[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
In answer to your question from the Large and Giant Breed Nutrition forum about raw sourcing:

I decided a few weeks ago that the best diet for Mystery would be raw. Having made that decision, I didn’t think I should wait just because I didn’t have a local source for meat so I started pounding around the raw food thread and large breed raw thread. I asked questions about how to start, what to feed… I knew I wasn’t interested in freeze-dried or frozen patties – my boy is going to eat “manly” meat, where I could find a reliable, trustworthy online place to get meat and poultry and any other essential real food to get me through a search period. Based on recommendations here, I chose My Pet Carnivore (MPC).

Since I would have to wait for my first shipment, I headed to the grocery store, picked up a non-GMO, organic whole chicken as well as some meat with bones in them. I pulled out my German meat cleaver and a cutting board with grooves and discovered an expensive knife and cutting board does not make one a butcher. Next time I’m just going to give it to the meat department and tell them to hack it up for me.

Last week I found a farm that grass feeds, no GMOs, but they do feed grains in the three weeks prior to slaughter (I’m still checking to see if that is standard practice and if not, why it’s done and whether it effects the quality of the meat (other than the tripe) – more questions for my conference list). I may be able to get half of a cow in a few weeks at $2/lb. So, I have a 20 cu.ft. freezer arriving on Saturday and I continue to look at local resources including a dairy farm where they usually put down male calves, as well as chicken, goat and other natural farmed animals. Until then, I’m happy using MPC for all of my meat. I received my second shipment from them today, thank goodness – twice what I ordered the first time and I feel better about the balance of foods. MPC sells a number of balanced grinds – chicken, tripe/organs/etc. They also sell fine ground meats (I assume for small dogs), as well as coarse grind.

So, the answer to your question is – yes, you can buy from a reputable market. It’s cheaper in the long run since you don’t have to pay high shipping fees to ensure frozen mean doesn’t thaw before it arrives. (If you live near MPC they have pickup points.) The first local meat market I called not only couldn’t tell me whether the meat they sell is GMO free but they seemed irritated that I asked. Not going there! I’m also looking for a co-op of folks who are feeding raw but that is turning out to be more difficult to find than I expected.

As for supplements, I’ve been giving Mystery garlic (pest control), and a vitamin C complex (gum health, immune support, antioxidant), from Springtime from the day I brought him home, that hasn’t changed now that he’s on raw. He’s also getting two 825mg capsules of curcumen (variety of cancers, inflammation, among many others), sprinkled on his food and about a tablespoon of coconut oil which I started him on for a skin condition that cleared up in a matter of weeks and continue to give him for a myriad of benefits. I may be adding krill oil to his list of supplements as well.

In addition to all the help you’ll get here, if you go to mypetcarnivore.com, whether you intend to buy or not, they have some links to some great articles on feeding raw – right side, about half way down the homepage. If you sign up for Dogs Naturally Magazine, they email you a link to download their Raw Food Primer.

There are folks here who are much smarter about all of this than I am (which is why I’m here), and they have been really helpful during my transition to raw. Keep asking those questions!

[Beth Whitcomb]

I was feeding Natures Variety and he has become outrageously expensive even though I love the product so I am switching to K9 cravings. I did a comparison of the 5 star Beef from Natures Variety with the 2.5 star K9 cravings and remain confused .
Natures Variety Dry matter K9 Cravings
Protein 15% 23% Protein 14. 4 % 23%
Fat 12% 18% Fat 18.3% 30%
Fiber 3 % Fiber 1.1 %
Moisture 65 % Moisture 62.5%

I have asked Mike to explain and he suggested I post and maybe someone can provide me with an explanation. There is no problem with the meat sources or recommended balance so I cannot figure out the big discrepancy in ratings.

[Lablubber]

Hi Again Crew

So can I also ask without sounding stupid… Why can’t a person who does the raw diet for their dogs, just buy their raw meat stuff through a reputable meat market and get the additives/suppliments through a speciality pet supply to add to their food… Is it just the cost difference? Or what is the reasoning behind it? Just curious???

The Lablubber

[DogFoodie]

Hi Jeff,

I would also rotate proteins for a wider variety of amino acids.

I believe that the one thing that James from Darwin’s encourages with regular rotational feeding of a variety of their products is adding a sardine to your dogs food every other day. Tinned sardines are fine and they’re the best source of Omega 3’s which are generally lacking in most diets.

You might also consider getting some of Darwin’s raw green tripe with your next order. Raw green tripe is full of amino acids, digestive enzymes and lots of nutrients. Darwin’s sells it in one pound packages and you can easily add it to a meal or serve as a meal.

[Naturella]

Marie,

Wow. Thank you for the information! I was hoping this affordable, somewhat local raw would be a good choice, but I guess it may be a bit iffy… I may stick to grocery store raw – it should be at least fit for human consumption, so it will be good enough for Bruno.

[InkedMarie]

This was posted this morning on a FB group I am on:

Anybody find out anymore info on Blue ridge beef products? The new (and only) coop that started delivering to my area sells their products, along with other non commercial raw products. I don’t feed much ground, but they have quail (at an oddly low price), and that would be another protein source I can add to my dogs current variety. Both of whom loved the quail I gave them last night.

I’ve read the info out there on the web (good and bad) and then emailed the owner Steve with my questions.

My email. . .

“Hi Steve, I’m sure you get this a lot but I would really appreciate if you could answer a few questions I had, and clear up some confusion.

I know that you own BRB as well as Lea way Inc./Lea way Farms, I’ve read from the Iredell county commissioner minutes on the Iredell county government website archives that Lea Way Inc., is in the business of animal removal from local area farms and recycles it for pet food for Grey hound racing tracks in FL. At least you were as of May 2006.
http://www.co.iredell.nc.us/Departments/Planning/minutes/April2006pbminutes.pdf
Page 6
”Lea-Way Company picks up deceased cattle from area farms and provides a means for sanitary disposal; the existing plant processes useable materials into pet food products”

http://www.co.iredell.nc.us/Commissioners/minutes/Regular/May_9_2006_regular_minutes.pdf
Page 4 notes from that meeting stated. . .
”Lea said since 1979, his company had helped to recycle dead animals, at no cost to the county or state.”

