[Akari_32]

SSLL can be used with raw or cooked, so I don’t really see why raw would be a problem, other than the whole anti-raw standpoint they may have. Once I’m on a computer I’ll mess around on the website and see it there’s a way to contact them or any FAQs or something.

If I find anything else I’m considering, I’ll post them here for review, if you don’t mind 🙂

[Akari_32]

Yeah well next time she needs ear drops or a nail trim, I’m calling you! She won’t look like such an angel then…. Lol

Blood test is going to be $130-something and dental a little more. Extractions are extra, though I wasn’t told how much. If a blood test was only $40 here, I’d have one done just for the giggles. Lord knows there’s more wrong with her than just meets the eye, and I’m sure theres something nasty going on with all the tumors on her body. But very few people want a dog this old with her list of problems, both mradical and behavioral, as long as hers, so I just deal with them as they come.

Cats can’t even hardly digest carbs, so what good would that even do? Raw diets are actually shown to reverse a lot of diseases in cats and dogs. Canned with low carbs (less than 5%) would be the next best thing. Vets all think high protein is too hard on the kidneys when in reality it’s usually high protein with not enough water that is so hard on them. Protein takes a lot of water to be properly broken down and processed. So do carbs, so why add carbs and take that water away from digesting what the body really needs (protein)?

[aimee]

Yes, Balance it is for a cooked diet. You could call and find out if it could be used with raw, but I kinda doubt they would approve of it…because of the raw aspect. I think Dr. Bartges at Tenn is a vet nut who will balance raw diets.

[Akari_32]

Interesting. Thank you. I’m not sure if that website is also the company that makes the product, but I can’t really find anything else about them. There is one other site that sells it cheaper.

I’ve not looked into Balance it yet because the site doesn’t like my phone very much. However, it is true that it’s for a cooked diet only? Or can it be used with raw? I don’t have time to be doing any cooking (i barely even cook for myself!) lol

[DogFoodie]

I use raw tripe from MPC. It truly smells like dirty socks. It’s really not horrible though.

[Dori]

Akari. I’m so glad Bentley is doing better with his skin issues. He’ll continue to get better. If his paws are still itchy I would suggest what BC has stated in other posts and that is that you keep some sort of container….rubbermaid rectangular type or any brand for that matter, right outside the door you taken him in and out of and rinse his paws in the water just before bringing him back in the house. Keep a towel inside the door to dry his feet. That should help if it’s due to environmental issues.

Just another thought. Don’t forget to remove carbs from his treats. We so often forget that most store bought treats are full of carbs and other inflammatory ingredients. Which is another thought….try to remove all inflammatory ingredients from anything he eats. Some are white potatoes, tomatoes (all night shade plants). Rice is another pro inflammatory ingredient. Every little bit that you can remove from his diet is going to help. Some commercial raw foods contain white potatoes which is an ingredient that, if your dog isn’t allergic to, you don’t think to remove. Just google inflammatory foods, fruits and veggies. I’ve had to do that because of Hannah’s arthritis so Katie benefited from the removal of inflammatory ingredients which wreak havoc on the allergy prone animal and human.

[Dori]

Cheryl, thanks for your kind words. I’m hardly an expert on raw feeding or animal nutrition I can only relate my experiences with my dogs.

I don’t feed kibble and I don’t feed canned. The only canned I was somewhat ok with is Weruva but it contains caraggeean (can never spell that word) and it’s also made in Thailand. A very good trusted by most company that makes raw and dehydrated is Vital Essentials. Vital Essentials sells (as treats I believe or at least that’s how I’ve fed them) a bag of tripe. That’s a way you could go if you wanted to introduce some tripe into their diet. I don’t use commercial treats (too many carbs and ingredients that allergy girl, Katie, can’t have and I also just don’t trust them with all the recalls out there) so I’m always on the look out for something I can give them as a dry quick treat for training purposes. The dogs love them and they have not caused any gastro upset either.

A sardine every day is imo way too much! Only two or three times a week is more than sufficient. That’s probably why Pepper was no longer doing well with the sardines. You can go back to feeding her sardines if you want to but maybe a couple of times a week, not every day.

If Millie is already eating a freeze dried food and doing well with it then she should have no problem with raw at all. Freeze dried is raw. I would certainly switch her as soon as possible to the raw and get her off kibble. You can then feed both dogs the same foods.

Cheryl, you are not asking too many questions and you are certainly no bother. We all started where you’re at now. It takes a while to get the hang of it. Anyway, we are all still asking questions as we should be otherwise how else would we continue to learn.

