?
I know you wrote you don’t have the time to cook but if you cooked once a fortnight or monthly & freeze the meals in sections…
I buy Lean Pork mince & add parsley, broccoli, carrot, kale & Almond & Flax meal & 1 whisked egg & mix all together & make 1 cup size rissoles & bake in oven then cool then freeze & also boil sweet potato pieces & freeze & take out the day before & put in fridge for the next day…. when I first started I only added pork mince & parsley then I slowly added the other ingredients to see how Patch went…..
Your not going to find a kibble that doesn’t have the all the ingredients she is sensitive too…maybe look at wet tin or the Honest Kitchen meals you just add water or you buy your own meat & add the Honest Kitchen base mixes…. have you tried Raw Diet the pre-made Raw??
Its very rare for a dog to be allergic to most proteins & when they are they will suffer with IBD…..

[mary s]

Wow, well, thank you all for your opinions. First, THK is on Hound Dog Mom’s list as OK for Large breed puppies, and she even mentions in a post, that before she started feeding raw it was what she fed. It sounds like some more current “suggestions” differ from what she was putting out there at the start of this list. Second, regarding research…..I lived my research regarding traditional vet med. I had two littermate brothers with IBD. They weighed 52 and 58 pounds with bloody mucus filled poop, and could have died from the IBD. 3 different vets wanted to scope them, keep them on metranidozole (sorry, I’m sure I spelled that wrong) and steroids indefinitely. The raw diet, supplements, and homeopathic remedies are what saved their lives, and they went to 85 and 75 pounds. and lived to be 12. It might be beneficial for some of you to look up true homeopathics before some of the judgements. However, I am not interested in a debate either. I just came here for some help. Anyway, while disappointed, I am more certain of what I am doing. And thank you to whomever said they were glad he was doing better, because he is…..no blood, perfectly formed poop – without the harsh medications that only suppress the symptoms anyway. I think we may be in the wrong pew, but I wish you all the very best of luck with your dogs 🙂

[Sherri S]

My husband and I are mostly vegetarians. He eats more meat than I do. The problem with raw meats is a potential problem with E. Coli or Salmonella that occurs in the slaughtering process. In fast slaughtering machines they try to get animals to run through as it slices them up into thousands of pieces. As many of you may recall, Chipotle had a similar problem. At a slaughterhouse (which I am opposed to doing to animals, anyway, btw), ALL of the creature’s body including intestinal tract is often mixed in together, especially in he fast slaughtering machine type. This is why meats were cooked in the first place. To reduce bacteria in the meal itself especially intestinal tract. When we defecate, thousands of bacterial often leave our bodies (humans and dogs). These same areas where our bowel movements occur are full of bacterial and sometimes viruses. Also, fish uncooked can give you a parasite called neorickettsia helminthoeca which is very poisonous to dogs. A vet can also check the feces for nanophyetus salmincola to check for laid eggs. Our dogs get a very good diet of cooked veggies (uncooked can puncture the intestine or cause a disease such as Hepatitis in humans). This is usually due to some countries using human feces as fertilizer which can transmit Hepatitis to other people. I hope this helps.

[Sirius K]

I have a 2 and a half year old mastiff. He is absolutely lovely and has been more or less in good health his whole life. He isn’t on an 100% raw diet, though a lot of what I give him throughout the day is raw meat/slightly cooked meat/meat-based actually good quality treats (I do heavy research before buying anything lmao)

Anyway, so my dog loves steak. So do I. Steak used to be a birthday treat, but since we moved into a place on our own and it’s just the two of us– anyway, he gets steak a lot now. He’s all about that. Lol. I cut his portion into pieces to give him before I season or cook my portion.

Anyway, at the nearby farmer’s market, I recently bought a calf heart (organic, grass-fed, very nice looking) — I haven’t had full on raw beef heart before and neither has my dog. It was frozen when I purchased it and it’s been frozen up until I tossed it in my fridge to thaw. Seeing as it’s a muscle, I figured he would view it similar to steak.

I cut him a couple pieces today because he seemed interested, but he wouldn’t touch it!
This is the first time he’s turned down (meat) raw food of any type. He’s usually only the type to turn down most fruits and vegetables (that are safe for dogs of course) lol.

Did he just think it smelled weird or something? Raw heart does smell rather strong even to me– so I’m sure it smells a hell of a lot to him. But he really likes his other smelly treats– like the green tripe sticks by Barkworthies. So, do you know what’s up?

I’m about to soak some pieces in apple cider vinegar because I read a few places that it would cut down on the smell. But yeah. I was fully planning on sharing this bounty with him. Haha. I don’t know why he isn’t interested. I’m half worried something is wrong with the beef heart I bought and that’s why he won’t eat it, but everything checks out and it seems really fresh.

He loves chicken hearts and all that good stuff.
Anyway, any ideas?
Thanks. 🙂

• This topic was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Sirius K.

[Acroyali]

Just a few of my own thoughts:

When I was in the transitional stages, one of my cats choked…on kibble. He was excessively hungry, and I was removing the 24 hour a day buffet in order to get them acclimated to meal times. He was OK, but any living thing can choke on anything. Bones can be scary, and if someone isn’t comfortable feeding bones I never would suggest it dissuades them from feeding a healthier diet than they’re already feeding. Hare Today offers boneless grinds (meat only) as well as boneless chunks of meat. I believe chicken and turkey both come this way, check the product description to be sure.

I’ve used boneless chunks as “reminders” to chew. I never give an excessively hungry dog anything bone-in; bones come after the main meal, which is mostly muscle meats and organs. It works for us, hopefully it can and will work for others.

I have and do brush teeth on a few of my dogs as a precaution. The issue I have is getting more brushed than the stuff we see at first glance. Getting the gumline on the inside part of the back molars with a toothbrush is next to impossible. Your dogs’ teeth may look wonderful when you lift their lip up. But if they yawn or pant and you get a glimpse of gross stuff on the INSIDE of the teeth, chewing is their best bet to get their teeth cleaned up.

I used to be a huge fan of recreational bones until a recent tooth fracture on one of my larger dogs. Now I know why some owners call them “wreck” bones 😉

I have never had the unfortunate experiences described here by some from puncturing or choking to death, and hope I never do. I know of one person who had a boxer choke on an ox tail and the dog died on the way to the vet. I’m SUPER weird about choosing large things for my dogs to chew on for this reason; even if they don’t totally consume the whole thing at once. There’s no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming raw bones, but there’s also no doubt in my mind that dogs have suffered and even died from consuming tainted, moldy, spoiled “safe” dry food (covered in salmonella, BTW), or have suffered greatly from eating a poor choice of food *for them* and have had the symptoms suppressed with drugs.

JMO.