“Commissioner Robertson asked about the process — muscle tissue removed from
the carcass. Lea said this was correct, and the tissue was boxed, frozen, labeled, and shipped to the Greyhound Tracks in Florida as pet food.”

Are the Iredell county documents correct in their information or were they at the time they were written correct? Are BRB and Lea Way Inc. connected in any other way besides sharing a mailing address? Is Lea way Inc. still in the practice of collecting downed animals and recycling them for petfood products for greyhound racing? If not, what happens to all the muscle meat you process from the downed animals you pick up, if it’s not going into pet food products? Are you still greyhound breeding for racing?

If the information is correct, I’m curious why one company produces pet products/food from picked up dead animals, and why your other company BRB would have a different meat quality standard?

I would really appreciate some information, and I’m hoping you reply back and answer my questions directly and honestly.

Thanks for your time and possible rely”

His response:

“Steve Lea’s reply. . .

Hello Lola
I will try to give you a short direct answer?
This was an attempt by me 8 years ago to take material that is unusable for ANYTHING, and turn them into renewable fuels.
I see that now you have dug up the commissioners Minutes as well.
If you read them you will see it was tabled and then withdrawn,
None of this happened then and is not happening now, and has NOTHING to do with BRB, or the products in BRB…
There is no 3-4D in Any of our products..
The internet is full of old outdated information that is no longer the case.
Some people have spent allot of time digging up this old outdated information and attempting to link it to BRB
to attempt to destroy it
WHY????????
I have answered these questions hundred’s of times only to find my words turned around and misrepresented on chat sites
I WILL NO LONGER ADDRESS THIS ISSUE!!!!
If you choose to believe these internet bullies and not feed BRB we wish you and your pets the best.
If you choose to believe your own eyes and your pets health and feed BRB we thank you for your business and support
Steve.”

A response like that would cause me to cross them off my possible dog food list.

[Naturella]

Oh, my goodness, I absolutely feel the same way – I REALLY need to watch my nutrition and exercise as closely as I watch Bruno’s, so I can be around him and my husband and I’s future human and furry babies longer…

But yes, I have stocked up on Earthborn and Vets Choice Holistic Health Extension for DAYS – a total of 42 lbs of Earthborn (3 varieties @ 14 lbs each), and a total of 12 lbs of HHE (3 varieties @ 4 lbs each), so 54 lbs so far, and I want to now get Victor Ultra Pro (GF) and the Yucon Salmon GF, 15 lbs each – that will be a total of 84 lbs of food for $110 altogether (great coupons I got). I also plan to add raw ground, RMBs, and marrow bones for gnawing as well as dehydrated natural chews… I am a mess… I need to REALLY stop shopping for Bruno after I get the last of Victor, and raw… And watch those “Best by: ” labels!

But yes, if you ever want to come up to Kennesaw to go to that store, and would like to meet up (there is also a great park with dog off-leash areas really close by), you can let me know if you want. You can add me on Facebook, my name is Aleksandra Ninova. 🙂

[Naturella]

Thank you, Marie!

P.S. I found an AMAZING pet food store (mostly for cats and dogs), 5 min away from home, and they sell raw – Blue Ridge Beef, which sounds pretty local for Georgia. I am beyond pumped! It seems very affordable – 3-4lbs frozen ground meat, organs, bones, tripe, and eggs for $5-something! I am in love with this place, let alone the super affordable natural raw and dehydrated chews! 🙂 🙂 🙂

[Sharon Buchanan]

Jeff ~
Pretty soon I’m going to get accused of being on their payroll (I’m not), the way I keep going on about it, but I’ve signed up for Raw Roundup, an online conference at the end of this month with speakers who are experts on raw feeding. It’s hosted by DogsNaturallyMagazine.com. I just started my 11 month old Golden on raw and everyone here has been so very helpful. I’m hoping the conference will give me an additional arsenal of information to ensure I’m feeding my pup the absolute best I can.

[llynns]

Would foods with pseudo grains be ok to feed when trying to eliminate all grains from the diet? I have a dog who is in remission with thyroid carcinoma and I know raw would be the optimum….and, I’m researching my options. But, until then – I’m looking for some dry foods to add for rotation. I currently feed Horizon Legacy Salmon and have had great results. I was considering Nature’s Logic but, I noticed it contains millet. Any thoughts on other options and feeding pseudo grains?

[InkedMarie]

Hi Jeff,
It’s best to feed a variety of proteins, even in raw. So, next order, get a mixture. As for supplements, I don’t think you have to add much, I’d suggest salmon oil & eggs a couple time a week. Some give digestive enzymes & probiotics which aren’t necessary but sure can’t hurt. Darwin’s has good customer service, give them a call!

[Jeff33]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciated all the valuable information that everyone has posted on this site. I am a new dog owner..my baby Tioga (English springer spaniel) turns one in a week. I found this site by researching the best type of dog foods available for him. I recently purchased some Orijen red because I thought that was the best food. I’ve since realized that I was wrong and I would like to feed him a raw diet because it’s the healthiest option. I don’t want to make my own raw meals. I’m going with Darwin’s. Here are my questions:

1. Can I feed him Darwin’s (chicken) everyday, without rotating? I thought rotating was only for canned and kibble due to the toxins.

2. Do I need to add anything else to his diet? I know I need to add some bones for his teeth and there are already enzymes in the meat so I don’t need to add that. What about probiotics?

I guess what I’m asking is what is the most basic diet, I was worried that just feeding him Darwin’s isn’t enough, I don’t want him to miss out on any necessary vitamins, minerals etc. due to my lack of knowledge.