I’m a Virgo. Perfectionist would be a kind description of me and, I too, suffer from migraines. I’ve had them since I was 10 years old. Hereditary I believe because my mother always had them. Anyway, ask all the questions you’d like. If I can’t answer any, I’m sure others will. Eventually you’ll be the one answering posters questions. That’s how it works around here. Learn and pay it forward.

[Akari_32]

Dori, since starting on raw, Bentley has gone from chewing the fur off his body from his ribs back to just chewing his feet, but not to the point where they’re bald, just red and stained fur. Taking as much carbs as possible out of his diet has helped so much! I still think a grass/pollen allergy is part of the feet-chewing problem, but his skin is no longer red all over his body, and his fur is growing much more fully. He’s actually less hyper on a raw diet, though he is a young terrier, so he’s always got energy when he thinks he needs it (which is almost always LOL). But he doesn’t have pointless, wired-up-for-no-reason energy.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. I started Hannah on raw when she was 12 years old. She was 15 last Sept. 9th so I certainly don’t think Pepper’s age is an issue. If she were my dog I would give her a taste (just a tiny taste) and see how she does and probably eventually have them both on raw. As to rotation, you need to do that slowly. When I first starting rotation with my girls I rotated with each bag, then I would have a couple of different raw foods in the freezer from the same brand at the same time and rotated weekly, once I realized that I could do that with no issues whatsoever I realized that I could introduce different brands. Then I realized I could switch and rotate daily and, of course, now I rotate with each meal or sometimes daily. Whatever happens to be in the fridge as far as fruits and veggies and whatever commercial raws are in the house. Twice a week I also give them sardines in water that you buy in any grocery store. I open the can and split it with the three of them. I also keep in the refrigerator a bottle of Nature’s Logic Sardine Oil. On days that I don’t give them sardines I add a tiny splash of the sardine oil, from the fridge, to one of their meals of the day just before I put their bowls down for them. Great source of omega 3’s.

Until you know how Millie (and Pepper) do on the different foods, I would feed the foods for different meals. It’s easier to keep track if they are having an issue with a particular protein or ingredient in a food.

I will say that there are many thoughts about feeding different foods together in the same meal or should they be fed separately at different meals. I’m one that feeds at different meals. I don’t ever mix different foods together. Even when I first started feeding raw, I had been feeding grain free kibble, I did not mix kibble and raw.

Also on THK it did take a while before their poops became normal size. Initially I questioned whether I would continue with it due to the size of the poops but as I had the box which is as you know very expensive and that was the only issue I had with the food I kept feeding it and then without my even really realizing it their poops were a normal size like when I fed grain free kibble. Now it’s a none issue. Of course raw poops will always be smaller, dryer, and no smell whatsoever. Another advantage of raw feeding.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Oh Dori,
Thank you for your loving, kind thoughts. Yes we do go on but the mind never forgets and the heart hurts.
Yes, At night we have a routine,pepper & now Millie are in bed we watch tv read -its funny watching Millie navigate her position, Queen Pep has her own pillow & Millie side steps it, but is always trying to put her paw or face on the pillow, i got her her own pillow of course, and she wanted nothing to do with it. Only pepper’s, so now she just lays in my arms, its so sweet-they are so adorable!
I think Pep will be ok with the pro den , I can ask the vet, but if its like its always been she will have never heard of it and will want me to buy something she sells.
Millie INHALED the rabbit, i may have done a no-no but i gave her 2 nuggets for lunch- gone in a matter of 2 seconds.
I did notice her poo a little soft on our walls just now,but, I think that due to me giving her a few TBSP of THK w her dinner.
I will hold off on that tonite, since she just got the real raw today.
I don’t want her system to go into overdrive.
She also loves THK. At least I know I can put that into her rotation-I guess the hard/new part for me will be figuring out her rotation-weekly or daily, it may be easier/better for her to rotate on a weekly basis instead of at each of her meals, this is so new to me with pepper I never had this luxury.
Pepper is still going quite a bit,I guess it may take weeks for her to adjust to THK.
I know Pepper smelled the rabbit -she walked over to Miilie’s bowl,oh Dori I wanted to give her a taste,but am so scared she would have a negative reaction.
In your opinion given her age (11 1/2 ) & the fact she never has eaten raw & her gastritis would you give her a taste ,I know or I should say I think Shawna gives her audrey some raw & she is the kid that has kidney issues.
I am such a wreck when it comes to Pepper & giving her something entirely new.
Oh well I can obsess on that question for a while 😉
Thanks again for your continued support

[Dori]

Cheryl. No do not put them in the microwave. I usually scoop them out of the bag from the freezer into their bowls. I leave them on the counter until they’ve softened up a bit which doesn’t really take more than 15 minutes or so then I feed it to them. If you want to defrost a little faster you can put the frozen nuggets in a zip lock bag and put the bag in a warm (not hot) bowl or tupperware, whatever, in the sink or counter until they soften up. You do not want to have raw cook in anyway (reason for no microwave or hot water) because you will lose some of the nutritients in the raw food, negating the purpose of feeding raw.

