[aimee]

Yup! Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that would have happened. The owner was livid! How dare I put tanning oil on a No Hide…. I think there was just such a strong belief and trust in the company that when shown something incompatible with that belief something had to go and that something was me LOL

[aimee]

Well that didn’t go so well…I brought my beautifully tanned “No Hide” back to the store and as soon as I showed it to the manager was ordered to leave the store. Yup thrown out.

Recently learned of someone who did the same as I did with similar results.

I do not understand the hold that this company has on retailers.

[aimee]

Hi Penny,

Unless your dog had the rather uncommon condition of struvite stones not related to an infection, diet isn’t the way to prevent recurrence. To prevent recurrence you need to seek out and address any medical problems that can make her prone to infection and then monitor urine for infection and treat appropriately.

[aimee]

Hi anon,
When I asked Zignature who formulated their foods and what their credentials were this was the answer they provided: “Our formulations are done between our owner and our nutritionist. Our nutritionist is a biologist who specializes in nutrition, and is one of the top pet nutritionists in the industry, and our owner has 20 years in the pet food industry and he spent 9 years researching pet food and nutrition before leaving to launch Zignature.”

Wasn’t exactly a confidence inspiring answer So I asked specifically if the have a PhD nutritionist or veterinary nutritionist on staff. They said they didn’t employ any veterinarians as veterinarians do not have much nutritional training but they do have a PhD nutritionist. sadly they seem completely unaware that veterinary nutritionists exit.

Most companies do not employ a veterinary nutritionist including Zignature For companies making foods to support medical conditions I do indeed want to see a veterinary nutritionist on staff and my preference for well pet diets is to have a veterinary nutritionist on staff or as a consultant. But for well pets I think there are some very talented and knowledgeable PhD nutritionists that can do a fine job.

[aimee]

Hi Kate C

Earth Animal guarantees 100% satisfaction with the product. Since you are not satisfied then go back to the store where you purchased the product and ask for a return of your money. They in turn will have to collect back from Earth Animal.

My understanding from my state feed control official is that Earth Animal has revised the labeling. That may be all the state can have the company do as they do not have the ability to test the product and can not use the report I had done as they didn’t hold chain of custody.

It is a very frustrating situation.

[aimee]

I have enough tanned “No Hide” to make you a coin purse… Do you have a spare pencil holder? I could use one of those : ) I’ll post back in the response of the store owner.

[aimee]

I have to say I did consider making a coin purse! Reminded me of being back in Camp Fire!
Maybe after I show it the store owner who sold me the chew. Do you think it will convince him that it isn’t what the label claims? When I bought it I told him I was going to tan it. He marked it so he can identify it when I bring it back. i covered the mark with a couple of coats of clear nail polish before starting the tanning process. It preserved his mark.

[aimee]

Why didn’t I think of this before? My friend is a taxidermist. I asked him if I could tan a rawhide. He said I should be able to do it and advised hydrating it in a non iodized salt bath. He told me to let it dry out a bit until just damp then apply tanning solution to both sides of the hide and wrap in plastic wrap for 24 hours to soak in, then let it dry. I used Deer Hunters Tanning Oil from a local sporting goods store and I also tried my hand at egg yolk tanning,

I purchased a known rawhide and successfully tanned it! It looks like a light tan piece of suede. It really is quite pretty. Next I bought an Earth Animal cough cough “No Hide” chew. I hydrated that and then tanned it. It tanned up beautifully! Main thing when tanning is that as the hide is drying you have to continually pull the hide. This is so it stays supple. I showed the results to the taxidermist he was amazed how well it came out!

For the egg yolk tanning I found videos on how to do this on you tube. I tanned a piece of the Earth Animal chew this way as well. It took longer to dry but again came out pretty well. No reason anyone couldn’t do this. I’d recommend using one of the thinner thickness chews for tanning.

[aimee]

Hi Tyrionthebiscuit,

I was thinking about this further. The small (4 inch) chew is reported as 1.8 ounces (51 grams) and the medium (7 inch) chew as 3 ounces (85 grams). It would make sense than that the large (11 inch ) would be equivalent to one 4 inch and one 7 inch which in ounces would be 1.8 +3 = 4.8 ounces or in grams 85 + 51 = 136 grams.

Looking at the company website they report the calories for the 4 inch beef chew as 150 kcal and for the 7 inch chew as 263. The 11 inch chew is reported as 413 kcals, which is the sum of the 4 inch and the 7 inch reported calories (150 + 263)

For the Chicken the 4 inch is 152 kcals and the 7 inch is 266 kcals for a total for the 11 inch of 418. For the Salmon flavor adding the calories from the 4 and 7 inch is one kcal away from the 11 inch and for the pork flavor 2 kcals away.

