[wiscnorthwind]

The three foods I use are Breeder’s Choice Pinnacle, Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diets and Timberwolf. Natural Balance has no probiotics. Pinnacle and Timberwolf (previously Timberwolf Organics) use lactobacillus strains.

I am also immune compromised, and give my dogs human grade probiotics…Kyo-dophilus is a good one because is contains both Lactobacillus (predominant in small bowel) and Bifidobacter (predominant in large bowel) strains. I’ve used other brands as well…including Primal Defense for both myself and my dogs. Totalbiotics is brand designed for dogs that does not contain E. Faecium.

Here’s a good resource with people very knowledgeable about K9 GI issues….

http://www.epi4dogs.com/sidsibo.htm … scroll down for a list of probiotics and articles regarding Small Intestinal Bacteria Overgrowth a/k/a Small Intestinal Dysbiosis (imbalance). And a separate page on probiotics… http://www.epi4dogs.com/probioticstrains.htm … be sure to look at the label though because some of those listed do contain E. Faecium.

I’m currently dealing with some pretty severe GI issues in my female GSD after 15 months of high doses of antifungal drugs for a Blastomycosis infection. We saved her life, but her gut is a mess. She has a great deal of inflammation and is extremely intolerant of any food variations (does not even tolerate Purina HA hydrolyzed food), as well as very touchy about any amount of probiotics. I’m using DGL, Slippery Elm, Arabinogalactan with a small pinch of Kyodophilus, NAG, a small amount of 8x Pancreatin and Tylosin as we work towards healing her GI tract. She eats Natural Balance kibble double soaked (soak to absorb water, and then add a bit more water mix in the enzymes and slippery elm, stir an allow to soak some more…sometimes overnight) along with a bit of canned mixed in.

Two ready made supplements that might be helpful are Only Natural Pet GI Support or VetriScience’s Acetylator.

A good resource on supplements is Dr. Messonnier’s book, “The Natural Health Bible for Dogs and Cats”.

While I can tell you that I have had repeated success treating my own dogs’ GI issues. I am not a vet, so I highly recommend that you discuss the use of these supplements with your vet.

Best of luck to you.

[FreeholdHound]

This was posted a a Greyhound forum in regards to BDN (not my post)

My inquiry:
“Thank you. I found the product analysis, but need the nutrient profile, ie how much protein, calcium, phosphorous, magnesium, sodium, potassium, zinc, niacin, folic acid, iodine, pantothenic acid, iodine, riboflavin, thiamine, vitamin A, D & E, etc, etc, etc………………..you get the idea. It’s usually broken down into three different groups: “As Received”, “Dry Matter Basis” “As Served (Hydrated)”.
This analysis is crucial for dogs with kidney or liver disease as an example. I have a dog with kidney disease and it is vital to know the calcium/phosphorous ratio.”

Their reply:
“According to our latest analysis, the ca/ph ratio of the beef is 1.1:1. The Tripe Supreme has a ca/ph ratio of 1.78:1.
The ratio of the chicken is 1.56:1. All the calcium in our products is from natural origin. You can’t compare this with the studies out there based on products where calcium is added as a supplement.
We have our analysis split up in “As received” and “Dry matter”. I really don’t understand the “As Served” part. This all depends how much water is added by the customer. Some dogs like it a bit dryer, some a bit more moist.

We are looking for the highest bio-availability possible. Most artificial supplements that you see used in all kind of different dog foods simply don’t do the job. They are not readily available. This is also the reason we ferment the vegetables. The fermented vegetables make the calcium, vitamins, and the ingredients in general, highly bio-available.
We hear excellent testimonials from our customers on a daily basis. Older dogs that start playing again, dogs that get better muscle tone, long time ear infections that disappear, etc… the list is endless. Dogs that went from one vet to another for years, and get better after being on Big Dog Natural. This keeps us going and tells us that we’re doing the correct thing.

I know what your saying but I raised and owned Mastiffs for over 30 years. We have an old school approach of dog food. Use high quality ingredients and you’re good. I never raised my kids by over analyzing their foods but they were fed well and healthy. I really don’t believe there is a need for deep analysis when the ingredients are top quality. You only need supplements and additives when crap is used. We use the analysis as a guideline to formulate the product, not as a marketing tool. We just want a healthy dog food for healthier dogs.

Hope this help

Carl Van Bael
The Big Dog Natural Team”

[BlueEyedGirl]

Hello all –

I just left a message for the health and nutrition person at Now Fresh (Petcurean out of British Columbia, Canada).

According to the main site, their Large Breed Puppy rates 5 stars and according to their label, their calcium content is 1.3% and phosphorous is 0.8%. I requested the ratio for 1000 kcal (in a very bumbling way as I did not have the formula with me as I was at the pet store).

It also has the benefits of being grain free/ gluten free/ different protein than the NutriSource Large Puppy she is currently on.

Does anyone here have experience with this brand/formula?

Also, is it better to rotate product with small bags (8lb or less) or larger bags (14-16lbs).

We are all getting into a groove here and the new pup is loving the Nutri Source. We have seen a huge difference in her stools since we switched! Fortunately for us, she did really well so we have pretty much transitioned her straight into the 2nd food already from the Hills Healthy Advantage.

Thank you again for your support for a newbie!

D

[BernerdAd]

Hi sorting through all the good information — I’ve come up with a few questions
1) why did Grain Free Canine Caviar Open Sky make the list but Grain Free Canine Caviar Puppy did not?
2) None of the Blue Buffalo dry products made the list at all – why is that.

Ive created some spread sheets and in particular looked at calcium and there are not major differences? At what point do small percentage points — i.e. the difference between 1.2% and !.5% make a difference – I mean statistically what is the variance in these numbers when a food doesn’t make the list by only a few tenths of a %?

3) While numerical data is great isn’t there any sage wisdom out there for specific large breeds? I have Berners (bernese mountain dogs) – on the main website it says ”

“Bernese Mountain Dog owners feed a range of food from raw diet, homemade diets to commercially prepared kibble. No matter what type of feed, Berner owners seem to agree to feed a high quality food with relatively low protein level, approximately 18 -26% and a moderate fat content, under 16%. High protein/fat feeds (> 28%, >16%) can be ‘too much’ for many Bernese, especially those that are not very active working/performance dogs. Feeding a diet that is too ‘heavy’ in protein has been known to precipitate hotspot outbreaks in some Berners. A diet too high in fat adds unwanted pounds and in some cases causes diarrhea.”

So did one study on large breed puppies looking at critical variables protein levels, calcium etc debunk all the sage wisdom from breeders – some of which specifically notice concerns with high levels of protein over 30%

[losul]

KMS- I hadn’t followed what had been going on with your pup, so had to go back and read your entire history.

Antibiotic usage/overusage can become a vicious circle. You might want to google antibiotic induced colitis. The clostridium overgrowth is one thing that can cause colitis from the toxins they produce, although it’s very possible there might be multiple causes.

When you said your pup has had full-blown diarrhea the last 5 days, that would very much concern me. Are you checking to make sure he isn’t becoming dangerously dehydrated? Lift the skin on the back of neck/shoulders. When released, the skin should spring back to to normal fairly quickly. Check the gums, they should be pink. Press on the gums briefly and pink color should return them within a second or 2. Mouth should not be overly dry nor saliva very sticky.

If the severe diarrhea isn’t causing an emergency situation, I would slow down on what you are introducing to him, with the exception of the pro-pectin you mentioned you already have. The main ingredient is kaolin, a form of bentonite clay, that should soothe and coat the intestines. It is also said to absorb toxins and bad bacteria. But you should also be aware that kaolin will interfere with absorption of some antibiotics, and specifically trimethoprin (the TMP in the antibiotic combo you mentioned). Pro-pectin also has one form of encapsulated beneficial bacterium in it. Then I would wait for the outside lab results, and then maybe go for the colonoscopy if advised.

If I were you, I wouldn’t yet even think about adding raw meat to his diet until you can get his intestinal flora back in balance, although a homemade lightly cooked one could be the way to go for awhile….

[Angeldogs]

Yep….have one big guy here that is allergic to peas, white potatoes, venison, chicken and turkey. Confirmed by allergy tests by Spectrum Labs, which I highly recommend if you are struggling with food issues and skin rashes.

You’d think that I’d have an easy time of finding him a kibble? Nope. I have been doing ingredients research on every brand of food that is relatively easy to find…..shocking! Just because it states sweet potatoes……well, I keep finding potato gluten or white potatoes on the same list of ingredients. Or LID foods that list lamb or beef as the protein source with chicken fat in them.

So far, after two days of reading ingredients on websites, I found ONE kibble: Canine Caviar Lamb and Pearl Millet.

I’m currently feeding him raw ground beef mixed with Sojos Grain Free, and being careful about treats, which are mostly raw beef bone treats.

Really frustrating that the names of the food indicate limited ingredients, but they are NOT.

[losul]

Hi ARiem.

