[Hildie V]

From what I have learned from a few books and sites I have read the guidelines for homemade food without using bones is this:

65% meat
10% organ
25% veggies

1 tsp of fresh ground eggshell per lb of food fed
Salmon oil daily
Vitamin e daily

I also add in a mineral and vitamin mix and a probiotic and digestive enzymes

If your dog doesn’t keep weight on with this you can increase the veggies to 40%, using mostly sweet potato or regular potato or a winter squash and use 10% organ and 50% meat

Yogurt isn’t enough of a calcium supplement, it balances itself but not the entire diet

You can also add fish a few times a week and eggs if they work for your dog

[Hildie V]

I bought a meat grinder and tried to get away with a cheaper $100 one

It sucked!! It was an Oster one, but I didn’t try bones in it. I have heard to grind bones you need the fancy $500 ones

For boneless meat I found the quickest and easiest way is a food processor. Way, way faster.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Hildie V.

[Dori]

I wouldn’t add any more food to his meals. Just feed the amounts that you normally would. He’s used to getting treats, bones, etc so that may be making the difference but I would still hold off and add them back into his diet slowly as you planned. Don’t rush anything especially when he starts with those cute puppy dog eyes and you’re tempted to give him treats. He’s been sick on and off for at least a couple of weeks if not a little longer even so his tummy needs a little more calming down inside.

[Hildie V]

Hi Susan they do sound alike 🙂

She does best on food I make myself. Also, NRG raw dehydrated, but unfortunately she’s developed a wheat allergy in these wheat germ in NRG so I can’t use anymore.

I’m going to try a ground turkey, beef liver, beef heart, broccoli, zucchini, carrots, and potato next. I supplement with eggshell calcium because I don’t feed her bones. I also give Simon oil, vitamin E, digestive enzymes, probiotic, and a multivitamin and mineral specifically designed for dogs by a holistic vet.

I would suppose just as in humans certain things trigger acid reflux but it can be different in every person and also in every dog. I suppose there’s also an underlying reason why acid reflex is there to start with which is what I really want to get to the bottom of. That is, assuming she actually does have acid reflux and this isn’t something to do with something else because no one seems to know 🙂

I think finding foods that work for the dog is specific to each dog and it’s trial and error. Kibble can be a lot harder for them to break down than fresh food. Fresh food is highly digestible, and usually easier to digest. I would not touch a vet prescribed food with a 10 foot pole… But that’s not saying it doesn’t work for some people and their dogs, is just disgusting to me 🙂

If you want to make your own homemade food but are scared that you might not do it right you can buy a cookbook called Hillary’s Complete and Balanced and you can buy her supplements to go with it and then follow her recipes for homemade food. Her cookbook is only available through veterinarian offices in Canada and off her website in the USA. My girl did great on her venison and potato limited ingredient diet for five months until I couldn’t find the venison anymore at an affordable price :-). That is when I switched her to NRG…

Nothing I have done is a fix for sure, my dog is still having problems, and I like reading about what other people do to try and help myself as well 🙂

[theBCnut]

What will he be eating for the other half of his meal?

When it’s something that big and you know they can’t eat it all in one meal, you let them have it for as long as it takes to eat the amount they should have, as long as it is under two hours, then rinse off, and refrigerate or freeze the uneaten portion, depending on whether you are feeding the rest the next day. You can make up a spray bottle of 2 oz of vinegar and 8 oz of water and spray the surface then rinse to kill some of the germs, if you want. If it is something that would take more than 2 sittings to finish, I would have the butcher cut it up, and since I’m at the butcher to start with, I might have the butcher cut it anyways. They have the saw that just zips right through the bones.

[theBCnut]

Too true. And if someone is absolutely not going to give raw bones or brush their dogs teeth, I would rather they give lousy ingredients as often as necessary, than have their dog suffer with bad teeth or undergo anesthesia on a yearly basis. So those things do have their place.

[theBCnut]

I have used doggie toothpastes, but my dog hated it. Then I tried baking soda, better but not great. Then I used just the gauze, that worked great. My current dogs do not get brushed and have no build up, so I don’t do any of those, just bones.

When I got Angel, she was 4 1/2 years old and had to get her teeth cleaned every year. My vet was her old owner, so she just took her to work and did them. She is 12 1/2 now and hasn’t needed her teeth done since I got her 8 years ago. Gideon is 3 1/2 and Micah is 2 1/2, neither has any build up at all

[Kristin C]

She’s 14 months. And you can see all of her ribs AND hip bones AND spine. We call her the anorexic teenager in our house 🙂 The vet says she is strong. I’m not sure what a decent size thigh muscle is for a dog but she’s a hell of a runner, seriously she’s gotta be a whippet. But I’d feel better if she filled out some. Should I feed her more? I read that skinny/or even chihuahua dogs expend more energy just trying to keep warm so I’m afraid it will get worse over the winter.

We have an almost 5 year old beagle/Aussie and she is so completely different, activity as well as coat, so this dog has been a challenge for us, albeit a welcome one since we have never been blessed with human kids.

