[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

Yes – calcium needs to be converted to a dry matter basis for wet foods due to the high moisture content. Calculating calcium levels on a kcal. basis (versus percent of weight basis) is the most accurate way to evaluate the appropriateness of foods as it accounts for varying caloric densities between different foods. For a large breed puppy you’d want to feed a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less. I’ll walk you through the calculation. Let’s say the food comes in a standard 13.2 oz. can, has 400 kcal. per can and the company tells you there is 0.3% calcium on an as-fed basis.

1) Convert 13.2 oz. to grams (easier to perform calculations using grams): (13.2 oz.)(28 grams/1 oz.) = ~397 g.

2) Calculate how many grams of calcium are in the can of food: (397 g.)(0.003) = 1.19 g. calcium per can.

3) Calculate how many grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal.: (1.19 g. calcium per can)/(400 kcal. per can) = 0.00298 g. calcium per kcal. (0.00298 g. calcium per kcal.)(1,000 kcal.) = ~2.98 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.

————————————

If you wanted the calcium level on a percent basis:

1) 100% – % Moisture = % Dry Matter
2) [(As Fed Calcium %)/(% Dry Matter)] X 100%

BTW – I’d highly recommend Tripett as a canned topper for large breed puppies. It’s not a complete and balanced food as it’s green tripe only but it makes a great topper if you’re feeding a balanced kibble. Green tripe is high in protein and naturally has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but contains very low levels of each (only about 0.3% calcium on a dry matter basis if I recall correctly). The best part is dogs go nuts for it.

[pugmomsandy]

“I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements.”

There are naturally occurring probiotics in foods like kefir and yogurt and raw goat milk and tripe (which tripe also has enzymes). It really depends on how healthy or unhealthy your dog’s gut is. Has he eaten a variety of foods so that he produces a variety of natural gut flora? Or has he only eaten a few foods for a long period of time? Also yogurt usually only has a few strains of acidophilus. Some store bought probiotics have over 10 strains which I think is ideal. I have both Mercola and Dr Langers probiotics.

“How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet?”

You can give probiotics and/or digestive enzymes with meals as you are transitioning and even when he is completely on a raw diet. I still feed kibble and raw so I still use these products. You can transition him to a raw diet in various ways. You can slowly introduce raw (like frozen raw medallions or raw bites like Instinct brand has) a couple times a day as treats to see how he does or you can feed one meal of old food and the next meal of raw food. Or every 3rd meal of raw food. Depends on how his stools are! Also raw foods generally have more fat so you must take that into consideration.

“Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?”

A homemade raw diet is good for all breeds and ages (except maybe for breeds prone to pancreatitis) and he can be fed nothing but raw. You can freeze in small batches and pull out what you need for 2 to 3 days worth. For vacation, if you’re taking your dog you might be interested in freeze dried raw as it is shelf stable. Some examples are Stella and Chewy’s, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Vital Essentials, Nutrisca and Primal. I wouldn’t give him marrow bones in the beginning as they are just fat.

Yes, he is an inactive dog. After you start feeding, be sure to weigh and/or monitor “body condition score” so that he is an ideal “shape”. My dogs are heavy but are still of good body condition for their breed. There a several “body condition score” photos you can see online.

[yevincent]

Hi, I became a new dog lover today! I have a 3 months old lab, and he is doing great on his dry food. I am also looking for good wet food as topping. Because lab is a large breed, I would like to buy wet food with low calcium, but many wet foods don’t show how much calcium is. I just e-mail some companies, and they told me the data. BUT, what I get is something like 0.3%. I guess I should do some calculation on it? Most wet food has 75% water, so I should do: 0.3%/25%=1.2%. Am I doing right?
Thanks for any help!

[mah4angel]

SO. Thanks to HDM, it has come to my attention that making my own raw food for my Louie (10-pound Silky terrier) is actually more cost-effective than buying a high-quality kibble and is obviously much more healthy for my baby.
There are a lot of threads here, obviously, devoted to raw food recipes and diets. Currently my boy is on Earthborn Hollistic Primitive Natural. He’s not doing well on it. I had been feeding him a combination of that and the Earthborn Hollistic tubs (the lamb-based ones), but took those out to see if they were the cause of his upset. I think not. The tubs are expensive and I just have come to the conclusion that I’d rather he be on a raw diet. But, just like everything else, this task of changing his diet (yet again) is so daunting and I am so terrified and essentially stupid and ignorant and I really need you DFA Gods’ help!
I have heard varying opinions in the forums about adding probiotics and enzymes. Someone said there are natural probiotics and enzymes without having to add and pay for supplements. How/when do I do this with a raw diet? How do I do this on his current diet while I’m transitioning to a raw diet? How do I transition to a raw diet? Are there specific recipes for smaller breeds versus larger breeds, older versus younger dogs, etc.? Is it okay to feed him nothing but raw? Can I freeze/store what I’ve made if I’ll be on vacation?
My boy is essentially inactive. We go on walks every day and he gets very excited and runs around the house whether we’re coming home for work or from taking the trash out, but then he calms down and takes a nap. I heard 2% of his body weight for an inactive dog is what I should be feeding him. Is this correct? Does he fit the description of an inactive dog? What is the definition of an inactive dog?
There is so much misinformation out there! So many threads to read through, so much confusion! He’s my first dog and I want to do right by him, he deserves the best.
I always do these posts and I’m always very anxious about finding out how best to serve my canine baby because I know how important diet is, and I want him to have those perfect, firm stools and not feel lousy.
I guess I’m just being somewhat lazy to ask for a guide as to how to do this perfectly. I know it’s going to take some time and a lot of effort!