Thanks for your help,
Jeff

[treizi]

So once again, I’m on the hunt for some new food. Koda’s an almost 10 year old Papillon with some random tummy issues that we haven’t been able to pin down. The vet has mentioned early pancreatitis possibilities as well as stomach acid issues. Symptoms are random and vary but basically will alter from diarrhea, stomach bloat and/or gurgling and bile spit up.
Since full blown pancreatitis isn’t a concern (yet), I’m not willing to go on a prescription diet since it might not even be an issue, but I’m hoping to find a good alternative that is just healthier all around. Koda has been eating the grain free duck from Lotus and while he seems to do OK on it, he doesn’t love it and tends to free feed.

I’m looking in to raw/wet but confused about the fat content conversions with raw in particular. Since he’s getting a bit older and has these stomach issues, I’m searching for something that is lower in fat. I’ve considered Honest Kitchen’s Preference and was thinking about adding raw but everything seems to be extremely high in fat content. The ones I’ve seen that are lower is Darwin’s and OC, both which I have access to in this area, but I’m not sure if these are even considered way to high for my older boy.

The alternative would be for us to boil Costco chicken and add that to the preference, but I do like the idea of having the ready made patties and being able to alternate between proteins. We often travel to our families place so not having to make a separate meal for the dog would be nice too.

Would I just need to contact the companies and ask what the true fat content is? I saw the mathematical conversion on another part of the site, but it seems like I need to know the moisture content of the food and I’m not sure where to find that.

[Lablubber]

Thank you guys for all of your quick responses and I sure hope I don’t get associated with being lazy but you know what? I go to a doctor who is very much into natural cures and holistic medicine as was my mother. And so I take a complete array of herbal medicine and my health, blood work and every part of my being has improved greatly so I continue in this approach.

But when I came here, my dog was on puppy chow from the breeder who raved about it as well as my own vet. recommended it as well unless I wanted to switch to Royal Canin. Upon coming here in just a short time, I started transitioning to what I thought was a great food from all I had read on my own, which was a bad choice so I referred to what you guys suggested and quickly learned my wisdom was severely lacking and I needed to make another change…..

So that is why I am now asking to not make another mistake. I am taking newsletters from Raw folks, holistic vets, folks in the know such as you but trying to disseminate it all has really become quite confusing….One says, it causes yellow stools and the next says it contains one bad ingredient…Garlic, rosemary extract, some chemical that is bad and so then when I am just about decided on what I want to switch to next before the raw… Boom then here comes another post from someone I respect as very knowledgeable in this field and there I am back to square one again…

and so really I just want to cut to the chase because I am at the point food wise that in order to transition to another brand or type…. I have to move quickly or otherwise I will have to go buy more Blue to accomplish that and I don’t want to do that.

So I just looked at Chewy.com and wished I would have gone there long ago and I will order several different bags just to try and see how he does on them and if one seems to agree with him better than the other, that you guys recommended than I will stick with that or use both and switch them in and out as I converge over to raw.

Thank you all so very much for your help…

The Lablubber

[Sharon Buchanan]

Lablubber ~
No one can tell you definitively what to feed your puppy. We all have opinions based on our limited or extensive research and experience. When we brought our first Golden home, we fed puppy food – I don’t remember exactly what but it was easily available in the commissary so probably just junk. She required double-hip surgery before she was two.

When we decided to add another Golden – Mystery, I spent two months researching large breed nutrition, even before we decided on him. I read every article that HDM has conveniently posted on page one here (though I found them independent of this site), created my own table of foods, listing proteins, fats, calcium/phosphorus ratios/percentages, grains/no grains and so on. Based on that initial research I chose a food. I continued my research, signed up for newsletters, magazines, etc., and eventually chose a different food. As my research continued, I switched my cats to better foods as well. And I continue researching ways to feed my babies the best ways possible.

I appreciate so much all the advice I get from everyone in the DogFoodAdvisor forums, but the decision to purchase food A or food B is ultimately mine. Any suggestions from anyone are not taken blindly – I still go to the manufacturer’s website, look at their ingredients, lookup an ingredient I’m not familiar with, check to make sure there are no known controversies or issues with those ingredients (for example: the link between rosemary extract and seizures in humans, canola oil and cancer, synthetic vs. natural supplement sources), where they come from, how they’re processed, what temp they’re cooked at. All of this is taken into account before I purchase anything.

Now, I understand if you don’t have that kind of time. But you’re here for a reason – you want to feed your dog the best that you possibly can (which is why you’re considering raw!). So, find a just bit of time to look at some of the kibble recommendations that folks have made. I haven’t seen anyone say that Purina or Iams or Science Diet or Royal Canin or Blue are acceptable foods so the recommendations you do find here are all going to be good to excellent choices. I’ve stated my preference a number of times – Orijen, but that doesn’t make Earthborn or Wellness or Canine Caviar bad foods. Open up a few separate browser windows and do a side-by-side comparison to see what you think is best, check Chewy.com prices and you’ll make the right decision for you and your pup.

Now, if you’re wanting to find out more about raw, there’s plenty of information here – I’m already smarter about feeding Mystery raw for the time I’ve spent asking questions and reading responses. But I’ve also signed up for a weekend-long web conference being hosted by DogsNaturallyMagazine.com at the end of this month called Raw Roundup. Experts in the field will be presenting any number of topics on feeding raw and I have started a list of questions to ask in case they are not addressed during the sessions.

You can do this!

[Sharon Buchanan]

jewels~
Sorry for what seems like conflicting/confusing information – it shouldn’t be as I was addressing the percentage of calcium in the Wellness formulas, Duke is addressing the grams of calcium that percentage represents in the food.

If you haven’t opened the bag, PetCo will take it back – actually, they’ll take it back even if you have opened it. If you have a couple days worth of NV left, I can agree with Imnordrum regarding ordering from Chewy. They have excellent customer service and I’ve always received everything within two days as well.

