Dog Food Advisor › Forums › Editors Choice Forum › HELP! Need advice on legume free food
September 11, 2018 at 7:17 pm #121406 Report Abuse
Kodi’s echo was NORMAL!!! THANK GOD!!!September 11, 2018 at 8:45 pm #121408 Report Abuse
Yay Kodi! You ROCK, Buddy! Your mom knew you were fine. Amelia, I’m breathing a huge sigh of relief now, but I just KNEW he was fine. Huge happy HIGH FIVES to you and your boys!
I called the vet’s office today and asked if I could please get a whole blood taurine test. The vet tech LAUGHED and asked why I wanted that. I said there is a vet in California who is doing a study on taurine levels in golden retrievers, and he suggests that the whole blood be done. She laughed uproariously and said, “May I remind you that you don’t have a golden retriever?” I told her that wouldn’t be necessary because I am well aware of my dog’s breed. Then I asked if I could please either be in the room when he has his echo, or wait in the waiting room to get an immediate opinion from the cardiologist about my boy’s heart size. She said she “doesn’t know how that would be possible,” that he brings his own techs, and my vet’s techs are only in the room occasionally to “help hold them down.” (!) I told her I would like her to ask him if he could just tell me if his heart is enlarged or not. She responded that she would not ask him that because she “knew the answer.” I told her I thought the time between the initial blood draw (August 15) and the time I finally get any info on my dog’s condition (September 21) is inhumane. She just kinda reprimanded me for “being so impatient,” and said my vet would answer all my questions when he calls me with the report. I have decided to call the university tomorrow to see if I have to have a referral from my vet to see the cardiologist there. If not, I plan to see how soon my boy can see him there. It’s only about an hour’s drive from my home, and if I can get in and out before 9/21, it’s worth it. Meanwhile, I am on a hunt for a new vet….
My dog does indeed love the new food. I’m introducing it very very slowly. He weighs 45 pounds, and I’m so OCD that I actually count the pieces of food I mix with his Zignature Zssentials with each meal. I have a written schedule of when the quantity of new food increases every four days. I live in terror that he’ll start throwing it up, but I really don’t think he will. This is good stuff! Thank you again so very much!
Thank you for the update on Kodi! I thought about him all afternoon, and I was eager to hear. Great, great news!September 12, 2018 at 12:59 am #121410 Report Abuse
Thanks for the good wishes on Kodi. Yes we are pretty happy. OMG, let me get this straight. Were you talking to your vet or someone in the office? Horrible!!! Did you ask for the office manager or to speak with you vet about this? I hope you can get an appt at the university. I don’t think you would need a referral. I went to both of the cardiologists without a referral. I’m not sure what area you live it. But check out this link. In the lower right side of the page, enter the specialist and your area. Maybe you can find someone else. http://www.acvim.org/
I wonder if there is anyway we can email me directly instead of putting everything on this forum. But I wouldn’t want to put my email address here and I am sure you wouldn’t either. Maybe if we emailed to moderator to find out.
I am so upset over these people. Unbelievable! You are worse than me with the food. I think I weaned them over a period of 2 weeks. I tried the chicken first (of course, I thought I bought beef, but I didn’t). Anyway, at the beginning I was rushing it since I was so anxious to get them off the old food. One was vomiting and the other diarrhea. So that wasn’t good. Then I realize OMG, I bought the chicken. Anyway, after they were on the beef and doing good. I tried the chicken again and soft poops again. So forget the chicken. I have the turkey and soft as well. But I will try that again but slower this time. Yeah, the food is expensive but there’s no junk in it. My younger one has lost some weight on it, which is wierd because it is over 600 calories a cup and their old food was 400. But I guess since this food is low carbs. I do add organic blueberries, broccoli, cauliflower, kale, carrots (alternate each meal) supplements, taurine, L-carnitine, etc. It’s a half hour job just to feed them. But as you know, they are worth it. Anyway, please let me know how you make out.September 12, 2018 at 8:15 pm #121433 Report Abuse
I got an appointment for TOMORROW with a cardiologist at the university. I called this AM and asked when the soonest appointment was. She said, ” I have one and only one tomorrow at 11:30.” It will take most of the day, but my boy is getting “a full cardiac evaluation.” And I’ll get the results “almost immediately upon completion of the evaluation.” It may be overkill, but I’m OK with that too. I then called and cancelled my appointment on 9/14. I’ll have all the info before he ever would have seen the cardiologist at my vet’s office.