[Susan]

Hi Kaleena, what about adding blended veggies like broccoli, apple, carrot, celery, I use to add 1-2 spoons of the blended veggies to 1 cup of raw, I would make up a batch then freeze in ice cube trays & cover with cling wrap…
also tin sardines in spring water or olive oil add about 3 sardines to 1 meal a day, if you go on Rodney Habib face book page he has a balanced raw recipe easy to make made by Dr Karen Becker & Steve Brown…. also are you feeding 2 meals a day??
When I started feeding a raw diet cause my boy ate kibble he was very hungry eating the raw diet & I had to feed 2 meals a day & he still wanted more, so I gave him 1/2 cup kibble so he would settle & sleep at night, I’d hear his stomach grumbling with hunger, I told the Naturopath who’s Maintenance Diet I had him on & she said yes it can take a while for them to get use to not eating carbs, kibble is full of carbs….. Here’s the Maintenance Diet I followed.
http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/education.php

[marie d]

Hi, im trying to get some advice for taking my boy off kibble and putting him onto raw please. Im so nervous to get it wrong and cause him any harm so would really your help. A little background on him, he is a 9 1/2 year labrador that has been on kibble his whole life. I stupidly thought that as we were getting him the expensive kibble we were feeding him the best. He has been on royal canin gastro for the past 2 years due to him having gastro issues sll his life. The vet came to the conclusion he has an intolerance to fat so needs to be on the low fat diet which has worked for him as we havent had any gastro issues for 2 yr now whilst on this food. Whst he has though is cancer now twice in the past 18 months, both mast cell tumours which led us to start looking into whats in his food. We really want to get him off kibblebas strongly feel that this has contributed to him getting cancer. Ive red so much conflicting info on how to change from dry to raw and am so confused as to what will be best for him. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long post 🙁

[Kaleena R]

So I’ve been researching and have decided i’d like to do raw feeding for my dogs. I have looked into how to do it the most cost effective way for myself and have come up with a proposed “plan”. Would just like opinions and advice to let me know if its sufficient or what I need to add or subtract!

So the plan is 3 days a week feed chicken quarter (bone and meat), 1 day a whole rabbit, 1 day a whole duck,and 2 days of pork(bone and meat). I would also give 1 egg a week and every other week switch duck out for turkey.

Is this sufficient? Enough variety for health?

[Spy Car]

Hey Cannoli,

Homes are filled with a myriad of items that can be considered choking hazards for dogs (and children). People starting raw feeding should monitor their dogs to make sure they get the hang of chewing bone (which is about as natural an instinct as canines could have). Feeding larger sized pieces of bone-in parts (like chicken quarters) that can’t be gulped is always smart, as is supervising a dog new to raw feeding.

But dogs are hard wired to chew. The risks of choking on appropriately sized chicken bones are very low and diminish to near zero as dogs get accustomed to it. Intestinal blockages from items like chicken bones are exceedingly rare. I’d worry a lot more about socks.

The calcium (and its bioavailability) from bone is not in question. Concerns about absorption are misplaced. Getting calcium from bone is what canines were shaped by evolution to do. It is superior to artificial supplementation.

The PMR style of feeding with 10% bone keeps the Calcium Phosphorus ratios at the perfect 1.2:1 levels recommended by the leading authorities as optimal. It is spreading a false fear that rotational feedings with calcium supplements are necessary to maintain mineral balances:it simply isn’t so.

The act of chewing is good for dogs. It is relaxing for them. It builds good dental health (encouraging strong gums and clean teeth) and builds strong neck and jaw muscles, in a fashion that feeding calcium powder does not.

If an owner wishes to brush teeth on top of raw feeding, great! I just know how many conventionally fed dogs I know and they nearly all have tartar-stained yellowing (if not rotten teeth) in marked contrast to raw fed dogs whose teeth stay nice and white (with fresh breath).

When we get phobic or fearful about very natural ways of being it has a cost. This is true both with dogs and with children. One can cut off “play” because someone might get hurt, but that comes at a cost. The risks of feeding soft edible bones to dogs is very (very) low, Cutting them out of the diet due to inflated assessments of the risks has a cost.

The advantages to feeding soft edible bone vastly outweigh the risks. Feeding powdered calcium is sub-optimal.

Bill

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

Removing soft edible bone from the diet (or replacing it with pre-ground bone) removes one of the prime benefits of feeding raw in the first place. It really makes little sense unless there is a good cause for doing so (like an old dog with dental issues).

Chewing soft edible is important for good dental health in addition to providing calcium. It is a reason for embracing raw feeding, not something to figure out how to avoid.

Bill

[Cannoli]

Hi Spy Car,

I don’t consider raw finely ground vegetables to be unnecessary if fed 10% or less of the dog’s diet.

Veggies provide a plethora of additional vitamins that are not found in a meat base diet.

[Jenn H]

My pup, his mother and a littermate all began suffering from similar skin problems at the beginning of spring. Not to the severity of your dog. It appears to be environmental allergies with them.
For my puppy I would use a product I have for my horse. Eqyss Micro-Tek shampoo. “Soothes on contact”. Then I would spray the really bad areas with Eqyss Micro-Tek Equine Spray. (They do make it for dogs. It’s the same stuff, but more costly.) This stuff is amazing. I’ve used it on myself.
For his ears I use epi-otic from the vet. When I ran out I put the equine spray on a cotton ball. Make sure to dry out the ears when you clean them.
He also gets raw honey from a neighbor 2x/day. That has been the ultimate fix. As long as he gets the honey he doesn’t have any problems. After 1 wk without it he begins to get itchy and hot spots. Same with his brother.
Honey must be raw, wildflower honey that is within 50 miles from home.

Food intolerance could certainly be a factor for your dog. I would try an elimination diet if you think that’s a cause.

Tick borne diseases can go into remission and you may never have another flare up again. I have another dog that has had Ehrlichia and now Lyme. I have a bunch of horses with Lyme also. I haven’t known any of them to present with those symptoms you described.
You really need to make sure the dog has a tick borne illness before giving doxy. It’s a pretty hardcore antibiotic. You certainly don’t want to give it needlessly. It can also cause stomach issues. Maybe your dog isn’t breaking down proteins well. If they do have a tick borne illness then the immune system is already taxed. The slightest allergen can become a big problem. My girl takes a probiotic (2 hrs before or after her antibiotic when on it) to help her immune system and minimize the side effects of doxy as much as possible. Fortiflora has been working great for her. She’s on it indefinitely right now, but I continue probiotics at least 2 wks after antibiotic treatment has stopped.

[Freddy w]

Also you may want to try a raw diet
Like chicken and raw hamburger

[Spy Car]

As I mentioned in the other thread, both you and your dogs are likely to be a lot better off following a Prey Model diet as opposed to using recipes by Dr Pitcairn that undermine the advantages of a raw diet by including unnecessary (and counterproductive) grains and vegetables and excluding highly positive soft edible bones.

Feeding whole foods in the right ratios will eliminate the need for supplementation, and optimize health. Also easier on you.

Dr Pitcairn’s approach is outmoded and not widely followed or esteemed in the raw feeding community. It is too much like trying to emulate commercial food at home, instead of feeding a natural whole food diet.

As to bones, I don’t personally feed turkey legs, but some people do. I do feed turkey necks. All chicken bones (raw) are good.

Oily-fish is good, but limit to twice a week feedings (not daily) as most of the most-beneficial fish species have a substance that can block Vitamin B12. This substance, called Thaminaise, passes quickly. It is not a big deal unless you feed a lot of fish on a daily basis.

What are health cuts for dogs are cuts that include plenty of fat. Lean cuts, like inexpensive trimmed beef heart and be supplemented with animal fat. Dogs need to transition to fat burning, so better to being with lean meals and work up slowly. And you need organs.

Once growth plateaus you are better feeding once a day (post wind down from the day’s activities). When not fed grains/carbohydrates (as it ideal, and a prime reason to do a raw diet) dogs turn to the superior (for them) fat metabolism. When fat burning dogs have nearly unlimited stores of energy, so don’t need multiple meals throughout the day. Better if durning their active time they run and play on empty stomachs (especially in large breeds that have risks of GVD aka bloat/torsion).

