[little pea]

PattyV

The leaky gut. I read about this a few days prior and was shocked. Especially because the girl’s highest allergy was to yeast. And I knew stolen loaves of bread from the counter were having some effect.
In addition in Feb/March we had one of the worst bouts of overall scratching, paw chewing and ear infection. The weather was wet and she had been recently professionally groomed. And dog loves to just stand or lay down in the rain. Primary suspect yeast infection . So began a steroid, pills, and medicated ear wash… the ears taking over 2 weeks to clear.
She looked and acted perfect in April/May.
Late May blowing coat and itching, itching and coat continues to fall well into June. Itching starts up, I don’t recall heavy paw chewing. I flew in a professional newf groomer prior to a late June show and we had long talks on coat care, drying, etc etc… and etc And a steroid shot.
I do not think we have leaky gut, but my gut says yeast is on a high watch list.
I did talk to a Holistic vet clinic and they even suggested a special Derm vet…which does scratch test as opposed to blood. I thinks it is too far to go.
The dog’s skin at this time is in perfect condition and has been since April. Yet we continue with the face, ear, and frequent scratch to those areas and a frontal paw chew. After switching to Ziwi peak venison in June red eyes and the clear discharge have pretty much been eliminated. No red eyes.

The newbie in me is digging for answers, but I feel some simple solutions are more practical.
A raw diet…with supplements. Just need to figure it all out.
Thank-you.
You seem to be, a pretty sharp cookie.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you have the time making homemade raw would be much cheaper and it would be easier to tailor the diet to your dog’s specific food issues.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Okay gotcha. No, what we feed wouldn’t be considered “prey model.” Those that follow prey model believe dogs should eat meat, bones and organs only – nothing else. Many refer to ground raw meat and veggie diets as “BARF” style. I would consider my feeding style to be a BARF/Prey Model Hybrid. My dogs get a prey model style dinner each night (RMBs and whole offal) but their breakfast is ground with veggies and whole food supplements.

As far as garlic it’s very beneficial if given in small quantities but I’m not sure how much it would increase the palatability. My girls get a couple cloves three days per week. Garlic is a natural broad-spectrum antibiotic. Garlic is also a prebiotic and contains antibacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral and anti-carcinogenic properties. The sulfur content also acts as a natural insect repellent. You’d want to give the following amounts 3 – 4 days per week: under 10 lbs – 1/4 clove; 10 to 20 lbs. – half a clove; 20 to 50 lbs. – 1 clove; 50 to 75 lbs. – 2 cloves; 75 to 100 lbs. – 2 and a half cloves; 100 lbs. and over – 3 cloves.

[EHubbman]

I should clarify a bit, haha! The things I was reading were more along the lines of 50% meat/bone/organ and 50% raw fruit and veg (or other ratios around those amounts), which is why I was wanting to stay away from those, because that kinda seems like an obnoxious amount of fruit/veg. I was finding these ratios on pages for the BARF diet, where prey model raw pages were more towards meat/bone/organs with supplements.

More what I mean by feeling more towards prey model is what I’m seeing more frequently here and among those I know that feed raw. The main majority of the meal is meat/bone/organ, but they do supplement with good stuff. (Am I calling it the wrong thing by saying prey model?)

Patty, that mix sounds like a good treat! I’m sure Dom would love it, he loves frozen treats.

HDM, Thanks! I’ll definitely be checking in on those books. A good friend just recommended “Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals” by Lew Olson, so I’ve been trying to read that.

Random thought, since I’ve seen it a few times on forums: Garlic for dogs? I would think that since it’s a member of the allium family, wouldn’t it be bad for dogs? Yet I see people saying “add it to the food to make your dog eat it!”

[EHubbman]

Kind of in the same vein as feeding green things- I’m noticing some raw diet resources are mentioning the feeding of fruits and veggies. You guys’ thoughts on this? I personally think I’ll be sticking more with prey model raw, but just curious on what you guys have to say.

[beagleowner]

Started making dog food for Henry beagle. Consists of ground chicken thighs or lean hamburger, sweet potatoes, kale, peas, carrots, eggs. We are feeding him 2-1/2cups per day. He did weigh 48.4 lbs. and now is at 45.6. Our vet would like to see him get to 40 lbs. We also bought marrow soup bones and after he eats one, we fill it with pumpkin, freeze it and give as a nighttime treat. It makes his stoold loose. He is 14 yrs old and of course loves to eat. We also give him two chewable glucosamine tabs a day and one omega-3capsule that our vet suggested and sold to us.. Henry has lipomas (one very large). They have decreased on this homemade diet. My problem is that he is hungry and I am wondering if his nutrition is sound. (Of course I realize hounds can be constantly looking for food). I thought I could add some organic brown rice to his meal for bulk. When I called our vet to ask, the reply was to give him Hills ID, half homemade and half Hills. Well that puts me back to manufactured dog food. We were feeding him expensive kibble before and it contributed to his lipomas. Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. I don’t want to undo the good the homemade has done and yet I want to make sure he gets a good nutritious diet. We tried raw– no luck.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

It’s all pretty confusing when you start out isn’t it?

I would like to start out by saying I strongly disagree with those that say supplements aren’t necessary for a raw diet. The thing is, if a dog was eating whole wild prey daily this may be true but that’s not practical in real life. It would be next to impossible to feed an actual prey model diet so people approximate it by feeding ratios of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80:10:10) that mimic the ratios found in a whole prey animal. While this is a good estimate of the dog’s natural diet, it’s not going to provide all the nutrients a dog needs for various reasons: 1) Your dog isn’t getting the whole animal. When a dog eats prey in the wild it eats everything – all the organs, the glands, the brain, eyeballs, fur, feathers, sinew, some intestines and intestinal content, it even picks up some dirt of the ground where it’s eating. 2) Commercially raised meat such as what is available to us in the supermarket is not as mineral dense as wild prey. 3) Domestic dogs are bombarded with toxins on a daily basis that their wild relatives aren’t – i.e.) flea treatments, heart worm treatments, vaccines, exhaust fumes, cleaning chemicals, etc. etc. – and for this reason benefit from additional antioxidants in their diet that are provides through fruits, vegetables and whole super foods.

