[Newfs]

Hi,
once again would like to ask for help in choosing food for my 3.5 month Newfoundland from food available in Poland: Fromm Gold http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold or Husse http://www.husse.co.uk/dog-food-products/dry-food-for-dogs/?product=110 or Enova http://www.enovapetfood.com/photoVideoGallery.aspx?cid=4680&mid=18452 or
Enova ADULT Breeders BAG GRAIN-FREE SIMPLE!
Complete food without cereal with fresh chicken meat. It can be administered to dogs from 2 months to 7 years old.
food without grains
addition of fresh chicken meat (min. 20%)
contains glucosamine and chondroitin supplement
Ingredients: dried chicken meat (min. 23.3%), fresh chicken meat (min. 20%), potato flour, dried green peas, chicken fat, dried beet pulp, flaxseed, dried egg protein hydrolyzate, dried yeast, fish oil, dried carrots, dried tomato puree, dried seaweed, sodium chloride, glucosamine, chondroitin.
Analytical constituents: crude protein – 31.5%, oils and fats – 19.5%, crude fiber – 3,5%, crude ash – 6,5%, calcium – 1.25%, phosphorus – 0.95% , moisture – 10.0%.
Extras: antioxidants. Dietary supplements in 1 kg of feed: Vitamin A – 15,000 IU Vitamin D3 – 1200 IU Vitamin E – 150 mg Copper (as copper sulphate pentahydrate) – 10 mg.
Analysis
protein: 31.5%
fat: 19.5%
Crude fiber 3.5%
ash 6.5%
humidity 10.0%
omega – 6 2.7%
Chondroitin 250 mg / kg
calcium 1.25%
phosphorus 1.0% – 0.95%
copper 10 mg / kg
selenium 0.2 mg / kg
iodine 2 mg / kg
Vitamin A 15,000 IU / kg
Vitamin D3 1200 IU / kg
Vitamin E 150 IU / kg
Niacin 135 mg / kg
I know that these food contain corn, but such are available in Poland as normal, not a cosmic price :/
Greetings

[InkedMarie]

Hi Michael,
I know nothing about feeding a large breed puppy but I would absolutely feed whatever HoundDogMom suggested.

Komondor? Pictures, please!

[sbrooker]

Any specific brand you would recommend? I’ll check the local health food store. How do I figure out how much to give him?

I’ll take a look to find out if the grocery stores here have Kefir

[theBCnut]

In the US, I suggest getting probiotics online from Swansons, I have no idea if they ship to Canada. But any from the health food store for humans will do. Sometimes they are touted as a digestive aid, so that would be where to look in any pharmacy type store. You can also try plain yogurt, though it doesn’t have very many strains, and the more strains the better. Look in the dairy case for kefir, it’s loaded with probiotics too. You can give about 1/4 cup daily.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you wanted to go the grain-free route – any of the formulas mentioned in the large breed puppy nutrition thread would be good.

[Melissaandcrew]

I had good luck with fromm large breed puppy (grain inclusive) with half Natures Variety rabbit. Mixed half/half for my bulldog.

[Hound Dog Mom]

There’s no scientific basis for not feeding a grain-free food to a large breed puppy – just old wives tales. My last two hounds were weaned onto grain-free with no issues. But if you really don’t want to feed a grain-free food I believe Fromm and Nature’s Variety have some appropriate formulas. I know Innova Large Breed Puppy was good but that was recently recalled. I’m working on compiling a list of appropriate grain-inclusive foods because some people don’t want to feed grain-free.

[spaniel39]

Hi,
anyone have a suggestion for a new food for my giant breed puppy.
IS on hightly rated artemis fresh mix large breed puppy but stools are very loose
all the time (like pudding/soft serve). Tested for giardia,etc and all is fine plus
was wormed twice for 5 days on Panacur just to be sure.
she may have a chicken allergy so was going to try Solid Gold Wolf cub but seems very
grain heavy. Would be wonderful to find a 4 or 5* food that produces firmer stools.
I know Hounddog lady (think that’s her name) has a list of grain free with lower calcium and
phosphorus, but I’ve been told by so many breeders, vets, etc that although grain free
is best for adults (both my spaniels are on Acana and Wellness core ocean)
Pups should not be deprived of grains first 9 months-1 year.
Would welcome any advice
Thank you
Michael and Samuel the Spaniel and Sophie the Komondor

[spaniel39]

Hi,
anyone have a suggestion for a new food for my giant breed puppy.
IS on hightly rated artemis fresh mix large breed puppy but stools are very loose
all the time (like pudding/soft serve). Tested for giardia,etc and all is fine plus
was wormed twice for 5 days on Panacur just to be sure.
she may have a chicken allergy so was going to try Solid Gold Wolf cub but seems very
grain heavy. Would be wonderful to find a 4 or 5* food that produces firmer stools.
I know Hounddog lady (think that’s her name) has a list of grain free with lower calcium and
phosphorus, but I’ve been told by so many breeders, vets, etc that although grain free
is best for adults (both my spaniels are on Acana and Wellness core ocean)
Pups should not be deprived of grains first 9 months-1 year.
Would welcome any advice
Thank you
Michael and Samuel the Spaniel and Sophie the Komondor!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Boerboel Daddy –

Calcium Ascorbate does contain calcium – so I’d go easy on it. Personally, I’d put mom on whatever food the pups will be weaned onto. This will make feeding easier once they’re born. It’s kind of difficult to separate pups and mom for different separate feedings.