[theBCnut]

How old is she? She sounds like she is still going through that teenage lean stage and you should probably let her stay on the thin side, but it’s hard to tell from your post how skinny she really is. If you see 3 or less ribs, her weight is fine, same with back bones. Maybe look at the muscling in her back legs. Does she have a decent sized thigh muscle? If she is actually too thin, her muscling will suffer. If she is in good muscle, she isn’t too thin.

[theBCnut]

I feed either one dog at a time in the yard or in their crates, so there is no chance of a fight over their precious bones. Watch your dog at least until you feel comfortable with his chewing style. My dogs clean off a rib and then lay there and chew it for quite some time, so there is definitely some cleaning going on after the meat is gone. With turkey necks, sometimes I cut them in half, sometimes I give the whole thing and adjust the next meal. They crunch down on them and break the bones very easily. They do seem to know the difference between types of bones, they don’t crunch down on the big ribs, they just gnaw them to break small pieces off the edges. Turkey neck bones are not big enough, even whole, to block up a full grown GSD, but they really are soft and easy for a dog to chew up. Even my 12 lb JRT doesn’t have and trouble with turkey necks.

[Kristin C]

Hi-I know this is a crapshoot, but does anyone have advice on how to get my dog to gain weight, gluten/grain free? The rescue we got her from says she is part chihuahua, but we were stumped on what other breed(s). She has webbed feet so we thought redbone coonhound, which is possible as she is from Tennessee. I do believe she is part whippet or greyhound though based upon her bone structure. You can see her bones-ribs and hips, and that’s been since the day we got her last December (2013). I fed her 3-4 times per day earlier this year and every time I think she’s putting on weight, she isn’t. She had some food sensitivity issues after we got her so she is currently 80-90% raw. I do add oatmeal or cottage cheese to her food when I can, and when it’s convenient. I thought after she turned 1 she might fill out but that’s not happening. The vet says she is strong, and yes she is very peppy, so maybe she’s burning off more than I am feeding her and I just need to give her more food? She gets 3-4% of her body weight, sometimes more. Any input will be greatly appreciated.

[Dog_Obsessed]

Hi everyone. I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to effectively brush a dog’s teeth. When I first adopted Lily, who is ~3, the vet said that there was some plaque on her teeth, not enough to need a professional cleaning, but that we should brush her teeth. Well, I decided to wait a week or two because she was new to our house. Then, I took the doggy toothbrush I had bought for her and put some TropiClean toothpaste on it. I put it near her mouth, and somehow expected her to open it. Not surprisingly, she didn’t. I then searched google for “how to brush a dog’s teeth” and I found something by the ASPCA about how to slowly acclimate them to having their teeth brushed with treats. I began to touch her teeth while she licked peanut butter off my hand, and then tried lifting her lips and giving her treats. Now, two months later, she has made a ton of progress, though i have not been able to really brush her teeth with a toothbrush. She will let me lift her lips for a few seconds and open her mouth for a split second as long as I am giving her treats, or let me rub toothpaste on her teeth. Sometimes she lets me touch the brush to her mouth. She is not a huge fan of any of this, but tolerates it. I also changed toothpaste, I now use CET poultry favored enzymatic toothpaste which she loves.

I give Lily “dental” Nylabones to chew, the flexible non-edible kind. These actually work for her, she chews them but doesn’t destroy them to much. I kind of doubt it helps that much though. She also sometimes gets edible chews, such as Himalayan chews. I know RMBs can help with teeth, but neither me nor the rest of my family is quite ready to use raw bones. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on her getting more accustomed to tooth brushing, because while she is making progress I am not sure if I will ever really be able to thoroughly clean her teeth. Thanks!

[Kristin C]

So I am giving the raw beef ribs a thumbs down. Yes, they gnaw off the meat and the bone is clean. The problem I had today is that both my girls didn’t want to give up the bone afterwards. I was running around the yard trying to get them to drop it. Even my youngest one grumbled at me, but they weren’t aggressive just playful and protective. Once I got them into the fenced area I took out one of their chicken dinners and they both came running inside. So they will be sleeping it off in the garage for a while:) And I will be sticking with consumable bones and treats! I feel like the ribs are more like the marrow bones where they could break a tooth, another reason I am only trying this once.

[Nancy C]

Oh no I am so sorry about the tooth! I guess there is truth in that marrow bone info. I hope it won’t create problems. My 11 yr old golden cracked off part of her tooth and I do not know how (have not fed bones at all) but she’s fine. HOpefully yours will be the same.

[Nancy C]

Kristin — I bought 3 turkey necks from HARE TODAY and they are in the freezer still. HOW exactly did you feed them? They look big. Hare Today says they are 1 1/2 pound each. According to the 2 -3% body weight my GSD can eat approx 2 pounds of raw a day. so it would seem to me that ONE neck would be a meal in that he eats two meals a day — but perhaps I should cut it in half?
Were your dogs able to chew it up easily? Did they eat it frozen? Did you feed it outside and just lay it down on the ground (as some say to do) ? I sound so stupid — I just have NO experience and I do not know of anyone around here who feeds “basic raw raw” (meaning raw pieces as in the wild – not “prepared commercial raw’ like Darwins, Primal etc). What I am scared of is choking and the possibility of biting off more bone than can go through the “tubing” in the body.
I think I have read that beef bones are comparatively hard whereas goat, lamb, duck, chicken are softer bones and that would infer easier to chew up. Thank you for what you can say.