You do not need to supplement with enzymes when feeding a raw diet. Raw food contains enzymes. These enzymes are destroyed when the food is cooked and this is why kibble and canned foods should be supplemented with enzymes. Probiotic supplements are also a waste of money unless you have a dog with serious digestive issues. Feeding green tripe and/or plain yogurt and/or kefir at least a few times a week will maintain a healthy population of gut flora in a healthy dog.

You will need to add supplemental omega 3’s. You can do this by adding a quality fish body oil, cage free eggs or feeding a fatty fish such as sardines. If you want to feed sardines the recommend servings are (based on 3.75 oz. tin): 5 lbs. 1/4 tin, 15 lbs. 1/2 tin, 25 lbs. 5/8 tin, 50 lbs. 1 tin, 100 lbs. 1 3/4 tin – per week. If giving fish oil you want to add enough to provide about 100 mg. combined EPA and DHA per 10 lbs. of body weight. While the majority of a dog’s omega 3’s should come from animal sources, some plant based omega 3’s can be beneficial as well. If you’re feeding predominantly poultry, flax should be given to balance the fats and if you’re feeding predominantly red meat hemp seed should be given to balance the fats. My dogs get a cage free egg 3 days per week, Carlson brand salmon oil complete (with astaxanthin) daily and I also give small amounts of sprouted flax, sprouted chia, etc. If not supplementing with vitamin d, you should give cod liver oil as well. Carlson makes the highest quality cod liver oil – my girls each get 1 capsule of Carlson Super Cod Liver Oil daily which provides 250 IU vitamin d. If giving fish oil it’s very important not to skimp on quality – fish oil is one supplement you don’t want to find a bargain on. The cheaper brands are often rancid at purchase and don’t contain enough antioxidants to prevent oxidation. Coconut oil, as Patty pointed out, is comprised of MCT’s. Coconut oil can be given in addition to (but not instead of) omega 3’s. Coconut oil has antibacterial and antifungal properties. You can give up to 1/2 tsp. per 10 lbs. of body weight daily. My girls get coconut oil daily, I find it’s a healthy way to increase the fat level of their meals.

As Sandy pointed out, vitamin e is also necessary to add – this is especially important when supplementing with omega 3’s as vitamin e prevents the delicate fats from oxidizing in the body. For dogs <25 add 50 – 100 IU per day, 25 – 50 lbs. 100 – 200 IU per day, 50 – 75 lbs. 200 – 300 IU per day, 75 – 100 lbs. 300 – 400 IU per day, >100 lbs. 400 IU per day. I use NOW Foods Gamma E Complex – it has all 8 tocopherols and tocotrienols.

Other supplements my dogs get:

-A homemade super food mix. I generally use 1 part kelp, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part spirulina, 1 part wheat grass and 1 part bee pollen although I’ll sometimes sub in a different ingredient for variety. I buy most of my ingredients from Swanson or Starwest Botanicals in 1 lb. bags. This provides vital trace nutrients to the diet. I’d recommend about 1 tsp per 25 – 30 lbs. (roughly) for a supplement such as this.

-I give my dogs colostrum 3 days per week. Colostrum is high in immunoglobulins which helps strengthen the immune system.

-They get a glandular 3 days per week (opposite the colostrum). I use Natural Sources Raw Multiple.

If you read through the raw menu section I have my dog’s full menus (with supplements) posted.

I prefer to balance my dog’s diets using whole foods versus adding synthetic supplements. The nutrients from whole foods are more efficiently assimilated by the body and contain all the necessary co-factors for optimal absorption and utilization. There’s also a much lower chance of overdosing on nutrients when using whole foods.

If you have any more questions don’t be afraid to ask. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

I know what you mean. I couldn’t keep up either and I kept getting certain things mixed up(still do) so I started an index card file to tell me what certain supplements are good for and what dose to give. I still have to go back through a couple threads and pick out th info I wanted to save. Like cod liver oil, I think you give it for the Vit D, but I’m not sure. And You have to be careful to get the right brand(I don’t remember which) or don’t give it very often, because it has too much vit A, again I think. That is one I don’t worry about because I only feed part raw. But one of these days…

BTW, cocnut oil is digested differently because it is a medium chain triglyceride, so it isn’t taxing to the pancreas if you find you need to add more fats to your dogs diet for some reason. It has both antibacterial and antifungal activity and it is good for the coat.

[theBCnut]

WOW!! That is a lot of questions. Some of them HDM is the best source for answers, but I can tackle a few.

Probiotics are the good micro-organisms in the gut and they are a huge part of the immune system, because they compete with bad micro-organisms and thereby keep their numbers small. They are naturally occurring in tripe.

Prebiotics are food for probiotics, they are fibers that the probiotics love, they aren’t all created equal though, some prebiotics feed the bad stuff just as well as the good.

Enzymes carry nutrients where they need to go in the body and aid in digestion. There are already enzymes in raw meat, but in processing for kibble they are destroyed. Dogs make enzymes, but some do not make enough, because they were made to get them out of their food. And the body adjusts enzyme production to match the diet, so if a dog was getting a high carb, low protein diet for a long time, it may take a while for its body to get used to the different need for enzymes when the diet is changed. Digestive enzymes are the ones that are specific to digestion.

Spirulina is a blue green algae that is chockful of micronutrients, which are all the little things that a body probably needs, but science hasn’t determined how much of what or what for, so dog food companies don’t have to add them back into the food.

Fish oil, fish body oil are sources of omega 3s and need to be fresh so putting it in a bag of kibble may not be a good thing. Krill are little shrimp, otherwise the same applies to fish oil. Krill oil is supposed to be better. It has some of those micronutritents in it and a higher level of quality omega 3s.

As for why some say use them, don’t use them etc. There are what I consider raw food purists, that don’t feed anything except whole carcass raw prey. Period. They believe that since that is how wolves evolved, that is what you should feed dogs. Then there are those that recognize that we don’t live in that world anymore. That the world we do live in has pollution and food animals that were not raised as prefectly as we could want and therefore are lacking some of those things that if we lived in a perfect world they would have. They feed antioxidant rich foods to help rid the body of toxins and other foods to help make up for the perceived lack in the prey animals. And then there is every shade in between.

My fingers hurt, someone else will have to provide more. Or I will later.