I’d ditch Dr Pitcairn, which is what I’d suspect you’ll hear from virtually all the raw feeders you encounter. It is both a hassle and a diet with highly questionable downsides.

Bill

[Molly F]

I realized I should have posted this as a new topic, not buried at the end of another topic!
So, sorry if it’s a repeat for some:
Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas.
I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?
I know many people recommend a more “primal” style diet, but I’m on a tight budget these days and the grain component will Really help stretch my dollar!

[Spy Car]

Hey Molly,

I’d suggest you look into the Prey Model of feeding raw foods. I think it would be a better match for your desire to feed whole food ingredients to your dog, and is more healthful than Dr Picairn’s regimen which is heavy on vegetables and grain, and lacks soft edible bone.

Keeping the calcium:phosphorus ratios in the correct target range is important, but by feeding PMR ratios (10% soft edible bone) it is also pretty simple. Dogs get all the nutrients they need from eating diverse animal products.

Following the 80/10/10 model (“meat”/organs/soft edible bones) while diversifying the components is a very straightforward way to feed and get the highest nutritional levels to your dog.

The elaborate recipes of some raw feeding variants put a lot of needless strain on owners, and actually reduce the nutritional value of the diet.

Soft edible bones (like chicken bones) are a great natural source of calcium. Chewing bone also tends to keep dog’s teeth clean, and it promotes strong teeth, strong jaw and neck muscles, and it relaxes dogs to chew.

Best wish on your journey.

Bill

[Spy Car]

PMR calls for 10% secreting organs (half of that being liver). Vitamin D is fat-soluble, so it is stored in the body and need not be supplied in the same levels daily.

Personally, I feed 10% organs daily with one day being liver and the alternate day being kidney, pancreas, spleen, or other to avoid getting “behind,” which “balance over time” (a preference of some raw feeders, but not an intrinsic part of PRM) practices can lead to if people don’t actually keep organs in the weekly diet.

I’m still not seeing that it is obvious how Vitamin D levels were critically low if Toby was getting PMR levels of liver, plus eggs and other Vitamin D sources on a fairly regular basis.

Bill

[mary s]

I had two Irish Setters with IBD…they were brothers. It showed up at about 5 or 6 months of age. Bloody, mucus filled poops. I went through several vets because I did not want to use steroids. One boy was 58 pounds and the other was 52 pounds at the onset. After I finally put them on a homemade raw diet (the commercial raw diets did not work for them…I think because of the organ meats in them) and supplements, their poops normalized and they went to 82 and 75 pounds. They have recently passed away…one had a fibrosis in his lungs that I think was caused by the IBD. They had good years once I got the IBD under control. I hope you are able to do that with diet. The raw diet and supplements are what saved them. I forgot to add….I also used the homeopathic remedies Nux Vomica and Arsenicum Album.
Best of luck

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by mary s.

[pitlove]

Hi Mary-

Congratulations on your new puppy. Sounds like he is going to be a big boy!

In regards to your specific questions, the list from 2013 is her most current list. Hound Dog Mom has been unable to contribute to the forums lately so the list has not been updated. Any company from that list you are considering I would email and ask for a nutrient analysis to confirm that the Ca and Phos levels have not changed. I would then input them into the calcium calculator on this site to double check that it falls within the safe ratios. Not only for the Ca and Phos, but also for the calorie to Ca ratio.

I agree with your vet about waiting to begin a raw diet until after the critical growth phase. And when you do decide to try raw selecting a random recipe from a book or the Internet is not advised. It would be wiser to use a commercial raw diet from a reputable company to ensure proper nutrient levels. Do not buy into the “balance over time” concept. Proponents of this believe that a diet that is not balanced daily can be balanced over time. It is thought that because many humans do not each balanced meals daily, dogs can also do the same. What they forget is that those individuals not eating balanced meals daily often end up with adverse affects later in life. Same is true for our pets.

In regard to Orijen Puppy Large, yes they did reformulate for more appropriate calcium levels.

[HoundMusic]

Have you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?

They get at least 5% organ meats, if not slightly more, and most of that is beef liver. I also feed egg yolks for Vit D., and occasionally give unsalted butter for that, iodine & Omega 3.

The raw, prey model diet, however, does not take into account daily nutritional requirements of dogs, but utilizes a “balance over time” method – so if any deficiency was present, balancing a diet over time and not on a daily basis would likely contribute to the already low levels of Vit. D, which, if allowed to continue with Toby not meeting the requirement for his vitamins on a daily basis, would eventually lead to osteomalacia. My Vet did not have to offer that explanation. I think it’s obvious.

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

In regards to your questions:

I would get full blood panels on each dog prior to starting your new diet so that you have a baseline to compare back to. I’ve seen it recommended to repeat blood panels every 6 months for dogs on homemade diets.

Some feel comfortable feeding bones.. I do not… I do not think the risk is worth the benefit. If using raw bone as your calcium source I feel finely ground is much safer. Disclosure: I do not feed a raw diet. If I did I’d either use a commercial HPP product or would buy large cuts and partially cook to kill off the bacteria both on the surface and those that have migrated deeper and grind myself. I remain unconvinced that dogs tolerate food borne pathogens significantly better then people do.

What supplements you use are up to your own personal philosophy. The primary concern is that you feed a balanced diet. Unfortunately, when the raw diets that people were feeding have been analyzed, most people who participated in the study did not accomplishing this.

I understand the appeal of a simple 80/10/10 mix but honestly I think it requires just as much attention to detail to balance a raw diet as it does to balance a cooked diet.

There are a few veterinary nutritionists that will balance a raw diet, most will not. Veterinary nutritionists legally can not consult directly with you unless they examine your dog which is why you found that they do not do phone/e mail consults. However they can consult indirectly via your veterinarian. Your vet orders the consult and works with the nutritionist on your behalf.

In regards to carbohydrates, people do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates and dogs do not either. Both species require carbohydrate from a metabolic standpoint, the body just has to generate what the diet doesn’t supply. But I don’t understand this statement “Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does” Protein and carbs are considered to carry the same number of calories /gram, the volumes involved will depend on the water content.

[Courtney R]

Being from 1973 doesn’t make it any less valid. Dogs wouldn’t go from not needing starches to needing them in a 40 year period, evolution doesn’t work that quickly.

And the book isnt written by vets, its written National Research Council. It’s used by colleges to educate veterinary nutritionists.

My vet meant exactly what he said ,which is that dogs don’t NEED carbs. Meaning, it’s not harmful to remove them.

If you feed your kibble with toppers and your dog does well, then great! However, I feed my dogs quality kibble and they are not doing great on it so I am looking in to alternatives, one of which is raw. Basically, I’m educating myself in exactly the same way I do when it comes to making food choices for myself. I would never rely solely on what one person says regarding my diet, be it my doctor, my personal trainer or some whackadoo on the internet. Why would I do that for my dog?

[Courtney R]

My comments about carbohydrates?
Well, theres this study on (working) sled dogs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4734973
That showed that despite their level of rigorous activity they actually perform better on high fat, high protein diets.

Or maybe this educational textbook:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10668/nutrient-requirements-of-dogs-and-cats
That states that there’s no requirement of digestible carbohydrates in dogs diets.

And there’s my vet, who explicitly told me there’s no need for dogs to eat carbs, it’s just nearly impossible to make dry kibble without them.

