[Shawna]

It’s important to give doxy whether doing the slow kill or the immitricide as it kills the wolbachia which is what causes havoc at die off. LOTS of vets and others are successfully using methods other than immitricide. For those that feel comfortable using it, do so. But for those that don’t, like myself, it is good to know that there are options. Here’s some of them.

Dr. Karen Becker – “As it turns out, low-dose ivermectin therapy in dogs with no sensitivity to the drug, in combination with the antibiotic doxycycline, can be an extremely effective, inexpensive option for treating heartworm infection.

The cost was about 50-75 percent cheaper than Immiticide and all four cases of infection cleared beautifully.

The only time I’ll consider using Immiticide in the future (once it becomes available), is when I have an ivermectin-sensitive patient.” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/11/22/cheaper-safer-therapy-for-heartworm.aspx

Dr. Marty Goldstein (vet to the rich and famous) uses herbs and food to clear heartworm. He also feels monthly heartworm preventatives are a leading cause of cancer in our pets. He discusses it in his book “The Nature of Animal Healing”.

Dr. Melissa Shelton is treating her heartworm infected rescued dog with Young Living essential oils.

Additionally, Dr. Shelton discusses a person she personally spoke with who cleared a SEVERE case of heartworm in her rescue senior pup using alternatives.. “She had taken the dog to the University to have an echocardiogram performed. The heartworm infection was so severe, that they recommended endoscopic removal of the worms from the heart — they gave the dog a very guarded prognosis, even with that procedure. No matter which treatment they chose – it was a very grim outlook for this little dog.

She decided to try a natural approach. What did she have to lose?…….

Not only did the little dog not die, but all of the heartworm died without major side effects. The dog is still alive today, and doing well.” This case was cured using essential oils. http://www.crowriveranimalhospital.com/pdf/15-2010%20Heartworm%20%28Dogs%29.pdf

Research has shown that garlic and ginger alcohol extract both kill heartworms. My guess is that garlic also kills the wolbachia bacteria.

I would never tell anyone to not use immitricide if they were more comfortable with that route. I am intelligent (at least I think I am) :), I’ve researched this topic thoroughly and I personally, without even a moments reservation, would use the slow kill method with my fur kids.

The heart is a muscle. IF a few heartworms did in fact do some damage to the heart, it is quite capable of repairing itself. But, to help things along, I would certain give Standard Process Cardiac Support while doing the slow kill method.

PS — remember Dave’s Hounds? He used the slow kill method with his senior rescue hound dog successfully.. I know quite a few people (including REALLY ill pets) that have recovered using slow kill method.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Shawna.

[pugmomsandy]

The heartworm fosters I get receive back to back injections. I’ve only had a very few who received doxy and two injections spaced out a month apart. For me, I’d chose immiticide over two months and doxy. Confinement hasn’t been an issue.

[weezerweeks]

Melissa I agree with you. My yorkie had heartworms and I just wanted them out of their. No way could I wait 5 years! The hardest part was the confinement for a month.

[Melissaandcrew]

LosulFirst, I very cleary indicated that I have not had a heartworm positive dog in years. I stated what I was familiar with. I made no claims of fact. The post was not addressed to you. It was a general opinion. That for ME I would and have gone with Immitricide. Obviously you STILL have a problem with me..too bad. You have been angry since I commented about honest kitchen food. Shrug. We are all entitled to post our opinions, and mine remains unchanged that the worms continue to cause damage every day they are present. You are welcome of course to disagree with my opinion ion but you are not entitled to attack me.

Edit.. here in NY slow kill is not considered to be the treatment of choice due to continuing damage and length of time. In NY it is ONLY used in 2 cases 1) dog is too ill or otherwise infirm and unlikely to survive Immitricide or 2) owner can not afford treatment. This may be different from state to state. Some vets will not do slow kill simply for economic reasons again due to continuing damage potential.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by Melissaandcrew.

[losul]

have limited time now, can’t get into much a discsussion, The 4x HW tickborne was considerable cheaper when included in the complete bloodwork package which is sent to an an outside lab, so rather thanm have them do the 4X inhouse and sending the rest out, I’m waiting day to find out all results tommorrow. The courier picks up today, and results should be ready tommorrow, he probably won’t call me until late. Per the vet, heart and lungs sound great, lungs sound clear. Condition appears excellent. He told me not change anything I was doing, barring any kind of problems and he is quite aware of his to activity’s. have more advantage multi now, but haven’t made an exact decision yet going forward, show know more tommorrow when vet calls with results. Dori, for Turbo, I’m not sure I could ever confidently use ivermectin again for preventative, whether it was all my fault, or whether it is really a resistant strain, I’ll never completely know, otherwise I’d likely be using it going forward, once negative test results. We still have bad mosquitos here. The swamp” land on the adjoining property still has yet too be fixed.

Aimee, I disagree on that. I had all W.E. to sit on this, and tone things down, and I did tone it down, as as much as I can get. Yes, she stated as being unsure about the exact average lifespan, but she stated those other sentences as fact, when in fact, it is FALSE, I would never do such a thing, and I will never try to wrongly influence someone, and especially with a matter important. In fact, I’m not trying to influence anyone period, that should be quite clear. Then her superfluous, unfounded last sentance as a kick in the teeth. Anyway it’s over, I can’t dwell anymore on it, or waste anymore time on it.

I have read a little about the antigen/antibody thing, especially in just the last few days. I meant to ask the vet about, and want too look into further. HJust a couple quick thoughts though, there is a lot of oppostion to making anything easy in the pharmaceutical world, especially with so much money involved. There are even Heartworm scary commercials about. Antigen tests have gotten more sensitive, not less. If it were completely true then how could you ever even tell for sure whether a dog ever were to became infected in the first place? Don’t know, Gotta go for now…..