[Boerboel Daddy]

Hi

I’m not sure if you have answered a similar question before as i haven’t read through the entire thread.. but here it goes

I have a 2,5 yr old Boerboel ( South African Breed similar to a English Mastiff) who has just mated a week ago. I am currently feeding Eathborn Primitive natural (2.4% Calcium). I will natural feed the pups one of the other Eathborn Foods you have already recommended due to the lower calcium content… (thanks for that info by the way)
.Other articles I’ve read warned against feeding too high levels of calcium to pregnant dogs and recommend switching to a puppy food of a quality dog food. (it had something to do with the contraction of the Uterus)

Finally the Question…: can I keep her on Earthborn Primitive natural (2.4% calcium) or should I switch to another Earthborn product (1.2 – 1.3% calcium) until after she has given birth and continue with primitive natural then?
also if I give her a calcium ascorbate supplement, does this affect the amount of calcium in the diet?

Any advice give will be appreciated, My girl Jordan and I thank you in advance

[sbrooker]

Hi Hound Dog Mom

I have a 5 month old Rhodesian Ridgeback. He has been fed Natures Variety Instict Raw Boost Chicken dry kibble since he could eat solid food. Is this item not on your list because it contains too much Calcium? He really enjoys his food, but I have noticed his stools are sometimes very runny. I attributed this at first to him eating grass and such, but am now wondering if his stomach is reacting to something in his food? Should I consider switching to the Natures Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Turkey that you have listed in your low calcium document?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by sbrooker.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi jaxsmom –

Unfortunately many people are experiencing these same issues with Blue Buffalo. My friend’s golden retriever puppy got very sick on the Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy formula. I also don’t believe that any of the Blue Formulas are appropriate for a large breed puppy such as a lab. I’d recommend checking out the Large Breed Puppy thread – it’s under the “Diet and Health Issues Forum.” Hope that helps!

[jaxsmom]

We have a 6 month old lab mix puppy that has developed a poor appetite and weird eating habits within the last month. He was on blue buffalo lamb and oatmeal puppy food for a couple of months. One day he started getting diarrhea and was acting less energetic and wouldn’t really eat without much coaxing. So we took him to the vet and there were no issues. The vet recommended Prescription Diet food for digestive health and we tried that. He seemed to like that and we decided to slowly get him back on his old food and he would eat his old food when it was mixed with the Prescription Diet. We wanted to get off of that since the first ingredient is corn and get back to something more natural. We tried switching to the blue buffalo large breed puppy chicken and rice to see if he liked that flavor instead. But he really doesn’t have much interest in it and won’t eat it all of it. He will usually take a few kibbles and bring it to a rug and eat it there and then walk away for a bit. His stool is sometimes solid, sometimes loose and it varies how many times he goes in a day. He sometimes has gas too. He also itches his ears and paws a lot, so we are thinking he might have allergies. Does anyone have a suggestion for a dry food that is natural and in the same price range as blue buffalo? Should we get a large breed puppy food? We are considering Hollistic Select as an option.
Thanks for the help!

[GSDsForever]

Above: Pusuke was a Shiba Inu Mix. I haven’t found any other info on specific of her care & diet. Her owner simply said “‘plenty of love, plenty of good food and regular check-ups at the vet’s’.”

5)Sako Med-Large Mix; identified variously as Labrador-Heeler-Staffordshire or Kelpie Mix; 21 yrs

Diet: Nature’s Gift, which owner calls a “fantastic food”

Owner: Maryanne & Tony Wilde
Melbourne, Australia

6)Chanel Wirehaired Dachshund; 21

Diet: Cooked Chicken & Multigrain Pasta, mixed with commercial dog food
adopted from a shelter as a puppy; owners had previous experience w/dachshunds
elder care: wore protective goggles for cataracts; t shirt/sweater for cold & dog booties;
daily exercise & time out; last yrs used a buggie on longer walks

Owners: Karl & Denice Shaughnessy
Port Jeferson Station, New York
http://www.today.com/id/30596398/ns/today-today_pets/t/meet-chanel-almost-worlds-oldest-dog/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/sep/01/worlds-oldest-dog-chanel-dead

[SusanandEcho]

If you are looking for Large Breed Puppy food, Wellness L.B. Puppy is probably one of the best in terms of level of calcium and phos. I work in a pet food store and this is a popular one for those looking for large breed specifically. I agree with Patty…print your list and take it with you.
If you have a specialty pet food store near you I would go that route. The people who work there are more apt to be more knowledgeable simply based on their love of animals. Also ask if the store guarantees their food. The store I work at guarantees all of the food…..if your pet does not like it, won’t eat it, etc then it can be returned for a full refund as long as there is half a bag or more and within 45 days of purchase. Lastly, ask about Frequent Buyer programs, such as buy 10 bags and get the 11th bag free. Most pet foods now days have one.