[InkedMarie]

For online places that usually have shipping: PetFlow.com, doggie food.com, wag.com, chewy.com

You can try petfooddirect.com as well but I’m not sure about shipping

[theBCnut]

It baaaccckk!!

[supercoop]

Marty keep in mind that diet should also be based on caloric needs. I have an eight yr. old 145 lb.
Anatolian Shep. who at this point in his life thinks rolling over is a lotta effort as compared to a 11
month old rare breed Tornjak that likes to run anywhere from a mile or two once or twice a day.
I feed the lazy old big guy a lot differently than my baby girl. Oh, oh yeah….the old guy eats alot less
than she does and I vary their diets brand wise alot. Ie : tonite he’s getting fed Horizon Pulsar with
Assorted fresh veggies and she’s getting fed human grade canned sardines, vitamin supplements fresh
veggies and venison tripe. Maybe tomorrow we’ll do Wellness Grain Free mixed with some Orijen and
Jasmine Rice. They’re stools are consistently the way they should be and both of them are in great health. Like people they need dietary diversity and with so much great stuff out there to choose from
along with free delivery, you can’t do wrong

[Hound Dog Mom]

Looks like response #2 disappeared as well. I guess I’ll have to email Dr. Mike to see if they wound up in the junk folder. Grr..only happens to responses I put a lot of time into.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Response #2:

Hi marty0203 –

Calcium and phosphorus levels really only affect the joint health of large and giant breed dogs during the growth phase. By the time a large or giant breed dog reaches two years of age it is either dysplastic or not dysplastic. For all dogs, calcium and phosphorus levels should be in balance with one another (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is really only a concern for those making homemade food, balanced commercial foods will have a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

I strongly feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is best for most dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <20% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food I would search for one with no less than 30% protein.

I feel it’s important to feed a variety of foods. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched to a new brand at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding at least 3 quality foods (preferable different brands with different protein sources) and switching every so often. If you can mix in canned or fresh food occasionally this is great too and canned and fresh foods are much more species-appropriate than dry food. Patty had a wonderful suggestion with recommending you check out online retailers. I live in a small area with a limited selection of quality pet products as well and, for this reason, do the majority of my shopping online. In addition to the sites she suggested, some others you may want to check out are wag.com, doggiefood.com and naturalk9supplies.com.

Some supplements that promote joint health are glucosmaine, chondroitin, MSM, esterified fatty acids (such as cetyl myristoleate) and hyaluronic acid. Some who foods supplements that promote joint health are sea cucumber, green lipped mussel, eggshell membrane, shark cartilage and velvet antler. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, gullet and chicken feet) and naturally rich in joint health promoting compounds such as chondroitin. Turmeric, tart cherry, boswellia, yucca, white willow, bromelian and high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.) all help to manage pain and inflammation. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic issues, a basic glucosamine/chondroitin supplement would be fine for maintenance. If your dogs have any symptoms of pain and inflammation you may want to consider a combination of some of the joint health supplements listed in addition to one of the natural anti-inflammatories.

[Hound Dog Mom]

OMG I just posted this huge long detailed response and it disappeared…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Marty –

