[pitlove]

HI MJ E-

Geez, sounds very similar to what my bully mix goes through. His tends to be localized to his underside though. We’ve come to realize that most of the skin allergies we see with him are a reaction to something in his environment. Maybe the same is true for your dog?

Have you tried eliminating certain items from his inside environment? Like bedding, blankets, things like that that he lays on that could cause some type of contact allergy? A lady I knew found out her dog was allergic to the wool blanket he’d been sleeping on for years. Also washing the dogs bedding in something like All Free Clear instead of something with dyes and fragrances.

However, if hes reacting to something in his environment, but its outside thats a bit harder to manage. Bathing once a week in a medicated shampoo such as https://www.chewy.com/malaseb-medicated-shampoo-dogs-cats-8/dp/119232 or https://www.chewy.com/miconahextriz-shampoo-dogs-cats-16-oz/dp/114184 has really helped our dog. I notice a difference with him when I don’t bathe him regularly, especially in the summer time.

As far as the doctors and testing goes, it definitely does seem like you’ve made a grand effort to get him a diagnosis. Doctors aren’t perfect and sometimes tests aren’t either. However, it does sound like someone at some point lead you astray when they offered you a test for food allergies. I’m assuming (but correct me if I’m wrong) that it was a blood test. Blood tests are by and large infamous for false positives and false negatives and are generally not recognized as a true diagnostic test for food allergies.

While his symptoms don’t sound food allergy related, it doesn’t hurt to rule it out. Since we’ve just started summer in the US, I would get with a regular vet and discuss a food trial. This is the golden standard for ruling in or ruling out food allergies. There are a couple different approaches you can take to what food you choose for a food trial but the end principle is the same. They must eat that food and that food only for the 3 months they are doing the food trial. No treats, no flavored meds, no table food, no nothing. As far as what food you use goes, you can choose to do a homecooked diet of one novel protein and one novel carb for 3 months or you can use a diet from the vet like Royal Canin Ultamino. With Ultamino, the protein source for the food is amino acids that have been extracted from feathers. The proteins molecular weight in daltons is so low (under 1000) that the body’s immune response doesn’t trigger because the molecules are not a threat. Royal Canin actually borrowed this science from human medicine involving babies with allergies to milk.

If after 3 months (and you’ve done the trial correctly) there is no improvement in his symptoms, the idea is that you can effectively say food allergies are not at play. After that you may want to go back to the derm specialist and try the therapy that anon101 suggested. They will basically inject various common/regional allergens under your dogs subcutaneous layer of skin (think of a TB test in humans) and measure the reaction your dog has to each. They will then cocktail together a “vaccine” that you give your dog as a method of desensitizing him to those allergens. It will likely be a lifelong treatment and can cost (at least what I was quoted from LSU vet school) around 200$ for a 6 month supply of the vaccine for your dog. However, results for most pets are usually very good with this course of treatment. It may also be safer and more cost effective depending on the size of your dog than say a drug like Apoquel or an allergy injection like Cytopoint which isn’t guarenteed to work on all pets.

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

Guess you just didn’t look deep enough if you only found one controversial study reporting salivary amylase in the dog. But as I said really I find it immaterial. Dogs don’t retain food in their mouths for long periods of time there would be no selective pressure to maintain it. It just seems silly to me that people trot out the dogs don’t have salivary amylase as a line in the sand type of thing as some studies report dogs have it and not all omnivores do.

In regards to New World monkeys, who do not make salivary amylase, in the herbivore, omnivore, carnivore scheme they are classified as omnivores. It could be said that frugivore is a type of omnivore which is how wkipedia defines it “A frugivore /fruːdʒɪvɔːr/ is a fruit eater. It can be any type of herbivore or omnivore where fruit is a preferred food type.”

But if you want to separate out the different feeding patterns than this descriptions should suit you better. This taken from an overview of the group “Diets also vary widely; some species are nearly completely folivorous (eating a diet of leaves), some are frugivores, and some are omnivores” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232186/

Overfeeding any macronutrient leads to obesity.

Unfortunately your understanding of the pathophysiology of pancreatitis is incorrect. You wrote “excessive amylase destroys tissue in the pancreas.” Amylase breaks down bonds in starch.. starch is only found in plants. Amylase can not destroy the pancreas because the pancreas is not made of starch.

Dogs don’t become deconditioned via diet. High fat diets support stamina because the cells are filled with fat, the fuel is readily available. If you are going for intensity (anaerobic)that is where carb comes in. Sled dogs, endurance, low intensity exercise do best with high fat diets. Sprinters.. do best with a diet that contains a fairly significant amount of carb.

The activities that most people do with their dogs don’t fall into either extreme, racing greyhound vs endurance sled dog, and a balance of carb and fat is probably best. Dogs are very flexible in their requirements.

P.S. Tooth crowns will be cleaner with chewing activity but oral health(periodontal disease) was found not to be different between dogs and cats eating a natural diet vs a commercial food

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

I thought we should look at some of the statements you made

You wrote: “Dogs were not shaped by evolution to consume carbohydrates. That’s a fact.”

Actually no… it is not a fact. this is why dogs are classified as omnivores. Now I know you’ll disagree with that fact. So let’s consult an entity which you trust .. the NRC. you wrote “…National Research Council of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” pg 6 Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats NRC ” Cats originate from a family comprised only of strict carnivores (Felidae), whereas dogs are omnivorous.”

Dogs are absolutely set up to consume carbohydrate. They have sweet receptors in their tongues. Hypercarnivores lack sweet receptors. There is no evolutionary pressure as hyper carnivores are not selecting and eating plant material. On the other hand sweet receptors are very functional and advantage to plant eaters. Sweet plant are generally safe to eat.

Next you wrote “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates) all omnivores possess.”

Three parts to this statement “Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase” But yet if you follow the literature salivary amylase is reported in the dog. And like humans the degree found is variable. So either the papers reporting it are wrong or the papers that report it doesn’t exist are wrong or maybe they are both right and depends on who you sample and how you sample. Really though it would be of little benefit as dogs don’t keep food in their mouths a long time before swallowing so it is rather immaterial if they have it or not

Part 2 “(the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates).. Amylase is only important for starch digestion. Simple sugars are handled differently.

Part 3 “all omnivores possess. Where did you get this information from? Certainly not the scientific literature. Some omnivores have salivary amylase and some do not. Monkeys are omnivores. Old world monkeys have salivary amylase, New World Monkeys do not.

You wrote “Dogs, in a trait that is unevenly distributed in the population, have acquired a capacity to produce amylase in their pancreas.” Goodness you make it sound like dog’s can barely squeak out a bit of amylase. They can easily make gobs of amylase. My past dog lost ~ 90 % of her pancreas and yet had no problems with digesting a high starch diet.

You wrote “But producing pancreatic amylase is not the optimal or normal condition for dogs and –as mentioned–the capacity is highly variable.” Where do you get this “not optimal or normal” from? Please cite peer reviewed sources.

You wrote ” To take a marginal capacity (that is a dog’s ability to produce enough pancreatic amylase) a push it to the maximum by feeding dogs highly unnatural carbohydrate-rich cereal-based diets puts tremendous strain on that organ. It is an assault on the pancreas. It sets up a dog to be sick. Often the precipitating event that leads to pancreatitis is the consumption (by a sickened dog) of a high-fat meal that it is unaccustomed to eating. This happens because the pancreas becomes conditioned to spilling the “wrong” digestive enzymes to metabolize fat and in the confusion, those “wrong” enzymes instead attack the tissues of the pancreas causing damage…..etc

That simply is a fantasmical story conjured up by people with an agenda. Cite some peer reviewed papers that support this.. The pancreas has tremendous capacity for enzyme production and makes no sense to say that making lipase is a walk in the park but making amylase is “stressful” What would the mechanism be?

Enzymes become confused?? Really?? Enzymes are very specific in what they can do.

The rest of your “pancreas” story is more of the same..

Let’s revisit your recognized authority on canine nutrition the NRC .. again you wrote “The NRC is the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” If carbohydrates are as awful for dog as you claim they are certainly that information would be published by the “world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition”. Yet it is no where to be found
in the 30 + odd pages on the digestibility and use of carbohydrates in the 2006 edition of Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. There is no safe upper limit imposed by NRC on the incorporation of carbohydrate in canine diets ..but there is for fat

Maybe a clue can be found in looking at their recommended levels for fat. Does the NRC recommend high fat levels for dogs? Actually no they do not. The NRC recommended amount of fat for an adult dog at maintenance ( as opposed to reproduction or growth) is 13.8 grams/1000kcals. Assuming 8.5 kcals/gram that is 117 kcals from fat for every 1000 kcals fed or 11.7% fat calories, far below what you recommend.

Recommended amount of protein is 25 grams/1000 kcals, 3.5 X 25 =87.5grams/1000kcals or 8.7% protein calories. 11.7% recommended fat calories +8.7% protein calories =20.4% That leave a lot of room for a lot of carbohydrate : )

Dogs are very flexible.

As you recognize the NRC as “the world’s recognized leading authority on canine nutrition.” and I don’t disagree with you there, I’d advise you to pick up a copy of “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats” and read it!

[Patricia A]

Thank you again Spy. I feel like crying just thinking about starting over with new food . I have been cutting the kibble little by little . If I continue to feed a little kibble with their food I will research just a switch to a VERY low carb/high protein and average fat since they get enough fat from the raw. Let you know if I start to see any results. She also have a vet appt coming up and will ask about blood work for any thyroid issue.

[Spy Car]

@Patricia thanks for the links. I took a quick look and am not really well acquainted with these products (as I feed PRM style).

It is hard for me to tell how much of the dog’s diet comes from each and what comes from toppers and other such items. All told, it seems like the aggregate would be fairly low carb, especially when compared to a standard kibble.

The kibble is pretty low fat, but the freeze-dried Stellas and the Primal help compensate.

I prefer “no carb” but also don’t believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good.

At this point, I’d advise cutting down the rations slightly, especially the kibble (perhaps eliminating it entirely?), and seeing how that goes.

As I mentioned previously, palpate your dog’s ribs to get a good impression of how much of a fat layer is there and work on reducing it over time.

Sounds like you still need to cut overall calories and I’d try to make the reduced calories come from reduced carbohydrates. See how your dog’s vitality and desire to walk responds to the diet changes.