You asked if I talked to my vet or his office. You have no way of knowing that he is protected like The Pentagon from us would-be intruders who might want to ask a question without an appointment….
I,too, would like to email directly. I’m sure the other people on this forum don’t care about and have no interest in what we’re sharing. I don’t see a moderator contact or email, though. Do you? If, please share.
Please enjoy your evening. Thank you for all your support and vast knowledge.September 12, 2018 at 8:52 pm #121436 Report Abuse
TOMORROW? OMG, GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!! Please let me know how you make out. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!! Tell your vet to take a hike!September 13, 2018 at 2:59 pm #121461 Report AbuseCockalierMomMember
Just wanted you both to know I find your conversation very worthwhile and interesting. I am keeping positive thoughts for both of you. Both my girls have been on foods with potatoes and or peas all of their lives (over 6 years) and I need to find out if taurine was included in their most recent bloodwork. I may be following down your same path soon and it is nice to know I have somewhere to get support if needed.September 13, 2018 at 7:43 pm #121487 Report Abuse
The results are in! THERE IS NO ENLARGEMENT OF MY BOY’S HEART! The cardiologist increased the taurine supplement to 1000 mgs twice daily from 500 mgs once daily, because he has a tiny bit of systolic dysfunction (normal is >25% and my boy’s is 23%). Because of this and his extremely low taurine, she wants to increase supplementation for six months and then re-test taurine. Systolic dysfunction affects the ability of the heart to pump blood through the rest of the body, but the degree of the dysfunction is not a concern at this time. I asked about carnitine supplementation as well as taurine. She said she “doesn’t think that is indicated.” She also recommends that he be “switched to a food that is NOT grain free” (Duh!) and “this should be done slowly to reduce the risk of GI upset.” (She was talking to The Village Idiot apparently).
So sound the trumpets! Beat the drums! Clang the cymbals! Ring the bells! And activate the alerts! My boy’s heart is in good shape!September 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm #121492 Report Abuse
YEAH!!!! THANK GOD!! I am so glad for you. I was thinking about you guys all day. What a sigh of relief. Now you can sleep in peace! Did you tell her you switched foods already? Any followup with her needed? Don’t you hate when they talk to you like you are an idiot. Did you like her? So now you have to find a new vet. So when he is tested next time, tell them to do whole blood and taurine. Or will they do it there? My cardiologist does it, but I chose to have my vet draw it ($25) and I sent it directly to UC Davis ($151). The cardiologist wanted $289 and she was sending it to UC Davis anyway.
You know, they all say switch to grain free. I don’t believe that really is the correct thing. It is the legumes and/or potatoes that cause the problem (and that’s not 100% yet) So If you find a food that is still grain free and legumes/potato free it should be good. I don’t believe it is the grains that are helping this problem but rather the legumes that is absorbing the taurine. And aside from that, the FDA webinar form 9-4, they stated that there are more dogs getting DCM that are NOT taurine deficient than are. I noticed that on the taurine deficient facebook page. Are you on the page? They have a spreadsheet of hundreds of dogs. I studied it for hours and could see no common denominator. I am a good example of that. Both my dogs have low taurine, fed the same food and one has DCM and one doesn’t. I really think they are going nuts over this without enough conclusive evidence.
But in Auggie’s case, it was the low taurine and hopefully his heart will continue to shrink and be 100% normal.
BTW, I don’t think you mentioned how old your boy is and what breed and his name??
I did email the moderator to see if we can email directly but haven’t heard back yet. I’ll let you know. TAKE CARE & PARTY TONIGHT!!!!September 13, 2018 at 8:37 pm #121493 Report Abuse
Taurine is not usually in annual blood work if it was their annual checkup. You should have their taurine checked and send it to UC Davis. Your vet can draw and you can send it.
Instructions, pricing and submission form is here:
https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/labs/amino-acid-laboratorySeptember 13, 2018 at 9:56 pm #121503 Report Abuse
this is what I am saying….The grain free diets are overwhelming with too many legumes.
http://www.petfoodindustry-digital.com/201809/index.php?utm_source=KnowledgeMarketing&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Pet+eNews&utm_campaign=18_09_11_PetENews#/38September 13, 2018 at 10:08 pm #121511 Report Abuse
Thank you for all your enthusiasm and kind words. It is SUCH a relief to know he’s OK. She wants to re-check taurine in six months. I asked her to re-check it with a whole blood test today, but she thought that was “premature.” Interestingly, she said normal plasma values are 60-120, but my vet said normal plasmacvalues are 120-160; when I asked her, she said 120-160 is normal range for whole blood! Have I already said I’m kicking my vet to the curb? My vet quoted $500 for the echo. By going to the university and the very cardiologist who would have done it at my vet’s office, the ENTIRE evaluation was $424! The echo was $224, and the rest was exam ($150) and cardiology technician fee ($30). So my vet was going to profit quite considerably from having the echo at his office.