[theBCnut]

That really doesn’t sound like too much food for a dog that size. If I were you, I would print up that list and take it with you and make notes on it. Find out what you have where you are at and how much it costs. I just discovered Earthborn and think it would be a nice food for large breeds and they have 2 flavors that are appropriate for large breeds, Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast. Stay on puppy food until rapid growth has slowed down, about 8-10 months. All Life Stages foods are appropriate for growth.

[jewlz2121]

Hi everyone! I’m brand spankin new here, so hello. I am adopting a 4 and a half month old American Bulldog/Boxer-Hound puppy who currently weighs 41lbs. He’s estimated to be 80 plus lbs as an adult. He has been fed a petsmart store brand dry food up until now. For obvious reasons, I want to change this and feed him something much better. I have looked through the 10 page awesome large breed puppy thread as well as the created doc file on the best foods with lower calcium. Cost is a factor for us. We wanted to go with a Dry Kibble that was able to be bought at a pet store or easy delivery service. From the list, I was leaning toward Wellness Core Puppy and the Kirkland brand. However, I don’t have a Costco membership so that might be a problem! Can anyone help point me in the right direction to make sure puppy has a better finish to his puppyhood than he started out with? He’s currently eating 2 cups in the a.m. and 1 cup in the p.m. – seems like a lot??? How long to stay on a puppy food? Thank you SO MUCH!

[Newfs]

Hello Hound Dog Mom and all remaining Members 🙂
I am here new, for the last few days I read this forum and I found here many interesting and useful information 🙂
I would like to ask for the help in the selection of the fodder for mine 3,5 the monthly newfoundland pup.
Unfortunately the most recommended feed by you is in Poland inaccessible or they are in cosmic prices.
I consider following fodders, the most of them contains unfortunately cereals: Fromm Family Gold http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold or Enova ( http://www.penner.ee/index.php? http://www.enovapetfood.com/default.aspx?mid=18456 page=138&action=show_product_details&product_id=508&group_id=45 or http://www.e-karma.pl/product-pol-750-ENOVA-Breeders-Bag-Grain-Free-Simple-20-kg.html ) or Husse Valp Maxi http://www.husse.co.uk/dog-food-products/dry-food-for-dogs/?product=110 or Canidae ( in Poland are accessible: All Life Stage Formula, CANIDAE Grain Free Pure Elements: chicken, turkey, lamb, ocean fish)
Possibly: Nutra Gold http://www.nutragold.com/products/which_formula/dogs/large_breed_puppy/ or Hills ( http://www.hillspet.com/products/ha-canine-puppy-large-breed-healthy-advantage-dry-dry.html or http://www.hillspet.com/products/sd-canine-puppy-large-breed-dry.html or http://www.hillspet.co.uk/en-gb/products/nb-canine-natures-best-puppy-large-breed-giant-dry.html )
What do you advise to me ?
I greet

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’ve been feeding raw for a few years so I have a good feel for balancing – I know what foods contain which nutrients, how much bone to feed, how much organ meat, which types of fats to add, etc. I started off using recipe books, but for the most part I now formulate my own menus. A lot of it is just variety. Each meal doesn’t have to be balanced but if you feed a variety of healthy and species-appropriate foods the nutrients should balance over time. Just like with people – each meal we eat isn’t completely balanced but we eat a variety of foods. I actually have several of my menus posted under the “Recommended Raw Food Menus” topic on the raw thread if you want to check them out. Towards the end I actually have a couple that I ran a full nutrient analysis on – just for kicks – and they conform to the AAFCO nutrient profile for all life stages.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbam –

Glad he’s enjoying his food with the canned!

Raw can be done cheaply or it can be done very expensively. I’ve gotten VERY savvy at cutting costs over the years and am now feeding all three of my hounds for ~$350 per month (not too shabby when you consider I’m going through around 200 lbs. of meat a month + fruits/veggies and other extras like eggs and kefir + supplements). Homemade is MUCH cheaper – I get all my meat from a wholesale supplier that supplies local restaurants and grocery stores (truck come right to my house, I order ~300 lbs. per shipment) and I order my supplements from Swanson’s (low cost human supplements).

[EHubbman]

Day 3 on mixing in some canned food and he is LOVING it. 🙂 I’ve never seen the boy eat so voraciously!

We’re doing NV Instinct Rabbit Kibble right now, going to get a bag of the LID Turkey when he runs out of this. Then I’ve got a few different varieties of canned that I just add a decent size tablespoon of to his kibble and mix it in. Right now I’m just using NV Instinct cans until I get Cal/Phos numbers back from Hound and Gatos. At which point, we may try mixing in some of those as well. I’m rotating the canned recipes every meal to keep him interested (So far, so good!).

(Side note: Apparently in Sept 2013 H&G’s is releasing a line of grain-free kibbles, so I’m interested to see what those will be about!)

I talked to a friend about going partial raw/full raw and she said it’s not quite as expensive as I’d think, so we’re looking into that as well.

Thanks again for your help! I don’t think I would be near as confident with our food choices had I not found this thread and all the great help you have given!