And I’m not decided on anything, I’ve just posted questions regarding feeding raw in a raw forum. Why would I post my questions about preparing cooked food for my dogs in a raw forum, when obviously no one in that forum cooks their food??

[Courtney R]

This link is useful, thank you! I’m guessing you’re a different anonymous user as this diet encourages feeding meat raw lol. I obviously haven’t read through all of it thoroughly (I will), but I wonder about carbs. Dogs don’t need them, and they don’t seem to agree with my dogs, so I’m looking to eliminate them. I wonder if I put that 45-55% towards protein if this would no longer be balanced or if I would just be feeding less? I’ll definitely read through this, and thanks again for posting it.

[Courtney R]

I get that there are dangers to feeding raw and I don’t criticize anyone for trying to make others aware of that fact. All I was trying to say is that a lot of the links posted aren’t particularly useful. For example, the recipe posted earlier was basically chicken, rice and a supplement. I feed my dogs chicken and rice (a bland diet) if they have diarrhea, it’s not really something I would consider balanced and even if I added a supplement it’s not something I would want to feed my dogs routinely or long term. Like I said, I’ve also been researching home cooked meals and am open to them, but from everything I’ve been reading it actually seems MORE difficult to ensure dogs are receiving balanced nutrition from home cooked as opposed to raw. I don’t want to end up in an emergency clinic because of what I’m feeding them (cooked or raw) which is why I’m trying to diligently do my homework.

[anonymously]

“To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads”.

I am someone who has tried raw diets for my pets, as I would speculate the others that are trying to alert you to the possible dangers probably are.
I don’t enjoy going to the emergency veterinary clinics.

PS: I am an RN and have owned dogs for a few decades.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by anonymously.

[Courtney R]

To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads. I’m not in the least opposed to home cooking for my dogs. In fact that was the first thing I looked into after deciding to get them off kibble. I imagine a lot of people do the same. Feeding raweat to my pets is, quite frankly, a little scary.

However, I can’t find much useful information on formulating a home cooked diet. Recipes, sure, but I want something that gives me numbers/formulas/percentages. Maybe I’m weird but I want to just Google recipes and start trying random things. I like that prey model operates on an 80/10/10 and I can sit down and calcute how much meat, bone and organs to feed them. I also like that there’s no starches (potatoes, rice, etc) involved as I am trying to avoid those in their diet.

What I’m getting at is if you know any good sites, books, articles etc that will teach me how to formulate a diet that meets all their nutritional requirements I would love to read it. Im just not finding either of the links you posted particularly informative.

To inkedmarie: So glad I’m not the only one who feels overwhelmed! 😊

[anonymously]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/ (excerpt below, click on link for full article)
“Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food”.
http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes
More information below:

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

[Susan]

Hi Caryn, you have to realise vets aren’t nutritionist & some vets know stuff all about nutrition for dogs & cats….. a good vet would be telling you to feed a balanced raw or cooked diet to your dog & cat, not a kibble….
You should always rotate between a few different brand kibbles & different proteins when feeding a kibble, never just feed the one brand & same protein their whole lives like some people do….also add fresh whole foods to the kibble…. They have found by adding 1 tablespoon of cooked veggies/fruit or a protein to the dogs kibble just 3 times a week can reduce the chances of them getting cancer.. …follow “Rodney Habib” the Pet nutrition blogger on Face Book he’s excellent & it’s so easy to make your dog healthier, happier & live longer…since dogs have been eating just kibble they aren’t living as long as when they were fed table scraps & cooked meals..

When picking a good kibble, look at the ingredients, a good kibble should have at least 3-5 proteins as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th ingredient, then should have a carb like sweet potatoes as the next ingredient….. also when the ingredients are written, the ingredients are raw, not cooked yet except if it says meal eg, chicken meal, lamb meal, duck meal etc also the ingredient list is written on weight, so when ingredients are cooked the ingredients shrink, especially proteins/meats, a good kibble should read Lamb, then Lamb Meal, chicken meal, or turkey, turkey meal, chicken meal etc when it says meal there’s more meat cause the meal is cooked meats dried & made into powder form (meal) but when it just say chicken or lamb or duck, it’s raw & hasn’t been cooked yet it needs the meal to follow, duck then duck meal or chicken then chicken meal etc… also if it say’s fish or ocean fish you want to know what type of fish it is?? it should say salmon, salmon meal or Whitefish, Sardines or Anchovy …..
Have a look at “Canidae” Pure formulas grain free & their Life Stages formulas, their Life Stages, All Life Stages formula is a good kibble, it has 4 high quality meat meals, chicken, turkey, lamb & fish & is a pretty good price when you buy a 20kg bag, then look for another premium kibble & I rotate in the same day some times, I give Patch his “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain for breakfast then he has Canidae Life Stages formula for dinner when I forget to take out his cooked meal out of freezer…. Some people rotate when the bag of kibble is down too 1/4 of the bag left then start adding & mixing in the next new kibble your going to feed, after you have rotated a few different kibbles you don’t really need to slowly introduce anymore……You will see a difference when your dog is feed a better quality kibble that agrees with him, they have more energy, their coat shines, their poos are firm & smaller…. then pick about 3 different kibbles with different proteins & fed them but still keep your eye out for another kibble to try that’s on special or new..
Go onto the “Review” section & start looking at 3-5 star kibbles, I prefer a kibble with less ingredients, limited ingredient kibbles & I add fresh cooked food to the kibble, tin sardines in oil/spring water are excellent, I add tin Salmon in spring water, you ban add the salmon bones, you give about 3 small sardines or 1/4 of the small tin, also veggies broccoli, berries, apple, I fed pieces of peeled seeded apple, watermelon, rock melon as treats also yogurt Patch gets 1 heap spoon yogurt at 11 am every day now….3-4 years ago if I gave Patch anything different in his diet he’d have diarrhea, gas/farts, bad wind pain, rumbling, grumbling bowel noises, he’s a rescue that was feed a very poor diet & now has IBD & Skin & Food sensitivities…. Good Luck
*Canidae- http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products
*Sport Dog Elite Series- http://www.sportdogfood.com/dog-food/active-sporting/performance/
*Taste Of The Wild- http://www.tasteofthewild.com.au
*California Natural- http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products

[Courtney R]

So, I’m considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and I’m inwhat I’d call a “researching” phase. Did anyone else feel totally overwhelmed when starting this process or is that just me? Lol

Short background: I have a 60 lb ACD mix that is roughly 7 (Burke) and a 12 lb Pomchi that is 5 (Miles). They’ve been on Orijen for the past couple of years and so far as stools go it seems to agree with them. However, Burke has started getting lick granulomas roughly 2x per year, Miles chronically seems “yeasty”, they’ve both had UTIs this year and we got fleas for the first time ever this summer which has been an utter nightmare. My vet of course gave antibiotics for the UTIs but seems to not be concerned about the other stuff. But to me it seems their immune systems aren’t up to snuff and diets the easiest way at it.

Currently I have 3 questions which might seem totally unrelated:
#1. Should I have a blood panel done prior to starting raw just to be certain there isn’t any reason why it’d be unhealthy to switch them to raw? Seeing as they’re both having issues I’m doubting that would be the case, but I’m a worrier 😉

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

#3. They already get coconut oil, yogurt or kefir, salmon oil and digestive enzymes. Could I continue these through the transition or should I hold off and give their stomachs time to adjust to raw food? Also, any supplements that they absolutely NEED to have or is this kind of just up to me?