I am not on Facebook. If I were, I fear I would never eat, sleep, shower, clean, or do any other thing! I’m embarrassed to say that I’d be nosing into everyone else’s business all day and all night!
My boy turned a year old yesterday, and he is a whoodle (1/2 poodle and 1/2 wheaten terrier). His name is Doc Pierce, which is also the name of the restaurant where my husband and I had our first date. My vet, whose opinion I don’t care about, claims that the legumes (peas especially) absorb the taurine, and they zip right through their system and come out in the dog’s poop. He thinks millet and barley can be used instead of the peas, alfalfa, potatoes, etc., so he thinks grain-free would be OK without peas, etc. Keep in mind, however, that he thinks Hills, Royal Canin, and Purina are stellar dog foods.
If the moderator needs me to agree to sharing my email address, (s)he can email me or check the post when I indicate I’d like to email directly. Or you can tell me how to email him/her.
Very interesting the FDA webinar. I’d like to watch it. Is there a way? And your dogs are indeed a classic example of how un-grain-free food responsible this panic appears to be. And how did you know about the webinar??
I want to share a funny thing about today. The cardiologist said my boy was “a little naughty” today during the echo. He’s a year and a day old. My thoughts went to things like he pottied on the table, or vaulted off the table, or tried to eat the stethoscope hanging around her neck, or tried to make friends with another dog on an adjacent table. Nope! He “was squirmy.” I had to stifle a giggle. I wonder how many dogs lie motionless during an echo.
Thanks again, my new friend, for all your thoughts, kind words, wisdom, calm demeanor, research, willingness to share, and everything you add to this panel. Rump scratches to Augie and Kodi!September 13, 2018 at 10:17 pm #121515 Report Abuse
And yes, I liked her. And yes, I told her I had begun the weaning process. And although I wasn’t in the room, she showed me the films and pointed out all kinds of interesting things on them. And I’m sorry I misspelled Auggie. 🙁September 14, 2018 at 1:08 pm #121536 Report Abuse
Here’s the ranges from UC Davis:
Normal Range for dog 60-120
No known risk for deficiency >40
Whole Blood (nMol/ml)
Normal Range for dog 200-350
No known risk for deficienty >150
Now, for Golden Retreivers the whole blood should be greater than 250 per Dr. Stern. In case you’re not sure, your dog is not a golden (lol!!) Where did your vet get those numbers?
$424 is pretty good. I just paid $500 for Kodi’s and $635 for Auggie’s. I may be looking for another cardiologist. I am really pissed at her. Another long story.
I wasn’t on facebook either, who has the time? But I did join at the recommendation of Dr. Stern. There are multiple groups. This one mainly has information. check it out. I think you will be able to read it even though you don’t have a facebook account. The bottom of the page will ask you to log in but you can still scroll above and read the info.
I found out about the webinar from the pet food industry which I joined as well. (https://www.petfoodindustry.com/)
Here is the link to the FDA webinar:
I actually agree with your vet about how the legumes effect the dogs system, which I stated above. That is funny about the cardiologist, what dog stays still? Kodi’s was shaking like a leaf and Auggie peed on them. (omg, both are embarassing!)
OMG, I would never feed Hills, Royal Canin, and Purina. Interesting how many people on the facebook that are switching to those foods. I just don’t get it. When you look at the ingredients, ugh!!
Anyway, I never heard of a Whoodle. I just looked it up and they are soooo cute! Talk soon!September 14, 2018 at 11:00 pm #121624 Report Abuse
Thank you for sharing the links to all you shared! I’ll look at them tomorrow. I have spent most of today trying to find a taurine supplement that meets the specifications of the cardiologist. It can contain no artificial sugars, no additional supplements and no minerals. Well, OK, except the truth is, such an animal does not exist. I have gone to every pharmacy within 50 miles and searched the shelves. Many didn’t have taurine of any kind. But if they had it, there were certain ingredients in every one, including magnesium stearate and Vitamin B6. Well, magnesium is a mineral, B6 is a supplement. However, magnesium, by popular consensus among polled pharmacists, in stearate form is “a filler and not to be construed as a mineral.” B-6 is indeed a supplement. I called the cardiologist, and she called me back finally. And guess what she said. “Oh, gosh, the Vitamin Shoppe brand you’ve been using is fine. You aren’t going to find anything purer than that one is.” Soooo, I held my tongue and resisted the urge to yell at her and tell her that she could have indicated that in her notes. I had to take the bottles in with us yesterday so they could check the dosages and ingredients! It’s been a fun fun day!