[pugmomsandy]

Here’s a topic on large and giant breed nutrition:

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

[Hound Dog Mom]

Canned food can get pricey too. If you’re on a budget and you’ve got a Tractor Supply near you they sell 4Health canned (rated 4.5 stars) for $0.99 per can. There are three grain-free varieties (chicken, beef and turkey stew) and also three grain-inclusive varieties (chicken and rice, lamb and rice and fish and potato).

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[EHubbman]

I was going to run out tonight and get some cans as well as a different recipe of food. It’s hard finding kibble I feel comfortable feeding him, and I unfortunately don’t think I’ve got the budget to go raw. Bah.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Have you tried mixing canned food with his dry? This can usually pique the appetite of picky dogs. For a dog like him that looses interest in foods so quickly a rotation diet may be a good idea – if you bought smaller bags you could keep 2 or 3 different foods on hand and switch between every meal, maybe this would keep him interested.

[EHubbman]

I know! That’s why I wasn’t expecting him to actually eat it! Typically he just sort of gnaws on it and a few shavings come off here and there. I looked up from my book to find antler chips and tiny bits of marrow all over the footer of my bed and he was just happily chewing away! He’s a great chewer with his food and treats, so i wasn’t worried about that, but I just was like “whoaaa calcium buddy” and just gave him something else to chew on.

Thanks so much for the great info. I think we’ll hold off on antlers for now.

I’m trying to find a food that he’ll eat. He was on TOTW and slowly just stopped eating it.
A friend noted that he’ll eat when he’s hungry, so I left him with his food while I was at work, and in a day and a half he had only eaten 1/4 c of food, even with coaxing. He’d eat anything else I gave him, had no change in stool, and wasn’t vomiting, just wouldn’t eat. So I got a few different sample bags to switch him over, so he picked out all the new food (NV Instinct – Rabbit) and left all the TOTW in the bowl. He was OBSESSED with the NV for about a day, now he’s doing the same thing he did with the TOTW. Any help or ideas?

His activity level is the same, he’s drinking lots of water, his stools are normal with nothing odd in them, he’s pottying fine, he’s not vomiting, his ears are clear and his eyes are a little gunky (have been since I got him), but it’s just regular eye boogies, no off color discharge. He’s growing quickly and I’m just getting concerned as I want to get him all the calories and nutrition he needs.

EDIT: we went to the vet on Monday for puppy checkup (he was still eating regularly so I didn’t think to note it, just thought he didn’t like the TOTW) and his fecal came back just fine, as did his physical.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by EHubbman.

[Sully’sMom]

You’re welcome! In general, if you’re buying bags of dog food regularly, I find http://www.chewy.com to be less expensive than PetFlow, but I like PetFlow for the odd items. We got a box delivered yesterday with some trial sizes!

[acs379]

Hey Hound Dog Mom,

As always, thank you SO much for all the information! I can’t tell you how much your responses have helped, and I feel much more prepared now. I went to a local store yesterday that sells only top brands and knew exactly what I was looking for. I got a few sample bags of The Honest Kitchen and they’re ordering me samples of Orijen and Nature’s Variety Instinct as well. They also sell the canned green tripe and a variety of freeze-fried/dehydrated foods so I think I’ll be good to go! Again, if I haven’t said it enough already, a million thanks!

Also, thank you Sully’s Mom for the tip on the sample bags at Pet Flow! I was checking out their site because they seem to have pretty good prices and ship for free over $49. I’ll definitely look for the sample sizes!

[theBCnut]

I buy 25 lbs bags. I go through about 50 lbs a month, more in the winter, so a bag will never be open for more than 2 months. We’re under a/c at all times, but even so, I’m fixing to go down to 3 bags at a time instead of 4 for the summer. I take a weeks worth of food out of the bag and roll the top down tight and clip it to keep air flow to a minimum. I also keep an eye out on the Brothers site for when they are selling 5 five lbs bags for the same price as a 25 lbs bag and take advantage of that.

[theBCnut]

Hi Sully’s Mom

A year ago, I wasn’t rotating foods either. I had a dog with a sensitive stomach and changing foods always upset everything with her. I had another that was super picky, only eating about every third meal. When I started rotating, I started by adding canned or fresh toppers, just 20% or less of each meal. I would use the same topper for a few days then change it. That got my picky dog eating some better and it got my sensitive dog read for a food change. It always took a month to change foods completely with the sensitive dog, but I committed to doing it. As soon as I got her used to one food, I started the transition to the next. It took about 3 transitions before I realized that she could transition faster without stomach upset, so I started transitioning every 2 weeks. Now she gets a different food every meal, and I also feed some raw with never an upset stomach. And my picky dog is excited to eat, never misses a meal, and always licks his bowl clean. So when I say I had a dog with a sensitive stomach and I had a picky dog, it’s because they aren’t either of those things anymore. I have four different kibbles open at any given time, but with 3 athletic dogs I go through them pretty fast. And I feed a wide variety of raw proteins.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

To get an avatar go to gravatar(dot)com.