[aimee]

Losal,

I didn’t read Mellissaandcrew’s comment as trying to be anything but informative. She did preface it by saying she has fallen behind on research.

Each person has to decide for themselves what is the best course of treatment. When faced with the decision there is no way to know what I’d actually do. Certainly with a new dog, one that hadn’t been on a good prevention program or any dog with any signs of heartworm disease, I’d use immiticide. I think if my dogs currently came up heartworm positive I would likely use Immiticide. They are active dogs and from what I’ve read the lung/artery damage is most evident in an active dog when undergoing “slow kill”. I wouldn’t want to exercise restrict, potentially for years, until the worms were gone.

But I could also see myself as reasoning that they have been on preventative, likely have a low worm burden and consider “slow kill”. Immiticide isn’t 100% and even after treatment it is still possible to have worms remain.

With slow kill I may fret more in regards to “are they really gone”? This can be a concern with any method of removal but I read that when using slow kill method dogs may revert to a negative antigen test but still be worm positive. This is because of antibody formation that ties up antigen. http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/symbiosis-parasitology-heartworm-recommendations-updated?rel=canonical

I hope to never be faced with having to make that decision, it would be heart wrenching. I do all I can do to prevent HWD by giving my dogs heartworm preventative once a month all year round.

Wishing only the best for you and Turbo.

[losul]

I think its pretty well established that the average natural lifespan of adult HW’s is about 5 or so years. “adult worms that may live for five to seven years in dogs.”- American Heartworm Society. Even devout opponents of using slow kill, usually say that it can take UP TOO 2 Years for the adults to die using ivermectin as a slow kill. UP TO 2 YEARS- I would ask, is is that the average lifespan of 5 to seven years? They can say it doesn’t kill HW’s if they want ( I call it slow killing them), but there IS evidence that it significantly shortens their lifespans, and evidence that they can be gone in much less time than 2 years. Yet above is an unsubstantiated, unreferenced claim that;

“it does nothing to kill the adults. Without Immitricide, the present adult worms will continue to cause damage to the heart and circulatory system until the natural expiration of its life cycle.”

Well here’s some more of my research.t;

Here’s an important study titled, “COMBINED IVERMECTIN AND DOXYCYCLINE TREATMENT has microfilaricidal and ADULTICIDAL activity against Dirofilaria immitis in experimentally infected dogs.” and the conclusion, “RESULTS INDICATE THAT THE COMBINATION OF THESE TWO DRUGS CAUSES WORM DEATH. This could have important implications for control of human and animal filarial infections.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433753

a third; “Reduction of adult worms was 20.3% for IVM, 8.7% for DOXY, 92.8% for IVM + DOXY + MEL, 100% for MEL, and 78.3% for IVM + DOXY.”
“Preliminary observations suggest that administration of DOXY+IVM for several months prior to (OR WITHOUT) MEL WILL ELIMINATE HW with less potential for severe thromboembolism than MEL alone.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18930598

To try to keep balanced, and not to be takenm lightly, a bit older and a negative study, warning of using ivermectin alone or ivermectin with praziquantal as a SOLE treatment too dogs with with clinical, radiographic or echocardiographic evidence of heartworm disease. Some of the dogs radiographs or electrocardiographs indicated increased evidence of disease during the study, The conclusion of that study- “Thus, monthly administration of IVM to dogs with CLINICAL, RADIOGRAPHIC or ECHOCARDIOGRAPHIC evidence of heartworm disease is ILL ADVISED and SUCH TREATMENT OF EVEN THE ASYMPTOMATIC DOG SHOULD BE DONE ONLY WITH MUCH CAUTION AND FREQUENT MONITORING BY THE VETERINARIAN”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15381305

Immiticide (melarsomine dihydrochloride) has les side effects and mortalities than the elder chemical. There hasn’t been shown immediate liver or kidney damage, but is STILL A VERY POTENT ARSENIC compound, I don’t believe anyone can say for certain what LT effects aor damages it could have. Immiticide “Melarsomine dihydrochloride is an organic arsenical chemotherapeutic agent.” Merial themselves state that immiticide has a low margin of safety. Plus, in their own clinical trials, 5.2% of dogs in stage 1 and stage 2 died following treatment. 18.2% of class 3 dogs died following treatment. In a further smaller trial, 33.33% of class 3 dogs died. Many of the mortalities and side effects a surely reduced much further with the use of powerful steroids. My vet would have given along with each of the series of 3 immiticide injections, 3 injections of dexamethasone, a powerful steroidal drug that can in itself have serious consequences, and tramadol for pain, with a strict confinement total of 60 days and three nights and 3 days hospitalization. That’s his protocol assuming there were no complications. These were hard but researched decisions for me too make, and I’m sure fro anyone else in these shoes. Again my dog is asymptomatic, shows no clinical signs, or pertinent radiographical signs of heartworm disease. He still does or did have a HW infection. I do my best to keep my dog healthy, did everything I could too best make decisions, and I’m not going top feel guilt for not subjecting him to (what I believe is needlessly in Turbo’s case ) to trauma and harsh, damaging, life threatening chemicals. The money for us was no factor. To make it clear, I believe in many cases, melarsomine SHOULD, be used, and in some, I understand why it is used, and also who sometimes it CAN’T be used.

I have hopes, but no expectations one way or the other for Turbo’s upcoming HW test results. The only expectation I have is that his complete exam, his CBC, and if need be, another xray, will continue to indicate good health. I had already made the determination some time ago that I was going to be able to rest in peace, no matter + or – reading, as long as Turbo remains healthy and free of heartworm disease and as ALL the evidence currently shows. I know I made the right choice for us. My vet wanted to wait for a full year for retesting, as he knows the worms need be gone for about 6 months for the antigens to be non detectible. That would mean the worms would have already had to have been gone already around 6 months ago, so about 5 months after starting A.P., not a very long time, especially since the moxidectin takes 3 to 4 applications to build up to full plasma potency.