Bill

[Patricia A]

Thank you Spy for replying. Originally they were all eating Fromm grain free with a topper of health extension Vets Choice Chicken. Also toppers when I cooked of boiled chicken, salmon and steak if they were lucky that day. Its was a long winter and walks were very limited. Also when my three year old Chi put her nose up at the Fromm and topper Tia would steal before I had a chance to grab it from her. Hence the weight gain. My 16 year old is still her old food which at her age she’s been doing VERY well with. Of course she gets EXTRA chicken etc when others not looking at this point in her life. I finally gradually switched to the Stella’s kibble but really it’s a VERY small amount of her diet. Also cut down to tiny bit of the steak, salmon etc when we ate that because I think I was over doing the amount. So between the walks, treats cut out and her food being cut down I thought by now she would show a trimmer body type. So now you said Stella kibble is high in carbs. Even though it says low. I think her other food was average carbs so I thought I was doing better with that. Below is the list of foods I’ve been giving so far with the freeze dried. It’s ahttps://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058lways dehydrated with warm water. Thank you for your help. https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/freeze-dried-raw-dinners/patties/venison-blend https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-turkey-sardine-formula#variant=36371519122https://primalpetfoods.com/products/raw-freeze-dried-canine-duck-formula#variant=35868839058
Is this kibble recipe lower in carbs? https://www.stellaandchewys.com/dog-food/raw-coated-kibble/beef-recipe

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@Patricia, the good news is that you are seeing higher vitality (longer walks). That’s good.

Could you list or link to the specific foods you are serving?

The Stella kibble I’m seeing is only 14% fat. Despite being 36% protein (which is good), that means a lot of the calories are still coming from carbohydrates, which will disrupt fat-metabolism and slow weight loss.

One also has to account for the higher calories in nutritionally dense food and adjust accordingly. Feed by condition and not by formula. Too many calories are still too many calories even if they come from optimal food sources.

And the Stellas kibble I see is not optimal.

Best, Bill

[Patricia A]

Spy car I’m sorry to hijack these posts to help Ryan but you are the only i’ve read addressing fat benefits in dogs diet. I’ve posted several times about my concerns regarding my transition to Stella Chewy’s and Primal freeze dried with no replies. I have a should be 5lb chihuahua who is over weight. Switched about 6 months ago from Fromm grain free with canned topper. I’m not seeing any weight lose even though her walks have increased significantly. I’ve read that a 5lb dog should be getting between 80 and 120 calories a day. She gets Stella Chewy’s kibble of just 1/8 cup with less than 1 Patty or nugget a day. Morning my husband makes hard boiled egg and it is divided between my other two Chis’ of 16 year old and 3 years old . So she’s getting about 110 a day. I eliminated any treats and also totally stopped her food stealing from the other dogs. She SHOULD have lost but I still see a fat layer over her shoulder blades. You wrote about carbs causing weight gain. Stella and Primal says low carbs.I’ve read on small breed forums that their dogs actually LOST weight on the same foods I’m giving her. I love giving them the different flavors of rabbit, venison and primal’s Turkey/Sardine. It’s convenient but mostly I feel so good about feeding them something better then canned or kibble. I’m at a loose what to do. She’ll be eight and want to get her trim.
Also Ryan I feel so bad for you. You’re trying so hard and I know my sleepless nights regarding worrying about your pet. I agree with the strickly boiled chicken n rice until her stomach is better. Then GRADUALLY adding anything but Science Diet. Like you said I think also the allergies are going to have to take a back seat to her stomach at this point.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, they did not measure a high-fat ration vs a high-carb ration.

They measured two high carb rations (both of which lack the benefits of a high-protein/high-fat-diet) against each other and found a very marginal difference in weight loss. Differences likely attributable to the drastic differences in fiber in the two meals.

This study doesn’t resolve anything.

The reason that people like myself who’ve read the literature don’t endorse carbohydrates in the diet is due to the demonstrated consequences of high-carb diets negatively impacting aerobic capacity and cutting endurance in dogs, in addition to the obesity, bad skin, bad teeth, and stresses on GI tract and organ health.

There are no advantages to feeding carbs (aside from reducing costs of the feed). Only downsides to health.

I’m not going to take seriously a study that allows domestic dogs to consume as much raw food as they want as satiety test. LOL. There is enough of the primitive canine mind resident in dogs that I’d be shocked if a dog didn’t gorge when given the opportunity to eat raw meat, fat, organs, and bone. LOL.

But a raw-fed dog given calorically appropriate meals will not act food crazed. Ask me how I know?

Such dogs will be lean, vital, and hard-muscled vs the de-condition that results directly from feeding a high-carb cereal-based diet.

I’ve seen the differences with my own eyes. No comparison.

Thank you for your interest.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@Ryan, your dog is likely sedentary as a direct result of being fed a high-carb ration.

That is to say, high carb diets directly reduce stamina and vitality. Such dogs will show very poor aerobic capacity when tested on treadmills and their VO2 Max scores are tested. The food actually de-conditions the dogs.

A study was done on such dogs. Overweight couch potato types who were fed high-carb diets. The VO2 max scores were terrible. The same dogs were shifted to a high-protein/high-fat diet. When re-tested after a time on this diet (with no other changes in lifestyle) the VO2 Max score soared to nearly the same levels as highly conditioned dogs, based on that dietary change alone.

The reason is that dogs have an amazingly efficient capacity to metabolize fat for sustained energy. It is the food they thrive on. In contrast, a dog fed a high-carb diet will have a brief period of energy and then a bust where it crashes and sleeps.

Sadly, I think too many dog owners like the effect of “tranquilizing” their dogs through bad diets, sorry to say. Those de-conditioning diets lead to ill health on a variety of levels.

Dogs with stamina and vitality have those things in direct relationship with their diets. The increased metabolic activity helps keep such dogs trim and well-muscled.

I’m very happy to hear about the good test results! Definitely work with the vet to ensure there is no contraindicating condition for moving to a higher fat diet (like emerging pancreatitis), but overall it is a much healthier option for dogs.

Your dog certainly can (and should) eat like a sled dog, it just requires much less food. You’d see a big increase in vitality and health.

When dogs are fed junk food all the consequences, from obesity, to bad lipid profiles, to bad skin, bad teeth, to stressed organs, follows.

proper nutrition is not for sled dogs and sporting dogs alone. The falsehood that is is is one of the most damaging untruths in canine nutrition (or should we say malnutrition) and is the reason so many dogs suffer needlessly from ill health.

Again, congrats on the good test results!

Bill

[Spy Car]

@aimee, labeling the obvious as “propaganda” and horse manure is….

Dogs were not shaped by evolution to consume carbohydrates. That’s a fact.

Dogs have no capacity to produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to digest starches/sugars/carbohydrates) all omnivores possess. When omnivores chew plant matter those salivary enzymes start working to digest the food.

This doesn’t/can’t happen with dogs, as they lack the capacity.

Dogs, in a trait that is unevenly distributed in the population, have acquired a capacity to produce amylase in their pancreas. This aided them, as opposed to their wolf species-mates (who have less capacity) in surviving as opportunistic carnivores in a relationship with humans.

But producing pancreatic amylase is not the optimal or normal condition for dogs and –as mentioned–the capacity is highly variable.

To take a marginal capacity (that is a dog’s ability to produce enough pancreatic amylase) a push it to the maximum by feeding dogs highly unnatural carbohydrate-rich cereal-based diets puts tremendous strain on that organ. It is an assault on the pancreas. It sets up a dog to be sick.

Often the precipitating event that leads to pancreatitis is the consumption (by a sickened dog) of a high-fat meal that it is unaccustomed to eating. This happens because the pancreas becomes conditioned to spilling the “wrong” digestive enzymes to metabolize fat and in the confusion, those “wrong” enzymes instead attack the tissues of the pancreas causing damage.

Fat gets “blamed” for pancreatitis and the stressed and ill effects of a high-carb diet in sickening the pancreas is ignored. Dogs who eat a high-fat diet as a matter of course (and as intended my nature) do not work their pancreases overtime. Nor do they confuse the pancreas with which digestive enzymes to release. As a result, pancreatitis is very rare among those dogs and not-at-all uncommon in dogs fed high-carb kibble diets.

The pancreas has two functions.

One is to release digestive enzymes, and high-carb diets clearly undermine pancreatic health through a demand for excessive levels of pancreatic enzymes and causing a predisposition for pancreatitis.

The other is to regulate blood sugars. Again, an unnatural high-carb causes wild swings in a bogs blood sugar levels. Boom and bust. The pancreas has to work overtime in an attempt to control for a diet that isn’t species appropriate. This also takes a toll on pancreatic health.

Such a diet sets up a dog for pancreatic problems.

In contrast, fat metabolism keeps a dog’s blood sugars extremely even. They produce steady glucose supplies easily and on demand in a slow and steady fashion that places no strain on the pancreas. This promotes good pancreatic health.

So with both pancreatic functions, the “endocrine function” that regulates blood sugars) and the “exocrine function” (that produces digestive enzymes) fat metabolism works with nature to promote pancreatic health and high vitality.

In contrast, a high-carb diet taxes the pancreas by requiring it to produce excessive (and wholly unnatural) amounts of pancreatic amylase due to feeding a modern processed cereal-based food. Then the stress on the pancreas is compounded on the exocrine by the wild ride of trying to control blood sugars.

Those assaults on pancreatic health set up high-carb eating dogs to be sick. Not “propaganda,” but an honest evaluation of dog physiology. The junk-food diet is at the root of the problem. That’s what happens when species inappropriate food is marketed for dogs.

Bill

[aimee]

Spycar,

I call horse manure on this “The same unhealthful high carb diets can stress the pancreas (by causing an unnatural demand on pancreatic amylase) and that can be a factor in dog’s developing pancreatitis.”

Not a single shred of of evidence for this. Propaganda! I expect better from you!

Ryan,
I’m glad she made it too.. She dies many years ago at the age of nearly 14. She always had a high glucose after that incident, but not so high as to need insulin. A large part of her pancreas was destroyed. She lived out her life on a high carb low fat diet and didn’t have any more troubles.

[aimee]

Spycar

All studies are flawed and this is no exception . There wasn’t a significant difference in amount of weight lost .. controlling calories is still key… but the authors did report a significant difference in % fat lost. ” the low fat diet group lost a significantly greater amount of total body fat than the high fat group.” This outcome is not consistent with your beliefs.

I don’t disagree that people and dogs have different requirements. It is just that people like to drag out the “Dog’s don’t require carbs” mantra as if that is somehow proof that carbohydrate shouldn’t be fed to dogs…Just pointing out the argument falls apart as people don’t need them either.

Maybe you’ll like this one better comparing ad lib access to either high fat or high carb diet full text may tell more but the high fat didn’t satiate the dogs to the point that they didn’t overeat and gain weight

Adult female dogs were fed ad libitum for 25 weeks a high-fat diet (51% of energy from fat) or a high-carbohydrate diet (59% of energy from carbohydrate). Dogs fed the high-fat diet gained more body weight than did dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet. In both groups of dogs 78-80% of the increase in body weight was fat. The high-fat diet may have been utilized more efficiently for body fat gain than the high-carbohydrate diet; alternatively, it is possible to explain the increased body fat accumulation in dogs fed the high-fat diet on the basis of the small observed difference in energy intake. Dogs fed the high-fat diet consumed slightly more energy (13%) which resulted in the accumulation of more than twice the amount of fat accumulated in dogs fed the high-carbohydrate diet during the 25 week study.