[Kristin C]

Will do Nancy, I’ll post after they are done gnawing away. Also, thanks for the info but I no longer feed marrow bones. One of my girls did break a tooth and my older dog got aggressive with the younger dog even after the bones were picked clean. So this beef rib thing might be a one time thing if I see the slightest aggression.

[Nancy C]

Kristin, thank you! I am anything BUT an authority but my Fear has pointed me in the direction of getting info. For starters my RMBs are LONG too. Measuring the curved side they are 8 inches long from end to end which means they are really longer than that. My dog is 75 pounds w big jaws and teeth… however, I have just moved him in the last 2 weeks to raw and I have changed vets to a homeopath vet to whom I am adapting. My regular vet for 12 yrs is a fine clinician if the dog needs surgery (was #1 in her vet class) but as for holistic she is NOT there. She is the one who drew titers on my shepherd back in Sept, called to say parvo was negative and I needed to bring him in for REvaccination. The vaccine her animal hospital uses is a combo of parvo and distemper. She was willing to REvaccinate him for distemper even though his immunity for it (according to the titers) is very strong. THAT is when I found the homeopath who was willing to ONLY vaccinate for parvo. (Singles ARE available). That homeopath RE tested him for titers recently and sent the blood to the Univ of Col Vet Sch for lab work and the parvo was very strong. Go figure. Anyway, if there is trouble w this bone then I will have to make a decision betw WHICH VET and I do not want to do that!
Also – FYI from the NON EXPERT ME — According to my reading marrow bones are not recommended for dogs because they are from the load bearing bones (leg – femur) and dogs can easily break a tooth on those bec they are particularly hard. Dr. Tom Lonsdale DVM is a very respectable vet in Australia who has written two books worth seeing and one is titled RAW MEATY BONES. Can type that in and read more. He has a website. I think it is http://www.rawmeatybones.com. There is another website where his second book is ON LINE FOR FREE. It is RAWMEATYBONESMYTH.com (I think). Google that in and see if it comes up. Otherwise I will go find the exact title…. it gives a little info. Knuckle bones are also bad for tooth breaks.
Let me know how it goes this afternoon. I am thinking about giving mine today or tomorrow. I just gave the GSD his first BEEF last night, continued this morning. And I might wait till tomorrow just in case there is a probl so I can call the homeopath and not the Emergency Vet – they charge so much esp on weekends!
Good luck. Will wait to hear. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW is what happens AFTER the meat is all chewed off. !!! Thanks.

[Kristin C]

The beef ribs I have are the longer ones. I have a 35 lb and a 25 lb dog. Am going to try them this afternoon and see how it goes. They are pretty big bones so I’d like to think it will be like giving them marrow bones where they just eat the meat and the bone is recreational, not ingested.

[Nancy C]

BC Nut – What is the approx length of the beef short ribs? I have two beautiful long beef rib bones with LOTS Of meat. Getting nervous about my GSD trying to EAT it and then pieces getting stuck somewhere INSIDE HER. Your dog that eats almost ALL the long beef rib — how big is that dog? My GSD is 75 pounds and he has some TEETH! I’m still a little worried…. I relate to Kristin above and am just needing a little hand holding.

Thank you for whatever else you can say….

[theBCnut]

Lucky you!! Dogs need calcium in their diet, that’s what they were talking about with the egg shells. You can either feed consumable raw bones(which are great for teeth) or eggshells with each meal. For bones, they need to be 10-15% of the animal portion of the meal. For eggshells, it’s 2 shells for every pound of meat.

They also need organs. About 10% of the animal portion of their food should be organs. Half of that should be liver and the other half should be other secreting organs. Heart coulnts as muscle, but kidney, spleen, etc. count as organs.

They need a regular source of omega 3s. The salmon should cover that as long as it isn’t too overcooked. Or add an Omega 3 supplement, 100mg of DHA and EPA combined per 10 lbs of body weight daily.

They need vit E and D, zinc and selenium, manganese, and a whole food supplement would be good.

If you want an easier way to do it, they sell premixes for boneless meats. Look for The Honest Kitchen Preference, See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix, or Dr. Harvey’s Veg to Bowl fine ground.

[Sandi S]

I work in a large steak house and can get unlimited amounts of cooked beef. Filet mignon, NY strip, rib eye and prime rib. I wash them very well before use. I also get sweet potatoes. I know the cuts of meat all have different percentages of fat and protein and that is my biggest concern. Also what else do I need to add to make a complete daily balanced dog food. If I completely stop feeding dry dog food what is the best way to keep my dogs teeth healthy? She doesn’t get cooked bones, Should I give her raw bones? Also I read that she needs raw chicken and egg shells? occasionally I also give her chicken and salmon that I get at work I’m trying to keep this as simple as possible.I refuse to feed my dog cheap dog food and I really can’t afford the better dog food on the market. It is hard for me to throw it all this meat away! Thanks to anyone who can help 🙂

[Angie]

Hi Guys!