PetCo should carry Innova LBP if you’re considering that, which has one of the lowest calcium/phosphorus ratios – closest to what Dr. Henry Baker recommends (see article #3 on HDM’s list on the first page). Their food is not the best, but certainly better than Purina or Iams, Science Diet…

My primary concern when I first brought Mystery home was calcium, since we already had a Golden that required double-hip surgery, so I put him on the Innova LBP. When he was about seven months old, I switched him to Orijen LBP which has a higher calcium, but only as an interim food while I researched raw, which he is now on. If I had not gone raw, he’d still be on Orijen LBP formula until he was two and then over to Orijen’s adult formulas. Orijen is grain-free, preservative-free and synthetic-free. You won’t find Orijen at PetCo. Only one of my five cats likes raw so they’re all on Orijen Cat and Kitten. (No, I don’t work for Orijen – it’s just the best I can find at a price I can afford.) I’ve had no dietary issues with either the cats or Mystery from any of the foods I’ve fed.

As for the pumpkin, if there are no medical reasons for your pup to have loose stools (I don’t know what they would be except for my experience with Sunset having eaten rabbit poop), a tablespoon of plain pumpkin will help. I never had to give more than two tablespoons, even when Sunset did clean up after the rabbits.

[lmnordrum]

Lablubber: I was very overwhelmed too! Had advice to feed raw but it is impractical for me and frankly it grosses me out. After a lot of reading, including every post on this forum including the external articles, I decided to feed Wellness Core Puppy (grain free.) My dog loves it, she has a great coat and no issues with the BMs. I order it from Chewy.com .

My dog was being fed Royal Canin puppy by the breeder and although I tried to mix the food at the beginning, the dog just picked out the Wellness and left the Royal Canin in the bowl. I said the heck with it and just quit the Royal Canin and fed the Wellness and she never had a problem.

For low-value treats and training I’m feeding Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast. For high value treats I’m just buying meat and cooking it and putting it in the freezer. Its cheaper to buy chuck roast than it is to get dog snacks.

Hope this helps!

[Lablubber]

Rick Rankin

So can somebody make it simple for me and please tell me on the kibble end of it. If you were just starting out with a lab puppy and wanted to feed him the best kibble… What is the best overall choice. Orijen, Acana, Annamaet, Earthborn Holistic, Go! Fit & Free, Wellness or Dr Something or whatever for a 13 week old Lab puppy. I have read to oblivion on what is best. I have read every persons articles about what is recommended and I am even more confused now and becoming quite desperate watching my grow and hopefully do well.

As I said I tried to switch over to a good food and switched to Blue Lg. Breed Puppy and then only to find out that it too was too high in calcium after all the 20 days of transitioning to another food.

I do plan to slowly work over to some raw diet when I feel knowledgeable enough to do so…Mainly on his evening meals and I have tried some of the stuff PattyVaughn recommend for him as well as adding it to his kibble as toppers to his food to see how he reacted to it and so far so good. But for me and my lack of knowledge, I am just afraid that to jump off completely in the Raw scene because you also need to know that I take this dog with me 24/7. He goes everywhere I go and I also take him to work with me as well. Plus he is already training hard every day with all of his retriever work and obedience training. So then with the very limited knowledge that I have on this subject and the conditions that I am involved in, a totally raw diet would almost be impossible for me to do right now….Plus I am afraid I would not have enough knowledge to give him and provided everything that he needs as far as supplementations that go along with it for a lg. breed growing puppy. Especially when I want to be extra careful on the calcium end of it and then again saying that… I also don’t want to under nourish him in anyway whatsoever either.

So could I just plead for someone’s mercy and wisdom in this situation and please recommend the best kibble for a 13 week old lab puppy and then if you don’t mind, share with me where the best place is to order it…. Because as most all of you warned me….My local pet stores carry very little healthy lg. breed puppy food and all the local vets carry is Science Diet and Royal Canin or something like that and when you read their ingredients, none of them meet the requirements…

So then…Could someone please come to my rescue and help someone in a pinch here, because I am down to about the last 8 # of the food that I have and so now would be the time to transition to another one. I have learned tons from all of you guys but for me time is of the essence because I want this pup to have the best I can get for him with the limited amount of knowledge that I do have on board.

Thanks Lablubber

[Sue’s Zoo]

Duke the Boxer posted this in the LBP topic:
‘The way HDM calculated the percentages of the calcium is from usuing this formula
1)Multiply calcium% by 1000g. That gives you the grams of calcium/kg
2)Divide the grams of calcium/kg by the kcal/kg for the food. That gives you the grams of calcium/kcal.
3)Multiply the grams of calcium/kcal by 1000/1000. That gives you grams of calcium/1000kcal.

Ive calculated food that say the max calcium is 1.5% but after the calculations the food was over the 3.5g of calcium per 1000kcal’

This is exactly why I’m still so uncomfortable feeding raw to my large breed pups! The whole point it doing it is to give them the best nutrition but if I screw up the calcium/phosphorus ratio etc I’ve just caused a problem that could be serious. And it seems fairly complicated to get it right. I’ve used a couple of books that are helpful but I can’t ask specific questions. This forum has helped tremendously but I’m still so insecure about it. Looking forward to the Raw Feeding Web Conference next weekend.

In the meantime does anyone know a good place to get nutritional values for various meats that include the bone, as well as green tripe etc? I found a website that I can use to add ingredients and get total values but, of course, the only items already in the database do not contain bone, etc. There’s a small fee if you want to do more than 3 recipes but if it help me get this right, it’s worth it :).

[Naturella]

Shasta,

I see. Yeah, I will start one at a time and add 1-2 tsp.

I will also try adding more lean meat (bully sticks, raw, or cooked) to his food (and reduce the kibble a bit, of course).

Thanks so much for the advise to all, if anyone has any more suggestions, please feel free to share, and I will let you know what works when I find it out! 🙂

[Shasta220]

I’m not exactly sure how much of the extra supplements you should add. Try maybe 1-2tsp? I’d start with using one product at a time, to see which one is/isn’t seeming to work. If the bully sticks seem to help, maybe cutting back on the kibble and adding some meat (raw or cooked) to his delicious-sounding doggie soup?

[Shasta220]

Apple Valley? Just curious, where is that at?