If Melissa’s intent was was to inflict hurt, disturbance, dismay, guilt, or just to promote antagonism, then I guess I can give her the pleasure of knowing she had much of intended effect, but not guilt. I made an appointment for Turbo tommorrow, (soon to be today) a few weeks ahead of time, and he will get his HW re-test, blood work and exam.

I’m disturbed of the purpose of Melissas statement, and honestly I fail to find anything helpful or useful, in it. Instead, I find unsubstantied and inaccuracies. Unlike her, I extensively researched everything I could, and with the help of many others, to make important educated decisions, some of it documented throughout this thread. I’m sure my my research extended well beyond, and still do. I took this very seriously, still do, I’m never one to just throw damaging drugs and chemicals at anything without doing my own research rather than relying on a clinic vet’s words, my own personal and unsubstantied bias, or simple heresay.

Her first paragraph actually contradicts her second , (Could she actually think the slow kill method entails doing absolutely nothing, no monthly preventative?). That final sentence and her irrational conclusion is the one most superfluous and disturbing. What person or vet in their right mind would ever attempt, condone or allow continuing damage for 5 years? Seem’s as to me sensationalism at it’s best.

Glenna, i will continue trying to present the whole picture, the best I can, without any bias, or judgement. I think you probably already realized that before this post. Slow kill can absolutely has it’s risks, much of it depending on the health, and the degree of infection or disease, but so can the the immiticide, the immiticide particularly if you are not able to adhere too very strict confinement, as you already indicated you could not? It seemed you already had your mind made up on slow kill, but I would believe you still have then more time to still consider the alternative? Have your vet read the studies above, in particular the one about doxycycline w/preventative, it could be very be helpful in whichewver method. Xrays/bloodwork/ can also certainly help on any further determination if not already done.

I should have the HW test results later today. The other bloodwork then send to an outside lab so probably will not have it for a couple more days…

[crazy4cats]

Sounds good, Melissa. One of my dogs has had a couple of allergic reactions and the Ivermectin scares me with him. Heartworms are pretty much unheard of in my area and most people do not use any type of protection. But, apparently, that is starting to change. I’ll look in to the “new” product.

On another note, is there any type of oral flea preventative that you do recommend? My sister’s dog is still covered. We are having an extremely warm winter for even the Pacific Northwest. They are calling it the Pineapple Express, LOL! I only live a few miles away and my dogs are outside a lot more than hers and we haven’t had an issue. I think she needs to change his food, but she doesn’t listen. He also has frequent ear infections. But, anyway, she has been using topical meds and they are not working. I’m thinking that maybe she should resort to an oral pill to help him out, since she is not willing to do the other more natural methods.

[Melissaandcrew]

BcNut. Yes it does whips! I love it for that reason.

Weezer. . Some breeds of dogs can not have Ivermectin and there are populations of heartworm that are resistant.i have given it to over a 100 dogs per year, from the day it entered the market until when it was pulled and never had a reaction occur.

I have given it to the very young and the very old, dogs with major medical issues including epilepsy, and never a problem. I can not same the same for ivermectin.
.
As BcNut pointed out the tabs are small beef flavored compared to the giant chews that some of my dogs would not eat…to the point that I stopped buy g it and instead have been giving liquid ivermectin.

[theBCnut]

Heart, hooks, rounds. I don’t know if it covers whips. It’s milbemycin. I like it better than ivermectin, no known population of resistant heartworms and no breeds of dogs that can’t take it, that I know of. It’s the heartworm part of Trifexis, nothing added for fleas or other worms. And I could get it as a tablet, instead of those horrible huge “chewables.”

[weezerweeks]

BCnut tell me about interceptor. I use Heargard and nothing for fleas or ticks. Is this just for heartworms?

[Melissaandcrew]

I haven’t been around much lately, so not sure if this has been mentioned..but..

Novartis was bought out by Elanco, and they(Elanco) are bringing Interceptor back by spring. I refuse to use combo products-ie flea and heartworm combos-so this is great news. Just wanted to put it out there in case anyone else misses it.

[Melissaandcrew]

Its been a long time since we have had a dog with heartworm disease, and so I have fallen behind on research. However, if I recall, the average lifespan of an adult heartworm is about 5 yrs. The slow kill method kills the microfilaria and keeps the dog free of “new young worms’ but it does nothing to kill the adults. Without Immitricide, the present adult worms will continue to cause damage to the heart and circulatory system until the natural expiration of its life cycle. I would completely expect the dog to show positive until that last worm is dead on an antigen test.

By that same token, I would expect any of the monthly preventives to accomplish the same thing, over time, and of course with varying degrees of speed and success depending on the medication choice used.

Old treatment was “arsenic” based and is no longer considered the gold standard in heartworm treatment. The caparsolate used was nasty stuff. These days its Immitricide and is safer than the old school arsenic. For me and my dogs, unless there is a medical reason known ahead of time that would contradict the Immitricide treatment, it is what I have and would continue to go with. The thought of continuing damage for 5 years is not something that I personally could do.

[theBCnut]

Back when heartworm meds were daily, I gave a pill in peanut butter every day for years. Then I used liverwurst for a long time. Cream cheese works for my current bunch.

I wouldn’t use the Nature’s Logic for an elimination diet, too many different ingredients. Can you make a big batch of something and freeze portions so you don’t have to cook every day? Otherwise, I would go with an LID.

[pugmomsandy]

It freaks me out a little bit when a foster pug won’t eat, especially since it just had heartworm treatment. The first several days are worrisome. We”ll be sending positive thoughts your way. Hope it’s nothing major and he gets back to his old self.