As to the Pro Dent Plaque Off, Hannah has been on it for at least a couple of years or so, as have Lola and Katie too. Hannah has had hypothyroid for at least half her life. Her thyroid levels are checked every quarter because she has been and still is on Soloxine so the testing is necessary. Also at 15 years old (last September 9th) I would be taking her for blood worth every six months anyway. Her thyroid levels (on her Soloxine….dose has never had to be adjusted) are always spot on perfect. So maybe iodine affects some thyroid patients and not others. Fish has always been in her diet and that has also never affected her thyroid levels. As I mentioned, I had checked with her vet before purchasing the Plaque Off and she told me that it would only affect her if she was hyperthyroid which she isn’t. Good Luck.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Good AM,
I have been reading the posts, i guess you all are talking about the ProDen..,
Dori,
Pepper is hypothyroid & is on medication , & I know from being hypothyroid myself iodine consumption has to be watched, I ordered the pro den already, I guess it will be o.k to try, I am going to start on the lower end (as I always do with her because of all her issues)-I hope it doesn’t affect her thyroid, i will wait & since she is due for her yearly thyroid test I will see.
I have a question bout the primal raw, I defrosted a few of the nuggets last nite, do you just feed them cold directly from the frig. or do you zap them in the microwave for a few seconds?
This is the big day at lunch i will give Millie 1 nugget instead of the orijen freeze-dried.
Thanks as always for all the help!!

[Dog_Obsessed]

If the commercial raw is balanced then you shouldn’t need base mix.

[Jennifer H]

Can you mix commercial with that base mix? Wouldn’t that be too much calcium? I was under the impression that THK bases were to be mixed with boneless but maybe I am wrong….

Or do you mean mixing regular (not base mix) THK with frozen raw?

[theBCnut]

Read here.
/forums/topic/kibble-may-digest-faster-than-raw/
Most raw feeders here do mix raw and kibble with no issues. I personally think the tummy troubles from mixing that some claim to experience are rare or an old wive’s tale.

[DogFoodie]

Thanks for sharing this, Sandy! It’s very intriguing!

I always thought that when Sam barfed a bit of bile in the morning, after a meal of raw the night before, it was because his stomach had been empty for too long, now I’m thinking that.

[Sam D]

We have a puppy where we want to give him a varied diet. High quality puppy kibble one some days and raw food (like honest kitchen, Aunt Jeni’s and Instincts frozen raw) on other days. So far he’s only had Taste of the Wild grain-free puppy.

If raw and kibble digest in the gut differently….then how can you really mix the two types of foods for a proper transition? We were just going to start him on Instinct Raw frozen chunks in his Honest Kitchen base mix but we’re worried he will not handle it well and then we won’t know if its the sudden change OR the food itself that’s bothering him.

Advice? Tips? THANKS!

[Dog_Obsessed]

This is super interesting, even though I’m not a raw feeder. Thanks! I do wish they had done it on more dogs though, for more concrete evidence. It’s a good place to start.

[theBCnut]

Ivana R
Your dogs problems are likely related. One of the common symptoms of food intolerance is ear and/or eye discharge. Try Nature’s Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet Rabbit and see if it clears up. If you don’t have that where you are, look for limited ingredient diets and see what is available to you. You want one that has ingredients that she has not had before.

Weezerweeks
After a bath, you can put 2 drops of rubbing alcohol in each ear. Massage the base of the ear before your pup shakes his head to mix the alcohol with the water. The rubbing alcohol decreases the surface tension of the water and that makes it shake out easier and it also makes it evaporate faster. Don’t use this if there is any raw tissue in the ear, it will sting. And don’t use it if your dog won’t let you put things in his ear, because you don’t want to wrestle with him and get it in his eye.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Thank you Sandy for posting that -never read it now its bookmarked!!
Dori, I am going to my freezer now & opening a bag of the raw!!! 🙂

[Dori]

I had read that article. It’s one of my favorite raw sites. Thanks for sharing it Sandy.