Many people have different methods of rotational feeding. Some switch foods a few times a year, some switch after every bag, some have multiple foods at one time and switch with every meal and others stick with the same food and only rotate toppers (I personally don’t feel the rotating toppers only is the best method).

When I used to feed kibble I got a new brand with a different protein source after each bag and I always had a variety of canned and fresh food toppers on hand and rotated toppers daily. So for example my dog would get a lamb based kibble made by Brand X and after that bag was gone I’d get a chicken based kibble from Brand Y, etc. – all the while rotating canned toppers daily. Now that my dogs eat a homemade raw diet I’m able to feed them something completely different at each meal.

You really can rotate as often as you want – there’s no such thing as too much variety. Get a rotation plan going that works works for you and your dog. You could mix the trial bags you got in with the kibble you’re currently feeding or few a few meals of only the trial food until the bag is gone. Initially you may need to so slow transitions to get your dog accustomed to variety, however after a few switches you should be able to go from food to food without doing a gradual transition. I generally recommend, at the very least, having three go to foods (preferably from different manufacturers and with different protein sources).

[Sully’sMom]

So I’ve seen this touched on, but need a little more in the way of specifics. In varying your dog’s food, which I’ve never done before, I’ve seen many say that they even rotate after every bag. Following some suggestions I’ve read here, I’ve gotten some samples from companies, and bought trial size bags of some premium foods (HINT* – petflow.com often offers trial size bags for a limited time of premium dog food for anywhere from $1 – $5 depending on the size). So I now have a 5lb bag of Nutrisca Chicken and Chickpea and 5lbs of Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost. Any suggestions on how best to incorporate a small quantity like these into a rotation?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.

First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.

I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.

Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[acs379]

Hound Dog Mom, thank you for being so thorough in your answer! It clears things up quite a bit; the article discussed briefly that the fat percentage should be at a lower level but did not go into specifics as for the health implications of excess fat. I just wanted to confirm that there was nothing about excess fat SPECIFICALLY that would cause health issues (i.e. like excess calcium). I’m thinking I can start with Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen, because they both have good nutritional stats, good ingredients from what I understand, and seem to be used with success by other owners who have posted. If you have any other suggestions for foods, please let me know! I was planning on supplementing with fresh food (i.e. hardboiled eggs, yogurt) and canned food (i.e. tripe) as well as digestive enzymes to help aid in the digestion of the dry food.

I do have a few follow-up questions. Here’s my situation: I’m getting a German Shepherd puppy in a few weeks (yay!). It’s coming from a well-known breeder, who made some nutritional suggestions based on years of experience with multiple vets. They suggest, “Puppies from 8 weeks to 1 year should be fed Science Diet Maintenance, fresh meat, yogurt, and boiled eggs.” However, Science Diet Maintenance has extremely LOW ratings on this site, as well as negative reviews from other posters on this site. This really concerns me, and I’m curious as to why they would make that particular suggestion.

In addition, they make suggestions for vitamins as well: 1,000 mg Vitamin C a day and a multi-vitamin and a B complex capsule once a day. In the research I did, the only supplements mentioned were calcium and Vitamin D. Do you see any issue with giving the suggested 3 vitamins?

Thanks so much for your help! You’ve provided so much valuable information and have also had to guide further research for me.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

This is a wonderful point to bring up! I’ll try to explain it as best I can.

The two main nutritional risks to large breed puppies are excess calcium consumption (or an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and excess energy consumption (too many calories leading to rapid weight gain).

The reason most formulas targeted towards large breed puppies and recommended for large breed puppies tend to be lower in fat has to do with the excess energy consumption risk factor. Protein and carbohydrates both have approximately 4 kcal. per gram while fat has over twice this much at about 9 kcal. per gram. So as you can see, fat is much more calorically dense than protein or carbohydrates and, as a result, foods that are higher in fat tend to be more calorically-dense as well. It is easier for a puppy (or any dog) to consume too much energy (calories) when eating a more calorically-dense food and this would ultimately result in undesired weight gain and, as we know, undesired weight gain in large and giant breed puppies can contribute to the development of orthopedic disease. This is why when feeding a more calorically-dense, or as some would say “rich”, food it is necessary to strictly control portions.

As you can see fat – per se – is not a risk factor for developmental orthopedic disease, excess calories are. It’s very possible to feed a puppy (or any dog) a food that is higher and fat and not have the dog gain unwanted pounds – this is done through portion control. So if, for example, a puppy is eating a food with 20% fat that has 500 kcal. per cup the puppy will obviously need less of this food (to compensate for the high caloric-density) than of a food with 12% fat and 350 kcal. per cup.

All of my puppies have eaten higher fat foods. Gertie ate a combination of The Honest Kitchen and grain-free canned foods until she was 8 months old with fat levels in excess of 20%. Mabel ate a homemade raw diet from the time she came home at 8 weeks with fat levels in the 30% – 40% range. I keep track of the calories my dogs are consuming, so my pups are fed the amount of calories that keeps them in optimal body condition. This means that when eating fattier more calorie-dense meals they get a smaller portion than when they’re eating leaner less calorie-dense meals.