For the kcals to be as reported the large chew would have to be around 4.8 ounces and 136 grams, the sum of teh 4 inch and the 7 inch weights The one version of the label reported 4.9 ounces which would be 139 grams but then Earth Animal incorrectly listed 4.9 ounces as 255 grams.

So it appears that the company never intended to make a 255 grams chew and that that number is a goof up. It is interesting then that you are finding chews that weigh that much.
Yamka reported in his report that “Once the rolls were cooled, they were cut into appropriate sizes” If the rolls started out as 255 grams then your 4 inch and 7 inch should have weighed a lot more then label weight so that that the total weight for a 4 inch and a 7 inch would total the weight of an 11 inch. What you are finding seems odd It makes me wonder if these chews are being sourced from more than one place and your 11 inch chews are from someplace different than you 4 and 7 inch chews.

i

[aimee]

Jennifer S,

In regards to your puppy diet follow this, “She told me calcium is calcium…… . She said I shouldn’t be feeding any meat that has ground up bones in it or giving bones to chew, at least until he is older”

NOT this, “the calcium from bones affects dogs differently and they poop out what they don’t need.”

Puppies can not regulate calcium absorption, therefore they will not just poop out what they don’t need. Calcium in excess of needs will be absorbed and can interfere with proper growth. Recommended Calcium level for growth is 3 grams/1000kcals

I’ve found that the myth that “calcium from bones affects dogs differently” is perpetuated by those making inappropriate diets and trying to pawn off their poorly crafted food onto unsuspecting owners. Bone is a cheap filler!

[aimee]

Hi Tyrionthebiscuit,
Interesting that yours all weighed out correctly. What general part of the country are you in?

I’m not sure what you mean by “they are listed at different weights size, not all the same “255” grams” Do you mean that for a particular size you found multiple label weights?

For simplicity I’m going to call them small, medium and large. The small ones by me were either labeled “4 inches” or 1.8 ounces (51 grams) the medium ones were either labeled “7 inches” or 3 ounces (85 grams) and the large were labeled either 11 inches, 4.9 ounces (255grms) or 9 ounces (255) grams

Are your large ones that weighed 255 grams ~ 11 inches or are they longer. If they are ~11 inches are they wider than the 7 inch and 4 inch ones?

The other thing I noticed is that there are multiple styles of roll. On the end of some are “caps” for lack of a better word to describe then and others are the cut end scroll of the rolled material.

[aimee]

The managers of chain stores said while they agree there is a problem they have no input into what corporate tells them they have to sell and therefore there is nothing they can do. The managers though are not willing to inquire to corporate office. Instead they advised me to do so. Their body language was interesting. I interpreted it as they were fearful of their corporate owners.

The independent store employees were interested in the information and were very concerned. The owner of the store, who has said rawhide will never be in any of her stores and heavily markets this product, has so far said she believes in the product. I see it as she is emotionally invested in the company and can’t see things objectively.

The corporate owner of one of the chains said she can’t comment on a scientific report as she doesn’t have a science background. I sent her the findings of the first report and she doesn’t want me to forward her any other reports saying she will act only if regulatory makes her.

The other corporate owner never acknowledged my contacts with him.

So I’m seeing this pattern of those that are in a position of profiting off of the sale of the product as being unwilling or unable to objectively understand what the reports found. And those without money ties to the product are open to seeing it for what it is. Very frustrating, especially as these stores advertise how they carefully select for and only sell the best products that meet their high standards. All marketing hype!

This is what got me looking at weights. People can play the “science”card.. Oh I don’t understand the report it is too complicated for me… but hard to claim ignorance when the product label says 255 grams and it only weighs 107

[aimee]

Recently what came to mind is if there are problems in one area of a company there may be problems in other areas as well. I went to several stores that sells No Hide Products. I took my kitchen scale with me and started weighing the No Hide products. In nearly all cases the product did not meet label weight.

The longest chews are labeled as 9 ounces (255 grams) but a few were are labeled as 4.9 ounces ( 255 grams) Obviously 255 grams can not be both 4.9 ounces and 9 ounces, 4.9 ounces is ~139 grams. The chew weights varied. The lowest weighted chew was 109 grams and the highest 155 grams. None met label claim of 255 grams.

Other sizes had problems as well. For the middle sized chew, labeled 85 grams, weights varied from 61-74 grams. The smallest size reported at 51 grams varied from 38 grams to 71 grams.

The packaged twists labeled at 85 grams were pretty uniformly between 64-66 grams and considering there wasn’t a way to weigh the packaging the true weight of the contents would be lower than this.

Before going to the stores I put brand new batteries on the scale and I weighed out some standard measures and found the scale to be accurate. I also weighed out various other items in the pet stores all which were at label claim.