Calcium and phosphorus levels are really only a concern for joint health during the growth phase. Once large/giant breed dogs reach two years of age their joints are fully developed and at this point they’re either dysplastic or not dysplastic. Calcium and phosphorus levels obviously need to be in balance with each other (between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio of C:P) but this is true for all dogs, not just large/giant breeds, and isn’t a concern as long as you’re feeding a balanced commercial food (where balancing C:P ratios come into play are with homemade diets). I personally feel that a diet high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates is healthiest and most species-appropriate for healthy dogs. My three bloodhounds eat between 45% and 55% protein, 30% and 40% fat and <15% carbohydrates at each meal. If feeding a dry food, I would search for one with no less than 30% protein. I also would not limit yourself to only one brand – variety is important. I no longer feed dry dog food, but when I did I switched brands and protein sources at the end of every bag and I added different canned and/or fresh food toppers daily. I would recommend finding a minimum of three foods your dogs can eat (preferably different brands with different protein sources). Patty had a wonderful suggestion with online ordering if selection is limited where you live – some other sites that have a big selection and offer free shipping in addition to the two she posted are Wag.com, Doggiefood.com and NaturalK9Supplies.com. There are several supplements you can give your dogs that help to promote joint health and/or have anti-inflammatory properties. If your dogs don’t have any orthopedic conditions or arthritis a basic glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement would be fine to start off with. Some other supplements good for joint maintenance are hyaluronic acid and esterfied fatty acids (like cetyl myristoleate). Some whole food supplements that are beneficial for the joints are eggshell membrane, velvet elk antler, sea cucumber, green lipped mussel and shark cartilage. Raw meaty bones (especially those high in cartilage such as trachea, chicken feet and gullets) are very rich in naturally occurring chondroitin. For dogs experiencing pain/arthritis some natural anti-inflammatories include high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (up to 300 mg. per 10 lbs.), turmeric, boswellia, tart cherry, yucca, bromelian and white willow. Generally human supplements are cheaper and higher quality than supplements marketed to dogs, adjust the dosage accordingly (a good rule of thumb is a 25 lb. dog would get about 1/4 of the recommended human dose, 1/2 the human dose for a 50 lb. dog, 3/4 the human dose for a 75 lb. dog and full human dose for dogs >100 lbs.). Also – as you may already know – the most important factor to maintaining healthy joints and staving off arthritis in large and giant breed dogs is maintaining a healthy body weight, it’s very important that large/giant breeds don’t become overweight as this adds a lot of stress to the joints.

[Cyndi]

No problem! 🙂 Hope Gus is doing ok today! (& you too!)

[Hound Dog Mom]

Thanks Cyndi 🙂

[theBCnut]

There are a few places on line that you can order from and get free shipping. Look for Chewy dot com and Petflow dot com.

[marty0203]

It looks like my options in this sprawling metropolis are 1. Wellness Core and 2. Infinia. From DFA’s review and ratings the two look pretty comparable. Does anyone have advice either way on these two specific brands for my Adult English Mastiff and Adult Great Dane/Lab?

Thanks!

[Cyndi]

Your welcome! There is a very knowledgeable woman on here, Hound Dog Mom, who owns 3 large breed dogs, bloodhounds. So, most of the information is from her I believe. Hopefully you find what you’re looking for.

[marty0203]

Thanks Cyndi! I appreciate your help b/c most articles I’ve read up until this point only discuss puppies and I am in need of advice for adult dogs.

Thanks again!

[Cyndi]

This might help too

/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

& I’m sure if you have any other questions, the more knowledgeable people here would love to answer them… Good luck! 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Cyndi.

[Cyndi]

Found this for you, hope it helps. I think there were other topics somewhere in the forum on the same subject. I’ll post more links if I can find any more…

/forums/topic/large-breed-dog-food-help/

[marty0203]

I have recently adopted a 2-3 year old English mastiff and I currently have a 5 year old great dane/lab mix. Both dogs are over 100 lbs and I am currently looking for the best dry dog food to feed both of them. My head is spinning after trying to figure out how much calcium, phosphorus and other minerals are ideal for joint health, in addition to the correct amount of protein and fat. If anyone could give me a few suggestions, I would greatly appreciate your help. Also, if it helps, I live in Wyoming and sometimes the selection can be limited, which is why I need a few options. 🙂 Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yes, I’ve heard that too. I think that, generally speaking, smaller dogs require more calories per pound of body weight. However, this isn’t always the case (in fact, concerning my hounds I’ve found it to not be the case). Gertie eats 4-4.5% of her body weight daily in meat/organs/bone alone. In his old age Gus has slowed down on his eating, but as a young adult (2 – 4) he ate over 3,000 calories per day (generally 1.5 – 2X the recommended upper range on the kibble feeding charts). Some large/giant breeds are known for sluggish metabolisms (like Newfies and Saints) however others, like bloodhounds, are known for having very high energy requirements. I know that DieselJunki has been having issues keeping weight on Moose, so he should probably be fed at or above the recommended upper percentage recommended for his weight. Concerning both raw percentage guidelines and feeding charts for commercial foods, because I’ve always found myself typically needing to feed much more that what’s recommended I don’t pay too much attention to feeding recommendations. Feeding recommendations are useful as a starting point but not good for much more than that (imo). I much prefer calorie-counting as it’s accurate with any method of feeding (raw, kibble, etc.) and accounts for changes in energy density. If you know your dog needs 2,500 calories per day the dog will need 2,500 calories regardless of whether it’s eating a kibble or a high fat raw or a low fat raw, etc. It just doesn’t make sense to me to recommend that a dog eats a percentage of their body weight – some raw foods have as few as 30 kcal. per oz. while others have as much as 70 – how could a dog need the same amount of both foods?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[theBCnut]