[losul]

Glenna, I want to thank you for responding back also. This is still a learning experience for me. I understand your predicament, I know about the bomb-shelled feeling, but couldn’t imagine that happening on Christmas Eve, and then with 2 dogs i addition…. But it’s good too hear your dogs are asymptomatic for least.

I’m not sure the reason microfilariae were not detected in you dogs- whether the year round HWP was keeping them non-detectible, the infection was caught early and no worms had had reproduced, the worm load low, or whether there were only one sex of worms. I think the year round HWP probably kept them non detectible. When I had Turbo tested last February, he had not had any HWP in any form for several months already, the ivermectin is quick in, quick out. ( didn’t give year round, and my regimen were not good to say the least). He showed pos on 2 different antigen tests and on the microfilarae. The antigen levels showed low.

The disadvantage to the slow kill is that it very unpredictable when worms will die, MUCH less control, although they should die at a much slower rate than in a quick kill where there is large/sudden dieoffs.

Did the vet explain that with A.P. the takes something like 2 to 4 monthly applications before the plasma levels of moxidectin peak and level off? That brings up another question, did the vet prescribe the A.P. to be used at the same levels as would be for your dogs for prevention? For my dog it was the same applied as would be for prevention. My vet really hadn’t much prior experience using A.P. in the slow kill method, and really only some anecdotal words….. I hated to think of Turbo as a guinea pig, but given that there was a possibility of his worms being resistant to ivemectin, I felt I only really had 2 choices, the A.P. slow kill, and the arsenic/steroids/etc. fast kill. I feel i made the right decision for in our situation, and don’t think I would have changed much, even without knowing the upcoming results…

There used to be a fellow Daveshounds ( is that how it’s spelled?)on DFA reviews that rescued a hound that was already known to have HW’s I think. I don’t know the particulars, extnet. He went with a slow kill ivermectin method (more traditional, though still not approved or really advised) method. Didn’t see him about on DFA for a good while, but he came back very briefly many months ago, to report that his dog had then reported back neg for heartworm, and the dog had done very well and in great shape, I’m reasonably think he implied that he had been exercising and working out the dog throughout, but not entirely sure. I tried to reply back too him and ask more, I don’t think he saw it, and haven’t heard anything since. I’ve already been searching alittle for that post, no luck so far. I’m going to look more, when I finish this….., I think it was on the off topic board, and think I can search through my own replies….

I wish I could be of more assurance, I can’t and won’t say that by not restricting activity with a slow kill, that it’s not dangerous and without risk, sorry. I can’t even say what method, slow/fast would be best for YOU and YOUR dogs, I hope you understand….

Do check with the doxycycline. Many vets believe that killing the wolbachia it weakens the worms and also may cause a lesser, immune and inflammatory reaction when the worms die. My vet was going to use it even if we went with the fast kill.

I don’t know if you supplement with fish oil/fish/omega 3’s, could be a good thing in addition for ordinary cardiac health, also for anti-inflammatory qualities.

When you give your dogs A.P., I would definitely separate them for a good while. If one were to ingest orally from the others neck/shoulders, at least while wet, it can be extremely toxic.

I’m hoping to know more soon……

[Glenna S]

Losul – I am so glad you responded. When we got the results in December which was the dogs annual physical and blood work up, I “zoned out” when our Vet gave us the news – on Christmas Eve nonetheless. We gave Toby & Rex their Iverhart faithfully on the third of each month, year round, and our Vet was aware of this as I was in there every 3 months to pick up the six pack of Iverhart.

My husband heard her say “tether them on a 2 – 3 foot cable” and our vet is adamant on the activity restriction, this being her first in the Advantage Multi treatment. She has witnessed dogs dying from embolisms on the “arsenic” treatment because the owners didn’t follow strict restraint in a kennel. I think this is her reasoning for the tethering on the Advantage Multi treatment. She did give us the option of the “arsenic” treatment, even feeling 100% confident that Virbac would cover the treatment. Money is not an issue but the kenneling of two 90+ lbs. dogs is not feasible for us at least in the winter months.

We live in a rural area, and yes, in the Mississippi River Valley. We’re in southern Illinois, probably 5 miles or less as the crow flies from the river. There have been several cases of an ivermectin resistant strain in this area.

Although Toby & Rex tested positive for heartworms, they do not have the Microfilariae. Two blood tests were performed, one was sent to another lab for definite confirmation. They are in stage 1, no coughing or any other indication of infection.

I guess my still “zoned out” brain wants to know since this is a slow kill method, wouldn’t embolism problems be minimal, thus they could have some daily freedom to romp and play? We have an in-ground fence system which they were accustomed to so you can imagine their reactions to being restrained. You can tell that I do not like the idea of any animal being tethered – seems cruel and harsh punishment, especially for one year or whenever they test negative.

My vet didn’t mention doxycycline to kill the Wohlbachia. I am going to call her and ask her thoughts about this, as well as mention again, my concerns for them being tied up. I know what she will say in regards to that (smile). I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Please let me know the results of Turbo’s blood test – I certainly hope they are negative. My best wishes back to you.

[theBCnut]

There are funny rules for how they have to list ingredients and they may not be listing them all. Big pharma has really skewed the laws on this. You wouldn’t believe what I went through trying to figure out which heartworm prevention to give Micah due to his food intolerances. They can claim any number of things are proprietary and legally not disclose them as long as they aren’t the “active ingredients.”

[Dog_Obsessed]

Thanks Dori! Lily has never had tapeworms in the 6 months I’ve had her, but I don’t know about the first ~3 years of her life. I don’t know how common they are around here, but we did have a foster dog that once had them. I would give any Heartworm preventative year round here, because it gets below freezing maybe four nights a year or something. Never cold enough to stop the preventative. Our normal vet doesn’t carry Sentinel, but there is a 24 hour vet that Lily has been to a few times that said they can call in a prescription for it today.