From this small sample at three different stores it appears that the company has serious quality control problems. It would be interesting to me if others do or do not find similar weight issues in their areas and report that information here.

[aimee]

Keep in mind squirrels can carry tularemia. People are at higher risk for infection then dogs. The infection can be life threatening. Why risk your health?

[aimee]

Hi crazy4cats,

By regulatory I mean I will be sending to the FDA and to my state feed control official. I’m going to try and find out if I can send to other state feed control officials or only my own state.

[aimee]

The lab report for the analysis of a known rawhide chew and comparison to the Earth Animal product that claims not to contain rawhide was received today.

This is the description of the known rawhide : “The material appears to be composed of streams of eosinophilic material (no observable nuclei) with scattered regions of relatively distinct margins. The material is birefringent using polarized light. The diameter of this material varies (random sampling of measurements 27 um, 28 um, 30 um, and 33 um). Interspersed within the material are multiple clear spaces (artifact of processing vs. empty space within material).”

Comment “The product examined is from a known rawhide product. The rolled product appears to be composed of collagen-like material.” ( For direct comparison this was the comment from the analysis of the Earth Animal product ““The majority of the rolled product appears to be composed of collagen like material”)

The two products were then compared:
“The histomorphology of this product serves as a control product to allow for comparison of this product to the product examined in case #17-217 (No-Hide Salmon Chews, Earth Animal). Based on histomorphology, the composition of the rolled product in both cases is extremely similar when viewed microscopically with a majority of the product examined in
#17-217 being composed of eosinophilic material similar to that of the product examined in #17-279…. Based on my evaluation of both products, I suspect that the product from #17-217 is composed of material similar to that of #17-279”

Both reports will be sent to regulatory I hope they do the right thing. In the mean time I think a grass roots effort to spread the word is in order.

[aimee]

Hi Tyrionthebiscuit,

I’m not sure what you trying to say. The dogs were diagnosed as having Acute Polyradiculoneuritis (APN) the canine equivalent of Guillain – Barre. Guillain Barre has been associated with Campylobacter. The purpose od the study was to look at dog’s diagnosed with APN and see if they have a higher incidence of Campylobacter than healthy dogs not diagnosed with APN, and they did.

To understand relevance of what you reported regarding asking 4 vets if they ever had a positive culture for Campylobacter in a raw fed dog I need more information. How many tests in total were run by each vet? What were the diet histories? What were the results and were the findings statistically relevant?

When evaluated in this manner raw fed dogs had higher incidents of pathogens.

[aimee]

Wow Anon!!
What an interesting post. Thanks for sharing it!

[aimee]

Hi a.c.,

Like you surmised it also occurred to me that maybe the company doesn’t want to put anything in writing. If it isn’t in writing you can always say you didn’t say it : )

Looking at what is in writing, looks like there are problems there as well. I think all of these need to be on the label since the company is marketing this product as easily digestible: the word snack or treat on the front label , calorie content /unit and a nutritional adequacy statement.

Inked Marie,
This company is full of Wow moments…..

[aimee]

I thought I’d provide an update of sorts. The estimated cost for a full analysis at a lab that identifies unknowns was ~2000.00 They would tell me all ingredients identified and in what proportions they are in. It was a bit more than I felt comfortable spending: ) I elected to instead have a known rawhide processed at the lab where I had the “No Hide” processed.

Chris Moore never returned my calls but I did have an interesting conversation with Tom O’Hare Vice President of Operations for Earth Animal. He told me that the chews used to be meat based but the company found that they could not make a durable chew that way so the meat was removed from the product about two years ago. He said currently the only meat in the product is in the outer coating of the chew. This is consistent with the findings of the diagnostic report I referenced above. I asked why, if there has been no meat in the white chew roll for 2 years, did Earth Animal in response to Dr Kallenberger’s report on the Truth About Pet Food site state ” One report discusses seeing microscopic blood vessel passages and flesh fibers……. we are not surprised at these observations as meat is an essential part of the “dough” portion of the No-Hide. ” Additionally, I asked why on many pages of the EA site does it describe the chew as being made of meat? “The chicken has been carefully rolled, cooked, and uniquely dried for a one of a kind chew your dog will love!” In response to these questions Mr. O’Hare said that information should never have been on the site and in the future E.A. will only be providing an ingredient list. I next asked how the company could meet the Guaranteed Analysis of the Salmon chew, reported at 55% min protein, when the primary protein source, Salmon, is only in the outer coating. He responded by saying brown rice flour is high in protein. I informed him that according to the USDA Nutrient database the protein content in brown rice flour is 7%. Next he said the protein comes from the gelatin. I responded that could be true of the other flavors but the Salmon chew uses agar which has a reported protein content of ~6 % Finally, he said the protein comes from the colored coating on the chew. I said I removed all the coating from my chew and it was only about 7% of the product weight. Even if the outer coating was 100% protein it wouldn’t account for the reported protein content of the chew. I also inquired as to how the carbohydrate level in the chews could be so low (2%-11%) when the chew is made of a high carbohydrate ingredient? He said the analysis is done by a third party and that is what it came out to be. I said the analysis doesn’t make sense. The carbohydrate content would only allow for a few teaspoons of flour in a small chew, not nearly enough to make a chew.