I looking for advice from some of you avid raw feeders. I have been feeding Big Country Raw dinners to my two pups for the last 4 months. I have a Samoyed that’s just under 2 years old and a Shih Poo who is almost 8. The samoyed is 65lbs and the Shih Poo is 16 lbs.

My Samoyed had Coccidia and Giardia as a puppy and he has been treated for it a few times and since then his digestive system haven’t been the same so we tried raw for him and it was almost a miracle. He has small solid poops to where I don’t have to bathe his butt every morning before work.

Anyways the main reason for this post is that.. is there anything I need to add to their diets? They are getting a rotation diet of Chicken, Turkey, Beef, Lamb, Breeder Blend, and Fish Dinner. Is there a supplement I need to add since they will most likely been on this diet for a while. I do give them chicken and Turkey Necks once a week and Bones to chew + Brush their teeth a few times a week.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Angie

http://www.bigcountryrawstore.com/Dinners-s/1818.htm

[theBCnut]

Bones have very little phos, but meat is the main source of phos. That’s why you have to have the right amount of bone for the amount of meat. Most bonemeal is considered to be contaminated, but I’m really not sure if it is more contaminated than other beef bones. The longer the animal lives before becoming food, the more likely it is to pick up heavy metals in its bones, and most sources of bone meal are cattle, which are at least 1 1/2 years old.

[Kristin C]

In the past, I have just let the eggshells dry on my counter and put them through the coffee grinder which worked fine. I have since read that bones provide phosphorous in addition to calcium so eggshells would not be enough. So bonemeal might be a better option?

[Kristin C]

Jan-I feed my girls raw meaty bones on the weekend and split a can of sardines between the 2 of them at the same time. I also split a can between the 2 girls mid-week as a snack. I prefer to feed whole food versus a daily “supplement”. Have you explored yeast overgrowth for the skin allergies?

[Judith M]

I would love to have a long lasting, chewy type treat for my large Borzoi, Mikko, that is healthy, helps keep his teeth clean & keeps him occupied & doesn’t cost an arm & leg. I don’t particularly like giving him rawhide, bully sticks, smoked bones, etc. But, he loves them & keeps him happy for extended periods of time. I am just very careful & keep an eye on him when he is chewing them. I would love a better suggestion.

[Akari_32]

Thanks for sharing! I have almost a whole bag I opened and never finished sitting on top of the fridge that I want to do something with lol Not sure if I’ll use it as a topper for Ginger, or if I’ll make treats with it.

As for the cat, I think he’s got another blockage. This cat is as bad as a puppy when it comes to chewing on things! Mom bought this cool portable camp fire thing, where its a log, with some holes cut into the top with starter and whatever in it, and since its a natural log, its got bark on the outside. Well, the cat has a paper and cardboard fetish and he has to eat anything papery, and I noticed a few days after mom bought the log that there are several large (like 3+ inch squares!) areas missing out of the bark. The dogs are locked up all day, and when we’re home, they’re under our feet, or sleeping on the couch. The cat is out and about in the house, and he’s just down right naughty, so I know who to blame when it comes to the missing bark.

Anyways, he’s not eating like his usual “starved” self, and when he does, he doesn’t eat much. He’s even turning down Friskies, which is just crazy. He’s been working on his current can (which is spiked with enough coconut oil to kill a horse, and some of the dogs liquid fish oil) for a good 24 hours. Todays food was supposed to be Wellness Beef and Chicken, but I’m not going to put down a $2 can of food for him to let sit all day (and he’s still willingly working on that can of Friskies). In fact, I’m not going to give it to him until he’s passed all that bark he’s eaten, and is eating his food properly again. I don’t want $4 worth of food to go to waste! He’s also spending a lot of time stretched out when laying down, and licking his tummy and “special place”. I think he’s about finished the can of food thats down, so I’m going to put down some fish oil in a bowl, and let him lick at it when he’s hungry tonight.

So far, no puking like last time, and fingers crossed it doesn’t get to that point. The bark is papery, so it should move out with some buttering up, and not actually completely block him like last time.

To end on a positive note, I had a helper while doing my homework tonight. Heres a picture of him eating my ($170) textbook *rolls eyes*

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/EEC881D8-3847-4DDC-8CCE-74467D7D41E2_zpshq9q1qjp.jpg

And him pretending to have no bones LOL

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/88A86A9F-431B-4F5E-A015-971B4694BA22_zpswf0pw4wc.jpg

[pugmomsandy]

Chicken backs have even more bone than leq quarters. I’d have to look that one up but to me, they’re almost like necks – very little meat. I’ve bought turkey backs from the store and they’re pretty much just bones. Without knowing more about the percentage of muscle and organ meat the butcher makes, I would still keep that relatively low. You might check out a commercial grinder or one you can find at a sporting/hunting store with at least 1/2 horsepower. They should be able to handle chicken parts without a problem. Large turkey necks and backs might be a problem. I use a 1hp grinder and I’ve ground 100 lbs in 15 minutes! It’s awesome! The packaging takes up the most time. Also, check out local restaurant supply stores. You should be able to purchase items by the case, 30 lbs or more at a time. The savings will add up quickly since you’re feeding big dogs and the grinder will pay for itself in a couple months. Oh…an extra freezer comes in handy too!