I heard the same thing but it went on to say that most large breeds would be near the bottom of that scale and most small breeds would be at the top. My Border Collies were right in the middle.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi NiseyNorris –

If you head over to the large breed puppy topic area there’s a lot of information there about appropriate foods for large breed puppies (it’s located in the “Diet and Health Issues” forum) and even a list of grain-free foods that are appropraite. A fried of mine got a golden pup last summer and the pup did really well on the Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy formula – she tried Blue Buffalo Life Protection Large Breed Puppy first and it made the pup really sick. Even if the Wellness does work out though I’d recommend rotating in a least two or three other brands on occasion – it’s not healthy to feed the same food continuously. Look for a food with 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. or less (roughly 1.2% calcium or less – be sure to contact the company to obtain the actual calcium level, don’t base calculations off the minimum stated on the package). A food doesn’t need to state “large breed” on the bag, it just needs to meet AAFCO requirements for growth or all life stages and have appropriate calcium levels.

[NiseyNorris]

Hi everyone! I’m new to this forum but have been obsessing over dog food since we found a golden to adopt! Will be getting him in a few weeks! He’s currently eating Purina Puppy Chow (sigh). I got some Wellness Super5 large breed puppy to try, but also would like to have a few backups in case that one doesn’t agree with him. So far I’ve found 4health puppy from Tractor Supply and also have been looking at Blue Life Protection large breed puppy, but the “life bits” is kind of turning me off and I’ve seen some negative reviews on here. It seems like the life bits would be hard to keep in the proper ratio with the kibble pieces..anyway..if anyone has good suggestions for me I’d appreciate it. The Wellness was about $2 a lb and I really don’t want to spend more than that if I don’t have to for a good quality food. I do love the brand tho..my cat has done excellent on it for most of his life so far.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sctigergirl81 –

The above post was not inaccurate based on the most current and accepted research available on the topic or large and giant breed growth as it relates to nutrition. There is no correlation between protein levels and developmental orthopedic disease – this was actually proved in a study done on Great Danes that was published in the Journal of Nutrition. Unfortunately the link you posted contains a lot of inaccurate information that has is not backed by research – namely implying that protein affects growth and that large/giant breed puppies should not eat a food designated for growth or all life stages. I urge you to read the links posted at the beginning of this thread – all written by veterinarians, veterinary nutritionists or studies published in peer reviewed clinical nutrition journals. There’s a lot of inaccurate information floating around about proper nutrition for large and giant breed puppies so it’s crucial to do your research and rely only on reputable sources.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Call them. That’s how I got the actual calcium level for the CORE formula.

[Anonymous]

Wow, lots of info to sort through here. After some debate I had decided on the Wellness Core Puppy which is on the list floating around here. But when I was looking at the Wellness website I noticed the Super 5 Mix Large Breed Puppy which lists the calcium differently than the Core – not less than 1% as opposed to not more than 1.5%. Does anyone know the actual calcium level for their Large Breed Puppy? It seems odd to me that they would list the levels this way for a food specifically for large breed puppies if they really were on board with the whole controlled calcium?

[sctigergirl81]

I’m sorry, but the above post is inaccurate. Great Danes are giant breed, not large – and this may seem like a small discrepancy, but not when it comes to feeding a great dane puppy. I am a great dane owner myself, and it is paramount to feed the correct percentage to a great dane puppy or you will have huge health problems down the road, and perhaps very soon. The link below maps out exactly how you should feed a great dane. Hope this helps!

http://www.all-about-great-danes.com/feeding-great-danes.html

[hmurray]

HDM – What are your thoughts on Eagle Pack’s Large/Giant breed dry puppy food? Are the calcium and phosphorus levels appropriate for an english mastiff puppy or any other giant breed?

[Saireah]

Calcium for Primitive Natural is 1.5% per Earthborn representative.

I have samples coming from Dr. Tim’s (Kinesis grain-free) and from Earthborn (their grain-free line). Really excited to see which my dog’s prefer.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Saireah.

[Saireah]

Thank you SO much, HDM and Marie.

I actually contacted Dr. Tim’s last night through e-mail and already have a response. We briefly talked around Christmas, too. I agree — fantastic (and, more importantly, personable) customer service. What appeals to me the most is the price, too. He mentioned that Kinesis Grain Free would be fine for both of my dogs, as well. He’s sending me a 5lb sample of the grain-free at half price (which was very kind of him to offer to cut the price in half).