The conversation ended but the interesting thing is he called back about 5 min later and his whole affect was different. He said he’d been thinking about my questions and that he can’t explain the discrepancies as he doesn’t have the background to do so. He promised to get me the answers saying that he would get in touch with Dr Yamka, Dr Goldstein, and a PhD that is on staff and get back to me.

After nearly a month had passed and he never recontacted me I e mailed him, he said I should contact Chris Moore. This is person I originally tried to contact. I contacted Chris by e mail and he asked that I call him right after Christmas, which I did, he didn’t answer. Initially, Chris respond to e mail, but he wouldn’t answer any questions nor tell me what would be good times to call him. He only wanted my cell phone number. He said he had a lot of questions for me. I said feel free to ask them but he replied that wanted to ask them by phone. Oddly, it seemed he only wanted to communicate by cell phone and only if he initiated the call. I told him I’d give him a cell number if I had one but I didn’t have a cell phone at that time. After that he broke off all communication with me and no longer responded to further e mails. I e mailed Tom and asked that he give me a different contact, that request and all other e mails to Tom or Chris have gone unanswered. All very odd.

The other day something occurred to me. When Purina reported that Blue Buffalo contained by product meal Blue Buffalo quickly filed a lawsuit against Purina. In the end of course they lost. But I thought it odd that Earth Animal as far as I know hasn’t made any such move.

I’ll post the analysis when I receive it.

[aimee]

Hi Ryan K,
I’d recommend that you talk to your veterinarian. If your dog is on Z/D for the purpose of doing a food trial to shift off it now will defeat that purpose. As none of the limited ingredient diets you can buy without veterinary supervision are suitable for a food trial you may want to discuss with your veterinarian completing the trial with a different therapeutic diet.

[aimee]

PitLove, I don’t think that will ever happen. She never seems to let science get in the way of her agenda.

[aimee]

I agree! This is a myth that just doesn’t want to die!

Lynn I’m glad your dog is doing better. You wrote “I cook the meat and use dog friendly fruit and veggies. I leave all starch and carbs out.” When feeding fruits and vegetables you are feeding carbohydrate, some which likely is in the form of starch. But that is OK as you can’t change yeast growth on the skin from carbohydrate content in the diet.

P.S. Potato protein is like the name reports a source of protein, it is not a source of starch.

[aimee]

Hi K9Ancestraldiet,

I typically don’t feed raw but have used some freeze dried raw and have purchased raw diet to lightly cook before feeding.

But in answer to your question no I wouldn’t use your food. I start by evaluating the company and like to see one that meets WSAVA criteria and from your website I don’t see that. Maybe you do but it isn’t evident from the site.

The site makes statements without any references to back the statements up which is a real turn off for me. For example this: “Raw dog food is 99% digestible, resulting in smaller stools and increased activity for all organs. (The more they work with less rate of passage, the more blood flow to the organs and longer organ life) and this “Did you know that students at Kansas State University ground up a old boot and sent it in for analysis and it was selected as a commercial dog food for the market by AAFCO?”. I think this is referring to a promotional piece from Hill’s Science diet but somehow way skewed from what that marketing piece was about.

There isn’t any caloric information on the site, the feeding recommendations are vague and don’t look to be accurate as caloric requirements are not linear.

All in all from the material presented my first impression is that the company understands very little about nutrition, and doesn’t fact check. These are not the qualities I want to see in a company I’m trusting to meet my dog nutrient needs.

[aimee]

Hi a.c.,
I’ve seen Smart Bones in stores. Other then I can say they do look manufactured from a dough vs a natural product like hide I don’t know anything about them

[aimee]

GSDsForever,

In regards to hydrolyzed ingredients for home made recipe’s…. not that I know of but doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

[aimee]

Dharlee

So glad your boy is feeling better. I hope he continues to do well. I’ll let my friend know that her story helped you.

[aimee]

GSDsForever.. Thanks for the kind words. They apply to yourself as well as a few other posters on this site.

Bobby dog thanks for seconding them.

[aimee]

P.F.I. LOL!

The pathologist e mailed me this am. He’s reaching out to others so together can come up with plan to definitively identify. At his point we can only say what the science tells us “collagen like” You can’t state collagen based on microscopy alone.