Have you read Schauf’s studies on satiety comparing high fat to high carb? No difference found

Oh my…. you certainly haven’t seen the same high fat raw fed dogs as I have “A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle.” Do you have any references to support that statement?

I’m pretty carb neutral neither for or against. For weight loss I like to see a high percent of calories coming from protein and lower fat levels to allow for the dog to be able to eat a decent volume of food and for owner satiety and the carbs fall where they may.

In general i’m not a fan of high fat diets I see way too much canine obesity as owners don’t control portions, so I’m all for a less energy dense diets.

.

[Ryan K]

Wow, Aimee I’m glad your dog is doing better. That had to be very scary. 🙁

Bill…I did have his triglyceride level tested the following day after fasting him. The level was 90 which they said was normal. I think the Precision PSL test is the one for pancreas health? That one came up 107 which is in normal range. The only red marker was on his cholesterol which was 327 which is high by a couple points. My vet said it seems ok since all his other values were good. I am truly stumped. Aimee’s points are concerning to me if this truly is something that could crash his system from too much fat but I also agree that a dog is naturally better off with higher protein and less carbs. I just need to figure out what this dog truly needs for his specific condition. I bookmarked that Victor food. I have seen it on Chewy before and wanted to look into it. Is that a bad choice though for a dog like mine who is fairly sedentary? Someone once told me not to go too high with protein and fat if the dog was lazy…which mine tends to be. I might call my vet to see what she thinks about these diet suggestions. I want to figure this out so I can move on and have my old dog acting like himself again. Thanks you guys!!!

[Spy Car]

Ryan, I appreciate the spot you are in getting diametrically opposed advice.

In the years I’ve fed a PMR style raw diet I’ve come to be able to spot raw fed dogs when I see them. It has happened a good number of times when I met “strange dogs,” and usually getting the “how did you know…well, of course, you know” type responses.

And I’ve been on the other side, where strangers have approached me and known immediately that my dog is raw fed.

You can tell when a dog doesn’t eat carbs. Every part of their condition from the skin, fur, teeth, breath and especially lean muscle mass with low body fat is vastly better. They stand out markedly from the condition of kibble-fed dogs.

Second-best is feeding a kibbled ration that reduces carbs as much as possible.

Here is a link to the type of formula I’d like to see.

https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/grain-free-ultra-pro/?portfolioCats=133%2C134%2C165%2C135%2C153%2C159%2C160

Disclaimer, I’ve never fed this food (as I feed raw) and I have no relationship with Victor’s. It is just an example of a reasonably inexpensive alternative called Victor Ultra Pro. It is a 42% protein/22% fat formula that they claim is 81% animal protein and has 14% carbs. Hard to do better than that with a kibbled diet.

It is nutrient dense (high calorie) at 479kcal/cup, so you’d probably need to feed about 2/3 the portion of a less dense food (depending). Maybe less. That also figures in cost. The volume of poop would also be cut significantly. Not just nice for you, but much kinder for a dog (especially one with issues) not to move extraordinary amounts of waste through their GI tract.

Since the fat provides a sustained energy supply, you could feed once a day (at days end) and your dog could then go to sleep instead of carrying around a belly full of food (which is actually really hard on dogs, especially breeds like yours with his conditions).

The fat in this sort of food would keep him satisfied (w/o the need for obscene amounts of fiber) and would supply steady energy.

I’d expect triglycerides to improve on the small chance the problem is diet related.

I would definitely ask for a thyroid panel to be run at the vet. I’m a little surprised they have not done so already.

I’d resist the low-fat/high-fiber-diet. I think your dog would suffer from such diet. It is no wonder he doesn’t like it. No diet could be more unnatural for a canine to eat. I’ve seen too many dogs on this misguided sort of diet, they never fare well. It is about the worst diet one could feed a dog in terms of nutrition.

I’m sorry you are getting contradictory advice. But there is no question which way I’d go based on the nutritional needs of dogs described in the veterinary science.

Best,

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@ aimee, dogs are not people. We have evolved with very different nutritional needs.

Human beings have salivary amylase, for example, the digestive enzyme necessary to convert starches. Dog’s lack salivary amylase.

it is a common problem that pet owners anthropomorphize their dogs and (wrongly) believe they have the same nutritional requirements and same metabolism we do, but that runs against evidence-based science.

Fat is an essential nutrient for dogs, as is protein. Carbohydrates are nonessential. Completely unnecessary in a canine diet. Their needs are not the same as those of humans.

Your accusations of ignoring the veterinary literature are false. Satiety studies involving low-fat rations require loading rations with fiber, which is hellish for dogs. Moving that much waste (and creating that much poop) is very hard on dogs vs the efficiency of metabolizing much smaller quantities of fat and protein.

I think you are confusing healthful salads and greens that are great for people with what’s good for dogs. And that ain’t a high carb diet. Nothing could be a less appropriate choice for good canine health.

Carbs are in modern processed dog food to make food inexpensive. That comes at a cost to dog’s health. A dog fed a balanced raw diet will have a dramatically better condition, less body fat and more muscle. A high protein/high-fat diet that reduces carbs as much as possible is a distant second choice, but miles ahead of an unhealthful fiber and cereal-based “low-fat” diet.

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, presuming by “Borne’s paper on weight loss” you mean: Differential metabolic effects of energy restriction in dogs using diets varying in fat and fiber content by AT Bourne?

If so this is a supremely flawed study (for reasons I’ll get into below) using only 6 dogs in each cohort and it concludes by saying the differences in weight loss “did not reach statistical significance.” LOL.
If this is the best argument for a high carb diet for weight loss it is entirely unconvincing in the first place.

But let’s delve further. Borne didn’t actually compare a high carb diet with a high-fat diet. The so-called “high-fat” diet only had 32% of calories from fat. Way below the optimal 50-60% of calories from fat that I mentioned in an earlier post as optimal.

Instead, we have two low-fat formulas, one at 35.4% of calories from fat and the other at 24.5% of calories from fat. So both high carb rations. Then they added massive amounts of fiber to the lower-fat formula as a way to stuff the dog with fillers it would need to process and excrete as waste (imagine the about of poop!) vs low fiber in the less-high carb meal. They did this to trick dogs into feeling satisfied when they were actually deprived of essential nutrients.

In a “real diet,” (neither of these qualifies as such) a dog feels full when it consumes fat. There isn’t a need to overstuff the dogs with fillers and fiber.

The Borne study tried to game the outcome by having two variables going, different fat/carb ratios and also very different fiber ratios. Notan even playing field, and still the results “did not reach statistical significance.”

It certainly did not prove the contention that a high-carb diet is superior to a more natural high-protein/high-fat diet for maintaining an optimal weight and lean muscle mass in dogs.

I’d pity the dogs fed the higher-carb high fiber ration long term. A most uncomfortable, GI tract irritating, poop generating, vitality and stamina eliminating diet.

Egads!

Bill

[Spy Car]

Again, about the worst thing one can do for a dog experiencing abdominal pain is to stuff it with low-calorie high-fiber foods.

When a dog is fed a low-fat diet the difficulty is that the dog will not experience the kind of satiety that have when they are fed the essential fats they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. So such dogs always feel hungry and act hungry. In response, pet food companies add massive amounts of fiber to such formulas, often in the neighborhood of 28% fiber. The poor dogs fed such a ration have to carry and move all this excessive fiber through their systems, producing massive amounts of stool in the process. It is both uncomfortable, irritating to the GI tract, and is extra weight to carry in their bellies.

It is unkind, in the extreme, to have a dog with hip or disk issues (and digestive issue) to place such an extreme tax on its digestive track in my estimation.

And for what purpose? To deny it the fuel it actually needs for optimal energy delivery and good health so it can be (poorly) substituted with not essential calories from carbohydrates.

The less food, by mass, that a dog in such a condition needs to move the better. Think about it.

The higher fat ration provides the nutrients a dog actually needs and reduces the need to add fillers that are hard to process. All that extra poop (and it will be dramatically more) is evidence of what a dog needs to process to manage such an unnatural and unhealthful diet.

Ryan, try to find a formula with over 20% fat. The high-carb/low-fat road really isn’t a good one. I really isn’t species appropriate. The amount of fiber is an assault on the digestive track designed to make the dog feel “full.”

Instead, much smaller amounts of high protein/high-fat foods would serve your dog much (much) better.

Ryan, I realize you are getting diametrically opposed advice. I’d ask yourself what makes sense? What did nature shape dogs to optimally consume? Was it heavily processed cereal loaded with extra fiber to fool a dog into thinking it was getting the fuel it needs? Or actually giving dogs a proper portion of what they thrive on?

Think about it.

If triglycerides are high, the likeliest culprit is hypothyroidism. Has your vet ruled that out?

If this is related to diet it is far (far) more likely that it is related to high-carbs than fat.

Best,

Bill

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Spy Car.

[aimee]

Hi Ryan,

Triglycerides over 2000 yikes! I have some experience with this problem. When triglycerides are this high they can result in a variety of problems. Intestinal discomfort, vomiting, diarrhea, behavior abnormalities, seizures and pancreatitis have all been reported. This is serious stuff! It makes me wonder if the intermittent pain your dog is having is in any way related to abdominal discomfort from high triglycerides.

From what I gather you temporally put your dog on a chicken and rice diet and then the triglycerides were normal. So the good news is that it appears diet responsive. Chicken breast and rice is a low fat diet if that is what you were feeding. To know how much you need to feed you’d feed an equivalent calories to the former diet. Rice is ~200 kcal /cup for steamed white rice and chicken breast is about 120 kcals for 100 grams

What you absolutely do not want to do is follow the well meaning but misguided recommendation from spycar to feed a high fat diet (20% was rec,) low carb diet! This would be a recipe for disaster ..literally.

If a secondary cause (for example hormonal problems) is found and treated than feeding a low fat diet may not be needed. But feeding a low fat diet is the foundation of treatment of primary hypertriglyceridemia.
It looks like your vet is on top of this by recommending a low fat diet. If your dog doesn’t like the first commercial low fat ask for a different one. You’ll need a diet significantly lower in fat than the one your dog was on when the high level was found. Work with your vet.. this is a serious problem!

Some dogs can use commercial diets usually low fat vet diets but others need to work with a nutritionist for ultra low fat diet. Balance it dot com has some semi customized recipes if you need to go that route.

[Spy Car]

@aimee, there is no such thing as “nonessential fats.” Using the term in this fashion is scientifically incorrect. The fact is any level of carbohydrates in a canine diet is what is nonessential. Dogs do not require ANY carbohydrates in their diets to thrive. And the calories are better derived from essential fat and protein sources.