[EHubbman]

Complete newbie here! Reading the forums, I see so many things on prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, digestive enzymes, fish oil, krill oil, emu(?) oil, cod liver oil, fish body oil, coconut oils, etc, the list goes on and on! (What the heck is spirulina?)

What are these things, and what do they do? What are the pros/cons of giving them? Where do they come from (supplements v. naturally occurring, such as in a specific part of a raw diet)? When is it appropriate to give them, and how much per day per weight of dog?

Sorry for all the questions! Like I said, complete newbie, and looking in to starting a raw diet with my little guy. Some people say “yes, supplement!” While others say “Yes, but only THESE supplements,” while still others say “no, don’t supplement! If you feed raw right, you don’t have to!”

There’s so much info out there and this fourm has been such a wonderful help on other issues, I thought I’d throw this one out there.

Thank you for the help!

[SandyandMila]

I have a 5 lb. box of pork neck bones I haven’t opened yet because I’m waiting for my Hare Today order to come in. By then it’ll be about 3 weeks since putting them in the freezer and I’ll be starting and all raw diet. I think I’ll start with the neck bones and see how she likes it. Just wanted to know what others thought of ground pork. 🙂

[Hershy]

Hi, Patty,
Thanks for your post. Well said about the topic of Vets and animal nutrition…always room for improvement, right?…by me, too! I definitely plan to do a much better job feeding my “kids” a delicious and healthy diet.

HI, HDM & Patty,
And looks like I may get a second chance with my Charlotte girl. I am thankful that Charlotte’s cancer screen came back negative yesterday evening, but Vet held back saying there was none, in that she said she sampled only a small portion, so could still be early stages. I’ll take that, and look at it as another chance to do a better job with her. If she has it, at least it is very early.
Thanks, HDM and Patty, for encouraging me to go ahead with the test. Of course I needed to know. Not sure what I was thinking.
Now, moving forward with her new diet, mostly raw. I will start with her, and slowly add the other 3. Although I have already transitioned all to 4 & 5 star kibble. I top my puppy, Crystal’s, Nutri-Source Lg. Breed puppy food with Merrik Grain Free Tripe, and the 3 big dogs have been getting Pro Balance Canned as a topper.
I can’t thank you all enough for this education I continue to receive. How I nourish my dogs will keep improving, and I will definitely keep in touch with this forum.
Will soon add the raw food forum to my list of preferred reading : )
Patty, hope your dog’s result was at least as good.
Thanks, again!

[EHubbman]

Ok! Back from the vet!

I was seriously not impressed with the care we got from the one I’d been bringing family pets to since I was six, so we went elsewhere. That seriously miffed me. They’d been great with all our other pets, but then I brought in my little guy at 14 weeks (!) and I think the vet just had it out for him because he’s seen as a bully breed. Vets shouldn’t be breedist, methinks, because they see good and bad examples of all breeds, big and small, bad rep or not. Off my soapbox, though. She wouldn’t believe me when I said he had tapeworms and even brought in a sample with the segment clearly sitting right on top, among other things. I talked to her about giardia and she’s like, no he doesn’t have it, without testing and seemed quite reluctant upon my insistence of it.

SO! New vet, recommended from a friend, who also happens to be a vet tech there, which was wonderful. They were going to run the EPI and fecal pathogen test, but the vet did a wellness check on him and his body condition, activity level, and personality were all awesome, so we’re starting first with a diet change. She said the funny color stools were because the last vet’s response to my saying “please help, diarrhea for a month now” was just to throw antibiotics at him that did nothing, so his gut is all sort of out of whack. The did a wellness check, fecal float, coccidia and giardia tests, and a few other things I don’t remember off the top of my head.

We’re trying a royal canin RX GI food (ewewew, I cringe at the ingredient list!) for two weeks. So for two weeks, all he’s allowed to ingest is the GI food, and boiled chicken as training treats. She wants to keep him on the Fortiflora (because she’s used to it) just for now, but when I asked her about the 15 strain supplement you told me about, she was all for it. We went for the abrupt change because his gut is so messed up, and once he’s stable we’re going to slowly transition him to raw. I love that I found a vet that is all for raw and can’t wait to help me swap to it!!! She seems amazing, and I love her team. 🙂 If, though, the 2 week seriously limited diet does nothing, though, then he gets to go through a gauntlet of testing. She’s almost completely certain, though, that it’s dietary and not anything seriously wrong, which helps me breathe easier.

Although I’m not a fan of the GI food ingredients and fortiflora, I’m ok with it for now, just to get him sorted. I want to give this vet a chance to try what she knows before I just go “Ew, no.” and be the brat that asks for help but won’t accept what’s given as help. That and because she wants to start working him toward raw asap. Who knows. We’ll see where it goes.

Not sure I’m gonna be able to deal with the puppy eyes when he doesn’t get to have his dried trachea…or bully sticks… or duck feeties…. o.o Haha!

[Hershy]

Thank you, for getting back to me so quickly. I appreciate your wisdom and advice. You’re right. I need to know. I didn’t mean to make the cost of the test seem like the first consideration. I am on a pretty tight budget, but I will find a way to do what I need to do. I am putting the cart before the horse. I pray she doesn’t have cancer. She’s my special girl! I guess I have to prepare myself for the worst. I called them and told them to go ahead with the test. But I do know, if she does have it, I will not make her undergo a bunch of chemical treatment (as far as I know). I will to the alternative route for treatment, if necessary. And thank you for the information on what things to avoid, and to give. She is going to start on a raw diet as soon as I can get it together! I was making my own for part of last year, but got too busy. Poor Charlotte has been on inferior food for most of her life because I didn’t know any better. I have always switched up foods a little, but usually didn’t end up being to a food that was any better for her. They all claim to be the best. I am so grateful for this site. Why don’t dog food companies and especially VETS! learn about dog nutrition?? And then to recommend SCIENCE DIET!? I just wish I had seen this site 5 years ago,and maybe Charlotte wouldn’t be having these issues now.