Hopefully have a plan in a few days.. I’m wondering what all this will cost “gulp” but I want solid data to turn over to the feed officials..

[aimee]

I received the lab report on the Salmon No Hide chews. This was done at a veterinary diagnostic lab by a forensic pathologist. The sample was submitted by my dog’s veterinarian. The lab rehydrated the chew in deionized water. The pink coating is described as gelatinous and friable which floated within the water. The chew itself described as tough and not able to be manually torn or pulled apart. The white/tan chew material was processed separately from the pink coating material

The coating material is described as having no distinct organization and an accumulation of eosinophilic strands. “The strands of material occasionally have multiple nuclei along the periphery and rarely cross striations are observed ( consistent with skeletal muscle) The myocytes [muscle cells] vary in diameter…….There are numerous aggregates that are clear ………….and brown crystalline structures within the material”

Comments: “The filling material appears to be a mixture of animal product (identification of skeletal muscle) mixed with a filler product( plant based material?)”

For the chew itself: “The material appears to be composed of streams of eosinophilic material( no observable nuclei) with relatively distinct margins. This material is birefringent using polarized light.” I didn’t know what that last sentence meant and looked it up. I found that it is a measure of symmetry and is a reported characteristic of collagen.
Comments: “The majority of the rolled product appears to be composed of collagen like material”

I found this interesting not only for what it says but for what it doesn’t say. The company describes the chew as being high muscle content ” meat is an essential part of the “dough” portion of the No-Hide” and ” The wild caught salmon has been carefully hand-rolled, cooked, and uniquely dried for a one of a kind chew your dog will love!” yet no muscle tissue was found on microscopic examination of the chew, only in the coating. Additionally, the chew had been described as being made of rice vegetable gelatin, oil and eggs with the protein added but no description of plant based products intermixed with animal based in the chew description ..only in the coating description. The chew is uniformly composed of collagen-like material.

Rawhide is the dermis of the skin which is a mat of collagen fibers. The pathology of this No Hide chew is consistent with dermis.

So what next.. I’ve already got hundreds invested into this and I’m going to take it farther. I’ll send out a labeled rawhide chew and have it processed as the No Hide was so a direct comparison can be made. Then depending on cost have specialized stains run.

Right now to my eye this forensic pathology report is consistent with this product being rawhide.

[aimee]

Hi GSDsForever,

Glad you find my posts informative. Happy to explain. I was going to post that Ultamino is Anallergenic renamed but you beat me to it.

There is hydrolyzed and then there is hydrolyzed… So yes there are several hydrolyzed diets being made. In all of the them the proteins are broken down to shorter Amino Acid strings. So for say Hill’s ZD they report ~ 3000 daltons which is about 27 Amino acid length. Purina’s HA product 12,200 daltons ~ 111 Amino Acid length chains

When tested 25% of patients reacted to the hydrolyzed version of the protein in the diet if that was their trigger protein

With Ultamino 88% of the Amino Acids are as a single Amino acid and 95% less than 1000 daltons or ~ 9 amino acids. Reaction at his level can’t occur… but there still is that 5% over 9 AA.. are any of those chains long enough to cross bridge and cause a reaction. Never say never but pretty darn unlikely.

So for Ultiamino far less likely to get a reaction to the hydrolyzed form but also what I’ve heard is that the diet is great for GI problems as the AA are all separated ready and waiting to be absorbed : )

Hope that helps explain why Ultiamino is unique.

[aimee]

Hi Deborah M,

My heart goes out to you and your dog. In some ways your story reminds me so much of a friend of mine. Her dog was suffering from multiple issues, projectile vomiting and watery diarrhea, skin issues and shifting leg lameness. Her vet recommended RC hydrolyzed soy. There was no way she was going to feed that. We agreed to disagree on the topic.

For years I watched this dog suffer and always supported her when the dog was going through a tough bout. She tried one food after another “researching” at sites like this. And she suffered to.. not only because her dog was sick but because her dog had gone through cancer treatment and she always feared “IT” was back and causing the signs. So she repeatedly had full cancer works ups done trying to find “IT” and she’d be both relieved that IT wasn’t found and feared IT was there and no one could find IT. She was having anxiety issues.

Exhausted, she went back to her vet and asking for help there had to be something else and her vet gave her that same recommended she heard before. So off she went again to another specialist ….and he gave her the same recommendation. Not having anyplace else to turn she fed the dreaded food….and everything resolved. The vomiting and diarrhea stopped, the shifting limb lameness stopped, and the skin cleared. She was dumbfounded how could it possibly be. It went against everything she learned through her research. And she asked me how could it be possible. I told her the body doesn’t care where the amino acid used to be it only cares that it has it the amino acid in a form that can be absorbed and used.