[Tanya C]

Thank you everyone for your comments. theBCnut I did not get my dogs from a breeder they are all rescues and up till now have been fed commercial prepared dry/wet dog food. I never even heard of Raw Dog Food until Chance came to us. Then I started researching and like I said above it is all so confusing one site contradicting the other etc.. so I appreciate any and all comments. I bought my meat straight from a butcher, it came pre-grounded. I was told that the 10lbs was a mixture of heart,brain which I understood to not be considered organ meats and then kidney, liver and spleen with I know are organ meats. I also know that tongues are included but wasn’t sure what they are considered. If I added lean ground beef to my recipe say 10-15 lbs would that balance it out better. I am making very large batches as I try to make at least a weeks worth at a time. My Danes range in size from 90-160 lbs so I have been feeding them approx 2% of there ideal body weight per day which is about 3.5 lbs if I worked it out properly, I feed them half in the morning and half in the evening. I will not add the extra egg shells next time and do what I normally do, add them to my garden instead. pugmomsandy the chicken I purchased was from my local grocery store and I ground it myself in a hand grinder at home. I believe I should have called them quarter chicken legs they were thighs with legs attached and bones still in. The next batch will be purchased from the butcher chicken backs with bone in pre-ground. I will look into those books as well, I have a tablet and an e-reader so I should be able to get them. Thank you all so much, I really do appreciate the comments !!! I’m so new at this and I find it confusing even though I did research. I’m still trying to figure out what meats are what hence the mistake with too much organ meats. I just want to make up for my past bad food mistakes and do what is best for my fur babies. Thank you !!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Tanya C.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Tanya C.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Tanya C.

[Akari_32]

That’s similar to what Ginger does. Only it’s much more exaggerated and she sucks her gut in so much that she’s all ribs and bones, and they last longer, like several seconds each time, and whole episode lasts for a minute or more. Hers seem stress related, though what set her off last night while she was eating, I couldn’t say. Just got too excited, or maybe inhaled some food or something. Either way, the whole situation bothers her. Could be her dementia that causes her to be bothered by it (confuses her, maybe?), or could actually be bothering her in some way.

I just took her out a little bit ago, and she squatted to pee, but I don’t think she actually did anything. Not sure if its a behavioral/dementia sort of thing (like the vet tech I’m shadowing thinks her excessive drinking is, based on the uninalisis not turning up anything) or if there’s something going on that couldn’t be picked up by the uninalisis. Something to tack on to my list of things to watch. Hopefully she was peeing and I’m just taking her out so much that she only went a little bit. God, I hope that doesn’t turn into anything serious >.<

[theBCnut]

Hi Aimee, I would never have given my Golden mix one of these because of his chewing style. He could crack a beef knee(and I don’t mean knee cap) in about 15 seconds. He didn’t gnaw, he crunched. My BC’s and my JRT scrape their teeth along the edges and gnaw on bones, but don’t chomp down on them.

Hi Dori, they don’t get enough off of them each day for me to worry at all about salt content, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. They are really hard!

[Dori]

I have never seen any bone or bone pieces in the food. I agree with cindy q on the issue of bones.

USA and anyone else interested. I just spoke to someone at Big Dog Natural. They air dry their food at 80 – 100 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours.

I decided that instead of guessing, I would just pick up the phone and call. My call was returned within 20 minutes. I have never once been given the run around with any question I have asked. They have been nothing but forthcoming with me. I choose to have the food in rotation with my three dogs everyone else can make up their own minds. As I have said often in the past…..these issues that are being questioned back and forth may very well not sit well with some if this is the ONLY food you are going to feed your dogs. Most of us on DFA rotate foods, supplements, within the brands and different brands. Anyway, my dogs love the food and they have absolutely no issues with the food. No diarrhea, gas, no constipation, no itchiness, no bad breath, no tear stains, no gurgling stomachs, their poops are exactly the way they should be for dogs that eat raw-small well formed not too hard don’t stick to the ground no smell whatsoever.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Dori.

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

You bring up a very interesting point.

I’ve never felt comfortable with the company and as such wouldn’t ever feed their diets. When the company reps posted on DFA I found their responses to my inquiries to be lacking in basic courtesy. As I recall, they would not disclose the calcium levels in their food and said something to the effect that a posted ratio was adequate information for anyone wanting information on the mineral levels in their foods. It made no sense really.

They had a statement on their site which included a reference. I couldn’t find that reference anyplace and asked for further information as to where I could find the original document. I found their response rude. As I recall they replied saying they posted all the information I’d need. I did eventually find what I think was the reference. As I remember it, BDN had the title words in a different order and the original document didn’t support their statement. I can no longer find the statement in question on their site.