I’m picking Charlotte up from the vet this evening, so am hoping for the best.
Thanks, again.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, as long as you are feeding grinds that contain meat/organ/bone in the proper proportions (such as the case with Primal and Bravo) and these grinds make up less than half of her diet (i.e. kibble for breakfast and grind for dinner) you would be fine just adding a whole food supplement (or even no supplement, but I believe whole food supplements are very beneficial). Are you able to get the Primal mixes? I used these when I first started feeding raw. I believe they’re 80% meat/organ/bone and 20% fruits, veggies and herbs. To use up the rest of your Preference I say just pick up some ground beef or turkey at the grocery store and use that following the instructions on the package.

[SandyandMila]

Can I just use the one I got periodically, it’s a big bottle that I really don’t want it to go to waste. I can add the green superfood to her diet once I get it and give her less of the multi. If I feed Preference with her homemade raw which has vitamins and minerals including kelp and alfalfa do I still need a green or multi supplement? I know HDM said u can’t overdose on them, just want to make sure I know what I’m doing. She’s already been getting bee pollen and the commercial raw she’s had has coconut oil, salmon oil, and ACV so I’d just be giving those with the homemade raw, right? The dry and wet food is only one or two days a week and will be less once my Hare Today order comes in.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

I would try to discourage him from drinking lake water – although not highly likely it is possible for dogs to contract giardia or leptospirosis from doing this. Has he been tested for Giardia (giardia can cause yellowish diarrhea) and is he on a quality multi-strain probiotic and digestive enzyme supplement? If not, I would have him tested for giardia (you have to specifically ask for this test, it won’t show up on a regular fecal and make sure your vet sends the sample to a lab – much more accurate than in-house testing) and get him on digestive supplements. You may also want to give an herbal digestive supplement (such as The Honest Kitchen’s Perfect Form) a try – some people have had a lot of success with herbal digestive supplements.

Orange tinged stool can be a sign of small intestine bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) – meaning the intestinal flora is off balance. This is common secondary condition with dogs who have endocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI). I would definitely discuss this with your veterinarian.

The Zignature Trout & Salmon formula is appropriate for large breed puppies and would be worth a shot if you want to try Zignaure – I believe the formulas are all fairly similar except for different proteins sources.

Raw would be a great option – especially for a sensitive dog. If this is something you’re willing and able to do that’s wonderful. It will be necessary to do a lot of research prior to embarking on a raw feeding regimen, however. I would recommend checking out dogaware(dot)com and picking up a copy of Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet.” You can also check out the recommended raw menus thread in the raw food forum – I have many of my crew’s menus posted.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Is Mila eating a homemade diet or commercial diet? (Sorry I’m drawing a blank here – I know you were trying raw but I can’t remember if you switched her completely to homemade raw or are just supplementing a commercial food with raw). If you’re feeding predominantly a commercially prepared balanced food (be it raw, kibble, etc.) I personally feel Mila would benefit much more from a whole food based supplement as opposed to a supplement such as this which consists of mostly synthetic vitamins and minerals (for more details on the benefits of whole food supplementation you can read the post I just made to sharkie on the large breed puppy thread). If she’s eating homemade food and you were planning on using this as a vitamin/mineral supplement, it’s not going to supply adequate levels of vitamin e or manganese (I don’t think I see managanese?) and I still feel that a whole food based supplement should be given in conjunction with a multivitamin/mineral. Sorry if any of this is repeated information or was already discussed, my brain isn’t all here today and I’m forgetting who I’ve talked to, what was said by who, etc. lol

[Hound Dog Mom]

Are you feeding a commercial raw diet or a homemade raw diet? If you’re feeding a commercial raw diet there would really be no need to add additional vegetables, but as long as they’re just added in small amounts I’m sure it would be fine. Sweet potatoes don’t get crunchy when baked so baked sweet potato wouldn’t add any crunch. A vegetable would have to be raw and in large pieces to be crunchy and dogs can’t efficiently digest vegetables in this form. Vegetables should be fed cooked and pureed. If you want to add crunch, feeding raw meaty bones (like turkey necks, chicken backs, etc.) would be a much better bet.

[EHubbman]

Also have a little guy with possible sensitivities? Needing some advice here, because I’m at a complete loss.

The whole timeline: 8 weeks, brought Dom home, had him on TOTW Puppy, which he stopped eating. We then switched to NV Rabbit, which he liked but got a smidge bored with, so I started adding different canned toppers. This whole time, his stools were normal and he was doing great.
After the small back of NV Rabbit, we switched to NV LID Turkey, which he did fine with for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks, though, he started getting diarrhea. In those 2 weeks, though, he also went swimming (and drinking) in a lake. He also go to play with his sister who, while she didn’t have fleas biting her, she had fleas on her (owner was in process of getting rid of them, I didn’t know this till later.). With how they were rough housing, I’m sure Dom ate a few fleas along the way.

So he has this diarrhea, and it’s not really going away. His stools softened then loosened. Took him to the vet and she gave him metronidazole (his stools were just soft, no mucus or blood) which did nothing for him. I took out the canned toppers, which also did nothing. I talked to a vet friend, and we talked about a few different things, including getting him on a bland diet to help sort him out. I went out to clean up the dog yard before this, though, and found a rice-sized white …thing? In his stool. Talked to the vet friend again, she said it was tapeworm. We ran into the vet, got Droncit and tylen powder (wormer and antibiotic.) So he was on a bland diet, took the dewormer. Had a solid stool full of odd white stuff (shed worms), Kept him on bland for a week with the antibiotics, and he did great. As soon as I started slowly mixing the NV LID Turkey back in, though, his stools got soft again. He also, though, went swimming in a different lake and probably drank some of that water, too. So I kept with the half and half (bland and kibble) to make sure it wasn’t the lake water upsetting his tummy. It wasn’t, so I went to find different food for him.

The gal I talked to at the local food store is suggesting Zignatture LI Lanb for him, but it’s not on the list of approved foods. What, in your opinion, should I do now? He’s currently back to bland, which I’m really not fond of because he’s not getting the nutrients he needs. This morning’s stool was firm, but slightly orange, and had two odd white things in it. Not sure what they were.

Should I take him to a different vet to get him a full work up, switch foods (and what to?), or…? This is my first time as an adult having a pup, and I’m really just lost now, because nothing seems to be working. I want to make sure and get him the best nutrition I possibly can.
Another friend and I spoke about just taking him full raw which, at this point, if it’s going to work for him, I’m not opposed to doing it but have no idea where to start and how to balance it for him.