In regards to Ultamino there is no other diet like it. It is a unique one of a kind product as the “protein” isn’t protein at all. Really the diet is technically protein free as the amino acids are all individual or groups of 2-3 amino acids. It is digested protein in that sense. It is what is used in neonatel formula for preemies whose tracts aren’t able to digest protein. RC told me that their source of Amino Acids is the same source as used in neonatel formula, it comes from, as I recall, Switzerland and yes in both incidents those amino acids used to be connected to many others that once made a feather shaft.. There is no feather meal in ultamino…. there are AA in ultamino that used to make up feathers.

My friend was at her wits end.. so she fed the diet she said she’d never feed and her dog’s medical problems resolved.. You are at your wits end… maybe like my friend it is time to take the vet’ s advice.

[aimee]

Thanks to Inked Marie and crazy4cats. I appreciate you taking your time to comment.

[aimee]

Susan,
I’m sorry but I’m not understanding you. I said “she doesn’t give her dog certain things because she recognizes it as not safe.” The certain things being the pig ears and pig nose.
and I agreed with you that some dogs are don’t chew a lot before swallowing.

[aimee]

Hi Joseph,
When I was a teen I saw a dog choke to death on a large bone. As an adult my friend’s dog suffered a serious abdomen infection because a raw bone shard penetrated the intestine. As Susan said it is normal for dogs to gulp their food but note she also said she doesn’t give her dog certain things because she recognizes it as not safe.

You’ll have to decide what your comfort level is. Death from bone is natural but not what I’d choose for my dog.

[aimee]

Hi Jodi,

I started at the stores where the product is sold and asked for them to help me investigate. Sadly I haven’t had any luck but i think this is a place to start. Earth Animal guarantees 100% satisfaction so if you are not satisfied start there and get your money back for all the chews you purchased.

My hope is to find experts that will be able to tell me one way or another what this is. If the product turns out to be other than claimed then I will go to the state feed control official and FDA with that information and keep pressure on the stores that sell them.

[aimee]

I understand your point from a dog owner education standpoint but personally I just can’t bring myself to blame her.. it was a tragic event.

As for the company… something isn’t right here. Size aside if the chew that led to that dogs death tests out as rawhide ( I thought i read the actual chew was being tested) I think she has a valid court case.

[aimee]

Pitlove,

I understand why people lay blame at the owners feet but I’m reluctant to. It was a small size chew but a 11 inch chew could have resulted in the same problem. The dog given a larger chew could have sheared off a shorter portion and swallowed. That is Brooke handles linear chews which is why they are not an option for her.

I also agree that Thixton has a history of not letting facts get in the way of a good story and jumps to conclusions.

Does it matter if the chew was hide? I think it plays a role here. I could see someone assuming that a chew made of those ingredients would break apart from jaw pressure from such a large dog, more like giving your dog a large biscuit whereas that assumption likely wouldn’t be made with hide.

a.c.
I paid 5.99 for 4 inch piece of No Hide and 1.18 for a similar sized rawhide. So yes people are paying a premium for this product.

[aimee]

Thanks A.C.
I did see that along with the company rebuttal. There is no doubt in my mind that this chew is not solely made of the ingredients the company is reporting. Really no sense arguing over DNA analysis and digestibility testing, from a very simple practical standpoint you can’t make a chew with the profile and ingredients they are claiming to use and end up with a white chew.

Of interest though is that the nutrient profile of No Hide is very similar to that of other chews made of hide: very high protein, very low fat and about 15% moisture. From import data the company that makes these, Pony Express foods has been importing tens of thousands of pounds of chews from China each month. The company said they are selling those at a farmers market. Must be some Farmers market to need ~5000 lbs of chews a week.

[aimee]

I took a look at No Hide Chews trying to backward engineer a salmon chew. From the website we are given that the carb is 11%, fat is 5% and from the label the min protein is 55%, with 17% max moisture

The ingredients are Salmon, Vegetable gelatin, brown rice flour, organic eggs, olive oil banana and bromelain. Vegetable gelatin could be one of any number of things: ager or carageeanan or some other source. in general these are high carbohydrate sources. Ager is reported as 82% carbo, 6% protein and 3% fat. From the USDA nutrient database brown rice flour nutrient content, rounded off, is 12% water, 7.2 % protein, 2.8% fat, 76.5% carb and 4.6% fiber.

The company told us the carb content of the Salmon chew is 11%( the carb content of the pork chew is reported as only 2%) So~8.7 grams of my chew is carbohydrate split between vegetable gelatin and rice as the main carbohydrate sources with there being more agar then rice. If we assume 6 grams vegetable gelatin at 80% carbohydrate that gives us 4.8 grams carbohydrate and the remaining ~ 4 grams carbohydrate would have to come from rice ~ 5 grams of rice flour or about 1 and 1/2 teaspoons. ( the 4 inch pork chew would only have about 1/2 tsp rice flour in it.)