In summary, it’s not the fat that contributes to developmental orthopedic disease it’s the excess calories that fat provides. As long as portion sizes are monitored and the pup isn’t allowed to gain weight too quickly fat levels won’t pose an issue.

I hope that helps clear things up!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[acs379]

Hello!

I just found this site today, and I’m really appreciative of all the helpful information posted on here (especially Hound Dog Mom!). I read a few of the articles you posted, including the one discussing nutritional risks to large-breed puppies. One thing I found in that article that I feel hasn’t been discussed in these forums–at least from what I can find–is the fat percentage. The article stated that the food chosen should have a fat percentage less than 15-16%. I was looking into the foods that are recommended frequently on this forum–especially Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen–and though they have great stats on calcium, calcium-phosphorous ratio, protein, and energy, their minimum fat percentages exceed the 15-16% recommended value. I would really appreciate any help/clarification!

[Saireah]

* Starbright:
You are most welcome! I wish you the best of luck!
And I’ve been trying to save money on treats and wanted something healthier for Quinn with her joints, so a few “healthy” suggestions are baby carrots, dehydrated fruit (we use our food dehydrator and make a bunch of apples and bananas when they’re getting a little soft for our taste or if we forget they were in the fridge drawer), and homemade treats (there’s some great peanut butter and pumpkin ones out there). Quinn loooooves apples (no seeds or core!) in any form and sometimes I sprinkle some cinnamon on them. They’re cheap and good for her. Try carrots for sure!
Also: we subscribe to a few monthly dog subscription boxes that gives us all of our treats — mainly because it feels like Christmas when I open up the boxes. 😉

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi gsdmommy89 –

I think the new formulation for Orijen Large Breed Puppy should be okay. For some reason Orijen’s website isn’t working for me right now but I believe the minimum and maximum put it at right around the 3.5 g./1,000 kcal. level (maybe slightly lower than 3.5 g. basing the calculation on the min and slightly more basing it on the max).

The Earthborn Primitive Natural formula is too high in calcium but I believe Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch are okay if you’d be interested in either of those formulas. The calorie content for the Earthborn Primitive Naturals is 3,800 kcal. per kg. of food or approximately 445 kcal. per cup.

The calcium levels in Nutrisca are too high: 1.7105% for the chicken formula, 2.2294% for the salmon formula and 2.1516% for the lamb formula.

I really like Nature’s Variety Instinct and they do have two formulas with appropriate calcium levels – the Rabbit Meal formula and the Limited Ingredient Turkey Meal formula.

All of the Merrick formulas are too high in calcium to the best of my knowledge. When I last emailed Merrick they had just reformulated their grain-free line and did not yet have the lab results back with the nutrient values but I was told the calcium levels were expected to be roughly the same as in the old formulas and all the values in the old formulas were around 2.0%.

I think Orijen would be a great food to try, I think it’s one of the better dry foods available. The best recommendation I could make would be to find several quality foods that are high in animal-based protein and rotate through them. It’s also a good idea to mix in canned or fresh foods if possible – this will boost the protein levels and provide some less processed food for your pup. In my opinion it’s very important that dogs get variety and have some fresh foods incorporated into their meals occasionally. Once your pup is around 8 months old and through the rapid growth phase, I wouldn’t worry so much about calcium but when the pup is young and growing rapidly it’s important. So some of the foods you mentioned (Nutrisca, Earthborn Primitive Naturals, Merrick, etc.) would be fine to try later on but I’d wait until the pup is at least 8 months old.

Good luck 🙂

[starbright26]

Hi Saireah,

You responded to my post about my pup with hip dysplasia and I truly want to thank you for the advice and encouragement.. It was extremely helpful. I certainly plan to help Sadie lose some weight being that even a few pounds seems to make a huge difference on a dog with HD. I’m looking into a food change of either Earthborn grain free or 4health grain free..as both of these seem to be highly recommended. Perhaps I can alternate them. I’ve also started supplimenting..

I have unfortunate issues with the exercise routines being that Sadie was feral and is being socialized+the deafness/vission issues-she has an extremely difficult time leaving the house even for small walks. We are in full swing rehab mode though so hopefully we can overcome these issues quickly to help rebuild her muscles. I want to try your air mattress technique though until we get further!

Because of her intensified sense of smell she is very food motivated.. this is is the main way we’ve been able to train and encourage her but Im weary of the treats we’ve been giving. I certainly want to watch her weight now. Do you have any good recommendations for healthy treats or those good for dogs with HD? Sorry if this doesnt really relate to this thread anymore but Im grateful to have any advice! Thanks again…

[gsdmommy89]

Hello Hound Dog Mom!