Thanks for listening, all, and for any help or advice you have.

[k9cancer]

My Pyr 3 month old is on raw food. I woud like to give him some vege sups like sweet potato. Is that appropriate and if so portions and preparation help would be helpful.
I was wondering if I could bake them for a little crunch in his diet?
D

[NectarMom]

This is the only site I use also and while I don’t know as much as the others on here about Raw feeding I am certainly listening and learning. I for sure know Raw feeding is the best solution for our canines and felines and I have seen for myself the results but with my crew that has been on a kibble diet at least 3yrs of their lives we have to take it slow with the fat content in some proteins. I am grateful for finding this forum and appreciate the patience you all have had with me and my girls and the issues we have had. We seem to be on the right track with Raw this time around and will continue to improve with lots of time.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by NectarMom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi mah4angel –

The recommended serving size for garlic is generally (I want to say I found these in Dr. Pitcairn’s book):

<10 lbs. 1/4 clove
10 – 20 lbs. 1/2 clove
20 – 40 lbs. 1 clove
40 – 50 lbs. 1 1/2 cloves
50 – 75 lbs. 2 cloves
75 – 100 lbs. 2 1/2 cloves
>100 lbs. 3 cloves

You want to give your dog at least two days off per week. You want to finely mince the garlic and let it sit for 15 minutes before feeding to release the allicin. Also, exercise caution if your dog is ever on cyclosporine or blood thinners. Garlic can increase the rate at which cyclosporine is broken down in the body and decrease its effectiveness and it may increase the efficiency of blood thinners. Aside from this, as long as you follow the appropriate dosage, garlic is a safe and beneficial addition to the dog’s diet. My girld get two cloves each three days per week.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

It’d be worth asking – I’m sure they would save things like heart and liver for you anyways. However, I’d be hard to find someone willing to save the real goodies (i.e. the tripe, pancreas, spleen, etc.). When my dad got a deer last fall he told me I could have it and I asked if he could get me all the organs, glands and tripe and he told me if I wanted the tripe I’d have to go out to the woods and gut it myself. So I went out to the woods and gutted the deer myself. It really wasn’t that bad but then again I deal with extremely nasty and smell things on a daily basis for my job so there’s not much that grosses me out lol!

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI k9cancer –

Most dogs will overeat if given the chance – especially when they’re being fed a highly palatable diet (such as a raw diet). It’s very important to keep large and giant breed puppies lean during the growth phase as excess weight can increase the chances that the pup will develop an orthopedic condition. If his weight looks good do not feed him more. Just adjust his portions based on his weight – feed more if he looks too thin, less if he looks to heavy and keep portions as they are if his weight is healthy. The product packages are a good starting point for determining serving size but they aren’t always accurate – this is why it’s important to be constantly evaluating body condition. If he gets diarrhea again I’d recommend adding a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and supplementing with probiotics, if he’s fine now you could also start adding a little plain yogurt or kefir to his meals daily to start building his gut strength. If you want to provide him with food that has a “crunchy” texture for his enjoyment I’d recommend opting for raw meaty bones rather than kibble. The raw meaty bones will provide him with crunching a chewing pleasure as well as dental benefits – you may also find that he feels more satisfied after eating RMBs. You could replace a few meals a week with RMBs such as turkey necks or chicken backs. You can feed the RMBs with a bit of boneless meat or whole offal (hearts, gizzards, livers, etc.) to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio.

[Shawna]

Hi Lagotto,

We noticed (at the breeders) that she had excessive drinking and urination, as compared to her 5 siblings, when she was about 6 weeks old. She came to live with me when she was 9 weeks old. At about 4 weeks old she started failing to thrive — because she had a collapsing trachea and couldn’t get enough milk from her mommy. So the breeder put her on raw goat milk and egg whites, syringe fed every 2 to 4 hours, til she could eat on her own. She was weaned onto raw food — mainly hamburger, eggs, raw milk etc.

When she came to me I was making a home made raw diet for my current dogs and she went on that same diet. At her vet visit I told her holistic vet she urinated/drank a lot but her vet poo poo’d my concern and said puppies drink and therefore urinate more. She has bright eyes, she’s very smart, good coat quality etc. She’s a healthy puppy… In looking back I’m actually thankful that happened. Audrey continued on the homemade raw diet til her one year checkup where her bloodwork showed high bun and creatinine. I started tweaking her diet and would take her in every three months for additional bloodwork to see what the tweaking was doing. Turns out, the diet I had been feeding her all along was the best for her with one exception. To the diet I added a “prebiotic” and probiotics to help lower her BUN. Works like a charm..

Audrey continued on the homemade diet for several years but then I got too busy to keep up with homemade exclusively so I started incorporating commercial raw diets — Bravo as an example. Became busier yet and moved exclusively to commercial raw — Bravo, Darwins, Answers (recently started) and premixes like The Honest Kitchen Preference and Steve’s Premix with raw meats.. Audrey turned 7 years old the end of June and is still going strong. I have NOT lowered her protein. I have not lowered her phosphorus or made any other changes than adding prebiotic/probiotic and supplements. I use Garden of Life’s Primal Defense probiotic and Fiber35’s Sprinkle Fiber as the prebiotic. A really good prebiotic, made specifically for dogs, can be found on Dr. Mercola’s website under the “Pets” link and then under “Products”.

I would NOT regularly feed her kibble if I was paid to do so. In my opinion, kibble will cause a much earlier death in a kidney disease dog.. Kibble is a POOR QUALITY food for kd dogs/cats—even the best kibbles on the market… At the very least, feed a canned diet. If you can, feed raw or lightly cooked. I also don’t feed Audrey any grains. IF you are going to feed grains it needs to be either sushi rice (aka glutinous rice) or cream of wheat (or farina). These two grains are low phosphorus. All other grains have higher phosphorus and don’t add anything to the diet that can’t be found in a more species appropriate food.

You also want to feed higher fat foods — ditch the lean ground beef.. Feed the highest fat foods you can get (unless she is showing signs of pancreatitis). Fat adds calories without phosphorus—adding organic coconut oil is a good idea too. Protein is NOT damaging to the kidneys and only needs to be reduced to prevent symptoms of uremia in the later stages of the disease — such as vomiting or depression. Audrey has NEVER to date ate low protein.