I’m on the Oregon Coast, so raw honey is crazy expensive. But we just got 2 beehives last year (funny thing. We originally had a swarm given to us, but they moved out right away. About a week later, a wild swarm moved in and produced a whooooole lotta honey). When we harvest the honey this summer, I’m definitely reserving some for the dogs.

[Naturella]

Hm… I currently feed an all-grain-free kibble blend of 15lbs of Dr. Tim’s, 4 lbs of Nutrisca chicken, and 4lbs of Vets Choice Holistic Health Extension, all mixed in. He gets about 1 cup of that mix/day, in four feedings or so.

I have heard that pumpkin firms up stools, do you think I should still give it? He has a bowel movement 3 times a day.

I could try to add some fiber, maybe ground flax seed and/or yoghurt to his food? He gets coconut butter at breakfast every other day too. For treats, I am currently using some freeze-dried liver ones, frozen pineapple chunks, baby carrots, kale stems, or his kibble. We have just started adding some raw meaty bones once a week (for now), and I got some great coupons for free canned food, so I will be adding that in too in months to come.

[Sharon Buchanan]

loobija and vaarde ~
You need to read the articles that HDM has posted on page one of this thread. If you’re going to feed dry to your large breed puppies, you need to be feeding a low calcium/phosphorus kibble. Those articles, will tell you why. If you don’t want to read all of them, at least read Dr. Susan Lauter’s paper (#1), Dr. Henry Baker’s paper (#3 on the list), as well as Dr. Karen Becker’s article and watch her video (#5).

HDM also posted a list of Large Breed Puppy food here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFY183Q0NVRXlidWc/edit, to make it easy for you to research the best LBP food for your dog (and wallet). You can also Google Large Breed Puppy Food to find more. Your puppy is worth a little bit of homework.

Look for a food that has a minimum calcium content of .8% with a maximum around 1.2% (and don’t get hung up on AAFCO standards for calcium – they’re still behind the power curve when it comes to LBP nutrition). HDM’s list only provides minimum calcium content, you’ll need to go to the manufacture’s website to see if they list the maximum – some don’t, call them if you’re considering their food.

vaarde – Dr. Clauder’s adult food for LB “junior” dogs contains maize (corn), corn meal, rice, beet pulp, powdered egg, mussel powder. Filler grains, sugars and in the case of those two powders, nothing but dust. They also use sodium selenite as a source of selenium when they could be using a natural source – selenium yeast. Compare those ingredients with NRG Maxim for large breeds, or Canine Caviar, or…

loobija – you have a puppy, not an adult dog. Do not feed your LBP adult dog food and be very careful about feeding your puppy any “all life stages” food as well. Please read those articles. There is a reason why you need to select a formula designed specifically for large breed puppies. I do not like Authority’s LBP formula for some of the same reasons I don’t like Dr. Clauder’s and their minimum calcium is 1.3% when that is higher than what I would consider as a maximum amount.

Personally, having read all the articles that HDM posted links to – and I found them independent of this fantastic forum, (be sure to thank her for making your research easier), I believe the closer you can stay to .8% calcium the better. LBP kibble formulas will have the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio (1.2:1).

Look for foods that have named meat “meals” (chicken meal, salmon meal, etc.) in many of the first five ingredients as possible. Avoid unnamed anything (meat meal, fish meal, poultry-by-product), grains and fillers (wheat, corn, glutens), and sugars and starches (beets, potatoes). Try to find foods with natural supplements and no preservatives. If you don’t don’t what an ingredient is, look it up. For example: menadione sodium bisulfite complex (synthetic vs. natural Vit K), sodium selenite (vs. selenium yeast).

Kibble is a mine field. Make sure you subscribe to DogFoodAdvisor’s recall alerts: /dog-food-recall-alerts/. You can also find a wealth of information regarding pet food manufacturing practices (what they’re doing right, mostly wrong, how the FDA and the AAFCO really aren’t concerned about what goes into your pet food, recalls, etc.), at truthaboutpetfood.com.

Finally, I would recommend you read just the few pages that have been started in the forums here on feeding raw to large breed puppies: /forums/topic/feeding-raw-non-commercial-to-large-breed-puppies/page/2/#post-33708.

[Mom2Cavs]

I posted back in Sept. and wanted to update what I’m doing now that’s working. For about a month now the dogs have been eating Annamaet Option for their kibble. Before that it was Fromm Salmon a la Veg and that was working fine, too. I’ve been adding as a topper canned foods. Mostly Wellness, either 95% Salmon, Lamb or Beef and Beef Stew. I also use Instinct Healthy Weight cans and Mulligan Stew Salmon and Fromm 4Star Beef or Pork. I use enzymes and pre/probiotics each meal. The ones I rotate with are Fresh Digest, Wholistic Pet Digest All Plus, Vetri-Science Mega Probiotics. Lucy gets a Maitake mushroom supplement from Vetri-Science for her cancer. Sometimes, actually rarely, I’ll add in a 3/6/9 supplement from Springtime, Inc. They also get a Fresh Factor chew from Springtime, Inc. in the morning. Recently, I tried substituting the morning meal for premade raw, but after about a week Laverne started having mild pancreatitis symptoms so I’ll probably stop doing that for now….I’m thinking about doing 2 morning premade raw meals a week and try that, instead of every morning. Maybe Tues. and Fri. I’m also thinking of actually trying some Annamaet Lean kibble….I know it’s chicken based, but I just want to see how Laverne does on it. I should be able to tell rather quickly if it’s bothering her. If it does, the others can eat it with no problem. I would also like to try Victor kibble (we may have it locally soon). Dr. Tim’s looks great, but I just don’t know, yet, if I’m up to trying it.

[Naturella]

Wow, it has been a while since I have looked at this topic – never thanked Patty for the useful information, so thank you, Patty!