Sorry this wasn’t as short as I’d hoped but thanks so much for any help. This forum has already been a big assistance and I can’t wait to learn more from you guys!

[Ritchy]

Thank you both for the input!

Just thought I’d respond with the path we have decided on for now.

We are going with a mix using nature’s variety. We are doing 25% raw/75% kibble currently and eventually moving to a 50/50 mix. (I am so new to this, I’m not ready to jump into managing nutrient content on my own…probably too lazy/busy to ever get there 🙂 )

This will give us some raw in the diet from what seems to be a really good company.

I REALLY like their feeding guidelines calculator on their website. I was able to enter the weight of each of our dogs and if they needed to maintain or lose a few pounds, the mix and food selections and get an exact feeding guideline.

We are almost a week in now and I can already report a couple of good indicators:
– The dogs love it; they eat way too fast now.
– Their hair is already noticeably softer!

[Philip L. P]

Milk Bones? Bad for your dogs, are you all freakin kidding me!

I don’t feed my dogs any form of dog food, I’ve moved the plants that make this stuff and I can guarantee you you’ll never see a filthier place! That my friends goes for those of the better brands also! Wouldn’t feed my dogs a Raw diet either… fresh, cooked, and frozen human food. As to the Milk Bones that’s a whole different story… I heard story’s about the video and claims that are supposed to state scientific fact that Milk Bones are bad for your dogs… and it all has been debunked as hogwash! There’s never been any such scientific study done on any of that. Not saying it is anything other than what it is meant to be ie.. a treat, treats aren’t supposed to be necessarily healthy same as candy for kids, liquor for adults, or drugs for addicts. But when it comes to Milk Bones you won’t find a better bone for your dog to chew on, or one that will keep your dogs teeth and breath clean. They aren’t supposed to be a meal, or even a supplement… they are supposed to be a treat and one that keeps the dogs teeth in good order. That has always worked for me, none of my dogs have ever had cavity’s, broken teeth, or even yellow teeth even in old age. Milk Bones have been around for over a hundred years and made in the USA. Keep giving your dogs those Nalgene bones and keep taking your dogs to the vets for dental work… as to the use of preservatives of any kind, use common sense in judging the produce, you can’t get away from their use completely. Some of you people take this stuff way too far! I get a kick out of hearing how well you all feed and take care of your dogs and cats, and then leave them play by them selves with toys that were made in china, let them alone out in the yard that has been sprayed with lawn and garden insecticides, fertilizers, and poisonous plants, animals take in more toxins than they’d ever get from Milk Bones from just being in your home. Crap think of all the stuff you all just use on your carpets, cleaners that you use on your floors, ant and roach killers that you use under your counters. You all are taking this healthier food stuff way too far sometimes, hell a couple hot dogs are better than no food at all. Give them love, companionship, a place to live, food and medical care when they need it and most times they’ll live to a good old age. Do what you can afford for your animals, its better than them being out on the streets on their own.

[anonymously]

Because, different diets and foods agree with different dogs. There is no one perfect food for all dogs. Raw is not worth the risk, in my opinion.
Be glad your friend has found a food that his dogs appear to be doing well on.
Hope this helps:

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes

[anonymously]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+diet

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

Hope this helps:

By Klaus Loft, DVM
Angell Dermatology Service

Anyone who suffers debilitating environmental allergies tied to changing seasons, pet dander or household dust mites knows first-hand the misery of a scratchy throat, itchy eyes or painful rashes.

Not everyone knows, however, that our pets can experience similar allergic reactions — and other very bothersome dermatological issues. But our pets need not suffer in silence. Modern veterinary science has evolved such that advanced, comprehensive treatments are now available to treat a range of skin conditions.

Top pet dermatological issues

Our four-legged friends suffer from some of the same skin issues as we do — and several that we do not. The most common conditions we see at Angell include:

•Parasites, such as mites, fleas and mange (scabies)
•Infectious diseases, such as Staphylococcal pyoderma (“Staph”) skin infections, yeast and fungal infections and skin fold infections
•Systemic diseases, such as autoimmune diseases
•Skin cancer, such as Squamous cell carcinoma, cutaneous lymphoma, Mast cell tumors
•Allergies, such as flea allergy dermatitis, adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, etc.

All of these conditions can become serious and, if untreated, dramatically reduce quality of life. But the tremendous strides made in veterinary innovation, however, is very good news for our pets. Specifically, the testing and treatments for allergies now rivals human healthcare in its sophistication, quality of care and long-term health outcomes.

Unlike humans, dogs and cats cannot tell us about their dermatological health issues. So we as pet owners must look for the signs. The most common indicators that a pet is suffering from some kind of allergy involve frequent episodes of ear infections, red raised or open sores on the skin, constant licking or biting of paws or groin — sometimes causing wounds that will not go away.

Allergies present a particular challenge because there can be hundreds (even thousands) of potential allergens that impact pet health, from foods to pollen from grasses, weeds, trees, dust mites and more. Today’s specialty veterinary hospitals have access to the very latest diagnostic tests to get to the bottom of what’s ailing our pet. Among these tests is the Intra Dermal Test (IDT).

IDT is generally considered the gold standard of testing for identifying allergens that cause pets to suffer from chronic skin and/or ear diseases. IDT involves injections of a series of concentrated allergens into the skin to determine which of them generate allergic reactions in a given animal. The use of fluorescein — a chemical that illuminates the inflammation caused by the injected allergens in order to visualize the strength of individual reactions — is key to accurately diagnosing pet allergies, and is just one of the many ways veterinarians use new technologies to improve care and diagnostics.

The results of IDT (as well as a review of the pet’s medical history) can then inform comprehensive immunotherapy treatments to relieve suffering. Veterinary dermatologists rely on IDT to build customized treatment plans for patients called Allergen Specific Immuno Therapy or “ASIT” for short.

ASIT involves a series of injections specifically created for the allergic animal’s skin. These injections, of diluted allergens, are designed to make a pet less sensitive to their allergens over time. In most cases these injections must be continued for life to reduce symptoms, but they are highly effective. Seventy to 90 percent of pets experience a reduction in symptoms as a result of ASIT treatment. These treatments can be delivered even more easily via droplets under the tongue, perfect for pet owners who are squeamish about giving injections to their pet.

This treatment is very new to the North American field of medicine (both human and veterinary) and underscores just how far innovation in veterinary medicine has come.

When it’s time to see the vet

Many pet owners are understandably concerned about taking their animals to the veterinarian because the cost (to say nothing of the fear some animals experience when going do the doctor) may outweigh any perceived reduction in suffering. To help pet owners know when it’s time to bring Fido to the doctor I’ve compiled my “Top Ten” list of dermatological symptoms that should never be ignored:

•Intense itching of the skin (head shaking, running the face into the carpet, furniture, etc.)
•Biting at the skin that creates red, raw crusting areas of the skin
•Multiple ear infections (head shaking, odor from ears, scratching at the ears with hind legs)
•Paw licking or chewing and frequent infections of the skin in the webbed skin of the paws
•Staining of the fur of the paws and nails on multiple feet
•Reoccurring skin infections in the groin, under the shoulders, perianal areas (on or under the tail)
•Greasy scaling skin and/or fur with odorous skin
•Hair loss, or thinning of the fur
•Dark pigmentation of the skin that is chronically infected
•Sudden depigmentation of skin

Allergies and other dermatological issues can be as frustrating for pet owners and their veterinarians as they can be for pets. I encourage any pet owner whose animal is experiencing any of these symptoms to consult with their veterinarian.