Let her have ALL the water she wants. Audrey used to sleep in the water bowl when it was empty — she was that obsessed with water and, I’m guessing, desperately trying to tell me she needed some. She started this, sleeping in water dish, at the breeders. I kept potty pads ALL over the house for her. I was lucky in that she used them. During the night I keep her in a 4 foot by 4 foot enclosure we made (for our foster puppies). It was made out of wood and plastic chicken wire. I had her water bowl, her kennel, a blanket outside the kennel and a potty pad with LOTS of newspapers under it — she would fill a potty pad to the point of leaking during the night. As she got older she was able to hold it. Since about three months of age she has slept with me in my bed at nights.

Darwins now has a kidney diet.. I haven’t seen it yet but I do think it is worth checking out. Urban Wolf has a premix designed for kd dogs that can be added to raw or home cooked meats. And I think Grandma Lucy’s has a lower phosphorus premix that is also suitable for dogs needing their phos lowered..

Also consider adding a whole food B and C vitamin to the diet. These two vitamins are “water soluble” and because of the excessive urination can become depleted if not supplemented. I use Standard Process Cataplex B and C. I also give Audrey a whole food multi as a precaution. I use Standard Process Catalyn. Standard Process also makes a whole food supplement specifically for dogs with kidney disease. It’s called Canine Renal Support — I HIGHLY recommend using it. I also give liver support also by Standard Process — Canine Hepatic Support. The liver can become overstressed in a kd dog.

I HIGHLY recommend only using reverse osmosis or distilled along with a mineral water like Evian. Mineral waters (only those lower in sodium) have shown some positive benefits to kidney patients.

Also try to eliminate as many chemical toxins from your house as possible. I was already living in a relatively toxin free environment but I had to eliminate my Swiffer mop, candles ets. These have chemicals in them that the kidneys have to filter — putting an extra strain on them OR adding to the blood poisoning when the kidneys can’t filter as well. DO NOT use flea/tick or heartworm meds on her. And DO NOT vaccinate her. Audrey has only had one set of shots (given by the breeder before I got her) and has NEVER had a rabies shot. She was diagnosed before getting the shot and I was able to get a lifelong exemption for her in my state.

As mentioned, Audrey turned 7 last month and is not on any medications (no phosphorus binders, no sub-q fluids etc) just the supplements.

I don’t use it but I know others that have had positive results with the herbal tinctures from Five Leaf Pharmacy. http://caninekidneyhealth.com/ I would NOT follow their diet though… 🙂 http://caninekidneyhealth.com/

I would also highly recommend reading the material on Mary Straus’ dog aware website. This is the site where I got most of my knowledge / as well as courage to continue feeding Audrey a high protein raw diet. She has some EXCELLENT info on the site — when to feed low protein, when to lower phosphorus and how much (phosphorus is an essential mineral – lowering it too much too early can have unintended consequences), which foods are lower in phosphorus etc. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

Your puppy can still have a fantastic quality of life.. Learn as much as you can, stay positive and enjoy her fully!!!!!

If you ever want to chat offsite, I can be reached at shawnadfaemail @ yahoo. com (take out the spaces–they are included here to prevent robot spammers from sending me junk mail).. 🙂

[Anonymous]

We just recently “adopted” (adopted from the people who bought him from a breeder, as life changes happened) a Saint Berdoodle puppy, Tobi. He is now about 8 months old, we’ve had him for about 6-7 weeks.
He was on Purina Puppy Chow when we got him 😛
Locally we have Feeders Supply pet store, they carry lots of brands, including lots of holistic.
I picked out Professionals Large Breed Puppy.
I have 2 main concerns for feeding Tobi.. Nutrition, I want to feed him the best quality food I can afford. Cost, we are a one income family, with 2 kids and 2 dogs. I cannot afford to pay $50-60 for 25lbs of dog food.

Tobi did great with transitioning to the Professionals, but is now having loose stool (for about a week now). He still eats fine, and acts normal.

Im thinking of trying something different. And after reading several pages on this thread, Im seeing that perhaps I don’t need to be buying “large breed puppy” specifically?

I also have a Aussie mix senior dog (11yrs old), with no age ailments so far. Currently she is on Nature’s Recipe Senior, because it was at Big Lots for $30/25lbs . She is a picky eater, and seems to like it well.

I would love to find something they can both be on eventually? Or even now? Without breaking the bank.. 40-50lb bags would be great!

Currently Tobi is eating about 5 cups a day of the Professionals LBP… that bag is emptying fast!

This fall we plan to switch them to a 50/50 raw/kibble diet (with more research first) once hubby is able to get an extra couple of deer and turkey.

Any suggestions on brands to try, that are at least corn free, but I would prefer grain free, and are not going to kill my budget! 🙂

[Lagotto]

Hi Shawna, my 10 weeks old Lagotto has just been diagnosed with serious kidneys problems her BUN is way off chart her urine is almost as clear as water . She drinks over a liter of water a day. I have her for 21/2 weeks she hardly gains any weight. She is taller but very thin. The breeder offered to take her back and put her down. Apart from excessive drinking and urinating and not put on weight she is full of energy and really playful.I decided to keep her,the vet didn’t recommend any diet plan for her just told her to let she eats normal food, she eats puppies musli mix with raw met and let nature take it course. Her musli comprise of roll oats, dehydrate pea, carrot, bone meal plus all essential vitamins and minerals. Since she has been diagnosed I stop feeding her those food and go on low protein, low phosphorus, low sodium,. She got her appetite back with the meal I made which is 1 cup cooked white rice with one whole egg, two eggs whites, a spoonful of low fat ground beef. Cook in 1 Tb coconut oil. I sprinkle one capsule of fish oil, and grind 900mg of calcium carbonate to it. She has been eating this food for 3 days. Her weight is up for almost 200 g. I am not sure this diet is good enough for her growth. I ask the vet or phosphorus binder and start to sprinkle on her food. The vet now recommend pediatric junior digest & dental 29. I mixed a little of the dry food into home cooked . Her water intake is almost double her usual high intake. Your Audrey story is really inspiring . What do you feed Audrey? Home cooked or dry food.what is your strategy with Toilet train?