Pre-post edit: Turns out the vet doesn’t have Sentinel Spectrum. The range for regular Sentinel is 2-10 pounds, so that is what we will be giving her. Thanks for all your help!

Edit: I looked up the inactive ingredients of Sentinel, figuring they were about the same as Sentinel Spectrum. However, the only inactive ingredient I could find was something called “Ferric Oxide Red.” What?

• This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by Dog_Obsessed.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Okay, so if possible I’m going to switch Lily onto Sentinel. I have a few questions about it:

1. Should I use Sentinel or Sentinel Spectrum? The only difference is that Sentinel Spectrum also prevents tapeworm. I don’t want to do any prevention I don’t need to, but is that worth it?

2. On this article on Dogaware.com: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjheartwormprevention.html#dosage
It suggests giving .05 mg of milbemycin oxime per pound of body weight to prevent Heartworm, also stating that the dosage is much higher to prevent intestinal worms. The size of Sentinel/Sentinel Spectrum that Lily would be getting, the 8.1-25lb size, contain 5.75 mg of milbemycin oxime, which is over 10 times than she needs to prevent Heartworm! Is that okay? Should I give the one for the lower size?(2-8lbs) Lily is 10 pounds, BTW.

If anyone could give me input on these questions, that would be great. Thanks!

[Akari_32]

Well if your dog tried to eat you every time you tried to put on or remove a harness, I’m sure you’d just leave the harness on too.

She has not been tested for heartworm, however even if she did have it, she’s 14 years old. The treatment would be too hard on her. It’s not that kind of cough anyways, I don’t think. Most of her coughing is reverse sneezing from getting herself worked up and stressed out over something. Since alleviating any pressure on her neck from the harness, her (self-imposed)-non-stress related coughing has greatly reduced. I think the growth in the two tumors on her neck were a good deal of the problem. She actually hasn’t coughed all day since putting this new one on.

There is a blood test yes. It costs almost as much as the dental does. Apparently, blood tests are made of gold.

[Shawna]

Hi Kim S,

Pugmomsandy sent me an email letting me know you might have some questions for me. Thanks Sandy!!

Nitrogen trapping has been very very useful in helping to keep Audrey feeling well. When her breath gets a bit funky or she seems depressed I give her Garden of Life Primal Defense probiotics and Fiber35 Sprinkle Fiber as the probiotic (both are products marketed for humans). I tried other “fermentable” fibers (like barley, apple pectin etc) but Sprinkle Fiber had the best results.

The product I absolutely MUST have for her however is Standard Process Canine Renal Support. She’s been on it for over seven years. I can explain why I feel so strongly about this product if you wish — kinda technical.

Some other things that I rotate in her diet are spirulina, chlorella, food grade activated charcoal, burdock root (another really good fermentable fiber (but she got tired of the strong taste)), milk thistle and more. I mix five or so super foods/supps with an equal amount of enzymes and sprinkle on most of her meals.

Turmeric would be very beneficial for dogs with kidney disease as well but sadly Audrey doesn’t tolerate it well.

Giving ultra clean (like RO) water is important too. Evian water is both clean and a good source of a specific kind of calcium called calcium bicarbonate. Mineral waters higher in calcium (and lower in sodium) have shown some benefits for kidney disease.

I would recommend raw to any that can feed it, gently home cooked if raw is not an option or canned if raw and home cooked are not options.

Absolutely no chemicals like flea/tick or heartworm meds and no vaccines (including rabies).

I’m not sure how much info you’re wanting so sorry if I went overboard. 🙂 There’s tons more I can tell you if interested (like keep oil soluble chlorophyll on hand in case of anemia).

[Dog_Obsessed]

Good point. It’s hard to find a preventative without all that stuff in it, I guess. I am looking at the Mercola flea and tick preventative instead of spot-on treatments. It says it also prevents mosquitoes, but I don’t want to mess around with Heartworm. I guess every pet owner just does what they can with what they have.

[Susan]

When you worm him again, get a different all wormer one with different ingredients to the one you used, I can only use Milbemax all the other all wormers make Patch sick & have diarrhoea 12 -24 hours after taken the tablet…Sentinel Spectrum has Milbemycin Oxime like Milbemax all wormer & Sentinel is for Worms, Heartworms & flea eggs & you give monthly & always give tablet or tasty chews on a full stomach, best at night with Dinner…
I’m going to ask vet if I can give Patch Sentinel that way he’ll be wormed, Heartwormed & fleas, at the moment Milbemax allwormer is just doing worms & heartworm but he never seems to have fleas, only hitch hikers that jump on his leg on our walks & he tell me so I kill the flea..

[theBCnut]

I don’t like feeding either of those to my dogs, but you would be hard pressed to find any heartworm prevention that didn’t have those or other ingredients just as bad. And that includes straight plain Ivermectin. At least it’s only one time a month or every 40-45 days.

[Kayla]

I had to cancel his appointment because we are going out of town and I didn’t realize we were leaving so soon! He will have another appointment at the Vet when we come back!

He had the Rabies shot on 7/15/14
Heartworm test was negative 7/15/14 ( It hasn’t even been a year since he had the test done…do I really need to order another test so soon?)
He has had Bordetella shot on 7/14/14 and 7/16/14
DHLP/PV on 7/15/14

2 lepto shots -7/15/14
DHPP Vaccine 4th- 7/14/14

When Dexter was at the Shelter, they gave him all of these. I didn’t adopted him until Aug. He is not due for shots until 7/15/15 and 7/14/15

When it comes to shots, I have no idea. I do know…that the Rabies shot…it’s the law he has to get them. I do know, that for boarding like doggy day care… He has to be updated on the Bordetella Vaccines.

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Kayla.
• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Kayla.