I think it’s important to arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible, so you are doing the right thing, but also as Patty said, very important to find a vet and/or nutrititionist. One that is at least willing to research and consult if not already knowledgeable about your dog’s condition him/her self. Your own knowledge combined with a good vet’s guidance can be very powerful stuff.

Your dog sounds like it’s near emaciated (about 30% underweight) and probably your suspicions are correct-slowly starving for nutrition. Also the Hill’s W/D is also very low in protein (17.9% dry matter average). I also think that your best bet can be with homemade meals-but only with the the help and knowledge that is very necessary.

There are many things believed to cause pancreatitis, hereditary predisposition, ingestion of any atypical meal-usually high fat is implied, gallstones or other obstruction in bile duct or pancreatic duct, hyperlipidemia, hypercalcemia, some medicines such as steroids, antibiotics, and immune suppressants, hyperthyroidism, trauma, etc. Each bout with pancreatitis might damage the pancreas further and limits even more the ability to produce digestive enzymes and maybe insulin also.

Again it’s very important to seek professional help, but it’s possible that your dog is one that is actually in dire need of digestive enzymes to survive and thrive. Has your vet ever discussed this or exocrine pancreatic insufficiency? If EPI is the case, he might need the “big guns” pancreatin (porcine or bovine based), rather than less potent or less efficient OTC plant based enzymes. The prescription enzymes can be quite expensive-middlemen, etc. but they are highly standardized and more tightly controlled. If you and your vet find your dog does need these, enzymediane cuts the middleman and I think are comparable to the prescription ones, albeit maybe not as tightly controlled, but MUCH cheaper. It’s saved lives for many that couldn’t afford the prescriptions. My new friend’s GS I think is one of those.

http://www.enzymediane.com/enzymecomparisonchart.htm

a very good site on canine exocrine pancreatic deficiency.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/

Hope this helps and wishing you and your dogs the best.

[lk]

More questions, I was reading that some give there dogs green super foods, Now I take green superfoods powders myself! can I give this to my dog instead of veggies? and how much?
50 lb dog eating 1 lb of food aday

[nationalguard88]

Hello, I’ve been learning a lot of good information about dog foods from dogfoodadvisor.com the past few months preparing for my new dobie. Found Dr. Tim’s for a reasonable price and no complaints. I lost my last baby, dobie, to cancer in June after 12 years. My fiancé and I have purchased this pup to raise together. I’ve been educating her on what’s acceptable and not safe. She feels left out, not being able to buy him treats locally. I’ve been doing all shopping online. Aside from making my own treats at home, are there any acceptable treats at petsmart she can buy? Like mentioned above. Zukes??? She just came home with a bag of pet botanicals. I said, you did a good job trying to read the ingredients, but look at the tiny print on the back. Product of china! Any help appreciated. Thanks.

[Golden_Lover]

My Golden is 8 years old and has recently been exhibiting some strange behavior. He has been eating the same food for quite some time now, but I’m beginning to wonder if he has some dietary deficiencies. He eats Canidae (not a senior formula). Lately, he has been stealing food off of the counter tops (bread, granola bars, etc.) and I suspect he has also been eating poop outside (sorry, I know that’s gross).

This food “stealing” isn’t totally uncommon, but it’s become much more frequent in the last few months. He is in good health, is at his optimal weight and gets good exercise. Besides what I’ve mentioned above, his attitude and behavior have not changed at all.

Help! Do we need a different food or should I have a vet investigate what might be happening internally? In other words, make sure there isn’t something going on that he doesn’t seem to have symptoms for? Do older dogs have special dietary needs that his food isn’t meeting?

Thanks!

[kms]

mfulton7 –

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback very much and need all the help I can get. I hope “more time” is what it comes down to – that would be a huge relief. I think I’ve read so many threads where people said they noticed a change in stool fairly quickly, that I assumed this was another dead end. It has only been 6 days since he has been on NVI Rabbit @ 100% (plus I changed the protein source), so maybe he just needs more time to adapt to the food and for his gut to heal. I will rule out parasites again while I’m waiting.

All –

When first starting out on perfect Form, does the stool get worse before it gets better? I gave him PF twice per day for the last 2 days and his stool got progressively softer. Last night, it was even to the point of runny – like a thick tomato juice. This morning, it was half formed and half soft again. I’m just wondering if this is normal or if there is something in it that doesn’t agree with him.

[kms]

I made a vet appt for this coming wed – will have a fecal sent out. Also, I started Perfect Form last night. He ate it right up – no issue with taste. So far, he has had 3 stools – all 3 softer/runnier than normal. But he has only had 2 doses, so it’s prob too soon to tell. As far as pumpkin, I’ll stop that today.

I like everything I’ve read about Honest Kitchen products and would be willing to try. Also have been reading about Primal, Darwin and NV frozen and freeze-dried raw. My biggest fear is that things could get worse at a critical time in his development. I’d also have to face both my vet and breeder – who aren’t really in favor of my direction so far (in terms of going to a kibble rotation diet and also for heading toward raw down the road). But I’ll keep reading and taking baby steps. Another reason why I’m so thankful for this forum.

The NVI Rabbit uses chicken fat as a preservative and it’s 4th on the ingredient list. So NVI Rabbit is not 100% chicken-free, but it’s fat instead of meat. I don’t know if that changes anything. In other words, can I still rule out “chicken intolerance” – or could that small amount of chicken fat still cause a chicken intolerance? I really hope his system just needs more time to heal, as Pattyvaughn sugggested. It’s just that I’ve never had a dog who didn’t have worms or diarrrhea at some point – and it has always been remedied quickly. So I keep worrying that it’s something more serious.

I’ve read on threads where people go back to grain-inclusive and the stools get better. Why is that? I thought grains were not good for a dog. The reason I went grain-free is because I thought it would be healthier and the food would be less likely to trigger an allergy.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by kms.

[Bella]

ChristyGH: I lost my beloved Shi-Tzu 6 days ago. She was fine, just at the Vet’s office 1&1/12 days before the horrible event started. I fed her her dinner about 6pm (ballpark time). She began vomiting within (again ballpark timing) 1-1&1/2 hours, which at first I wasn’t horribly concerned as she always had a very sensitive stomach, and it was all strictly her dog food that she vomited, I checked it (always)! By the 5th time I was getting concerned and sent a text to my Vet to let him know, as he always will advise me, she’s always been his special sweetly in his office. But I didn’t hear back and I continued texting a couple more times, with no answer back( I later found out he was out of the country) I then called the office for the Emergency Hospital number and took her there. Long story short, she passed away hours later. The ER Vet and the Vet at my regular Veterinary Office both looked at her blood work and point to toxicity. All her major organs were in complete failure they had told me at the Animal Hospital. ( to think she and i were playing with her toys that morning and she seemed fine, except after she ate her dinner from a NEW can of Hills Prescription W/D) The Vet is aiming at Hills Prescription WD, as she knew I just bought a case when I was there with her the night before, and it is what I fed her. (She was placed on it by my Vet after a surgery for Bladder stones and a mass of testing to figure out what could help her stone issue)
When the Vet called me Monday morning after reading the Animal Hospitals notes and tests, she wanted the number & letters on the bottom of the can, and all info anywhere on the case packaging. I also took pictures of it all, and as I did I was noticing every can was dented except one, and I NEVER use dented cans and I check them even for myself. Who knows maybe the one I opened was slightly dented and was missed, but a tally NONE should be dented, as it’s a known fact that a slight dent can cause air to get in a can.
The Vet came in the room to talk to me the night I brought her in ( I had her at home as I couldn’t handle not having her with me, she went everywhere possible I went. I miss her terribly, I’m so upset and very sad over her death.) when we talked I brought up doing a necropsy on her, as there was no good reason she died, the Vet said she was going to talk to name about getting permission to do one, so we were both in the same page. I asked if I could stay to observe…it’s very unsettling to know your beloved “little girl” died, and you have no good reasons …yet.
Necropsy was done, tissue samples should be back in about a week and Toxicity should be back in about 2 weeks. Hoping to have answers then….. But this is so unsettling… I’m depressed as can be, she was my little baby girl, she’s all I had, she was the best company anyone could ask for.. I’ll keep updating as I learn more…

If anyone else has had experience with this dog food > Hills Prescription W/D < PLEASE let me know…it’s worth it to sign up and post on here…

Now I need to decide where I’ll have her cremated and have services for her…

#Annie, I love you more than anything and will miss you forever~ love Mommy.many kisses and hugs~

[Molzy]

First off, thanks for adopting a senior dog! She is one lucky girl! Sorry to hear you’re having troubles.

I have been struggling with a similar issue with a dog we adopted in July, Quincy, a year-old cattle dog. While Quincy isn’t officially diagnosed, it is the best answer I’ve come up with for his symptoms (my vet is not concerned because he has never lost his appetite or shown other negative effects…he just swallows/gulps obsessively during an “attack”). His attacks will last multiple days once started, and seem to get worse due to a build up of gas from swallowing air (he will get bad gas and the belches after a day or so).

Patty, we tried Braggs and we were still having issues. Quincy gets 1 cup of Honest Kitchen mixed with almost two cups of water. I was adding a little over a tablespoon, was I adding too much? We did this almost every day for over a month.