Thank you for the compliment about my boy. If we ever get each other’s email addresses, I’ll send you a picture. I’d like to see Auggie and Kodi too.
I have no idea where my vet got those numbers for normal taurine blood values. But I can’t figure out a lot about that guy.
I’d like to hear why you’re annoyed with the cardiologist. You said it’s a long story. I love to read your emails, so do tell. Unless it’s too annoying and too long or you don’t want to re-visit it.
I’m tired. I’ll look for more from you tomorrow and post after I check out your links. Doc Pierce still seems to love the new food, keep it down, and poop it perfectly. My great sunt used to talk about her poop color, consistency and texture, and I thought that was so odd. I talk about my dog’s! How odd is THAT?😏September 15, 2018 at 12:43 pm #121636 Report Abuse
You should of asked me about which taurine to use instead of going nuts. Anyway, I use Now Foods powdered taurine.
I only chose the powdered because I couldn’t get the dosage I wanted in a pill and it was easier to do so with the powder.
I got this list from Dr. Stern after I already starting my supplementation. So I guess I did good since he recommends Now Foods also. But he does not recommend supplements unless your dog has DCM. But I see your cardiologist is recommending it for your boy. I stopped supplementing Kodi, although his taurine was low, I think it should be better now due to diet change.
This is from Dr. Stern:
Choosing a taurine or l-carnitine supplement:
Selecting supplements should be performed based upon those that match their stated contents and are readily available for absorption. Luckily a previous publication tested multiple taurine and lcarnitine supplements. Based upon this publication our laboratory recommends the following supplements as those meeting our quality criteria. (Bragg et al. 2009 J Am Vet Med Assoc; 234(2))
Tested taurine supplements that test within 5% of stated contents and if applicable disintegrated within 30 minutes
• Mega taurine caps by Twinlab (1000 capsule)
• Taurine by Swanson Health Products (500mg capsule)
• Taurine by NOW foods (500mg capsule)
• Taurine 500 by GNC (500mg tablet)
Tested L-carnitine supplements that test within 5% of stated contents and if applicable disintegrated within 30 minutes
• L-carnitine 500 by Jarrow Formulas (500mg capsule)
• L-carnitine caps by Country Life (500mg capsule)
• Maxi L-carnitine by Solgar Vitamin and Herb (500mg tablet)
• L-carnitine by Puritan’s Pride (500mg tablet)
The Stern lab does not recommend the empirical supplementation of taurine or l-carnitine to dogs without evidence of DCM and/or significant deficiency. If DCM is diagnosed we typically recommend dogs over 50lbs receive 1000mg of taurine every 12hrs and dogs under 50lbs receive 500mg of taurine every 12hours. We recommend L-carnitine at a dose of ~50mg/kg orally with food every 8hrs. Your veterinary cardiologist or family veterinarian should be consulted for prescribing the best dose for your dog.September 17, 2018 at 11:13 am #121780 Report Abuse
see member support reply from this site about getting our email addresses to each other.
Yes, please have her email us at: “[email protected]” giving us permission to send her your email address. I’ll do my best to help.
Member SupportSeptember 23, 2018 at 12:39 pm #122200 Report AbuseAmelia WMember
Try Farmina pumpkin dog food. It has only pea starch and not the full pea so you shouldn’t have a problem with it. My golden had a fussy stomach as a pup, and this is the only food she thrived on and still is thriving.October 19, 2018 at 2:59 pm #124656 Report Abuse
Thank you, Amelia W! I am feeding my boy Resl Meat Air Dried Turkey Recipe Dog Food. The vet at the university told me to get him off grain-free food. Because of his history of GI disturbance, I have been weaning him VERY slowly. I started the process on 9/8, and he’s almost completely on the new food. With taurine supplementation and a good probiotic, as well as four small meals daily, he is pooping normally and not vomiting AND Mr Persnickety eats, licks his chops and doesn’t thriow up. Color me elated! Thank you for the tip, and for takinh the time to post. I prefer not to “rock the boat.”
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