[Susan]

I’ve been reading about Sentinal spectrum tasty chews & it has the same ingredients as Mibemax all wormer that Patch can stomach & does well on when I worm him.. I’m looking for something that kills worms, heartworms & fleas prevention & Sentinel looks real good….Patch doesn’t have fleas only the odd hitch hiker that jumps on his leg on our walks, so maybe cause I use the Milbemax all wormer this has prevented any flea… Does anyone know much about Mibemax & Sentinal they both have the same ingredients….

[pugmomsandy]

I agree on getting baseline bloodwork and heartworm test done. I’m glad I have a vet that asks me what I want done at my appointments rather than list out everything that can be done!

[theBCnut]

If you live in an area where heartworms are prevalent, then yearly testing is really important. Having bloodwork done every once in a while is good so that if your dog is ever sick, the vet has a baseline for what is normal for your dog. Having the complete set of normal puppy shots is very important, and boostering at 1 year is important, but after that, you don’t have to have them repeated if you don’t want to. I do not do Bordetella at all. It’s like the common cold or maybe the flu. There are a huge number of different strains and the vaccine doesn’t cover all of them. Immune compromised dogs are the only ones that ever have issues with getting a bad case of Bordetella and the vaccine doesn’t work well on immune compromised dogs. The Lepto vaccine is only good for a few strains of Lepto and will not help if the Lepto strains common to your area are not the one covered by the vaccine. If your vet can tell you that the serovars in your area really are the ones covered by the vaccine, that is the only case where I would get that one.

[Bellalab]

Hi all. I am curious to know if anyone has ever come across a dog that cannot tolerate ANY digestive enzyme. I have a Lab/Bulldog mix. She is almost 2 years old and she has been quite a challenge since I adopted her. She came to me on Pedigree kibble. I wanted to get her off that ASAP and slowly introduced TOTW. She did okay for 5 months or so and then had a horrible bout of colitis. During this time, (after a vet visit and meds) I fed boiled chicken/rice and things improved until I starting adding the kibble back into the diet. With each increase of kibble, the stools became worse. I experimented with several brands of kibble – slowly introducing which ever one I was trying but after about the 1/2 cup mark, runny stools. I finally gave up and started cooking for her. I rotate chicken, beef, turkey. Vegetables include peas, carrots, green beans. I use a limited amount of carbs – pasta, barley, sweet potatoes and not much of this is given. So far I have tried Dr. Mercola’s products, Enzyme Miracle (and probiotic miracle), Animal Essential enzymes, and Digestive Enzyme/Probiotic by Pet Health and Nutrition Center. While on the any of these there have been stool issues especially the Enzyme Miracle. That led to another vet visit with bloody stools. She has been on the last item I listed for about a month and problems are starting again. If I keep her off the digestive enzymes she is fine. Right now as far as other supplements all she is getting is fish oil and calcium. And the last few weeks all she has done is itch and chew. Since stopping the enzymes she is finally getting better with that too. Why aren’t enzymes helping her? I just don’t get it. She also had nasty diarrhea when taking heartworm meds so I stopped those. She cannot tolerate flea medication – makes her extremely loopy. I love her to pieces – she is the sweetest dog and so smart. I just feel so bad that she is so sensitive to things. But digestive enzymes???????

[Kayla]

Today, I saw that Dexter needed a Heartworm test and also a Canine Wellness Blood Profile. How important is it to get these testing done? Is it necessary? He is around 1 years old and doesn’t appear sick or anything. I am just wondering because I never had taken a pet to the Vet before for check ups or regularly tests and shots that needed to be done?

Any thoughts? I have an appointment tomorrow but now I am wondering if it is really important to do it now or can it wait? :/

[Dog_Obsessed]

Okay, thanks. I will try Sentinel Spectrum for flea and Heartworm prevention. For ticks, are spray-on products any better then spot-on treatments?

[Dori]

Hi Dog Obsessed. Go on line and go to Sentinelpet.com When you’re there check on Sentinel Spectrum. On the left hand side of the page you’ll see a list of all the things it deals with. Click on each item one at a time and read up on them. The first one will be Heartworms, of course. Second one on the list is fleas and then so on and so on about the different worms. Let me know if you need more information.

[Dori]

Hi Susan. I use Sentinel Spectrum. It’s main selling point is as a Heartworm preventative. As added bonuses it also kills 5% of adult fleas. It kills flea larvae, hookworms, tapeworms, ring worms , round worms. I’ve been using Sentinel for years (I use the chewable tablets). They have recently (this year I believe) come out with Sentinel Spectrum (also a chewable or tablet you can hide in the food) which added the ability to kill one of the worms mentioned above. I switched to this one early this Summer. What I like about this version of Sentinel Spectrum is that there is more weight varieties. I use the one that is made for dogs that weigh between 2 and 8 lbs. All three of my dogs fall into those weight ranges so that they are not being over medicated with doses that have, until recently, been geared for a wider range of rates. I don’t use topical flea solutions like the ones that you put on their necks. Frontline, Advantage and stuff like that. It always worried me that the directions were to put on the upper part of their neck where they can’t lick it and then immediately wash your hands thoroughly even if you didn’t get anything on yourself. Little too frightening for me. Anyway, I’ve been using Sentinel with all my dogs for more years than I can remember and have never had an issue with it. None of my dogs have ever become ill, itchy, anything all on Sentinel. I don’t know if they sell it where you live but I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to get it from your vet. I always buy it from my veterinarian so that I don’t have to be afraid of a medication like that having expired or having been transported under bad conditions. I’m super careful about medications with the dogs and myself and husband. I don’t purchase things like that on the internet. That’s just me possibly being more concerned and cautious than necessary but that’s just me being me. I don’t have cats so I’m not sure whether they make a cat version. I’ll check into it for you and get back onto this post and let you know.