Many thanks, Lagotto

[katj813]

I know I may not receive specifics but I find info on the web too general so here’s a few specifics on my dog:
He’s an 11 year old terrier mix @19lbs. He has two heart conditions treated with Enalapril and fish oil. He has occasional arthritis in his back legs which is treated by dog aspirin as needed. He has an activity level between low and medium. Some days he has bursts of energy and likes visits to the dog park but the high energy is limited and he mostly sleeps. I currently have him on taste of the wild because while I do my best to get the best food I can, I have a college student budget.

I want to make sure my dog is getting the nutrients he needs to stay healthy so what sort of things should I look for in his food to meet his requirements and do you think TotW is covering it? I don’t have the time for raw and home made diets so I want to stick to dry food, he gets wet mixed in but it’s only for supplemental feeding so I don’t rely on it for nutrients even though he gets at least some from it. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[NectarMom]

I could ask them if they would save the organs for my mixes but normally they gut all the insides but being my hubby is boss man maybe they will do it just for me LOL. Won’t hurt to ask and I will have my hubby do just that.

[theBCnut]

I found that for me the price difference didn’t make up for having to buy bags or the hassle of defrosting, dividing, repackaging, and refreezing.

Yes, the deer meat would be worth it, very well worth it. Organic, free range, people pay arms and legs for that stuff. You will need to add back the calcium and all that, but boy am I envious. That might make getting a premix worthwhile. Can you get the organs too?

[NectarMom]

I know someone locally that does Deer hunting and they grind their own meat and make sausage but I want to ask them if they can do Venison for me but just the meat and no bone because they do not grind the bone into their meat. Do you think this would be ok? My husband works with them and they said they kill around 60 deer a year. My dogs are loving the Venison from Hare Today so is this worth asking if we can get some from his Employee?
Also it is cheaper to buy 5lb rolls from Hare Today so that is the route we go and I just thaw and refreeze in individual air tight bags.

[theBCnut]

I have my butcher cut off about 3 inches for Angel and cut the rest in half. One of them is a full meal for all 3 of mine.

[Cyndi]

The turkey necks I get from my butcher are about 1-1 1/2lbs also, but they cut them in half when they get them in, which is perfect for me to feed Bailey. I feed Bailey a half of a turkey neck along with gizzards and heart and/or liver.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Wow patty those are big turkey necks! The necks I get from my supplier are only 6 – 8 oz. each.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If feeding a meat/organ/bone/tripe grind I would say you’d be fine to feed 50/50 kibble and grind. You could do one meal of kibble and one meal of the grind. If you were to be feeding just meat, you’d want to be sure to keep it to 20% or less of the meal.

[theBCnut]

I get turkey necks from our local butcher and they are about 1 1/2 lbs each.

[InkedMarie]

Freehold: buy a scale!

[FreeholdHound]

I’ll have to remember the 1 lb rolls… Just got finished slicing through the 5lb roll -whew!! I don’t have a scale so based the patties on a Bubba Burger (very professional I know). I made a few smaller as starter packs. By the time I got done dividing up the ground sardines Harry was standing at the kitchen gate barking like a nut, so he got some for a treat. Blown away by the size of the turkey necks- that’s a new one for us.
Thank you soooo much for all the great replies! It all looks wonderful (well, as wonderful as raw meat & fish can look). Now lets hope he eats it!!! Lol

[Cyndi]

I TOTALLY agree about buying the 1lb. chubs instead of the 5lb ones. I ordered a 5lb one with my very first order and I will never do that again. I get all 1 pounders now. They are MUCH easier to work with! Let us know how Harry likes it! 🙂

[theBCnut]

I had to run off, but I had more, so here I am back.

FreeholdHound, you say you feed your dog 1 1/2 cups twice a day. That makes 3 cups total, so you can replace about 1/2 cup of kibble with raw. The 2 oz I suggested in my last post is about 1/8 cup, so you can double that amount and feed about 4oz of raw every day. You actually have a little more wiggle room than that, but I always found it easier to feed an amount of raw that worked for me and adjust the kibble portion, instead of the other way around.

BTW, the 1lb chubs are only pennies more and are way easier to deal with.

[theBCnut]

Thanks for bumping this Cyndi

I started to answer this and got called away and had it in my head that I had answered it. First, you can add up to 20% or 1/5 without throwing the balance off. Cut your roll into 1/2 lb pieces and refreeze any that you aren’t using immediately. Out of the 1/2 lb that you kept out, divide that into 1/4ths which would be about 2 oz and add that to her evening meal.

[Cyndi]

I am just posting here to bump up your question so someone, more knowledgeable than myself, can answer it for you. Your post, FreeholdHound, made me laugh. I was in the same position you are just a few months ago when I started my dog on raw. Good Luck to you…..& Harry! I hope he LOVES his raw food!

[FreeholdHound]

Ok…. So tomorrow I will be getting my 1st order of raw food delivered from Hare Today …. And I’m starting to hyperventilate. My goal is to have my 80lb Greyhound on a raw/kibble diet. What is the best way to start out? He now gets 1.5 cups of kibble twice/day. I would like to keep the AM meal straight kibble and add in the raw to the PM meal. I’m starting him out with the beef/organ/tripe/bone grind. I believe it comes in a 5lb roll so I’m not sure how to portion it out for freezing. I believe I read on Dog Aware that I shouldn’t exceed 3/4 kibble or I’d throw off nutritional balance. I believe I’m having a panic induced brain spasm so I can’t figure out how much to add of the raw. Am I rambling? Oh damn probably…. Advice (and a cocktail) needed 🙂

[husky3]

Hello,

I’m replying to my original post in regards to my Husky not losing any weight. We switched to a completely raw diet in February, and she is still gaining weight. 🙁 She weighs in at over 60 pounds now. She would have a poor body condition score. Can not feel ribs, or locate the spine or hip bones. Exercise has been a little less since it has been so hot lately, but I have also decreased her food amounts. Almost to the point that I’m not sure if she’s getting enough to sustain her daily needs. I don’t know what else to do at this point. I have two other Husky’s that are thriving! They have excellent body condition, and get just as much exercise, but with a lot more food, almost twice as much food!!