Well, I finally managed to somewhat comfort my now husband (in my avatar, we got married on Friday), who is usually worried about feeding Bruno (also in my avatar) raw, but today we had a first real venture into it with a piece of pork neck bone and meat. Bruno loved it, and seems quite alright on it. I have 2 more pieces and plan to give them in the next 2 weeks (once a week basically), and see how that goes, and if he continues to be fine, I will see if I can increase it to maybe 2 times a week to 3. I also plan to introduce recreational marrow bones (the small ones, due to fatty marrow) sometime soon and change them once every couple of weeks or so, not so sure about that yet.

But yes, first real all-raw meal was served today and liked a lot. We seem to be in good shape for the occasional raw! 🙂

[Dori]

I too am sorry for your losses. It’s always a difficult thing to go through. I feed my three dogs grain, white potato, white rice free foods.
As someone else mentioned, if you check out the 4 and 5 star foods and read their ingredient lists you can go from there. Many of us on this site find a food that our dogs do well on and then continue the search so that we can have a few different brands and proteins to rotate through. Some rotate from bag to bag others rotate more often. I don’t really feed kibble any more (I feed commercial raw, also The Honest Kitchen which is a dehydrated food that you just add water to) and am just starting to delve into doing homemade raw meals. When I did feed kibble, some of the brands I really liked were Brothers Complete (you can only buy it on their website but they have very very quick delivery and great customer service, it’s a family run business), Zignature, Victors (you can also order Victors on Amazon, Natures Logic, Acana just to name a few.

Keep in mind that, and it’s only my way, when I first bring a puppy home (or any dog for that matter) I usually keep them on the same food they were eating for the first two weeks. My feeling is that they are going through enough stress with moving to a new home, new people, etc. that I think it’s just a little easier on them that at least something in their lives is familiar to them. Then I start the slow transition to a food I’m comfortable feeding and also comfortable with the companies website and where they source their ingredients and what plants are used to produce their food. I try to make sure I then research what other dog foods that plant may be producing and, of course, have there being any recalls on any of them.

On the top left hand section of this page is a wonder list of Dog Food Recalls and you can also sign up to be put on their email list for dog food recalls as they happen.

Hope any of this has helped. Good luck with the new puppy. Let us know how you make out. Oh, and ask all the questions you want.

[RescueDaneMom]

Sue’s Zoo,

I’m not 100% sure but I think that HDM doesn’t feel the need to give her dogs a lot of fruits/veggies. I think that’s why there’s a big difference in the amount of veggie mix in HDM’s recipes versus Dr. Becker’s. I don’t think you’re going to throw off the calcium/phosphorous with the differing amount of veggies. I imagine you could feed them more or less veggies depending how their systems handle it and if they like it or not. The main component of calcium/phosphorous in the meat/bone. I believe the supplements in HDM’s recipes are for 3 adult dogs in the 65-75 pound range (I think, going by memory here). If you are unsure about the amounts of supplements you should be giving for your dogs’ weights just ask. I know I wrote it all down once.

Hopefully more people will chime in. I’ve only been doing raw for about 6 months now so I still consider myself new at it. Good luck!

[raylene5]

Thanks so much everyone for the replies! It’s not so easy for me to just “not discuss nutrition” with my vet…maybe it’s something I need to learn 🙂 I just have so little patience and tolerance for someone trying to preach to me how raw is not good (and give really ridiculous arguments as to why it’s not).

We have a more holistic-type of vet near us who also does vaccinations and minor surgeries…full-service care. But they are so much more expensive than a traditional vet. The price for the initial puppy visit (not including vax) with the traditional vet was $60. At the holistic vet, the initial consult is $200!!!

Anyway, I will try the kelp or spirulina (maybe at Whole Foods or a nurtrition store?) and see if that helps with the grass. We don’t use pesticides or fertilizers on our grass so it doesn’t really bother me that he eats it, I just don’t want it to cause him to throw up.

Thanks again for all the help!

[mountainhound]

I’ve been feeding raw for about 5 years (mostly pmr and some premade). I’m always rotating protein sources since my dog doesn’t have any digestive issues and tolerates it well. I also like to add fresh whole foods for variety which depends what I have on hand. I tend to stick with certain staples though that I add daily which includes salmon oil for omega 3’s and seameal blend for trace minerals. I also recently started using olewo carrots and beets which have been a huge hit and seem to benefit his skin/coat and prevent counter surfing. He also gets fresh egg couple times a week for additional vitamins or as a treat.

Curious to see what other raw feeders supplement with. Any product you absolutely swear by and why do you use it?

[Shasta220]

It doesn’t sound like your boys are on good food at all. You have awesome intentions, but the nutritional value just isn’t there.

I really don’t recommend puppy food, especially not ANYTHING under the Purina brand. Look into 4-5 star foods on this site. There are some forums on here with lists of the most affordable ones, as I imagine the food bill to get high.

No no no to hot dogs. They are very very processed, and whatever nutritional values were in them got processed right out. I’d suggest going to your local butcher/grocery store, and buying raw meats/bones like chicken, beef, etc. Those are much better meat sources… And I’d avoid any jerky designed for people too, it has extra salt and often sugar that dogs don’t need. Try making your own jerky by slicing meat and baking it in the oven until it’s chewy. (EDIT: oops, sorry, just saw that you’ll make your own jerky instead of store bought. Good good.)

The other posts have said no over feeding, and I can’t emphasize that enough either. It is especially important that you don’t over feed the puppy, as giant breeds will tend to grow as much as their food intake allows. If they grow more than their body was designed for, it will put horrible stress on their bones/joints, no matter how fit they are as an adult.

Another note on food: it will probably be a bit tough on your wallet when you switch to a premium food, but in reality, the risk is NOT switching. When they’re on quality food, they will need to eat less, much less.
My 90lb APBT mix, Otto, ate 9c of Dog Chow daily, and was still very very lean/fit. When we finally moved him up to a 3-star Nutra Nuggets, he went all the way down to 2c daily with no weight change.
Another miracle story of what food switches will do: we’ve fed our dogs 1-3 star foods for about 10yrs sadly. Our lab had Otitis, and ALWAYS had a disgusting smell to her, as well as hot spots and shedding. She also was acting very lethargic (we figured it was just her age). When we switched her to a quality food, she lost about 5 years of her age in just a few months! She was bouncy, happy, wanted to play fetch, and had ZERO odor to her!