We are now trying Pepcid (but I don’t want this to be a long term solution – I just needed a week or two to calm down and stop feeling defeated by this thing!). No major attacks, a little swallowing here and there. I don’t think it’s the miracle I was hoping for, so I will probably wean him off after he’s been on it for a week (he is 40lbs and gets half a tablet, 30 minutes before each meal).

He is definitely better since switching him to a wet food, on kibble he will have MAJOR attacks where he gulps until vomiting. The severity and frequency has decreased since August when we switched him to canned food. We also add a probiotic/enzyme to his food, but if anyone has a recommendation for a specific brand I would appreciate it!

I’ve read that smaller meals spaced out is best. I have hesitated to try this only because I don’t know if my job will always allow me to come home at work, but I will probably start trying that next week, since right now I work 5 minutes from home.

Good luck, it is very hard to watch them when they aren’t feeling good!

[OhBichonPlease]

I definitely think you should switch to higher-quality foods… for the picky eater especially – what little he will take down needs to be properly nutritious and high quality since he isn’t eating enough/well. I would transition slowly to minimize upset or selective eating of familiar kibbles and try fasting for a day with no treats or extras [I know it’s hard] before introducing small amounts of a new kibble. You can even try providing 2-4 different kibbles at a time – maybe something in the mix will appeal to your dog especially. You may want to look for a kibble that has a slightly higher fat content or salt as both of those are appealing and will encourage eating and may help get your picky eater to a better state of health. The different ingredients can help your dog adjust to new foods better and will only help/improve nutrient absorption and gut health provided there are no allergies/intolerances. Many local pet shops can provide free samples so you can try adding small amounts of new kibbles without spending much money. Adding some wet food or high quality meat toppers might also entice and encourage better eating habits. You may have to experiment, but tuna, salmon, plain cooked shredded meats, yogurt, canned pumpkin and other pantry items may help establish better habits and digestive health. Warmed peanut butter can also be drizzled over kibble instead of mixing and clumping it up in the bowl. Sometimes piles of food can be intimidating and food may need to be spread out more. Or your dog might not like her food bowl for some reason – try switching to a cereal bowl or a pie tie and see if that helps. Some dogs like to be sneaky eaters so hiding food in several places or the putting the dog bowl in unexpected places or outside might help. Feed your dogs separately [and maybe even at different times of the day], feed well [high quality kibbles and nutritious toppers/extras/treats] and congratulate, encourage and reward with enthusiastic praise every single time your picky eater takes a mouthful of food and actually swallows it.
You may also try making your own dog treats out of the above ingredients or buying canned food and instead of serving it at room temperature or warmed, try freezing it in ice cube trays giving those to your dog on a towel or an easily cleaned floor. Laying down a special mat or picking a quiet corner and acting like a mealtime is very special may also help her your picky dog more excited about dinner. Some dogs really like munching on frozen foods even when they won’t touch them at other temperatures.
When my picky eater isn’t eating I give her a little pepcid [we suspect semi-regular heartburn] and then act really excited about opening a can of high quality wet dog [or occasionally cat or puppy – vet’s recommendation for getting food in when nothing else works.] The smellier the better [canned green tripe works wonders but is best fed outside. I also had amazing luck with small cans of Weruva – it looks/smells like human-grade baby food and is expensive, but the quality is obvious and the food was eagerly consumed both wet and frozen].] I give her a little straight out of the can right off the spoon so she feels like it is human food and a nice treat and then drop some in a dish with kibble. I won’t mix it in anymore because too often she has shunned to food once she discovers the hidden kibbles and I don’t like throwing food out [the neighborhood cats have gotten very friendly since her leftovers get tossed on the pavement for them – I am sure it’s better than whatever they are fishing out of the trash, small birds, squirrels, etc]. But sometimes she will eat up the wet food in one section and then start eating mouthfuls of kibble afterward – progress!
When our girl is especially reticent about eating kibble we move her food into the room where we eat dinner and hang out in the evenings and sometimes have to pretend to eat kibble, hand feed her or toss pieces onto that evening’s dinner plate to get her to start eating. Once she realizes she is indeed hungry she usually goes back to her bowl and only needs encouragement to keep eating [Good girl! What a good dog you are for eating kibble! Good dogs eat their food!] every other bite. She still looks at us for encouragement while eating and I sometimes have to tap to bowl or shake it to remind her there is still food to be had.] I give her a half cup of food at a time and she never eats more than half at night and usually doesn’t empty her bowl entirely until the next afternoon. [She is slightly less than 15lbs and eats approx 300-400 calories a day in food and treats, as far as I can figure.]
I had never met a dog previously who didn’t like and look forward to dinner time, but our rescued Bichon needs to be coaxed and encouraged to eat almost every bite, every day.

Good luck, keep experimenting with higher-quality foods and ingredients and don’t give up!

[OhBichonPlease]

Our rescued Bichon went from going once usually, sometimes twice a day [sizable pile, lighter brown and a bit floppy sometimes] on a low-quality corn based kibble to pooping 2-3 times a day [mostly dark brown, harder/more solid, slimmer and well-formed] on Wellness Core. We spoiled her a bit at first and she gained three pounds during her first month or two with us. She lost that weight easily when we switched to a high quality grain free kibble and nicer dog treats crumbled into tiny pieces. As far as bowel movements during the transition and continuing now, most of the time it is easy out, but sometimes she squat-walks for a minute or two until she feels like everything has passed. She recently went on a hunger strike [and lost a half pound in about a week] and didn’t eat kibble for a week straight and hardly touched treats, human food or stinky, delicious wet food until after giving her some Pepcids. [I created a topic about doggie heartburn in another section on this forum and am curious about other people’s experiences with food refusal due to heartburn or indigestion.] Things are back to normal and settling down digestion-wise, but we are interested in rotating her food and trying different brands and are starting on Dr Tim’s grain free. I am curious to see what this does to her stool volume [never a sentiment I thought I would have]. I too though stool volume would decrease due to her grain-free kibble, but put down her increased regularity to finally getting proper nutrition with quality fiber sources. During her week of not eating, I started making ice cube treats [out of necessity to preserve what was being laid down, but not consumed] made with Wellness 95% salmon and organic canned pumpkin – she loves these frozen goodies [gets 1-2 cubes most days] and I will probably continue to provide them for her for the benefits to skin & coat and digestion. I may even add a bit of yogurt as I understand that freezing doesn’t affect probiotics and I want her to have as wide a variety of helpful gut flora as possible. [As a note, she was pooping more before we started adding pumpkin to her diet. Since she has been getting her ‘salmon pops’ and eating kibble again more regularly – but never yet enthusiastically – she has continued with going 2-3 times a day and never in the morning anymore, curiously.]
Don’t get me wrong – I am happy to see stuff moving through regardless or quantity or frequency, but I read lots of posts where people discussed decreased stool volume and that has not been my personal experience either, so far.
You might also try adding canned pumpkin or frozen or fresh green beans to your dog’s food – that will provide fiber helping pull stuff through and also contributing to a feeling a fullness. It may make your dog poop even more though.
Dog treats can be a major culprit in weight gain, so you may want to switch to treating with toys/playing, smaller treats with healthier ingredients, carrot slices, bones for chewing or something like the Lickety Stik – a great liquid treat [in multiple flavors] with a roller ball dispenser [perfect for training and keeping pockets clean and smell-free]. There are hundreds of licks per bottle and it is super-low calorie – they claim only 1 calorie every 10 licks so you can still indulge your dog without extra/empty calories.

[OhBichonPlease]

I would also suggest [when your dog has settled a bit] taking her to a smaller pet store [Petco and Petsmart might be a bit overstimulating, especially during the holiday season] and showing her several different toys. She may enjoying browsing the aisles with you and may even pick out her own toy that appeals to her. We pull things off the rack for our girl to inspect; when she tries to take it from us or looks excited, we tend to get it because we want her to play.
There is also a toy that may bring your dog some comfort – I think it was designed for weaning puppies, dogs with separation anxiety or mourning pets, but it is a plush toy with a warming pack and a “beating heart” powered by a battery. There is a popular brand available at online retailers and Amazon called SnugglePuppy from Snuggle Pet Products. It is kind of expensive [you may be able to find another brand/model for less] for an experiment, but it may comfort her and help her transition her to her new environment and to liking toys/playing.
I would also recommend wrapping a plush toy in an old tshirt or stuffing it inside a sock that has your scent on it – you’re her pack/people now and she wants to smell like you so she won’t have to be alone again. [Our girl likes to jump in our dirty laundry and thrash under our bedcovers after her bath, probably thinking we won’t recognize her. She also takes off her Doggles whenever my fiance reenters the car]. Making the toy smell like you by putting it in the dirty clothes hamper will help reinforce that this toy belongs in the household, toys are fun and playing with you is a nice thing to do. Some non-plush toys can also have food smeared on them or treats stuffed inside to help get entice her to interact with them.
Playing is a great way to bond with your dog and give her a chance to exercise and feel comfortable inside in her new surroundings. Keep trying to teach her to play – no dog is too old to learn to have fun.
The most important thing to remember is to go slow and have a really positive attitude when dealing with toys – even if your dog’s behavior is upsetting – don’t get upset! Dogs read our emotions and getting worried and stressed over her reactions might be causing more of an issue. If you feel like crying over her reactions, take a break, take her for a walk and then just try to cuddle with her and her toy quietly. Rub her and pet her with the toy if she doesn’t act scared. If she wants it in her crate, let her have it there. Maybe she wants a toy to cuddle and protect and you could get her another toy for tossing, pulling and playing with you in the living room.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi BlueEyedGirl-

First, if you want to upload a picture as your avatar you need to go to gravatar.com. You can also add a picture to a post using photobucket. Copy and paste the image link into your post and it should show up.