I recently posted a question in the Orijen dog food review. One of the persons that replied to my questions recommended this forum. I will be getting a German Shepherd puppy in the next few weeks and I was interested in the Orijen Large Breed puppy formula. I went on their website and the Calcium content for this formula was min/max 1.2%/1.5%. I also liked the Earthborn Holistic Primitive Naturals formula but their website states that the Calcium content for this formula was not less than 1.5% and also, the calorie content for this formula was 717 kilo-calories per cup. That’s a very high number, I think. I’ve also taken a look at Nature’s Variety Instinct in the Duck Meal and Turkey Meal formula, but the Calcium content for that was not less than 1.92%. I looked at the Wellness Core Puppy and their website states a Calcium content of no more than 1.5%. I saw in one of your responses that you fed Nutrisca. I didn’t find the Calcium content on their website, but what did you think about this food for your dogs? The las one I wanted to mention that I’ve been looking up is Merrick Grain Free in either Duck, Pork, or Beef. Merrick did not have their Calcium content on the website either but I did email them. Haven’t gotten a response yet.

I’d like to know what you would recommend for a German Shepherd puppy? I know it will all depend on his energy level, how big he is, etc. But something to start out with, what would you recommend. I’m really interested in the Orijen, and I’d like to stay away from plant protein boosted kibble if possible. Out of the foods I mentioned above, which would you think would be better for me to try? I’m sorry if it’s alot of questions. I just want to make sure I do things right, and make the right decision. Thank you so much for your time. Also, if you’d like to recommend something else besides the kibble mentioned above, I’m all ears

[gsdmommy89]

Hello Hound Dog Mom!

I recently posted a question in the Orijen dog food review. One of the persons that replied to my questions recommended this forum. I will be getting a German Shepherd puppy in the next few weeks and I was interested in the Orijen Large Breed puppy formula. I went on their website and the Calcium content for this formula was min/max 1.2%/1.5%. I also liked the Earthborn Holistic Primitive Naturals formula but their website states that the Calcium content for this formula was not less than 1.5% and also, the calorie content for this formula was 717 kilo-calories per cup. That’s a very high number, I think. I’ve also taken a look at Nature’s Variety Instinct in the Duck Meal and Turkey Meal formula, but the Calcium content for that was not less than 1.92%. I looked at the Wellness Core Puppy and their website states a Calcium content of no more than 1.5%. I saw in one of your responses that you fed Nutrisca. I didn’t find the Calcium content on their website, but what did you think about this food for your dogs? The las one I wanted to mention that I’ve been looking up is Merrick Grain Free in either Duck, Pork, or Beef. Merrick did not have their Calcium content on the website either but I did email them. Haven’t gotten a response yet.

I’d like to know what you would recommend for a German Shepherd puppy? I know it will all depend on his energy level, how big he is, etc. But something to start out with, what would you recommend. I’m really interested in the Orijen, and I’d like to stay away from plant protein boosted kibble if possible. Out of the foods I mentioned above, which would you think would be better for me to try? I’m sorry if it’s alot of questions. I just want to make sure I do things right, and make the right decision. Thank you so much for your time. Also, if you’d like to recommend something else besides the kibble mentiones above, Im all ears

[cinner00]

HDM,

Shoot. He’s only 12 weeks old. I couldn’t find the calcium ratio on the Victor, but saw it was 5 star and had many of the things you have discussed. Well I only bought a small bag. Back to the drawing board. I would like a really good dog food around the 50.00 dollar range for the 26lb bag. I don;t mind ordering if I have to. Is there anything you would suggest for his age and size. I have looked at so many foods I’m going crazy. Some of the foods I have seen people discussing are up to 63-70 dollars for the big bag.

[Saireah]

* InkedMarie:
Yes! Dog Food Chat – I’m “Grey.” 🙂

* Sully’s Mom:
I really just used the sample bags as a treat. I opened them up to see their reaction and fed them a small handful. The reaction between Dr. Tim’s and Earthborn was noticeable, though, and the sample from Dr. Tim’s was larger (5lbs). Earthborn were just little bags (but they did have coupons on each one!). What’s lovely about Earthborn is that they have the UPC for Trees program (see their web site). When I was originally considering Earthborn, I LOVED that idea. I still may feed Costal Catch if I decide to rotate as I’m thinking about, though. Another thing that turned me off a bit about Earthborn is the ash level – it’s a bit higher than Dr. Tim’s. Now, mind you, it’s not as if it automatically makes it a bad food – the pea protein and the ash are just factors that Dr. Tim’s was lower on or didn’t have and that’s how I made my decision between specifically selecting between both of them. Also, something funny — some people mentioned that Dr. Tim’s smells like roasted chicken, but I think it smells like the Iowa State Fair barnyard. 😉 Dr. Tim originally suggested Pursuit for my dog (the one with hip dysplasia), too – because the extra fatty acids in Pursuit would help (per his quote). However, I circled back with him half a year later and he did say that grain-free would suit perfectly fine now that she’s in better health in terms of her joints.

Kinesis GF has 32% protein, 18% fat,1.51% calcium, 415 cal/cup, and 6.9% ash.
Pursuit is grain inclusive and has 30% protein, 1.06% calcium, 20% fat, 450 cal/cup, and 6.5% ash.