Optimal calories from fat are about 50-60% of calories (remembering fat has 2.25 times as many calories per gram as either protein or carbohydrates.

Replacing too many calories from protein with carbs leads to muscle tears and inadequate protein to build and repair muscle tissues and carbohydrate calories replacing fat reduces aerobic capacity and endurance, while promoting weight gain and tooth decay.

The reason pet food companies have so-called “weight loss” formulas built around high carb foods (besides the low-quality and low-cost carbs being a way to maximize profits) is that too many people don’t cut back on the amount of food when they feed higher-quality high-protein/high-fat alternatives. But stuffing a dog with a high carb diet is the path to obesity, It doesn’t work.

It is much better to serve smaller portions of high-calorie food. The fat in high-protein/high-fat meals satisfies a dogs hunger (and provides sustainable energy) where a dog fed high carb meals is always hungry and lacks the energy stores for sustained activity.

Trying to get a dog to lose weight on high carb rations is a recipe for failure. It doesn’t work.

Best to get rid of the nonessential calories from carbohydrates that are unnecessary in a canine diet. Just look at the body type of any PMR-style raw fed dog to see the drastic difference eating no carbohydrates makes in promoting a lean muscular body type.

The best thing one can do for a dog for a dog with disk or hip issues is to get it lean and strong. A high-protein/high-fat diet is the key to that end. High-carb diets cut vitality, crowd our essential nutrients, and lead to obesity and health issues.

Bill

[aimee]

Hi Spycar,

From your response it appears that you misinterpreted my intent. I didn’t say fats are non essential, I said to remove non essential fats. A certain amount of fat is essential to meet essential fatty acids and allow for fat soluble vitamin absorption. After meeting those needs the balance just serves as a calorie source and as such can be trimmed for weight loss.

Are you referring to Reynolds and Taylor’s work? If so seems you are misapplying it here.
As you reported much of the work on metabolism has been funded by pet food companies. A clue that the results of this work doesn’t support a recommendation of preferentially removing carbs and for weight loss is that the weight loss diets made by the companies doing the research are low fat.

Have you read Borne’s paper on weight loss? Keeping the percentage of calories from protein the same and altering the fat and carb content, the dogs on the higher carb, lower fat diet lost more weight and a greater percentage of body fat then those on the lower carb, higher fat diet.

[Patricia A]

I have been feeding my Chihuahuas Primal and Stella Chewy’s as a topper. The advisor listed both of these as his choices for his 2018 top choice food list and as being 5*. I was also looking into Vital Essentials and Wysong . Vital essentials has high protein low carbs but AVERAGE fat. Wysong freeze dried has actually BELOW average fat with the high protein and low carbs. Is there a strong benefit to having the above average fat in raw such as in the Primal and Stella’s.Why wouldn’t the raw commercial company strive for their product to be high protein average fat and low carbs. Wouldn’t MOST dogs do better being that some dogs are prone to pancreatitis . Also a good many dogs are overweight or are more sedentary during the winter months. So again..what IS the benefit of the higher fat since these foods have such a high ratings. Is it possible that the company is stating low fat when it’s not? Thank you . Hope I’m making sense with my questions.

• This topic was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.
• This topic was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

My pleasure Ryan. I’d still palpate your dog as described above and decide how much of a fat layer you are willing to accept. It really isn’t about “weight” per se, but how much body fat a dog is carrying. Muscle “weight” (to a point) is beneficial in taking strain off joints.

Body fat, in contrast, is just a tax on the hips. I prefer my dogs run very lean while being athletically hard-muscled. That preference would only grow in importance were a dog showing signs of hip dysplasia. I’d want to trim body fat to the minimum while supporting muscle mass.

In my humble opinion, a 32/14 formula would get you just over the minimum threshold of protein but would be very deficient in fat. Such a formula would still have too many calories from carbs for my taste. I’d like to see a minimum of 20% fat.

If you are the researching type go to Google Scholar and search the veterinary literature for high-protein/high-fat vs high-carb studies. There have been many with sled dogs, hunting dogs, racing greyhounds, and even couch potato dogs. All the studies come to the same conclusions. Dogs burn fat with amazing efficiency and it is sustainable energy. In contrast, carbs load the muscles with blood glycogen initially, but then the energy stores are depleted. This is a boom-and-bust cycle.

Carb burning also cuts aerobic capacity.

Humans are different. We metabolize carbs pretty well as a source of long-term energy. We also tend to think fat will make us fat. It tends to be the opposite with dogs. Obviously one needs to take care with portion control with high-calorie rations. But feeding less food (by mass) with a higher caloric content (ie higher fat) will provide sustained energy. Such a formula makes it much easier to promote a strong lean body type.

A 32/14 formula would still have too many calories from carbohydrates IMO. Read the research if you’re interested.

The one caution I’d make if you do decide to go to a high-protein/high-fat diet is to transition slowly. It is always recommended to transition foods, but often that’s being “cautious.” Transitioning towards fat burning is different than just switching between different brands of high-carbohydrate kibble. Many changes have to happen from the release of different digestive enzymes by the pancreas to changes in the mitochondria at a cellular level.

So go slowly if you do decide to follow this advice. Then keep palpating the dog and checking the tuck with the aim of hitting that optimal balance of leanness and muscle. It is the kindest thing one can do with a dog developing hip pain or hip dysplasia, save surgical interventions for dogs who require it.

I hope this is helpful to you. Best with your dog.

Bill

[Ryan K]

Thanks Bill! That is good to know. I didn’t even think of that. It makes perfect sense that they should have lower carbs since it’s not something they ate in the wild.

His weight seems good. That’s what the vets have told me. He seems to be fluctuating though from what I’m noticing. He’s going between 25-27 between these visits. Not sure if that is there scale or the dog. The vet always says his weight looks great though. He’s a smaller dog. I think weighed 24 back before he slipped the disc in his back though. As long as the vet says he looks healthy and not overweight i am content with that. I was looking at the higher protein foods. I might try the Natural Balance high protein lamb. He doesn’t react to Lamb negatively. It has 32% protein and 14% fat. Hopefully that is a good ratio. At this point, I literally just want him keeping down food and actually eating regularly and happily like he once did before I started messing with his foods to try to accommodate his skin allergies. If I can get healthy skin on top of a happy digestive system I will be thrilled. Thank you!

[Spy Car]

Hey Ryan,

The best way to feed is always “by condition” rather than any fixed about. That means reducing calories if the dog is too heavy and increasing if the dog is getting too lean. On the last point, Americans tend to have very skewed ideas about what’s a healthy weight for dogs. It is best for dogs to be lean.

The two best ways to assess “condition” are:

1) To palpate the ribs with an eye towards assessing the degree of fat layer over the ribs. Ideally, that fat layer is very slight. In an obese dog, there will be a thick fat layer. Either way, this is your standard of measure as you adjust diet. It gives you a “bechmark.”

2) The other useful measure is to observe the dog from overhead and see to what degree it has a “tuck” (waist). Obese dogs will have very little (or no) tuck. Again, the tuck becomes a secondary benchmark.

As to diet, feeding low-fat is the worst thing one can do to reduce weight, While it seems counter-intuitive, dogs naturally metabolize fats as their optimal energy source. It was what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on. Carbohydrates on the other hand cut stamina and lead to obesity.

If you can’t do a balance PMR style raw diet the best thing you could do is to slowly transition to a high protein/high fat (low carb) diet and to feed fewer overall calories while you slowly bring down the weight.

The worst move is to increase the carbohydrates (by cutting fats) because those carbs (along with overfeeding and diet-linked de-conditioning) are the culprits in promoting obesity.

Best,

Bill

[Susan]

Hi Ryan,
if your cooking Chicken & Rice start adding some veggies, broccoli, carrot etc & start balancing 1 of his meals a day or over the week add things that will balance his diet over 1 week, in Australia we have “NAS Digestiavite Plus Powder” I had to mix thru Patches cooked or raw meal was just 1/2 a teaspoon & it didnt smell of vitamins, it smelt nice like spinach & kale its green powder & has everything to balance a dogs diet…..
Take back the Hills 1/d dry kibble, I would of gotten him the wet Hills Digestive Care I/d Chicken, Vegetables & Rice wet can food, it smells really good, its balanced & formulated for a few health problems, sounds like your dog doesn’t like dry kibble, I wouldn’t flare up his Allergies, I’ve been feeding Patch Chicken since March, the Wellness Core Large Breed formula cause the fat is low/medium, protein % is med/high & carbs are low & Kcals are 345 per cup & Patch does well on it BUT now he has red paws, red around his mouth, he cant eat too much Chicken, the chicken agrees with his IBD/Stomach but not his skin… Have you tried “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato ? I buying a bag tomorrow, my cat even likes the Wellness kibbles but she wouldnt eat te TOTW kibble also teh Wellness is palabity money back guaranteed…you have to read thru all the Wellness formula’s ingredients for no lentils, the Natural Balance Potato & Duck or Sweet Potato & Fish doesnt have lentils or chickpeas or Probiotics…
Ive read that Probiotics die by the time we get the kibble or once exposed to heat?? I dont know if this is correct..

Tin Salmon & Sardines in Spring Water or Olive Oil will help balance his diet, Sardines are very healthy, Sardines have vitamins minerals, Omega 3 are very healthy, just read salt % & buy brand with the lowest salt %, add 2 spoons to 1 of his meals a day, also crush up 1 egg shell a day & add to 1 of his cooked meal for calcium…
I often buy tin salmon in spring water, for making sandwiched the smaller cans, I drain all the spring water & add a few pieces of boiled sweet potatoes, 1/2 salmon & 1/2 boiled sweet potato & mix & give only 1/2 for a meal & the other 1/2 the next day… dogs love fresh fish..
I’d look at “Judy Morgan DVM” face book page, look at her videos & “Pancreatitis Diet” her “IBD Diet” she has easy to make cooked balanced meals, you just put everything in a Slow Cooker, then freeze meals, probably healthier then feeding dry kibbles…
Your dog is smart & he can smell the off meat in the dry kibble or he can smell the vitamins & omega oils in the vet diets something is turning him off…

[Spy Car]

Keeping a Lab that’s experiencing hip pain or hip dysplasia at 140 lbs isn’t sustainable.

That means something needs to be done to gradually reduce the dog’s weight. The best way to accomplish the weight loss is to eliminate the portion of the diet that provides non-essential calories. Namely, carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are nor essential in a canine diet according to the Nation Reseach Council (which is the world’s recognized authority).

There is nothing “drastic” about feeding a dog the sort of diet it was shaped by evolution to consume. An unnatural carb-rich diet is literally crippling this dog.

A balanced PRM-style diet is the best thing one could do for this dog in portions designed to promote slow weight loss.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Hello Jan,

I strongly believe that raw feeding is the healthiest diet for dogs, but it is not a panacea.