The fat content is reported to be 5%, 4 grams in my chew. Salmon is considered a fatty fish. From the USDA nutrient database dried chum salmon is ( rounded to the nearest percent) 62% protein 14% fat and 22% water. Dried Egg is 48% protein and 43% fat. and oil would be 100% fat. So as not to exceed the reported fat content I can’t use a lot of Salmon, 25 grams dried salmon yields 3.5 grams fat unless it is some type of defatted Salmon and I can’t use much egg or oil either or the fat content is exceeded.

Protein min of 55%, 43 min grams protein in the chew This has to come primarily from salmon, but it would have to be some type of special defatted salmon. Salmon is very deeply colored and the chew is white. Hmm… that doesn’t work does it. Maybe they bleach the salmon.. but the website states no bleaching process had been done. Salmon is pink/red and egg is yellow so you’d expect the chew to be pinkish orange maybe. That color matches the coating on the chew but not the chew.

Well that’s weird isn’t it?? The chews is white…yet except for the rice flour of which there is very little in our chew recipe the ingredients are colored. How can the chew be white when the ingredients to make it are all colored? This isn’t making sense.

I boiled my chew pieces for about an hour. The chew was made of 5 oddly shaped and sized pieces and one rectangular “cover” piece. Oddly though this didn’t change it too much. The sheets shrunk and curled but didn’t fall apart and you couldn’t tear it break it up at all. You’d think salmon rice and vegetable gelatin would fall apart.

I can’t replicate making a “no hide” chew. I can’t make a white chew out of colored ingredients nor can I match the nutrient content the company reports as being in the product if I stick to the ingredients and the USDA nutrient database.

I called and e mailed the company to ask them about the product. When I asked how the product can be so white I was given a different number to call for someone named Chris. I’ve called Chris multiple times but haven’t reached him. I never got a response to my email and it has been about a week since I sent it.

Personally I think there is an “ingredient” missing from the ingredient list and I think it makes up the vast proportion of the product. I found a lab willing to test the product. I will send them a new sealed package of No Hide chews and see if they find anything.

[aimee]

Hi Theresa,

I don’t know that I have a real strong preference for one over the other in regards to potato over lentils but my preference would be for potato. This is likely based on experience with my own dog’s GI problems. And rightly of wrongly I associate lentils with gas. I’d imagine that like anything else there are individual responses which make one work better than another for that particular dog.

Hi Anon
The quote you posted from the Zigniture site was one I asked the company about. Starches are interesting. Potato when fed hot is high glycemic and when eaten cold falls into low glycemic or just outside the low range. Potato variety also plays a role.

Since kibble isn’t fed hot I asked for a reference for that statement. The company wasn’t able to provide one and directed me to the GRI page Then they, in my opinion, dug themselves into an even deeper hole with saying potato feeds yeast and that ” many times when they[owners] see their dog itching, they assume it’s an allergy and its actually candida” There is no basis for such a statement. This was followed with a statement that by eliminating potato and grains from the diet you’ll starve the yeast and their “proteins that assist in cooling the body down to help keep yeast from growing.”

The company is making a lot of statements for which there is no evidence and appear to be pages taken right of the holistic handbook.

I took a look at the GRI. I found it very odd that they give out awards for “best pet resort” and “best pet food store” and the winners are both in Florida a mere 11 miles apart from each other. No mention of how these businesses were chosen. I didn’t find anything about actually feeding the foods they are rating and measuring glucose levels. I did find that you submit an application for them to test your food and then they will tell you how much it costs. There is a yelp review that someone wrote saying they paid $6.000.00 and never received any results anything from them and now can’t get them to respond to his inquires.
Overall I don’t see this company as credible.

[aimee]

Hi Tyla,
Look at the AAFCO nutritional adequacy statement on the bag. Fromm foods that are marketed as Adult often carry an AAFCO statement saying that they are formulated for both growth and maintenance. If both the adult and puppy version of the line you are looking at are formulated for growth that is likely why you don’t see much difference between their “puppy” food and their “adult” food.

[aimee]

Haleycookie.. count my dogs among the unfortunate. We are all shaped by experience. When I was a teen I saw a dog choke to death on a bone…. horrible imprinted memory. A friend used to feed raw, stopped after the dog had peritonitis from intestinal bone perforation. Events like these may be “extreme circumstances” to use your words but I have to say they did not, to use your words “make me laugh”. When you experience it first hand it becomes very personal.

People should be informed of the risks of bone chewing and then decide if they are at peace with those risks. I’m not comfortable with those risks and others are. We can each respect each others decisions.