I find their ingredient list disturbing. I don’t recognize the terms as being AAFCO compliant. As I have never purchased the food I don’t know if the ingredient panel on the actual product is the same as on their site. Perhaps someone who has this product can tell me what the label states.

I’m quite certain AAFCO forbids descriptors like “grade A” and “Wholesome” Furthermore, there is no such thing as grade A beef. Beef is graded as U.S.D.A. Prime, U.S.D.A. Choice, U.S.D.A. Select etc. Poultry is graded A, B, and C depending on the presence of broken bones and exposed muscle.

Their use of comma’s and parenthesis shows lack of attention to detail.
Wholesome air dried, Angus beef (grade A), green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

When a company messes up on the basics I can’t ever trust them to get the complicated stuff right.

[theBCnut]

Today, I finally remembered to give my dogs their new chews. I was going to be gone for hours, so I figured they ought to have the big guns. I don’t think they even licked one of them the whole time I was gone, but since I’ve gotten home, they haven’t stopped chewing them and carrying them all over the house. I was afraid I had a bad batch or something, but nope, I don’t think so now. Silly dogs!! They have never delayed chewing on something before, so I don’t know what to make of it. Bones taste better when Mom’s home?

[Dori]

Glad to hear you like them BC. I’ve recently added the Beef, Tripe and Fish to the girls rotation. Hubby is quite the squeamish one when it comes to feeding raw so this is as close as I can get if he has to feed a meal because I’ve dared to not be home at the girl’s meal time. I wish they didn’t have the freeze dried potato in their ingredients but as you know I feed rotational diet with every meal it really won’t be a big deal. I don’t like to feed Hannah with anything that has white potatoes because of her touch of arthritis.

cindy q. I believe that some of us have stated (not just me) that for an adult or senior dog this is a great food to feed in a rotational diet. Also most of the regulars on this site feed rotational diets so that what they may miss in one meal (if, indeed, that is the case with any food you may feed) they will pick it up in the next meal. Every single meal does not have to be “complete and balanced”. Complete and Balanced has to be met over a period of a week. If you feed a rotation diet then you really should not have any problems when feeding quality foods. If you’ve followed any of my posts on the DFA site I’m a firm believer in both raw and rotational feeding. My three dogs are my proof (for me) that this is the best diet for them.

I’ve never owned a large dog so have never had to research large puppy requirements in a dog food. I believe it has to do with the calcium in a food so as to not have their bones growing quicker than they should. Others would be knowledgeable in that area. I believe this food would also be fine for puppies of medium, small and toy dogs. I would have no issue feeding puppies this food but, again, I don’t feed any food solely.

[Dori]

This is copied and pasted from BDN web site today.

INGREDIENTS & GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
1. CHICKEN SUPREME
Wholesome air dried whole chicken (grade A) ground with bones, green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):30% Crude Fat (min):17% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.56:1

2. TURKEY SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, whole turkey (grade A) ground with bones, liver, green beef tripe, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):31% Crude Fat (min):16% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.63:1

3. TRIPE SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):31% Crude Fat (min):15% Crude Fiber (max):2.5% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.75:1

4. BEEF SUPREME
Wholesome air dried, Angus beef (grade A), green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):30% Crude Fat (min):18% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.2:1

5. FISH SUPREME
Wholesome air dried whole fish (North-Atlantic wild caught) ground with the bone and organs, liver, green beef tripe, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

Crude Protein (min):32% Crude Fat (min):16% Crude Fiber (max):2% Moisture (max):12% Ca/P 1.3:1

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Dori.

[crazy4cats]

The BCnut was hardly being rude. She is giving the exact same advise and information that HDM would give. She has just as much or more knowledge. She has already completed school and has much experience in the field. HDM would tell Kim to feed her dog variety. Do not feed the same food everyday forever. Yes, Fromm is a recommended food, but it is best to rotate with other kibble as well. She would also advise that a high quality canned food is healthier than kibble as it is less processed and has less carbs. Her first recommendation for dental health would be to brush his teeth, secondly give raw meaty bones such as turkey or pork necks, chicken backs or quarters, or chews such as bully sticks or pig ears. Third choice she has a few dental treats she recommends. A few are Zukes ZBones, Newman’s Own Organics Dental Bones and Nature’s Recipe Dental Chews. HDM is awesome, but she doesn’t participate as much in the forum anymore. I suspect she is extremely busy. I believe it is best to start a new topic under the appropriate category and get as much advise and information from as many posters as possible. Kim, I truly hope you can get your dog to eat and maintain his dental health. I feed my dogs kibble with several different types of toppers such as canned food, eggs and sardines. I give them bones, necks and dental chews. I hope HDM pops in and helps you out, but in the meantime maybe you could use some of our advise as well. As I have learned a lot of this from her and the BCnut.

[Naturella]

Kayla, for training, do not use Beneful. In fact, do not use Beneful-or-Purina-anything for anything (food/treats/chews/etc.), EVER! You can do so much better for the same money, or less!