The greatest benefit would be to reduce the weight of your lab. Reducing (or eliminating) carbohydrates via a raw diet (or mixed diet) helps. Dogs burn fat very efficiently and while it seems counter-intuitive, fat metabolism helps with weight loss.

The pork femur bones, sadly, are a poor choice, as a bone source. They are too hard to the “eaten” and therefore pose a hazard to teeth and risk obstructions id swallowed in large pieces. Bone-in chicken pieces are far preferable.

On a budget, you’d spend less if you find whole ingredients and feed according to the Prey Model 80/10/10 (meat/soft-edible bones/organs) formula.

Chicken feet are a good source of edible bone and do contain a lot of glucosamine. Couldn’t hurt. But weight loss is the critical issue.

Aim to slowly reduce weight. A raw diet promotes a lean body type. Getting rid of the carbs is key.

Best,

Bill

[Freckles F]

My baby, my little fighter was at the vet few days ago getting x-rays because he developed a limp from his front leg. It turns out that it’s osteosarcoma cancer (bone cancer) instead of dysplasia or tendinitis that I thought it might be. Dexter is only 7 years old. There is no real prognosis, and it appears to be progressing fast. We talked with the oncologist about the amputation followed by 4 chemo treatments… 1 week later, Dexter is now on three legs. I’ve heard about the low carb, starch free, ketogenic diet that is good for that kind of disease. Is anyone know a brand that fit my needs ?

Thanks a lot ! 💕🐾

[Susan]

Hi Ryan,
do you have the money to see a animal nutritionist? & get a balanced cooked diet, join a few Facebook groups “K-9Kitchen” run by Monica Segal, Monica does balanced diets for health problems….
there’s “K-9 Nutrition” group run by Lew Olson…
also “Judy Morgan DVM” look at her videos on her F/B page she has a few home made balanced easy to make meals…

When a dog is shaking its normally PAIN related, aso having diarrhea he probably was having intestinal pain could it have been Pancreas? did vet do blood test for Pancreatitis? also your dog might have IBD, my boy has IBD & he shakes when he has his stomach pain, I thought he was having Pancreatitis attacks cause he gets all the symptoms & he was shaking really bad, but blood test have always come back all good, no pancreatitis & the vet just says its his IBD, its stomach pain….
So I have excepted he doesnt have Pancreatitis & its his IBD causing him pain after he has eaten something it has caused him bad pain, he does lift one of his front paws & wants me to rub his stomach/pancres area when he gets this pain & shakes….
What was he eating when this was happening? was it a high fiber diet??
Dogs have a short Digestive Tract, so they do better eating low fiber or no fiber at all my vet told me, how are his poos since starting the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula, are his poos firm, cause the Hills I/d Digestive Care formula’s are lower in fiber ??
Try the Hills I/d low fat digestive care wet can food, I feed the Hills I/d Chicken,Vegetables & Rice wet can formula, it has less rice, No Fish Oil & has 14.9%-fat, I have to pick out all the boiled rice but Patch loves it for lunch & the cat gets all his rice & gravy she loves it.
Hills have improve their vet diets & brought out some really nice wet can stews…

Just ask your vet if you want to try a certain vet formula you think has OK ingredients & might agree with your boy.. I’d stick with the vet diets, they are balanced properly & made for certain health problems, some vet diets will help a few different health problems if you read “Key Benefits, look at
Hill’s® Prescription Diet® w/d® Canine Vegetable & Chicken Stew it’s for a few health problems, maybe talk with your vet about trying the Hills W/d formula??
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-wd-canine-vegetable-and-chicken-stew-canned#accordion-content-054167331-2

Have you tried “Natural Balance” LTD Potato & Duck formula the fat is low-10% & fiber-3%, but you have to remember when the protein% & fat % is lower the Carbs are higher this is when weight gain happens if they are couch potatoes & dont excercise daily, The Natural Balance limited ingredient formula’s have all different ingredients so make sure you look at the ingredient list…
I would be feeding 3 small meals a day, same time every day, I’d feed 1-2 meals cooked meal or vet diet wet can food & the other meal the dry kibble… I feed 4-5 meals a day but my dog weighs 40lbs
https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/special-category-limited-ingredient-diets

Here’s N/B Small Breed Potato & Duck, it has no probiotics
https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-lid-limited/dp/36763

There’s Hills Prescription Weight Loss vet diet?? Ive heard dogs have very good results with this HIlls weight loss vet diet formula, Hills have brought out their
Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Natural Canine
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-natural-canine-dry

There’s Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine formula its lower in carbs-36%, the fat is a bit higher-14.6% in fat, probably from from all the omega oils for joint health, https://www.hillspet.com.au/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-dry

*Metabolic + Mobility Canine has clinically proven nutrition to improve mobility in as little as 21 days AND reduce body weight by 13% in 60 days.

*Hill’s® Prescription Diet® Metabolic Canine Lamb Meal & Rice Formula
https://www.hillspet.com/dog-food/pd-metabolic-canine-lamb-meal-and-rice-formula-dry#accordion-content-054167331-2

There’s Hills Prescription Diet™ Metabolic Canine Vegetable & Beef Stew or
Hill’s™ Prescription Diet™ Metabolic + Mobility Canine Vegetable & Tuna Stew
ingredients look good & no cooking, no balancing cooked diet.
Here’s all Hills Weight Loss formula’s
https://www.hillspet.com/search?_BRAND=pd&_CONDITION=weightCondition&_SPECIES=dog

BUT 1 thing all of Hills Weight Loss formula’s are high in fiber, if your dog does OK with higher fiber & doesn’t get any pain or sloppy poos eating high fiber then try feeding the wet can foods, wet food is easier to digest then hard kibble….

I have found when a dog becomes picky with its food they normally have stomach problems & food has caused them pain so they become very fussy & when a certain food has caused them pain they will refuse to eat that food, so best to stop feeding whatever it is & read ingredients, read fiber %, the Kcals per cup??
Try & work out what is causing pain ….
Good-Luck

[Patricia A]

Hope that his blood levels come back normal. At least this way you’re just dealing with the allergie issues. I didn’t notice any probiotics in this food. Look under reviews to see all ingredients . It’s high protein/ low fat and carbs. Wellness Core Reduced Fat (Dry)> When I top my threes dog food I sort of just eyeball it. I don’t want them to just get full on the chicken and not eat their other food. with your size dog maybe 1/4 chunk of a breast. Good luck again.

[emmygirl01]

Hi, last post for this topic was 2016, so I was wondering if anyone has had a dog diagnosed with this recently.
My pup, Murphy recently got this diagnosis after 5 months of diarrhea. I have posted prior to this concerning his diarrhea, and thanks to all of you who gave your input.
I am working with my vet and following her advice.
He is currently on budesonide, B-12 shots weekly. I feel like this has been successful, but now with new blood work, the vet wants me to put him back on prednisone and add plavix, as she reports that dogs with this diagnosis can get blood clots—
She wants me to do balanceit–which is a wonderful company, wonderful product, but you have to cook massive amounts of protein and add it to their vitamins. It’s a big commitment, and not that I am not up to the challenge, but realistically, I would like a back up plan for a food that he could tolerate and would be low in fat, fiber, etc. If you have had success with such a brand, please share. He can not eat beef, salmon, rice, peas, lentils, garbanzos–he hates pork. I think my vet is working on a recipe with balanceit which would be turkey and a carb of some kind and then the balanceit vitamins. Due to his food problems, there are limited canned or dry foods that he can tolerate–so maybe balanceit is the best choice?? And I will just have to figure out a way to cook copious amounts of meat!
Thanks in advance.

[pitlove]

Hi BaileysMom-

It seems like each time you notice his symptoms come back you attempt to resolve them by throwing a lot at him all at once. Sometimes this is counterproductive because you can’t be sure what is working and what isn’t. I made the same mistake with the dog in my avatar who has allergies and yeast.

What we did that worked for us was an elimination diet. We used Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Protein, fed that food and only that food for 3 months during winter time. We noticed that his symptoms went away. Now elimination diets are tricky because they can not have any treats, any flavored meds, any dental treats, table scrapes, nothing, but that prescription diet. If your dog gets ahold of anything other than that food you must restart the trial.

Now as far as his seasonal allergies go, we’ve been trying to manage them with medicated baths either with https://www.chewy.com/malaseb-medicated-shampoo-dogs-cats-8/dp/119232 or https://www.chewy.com/miconahextriz-shampoo-dogs-cats-16-oz/dp/114184 if Chewy.com is out of stock of Malaseb. I try to bath him once a week and soak his feet frequently (though I admit I slack on it). We also just the other day got him the Cytopoint shot as well. It works…unless he goes outside and comes back in. Then he still licks. The problem with Cytopoint is that it is not guarenteed to work for every dog. It also isn’t guarenteed to last for a specific amount of time. Also just as a note, Apoquel is not a steroid, though it can have some long term side effects. IMO it would be worth trying even for a few months to see if it helps at all. I think that is the next step for us with our allergy dog.

For us, we’ve come to find out that as long as we do not feed Bentley a grain free food, he doesn’t have any of his food allergy symptoms. The peas are what we’ve seen to be the issue for him. We fed Purina Pro Plan for over 2 years and that went very well, but we recently switched to Victor because it was a little cheaper than Pro Plan for a larger bag size. So far, so good.

A low carb food will not help at all. Carbs do not feed yeast on the skin. The only thing that will cause a secondary yeast infection from food is if the dog is sensitive to an ingredient in the food. Not to mention dogs can only react to protein, not starch, fat, vitamins, minerals, carbs.

[BaileysMom86]

Hi Susan, yes I am seeing a dermatologist. The Cytopoint didn’t help Bailey at all unfortunately 🙁 Apoquel, Atopica, and several different steroid pills didn’t help either. A steroid shot helped but only for a few weeks. I’m going to stay on the prescription food while I introduce him to different proteins, carbs, etc one by one to see if anything makes him flare up. I’m just surprised he is so itchy on the prescription food. Even if he has environmental allergies, the itching has increased since being on this food and I think it’s the high carb content since there’s alot of cornstarch. I’m going to try a lower carb food after the trial is over and I’m hoping that will help.

[haleycookie]

If there’s nothing medically or physically wrong with him any food would be fine. Typically higher protein lower carb foods would be the best. Some I can think of are Natures variety raw boost, merrick Orijen. Canidae has a new food called ancestrial that looks very promising as well.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by haleycookie.