Susan I just did a quick Google search and they do make a Sentinel Spectrum version for cats. The manufacturer of Sentinel Spectrum for dogs and the cat version are made by Novartis. Just go to Novartis.com and type in Sentinel Spectrum.

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Dori.

[Naturella]

Hey, all! Been a long day for me, so here I am with an update and a response to each of you:

Bobby Dog, I know Sentinel Spectrum only kills flea eggs, not the adult fleas, but I thought, like Dori said, giving Bru a brushing and a bath fairly recently would have eliminated that issue? I mean, a stray flea could be there, which is why, as BCnut said, he could just be very sensitive to flea bites, which I think he has a history of, so this may be it, plus, like Dori suggested I may have scratched him too hard with the Furminator. I really need to be better with this thing and just do short sessions every 2 weeks or so instead of an intense one every 3-4 months… Maybe I will just start doing that, and keep it to one brushing per area. Quick, easy, gentle. I was just trying to not do it too often in the cold months so as to help him retain most of his undercoat as he may be cold, so I only was going to do one in the end of November and pick up when warm months come, as in probably in March-April. Maybe when I start brushing again, it could be every 2 weeks or so (that’s how often I do his nails too), and it won’t be terrible as it will be warm outside.

Tabitha, thank you for the info! I will certainly monitor Bruno, but so far he seems overall well internally – he had a checkup in September, all was well; he fares well on a rotational kibble diet with added canned/dehydrated/freeze-dried/air-dried foods and whole foods such as egg, sardines, coconut oil, yoghurt/kefir, RMBs. Stool is great, eating is great, I make sure he eats a lot of water with every meal (I feed his kibble and toppers with warm water as a soup), so that I try to increase his hydration. I also would try to use more natural remedies before I resort to medical (chemical) compounds in other stuff. I make my own shampoo of castille soap, coconut milk, and essential oils, and I, Brian, and Bruno use that, and I use the oil blend mentioned above for almost everything – body lotion, hair conditioning, dog coat conditioning, wound remedy, etc. Which is why I will definitely keep in mind the recommendations by Susan (thank you!) on the Malaseb shampoo and Cortisone cream, but I will hold off on them as long as I can to give a chance to the natural stuff to try and help. He hasn’t chewed at it today, and I was able to watch him all day. Spot looks fine, skin is ok, and there is no miraculous overnight hair re-growth, lol, but I am sure it will come back – the scrotum spot got all its hair back. 🙂

I will just watch him and play it by ear, and see how it goes. By no means will I let him suffer (if he displays any signs of it, like excessive chewing, redness, etc.), but for now, we may just be able to home-treat this. 🙂 I will certainly keep you posted.

Also, Susan, I am not Dori, but Sentinel is a tablet that prevents all worms: heartworm, hookworm, roundworm, tapeworm, whipworm, and controls flea populations by killing the eggs (not the adult fleas though). It works pretty well I think, and if they sell it in Australia, you can look into it, but I don’t think they make it for cats. http://sentinelpet.com/

[Judy M]

any vets I have been to will require a heartworm test before renewing the HW meds if you have a lapse in monthly treatment. , but if continually on the monthly med, they will renew it without the ktest (and additonal test charge), BUT the holistic vet I consulted recommended giving the HW every 45 days rather than once a month, to lessen the amount of toxiic med given. and she recommended natural methods for flea control and not spinosad (Comfortis) at all, cuz too toxic

[theBCnut]

Even if you get freezes, you still need to give heartworm prevention again one month after the last possible exposure. If you don’t get freezes, you are supposed to be able to watch the temp and stop giving when the temp is consistantly lower than whatever temp the larva need to develop. I can never remember what that temp is supposed to be, because whatever it is, we don’t stay cold enough long enough here. But the info is here on another heartworm med thread, if you want to search for it.

[InkedMarie]

I’m in NH. I give the last dose in October & start up again in May. This is what my holistic vet recommends. She does yearly heartworm testing.

One of my regular vets tells me I can test every other year.

[theBCnut]

Even if they get heartworm prevention year round, vets are supposed to test before renewing the prescription.

[theBCnut]

Heartworm medicine is a prescription drug and vets are NOT supposed to prescribe it to dogs that have not been heartworm tested within one year. If your dog is positive and they give you meds and your dog is one of the ones that has a reaction and dies, they would be liable because they didn’t test like they are required to do. They can also lose their license.

[aquariangt]

fwiw, I’m in Colorado and only heartworm during the summer, and did the same in Minnesota/Wisconsin. I’ve never had an issue

[jakes mom]

Just wondering your opinion on keeping a dog on hw meds year round. I live in Ohio so don’t need to keep him on it all year but he had a traumatic experience with his hw test last spring, took 3 techs and a muzzle to get a sample. I was thinking I’d spare him the bloodwork next year and just keep him on the meds. I know people in the south have to use meds all year but if I don’t need to, should I give him a break in the cold months?

[Susan]

Hi Tammy, I just walk into my vets or any vets & they sell a allwormer over the counter, I use Mibemax all wormer it also does heartworm, also you can ask the vet nurse about ur dog losing weight, I worm Patch every 4-6 months…

[Susan]

I dont know for sure but I think there was a post on DFA about using natural products to repel fleas instead of flea products, You could even post a post…..I dont use monthly heartworm prevention, only every 4 months when I worm Patch I use Milbemax all wormer & this worm pill covers Heartworm aswell, so if Patch was infected with Heartworm he should be covered on the Milbemax, it takes 6 months for a heartworm to mature…. I dont really live in a mosquitoes infested area, I was speaking to a vet nurse the other day when Patch was being admited into hospital for his Endoscope, she asked if he’s on a monthly heartwormer & I told her what I do & she said thats Ok cause most people use heartworm prevention there’s less chances of getting heartworm now, she said they are not seeing many dogs infected with heartworm anymore but I live Australia…. a mosquitoes that bites ur dog has to be carrying the parasite heartworm & bite your dog, I think if you have indoor dogs that sleep inside of a night, it would be rare for a infected mosquito to come along & bite my dog….if he did get infected he’d be covered when I worm him every 4 months……I hate using anything on my dog, he just looks at a pill & gets sick lol….