Now onto the food…Wellness Core Puppy is a great food, but it is a BIG step up from Hill’s. To play it safe, you might want to gradually step up the quality food. You could start with Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy. Nutrisource has a reputation of being an easy food to switch to. Then you could transition to Wellness Core. 3-4 foods in a rotation is good. That would be my minimum. If your dog doesn’t have intolerances or allergies then you could find many foods to keep switching through.

Because you don’t know if she is a large breed or not, I would play it safe and feed large breed puppy appropriate food. Feeding lower calcium won’t hurt a small/medium breed dog. In my opinion, it’d be better to err on the side of caution.

I think that the amount of calcium that they get from treats is pretty negligible. However, if you are very concerned, I think dehydrated/freeze-dried tripe would be a good choice. Tripe has balanced Ca/P and I believe it is lower in calcium than some other treats. Freeze-dried liver may also be good.

There are more knowledgeable members on here that can give you more feedback and correct me if I’m wrong. I hope this was helpful to you. Have fun getting ready for your pup. It’s so exciting getting ready to bring a new dog home. 🙂

[BlueEyedGirl]

Hello –

Thank you all for the wonderfully intelligent conversations and to HDM for curating the list of LB Puppy Dry Foods. I have tried to read as much as I could, but with over 50 pages, it is quite overwhelming. I apologize in advance if my questions are redundant.

We are hoping to adopt a Boxer/ Great Dane (?) (Maybe Catahoula Cross?) mix from a local rescue this weekend. (I was hoping to be able to add her picture to my profile to show off her blue eyes, but I can’t seem to figure it out right now).

The food she is currently on is Hills Healthy Advantage Large Breed which appears to be borderline for Calcium, but it rates quite low for quality (Two Stars. oh – the irony that it is considered a vet exclusive product).

She was placed on this food as she had as her foster mom says “a wicked case of diarrea” when she came into her foster home. According to her foster mom, she seems to be doing quite well on this food and she has requested we keep her on it for the next couple of months.

After reading all of the information here, I am wanting to transition her to a higher quality food for the remainder of her puppyhood. (She is currently 38.3 pounds and leggy with pretty marled markings at just four months, thus I am leaning to the Great Dane mix).

I have a few questions –

1) I am considering the Wellness Core Puppy as the beginning food to transition her to. Although we transitioned our previous dogs with foods for interest, is there another medical reason to switch out the foods? Is a 3-4 food rotation sufficient?

2) If it turns out that she is NOT a large breed mix (maybe Catahoula), is there any danger or adverse results from feeding a medium calcium food?

3) Are there any training treats that are recommended for large breeds that follow suit with the calcium content?

Thank you so much for your help. There is so much to collect in time for her arrival on Saturday! I want to be prepared. Any advice you can offer is appreciated!

D

[Elcy]

It really tans my hide that this site promotes the use of canola oil as a harmless and even beneficial ingredient based on the advice of ONE site(snopes) that has reviewed “urban legends” with questionable bias in the past. I could cite dozens of other sites that speak to the dangers of this highly refined product, why are all of those being ignored by Dog Food Advisor? Since when is a “food” that has to be BLEACHED and DEODERIZED to be made edible considered healthy? Not to mention the very high (80%) GMO content!

Read the below article, funny that snopes only quoted a small portion of it and left out the warnings.

“But here’s the main problem with canola oil, and why you should think twice before using it – canola oil is highly refined. Like high fructose corn syrup that is not “corn sugar” once it is extracted and processed, canola oil also has to go through a similar regimen. The oil is removed by a combination of high temperature mechanical pressing and solvent extraction. Traces of the solvent (usually hexane) remain in the oil, even after considerable refining. Canola oil goes through the process of caustic <b>refining, bleaching and degumming</b> – all of which involve high temperatures or chemicals of questionable safety. And because itis high in omega-3 and 6 fatty acids, (11% and 21% respectively) which easily become rancid and foul-smelling when subjected to oxygen and high temperatures, it must be <b>deodorized</b>. The standard deodorization process removes a large portion of the omega-3 fatty acids by turning them into trans fatty acids. The Canadian government lists the trans content of canola at a minimal 0.2 percent, but it is speculated that they are actually much higher due to the processing. This processing is much different from that of olive oil, which most often is first cold pressed to reduce the oxidation of the oil. Harmful chemicals and fatty acid-altering processing means do not occur with olive oil as they do with canola oil.

Another major problem with canola oil is that 80% of the acres sown are <b>genetically modified canola</b>, and it’s not the GMO type of product that has been developed for the benefit of the species of plant, but for the benefit of the herbicide. First introduced to Canada in 1995, genetically modified canola has become a point of controversy and contentious legal battles as Monsanto’s “Roundup Ready” herbicide allows farmers to drench both their crops and crop land with the herbicide so as to be able to kill nearby weeds (and any other green thing the herbicide touches) without killing their crop. The effects of this herbicide on the environment as well as the health of individuals who consume the products have been questioned. (Read more on pesticides and herbicides here.) Superweeds have begun to develop, and much like the overuse of antibiotics, eventually a resistance to the chemical builds up, and a more powerful one must be used. Monsanto is already working on a stronger herbicide (called SmartStax) which they hope to debut soon.” http://www.drgangemi.com/2011/07/canola-oil/

[ShelterGirl]

Just so you know wet dog food is very bad for your dogs teeth and I would not recommend it as a daily diet. It should be used more as a treat or as a source for hiding pills. It increases the amount plaque build up on there teeth which will increase the rate of decay, especially for small dogs who are already known for having bad teeth. Not to mention it also could lead to obesity. Certain kinds of dry dog foods can be very nutritious and keep your dog healthy you just have to look at the ingredients.

[voxleo]

Sadly, Natural Balance going over to the Dark Side of the Force with Del Monte has completely buggered my trust in the brand after my boys were doing so well on their Ultra and/or Synergy formulas. Ever since I learned of the merger, I have been hypervigilant about any signs of food sensitive issues with both dogs (some kind of shepherd with long hair mix-mutt and our runt-y most likely pitbull/staffordshire we think).

As of the last bag of food, the Natural Balance Ultra, I noticed that our Pit has had more than one issue of vomiting and notable signs of apparent nausea (lots of lip licking, less than energetic), and the Shepherd mutt has had some issues with stool that starts okay and then becomes runny, but not quite full blown diarrhea. If it had been just once, I would have just assumed it was them eating something out of the trash or garden that they oughtn’t have, but twice or more, and it starts to become a THING. Add that to the fact that they seem notably less interested in the food (they are free feeding dry kibble, and they don’t eat with enthusiasm but more like obligation) and that the mutt has been acting like HE has a tummy ache when its usually the Pit with the sensitive stomach, and now I have enough reason to switch from the NB line, because I don’t trust Del Monte to maintain the standards with it.

What dry kibble can I get that will approximate the ingredients that were in the Synergy? I think that was best since it really seemed to cut down on the number and size of the poops, which were always firm and never gooey like the second half of them are now. and the Pit didn’t spend all day itching and licking paws and shaking his head the way he does whenever he eats cheap food. He has had an increase in ear itchiness lately, and lots of butt licking and even the mutt seems to be chewing on himself more nowadays, but the last two bags have been Ultra, not Synergy, so that may have something to do with it.

Still I would prefer to stay away from anything that is mass produced by a corp that spent millions to oppose GMO labeling along with Monsanto, and now the Natural Balance is on that list, so Synergy is out too. Looking for a replacement kibble from a brand that is at least popular enough to be carried in Petco or a feed supply chain that isn’t going to have boutique hours only, and one that is sold in LARGE bags of at least more than 25 pounds, preferably more. I figure similar makeup will have similar results with the boys and I’d like to have similar effects as the Synergy, which did nice things for their coat and their apparent digestive tract tolerance, resulting in smaller neater and fewer stools, and gave them lots of energy and they didn’t have to eat a ton of it. I don’t mind if it has rice, as that seems to suit them well enough without issue.

Anyone got a good replacement suggestion that doesn’t cost 85 bucks a bag? I am exhausted from the researching and have no idea where to begin now. It doesn’t need to be ultra premium, but should be at least a 3 star choice. It would be easier to pick something to replace it with if I understood what was good about the Synergy in the first place beyond the effects, but I just have no idea why it worked, it just did.