So switching their food will give you amazing benefits, I promise. 😉

• This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by Shasta220.

[jakes mom]

I agree with the other comments, cats can be so hard to please, can’t they? I also have a female, Julie, who has always seemed underweight, scrawny, to me but checks out completely healthy every vet visit. She’s 14 years old now. I feed her separately from my other 4 to allow her to eat as much as she wants without interference. Nothing you can do but keep trying flavors and textures.Mine range in age from 12 to 18 years and do well on Chick soup and Merrick brands. I swap back and forth otherwise they seem to get bored.They also like a bit of mashed pumpkin or winter squash and that’s good fiber for the hairball problem. Just a spoonful a couple of times a week. Finally, for the kitties that don’t like canned food, I’d suggest one of the water fountains. My guys love theirs, it’s ceramic and keeps the water nice and cool and they love the movement. I know they drink a lot more than they ever did before. They were a little wary of it at first but it only took a couple of days for them to get used to it.

[InkedMarie]

Dori, you’re correct, the tech or the vet asks me what I food but I get that “huh” look. Most of them haven’t heard of the kibble I’ve fed, haven’t heard of The Honest Kitchen and most don’t agree with raw but they just shut up.

[Dori]

Another thought you may want to consider is that it’s not so much the dog food as it is the water. I feed high quality 5 star foods and raw and have never had the problem. I did though have the problem when I gave them regular tap water. A groomer friend of mine years ago suggested I switch to filtered water and immediately did the trick. To this day they drink filtered water and we’ve not had the problem again. It has to do with the ph in the water they drink. Hope this gives you another avenue to consider.

[gmcbogger38]

Years ago we had a Jack Russell who had terrible skin problems. We tried Dinovite and it completely cleared up her issues. Now, I have a Saint Bernard who has been having chronic ear problems and she has a odor that won’t completely go away when bathing her. Now she hasn’t had a bath in a couple months and she smells even worse. I have tried expensive high quality grain free and potato free dry foods and even raw (homemade with no grains, etc) and nothing has worked for her. I am finishing up a grain inclusive food right now and so far I have noticed improvements in her from being on grain free (seems opposite of what should happen). I will be putting my dogs on Victor dog food, since I have read some good reviews about it. I will give the food about a couple months and if I haven’t noticed her ears and eyes clearing up I have thought about trying Dinovite again. Now, my hesitation with it is the cost so I am wondering if anybody else has a suggestion of a supplement similar to Dinovite that might be cheaper please let me know. Thanks.

[doggiemama]

Our sighthound is coming off 3 weeks of what started as diarrhea and developed into Pancreatitis. He just turned 9 and has been fed foods like Canidae, raw, California Natural Grain Free all his life. Because he has a history of GI problems our vet was suggesting things like surgery to do some biopsies. Of course, surgery is a last resort, so we thought we were doing reasonably well, and then this last episode started and he came up with a Pancreatitis diagnosis. I really feel like a fish out of water now. The vet wants him on Hills ID. I am unhappy with that on so many levels (so is our furrkid). I am having a lot of difficulty understanding how a corn food with numerous other unknown ingredients, some chemicals and by-products, can be better than a food with only a few ingredients that are cleanly prepared and occur naturally in a canine’s natural “wild” environment. Pancreas issues are concerning, however, so I feel I need to defer to Vet judgment at this time. If anyone has knowledge of other good quality diets or diet guidelines for a pooch in our doggie’s boat, I sure would like to hear about it. Thanks.

[theBCnut]

I had to laugh and hard when I read that cavemen sat around all day!!! That was one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. Dogs do have trouble digesting raw PLANT matter, but not raw animal matter. What a ridiculous argument for why processed foods are better for you.

My vet doesn’t like raw, but other than that, she isn’t that moronic.

Try adding a supergreen like spirulina, kelp, or alfalfa to your dogs food and see if that curbs the grass eating. It did for mine, but some dogs just like to graze.

[theBCnut]

I have used everything under the sun at one time or another. Now, I’m feeding my dogs half raw and I haven’t had a problem with fleas last year at all. If I have a problem this year, I’m going to make my own spray with essential oils that are know to be vermifuges and insecticides.

If you have carpeting, work diatomatious earth or borax into the carpet before spring arrives. If you don’t, vaccuum a lot, especially around cracks, crevices, and furniture.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Leah-
Just to add to my last post. If I had a bigger pet food budget, I’d definitely be checking out the Nature’s Variety Instinct kibble and possibly trying to feed more fresh and/or raw foods. Have a great day!

[crazy4cats]

Leah-
Sounds like you are on the right track! Read through Dr. Mike’s library of informative articles on the review side of this website. Empower yourself by learning as much as possible. Then, most importantly read the ingredient labels and analysis of what you are going to feed. I just looked at the pretty packaging and listened to those crazy commercials before I ran into some issues with my pets before I got smarter. You are already past that! I am currently feeding Victor grain free with great results. I think most of their food has poultry except for the fish based kibble. I’m not sure how you feel about fish. I’m going to try it next. I also add toppers, such as, canned, sardines, raw nuggets and eggs to their kibble. Have fun with your new pup!

[raylene5]

Took our 12 week old Miniature Schnauzer puppy to the vet for his first check up yesterday and, like with most vets I’ve ever met, I sure didn’t like her. I had called ahead of time and asked if the vets at this office are supportive of raw feeding and was assured that they are. Well, as soon as I told her I was feeding raw (Primal Pronto and ZiwiPeak) she gave me the spiel about contaminating the kids with his kisses and salmonella.

So Kamper has been eating grass since he got to our place. He was born in Arizona and had not seen grass at all before so at first I thought it was just curiousity. When I told the vet I was concerned about his eating the grass, she said it was probably because he was on a raw diet and that dogs can’t digest raw foods. That, like our bodies, they can better digest processed foods (she brought up how when we were cavemen we ate a lot of uncooked food and just sat around digesting it all day). Now, the good thing was that she did suggest very high quality kibble (Orijen, Acana, etc…) and not the typical vet-endorsed Science Diet or anything like that.