Earthborn grain-free is really intriguing, too! A better price than Fromm’s and it looks like there’s different grain-free flavors that I could switch between every other bag to spice up their meal a bit. Side-note: I LOVE that Earthborn plants a tree if you send in the UPC.

EARTHBORN GRAIN-FREE:
Primitive Naturals: 38% protein / Calcium: not listed on GA on official site? I sent them an e-mail.
Great Plains: 34% protein / Calcium: 1.50%
Coastal Catch: 32% protein / Calcium: 1.30%
Meadow Feast: 26% protein / Calcium: 1.20%
* Would likely not feed Meadow Feast due to protein level and rotate between Primitive Naturals, Great Plains, and Coastal Catch.

DR. TIM’S KINESIS GRAIN-FREE:
32% protein / Calcium: 1.51%
* If I were to feed Dr. Tim’s, I’d probably feel better about use wet food every now and again from my Pawalla box on top of it to add a bit of extra flavors whereas, with Earthborn, they’d be getting a different flavor rotation to keep things interesting.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease. You’re right about recalls, too — a primary factor is whether or not they were precautionary or if they sat on it until they had reports of dogs being ill. Big difference.

I’m so happy I posted here. The cost per feeding for us makes these two brands at the top of the list for me. My babies are worth all the money in the world to me, but it’s nice to use part of that money to pamper them with my subscription boxes and still feed a great quality food at a reasonable price. I like that brands such as these recognize that $65+ for a bag of food that’s less than 30lb is just… unreasonable for people with multiple pets in the household. I’d certainly be OK with that if I just had one dog… and not a dog that’s practically a horse. 😉

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi saireah –

Now that your pup is 8 months old I think it would be safe to be a bit more lenient on calcium levels – dogs can usually start regulating calcium absorption around this age. I think Dr. Tim’s would be a great choice – it’s a very high quality food and made by a reputable company. I have also found Dr. Tim’s to have excellent customer service. Although, I feel I should add that I personally feel “recall history” isn’t a very helpful metric when trying to determine the quality of a food or the risk of a future recall. Some of the most reputable companies in the industry (i.e. The Honest Kitchen) have had recalls, often times these recalls are precautionary. On the other hand, just because a company has never had a recall doesn’t mean they can’t have one tomorrow and some companies downplay and/or ignore issues with their foods just to avoid having a recall or remove products from shelves using terms such as “withdrawal” rather than recall (examples: the Chinese chicken jerky issue – there was obviously something wrong with these products however companies avoided recalling the products in spite of numerous deaths and illnesses, the current issues with Blue Buffalo and Nutro foods that are being ignored by the companies and Great Life’s product “withholding”). You need to know the company and know whether they can be trusted – if they’ve had a recall find out what the recall was for, whether it was precautionary (proactive) or whether the company waited until animals got sick before they recalled the product and whether or not the company is a repeat offender (i.e. Diamond – numerous recalls). With that said, some other “recall free” brands I’d feel comfortable recommending in addition to Dr. Tim’s are: Earthborn, Annamaet (as Marie suggested), Victor, Nature’s Logic, Artemis and NutriSource.

[InkedMarie]

I’m not HDM but I will suggest a few choices that fit your criteria: Dr Tim’s, Brothers Complete, Annamaet are the first that come to mind. Mind you, I know nothing about large breed puppies or calcium but those foods have had no recalls, they all have grain free and I believe all are all life stages. Dr Tim’s will be the cheapest of those three and do keep in mind, you get what you pay for. Not all of the time but when you have a company that has had no recalls and has a good amount of meat in it, that’s going to cost you.
If you have two big dogs and have to keep at a lower priced food, you may not get the higher quality.

[Saireah]

I was compelled to post in this thread again after I read Hound Dog Mom’s post on the grain-free Four Star Nutritionals page by Fromm: “I think Fromm is a good company but their food is way overpriced for what it is. A 26 lb. bag of the grain free is (depending on the variety) $65 – $70 at my feed store. No way would I pay $65 – $70 for 26 lbs.of food that only has 28% – 30% protein. IMO – there are much better options where you can actually get some meat for your money.”

Can you clarify what other options you personally find suitable? I value your opinion from this thread and have been considering switching my puppy/adult to Fromm’s 4 Star Nutritionals — but am dismayed by the downgraded rating save the salmon recipe which was due to was “due to a change in our minimum protein requirements to qualify for the 5-star category.” (Thanks Dr. Mike!)

Updated stats: I have one 8 month old lab/mastiff mix (64 pounds) and a 2 year old lab/viszla mix (43 pounds). Currently, they are on Fromm’s Large Breed Puppy Gold and Large Breed Adult Gold. I’d love to switch them to something that’s:

* Grain-free
* Suitable for all life stages
* Has not had recalls

I’ve been intrigued by BOGO Bowl as it’s an Iowa company, but it’s simply too much money despite it being for a wonderful cause. What I absolutely loved about the idea of Fromm’s grain-free line is that there’s tons of flavors to choose from and I could mix it up a bit, but the price tag is just not wonderful for a bag of food that’s less than 30lbs when you have TWO big dogs.