[frani v]

after skin conditions, mainly scratching and inflammation we changed to raw food diet, but about 6 months later he broke out in a skin condition, we suspected that it was maybe a break in the cold chain but had no evidence. We changed him to a Scientific formula dry pellet food and after about one year his skin condition returned; we then made homecooked food

1.5 kg chicken breast
2 kg broccoli
2 kg carrots
2 kg butternut
This would last about 10days but after 7 months his skin broke out severly and it was inflamed ; the skin became flaky; cracked; like a cracked heel and skin broke open like a wound, we had a skin break out every 2months and our vet used cortisone injections….we have weaned him off cortisone and hes back on a fish/potato based scientific dry pellet food; hes on strong antibiotics; the skin biopsy revealed pyroderma; we have a specially prepared mixture of shampoo to kill yeast and bacterial infections; we changed his antibiotic after one month with no results; we now use a stronger one; we STOPPED giving him all human food; we have introduced ATOPICA which is a new drug that acts like cortisone with much less side effects – the skin condition is under his one armpit – hes an indoor dog who has cotton bedding washed with very little chemicals and no fabric softners.. ..I would appreciate all comments. thanks

[HoundMusic]

If you’ve been feeding Prey Model Raw levels of liver (5%) I’d suspect the cause of the Osteomalacia was due to an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus levels in the diet, as opposed to insufficient Vitamin D.

There is no doubt about what mineral imbalances are present, because the blood chemistry panel tests for everything. Both his levels of calcium & phosphorous were normal (Ca 9.2 & Phos 4.1), while he displayed no signs whatsoever of liver problems, which is what low ALP usually indicates. So by process of elimination, it was determined that his vitamin D levels were lacking. I have no reason to disbelieve the Vet, and my own research is only confirming what he told me.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[Spy Car]

If you’ve been feeding Prey Model Raw levels of liver (5%) I’d suspect the cause of the Osteomalacia was due to an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus levels in the diet, as opposed to insufficient Vitamin D.

Feeding 10% bone (as the PRM calls for) should keep Ca:P near the optimal 1.2:1 ratio. Unfortunately too many raw feeders are contemptuous of the need to maintain the correct mineral balance by carefully considering the amount of meat vs bones (and organs) are being fed, and too often too much bone gets fed as a result. Too little bone (relative to meat) can also be a problem with Osteomalacia.

I’d advise doubling down on your understanding of the edible bone content in the ingredients you are feeding with a determined effort put into balancing the calcium:phorosphus ratios in the diet, as this is the likely source of the problem.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi, do you follow Rodney Habib, Pet Nutrition Blogger on his Face Book page? he had a post about Rickets the begin of the year, he recommends adding tin sardines in spring water or oil to Raw/Cooked diet… https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib/?pnref=story
Sardines are suppose to be excellent & have vitamin D, B-6, A, C, B, Calcium, Omega 3 for skin, Magnesium, Iron…. & they’re cheap 69c a tin…Garlic is excellent to get rid of fleas, add some to diet, I live Australia & Garlic is added to most of our kibbles….. I hope Toby is feeling better soon…

[Karen B]

I do rescue and have had 3 large breed puppies with SIBO. All 3 have intermittent diarrhea and periodic vomiting. All 3 cleared with no reoccuramce after 6 weeks of Tylan powder aka Tylosin twice a day for 6 weeks and a raw diet. Dosage for the Tylan is:
<10 lbs: 1/16 Tsp BID on food
11-25 lbs: 1/12 Tsp BID on food
26-50 lbs: 1/8 Tsp BID on food
50+ lbs: 1/4 Tsp BID on food

As for the raw diet, Steve’s works well and they will deliver for free (rawpetfood.com)

[HoundMusic]

Thank you for sharing. Your story could be helpful to other raw/homemade feeders. Of course he decided to show symptoms on a Holiday! That’s what they do. Lol!

Ha! It’s a tradition in my household that dogs will get sick, specifically on Labor Day. My first Beagle, and two others aside from Toby, all needed emergency Vet treatment on that holiday. Not even joking.

But in all seriousness, you could have knocked me over with the ghost of a feather when the Vet said rickets. I am no raw novice and thought myself more Vit. D conscientious than that. I give raw yolks and butter along with bones specifically for the Vit. D content, and still, this happened, so I am hoping other raw feeders will read this and double check their diet plans…

ETA: Also wanted to add that I was giving cod liver oil way back when I began raw feeding, and it seems I’ll have to start doing that again, if my other sources aren’t providing enough.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[InkedMarie]

For the OP, if you’re still reading, I have experience with yeast with one dog.
The only thing that ultimately worked was a raw diet with no produce. What kind of raw were you feeding? If you were feeding a premade raw, they looking at buying grinds from Hare Today, Raw Feeding Miami, My Pet Carnivore, Reel Raw…..you can also do raw from the grocery store (meat/bone/organ)

[HoundMusic]

I’m a newbie to these forums, but am no novice to raw feeding – been doing raw in some form, either 100% or as a supplement for about 15yrs now. Since 2014, its been an all raw, prey model type diet consisting mostly of chicken quarters pork meat and neck bones, a variety of organ meats (but mostly beef liver), ground beef, egg yolks, turkey necks and occasional meats like lamb ribs, fish or ground turkey. They also get “extras” and leftovers that amount to a small portion of the diet.

That aside, I’ve been noticing all summer that Toby, an intact male Beagle who will be 11yrs in October, hasn’t seemed in the greatest health, but there was nothing specific I could point my finger at, so I chalked it up to age. Fleas have been plaguing him, which made me further suspect something was wrong, especially after treatment did very little to help.

Over the past few days, the fleas have been back with a vengeance untold, and this morning, out of the blue, Toby came back in from the yard, lay down in a corner, and wouldn’t get up. There were no other symptoms, just a sudden lameness that seemed to pass in a few minutes. But it was very worrying, and he seems to have lost some weight in the past few days, so I decided it was Vet time. That, and in May, he had a partial obstruction from a pork neck bone, and the Vet told me then the only abnormality of the blood test results was “elevated liver enzymes”. So of course, my first thought is possible liver failure going on here :/

It was no fun finding a Vet on Labor Day, let me tell you, but we seemed to get a competent one, for once. I did NOT mention Toby is raw fed, btw. Another CBC was done, and like before, everything came back smack in the middle of normal – except, his ALP levels (alkaline phosphatase) were once again high (@ 228). But with no other signs of liver abnormalities in the blood results, this Vet was as stumped as the first one was as to why it should be elevated, unless it was osteomalacia, which he said was odd in a dog Toby’s age.

When I asked what precisely that was, the Vet told me I already knew it by a more common name. Rickets. Or rather, it’s technically called rickets before the growth plates close, and osteomalacia is the adult version.