For training, look up the treats suggested. For dental-style “treats” or to satisfy the natural chew urge, I would recommend natural chews, such as: bully sticks, fish skins, cow/pig ears, and, if he’s a heavy chewer – some deer/elk antlers and maybe a Himalayan dog chew (a type of very hard Himalayan yak milk cheese). All of those chews and others are available online at: http://www.bestbullysticks.com
I would avoid the smoked bones (femurs, knuckles, etc.) but the rest of the chews are great. Also, The Honest Kitchen has fish chews (Beams and Wishes) that did wonders for my Bruno’s coat.

What food do you plan to feed your new guy?

[Susan]

Hi Robyn, this dog hasn’t eaten properly probably for years, poor thing, I would be cooking for her just till her tummy gets use to food again, I’d boil chicken breast or turkey (lean meats) add some boiled white rice, get a kibble with the fat% around 10%-12% just to get her use to fat again, I wouldnt do raw just yet, I’d say she was probably just feed a cheap kibble, when she could eat, poor thing.
I rescued a boxer years ago & she was skin & bones, I wanted her to gain weight as it was soo embarrassing on our walks, but I had to do it slowly cause she’d vomited or diarrhea, so vet said just something simple for 1 month till her stomach starts to get use to food & 4 small meals a day, as her stomach would of shrunk & she’d feel full real quickly, her stomach will slowly stretch again…
I’d love to see a picture of her, I love Pit Bulls, scroll down you’ll see right down the bottom ‘Contact Us’ in blue on ur right click on that & it will take you to “How Can I add a custom image to my personal profile” just click on that then you’ll see a link to the “Visit the Gravatar Website”….

[Dori]

Rib bones you’ll find in any supermarket. They are good for chewing, contain a little bit of meat, not much. They won’t crack a tooth and another good point is that they are very inexpensive at the grocery store as opposed to the frozen you’ll buy at the pet store. Always you’re assured that the ribs at the grocery store are for human consumption, not so with the dog ones. Anyway, that’s my reasoning. I would imagine that others would agree. And look for sales at the stores. You can buy a rack on sale and just split them up. If they appear to have a bit of fat on them, just trim the fat off.

Naturella. Once or twice a month in the winter for the meaty beef bone with marrow is ok. I would scoop out some of the marrow and throw it away. I am concerned at the small size of the bones you’re giving Bruno. Could be a possible choking hazard. Rule is always give bones larger than you think they can handle. Bigger is always better. Of course not giant size that he can handle it but I’m sure you know what I mean. Watch him chew on it for a while then you can put it in a baggy and refrigerate and give it back to him in a day or two. But do scoop some of the marrow out.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by Dori.

[crazy4cats]

Hmmm, that is what I was afraid of. The marrow has never bothered them. I give the bones to them when they are still pretty frozen so I don’t notice the marrow. They don’t try to eat the bones. Just socks, paper, pens, pencils and poop!
Nancy- lol! I have bought all three brands. Our store is starting to carry a lot of different frozen raw brands. I’ve seen the lamb bones too. I’ll try them instead. I’ve never seen any rib bones, however. I wonder why when so many DFA regulars recommend them. Good discussion, everybody!

[theBCnut]

Marrow bones are weight bearing bones. I agree that 4″ is small for a bone that they should not consume. That’s the smallest I would give to my 45# dogs. My dogs don’t try to eat marrow bones so I don’t worry about them breaking their teeth, but hard chewers definitely should NOT have marrow bones from beef.

I scrape about half the marrow out of them before letting the dogs have them, otherwise it’s too much fat.

[Dori]

C4C. 4″ is pretty small for a 80 lb. dog. Also, myself and others are not crazy about beef marrow bones because of the marrow. The marrow is a very high fat with no nutritional benefit. Of course, I guess it depends on the % of fat in the food you are already feeding. C4C if it were I, I would switch to a bone without marrow and a much, much large size. You know how small my girls are and I would never feed them a bone that small. If your dogs haven’t broken or cracked any teeth then they have strong teeth and that’s good, my concern is over the 4″ size of the bone and that it contains marrow.

[Nancy C]

I think they ARE weight bearing. I went to Whole Foods and asked for a Raw Meaty Bone and he brought a very large one out which he said he could cut down to whatever size I wanted. He also said that dogs go nuts for the marrow and he said it was a femur. I later learned that those are weight bearing bones. While I do not like to assume anything perhaps when you figure out WHICH BRAND it is that you are using, just call and ask. I was at the Pet Boutique today and PRIMAL has some of those in a bag in the freezer. I know someone who feeds them to their dog and the dog LOVES them. I did not say anything to her about it. The employee at the store told me that they carry lamb bones which are easier on the teeth. She said to me that weight bearing is risky and yet they were in the freezer. So MUCH to keep in mind!!!!

[crazy4cats]

Hi guys-
I have been giving my dogs beef marrow bones that are at least 4 inches. The are packaged by either Nature’s Variety, Primal or NW Naturals at our local feed store. Are these considered weight bearing bones? I have been giving to them for a couple of years about once a week or two. Have I just been lucky or are these pretty safe for 80’poind dogs? Of course they love them.