Curse them for selling out!

(After reading more articles on that acquisition, I am even more nervous about the direction that the NB brand may be headed. There was one article that had some scary wording in it concerning the awareness that people would pay more for foods that APPEARED TO BE better for their animals. It almost seemed to be a deliberate avoidance of what it actually WAS as opposed to how it LOOKED to be. The emphasis was all on how they wanted to capture a bigger share of the market and were interested in the premium lines because of what consumers would be willing to spend, with no focus at all on providing quality that would sustain that. I think it was a money grab, and that means that they will maximise it by cutting costs wherever possible too. And I’ve noticed in the reviews on their foods over the last two months, there are a lot of dogs with similar vomiting, diarrhea and lethargy that had been feeding NB for years without that happening. I can’t risk it.)

[theBCnut]

Puppies get roundworms from their mother, so he likely had them pretty much since birth. There should be no conflict with slippery elm and enzymes and probiotics. I can’t tell you whether using just slippery elm or Perfect Form would be better. I know that Perfect Form has several different beneficial ingredients, but I don’t know if that means better or just different. I really think that I would lean toward Perfect Form for your situation, but that might be because you have already tried so many things that I feel like maybe a little of several different things may be more likely to have one or two that actually help. But that may be just a feeling, not reality.

How is the transition coming along?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by theBCnut.

[karink]

Hello everyone! I have an 11 week old lab puppy I’ve had for two weeks. After reading all the great information on here, I decided to feed him the Annamaet Salcha. So far everything is great.

My question now is regarding peanut butter. Is it safe to give puppies, and if so, what kind and how much. I’m having a lot of issues with him barking in his crate when I leave for work and would like to give him a kong toy with frozen peanut butter hoping it will keep him busy during the first moments that I leave, that way he won’t be so anxious.

First I want to know if it’s safe for puppies, and then if giving him a small amount (to fill the kong) daily would off-set any of the calcium / phosophorus %. It would then defeat the purpose of all the research done with the food.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. He barks forever and I want to find something that will calm him during my absence. Can’t be toys (other than kongs) as he already chewed one up and swollowed a little piece the other day! Almost had a heart attack – and he hasn’t even starting teething yet! I’m in SO much trouble!!! LOL!!

[BluesMom]

Hello all… My dog has started stretching excessively. He always does the “bow” (front legs out, bottom in the air) and his joints pop sometimes. Not his hips. I have two questions:

1. What is the deal with excessive stretching? I have done some research and some say he wants to play or it is a calming behavior, but I have read somewhere that stretching all the time can mean he is stiff, but I want to know why he would be stiff. He is 1 1/2 years old. Anyone have any info or links to articles I could look at?

2. What is with the joint popping? It is only when he does that particular stretch. Does joint popping lead to arthritis? I’d appreciate any advice or articles on this as well.

Thanks for all the help. Sometimes I think I am just an over-concerned dog mom, but I just want to make sure he has the best life possible!

[Rahat]

Deer meat is a great food for your dog. Dogs are classified as carnivores. There is a mere .2% difference between dog and wolf DNA. If we realize that our dogs are so closely related to wolves, then it is a short step to understanding our dogs should eat like the wolf rather than eating junk out of a bag.
An ideal meal for our domestic wolves, also know as Lacy dogs, is raw on-the-hoof deer meat. Many hunters have deer meat left over from previous year, and that is fine to feed to your dogs, but today I am writing about feeding the deer that is freshly shot and ready for the dog to eat.
There are two main ways to feed fresh deer. The first is to feed it like the dogs would eat in the wild. You can just pitch it out and let the dogs chow down. This is known as prey model feeding. It is the optimal diet for your dogs. However, not many people have the desire to see a partially chewed deer laying in their yard. So the alternative is to spend time preparing the deer to be consumed by the dog. The above article made by – Betty Leek.

[jas84047]

Thank you Sandy and Marie for the quick responses and opinions. I’m very happy to get them. I decided to order some Probiotic chews for my gassy dogs and stick with the Sr Whole Earth Farms. I like the info on Whole Earth Farms Puppy protein but worry about my less active Sr dogs getting any fatter. Especially my Golden/lab mix that has thyroid cancer and cannot regulate it well anyway. I don’t know. I now think I will rotate in another feed in as well but mostly stay on the Whole Earth Farms. I already order online- due to the amount of food we go through (3 dogs/3 cats– speaking of cats, how come there’s not cat food advisor?) and I can find the better deals on the good foods online. I will await the re-review of Premium Edge before deciding on that one as a possibly add-on. Fromm, Merrick Classics and GF are a little out of my price point, Victor I have a hard time finding anywhere -including online, I think right now I’m leaning toward Healthwise chicken/oatmeal, Canidae chicken/rice, or Chicken Soup….
Sound about right? Now which of these last 3 would you go with to add into rotation?

Thanks again for all your help!

[Nancy M]

Dear Betsy Greer,

Sorry that I have not seen a particular post back to me, until just now, actually quite by accident. I was trying to follow back up with you about a different response you had given, and I saw one I had not seen before. Don’t know what happened, but anyway…….

I was trying to find the post that specifically mentioned the Nutrisource food you had suggested because I thought for sure you had recommended the ADULT formula of the Chicken and Rice. So I was wanting to double-check that and sure enough that’s what it said. So my question is, why the ADULT formula and not the puppy chicken and rice? Surely they must make a puppy formula? Either there’s a specific reason for that, or it was a “typo” or something??????? Please explain.

Addressing your response that I had not seen before……thanks so much for your obvious concern of this puppy! Here’s an update.

It’s been two weeks today that the meds were started. It has been an upside and downside battle, to put things lightly. But all in all, I think he’s doing quite well, most of the time. We’ve had to adjust/add to some of his meds and stay in close contact with the vet. As I may have mentioned, I have this puppy 3 – 4 days a week while my daughter is working, then on Thursdays, she takes him home until Sunday night again. This last Thursday, he had finally turned the corner, and the stools, while being very large and semi-frequent, looked completely normal. However, over the weekend, he regressed again, for whatever reason. Started him back on the Albon again last night, even though a fecal on Saturday did not show any Coccidia. But vet said it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s not something still there. So now today, I have him back again. He had a good night and as of this morning, stools look back to normal. But in my opinion, I think he still would benefit from a food change, as soon as he shows solid signs of stability. That’s why I was re-visiting puppy food recommendations, particularly those who have pretty consistently recommended this NUTRISOURCE. Problem is that my daughter is not anywhere close to where I am as far as being picky about dog foods. So, I’m probably fighting a losing battle here.

I also have suspicions that this little pup is being adversely affected by changing households like this…..mine is quiet and relaxed; being just me (and I’m a 62 year old single retiree) and my 3 year old Sheltie (who just absolutely adores this little puppy). Hers is full of action and rather chaotic, from being a working mom, 2 young children and a farm to manage. I firmly believe it is all adding way too much stress to an already stressed out puppy. I intend to speak with her and urge her to consider finding another home for this pup, once he is well and stable (if that can be achieved). I don’t want a puppy (or grandchild) to raise, and even though I’m glad to help out temporarily, I doubt this is going to be temporary…..at least anytime soon. I think this puppy needs and deserves a stable, better suited environment. Anything short of that is going to delay his recovery as well as affect his overall security and emotional development. Obviously, my daughter has either forgotten what all is involved in raising a puppy and/or quite likely, never tried to care for one with these issues. It’s very tough! Been there – done that, more than I ever wanted, but what else can you do? You just get through it! Unfortunately, I think other issues in her household are making it even tougher and longer!

So, while the pup is doing very well at this time, there is a lot more to do and think about here. I’ve certainly got my work cut out for me. Thank you so much for being concerned and giving your valuable advice.

[Sully’sMom]

A coworker is getting a large breed puppy in Dec/Jan (yellow lab); my own lab is now 15 months and off puppy food, but I found HDM’s list invaluable. Since this thread is now 50 pages (!), can anyone direct me conveniently to the list so I can give it to my friend? Is there a printable version? Thank you!

[2pups]

Hi guys,

maybe slightly off topic but just wanted to say thanks to all of you posting helpful info on large breed pups. I got a ridgeback pup 5 weeks ago and within a couple of days what seemed like nothing turned into one of his legs beginning to bow and knuckle over. 2 days after that it was breaking my heart to watch him walk. The vet suggested royal canin as a premium dog food, thanks to this site I found out that its only the price that makes this product premium. For 2 days my pup ate this and showed no improvement. After researching the cause of my puppy Dozer’s problem switched him to Holisitic Select for large breed puppies. Within a couple of days there was already improvement showing and within 1 week he was a different happier puppy. His leg is now 100% and his coat feels like silk instead of bristles. So thanks again.

[RescueDaneMom]

Mercman and Patty- I remember a conversation way back in the thread where someone mentioned to HDM that Kirkland’s had changed ratings and had been downgraded from 4 stars. I think it used to be on the original list but was taken off when HDM revised it because it was no longer a 4 star food.