I may have emitted an expletive, because how else can a dog get rickets, save for a home made diet that has been lacking in Vitamin D? I haven’t had the greatest luck with Vets in my life, but I was grateful that when I did mention raw feeding, all I got was the Knowing Look, an admonition that Toby would not be the first raw fed dog he’d seen with rickets (!!!), and a prescription for Vitamin D tablets for dogs. He did not try to push kibble on me or say another word about raw… he didn’t need to 🙁

Don’t have the faintest idea where we’re going from here, but Toby is on his Vit D and does not seem to be holding the incident against me. I’ve had my stumbling blocks with raw in the past, which is why I usually limited it to supplementation, but this has to be the worst problem I’ve ever had diagnosed. And honestly, if not for the strain put on his health with the fleas, I would never have noticed anything out of the ordinary with this dog. He seemed perfectly healthy otherwise.

So. Just blowing off some steam at the day’s events, my own stupidity, and thought this might be interesting fodder for other raw feeders. And btw, I am told that bad teeth can be a dead giveaway symptom of rickets, as well, and yet, Toby has the best teeth out of everybody…

• This topic was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[Ritchy]

We’ve got two Cocker Spaniels that we would like to convert to a raw diet to address health issues – primarily skin, joint and teeth.

One is 13 and the other a rescue that we think is probably 8 now. Both are right at 34 lbs.

I don’t think I have the time/knowledge to make my own, so looking at commercial options.

I have a budget that allows me to afford $200/month, and I’ve narrowed it down to two options (I’m open to other suggestions), and wonder if I can get opinions from experienced raw feeders?

1) Go with a 50/50 mix of Nature’s Variety Instinct frozen raw and Nature’s Variety Instinct kibble.

Or

2) 100% Raw using Steve’s Real Food

I like the bite sized frozen option with both, which seems to make feeding easy.

I can find nothing but good reviews on Nature’s Variety Instinct, but just can’t afford the $400/month it would take to feed 100% raw.

Steve’s Real Food seems to get a few bad reviews here and there. Poor customer service notes, and the product seems to possibly be less consistent, and maybe doesn’t have the real bone that Instinct does. Also, it has higher than recommended fat.

Any suggestions – better to go with a 50/50 mix with good quality, or really, is Steve’s Real Food actually very good, and better to fully convert?

I’m not sure if a mix, really digests well and realizes the benefit of raw…

Any feedback/guidance is greatly appreciated!

[Joseph w]

I have a 4 year old bull terrier names Bodger. He is normally 65lbs but the last year he shot up to 72lbs. We lowered his food intake to 1 cup a day but he wasn’t losing any weight so we took him in for a blood test thinking he had a thyroid issue but it turned out negative and we suspect he has iiatrogenic Cushing’s from off and in use of prednisone for use with his skin issues. Now that we can no longer use prednisone we are trying to figure out a good diet for him. We use to use homemade raw which possibly worked better than what we have him on now but if it did it was slight. Before raw his normal food was Arcana or Orijen. It is now Avaderm which is the best he’s had since raw but we are no longer able to afford raw. One if his main skin problems is yeast infections on his feet constantly, ears somewhat often and around his anus sometimes and very rarely around mouth and eyes. I need a non yeast/starch/sugar/grain/ low carb kibble, with probiotics Which I plan in supplementing with a whole slew of home remedies and iver the counter products I’ve been researching. I was looking at wellness Tru food and it meets almost all the criteria except has about 40% carbs. Any ideas?

[Susan]

Hi Mandee, I cook Patches dinner meal separate then some nights when cooking for myself I add a extra potato & veggies for Patch as well & thenadd a tin of tuna or tin salmon in spring water drained & give 1/2 to Patch for dinner & put the other 1/2 in the fridge for the next night dinner…. I follow Rodney Habib on F/B he’s a Pet Nutrition Blogger. http://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib/?pnref=story
Rodney is always posting excellent post he just posted a raw balanced recipe made by Dr Karen Becker & Steve Brown that you can feed raw or cooked & buy all the ingredients at
supermarket… I sort of make the same recipe for Patch minus the ginger powder & hemp oil cause Patch has IBD 3-4 yrs ago if I feed what Patch is eating now he’d probably have diarrhea, its taken a few years for his stomach & bowel heal, I’m glad I didn’t listen to vets cause poor Patch would be stuck on a vet diet that made him smell itch & have acid reflux..
I buy lean beef mince then the next time I buy Pork mince I use to buy chicken but Patch has food sensitivities to chicken & gets red paws & itchy skin, I have a mini blender, I add some raw broccoli, parsley, kale, almond & flax meal about 1 teaspoon, turmeric powder about 1/2 a teaspoon & blend in the blender then add & mix thru the mince meat & add 1 whisked egg & mix thru then make 1 cup size rissoles & bake on a baking tray in oven… then I freeze them all when cooled & I also boil a cut up sweet potato, then freeze the boiled pieces as well then take out in the morning for dinner… I have to feed Patch 4 meals a day, at 7am he gets his 1 cup TOTW kibble then I give him a snack around 11am either some peeled apple or yogurt that’s sugar & fat free, then at lunch time, I either feed 1/2 cup kibble or scrambled egg on toast or today I tried Peanut Butter on toast for the first time, dogs love peanut butter..
but I have to watch his weight it just drops off so I have to make sure I keep his calories up he needs 1000-1100 calories a day… then at 5pm he gets his cooked rissole & sweet potato or 1 cup of his TOTW kibble, then at 8pm he has 1/3 a cup TOTW kibble…if he was a normal dog & didn’t have IBD I’d probably just feed 2-3 meals a day & I’d feed a raw diet….if he keeps doing well I was thinking of trying Raw Diet again its easier there’s no cooking….
There’s a few healthy cooks groups on F/B there’s, Monica Segal called-K9 Kitchen, Cooking For Dogs, Home Cooking For Dogs, Queeniechi Says Cook Homemade dog food & Canine Nutrition & Natural Health run by Cat Lane its more healthy supplements to feed when dog has illness..
.. but I love Rodney Habib the best & most of these people follow Rodney.. Good-Luck

[Theodore L]

I wrote to ZiwiPeaks about their food since we have a dog with IBD. The following is their email to me: Hi Theodore:
Thank you for your inquiry. We are thrilled that you are looking into feeding ZiwiPeak. We are passionate about pets, and strive to produce the best foods available for our furry friends! Many pet parents with dogs (and cats) suffering from IBS / IBD have found ZiwiPeak to be the perfect diet for their fur babies, due to the lack of fillers, preservatives, grains and other ingredients completely unsuitable to a carnivore’s digestive system. One of the ingredients that is included in ALL ZiwiPeak recipes is cold-washed green tripe. Green tripe is a powerhouse of nutrients, is extremely digestible and palatable and contains probiotics/prebiotics and digestive enzymes which help establish a healthy gut. I will be asking our Office Assistant to mail you a sample packet, and I’ve attached a guide for transitioning your dog. Please refer to the feeding calculator on our website’s homepage for the recommended daily serving. http://www.ziwipeak.com

Here’s some basic information about ZiwiPeak:

All ZiwiPeak recipes and formulas are complete and balanced as a daily diet for ALL breeds, and for ALL life stages. To determine your pet’s recommended feeding amount, please use the feeding calculator on our website’s homepage: http://www.ziwipeak.com

ZiwiPeak gives your pet the equivalent of a raw, wild prey diet and is made from over 95% raw meat and organs, including natural fat and bone. Our food contains no rendered meats or meat by-products. We add no artificial colors or flavors, no carrageenan, no chemical preservatives, no grains or potatoes, and no added salts, sugars, gelatin or glycerines or cheap filler ingredients. These ingredients cannot be efficiently utilized by a carnivore’s digestive system and can contribute to various health issues, including skin & coat problems, itchy skin and ears, yeast infections, allergies, obesity, kidney disease, IBD/IBS and diabetes. ZiwiPeak cuisine is over 95% digestible and extremely palatable to even the most finicky dogs and cats.