I was considering Dr. Tim’s (grain-free Kinesis), but I noticed that they’re not on your list likely due to the calcium (1.51%)? I’d love to find something that’s a 30lb+ bag of food for $50 – $55. I as intrigued by Dr. Tim’s because both the grain inclusive and grain-free are 5 stars on DFA. Now that he’s passed 8 months, do you think I could switch him to Dr. Tim’s?

Would you mind sharing what you personally feed?

Also, as I’ve recently subscribed to Pawalla, they include wet foods in their boxes. Do you suggest adding wet foods to add some variety as a topping to dry every once in a while?

Thanks for your suggestions! 🙂

[bruno]

Hi Amy, you probably have dozens of foods to try, yet I would like you to check out another one: California Gold Small Dog Pet Food, from Pugzoo.com. You did not mention your breed. This was formulated for pugs by an extremely knowledgeable pug person, but it is good for all breeds, just a bit more expensive (quantity-wise) if you have a large breed. It is one of the few that is truly completely natural, no processing at all–just grains, vegetables, minerals and vitamins. There is an introductory offer for first-time customers and free shipping. They also have a digestive enzymes product and no recall. Thanks!

[harpersmom]

WW, i’m NOT an expert, but a friend had a St. Bernard with diet /digestion…. I told her about Probiotics & Enzymes and it helped a TON. Along with a few other changes, the dog is VERY healthy , now. I’m NOT a science diet fan, BTB. I think you can do better. I’m sure there’s a brand that meets your vet’s recommended nutrient ratios that is higher Quality. I like Wellness kibble a LOT, but i supplement it – meaning, i get the bagged kibble to make sure she gets all her vit/mins and basics, but not a huge amount. I give her homemade proteins( chicken, red meats, sometimes canned salmon)) and some whole grains/veg/fruits/cultured dairy, rotating the type of each as i go. Not a restrictive diet, fun to feed her, and she loves it. I don’t mix all the ingredients together, she chooses to eat raw egg first, then yoghurt, then meats ….

My friend fed a chicken/grain diet for a week with the probiotics and enzymes. She then added one ingredient a week, and stopped if the dog reacted poorly. This way, she knew just what causing the trouble… the probiotics/enzymes should be full spectrum…. Good luck…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Dr. Becker posted a new article on large and giant breed puppy nutrition today:

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/05/31/large-dog-feeding-mistakes.aspx

[Orwellian]

Hi Folks,
Can anyone recommend which dog food brands tend to be both healthy for dogs and less expensive than other healthy brands? In other words, which of the good brands are more affordable than others? My dog is a large breed mix (German Shepherd, Lab, etc.). She is 3 1/2 yrs old, healthy, happy, obedient, and very active. I would like to upgrade her diet from Dog Chow and Iams mixed with Alpo. Any advice about which of the better brands are less expensive than other better brands?
If this topic has been discussed elsewhere already, please refer me to that forum. Thanks.

[LckyNmbr12]

Thanks! I’ll look into those. He’s currently on Fromm’s large breed puppy dry food.

[Boxermom]

About your second question- Now Fresh Large Breed Puppy get 5 stars rating-

/dog-food-reviews/now-dog-food/

[echo07]

I have two 15 week old Great Danes. They are currently on Purina Select Large Breed Puppy only because breeder fed this. I would like to switch to Diamond Naturals Beef & Sweet Potato. I contacted the company & the calcium is 1.2% (as fed), 1.3% (dry matter). Protein 24.5% (as fed) 26.8% (dry matter). I’m getting so confused. Can anyone p,ease give me any feedback on this brand of food. I’ve talked to several people & they recommend it for quality & price. Thanks

[InkedMarie]

Good post HDM. Thats what I do. I go in armed with my information and pretty much ignore anything about nutrition. A couple prior vets we had would push what they sold; I never bought it. One recommended a Purina vet diet, dental one, after dentals. When I asked what was about the food that was so good for teeth, she had no answer.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi wallyworld –