In May, we had an ultrasound done on her, and they said that there were some slight changes to her liver & kidneys, but nothing major. We also had her thyroid checked again, and ran tests for Cushings, Addisons, Diabetes, Diabetes Insipidous, and Atypical Cushings. They all came back negative. We ran an allergy panel as well, and she did have some environmental allergies that we are working on now with the drops.

While she tested negative for Atyp. Cushings, they did say her hormones were a little elevated, and we are treating that with Lignin and melatonin. I have seen a change in her attitude, for the better, but no weight loss.

She had an ear infection a couple weeks ago, and another one about 3 months ago, which is a new development. She also has red stained paws from her licking them, or perhaps it is a yeast overgrowth?

Does anyone have anything else to add to this conundrum? Any medical ailments that mimic cushings, or thyroid problems? At this point, I don’t think it can be diet related unless she is allergic to raw meat, and it’s not chicken.

Thank you for your help.
Tay

[Duke The Boxer]

Hdm i ended up going with wellness core puppy. The protein is pretty high and the fat is low. Can you give me tips on switching to a more ancestrial diet with higher protein and low carbs to then a more raw meat diet eventually as he uis only 3.5 months. Any tips helps. Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi neezerfan –

Once thawed raw food should be used within 3 days. I’m only aware of two pre-mixes designed to balance a bone inclusive diet – one is the whole carcass formula sold by Feline Instincts and the other is CarnivoreRAW without Calcium sold by Young Again Pet Food. A much cheaper route would be to just add a low calcium or calcium free human multi-vitamin, some veggies (or a fiber supplement) and omega 3’s. You could also learn to balance a recipe completely from scratch with whole foods (this is what I do) but it’s a bit more time intensive and takes a bit of research. Rabbit is high in bone (as are most smaller prey animals) but the calcium to phosphorus ratio is still balanced so it’s not necessary to add more meat. If you find that your dog is constipated you can certainly add more more (high levels of bone can cause constipation for some dogs) but I honestly don’t think it will be an issue. The rabbit heads should be fine for your dog, you’ll have to try them out and see though.

[mah4angel]

Even better!! That should make the transition easier and much MUCH shorter, actually ^_^ Wet food is, in general, healthier than dry food! Now that I know that your baby is already eating wet food and doesn’t need to be transitioned from dry to wet, I can offer you a whole new (shorter) transition plan (if you don’t mind), I just copied and pasted my old plan and deleted and reworded some stuff haha. All I can say is remember to transition properly! It’s very important!!

-Change from Science Diet to a four-star wet food (something like the Nature’s Domain wet food-which is sold at Costco and is not yet listed on this site but that I’m positive would receive a four-star mark: http://www.naturesdomainpetfood.com/about-natures-domain/natures-domain-grain-free-turkey-and-pea-stew-for-dogs, or Artemis Fresh Mix canned food: /dog-food-reviews/artemis-fresh-mix-dog-food-canned/).
I’ve selected these because they have decent fat-to-protein ratios. The fat-to-protein ratio should be around 50% (Hill’s Science Diet Adult Canned Dog Food has an average fat-to-protein ratio of 68% so we’re trying to start to reduce the fat-to-protein ratio with these four-star foods).

-Then from a four-star wet food to a five-star wet food (like the Earthborn dinners: http://www.petflow.com/product/earthborn-holistic/earthborn-holistic-duke-s-din-din-gourmet-dinner-wet-dog-food).
These tubs have an average fat-to-protein ratio of about 47%, pretty much perfect. Like I said before, I HIGHLY recommend Earthborn products!! These come in great, easy to re-seal tubs in a variety of flavors. I used them for Louie to get him used to a higher moisture content.

-Then go to a 100% raw kibble (these raw kibbles come “dry” BUT they need to be re-hydrated with water so it really is more of a wet food than anything) like DNA (air-dried raw, stands for Dried N Alive): http://www.dnapetfood.com/node/20, or something similar.

-And then transition from that to a pre-made frozen raw OR you could totally cut costs and make your own (which is what I’m doing), and then you’ll have 100% control over what she’s eating 😀

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by mah4angel.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by mah4angel.

[molliesmom]

My poor 10-yr-old female English Springer gets two to four UTI’s a year (for three years now). Vet puts her on heavy duty antibiotics and just recently suggested Craninadine which she’s been on for a few months now and yet another UTI!
She’s had crystals too, but not this time. Her urine is very diluted so I’ve been told to cut back on her water intake.
She is on thyroid meds and doing well with that (not so ravishingly hungry and weight back to normal)
AS FOR CAUSE: she’s been tested for other things – vet doesn’t see anything. She DOES lick herself often (you know, lady parts) and vet thinks she keeps transferring bacteria from her mouth to there and may be causing UTI. And her teeth and breath have gotten so bad because of that! I’ve asked about probiotics but no real enthusiasm from vet.
BEHAVIOR: Outdoors often (fence). Highly intelligent, stubborn and high-strung. Has more obsessive habits as she ages. Examples: more barking; she LOVES rabbit poop! YUK! Vet says that would not contribute to UTI problem, but I wonder, and try my best to keep her from it – we have so many rabbits in the yard! I also wonder if the licking is more behavioral.
I am with her all the time due to my disability, so she’s hardly ever left alone.
DIET: Here’s where I could use some advice. I’ve always suspected that it might be her food at least contributing to her problem and recently switched her to Blue Buffalo Senior. I’ve just found your wonderful site and realized that she DOES need more protein even though she’s older. DUH! So do I!! She’s not really a fan of it and she’s sick again, anyway. Vet gave me samples of Hills Adult t/d. Very large kibble to use as treats for tartar control. But now unsure of the quality!
Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I do live on a limited income so all fresh food may be hard to do, but some (like raw chicken wings?) may be possible.
I thank you in advance — Colleen

[FreeholdHound]

I just placed my 1st order with Hare Today. What a great selection they have. My plan is to feed a raw/kibble diet so I ordered the beef/tripe/organ/bone mix, some frozen turkey necks, and the ground sardines. I don’t have a separate freezer but I do have 2 refrigerator/freezers (don’t ask lol) so I can’t go nuts. Hopefully this is a good start 🙂