ZiwiPeak uses free-range, grass-fed meat raised on traceable, approved New Zealand farms, and seafood caught using ecologically-sustainable practices under New Zealand’s stringent, government-controlled, fish-management system. All meat and seafood we use must be free from added hormones, antibiotics, growth promotants and GMOs. Our added vitamins and minerals are sourced from reputable, traceable suppliers in the USA, Europe and New Zealand and Japan. We do not source any ingredients from China.

We add New Zealand Green-Lipped Mussel to all ZiwiPeak formulas to provide high levels of natural glucosamine, chondroitin, and omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids, and cold-washed green tripe, which provides important vitamins & minerals, digestive enzymes and probiotics needed for healthy digestion. We are relentless in our commitment to quality and care, operating under the most stringent health and safety standards. Every batch of ZiwiPeak must meet both our own in-house specifications and the highest international benchmarks. All ZiwiPeak products meet or exceed industry standards.

Please let me know if I can be of additional assistance,
Regards,
I did not write her name since I don’t have her permission. I have been transitioning one healthy guy to this food. I am not ready to do the IBD guy yet since he just had a setback and the Vet (Internist does not want any changes). I received a very fast response – I liked it!

[Susan]

Hi Kelli, I’m curious why didn’t you try the Canidae Pure Sea instead of the Pure Land? dogs with skin problems seem to do better on a fish protein then red meats, also Canidae is money back or you can change formulas, maybe change to the Pure Sea there’s also Pure Wild its Pork…
Inked Marie has suggested raw diet, Raw diet is the best to feed, start with a novel protein your boy hasn’t eaten much of or never eaten before…If your worried you can’t balance the raw diet properly then start looking a Pre-made raw diets..
Pitluv is also correct about yeast , its not the sugary carbs causing the yeast, you need to find out what food sensitivities he has & what in the environment he’s might be allergic too, that’s what causing his yeasty skin problem. Some dogs can eat rice, oats, barley, potatoes, peas chicken, beef etc & have no problems, then there’s dogs like ours that can’t eat certain starchy carbs, they start to react too whatever they’re sensitive or allergic too & start to smell like a smelly yeasty dog…
I also have a yeasty, smelly, itchy boy & I’ve finally worked out when Patch eats a kibble with barley, oats, wheat, corn, chicken there’s probably a few more foods as well, he starts to smell itch & have red paws-(chicken & wet grass), it’s sooo hard to pin point what foods are causing this when they’re eating a kibble.. Foods I thought were the problem years ago I have re-introduced this year & Patch is OK with them, your best off doing an elimination diet & not feeding a kibble unless you can get a kibble with just 2-3 ingredients, there’s “California Natural” Lamb & Rice it has just 3 ingredients.
http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products

Environment Allergies is way too hard to work out but there’s a test called “Intradermal Skin Test” here’s a video showing what’s done. this test is best done after you’ve tried eliminating foods on a raw or cooked diet, bathed twice a week & if he’s still having problems then its probably environment allergies.

As time goes by you will start to have an idea, what he’s sensitive/allergic too, keep a diary & write down times, dates & months when he’s having a flare, my boy has Seasonal Environment Allergies fine thru the winter months as long as he doesn’t eat any food/ingredients he’s sensitive too & then Summer months come & he’s a mess with hive like lumps all over where his fur is white & where his fur is white the skin goes red……
Baths are the best to relieve their itch & calm down the skin, I use Malaseb medicated shampoo, it works the best for Patches yeasty itchy skin & creams, I use Hydrocortisone
1% cream when his paws are red & around mouth & chin is red.. Every night before bed I check his whole body & apply the cream…
Also start adding tin sardines in spring water/oil to his kibble add about 1 spoon a day, make sure he’s getting his omega 3 fatty acids & vitamin C is suppose to work as an anti- histamine.. http://naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/Shop/2016/03/22/skin-allergies/

[Susan]

Hi Peter, I have the same problem with my dog Patch that has IBD & food/skin allergies, tooo many big poo’s on certain kibbles…..Look at the Protein % as well, too much protein can also make poos bigger & softer, when my IBD boy eats a kibble with 30% & over in protein, he does 4-5 poos a day & when he eats kibbles with fillers like corn, gluten meal, barley, oats, millet, he gets itchy smelly skin & does big sloppy poos.. when I feed a kibble with under 30% protein around 26% protein & grain free with limited ingredients, my boy does only 2 poos a day…Taste Of The Wild, Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb seems to suit him the best out of all the kibbles I have tried & Canidae Pure Land, he does 1-2 small poos a day. Both these kibbles have limited ingredients…

Just keep rotating different brands of kibble until you work out which brands your pup does the best on, then rotate between them, never just feed the same brand for years & years also start adding some fresh whole foods to his kibble as well…

Finally people are telling these pet food industries, we’ve had enough, we love our pets & we want the best for them & don’t want to feed a kibble with maize, corn gluten meal, beet pulp, tallow, by-product meats, preservatives, food colouring etc…..
Back in the 1940-1980 dogs were feed table scraps & those dogs were much more healthier, they were not feed processed kibbles with maize/corn, gluten meal & by-product meats, they ate what we ate…then in the 90’s Hills & a few other pet food companies started saying, Don’t feed foods we eat, it’s not good for your dog, your dog needs a well balanced diet dry KIBBLE & people followed like sheep & still to this day, there’s still some un educated people who say “Oh no, you can’t feed your dogs & cats foods we eat”…..
50 yrs later finally people like Rodney Habib (someone you should follow on F/B) is saying enough is enough to these pet food companies & educating people to feed fresh meats, fresh fruits, fresh veggies again like our parents did…..Back in the 50’s 60’s & 70’s, dogs didn’t get cancer & have all these food & skin allergies, dogs didn’t have as many health problems as they do today, why??
Watch a video Rodney Habib put together called “Maggies Story the Oldest Dog in the World” Maggie was a kelpie X Cattle dog that lived on a dairy farm, Victoria Australia, she wasn’t over vaccinated, she only had her puppy vaccinations, she wasn’t desexed until she was 14yr old cause a dairy worker brought his dog with him & Maggie fell pregnant, she lived till she was 30yrs old & just passed away in her sleep this year…she wasn’t feed kibble, you have to watch the video to see what she ate & drank…

Your on the right track, you’ve know about ingredients in kibbles, now start looking at healthy foods to add to the kibble, they did a study & found dogs that were feed 1 tablespoon of fresh foods added to kibble just 3 times a week reduced their chances of getting cancer, the post is on Rodney Habib F/B page, there’s lots of excellent info on Rodney F/B page https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib/?pnref=story

Have you tried Ziwi Peak Air dried raw?, I use the Ziwi Peak as treats when I don’t have any fruit like apple, water melon or raw almonds & I have just started my 5 month kitten on the cat Ziwi Peak & then when she loses her teeth I will be giving her a chicken wing once a week to clean her teeth, look after your pups teeth, small breeds are prone to teeth problems, give a raw chicken wing once/twice a week for breakfast, peel off the skin so there’s less fat…also email kibble companies & ask for samples..Ziwi Peak sends out samples http://www.ziwipeak.com Good-Luck