They’re both a mainly chicken-based food, with Pursuit being more calories. However, the plus-side with grain-free is that you can feed less. Compare the feeding suggestions. Right there, I’d say that grain-free (in my personal opinion) is superior because 1) it’s grain-free, yay!, 2) you’re going to feed less, 3) they’ll produce less waste because of this, and 4) Kinesis has higher protein. I’m not incredibly knowledgeable about specifics of ingredients, but this is why I chose the grain-free line over the grain inclusive line. GF Kinesis looks to be roughly $5 more per 30lb bag than Pursuit, too – and Dr. Tim mentioned they are considering a 44lb bag of GF Kinesis (grain inclusive Kinesis has this option available) in the future.

I’m thinking that he might have mentioned Pursuit over the two specifically because your dog is fairly young and likely very active – so he was thinking he’d do quite well on Pursuit. By no means are either a “bad” food to choose – remember, there’s several dogs out there eating low quality food every day. My mother fed our family dogs a food that is a 2 star food for his entire life and he lived to be 12. I know we’re trying to do our best with what they food them, but no matter what – by choosing a 4 star or 5 star food – we are making a better choice.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet but I am currently in school working toward it – so hopefully in a few years.

I don’t believe there is a thread on the forums dedicated to the arsenic and rice issue but you could certainly start a thread if you want input from other posters. I really haven’t researched the issue much as neither myself or my dogs eat much rice aside from germinated rice a few times a month. However, I feel that as long as you’re rotating rice-inclusive foods with rice-free foods it probably wouldn’t be a big issue. Dr. Mike does have an article about arsenic in rice over on the review site.

I’ve fed both Nature’s Variety Instinct and Nutrisca and feel they’re both good foods. When I used to feed kibble Instinct was a staple in my dog’s rotation – it’s a great food.

NaturalK9Supplies.com and K9Cuisine.com usually have a big selection of trial-sized bags and free samples. Also, companies will often mail you samples if you ask. As stated previously, I don’t feed kibble for meals any longer, I do still order samples frequently though. I like to try products with my own dogs so I can make better recommendations. I usually layer kibble and canned pumpkin and freeze it to give to my dogs as a treat.

My assumption as to why Dr. Tim would recommend Pursuit over GF Kinesis is the calcium levels – the calcium in the GF Kinesis is a bit high for a large breed puppy.

Hope that helps! 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Good Morning Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet – but I’m back in school working towards it so hopefully in a few years!

Dr. Mike has an article about the arsenic issue with rice: dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-news/arsenic-discovered-in-rice/ . Feel free to start your own thread if you would like to get others’ opinions. I really haven’t researched the issue too much as I don’t eat much rice myself and my dogs rarely get rice (or any grains) aside from germinated rice a few times a month.

I’m a big Nature’s Variety Instinct fan. When I used to feed kibble to my oldest dog it was frequently in rotation. I’ve used Nutrisca as well and feel it’s a good food. My dogs eat raw as their main diet (as mentioned) however I do frequently order samples and trial-sized bags of kibble. Even though I don’t feed kibble for meals I like to keep in the know about the best brands so I can make good recommendations. For my dogs, they usually get kibble in a kong for an after dinner treat (I layer kibble and canned pumpkin and pop it in the freezer). Naturalk9supplies.com and k9cuisine.com usually offer a wide variety of free samples and sell small trial-sized bags. Also, most companies will send you samples if you call or email them and ask.

It’s possible that Dr. Tim could be recommending Pursuit over the Grain-Free Kinesis due to calcium levels. The calcium levels in the Grain-Free Kinesis formula are a bit high for a large breed puppy. Honestly, if you’re rotating through a variety of foods that do and do not contain rice I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the arsenic. I just wouldn’t feed a food with rice long term. I also feel Dr. Tim’s is a very trustworthy company so if they’re saying that their rice tests negative for high levels of arsenic I would tend to believe them (although I would still rotate brands).

[cinner00]

HDM,

Thank you for your advice. I ended up ordering a small bag of VICTOR GRAIN-FREE ACTIVE DOG & PUPPY 33/16 to try instead of the Wellness brand. You show a 5 star rating. I was wondering about the calcium level. It appears there is no calcium on their website or yours in the reviews. Will this be a good food for my Bernese Mt. mix.

Cinner00

[Sully’sMom]

Hope you’re not tired of these questions, but I’m enjoying “talking” with you about dog food. The mention of samples intrigued me: PetFlow often offers “trials” at great prices. I never considered them before because I never considered rotating foods before, but they are currently offering trial sizes of both Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost Grain Free and/or Nutrisca Chicken and Chickpea. Are you familiar with either/both? I noticed DFA has them both at 5 stars.

Secondly, if you were getting small sample sizes as above (this is for you too Saireah since you’re the one who mentioned samples!), how would you fit them into your feeding?

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you, Hound Dog Mom, very helpful!

Saireah, you too! I never thought about samples…will look into that. I’m now targeting 3 foods, all grain-free: Dr Tim’s, Merrick, and Earthborn. All seem to be at a reasonable price point for a quality food.

Hound Dog Mom, you seem extremely knowledgeable (are you a vet?) – is there another discussion thread on the forum somewhere about the arsenic/rice issue? Very interested…

[InkedMarie]

Saireah: glad you had the same experience with Dr. Tim’s as most people seem to! Btw, aren’t you the one I know from either Puppy & Dog Forums and/or Dog Food Chat? I post on both with the same name