It sounds like you’re in a very tough situation, sorry to hear this. 🙁

I’ve been in a similar situation with my vet. She knows next to nothing and is a Science Diet/Purina pusher, however my family has brought animals to her for nearly 20 years and she’s never steered us wrong in any non-nutritional area. You just need to stick to your guns and go in armed with information from veterinarians and nutritionists that are actually knowledgeable out nutrition. Let her know you’ve done your research and that you respect her opinion but you don’t appreciate her pushing low quality foods on you. The majority of vets typically don’t know a whole lot about nutrition. I’m not saying that no vets are knowledgeable about nutrition, however a vet trying to tell you what you should feed your dog would be the equivalent of your general practitioner trying to give you specialized nutritional advice. Your general practitioner may know a few things about nutrition but if you really need advice you you go to a nutritionist or dietician. Bring in copies of the articles I’ve linked to – Jennifer Larsen wrote one of the articles and she is a diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (I highly doubt your vet has any such qualifications to counter the claim of a veterinary nutritionist). It may not change anything and ultimately you have to do what you’re comfortable with and what you think is in the best interest of your dog. If you don’t believe Science Diet is in your dog’s best interest and you don’t feel comfortable feeding it let your vet know. If you’d rather follow your vet’s advice, then by all means feed Science Diet. Another option would be seeking out a nutritional consultant online – some will give phone consultations and customized menus.

Also – were the issues due to the treats or to the food?

[wallyworld]

After switching to Zignature dog food I thought I’d found the end to my dogs digestion problems. No more issues except for the frequent larger poops which I assume is credited t the higher fiber content. I then fed my doodle treats and we realized he is probably intolerant to potatoes, he then had another diarrhea and throw up episode. He was also having urinary issues. So off to the vet we went. Vet said the tests came back showing WAY too much protein in his diet. She said I was doing more harm than good. She said high calories and protein will cause issues. And denoted my argument about calcium levels. I debated with her back and forth on food and nutrition issues. She said I could rely on what I read online or go by a vet’s advice. Our vet has always been kind and honest about everything else. But she stood by Science Diet. She said she had visited many pet food manufacturers. She admitted the ingredients aren’t considered the best, but their research was top notch. She also has raised all 4 Mastiffs on Science Diet large breed puppy without issues. We debated for quite awhile on this. There are no other vets in my area that DON’T push SD so I’m not sure what my options are. If I go against the vets advice than any problems will be on me. I don’t know what to do. I can’t fight with my vet, I want my pup to be well taken care of. Any advice on how to deal with this situation? How do you tell the trained professional you don’t want to do what they say? Especially when the other vets you can go to would say the same? Ahhhhh help!

[GSDsForever]

Oh my stars! 180 pugs??? Wow.

Kudos to you and God bless you. That is beyond amazing. Thank you for having such a good heart.

I really would love to foster again, GSDs specifically since I know the breed so well and feel like that way I could do the most good. I haven’t been able to for a while. I will say though, I am such a sucker for animals in need, that I have even fostered a litter of kitties (when the largest no kill shelter was out of homes, the kill shelters overloaded with felines) — and not only am I highly allergic, but I don’t even particularly like cats. LOL.

[pruc]

I have a 11 month black lab. We had him on acanna large breed puppy food and switched him to orgeons. He was fine on the acanna but had the runs off orgeons. Now the place I get my food stopped selling acanna and I was forced to switch brands. I switched him to go! Daily defense but can’t find a review on it. Dogs is reacting well to this food. Can anyone advise if it’s a.decent kibble? Also what don’t u think of now large breed grain free?

http://www.petcurean.com/for-dogs/go/daily-defence-chicken

[GSDsForever]

angels,

What about Stella & Chewy’s? Excellent food. They make raw dehydrated medallions that are meat & bone based, with organic fruits, veggies, seeds and do not contain any of those ingredients you listed. In fact they don’t include any starches or grains period. This is great brand and dogs seem to really love the stuff. With a maltese it would be pretty affordable to feed, vs a medium or large breed dog. They’re easy to feed too, can be fed either with water or dry, shredded/broken into quarters/whole. Try the DuckDuckGoose — has duck, turkey, goose. No chicken.

Also, I highly recommend Timberwolf, have fed it for years. The Platinum Ocean Blue (fish based) has sweet potatoes (which you said are fine), but no peas, white potatoes, or grains. It has sweet potatoes and garbanzo beans (chickpeas). It’s nutrient dense, very high calorie; so you would be feeding very little especially to a tiny dog. I’d recommend introducing this food slowly over 1-2 weeks to ensure tolerance, as it is very rich and contains ingredients not commonly found in other foods and all at once.

Aside from these, rather than trying a whole bunch of commercial foods, I’d try first pinpointing what your dog CAN handle by feeding ONE protein and ONE carb. And I’d try to make sure that something is an actual allergy vs an intolerance or upset, since they are different. I’d try boiled turkey or cottage cheese and sweet potato OR oats (since you know your dog is okay with either). (By the way, many dogs are intolerant of lactose & milk, but fine with yogurt or cottage cheese.)

[GSDsForever]

Crazy4cats,

My family had one wonderful GSD, larger and deeper chested than average (or breed standard) despite being from an excellent show lines breeder who bred to the standard, die of bloat at 10 yrs old. Very calm, mellow, even tempered dog — just very large, deep chested.