Mercman- if you really want to use Kirkland’s, reach out to the manufacturer to see if you can get the actual percentage of calcium in the food rather than the minimum and we can see if it’s appropriate for large breed growth.

[theBCnut]

Growth spurts don’t come from protein level. There is an old myth going around that won’t die, because ignorant breeders perpetuate it, that high protein causes too fast growth in large breed dogs. This has been disproven. Period. The real culprits are overfeeding and too much calcium. This has been proven. Period. I’m relatively positive that one of the links that Hound Dog Mom provided on the first page of this thread was to the study summary where these facts were proven. However, you can google it for yourself, just google “calcium levels for large breed puppies” and you will get a few different studies about it. If you want to go at it from the other direction, google “protein levels for large breed puppies.” Try looking for actual science rather than some breeders opinion though, there are definitely articles supporting every opinion under the sun. If in your research, you find that Hound Dog Mom is right, then by all means share what you have learned with your breeder. She needs more current info.

[Nancy M]

Dear “lovemycanines”,

Yes, i was told that also, and I have done some extensive reading and research on the subject and know that can happen. And then even if it does resolve on it’s own, there is no guarantee it will last. But why it does or doesn’t, no one knows. It’s just a very, very appropriately named “idiopathic” condition…..and so very hard to deal with, as you also know. I will tell you what was told to me and you may have been told the same thing….apparently there can be several “veins” or branches of these little ducts that cannot always be seen or found in surgery….and so it is very difficult for a surgeon to find exactly what is leaking……sometimes. Putting all the unknowns in there, I just did not want to, nor could I afford the surgery with such little promise. And I did not want to spend what time I may have had left with my dog, subjecting him to this surgery. It’s just a very tough call! We all have to make the decisions that we feel comfortable with. And bless your heart, it sounds like you’ve had to make so many! Whatever you choose to do, I very much wish you the very best! You just never know!

As far as the diet and the Hills food, have you already tried adding something in that he really likes, to make him eat better? For mine, I made up some homemade chicken or turkey with rice, just enough to make it more appealing, so he ate it well. A little bit of anything to make him eat, surely wouldn’t make a big difference, as long as it’s not fatty.

As far as the Seameal and Benazipril, I can’t say that they have really affected anything with the CHYLOTHORAX, but the Benazipril is for him, like us taking a low dose of aspirin everyday for heart health, and it not only helped with the hypertension, it’s just something that tends to help the entire system. So I’ve kept him on it just as a support measure, same as the Seameal. The Seameal is made by Solid Gold (dog food brand) and just has a lot of minerals, vitamins, probiotics and digestive enzymes in it. There are several others on the market, but I was just already familiar with the Solid Gold product.

Please keep in touch and let me know how you are both doing. I will do the same. Be sure to take care of you too!

[Akari_32]

Haha, I’ve had that happen a few times lol It’s ok 🙂

I have noticed since adding fish oil to Bentley’s food I’ve been able to feed him less. You may recall this little 8 pound freak eats a whole cup @.@ I was adding it daily, when his fur was really bad, but since its almost back to full length now, I’ve only been doing it a few times a week. I’ve been giving him 1/2 to 1 cup now, usually closer to 3/4 to 1. I wonder if I should apply this theory to Haley? She needs the meat on her bones, not Bentley! lol

Also related to this… I was going to pick up some apple cider vinegar for Haley yesterday, but I wasn’t sure if it was the right kind! I read somewhere about unfiltered and something else, but I couldn’t find anything like that on the bottle, so I opted not to get it yet, since we seem to be on a pretty good track with those ProSence doggy vitamins. I also considered keifer, but forgot to pick it up LOL I just want unflavored, plain, correct? And how much of each of these should I give her?

Where can I get kelp and spirulina? There aren’t really any near by health food food stores, so I’m limited to Publix, WinnDixie (yuck!) and WalMart (more yuck!), and maybe Target. And again, how much do I give?

[kms]

Duke the Boxer, RescueDaneMom and PattyVaughn –

Thanks for responding so quick. I started to try to learn about the various probiotics and enzymes on the supplements thread and just got totally overwhelmed at all the choices (think my brain is full). So I ordered Mercola Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, since that is what I’ve seen recommended the most here. But I’m going to try the Biostareq Terra Biota K9 and Dr. Langer’s also – sounds like supplements can be just as trial and error as the kibble.

PattyVaughn –

When I cut “back to a couple times a week” – do you mean cut back the probiotics AND the digestives enzymes or cut back probiotics only?

I saw on Mercola’s website where they recommend that you feed the Digestive Enzymes a couple hours after each meal, not at each meal. Is that what I should do or just give it with the meal?

As far as the pumpkin, I will up the dose. He’s 32 lbs now, so that’s 3 tsp pumpkin – is that 3 tsp per meal or per day?

As far as the 20%…. He eats 3 c kibble per day, so adding a 20% topper would mean a little under ¾ cup, right? And that means I should decrease his kibble by 20% to account for the topper, right? (I feel like I’m asking stupid questions, but I need to make sure).

Should the meat be raw or cooked? I use chopped cooked chicken for training treats, but he has never eaten anything raw – I’m worried it will upset his stomach.

Thanks so much to everyone – I finally feel like I’m getting somewhere!!!

[AlexandraY]

New to this forum, I’m just skimming as I’ve been feeding and researching vegan dog foods since I decided to try V-Dog about 3-4 years ago, as there was a sample at the shelter where I volunteer. What I heard from UC Davis veterinary school is that dogs are OMNIVORES. Although related to wolves, they’ve been a separate species for MILLENNIA. They generally do not hunt, so they don’t get the vegetables and grains (and by-products, btw) wild canides get when they eat the entire animal they’ve killed.
Again, according to Davis & several sources ,including Nestle & Nesheim’s “Feed Your Pet Right,” dogs are biologically capable of digesting animal proteins.
I could cite many other sources, although there are veterinarians who disagree. But the facts are facts. Meat does not contain better “quality” protein; it simply contains complete amino acids. If you combine properly and add B12 and a few other supplements, the food is complete.
What I’ve found, in reading the arguments against, is that people have a ‘feeling’ dogs should eat meat for health because they are descended from wolves. But that’s a cultural bias, not a biological one.
Forgive me if I’ve repeated; I just skimmed for now.
Will give more citations on request!

[Duke The Boxer]

Well dr Tim’s actually says to feed a whole cup less than what was recommended on the nv. I’m feeding him now like 2 1/4 cups a day divided into 2 meals. Supposedly for his weight which is 42 pounds he should be getting like 2 cups a day. On NV when he was 30 pounds he was already getting 3 cups a day. I know this is because dr Tim’s is higher per kibble than the nv so it’s convinient that you can feed him less but still be more. Duke has really been doing well on the dr Tim’s. Also recommend nutri source large breed puppy for anyone who has a puppy with soft stools. Nutri source really helped me firm his stools up after he was having intolerances to rabbit. If you have any other questions let me know! Even more so if you have very specific questions about where dr Tim’s sources his proteins and such then I would suggest emailing dr Tim directly. He is extremely friendly and helpful and answered my like 6 emails pretty quickly hahaha

[kms]

Hi – I’m new here. I was using DFA to problem-solve and evaluate diets for my 5 mo male Weim (Augie) and ended up on this thread. WOW – what a great source of info! I’ve learned a lot and want to thank HDM and all the others who contributed. Here’s my story and my problem. Any advice would really be appreciated… especially would like input from HDM..…

We brought Augie home at 9 wks and he had soft/runny stool. Vet found roundworms and treated them. After the “all clear”, I thought his stool would get better – but it didn’t. Vet checked his stool again and found very high levels of “Clostridium” and a few other bacteria commonly found in dirt (Augie is a compulsive dirt/mud/rock eater – we’re working on it). Vet put him on Metronidozol and Pro-Pectalin for 20 days (2 rounds) – it did not resolve. Then he put him on SMZ (another antibiotic) and a bland diet for 16 days. During that time, his stool got bright yellow and was still runny all the time. He also stopped gaining weight and lost several lbs (was supposed to be 38-42 lbs, but dropped to 27 lbs). I asked about using a Probiotic and canned pumpkin, but vet didn’t want to introduce anything new to his GI tract. We tested his stool again – and finally all the bacteria levels were normal and no worms. BUT his stool was still soft/runny. He also had developed colitis from the constant diarrhea/soft stool. I started giving him 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal and slowly (over 12 days) I transitioned him from Eukanuba Puppy Growth (the breeders kibble) to Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He has now been on 100% Orijen for 11 days and I’m still giving him the pumpkin. His stool has gotten a little better – it’s formed about 75% of the time and soft about 25%. But the last couple days it has had a slick greasy coating on the outside. What does that mean?