• This reply was modified 11 years ago by Susan.

[theBCnut]

Talk to your vet about heartworm prevention. My epilepsy dog had other problems too and we always knew he would not have a long life, so really didn’t worry about heartworms once he started seizuring, so it was a no brainer to take him off of them. If your vet really wants to keep him on the heartworm meds, get ivermectin sheep drench from Jefferspet.com and have your vet help you to figure out the right dose. That way you don’t have to have the flavoring and you can get the right dose for his actual weight rather than a wide weight range.

[theBCnut]

Now, I’m going to say something that sounds like the opposite of what others are telling you, but bear with me. NONE of those things caused the seizures. Epilepsy, diabetes, renal and/or liver failure, brain tumors, poisoning, these types of things cause seizures. Those other things only trigger seizures, but the underlying problem is already there.

Your dog need to be checked out to make sure the seizures are from epilepsy, because any other cause left untreated can kill your dog. If it is determined to be epilepsy, then chemical exposure, stress, and a number of other things can trigger the seizures. So as was mentioned, getting him off flea meds, heartworm meds, clearing out cleaning chemicals, fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, scented candles, air freshners, etc. can reduce or even eliminate the seizures, so it’s important to do as much of that sort of thing as possible, especially early on when you can see if it is making a difference. Cleaning up the diet is really important too. Go natural as much as possible.

[Naturella]

Hey, guys! So, I am dog-sitting the dog that belongs to the family for whom I also babysit. Her name is Snowy, a shitzu-Maltese looking mix, maybe Lhasa Apso mix, don’t know, but it is one of those fluffy ones. She is adorable, incredibly submissive to humans, but likes her personal space when it comes to dogs. She is okay with Bruno as she is around his size (if she were a bit fitter, she would probably weigh as much as him) and has met him before, but I was worried that my roommate’s dog would eat her, lol… They had met once before but both were leashed and Snowy doesn’t like having her butt sniffed, so she growled at Casey and Casey growled back and Casey being around 60lbs I was worried that they wouldn’t get along. But, I brought her in, and they were both free (unleashed), with me and Casey’s alpha (my roommate) around and after the initial sniffing and slight fussing they were fine around each other. Casey is now in her room (my roommate’s room), and Snowy and Bruno are hanging out between my room and my bathroom. Bruno is being a tad of a bully and every time Snowy lays down on her bed that I brought from their house, he goes over there and tries to rub his smell on it, thus pushing her out, lol. She acts like a grumpy old lady (albeit only 4 years old) and fusses and leaves.

Now, I am so excited because I have permission to bathe Snowy tomorrow and I can’t wait to because she’s a tad smelly and also because I can condition her hair with my blend of oils and she will be soft, shiny, and smell good! I will also wash her bed tomorrow so it matches her cleanliness.

I have a question though – I have been in charge of her menu (foods) and feeding so far, but today one of the daughters had put a ton of food in Snowy’s bowl, and like a good piggy, Snowy ate it all! She ate at least a day and a half’s worth of food! I am really thinking about a giving her a fast day tomorrow, with a small breakfast just because I will be feeding Bruno sardines (Saturday is Sardines day!) and I want to split the can between them. I was going to give her just 1/4 cup of kibble and the 1/2 can of sardines and call it a day for her. Do you all think that would be okay? I would do that to Bruno if he overate one day.

Also, Snowy’s owners said that recently she had begun drinking a lot more water. And she does drink a lot! Doesn’t seem to have trouble holing it in (no excessive urination that I can tell), but is drinking a lot of water not a sign of diabetes? Should her owners be concerned if she’s not also excessively urinating? Or, is she just trying to stay well-hydrated even though I have been trying to feed her “soups” (kibble with water and coconut oil) for dinner every workday (M-F) for a couple of weeks now. The owner said the water drinking started before I switched her over to good food though. Before she was on Kibbles ‘N’ Bits, Beneful, Pedigree, and the like. Now she’s been on Dogswell LiveFree, Wysong Nurture with Quail (now), and I plan to put her on Earthborn next and I am so excited! I will try to get 4 Earthborns on sale and alternate them with some Pure Balance and Victor or whatever other deals I can find, lol. I want to get this pup to be healthy!

I also don’t know if they use any preventative as far as heartworm and other parasites go. She does get her rabies shot every 3 years. They don’t use anything against fleas and she used to have them bad in the summer. Oh, and remember how I said I thought her bumps were gone? Yeah, no, they’re still there, I found them again, and they are pretty hard and don’t move around. Each is on each of her sides, at the end of her ribcage. I wonder what they may be…

[vfs]

Thanks everyone for all the great feedback, I`m certainly much more educated about this subject. Will most likely just give him the heartworm prevention between May-November. Tks again. 🙂

[aimee]

I’m very comfortable with the safety of heartworm preventatives. I give the preventative once a month and treat for at least 3 months past the last possible exposure. I do not use an extended duration of 45 days because in the original studies using heartgard dogs became heartworm positive when dosed at 45 days.

I extend out for at least three months beyond exposure because dogs given only one dose ( moxidectin was effective with one dose) after exposure became heartworm positive but when dosed for 3 consecutive months did not. I do not like heartworms and as I’m in a heartworm endemic area will not risk it.

[InkedMarie]

I live in NH, I give heartworm preventive every 45 days from May til October, sometimes November.