[Nancy C]

OH MY I just figured out that BC stands for BORDER COLLIE ! Duh! My dear friend has two BCs and both are Therapy dogs with our local hospital – the Children’s Hospital. They are such wonderful and beautiful dogs! So you ARE a BC NUT!!!

Thank you for that info. I guess he COULD sometime handle these LAMB bones, which is nice to know.

I guess I need to find out from BIG DOG NATURAL about the Calcium and Phosphorus amounts so to plan for our dog. I think I am going to use some Darwins too and they are very forthcoming about those ingredients.

Our GSD can eat 1 1/2 pounds of raw food a day, according to the Calculators on raw food sites. He MIGHT need 2 full pounds. Will have to experiment I think. I had figured that down the road I can just give AXEL BDN or Darwins for breakfast and measure out on a scale the remaining weighted “True Raw” food at night, like some part of a chicken or even a part of a Turkey Neck. Does this make sense? Thanks.

[Nancy C]

Cyndi:
First your dog is beautiful! I love the way he looks right into the picture! And with seeming purpose! 🙂 I know he’s a sweet one.

Thank you for your post also. You all are really helping me. My GSD was gone for three months for training and while he was gone I decided on RAW. Like you, I read the major books, watched Becker’s videos, took notes, read on line, and my binder is jammed. He had all those troubles on Origen and Acana and i just decided kibble was not worth it.

I will brush his teeth in addition to doing the bones. Thank you for that info. Have some HARE TODAY turkey necks frozen now but he is not YET on raw. I am working with a Homeopathic Vet who is wonderful and who has recommended Big Dog Natural although DFA people did not feel good about what BDN not coming forth with info re GA. I asked BDN about it and they said they could not tell their “secret” (which she inferred had to do with the fermentation of the veggies and the air drying process). The Homeopath vet feeds BDN to his 6 dogs – several are Great Danes – and he loves the food and the company. He also feeds Darwins. He has suggested that I go cold turkey when I transition the GSD using chicken and the turkey formulas (BDN) to begin with for several weeks. One Protein. (THat is what Tracy at HARE TODAY also suggested.) Once he’s doing great on that I will pull out the Turkey necks. After that I think I can start veering out a little. Tracy at HARE TODAY emailed me to take my time and NOT PUSH IT — that getting in a hurry will mess up his digestion. She’s SELLING RAW and TOLD ME TO SLOW DOWN! (That’s a sign of a good person!)

The woman who 1/2 owns Ziwipeak has two labs and she said she feeds them Ziwi at breakfast everyday and then gives them a raw very meaty bone for supper at night. I never got into Ziwipeak myself but it was interesting to hear that she does that. Says they are a picture of health.

Now it appears I must find out about CALCIUM so I do not overdo it. Any references about that?
Thank you again for your input. This is such a great site and I have met wonderful people.
With Gratitude,
Nancy C.

[theBCnut]

Too much bone can upset their calcium/phosphorus balance and can cause constipation. Since I’m making half of my dogs’ food, I watch what needs to be balanced and add nutrients to make sure they are getting everything they need. For mutton, I usually get it from Hare Today, and sometimes it’s not ribs, but other bones instead. They have goat chunks as well. Llama is usually from the local guy with a llama farm, so not much help there.

It’s weight bearing bones of large ruminants that you need to avoid. My BCs handle goat and mutton femurs just fine. Every once in a while, I have to throw away a small piece that they didn’t consume. Yes, neck bones and ribs are softer, so less likely to break a tooth, but as long as it isn’t cow leg bones, I don’t worry about breaking teeth. Llama legs might be big enough to cause a problem, but I haven’t got llama legs.

[Nancy C]

WHERE do you find the goat, llama, mutton rib bones? And they are “softer” meaning easier to chew which MIGHT mean that there could be a decreased chance of a cracked tooth? Oh yes, you have your own goats.

was just at the pet store. INSTINCT has a pkg of two lamb bones. They were about 9 to 10 inches long and had some meat on them — about $9 for two. They must have been femur bones. NOW would THAT BE A GOOD CHOICE? (I have read to stay away from load bearing bones).

Bottom line: I am scared. But I have Got to do it for his teeth.

Would you please tell me WHY you have to “watch their bone intake” because you feed 1/2 raw? I need to understand that concept. Thank you. If you could see my notebook full of notes and things I have learned you would be proud of me. It’s just that there is SO MUCH TO LEARN. I never knew having a new dog would require so much knowledge! But NOT to know these things is dangerous.

Thank you so much!!! You are a great teacher.
nc

[theBCnut]

Sorry. What I left out is that I have Border Collies, so beef ribs are a bit big(thick, hard) for them and they will work on one of them for days, until I throw it away. I feed 1/2 raw, so I have to watch how much bone my dogs get in their diet. I know when I feed them a beef rib, they won’t be eating the entire bone, so I have to factor that in. But they eat the whole thing when it’s llama, goat, mutton, or pork without any issues or delay. Your GSD may have no trouble consuming the whole beef rib and you might want to feed 2 ribs of smaller animals because he may go through them so easily. Mine eat chicken and duck sized bones with no trouble, but turkey they have to work at. Your dog will easily eat either, I imagine.