Based on what I learned here, I have a new plan (I think). Much of this is new to me (have never used probiotics or enzymes and have never rotated foods). Also, I’m very interested in going raw (commercially made), but I don’t feel confident enough to pull the trigger yet – especially since his bowels have been so messed up for the last 3 months. What do you think of this plan:

1) Get him off Orijen – calcium is too high – did not know that till I saw HDM’s list.
2) Choose 3-4 high protein kibbles from HDM list and plan to rotate at the end of each bag.
3) Make the next food in the rotation a non-chicken, since the Euk and Orijen were both chicken based.
4) Choose a variety of toppers to be used as 20% of each meal. Use a different topper at each meal.
5) Start giving a probiotic and digestive enzymes with every meal
6) Continue 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal
7) Learn more about going raw – would like to start with commercially made and go from there. Maybe start by using a commercial raw (THK, Primal, Darwin’s) as the topper? or is that too hard for a dog to digest (mixing raw with non-raw)?

Do I give a Probiotic and Dig Enzymes at each meal indefinitely – or just during transitions from 1 food to the next?
Do I continue the pumpkin indefinitely?
Should I add fish oil and how much?
He’s up to 32.5 lbs, but still can see hips and ribs a little. What can I do to safely get some weight on him?

I really appreciate what I have learned here and look forward to advice. Thanks!

[theBCnut]

Don’t get me wrong. I do use and recommend some kibbles. I just have a dog that has issues that severely limit what kibbles he can have, and there are literally thousands of kibbles. My brain space is limited and it is already overfull, so I try to let the people who have ideas about what will work for you have their say, instead of trying to cram more into my brain. I can’t even remember the name of my favorite website with recipes right now, but if you google making homemade dog food, it is one of the top ones that comes up. My favorite books are Dr Karen Becker’s “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” and Steve Brown’s “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” Oh yeah, the website is Dogaware dot com.

Oh and I feed whole raw eggs twice a week and lightly cooked eggs twice a week. There are good things in both, but too much raw egg white can be a problem.

You are right, if you are going to add anything to the kibble or make homemade foods, you need a little more structure at feeding time. The first thing I would do is to take a guess at how much each dog should be eating, then decide if you want to feed one or two meals a day. I would at least start at twice a day since they are used to eating multiple times a day. Get a few cans of dog food and put 1/2 of the dog’s daily ration in a bowl with a couple spoonfuls of canned mixed in and give each dog their food bowl for 15 minutes. If they finish sooner great, tell them how good they are. If they don’t finish, pick up the food and put it in the fridge for the next meal. You may want to add warm water the next meal. Once they are in the habit of eating when you give them food, you are ready to move on.

Sorry I’m not more help. I’m having to deal with my Aunt who has Alzheimer’s and some other issues and it is driving me to distraction. I don’t know whether I’m coming or going. I don’t know what I’ve read where. Frankly, I think my brain is turning to mush too.

[kaylee1989]

I know there are a couple questions already about Red Barn products, but I am looking for more answers. I have been giving my dachshund their products on occasion. Yesterday, I just bought about 4 of their products, because his birthday is Friday. I wanted to surpise him, since he LOVES chewing on bones and things like that. Well the place I bought them from had a sign saying “Made in USA” but he told me that they had chicken treats from China. Kind of gave me a red flag. So I call them, they discontinued those chicken treats (they weren’t associated with the recent recall). They do however have treats made in USA, Paraguay, and Canada. A big question I forgot to ask is if they have any ingredients sourced from China or another country. I also decided to throw away the product from Paraguay although my dog has had it once in the past :/.

Does anyone else give their dogs these products? Is there anything good or bad anyone has to say about them? (I currently have peanut butter barn bagel, barky bark, knuckle bones, pig ear, and have given him femur bones etc in the past.) It really stinks that it’s so scary to even treat your dog anymore. Also if anyone has any suggestions for anything else I could buy him to chew on..please let me know. I also bought some bone like treats made out of bull hide or something? I know rawhide is not the best, but this guy told me if it’s made from bulls it’s better..I don’t know if he’s pulling my leg?)

I also have antlers, kong at my house for him to chew on. I’ve tried nylabones, but not impressed. He LOVES to chew though and loves new things to chew on especially and I feel like I can’t take that joy away from him. That’s why I decided to buy the Red Barn products. If it was a bad decision though, I will not give them to him.

Thanks for your help.

[Parr]

Pattyvaughn,

Thank you so much for letting me know the protein was based on the dry matter rather than the guaranteed analysis. I went back to the websites but not all of them show the dry matter information. I hate to ask, but can you tell me the formula to determine that result? You did such a good job on the calcium calculation! : ) Seriously, I love the detail you share! You are extremely helpful to everyone! Especially since I am new to this site this last week, I’ve had several questions. You have been very patient and helped me sort through all this information. Thank you so much! It is so much to take in, But I am trying.

Mfulton,

I think you may be talking about the list of “pea-free” food that was on another thread, “Dog Food Ingredients”, under the question, “Anyone’s dog allergic to Peas?”. I happened to be reading that one too so I’ve copied it here for you. I hope this is what you were looking for.

pugmomsandy wrote:

Grandma Lucy’s and The Honest Kitchen have some pea free foods. Also Great Life grain free/Pioneer Naturals. Here’s some pea free foods I had written down last year. I’m not sure if they’re still pea free:
Timberwolf
TOTW Pacific Stream (canola)
EVO red meats
EVO turkey & chicken
Pinnacle Peak (quinoa)
Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance
Natures Logic – millet, no potato
Great Life
Canine Caviar
I and Love and You by OnlyNaturalPet.com

[mfulton7]

Oh wow that’s overwhelming! So I’m assuming the Fromm isn’t going to be a good choice. I can’t remember what pea free foods you recommended to me already but are there any that come to your mind at the moment? Also would you consider a doberman a large breed? I’ve read some people classify them as a medium breed. Thanks so much for all your help it very helpful 🙂

[JoshFL]

Good day – what a perfect thread – thanks to all teh contributors and HDM especially.

The breeder we’re using for our large breed dog suggests Life’s Abundance. This site’s review is favorable, the calcium level is low…but it’s not on your master list. Is there something I should be aware of (besides the potential incentive they get for recommending the product) that would make Life’s Abundance inappropriate for our new dog?

Also, any thoughts on supplementing with butcher-bought tripe instead of the canned green tripe and raw salmon?

Thank you,

Josh

[RescueDaneMom]

The Cane Corso is considered a large breed dog because it will grow to 80lbs or larger. You should be feeding a food that is appropriate for a large breed puppy. They need to grow slow so they don’t develop bone problems. I would suggest you go to the Diet and Heath Issues forum and read through the Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition thread for more info. See here: /forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

A member, Hound Dog Mom, took a lot of time and effort to create a list of appropriate foods for large breed puppy growth. I would look through the list and see what is available to you. You may want to choose a food that is very different to what you are currently feeding (different protein, different carbs, etc).
Here is the list: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1
It starts with grain-inclusive foods, then grain-free foods, and raw foods last.

I have a Great Dane (aka German Mastiff). He has done well on Annamaet, Earthborn Holistic, The Honest Kitchen (a dehydrated food, not kibble), Primal (raw), and Stella & Chewy’s (raw). You can’t go wrong if you pick anything from the list I provided. I would get small bags to see if he likes it first. You can also buy food online at places like chewy.com or petflow.com if you can’t find what you want locally.

I hope this is helpful Good luck!

[Sue’s Zoo]

I have a large breed puppy, Shiloh Shepherd. He’s 55 pounds at 4-1/2 months. With much help from information on this forum I’m feeding him half kibble (rotating between Wellness Core Puppy, Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch, Halo Spot’s Stew Surf N Turf) and half raw (Primal and OCRraw) as well as a probiotic and supplement. He seems to be doing very well. I’m currently feeding him 5.5 cups of food per day but I’m going to increase it, at least temporarily, as he still seems hungry all the time. I’m also feeding him three times a day at this point.

My question–up to what age is it recommended to feed 3 times a day? I wonder if feeding him fewer, larger meals if he would be better satisfied.

Also, does anyone know if there’s a way to search the forums on this site? There’s a search box on the initial forum page but nothing for individual topics that I can see. They’re packed with such great information but I’m sure many questions are repeated and information missed because it’s so hard to find out which issues have already been addressed.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Sue's Zoo.

[Jesika]

Hi all. I have two pit/lab mixes father and daughter, and a stray black lab mix I adopted, aged 4, 2 and just a month shy of 1 year. All three dogs have black in their tongues and I’ve been told this means they are all mixed with something other than pit or lab, but what either dad and daughter or stray is mixed with, I dunno. (daughter’s mom was a pit/wimeriner)

Anyway. So I have all three on a wellness plan and they’ve all seen the doctor for my over-worried mommy tendencies at least once a month for the last four months; I got the stray on a plan just yesterday and the docs are all impressed with her bloodwork/health/coat just like my other two.

I never had pets until my late twenties and so right off, I just followed what my then-bf did with his dog (he’d had animals for years), as far as feeding goes, which was to free feed dry kibble. While he would get the cheapest kind not caring to read the label, when I was gainfully employed I fed mine Natural Balance grain-free lamb, then had to change and for the last six months or so, they’ve all been eating the Pure Balance Chicken & Brown Rice from Walmart, as I thought $30ish for a 30 lb bag of what is supposed to be natural ingredients sounds like a good deal to me.