Anyway, it was a frustrating visit. I just wanted to know if anyone else’s vet had said these things about processed foods being easier to digest for their dogs.

[Leah12345]

Thank you Shasta220! I wasn’t kidding when I said I didn’t know what I was doing. What you said makes sense. I will keep fillers to a minimum. A neighbor recommended Earthborn grain-free so I will do some reading on this site about that. I like the quality of Fromm’s but she is a 12lb dog who poops at least 3 times a day and even thought the consistency is right, it is a lot of stool. Adding raw meats is a good idea. I welcome any and all suggestions!

[Shasta220]

I honestly wouldn’t agree about adding rice in. It is considered a “filler” food and provides little-to-no nutritional value to a dog. That’s something that’ll go right through her stomach and contribute to more frequent/bigger stools, really. I’d definitely say I agree with crazy4cats. This site can help out a lot with finding a limited ingredient super-quality food for her.
Possibly to reduce fillers even further and get a protein boost you could add in your own raw meats to her food?

[Shasta220]

Ah, I see. That makes much more sense to me for sure! Dogs don’t even need carbs do they – I mean there’s no carbs in meat, is there? I remember the vet asking what we fed our cat (she’s too picky for cat food), I told her raw chicken and she gets an occasional treat of oatmeal and peanut butter (it’s her fave, LOL!), the vet made sure I knew to avoid the oatmeal for her…

[theBCnut]

I switched him to Brother’s Complete. It’s specifically designed to help with gut problems. Soon after that I started giving him one raw meal a day. That’s how I tested out different proteins and such. For Micah, keeping him low starch seems to be a big component or keeping him stable. He can actually handle high fat just fine, but it took me a while to figure that out.

[Shasta220]

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I guess I was relatively on the right track. I always make sure real meat is at least the first 2 ingredients in the kibble that I buy.

Patty is right, slvet2 – dogs are designed to handle the raw meats very well, even better than cooked meat. Always good to consider what they would eat in the wild… I don’t think a wild dog/wolf knows how to build a fire and roast his venison over it.

Where do you find that dogs should have 2 parts carbs for 1 part protein? I just always find myself thinking about a natural diet they’d have in the wild, and I cant think of anything they’d naturally eat that would give them carbs, except possibly grain remnants in a stomach or something… Not that I know much about great nutrition, as I’ve never studied out dog nutrition or had personal experience too much.

[Sue’s Zoo]

I’ve been catching a lot info about commercial raw as I research whole food or DIY raw. According to what I’ve read some, including NV, include denaturants. They may not add it themselves but it’s there when they get it. At least that is the info I found from 2012. Bravo does not as theirs is essentially fit for human consumption. I believe Primal is the same. I would like to see DFA include this info when evaluating a dog food. Also some raw food providers sell denatured meat. If it’s a concern for you, just be sure to check your provider.

MPC clearly states that theirs does not. And I checked with RPI and they do not use denatured meats. Looks like Big Dan’s Trucking does.

Anyone have more info?

[Sue’s Zoo]

Well said Patty! I love my vet. But when it comes to feeding, they just seem to be following the typical path.

I started on this quest because EVERY single dog I’ve had in the last 30+ years died from cancer of a digestive organ. And they were on higher end kibble. There has to be a reason and diet is obviously the first consideration. Even though several of my dogs lived a ‘normal’ life span for their breed, some did not. And how do we know that normal wouldn’t be higher if all dogs ate raw and/or natural diets?

Since first discovering this forum when I wanted to find the best foods for my new puppy (months before he came to us), I have spent uncountable hours researching raw vs kibble and have found so much evidence supporting raw that I can’t imagine any other reason (except the one Patty mentions) for the AVMA to have a problem with it. Because even though I’m sure there are some feeding raw that aren’t fully balancing the diet and must choose lower grade food and less variety as they feed their beloved pets, I still cannot believe what they’re doing is more harmful than some comparably priced kibbles.

What has most impressed me is the obvious interest and care raw food proponents have shown in searching for the best they can provide for their pets AND their willingness to educate others. Most I’ve come into contact with are intelligent people who spend many, many hours researching and preparing the best food possible. I have yet to see one of them disparage another pet owner for feeding kibble etc. They have, instead, recommended the best possible kibble for their price point and offer suggestions for rotation etc to get as much benefit as possible.

Which reminds me to say thanks once again to all the wonderful people on this forum–Patty, HDM, RDM and many others–that spend time answering so many questions from others (me included) who are just learning about better nutrition for their dogs.

[RescueDaneMom]

Sorry I don’t have a lot of time to respond during the week. I just moved and started a new job and am still settling in to a routine.

Hot dogs, no matter the quality, are still processed meat. I try to avoid it at all costs. Most of the calories in hot dogs (80%) come from fat. They also have preservatives and a lot of sodium. I use nutritiondata.com to get a general idea of the nutritional profile of different foods. Giving your dogs eggs (raw or cooked) and fresh meats like chicken breast and thighs and beef is the way to go. As far as feeding raw, you shouldn’t be leaving the food down for anywhere near an hour. It only takes my dog 5-10 minutes to eat his food. The general rule of thumb is to let them eat for 15 minutes and then pick up the food. If there is any left, put it in the refrigerator in a covered container. You can feed what is left at the next meal.

That’s just my two cents. As always, I hope it’s helpful in some way. I share the same attitude as you- I am always willing to learn and I welcome those who want to share their knowledge with me.

[theBCnut]

No raw meat is not difficult for a dog to digest, raw meat has active enzymes in it that help with digestion. Enzymes are destroyed by the cooking process. And kibble can also be contaminated with pathogenic bacteria. Healthy dogs don’t have problems with bacteria due to their short digestive tract. It is people who have to worry about bacterial contamination and they are much more likely to be properly careful handling raw meat that they are handling kibble that they think is safe.