It is heart breaking, because bloat and torsion can happen very quickly, with minimal signs distinguishing it and not easily recognized by the average pet owner, with precious little time to get the dog to the emergency vet to save its life, and to very otherwise happy, healthy dogs still in their prime. It is a HUGE health risk in GSDs, as with other large deep chested breeds. It is discussed endlessly among GSD people.

I agree with all that HoundDogMom advised and shared. Funny, it’s the same stuff I’m familiar with right down to the controversy over the raised bowls!

I’d add that my family & I, those in the GSD fancy and really “into” the breed here, no longer allow our dogs to eat full meals or drink large quantities of water within 2 hours of any type excitement, play, stress, or exercise. Our dogs swim constantly; so that has been one of the biggies for the 2 hour rule. Other serious excitement and hard running we don’t allow within 2 hrs, while in practice we might let it slide to closer to an hour for lesser activity/excitement.

For dogs that gulp food or water and/or get really excited around food, I also recommend bowls that have raised portions in them (like HoundDogMom said) that slow the dog down eating.

[GSDsForever]

Suresh,

The highest quality dog foods and best companies take great care not to include those nasty ingredients. The key is finding a company/brand you believe in and can trust.

Looking at a company’s history, verifying the quality of main ingredients/sourcing on the the label, quality control checks, etc. will help reassure you about the food you select. If they aren’t forthcoming with answers and sympathetic, eager to help (although with the really small companies this can take time to get back to you with answers), or are evasive & vague or deceptive, or you don’t like the answers, walk away & find another brand.

Re vegetarian diets, if they are *vegetarian* as opposed to vegan, it is possible for them to be every bit as high quality, digestible, nutrient rich and health promoting as meat based. Organic free range natural vegetarian fed eggs, organic yogurt with live cultures, cottage cheese are all very good primary protein sources for dogs. You can do this with homemade. I’ve not been very impressed with commercially prepared, generally vegan (not merely vegetarian), kibbles and canned foods and I am pretty familiar with the options out there. Other new ones are insanely expensive. So while it is theoretically possible to make a very good vegetarian commercial kibble, it doesn’t seem to be readily available.

Not vegetarian, but more acceptable to many vegetarians, in that it is not cruelly factory farmed, fed unnatural weird things, and one of the least contaminated flesh foods out there is sardines. All are wild, live near the bottom of the food chain and so are not contaminated like other larger & longer lived predator fish, super high Omega 3 brain food also great for skin & coat, perfectly balanced calcium-phosphorous & soft easily digestible bones. Sardines are probably one of the very best non-vegetarian foods a dog could eat, and, to my mind, waaaay superior to the more popular-with-humans chicken based food.

Vegan is doable in dogs but riskier and harder, needs a good supplement including things like B12, l-carnitine, taurine, Omega 3. The easy part is supplying the amino acids through an array of foods, as the body does not distinguish between the same amino acid from one food versus another. In terms of nutrients (not natural preferences or digestive system), dogs are more omnivorous vs obligate carnivores, cats. The hard part is that many plant foods are not easily digested by dogs, whose systems are not designed for them. Many beans and whole grains (non whole grains, like white rice, are easily digested but high sugar) are next to impossible for dogs to digest, no matter how well cooked & prepared. Some breeds, like GSDs, are even less capable as a group of digesting than other breeds. Unlike whole soybeans, tofu IS very digestible; many dogs like it; it’s very versatile in how it can be prepared; and it offers various health benefits. It is healing to the stomach lining, for example. On the other hand, a prominent very balanced study of vegetarian fed pets showed that pets fed vegetarian diets without soy had much better health and longevity. From personal experience and knowledge of dogs eating vegetarian diets, lentils and black eyed peas seem to be more easily digested. It can be hard to supply enough calories and avoid too much fiber. Dogs can consume up to 50% fat in their diets in good health though, and vegetarian fats like organic virgin coconut oil are good for them & easily digested. Vegetarian diets, in humans and dogs, tend to be excessively high in Omega 6 fats which are pro-inflammatory and deficient in Omega 3.

Certain breeds like boxers and dobermans are at much greater health risk on a vegetarian or vegan diet, due to high breed susceptibility to deadly cardiomyopathy.

[theBCnut]

The way I understand it is that meat protein is a natural acidifier, so look for foods that are high in meat content. What some people do is add a half teaspoon of apple cider vinegar per cup of dog food, or give vit C or cranberry capsules. As long as your dog is full grown, I wouldn’t worry about large breed formula and if he isn’t full grown, you should know that a lot of large breed formulas are not actually appropriate for large breed puppies because they were not formulated according to the most up to date research.