BUT!! I have been reading over on consumer affairs about all the dogs that’ve died eating Ol’ Roy products, sometimes the PB dry line included. My vet said try Purina One, but that has a lesser rating than Pure Balance according to this website last time I checked.

I’m trying to become more healthy in way of eating less chemicals and want to bring my dogs along, so I thought I was doing good with the PB over the Purina being that there were less questionable ingredients. But then I hear about “Well, what does the fish on the boat on its way to the processing plant get treated with?” and “Anything from China is bad for your dogs to be eating, nothing good comes outta there.” and “Dog food companies? It could be one processing plant stateside today and a different one in Taiwan tomorrow, as far as manufacturers are concerned. Both foods are still going into a bag that looks and is priced the same, and thus makes the manufacturers their profit.”

All that said… My FIRST goal, if it can be something I can afford money/time wise to do, is to simply transition my dogs from Pure Balance to homemade food. SECOND, if I cannot do that, is to find two or three trusted brands that will be healthy-as-possible without killing my pocket — I might be living off of just disability soon, but I need my dogs alive as part of my healing process should I ever hope to have “a real job” again soon.

So…let the comment flying begin please! Do you have any cheaper-than-raw-steak-all-the-time recommendations for a basic homemade diet I can start with immediately until I can build from there? Or do you have anything other than Pure Balance that you can recommend based on price-point and natural ingredients, not to mention a GOOD reputation from the brand/manufacturer??

I am very very lost, and have much to stress about already…what I’m feeding my dogs and it’s potential long-term-and-hidden side effects is not another thing I need. It seems that from what I can tell this community of dog people LOVE their pets and share advice, so please please, share!! And THANK YOU THANK YOU in advance.

Signed,
Jesika and her three…Toby, Rhi and Midnight.

P.S. What about dehydrated foods? I just saw these at my local Sprouts Market and wonder — could this, though a little more pricey than what I buy now, be a happy medium between having to worry about manufacturer defect killing my dog and my having to cook them a meal every day, all while getting the nutrition they need? Hmmm…

[VegetarianDog]

I have two vegetarian dogs, both relatively healthy. One has food allergies to animal protein and now that she’s solidly in her teens she has a bit of arthritis and some hearing loss. The other is blind from glaucoma she had before I adopted her and has had reflux for at least a couple years longer than we’ve had her (I was a humane society employee and my shelter had fostered her through heartworm treatments for a couple months with another employee when she first arrived there, then adopted her out to a home that we had to confiscate her from a year and a half or so later. Then I fell in love with her while working on rehabilitating her and wound up adopting her, so we know what she was like the first time she came through the shelter, but still have no idea about the first several years of her life). Aside from those specific issues, they’re in excellent health. When we first adopted our allergic girl, we tried all the atypical meat and carb sourced foods out there (duck and potato, venison and pea, etc). She reacted to everything, even plain fish. Her allergies are bad enough that when my brother was letting her lick out his empty individual serving yogurt cup, the teeny tiny amount of gelatin the yogurt he had contained was enough to cause her to have a flare up. Because of that, we switched to a vegetarian diet as soon as we found one that worked for her. She still craves meat 9 years later, but she just can’t have it even with twice daily antihistamines. An accidental mouthful of cat food is enough to cause a $300 vet trip for anibiitics, special shampoo, powerful antihistamjnes, and steroids and land her in an ecollar for a month because when she has a flare up, she’ll scratch and chew every inch of herself bald and keep right on chewing and scratching, crying as she’s doing it because she’s already gone through the skin. For us, vegetarian food is not a choice, it’s a necessity. Our other dog is vegetarian as well because the allergic dog will eat meat-poop if she can (thank god for top entry kitty litterboxes since cats are obligate carnivores) and flare up from that and even though we try to clean up as soon as poop happens, missing even one piece a month isn’t a risk we can take.

It would be amazing if there were more spaces where people with vegetarian or vegan dogs could go to exchange information about which of the vegetarian options are healthiest. You either won’t change their minds about the ethics or it’s a medical requirement for their dog, so isn’t it better to quit judging people and help them make the best possible choice within the parameters they’re working with?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by VegetarianDog. Reason: Edited for clarity

[Nancy M]

Thanks so much for your comments! I really appreciate hearing peoples experiences with this. For starters, with this pup, the test was positive for the Giardia, but there was not enough of a sample for the Coccidia test, so the vet is just treating for both. Good decision! Apparently, the Albon is for the Coccidia and the Panacur is for the Giardia….but, like I just told my daughter, the Panacur did not bring good results for my 3 year old dog, when he had this really, really bad as a puppy. It was not until I used the Albon AND the Metronitizole together, that I got a speedy turn-around. But vets are always reluctant to use the Metro, especially on young puppies like this (even mine when he was even quite a bit older than this one is), due to the side affects it can have. While I totally respect that, sometimes you have to consider the affects and lasting illness from not using it. If it were my puppy, I would already be using it…because I keep it on hand. But my daughter doesn’t want to go against the vet. I understand that, because I was in the same spot at one time, but finally listened to my breeder. Within a few days, he was almost back to normal. Before that, I went from vet to vet, and nothing worked. The poor puppy was very, very sick for the first 4 – 5 months of his life, not to mention the havoc it caused in my life, but I finally got to the point I thought I would lose him. Thank goodness for my very involved and caring breeder, because what she had been telling me all along, worked!

My daughter now has the puppy since she’s not working for the next 4 days. She is also seeing what I’ve been talking about, still and again, very loose stools, very little, if any water consumption, decreased energy and playfulness with much more sleeping than before. I told her to call the vet again, since she had told me if he’s not getting better by weeks end, she will probably go with the Metronitizole. So, I’m waiting to see if she’s going to finally give in.

This Giardia and Coccidia, together, if not just even one by itself, is absolutely a nightmare for pet owners and their poor little victims. I’m not so sure that my adult dog, even at 3 years old, hasn’t suffered or acquired some health issues from all he went through. It’s just horrible! Another reason against any future puppies! And who knows how many of them end up suffering with this, on and on, at the hands of uncaring or irresponsible breeders or pet owners. Very sad.

So thanks for your response….was nice talking with you.

[Akari_32]

It’s up to you, Aleksandra. It’s just like some people continue to use Diamond. Personal preference, really. That’s a great deal on Nutrisca, though! Wholly cow. I think it’s right up there with Blue Buffalo and Innova in cost here, and no coupons (except for some $3 ones once). And no sales. Never seen it seen on sale in stores.

It saddens me that your 11 pound dogs eats as much as my 8 pound dog >.< Bentley can’t help he’s a hyper active lunatic D: lol

That’s probably it, Sandy. Too many china things to remember! Dogswell brand food is sold in Publix, and it looks good on paper, but I beleive I read somewhere about it being basically like an other Diamond product, with iffy ingredients and I think improper labeling or something? And it sports a little Made in the USA flag, while some of ingredients are not sourced in the states at all. Oh, marketing, you so silly.

Thanks Marie 🙂 Those were at the top of my list, the bottom being I think Natures Recipe and Canidae. I plan on trying everything at least once, and see how it goes. I may go back through and take out any fish ones, as Bentley doesn’t like fish. Or I may just say sucks to be him and he can eat it anyways LOL

[beaglemom]

Mom2Cavs – I completely understand. For 6 years I fed what the vet told me to feed and I vaccinated with what they told me to vaccinate. In addition – my vet likes to make up some story about how they like to give the 3-year rabies booster every 2 years “just to be safe.” Um, what?! After spending enough time here on DFA and other natural dog care sites I am so done with that crap – and now I feel like I spend more time educating the docs when I go in then they spend educating me… but I’m paying them. Go figure. The latest stunt they pulled was with my older boy that I knew had had a vaccine reaction in the past but didn’t know to which one (because his previous owners were… not good). They took him back to draw blood and when he was brought back I was told “oh the doctor said to go ahead and give him an injection of Benedryl to get him started before the vaccines”. At the time I was annoyed but it didn’t really sink in til i saw my invoice — that injection cost $26! almost double the cost of the rabies vaccine itself! And they never even consulted me! I went home furious, called the office and was put on the phone with the smooth-talking doc who insisted that it was “in his best interest” and “that’s what we do with all dogs who have had a reaction”. I said – not with my dog! You do not inject him with *anything* without consulting me first and certainly not something for $26! They make out great! — now, even though they don’t know which vaccine caused his reaction, every TWO years (“to be safe”) they want me to pay ~15 for the vaccine PLUS $26 for Benedryl. Needless to say, even though I had to push through to the office manager to get it, they did issue me a credit and noted my wishes in my dogs’ files. Sorry for the rant and thank you for reading 🙂 It’s just live and learn I guess… I regret the 6 years I spent not knowing any better, like you, but now we DO know and we aren’t getting pushed around any longer. I’m glad you were able to switch to a vet you can trust — I’m having a lot of trouble finding a holistic vet around me.

Marie – I know, I used to be one of those people (see above!). That’s interesting that your one dog made it to 10 with nothing. The rabies is unfortunate though 🙁