[aimee]

Hi Lori,
I think you are referring to Candida when you say you think your dog has yeast overgrowth inside his body. Candida normally an innocuous inhabitant of the bowel can invade other areas. Occasionally a dog can get Candida in the urinary tract, seen secondary to Diabetes for example. Candida inside the body is very rare and almost always occurs secondary to some other illness. You’ll have signs like fever, abdominal pain, weight loss, lack of appetite .. these dogs are very very ill and usually die.

That said some years back a few loud voices attributed a myriad of problems including allergies to “yeast overgrowth” in the bowel. The idea has been abandoned by nearly all medical personnel because there are no medical finding to support the concept. A few people are holding tight to the idea despite lack of evidence that it occurs.

There is so much misinformation out there….be careful when researching as it is easy to go down the wrong rabbit hole

[aimee]

Hi Pitlove,
The vet gave her a list .. from a previous post today “I know the low sodium list made from the Cardiology dept from Medvet -Cincinnati uses the milligrams per Kcal”

I believe it is this list she has:
http://massvetcardiology.com/Data/resources/feedingthecardiacp/Medvet__Cincinnati__Heart_Friendly_Low_Sodium_Dog_Diets.pdf

I think the problem is she was looking for other options that met her criteria of grain free and low carbohydrate.

Lori J
I can’t reconcile the % values for sodium to the caloric values.. I’m having to make some assumptions but what I calculate is so different from what they are reporting. Hopefully the company can explain

[aimee]

Hi Lori J
Keep in mind grain allergies are rare and that carbohydrates in the diet do not feed yeast on the skin. So sad that people that should know better write articles and post videos saying that you need a low carbohydrate diet to conquer yeast infections…. you don’t. The fact is that the type of yeast on dog’s skin is a fat loving yeast. Give some of these guys all the carbohydrate they want and you know what happens…. they die because they need fat to live. But even if they were carbohydrate loving yeast. How would the carbohydrate get from inside the digestive track to outside the body which is where the yeast are? Hmmm see where that falls apart?

Point is you don’t need a low carb food…. you need a controlled sodium food. I took a look at the MedVet list.. lots of choices there including grain free options like Cal Natural kangaroo and lentils.

Have you looked at Nature Variety Instinct dry line? You might find something there, for example they are reporting their limited ingredient Duck as 0.3% Na =74mg/100kcals, limited ingredient turkey is 0.4 %=97mg/100 kcals Ultimate protein Duck 0.4% =89/100kcals. If you think one of the Natures Variety products would work check with the company to make sure the website info is accurate and check with your vet.

[aimee]

Hi Anon,
The numbers don’t make sense to me either.
I didn’t find kcal/kg information on their website only/cup which isn’t very helpful and using those numbers and an assumption of grams/cup what I calculate isn’t even close. For example turkey reports 457 kcals/cup I’m assuming 110 grams/cup. Using the 0.54 % Na level which I assume is as fed I get 130mg/100 kcals ..less than half what they reported.

I realize one set is on caloric basis and the other isn’t but I’d expect that lowest and highest caloric values would be close to the same ranking as percentage. Could one set be canned formulas and the other dry?

I emailed them for some information on August 18th. I got an e mail back saying they needed time to answer my questions…. still haven’t heard anything.

[aimee]

Hi Barry C,
Anon isn’t the only negative review see Cannoli’s post. I also not a fan of NuVet. I don’t see that it would harm … just don’t see that would do any good when added to a complete and balanced diet. Maybe things have changed since I last inquired, but the company would not provide me with a nutrient analysis of the product. This is always a red flag for me. Can they not provide it because they don’t know? And if they don’t routinely test their product to be able to provide a average nutrient analysis what else aren’t they testing?

Mainly I see it as a supplement for people …. it supplements their income when they get others to buy it: )

[aimee]

Hi A,
The yeast on dogs skin is Malassezia which is a fat loving yeast, not a carbohydrate loving yeast. In fact you can supply certain strains of Malassezia with all the carbohydrate they want and they won’t grow because they need fat. It is odd that people recommend not to feed carbohydrates as it “feeds the yeast” but they don’t also recommend not to feed fat because it “feeds the yeast.” Both recommendations are equally silly. Yeast resides outside the body so what you put into the intestinal tract isn’t going to influence its growth unless the dog has a cutaneous food reaction ( allergy) to the ingredient.

Ehrstrom 2006 actually investigated the idea that high carb contributes to Candida in woman and found glucose levels in secretions didn’t change after ingesting high glucose loads.

[aimee]

That’s too bad that the vet didn’t make a recommendation. I read a bit on clostridial problems and found a diet high in soluble fiber to be recommended. The thing is when it says crude fiber that is a measure of insoluble fiber

Ask your vet if wither Hill’s ID original or stress would be any good.

[Author]

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