[Susan]

Hi Franette,

I’d stop feeding dog fish kibbles, my boy also has IBD & I feed a fish formula in the beginning. Fish seem to help him then all of a sudden he was getting bad acid reflux from the fish oils..Look at feeding white cleaner meats like Chicken, Turkey, Pork these meats are white easier to digest & dont have as much toxins as the fish dog foods have, get a kibble that’s lower in Kcals per cup kibbles under 370Kcals per cup, I stay around 340 Kcals per cup, the higher teh Kcals the more dense teh dry kibble is & harder to digest the kibble… I have found my Patch does heaps better eating a kibble that is lower in carbs lower in fiber & the fat doesnt have to be really low, its the Fiber & Carbohydrates that need to be lower..Fiber can be 4-5% & under, Carbs 36% & under, fat- 10-14% & protein 26-34%…higher teh protein & fat the lower the carbs.
Im feeding “Wellness Core” Large Breed formula at the moment, my boy isnt a large breed dog & the Wellness Core Large breed formula is high in omega fatty acid but not no fish/salmon oils, oils can upset his stomach, Vet Diets are the same they are high in fish oil causing acid reflux..he licks his paws, bed sheets, grinds his teeth & mouth licks..

Can you afford an Endoscope + Biopsies done you need the “biopsies” only 2 biospsies of his stomach & esophagus to see does he have Helicobacter-Pylori then he takes 21 day course of triple therapy meds, Metronidazole, Amoxillicin every 12 hours with meal & 20mg Losec given of a morning for 21 days then he stays on the 20mg Losec tablet to stop the Helicobactor coming back & living in his stomach wall, the Omeprazole (Losec) will stop the acid reflux, or ask vet can you just try the Triple therapy meds for 21 day & continue with 20mg x Losec after te triple therapy course has finished? if you dont have the $700 for Endoscope + biopsies, triple therapy meds will stop him feeling so hungry & wanting food all day within 5 days of starting triple therapy medications, do you have a good vet that knows about IBD?…
All dogs have Helicobacter but when a dog doesn’t have a healthy intestinal tract normally dogs with IBD get the Helicobacter over growth, it takes over the dogs stomach & lives in their stomach wall giving them acid reflux & a norring feeling in the stomach & as soon as you eat this norring feeling in stomach goes away, then the food gets digested & this norring feeling comes back, so you want to keep eating & eating to stop the stomach pain.

Start feeding him a new limited ingredient kibble the first mate fish formula ur feeding has Tomato Pomace as 4th ingredient also the fiber is 8% this is high in fiber & can make acid reflux worse.. does he need this higher fiber for his IBD? can he eat a kibble that has 4-5% fiber instead?
Try a kibble that has chicken or pork or turkey kibble, something that has a white meat, turkey, chicken, pork, sweet potatoes, potatoes, peas..& has lower fiber also feed 5 smaller meals a day, instead of feeding 2 larger meals a day..
Can you get “Natural Balance”LTD Sweet Potato & Bison formula or Potato & Duck formula etc or “Wellness Core” Large Breed Adult formula? if your dog does need the higher fiber then “Wellnesss Core” has their Reduced Fat formula.. I’d be asking your vet can you please try the 21 day course of Triple Therapy meds for Helicobactor & then can your dog continue & stay on 20mg X Omeprazole (Losec)
Then see does the floor licking & feeling hungry & wanting food 24/7 goes away or reduces…Good Luck keep us posted what you try.

[Susan]

Hi Baileys Mom,
Join this face book group, link below, 2 Dermatologist frequent this group + 1 of the Admins dog suffers with Yeast, her dog is allergic to her own yeast, it’s rare but it happens… https://www.facebook.com/groups/240043826044760/
As they age their allergies get worse… Are you seeing a Dermatologist?

My boy also gets yeasty paws, red around mouth & yeasty smelly skin but only when he eats certain ingredients he is sensitive too & when he walks on grass & wet grass..
He suffers with Food Sensitivities, Seasonal Environment Allergies & IBD, this last Summer has been his WORST Summer he has ever had in the 5 yrs I’ve owned him.
I live Australia & we did not have a Autunm this year, it went from hot Summer straight to cold Winter, my vet also said she is seeing heaps more dogs suffering with Environment Allergies last Summer 2017-2018….. Cause of climate change & our Summers are getting hotter & hotter, animals, plants etc are all suffering…

Make sure when you cook or do a raw diet it’s balanced properly & is high in Omega 3 oils, as Omega 3 is Neutral anti-inflammatory. Here’s “Balance It” site, https://secure.balanceit.com/

*also have you tried “Rayne Canada” vet diets? http://www.raynecanada.ca/canine-diets/
Ranye has Kangaroo, Crocodile & Rabbit formula’s, ingredients in Rayne formula’s seem a bit better
….also did you try the TOTW Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb that’s what Patch ended up doing really good on for 2 yrs then he became very unwell last Novemeber after I moved he stopped eating his TOTW… listen to your dog if he doesnt want to eat something, dont feed it, return the food & get a refund….We have just had a heap of dogs die & get Megaesophagus in Australia from the Advance Dermocare formula.. Test that were done found very high in toxins, everyone is still waiting for test results…the poor Police dogs are feed the Advance Dermocare or Advance dog foods..
Patch never did well on the Australian prescription vet diets for his skin, they would clear up his skin problem but not his red paws & then he’d start reacting with his IBD cause the fat was too high.. One good thing the Skin Vet Diets are very high in Omega oils, but this upset Patches stomach, he gets bad acid reflux, I wonder if that’s why Bailey is feeling yuk & miserable..being a Shih Tzu mix, they can suffer from Pancreatitis, so be careful with high fat diets, we don’t realise cause we just want them to stop their itching & scratching it drives me nuts so imagine the poor dog feeling so itchy 24/7..

I use “Sudocrem” on Patches paws & around his mouth & anywhereon his skin that’s red, Sudocem is a anti-fungal, anti-bacterial healing cream for Dermatitis, Eczema, Nappy Rash, Pressure Sores, I apply every night before bed so he has a good sleep & in morning on his paws before he goes outside for his walk, the Sudocrem is a thick cream & also protects their skin & paws from allergens.

Also “Canine Skin Solutions” on FaceBook is Dr Karen Helton Rhodes, DVM, DACVD & Dr Terri Bonenberger, DVM, DACVD both are Veterinary Dermatologists. Good site with true information..
https://www.facebook.com/CanineSkinSolutionsInc/

* Here’s their “Facts & Myths about Yeast Dematitis in dog”s..
http://www.healthyskin4dogs.com/blog/2015/9/8/facts-myths-about-yeast-dermatitis-in-dogs

There’s alot of bad information on the internet about why dogs get yeasty, smelly, itchy skin, ears, paws etc potaoes, high carb starchy foods, high sugar diets are suppose to cause yeasty smelly dogs….Not true… its only when your dog is sensitive to certain ingredients they will get yeasty itchy smelly skin, ears, paws…. Patch can’t eat rice, oats, barley, tapioca causes red itchy paws & smelly yeasty skin, bad farts sloppy poos & carrots cause very itchy ears & he shakes & shakes his head/ears..

The only way 100% to find out what foods Bailey is sensitive too is to start a food elimination diet BUT cause he probably has environment allergies as well it’s hard cause you might feed him say rice & then he starts scratching 20mins after he has eaten the rice or new ingredient your testing but he might be re acting to tree or flower pollen from outside in garden?, so I always recommend you do your food elimination diet is the cooler months, Winter when allergens aren’t as high, as they are in Spring & Summer months…
Patch is at his worst every March just when Summer has finished also keep a diary & you will work out what months seem to be the worst for Bailey. Patches vet said she sees Patch every March when his IBD flares up really bad cause his immune system goes into over drive & Patches IBD flare up really bad also high potency Vitamin C is good, also probiotic to strengthen the immune system… Prednisone is a bandaid as soon as you stop giving the Prednisone the itchy skin all comes back…. have you tried Cytopoint injections yet? this is why it’s best to join the “Dog Allergies, Issues & other information support group” right up the top is their link…

[haleycookie]

I would go with natures variety puppy raw boost. Probably the lowest carb grain free puppy food you can easily find in a petstore.

[Susan]

Hi Jaskirat,
Go to pet shop & buy a Large Breed Puppy dry kibble, this way your puppy will get all the nutritents he/she needs for growing & bones while she/he’s a pup..
google “Diet for Large Breed Puppy”

* “Royal Canine” wrote-
The growth rate of a puppy is influenced by the nutrient density of the food and the amount of food fed. Regardless of whether puppies grow slow or fast, they will still reach a similar adult weight. It is critical that puppies are fed for optimal growth and bone development, rather than maximal growth to avoid skeletal abnormalities.

Three dietary components have been implicated as factors that increase the incidence of skeletal disease in large and giant breed puppies; protein, calcium and energy.

* “Hills” Wrote-
Large and giant breed dogs — Great Danes, German shepherds, Labrador retrievers and the like — have different nutritional needs than smaller breeds. All puppies are born with their bones still developing, but large breed puppies are more susceptible to developmental bone and joint disease during their rapid growth phase to 1 year of age. In fact, large breeds reach 50 percent of their body weight at around 5 months of age. Smaller breeds reach 50 percent of their body weight at around 4 months of age.
The growth rates of all puppies are dependent on the food that they eat. Puppies should be fed to grow at an average, rather than a maximum, growth rate. Compared to smaller-sized puppies, large breed puppies need restricted levels of fat and calcium to moderate their rate of growth. They’ll still reach their full-grown size, just over a longer period of time, which will result in healthy development of bones and joints for these breeds.
Two key nutrients that should be decreased for large breed puppies are fat (and total calories) and calcium:
*Fat: High fat/calorie intake causes rapid weight gain, and bones/muscles aren’t developed enough to support the excessive body weight. Controlling the fat level and total calories in the food for these puppies may help reduce the risk of developmental bone and joint problems.
*Calcium: Excessive calcium intake increases the likelihood of skeletal problems. It is also recommended that calcium supplements not be fed with any commercial pet food for growth.

Kibbles to look at
“Eagle Pack” Large breed puppy dry formula for puppy
“Eagle Pack” Large Breed Adult dry formula for your adult dog
“Canidae” Large Breed, All Life Stages Turkey & Brown Rice formula can be feed to both your dogs.
“Wellness Core Large Breed Puppy…
“Wellness Core” Large Breed Adult..
“4Health” Grain Free Large Breed Puppy.
“4Health” Grain Free Large Breed Adult. Sold at Tractor Supply shop & is cheaper..

If you’re on facebook join a Canine Raw Feeding group..
“The Australian Raw Feeding Community” f/b group, is really good & help starters.
Also look at buying & adding tin sardines in spring water or Olive Oil to diet as Sardines have Vitamins, Minerals, Omega fatty oils, Calcium etc add 2 spoons sardines a day to 1 of their meals to help balance their raw diet…

*Nutrition Facts
Sardine, Atlantic, canned in oil
Amount Per 100 grams

Calories 208

Total Fat 11 g-16%
Saturated fat 1.5 g-7%
Polyunsaturated fat 5 g
Monounsaturated fat 3.9 g
Cholesterol 142 mg-47%
Sodium 505 mg-21%
Potassium 397 mg-11%
Total Carbohydrate 0 g-0%
Dietary fiber 0 g-0%
Sugar 0 g
Protein 25 g-50%
Vitamin A-2%
Vitamin C-0%
Calcium-38%
Iron-16%
Vitamin D-48%
Vitamin B-6-10%
Vitamin B-12-148%
Magnesium-9%

Just make sure you check the salt % & get the lowest salt% can of Sardines in spring water or olive Oil cans.