[pugmomsandy]

Article from the Raw Feeding Community called Digest This: Kibble May Actually Digest Faster than Raw.

http://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2015/01/08/digest-this-kibble-may-actually-digest-faster-than-raw/

[Dori]

Hi Kelly. My suggestion would be do go completely grain free. Avoid poultry and all the night shade plants some of which are white potatoes, tomatoes. Just google night shade plants. They are all inflammatory and you want to avoid them. You also want to avoid soy. Also, as Cheryl stated, rice is also inflammatory. You need to remove as many inflammatory ingredients from your dogs diet. My 15 year old 7 lb. Maltese, Hannah, tended to have high liver levels and is also on Denamarin daily. Her regular vet had prescribed 1/2 tablet a day but the specialist I took her to (at the recommendation of her regular vet) so that we could rule out any issues going on told me to give her a whole tablet once a day for the rest of her life. I’m sure you are aware that it must be given 1 to 1/2 hours before meals. Not with the meal. I also give her 200 mg. of vitamin E (soy free) once a day (also prescribed by both the specialist and Hannah’s vet). Mercola.com is the only company that has a vitamin E without soy that I have been able to find. When I originally went grain free Brothers Complete was what I was feeding but had to stop feeding their foods because all their foods include turkey or chicken in them and one of my dogs (I have three toy dogs) is intolerant of all poultry (all fowl). For the most part back around 3 years ago I switched to THK Zeal (only one of their formulas I could find that didn’t contain any poultry). I then added commercial raw diets to their diets. I feed rotational within brands and also different brands. The Honest Kitchen Zeal is still in rotation. I also feed some Freeze Dried foods. Hannah’s liver levels have come down considerably and just a shade above normal. They were crazy high awhile back.

[Dori]

Recommended dose for small dogs up to 25 lbs. (and cats) is 1/2 to 1 scoop daily. It comes with it’s own scoop. I add 1/2 scoop once a day on their breakfast meal. I think it actually took about 8 weeks before I saw any improvement. No, I’ve kept to the 1/2 scoop only per day. I was concerned that since the measurement for small dogs goes from 1/2 to 1 scoop up to 25 lbs. and my dogs are 5, 6 and 7 lbs. I thought going up might be too much for them. I could be totally wrong. The medium size for dogs is 25 – 50 lbs. and that’s 1 – 2 scoops so I stuck with the 1/2 scoop. I think you should certainly just start with the 1/2 scoop. If you go above that after 8 weeks or so, please let me know if you noticed any gastrointestinal differences. I’ve just been afraid to do it.

By the way, what raw foods are you feeding Bentley? So glad you went completely raw with him. What differences have you seen with him now that he’s been on raw for four months there must be plenty. 🙂

[Akari_32]

He’s on a completely raw diet now and has been for a good while now. I guess about 4 months. Seems longer… Lol

How much of that stuff do you put over your dogs food? They’re about the same size as Bentley, so it should give me a pretty good idea of what to expect. I think the website said something like 4 weeks, but if you don’t see an improvement in 8 weeks to use a little more each feeding.

[Dori]

Ok Akari. I know what you mean about their not drinking much water on raw. I hadn’t realized Bentley was an almost all raw diet. Now it makes sense.

There are two sizes of the Pro Dent Plaque Off. I bought the larger size because it was more of a savings and I use it every day on all three dogs. It does take a number of weeks (I forget how many…it says it on the side of the container) before you see improvement. It does a pretty decent job. I brush all three dogs teeth but I find that the Plaque Off does help. I hope it works for all your dogs. Have a great weekend.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl,

Yes I do know how you feel about your babies. I was like this even when my son was alive. (He passed away a little over eight years ago at the age of 22). He used to refer to the dogs as his sisters (we had Hannah then who’s 15 now and we another dog, a Tibetan Terrier named Tracy. She passed two months before Matthew did). Sorry I only mention in because though I no longer have children, my dogs have always been my babies and family members so I get exactly where you’re coming from. Of course, my personality makes me research everything like crazy, add to that that I’m a Virgo and you get the picture. I never believed much in the silliness of horoscopes other than to read them in the morning papers years ago but as I’ve gotten older I realize I’m pretty much everything they say about Virgo’s. Go figure???? If you’re uncomfortable and nervous about the raw food, then you should probably wait until Monday morning when your vet is open again. It’s in your freezer so it’s not like it’s going to go bad or anything.