[Patricia A]

Can someone please explain why some dog food is reviewed as being high in carbs and gets a Dog Food Advisor rating of 5 and on his preferred list. I thought carbs are what you would see lower in an excellent dog food with the higher protein and even average or higher fat? Then I see other reviews with LOW carbs, higher protein and average fat also being five stars. I’m so confused. I was looking at this one in particular for Bravo Freeze Dried. Is it high fat or carbs that would weight on a dog that needs to loose a little?
As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 48% and a mean fat level of 13%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 32% for the overall product line.
And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 26%.
Above-average protein. Below-average fat. And above-average carbs when compared to a typical raw dog food.

[Susan]

Hi Pennelope,
I use to have a Boxer her name was Angie, she was a white Boxer with a tan Patch over her left eye, she was the most beautiful dog I’ve ever owned, a real lady she was, so gentle, now I have a 9yr old English Staffy another rescue pound dog, he’s very friendly has to talk to everyone when we go out & has to tell people when he has his sore stomach, he starts whinging then he lifts his right paw up so they rub his stomach, where Angie, she kept to herself when we’d go out….
My boy has IBD-(Stomach, Acid Reflux, 20mins after eating meal food/water comes back up into mouth, his Sphincter flap in Esophagus doesn’t close), Food Sensitivies & Environment Allergies…
Last Summer I thought he had EOE (eosinophilic esophagitis) vet did Endoscope + Biopsies & said no to the EOE.

Salvia, Fur & Blood testing gives false positives, the only true way to know what foods your dog is sensitive too is to do a food elimination diet or feed a Hypoallergenic vet diet, after eating vet diet for 6-8weeks & your dog is doing well, not reacting, then you start adding 1 new food to his diet for 6 weeks to see does he react, if he reacts stop the new food, start keeping a diary & write down everything…

There’s a few Canine ME groups on facebook, you’ll met alot of pet parents who are going thru what you’re going thru everyday….

This year I started feeding my boy “Wellness Core” Large Breed, Patch seemed to be reacting to everything last Summer, Patch also takes a Proton Pump Inhibitor (PPI) started taking 20mg Pantoprazole (PPI) in March this year after I nilly put him to sleep, 2 yrs ago he started taking Omeprazole (Losec) & he did really well, he stop burping & stopped food coming up & stopped his acid reflux, then around Xmas 2017 Patch went down hill after we moved, his vet said his allergies are really bad making his immune system go into over drive causing him to have a IBD flare, it was awful watching this once happy go lucky dog go down hill so quickly, he just gave up, his food just kept coming up he can not eat any wet wet foods, only dry kibble seems to stay down the best, I feed him 5 smaller meals a day, 7am & 9am-1/2 a cup kibble both times, 12pm – a wet vet diet Royal Canine, Gastrointestinal Low Fat, 1/3 of the can or Hills I/d Digestive Care, Chicken, Vegetables & Rice Stew a small can, I have to remove all the carrots & boiled rice, Patch can’t eat carrots he starts getting itchy ears & shakes his head & scratches his ears & the boiled rice goes thru Patch, boiled rice irritates his bowel, he gets rumbling, grumbling loud noises whe he eats boiled rice…5pm- 1/2 a cup kibble & 8pm-1/3 cup kibble..
I have found Sweet Potatoes & Boiled Potatoes are excellent with Patch also alot of dogs with ME & IBD do really well on boiled potatoes/sweet potatoes or a dry kibble that has potatoes/sweet potatoes…
I wouldn’t put all ur eggs in 1 backet with the allergy test your dog has had done, what ingredients was he he eating when he got this test??
My vet said normally the ingredients the dogs are eating at teh time of theses allergy test will come up high, when I asked for a blood test years ago, she wouldnt do it, she said, I’m not wastiing your money & said we’ll started Patch on the “Royal Canine” Tapioca & Duck vet diet its gluten free or she said, cook him lean turkey mince & boiled potatoes & start the elimination diet…
Have a look at “Natural Balance”LTD Sweet Potato & Bison or Sweet Potato & Fish” or
“Wellness Simple” Salmon & Potatoes but I think all Wellness grain free dog foods have peas??
This is where you’ll need to start a proper food elimination diet & test the ingredients that the allergy test said your dog is sensitive too.. most grainfree pet food have peas & the grain kibbles normally have rice, so the only option is to feed a vet diet, look at “Royal Canine Select Proteins” PR-Potato & Rabbit wet & dry formula’s or there’s PW, Potato & Salmon aswell, or Hills has their Z/d or Potato & Duck or Potato & Venison formula’s or look at the “Ranye Canada” vet diets http://www.raynecanada.ca/canine-diets/
Rayne has Kangaroo, Crocodile & Rabbit wet & dry formula’s but you’ll have to be careful with the fat, it needs to be low/med, carbs need to be low & protein high….
The Royal Canine Select Protein vet formula’s may be the best to start your dog on.. he doesn’t have to stay on them long term, just till you work out what foods he can & can’t eat, it can take 20mins, 1 day up to 6 weeks for a dog to show symptoms & react to a certain food ingredients.. Takes Patch 20mins after eating a food he’s sensitive too & react, his paws go red & hot,
For his environment allergies, it’s best to bath them twice a week or weekly, to wash off any allergens on skin & paws, I use “Sudocrem” cream, it’s a Anti-Fungal, Anti-Bacterial Healing thick white cream for Dermatitis, Eczema, Nappy Rash, Pressure Sores etc, it stops itchy skin, reddness, yeast, every night before bed I check Patches whole body & I apply the Sudocrem or Cortisone 1% cream when his paws are really red, this normally happens after we have had rain for a few days & he walks on wet grass or the wet morning dew on grass of a morning, Ialso use teh Huggie Baby Coconut baby wipes & wipe Patch down after we have gone for a walk or he’s been outside & I dont want to bath him after he has rolled & rub his whole body on the grass..
Once you get into a routine, routine makes life easier.. plus dogs love a routine they feel safe & stable…
If your on face book put “Megaesophagus Canine groups” in Search bar, I’ll probably see you over there..

[Susan]

Hi Nicole,
maybe start with Freeze Dried Raw & see how he goes, but make sure its a limited ingredient freeze dried or Air Dried diet there’s “Ziwi Peak” look at the Venison or Rabbit formula, https://www.ziwipets.com/ the Ziwi Peak wet raw can food is really good but it’s expensive but its balanced & all ready to go, email Ziwi Peak & ask for samples..
at first slowly introduce the freeze dried or Air Dried with his kibble he’s doing OK on, add new freeze dried slowley over 2 week period & see how he goes, or I went thru a Animal Nutritionist with my boy who has IBD, you can still feed the kibble he’s eating now, just feed the kibble for breakfast then feed the raw meal for Dinner or the other way around but when I first started Patch on a raw diet he was hungry cause he was use to eating a dry kibble that was high in carbs that kept him feeling full longer, I had to feed him a small snack at lunch time to get him thru to Dinner…

Go on facebook & search for “The Australian Raw Feding Community” facebook group, or buy “Lew Olson” book her f/b group is called “K-9 Nutrition” or Dr Karen Becker has a book, both books are very easy to follow, I just went to the library & borrowed the books to make sure they were OK before I bought them…Dr Karen Becker is bringing out her latest new book it should be out by now, go on her f/b page “Karen Becker” & ask her is her lastest raw feeding book out yet?
or you can start feeding the Pre-Made raw but I was advise NOT to feed Patch any Pre-made raw dog diets you buy from pet shops, home made raw is more fresh & you know what your adding into your boy raw diet..
I had to start Patch on 1 meat protein-Kangaroo mince feed at breakfast with blended veggie/fruit mix & Chicken Breast cut up for dinner with blended green veggetables, broccolli, celery, parsley & 1 fruit-apple peeled. remove all seeds, cut up then put in a blender add 1-2 spoons of the veggies /fruit mix to 1 cup of meat, then I froze the remaining fruit & veggie mix in ice cube trays covered in cling wrap then you take out 1 cube = 1 spoon when you need it & I also added the Digestavite Plus powder to balance the diet cause Patches diet had no bone or organ meats yet cause of Patches IBD, we started him on an elimination raw diet in the beginning, this is why it might be best to see a Holistic vet or Animal Nutritionist to formulate a raw diet for a growing puppy who has IBS…
Here’s the Nutritionist I went thru she does Skpe, emails or rings you, here’s her “Maintenance raw diet” she gave me for Patch & I had to pick 2 meats, 2-3 vegatbles & 1-2 fruits to begin with, but we would email back & forth… http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/education.php

[Susan]

Hi Charles,

The only way you will know 100% what foods your dog is sensitive too is to do a food elimination diet, you start by feeding 1 novel protein, a protein source he hasn’t eaten before & add 1 carb….this takes a while to do but you get results, I picked ingredients for the elimination diet that were in kibbles he had eaten & ingredients in kibbles I wanted to feed him.
Raw was the easiest way to do the elimination food diet as you dont have to cook & Patch reacted within 20mins of eating raw chicken breast, his back paw went red, swollen & hot, he was licking & licking his back paw, I had to put an ice pack on his back paw, so I knew straight away “NO more chicken”, then I started cooking his elimination diet as I didnt want to give him raw grated potato, raw carrots etc cause he has IBD & I found cooked carrots made his ears itch & he’d shake his head & scratch his ears, if you dont want to cook or feed a raw diet for the elimination diet then ask your vet about Hypoallergenic vet diets, would be your next step, once your dog has been eating the vet diet for 6 weeks & dog is not scratching, no red paws etc then you start adding 1 new ingredient for 6 week peroid or as soon as you see the dog reacting you stop adding the new ingredient, it can take anywhere from 1 day to 6 weeks to see a reaction to an ingredient..

Alot of people will blame an ingredient in a kibble, there’s so many ingredients so they blame the potatoes, peas, chicken etc like I did, then when yrs later I did elimination food diet & I tested cooked potato then 1 month later I added cooked sweet potatoes, my dog he didnt react at all, no itching, no red paws, no gas, no sloppy poos, so for 2 years I had avoid buying any dog foods that had potato in them, also kibbles have too many ingredients in them so its very hard to know 100% what ingredient is causing the skin, ear or paw problems…. also normal pet shop & supermarket dry kibble become cross contaminated while being made or while being cut into the kibble shape from the cutting machine, so you’ll never really work out what ingredient your dog is reacting too in a dry kibble… Vet diets are suppose to not be cross contaminated…..

If you don’t like Hills, Royal Canine or Purina vet diets then there’s “Rayne Canada” vet diets they have Novel proteins Crocodile, Kangaroo & Rabbit formula’s..
It’s sooooo hard to really know 100% what your dois reacting too cause you also have the envrionment allergies aswell that he might be reacting too that day 🙁
But with my Patch he reacts to foods within 20mins of eating them he starts scratching & gets reditchy paws & start to lick them, & his gastro problems can take anywhere from 6-8hours to 1-2 days depends, Lentils he reacted within 6 hours of eating a kibble that had lentils in it…
I found it best to do your elimination food diet in the cooler months when environment allergens aren’t as active…..also as the dog ages their allergies become worse, Patch had the worst Summer last December & this January it was awful his immune system went into over drive & made his IBD flare up, I nilly put him to sleep, I couldn’t handle watching him suffer, he couldn’t swollow his food, everything he ate was coming back up into his mouth, his vet begged me to hang in there & wait 1-2 months for Summer to be over before you put him to sleep, I’m very lucky, well Patch is very lucky to have a really good vet, he wouldnt be here now…. Make sure your dogs diet is high in Omega 3 & give Probiotics daily, one thing about the Vet diets for skin problems they are very high in omega 3, so make sure if you’re not feeding a vet diet & doing an elimination diet or feeding normal dry kibble, start adding fish/salmon or Krill Oil capsules, Krill Oil capsules are suppose to not cause stomach problems & are better for dogs who suffer with Stomach problems…
Good-Luck
Here’s the Rayne Canada site.. http://www.raynecanada.ca/canine-diets/

[Chris F]

Always look at the first five ingredients. You want to see Good quality Protein, Complex Carbs and Vitamins/Minerals. Second look at the G’teed Analysis – you want to see high protein, low fat and low carbs. Next look at the calorie/cup. The higher it is the higher the fat content. Is the dog suitable for your dog’s age? Is there anything within the ingredients to suggest sub-quality foods, additives and other fillers?

There is some other great advice given in the thread to help you out make the best decision for your pet.

[Jeff F]

I need some advice about what to feed my 9 yr old Miniature Schnauzer. Five years ago he had two surgeries to remove medium – large calcium oxalate stones. At that time his vet prescribed Royal Canin Urinary S.O. dry dog food. Now, four years later, his triglyceride level is 4X what it is supposed to be. The vet was very concerned, and had us change to Royal Canin Low-fat Canned food. (The most disgusting smelling stuff ever, but the dog loves it.). His x-rays show that he again has some tiny stones that are the size of a grain of sand. Can anyone suggest a food (preferably dry) that is low fat/carb and will help with the stones. Also, he is allergic to beef. So we also have that to deal with. Thanks for any help provided.

[Jason O]

Thank you all for your replies. Our dog doesn’t have full blown kidney disease, her numbers are just elevated a bit. We had an ultrasound taken of her a few years ago and the tech said her intestines have difficulty pushing food through. That combined with her elevated numbers led the vet to suggest a K/D diet.

She just won’t eat any of the Hills K/D anymore, although we haven’t tried ALL of the different flavors. She likes the K/D kibble, but she has a tough time digesting it. When we water it down, she has no interest in it. She’s really finicky and we may end up having to cycle foods every two days or something.

She really likes nabbing our bigger dogs food, which is Natural Balance Sweet Potato Venison. I tried feeding her the wet version and she took a few bites and that was it. The numbers looked okay, although protein was a bit down.
Crude Protein 20.0% Min.
Crude Fat 10.0% Min.
Crude Fiber 5.0% Max.
Moisture 10.0% Max.
Calcium 0.8% Min.
Phosphorus 0.6% Min.
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 1.5% Min.
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.5% Min

My second attempt was Hill’s Adult Light With Liver. She ate a larger portion of that last night, and this morning she chowed it and wanted more.
Protein 23.9
Fat 9.0
Crude Fiber 13.0
Carbohydrate / NFE 48.4
Calcium 0.74
Phosphorous 0.61
Sodium 0.32
Potassium 0.96
Magnesium 0.141
Vitamin C 105 ppm
Vitamin E 903 IU/kg
Total Omega-3 FA 0.39
Total Omega-6 FA 3.67

We have a vet appointment either tonight or tomorrow to re-up her prescriptions and discuss the diet issues. I have a feeling the vet will say “if she’s eating, pooping, and drinking just roll with it”.

[Susan]

Hi Jason,
best to email the pet food companies to get the Phosphorus max % & any other information you need….
Did you look at Hills I/d Low Fat, Rice, Veggetable & Chicken Stew
5.5 oz (156 g) can

Nutrient
Dry Matter
%
Protein
23.7
Fat
9.5
Crude Fiber
3.3
Carbohydrate / NFE
57.7
Calcium
0.89
Phosphorous
0.61
Sodium
0.42
Potassium
1.06
Magnesium
0.091
Total Omega-3 FA
1.32

Or there’s the Hills I/d Low Fat Loaf Style bigger
13 oz (370 g) can
Nutrient
Dry Matter
%
Protein
24.5
Fat
8.3
Crude Fiber
2.7
Carbohydrate / NFE
58.9
Calcium
0.76
Phosphorous
0.53
Sodium
0.44
Potassium
0.90
Magnesium
0.081
Vitamin C
133 ppm
Vitamin E
722 IU/kg
Total Omega-3 FA
0.66

There’s the Hills K/d Chicken & Vegetable stew but the fat is higher at 24%,
the Hills I/d Low Fat Stew fat is heaps lower at 9.5%max & with your dog having gastro problems she might need a lower fat diet?

Go onto the Hills Prescription Diet site & look thru all their wet can stews or Loaf style meals, my dog & cat love the Hills I/d Chicken & Vegetable Stew small can the fat is higher at 14.9% Phosphorous -0.81%

Or contact a Dog Nutritionist & have a cooked diet made up, go on Facebook look for Monica Segals f/b group called “K-9 Kitchen” join then post a post asking for a low Phosphorous diet for early stages Kidney & Gastro problems, Monica might post one of her homemade diets… also there’s “Dr Judy Morgan DVM” f/b page she answers msg.

[Patricia A]

Thank you Susan for that info. Funny but when I read advisors analysis for Primal Freeze Dried he wrote Not suitable for all dogs because of the protein to fat ratio. But now I just went under his feeding type for adult dogs and the analysis was LOWER average fat for the sardine/turkey and rabbit freeze dried recipes. Vensison was average fat. Stella’s freeze dried were ALL ABOVE average fat . Still don’t know if the fat puts weight on dogs cause they are all low carbs. IN any case I’m staying away from the Stella’s and will be looking into what you suggested.

[Susan]

Hi Brianne,
My boy has IBD, he gets bad acid reflux & gets Pancreas/stomach pain lifts his right paw up whinges & wants me to rub around his stomach & Pancreas area, we have done the blood test & Ultra scan for Pancreatitis & everything comes back OK his Gastro vet says its his IBD, its his stomach….
If your dog isnt really interested in his Blue Bufflo kibble change it & find a kibble or low fat wet can or Freeze Dried raw kibble to feed him, I have found I need to rotate between a few foods that agree with him, they must be low/medium fat around 10%min to 14% max in fat, Protein over 25% & Carbs under 30% & fiber under 4%..
A dogs digestive tract is short & ment to digest a raw meaty diet not these processed dry kibbles, this is why I think so many dogs are having stomach & bowel problems……

My boy loves the Hills I/d Chicken & Vegetable Stew wet can food & the Royal Canine Intestinal Low Fat wet can food I just get a paper towel & pat down & dry all the oil from the Royal Canin low fat wet food, Why I buy teh Vet Diet Wet can foods cause the fat is low where pet shop went can foods are higher in fat…
Patch gets his acid when a food has fish/salmon oils, he does well on Canola & sunflower oils…
Have you tried an ant acid reducer like Pepcid or Zantac ? you give 30mins before 2 of his main meals a day, my boy is on an ant acid blocker now he started off on Omeprazole (Prilosec) took it for 2 yrs then around December last year I moved & Patch went down hill really bad, I asked his vet can he do another Endoscope + Biopsies you must ask for the Biopsies so the vet knows what is really happening in stomach, my Patches Sphincter flap isn’t closing & the acid is coming up his esophagus into his mouth & went back down into his wind pipe this probably why he became so unwell the beginning of the year, I nilly put him to sleep he just gave up it was awful to watch, also his Helicobacter-Pylori were come back & he had Gastritis stomach…so he was put on 21 day triple therapy meds Metronidazole Amoxcillin & Prilosec given every 12 hours with a full meal, then after the 21 days I continued giving just 1 x 20 Prilosec tablet of a morning for his acid reflux & to keep his Helicotor away, it lives in their stomach walks & loves sugary carbs (kibble)
In the end I had to stop any wet foods cause they kept coming up into hois mouth causing bad acid reflux, I found Wellness Core Large Breed dry kibble & he’s doing really well now, he’s acting like a puppy, he isnt a large breed dog he’s an English Staffordshire Terrier, the Wellness Core Large Breed formula is low/med Fat-13%, Protein-35%, Carbs-31% low in Kcals per cup -345Kcals per cup & is high in Omega 3 & has Glusomine & Chondroitin helping his joints & bones he’s 9ys old & it has no chickpeas or lentils…

I’d change his diet, if you can cook 1-2 of his meals a lean white meat with boiled sweet potatoes, sweet potato freezes really well & feed his other 2 meals the Wellness Core large Breed formula, try & feed 3-4 smaller meals a day, I feed him at 7am, 9am-1/2 cup kibble both times 12pm-wet can food or cooked food or his freeze dried raw food & 5pm -1/2 cup kibble & 8pm-1/3 kibble, & try an ant acid reducer first either the Pepcid (Famotidine) or Zantac (Ranitidine) 30 mins before 2 of his main meals, if they dont really help him then ask vet about trying Omeprazole (Prilosec) 20mg best given first thing of the morning just wait about 20mins then feed him but you dont really dont have to wait before feeding him as Prilosec is a Protein Pump Inhibitor (PPI) sends a msg to the brain not to make as much Hydrochloric acid in the stomach, where the Zantac & Pepcid works differently & I found didnt really help Patch… You will see results within 2-3 days after using the Omeprazole..
Sometimes I also give Patch either 5ml liquid Mylanta or 1/2 a Quick-eze chew when he has vomited up acid these line his throat & eosphagus & make him feel better…

[Patricia A]

I’m still hanging in there trying to find a freeze dried topper my picky eater likes and my 8 year old Chihuahua that tends towards easy weight gain. Anyone have good things to say about Bixbi Freeze dried? It rates as average Fat low carbs vs Stella’s and Primal with above average fat as a whole for all recipes. I just recently saw this in the Pet Supply store I go to.