I also agree with your reasoning on the possibility of holding off on getting a puppy. It may very well be a bit disconcerting to Pepper. I’ve forgotten how old both your dogs are. Also, is it going to be too much on you. When we brought Lola and Katie into our home (they are 5 now) Hannah was 10 years old and it took her a very long time to adjust to the two new girls. I was surprised because she’s never had problems in the past. I can only think that either it was her age or she just liked being the Queen with no subjects below her. lol! Who knows really. Sometimes it works out perfectly fine. I just don’t know how Pepper’s blindness would affect her having a little squirmy puppy running amok in the house as the do. You’d really be the best judge as to her temperament and stress coping skills. Have a good weekend yourself. It’s cold here in Atlanta but I’m thankful that the sun is out. In the Summer I’m always wishing that the sun would go away.

[Akari_32]

Dori, Bentley doesn’t drink much water since we switched him to canned and then raw. He takes a few laps every couple days or so, maybe even once a week.

I’m gunna look into that ProDent stuff and see how the prices are. If it goes over the food, I can give it to all the furry creatures if it’s cost effective.

Cheryl, I wash the dogs and cat bowls after every meal. Bentley gets raw, Ginger gets wetted dry and the cat gets canned.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Aimee:
Thanks for doing the math. One thing, I think the info Jake’s mom posted was for the cat pre-mix raw, not positive though. Hopefully JM will be by to confirm. The thread was originally started for info on dog pre-mixes; in an earlier post to me she wrote she bought the raw and cooked pre-mixes for her cats. I don’t think she bought a pre-mix for Jake yet.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Hi Dori,
It’s funny about feeding raw, & what the term implies.
The orijen freeze dried, I just opened & crushed & gave her, yet the thought of opening commercial raw freaks me out, i keep asking should i wait should i introduce it after this bag of Orijen is finished? Very silly I know.
These babies are my kids, since I have no children, I worry so-some may not understand, but, I feel you do.
The breeder called me & told me she just had another litter with 4 females-do I want another, I am so tempted to say yes to give Millie a pal her own age,but fear it would be way too much for pepper to handle,since getting Millie in Oct., its been hard on Pepper her age & add the blindness, I keep going back & forth.
Anyway, I digress, oh yes I agree with you I never never introduce anything at night, believe it or not, i don’t even like introducing anything over the weekend, when the vets are off.
I dislike the ER here, cost a fortune of money & not very nice.
I just ordered the Pro Den on Amazon, i will try it on pepper.
I am hoping to cut down on pepper’s dose of reglan next week since she seems to be ok on the Honest Kitchen-she had the turkey this am & I upped the protein with some beef-made her bowl so shiny almost didn’t have to clean it!!!
you have good weekend

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. The only one of Primal’s actual raw foods that has a heavy fat to protein ratio is the beef but I believe that is true of all raw foods. I feed rotation to my three dogs so none of that bothers me and as I have said so often a every single food that you feed your dogs does not have to be complete and balanced. Balanced and complete has to be met over the long haul. If you are feeding a meal that is not complete and balanced in a rotational feeding plan, you don’t have to worry so long as the other meals, or at least most other foods in rotation, are complete and balanced. As you do your due diligence and research into feeding raw, whether it is commercial raw or home made raw, not every single meal has to be complete and balanced.

The ingredient in Pro Den Plaque Off for animals is dried seaweed meal, that it. Why or how it works I don’t really know. I’ve used it for quite a while in addition to brushing my dogs teeth daily. It seems to help. How much? I can’t really say but as it is not an ingredient that any of my dogs are sensitive or intolerant of I continue to use it daily in their morning meals. When I add or offer any new ingredient, supplement or food to my dogs I always do it in their a.m. meal. I don’t give anything new in their dinner meal. I don’t want to deal with any issues or surprises in the middle of the night.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Pugmomsandy,
Yes I do add water to the patty – & it becomes mushy I add a few cooked carrots . Does it matter that I rehydrate the patty?
I am so nervous to feed raw – but if it is good for MILLIE it’s got to be good for me.

Thank you for the plaque info
I have a spray called denta sure but pepper doesn’t like something sprayed in her mouth so I put it on a gauze pad works just so so

[jakes mom]

Well I hesitate to post anything else here but I just got the KBPF and thought I’d list the ingredients for anyone who’s interested. It’s been a bad weather week in Ohio, lots of long commutes and snow shoveling and below zero temps so I have not had a chance to buy any meat to make the mixes. I have a few days off next week so will give it a shot then.
For the Better in the Raw mix: egg yolk, calcium lactate, beef liver powder, gelatin, whey protein, psyllium husks, EFA from fish oil, taurine, kelp, barley grass, Vitamin E succinate, Vitamin B complex.
Nutritional info based on “as fed” mixed food using ground chicken (average daily meal size 1/4 lb) :
energy 133 kcal
protein 17.29%
carb 1.2%
fat 6.0%
ash 3.19%
calcium 231 mg
phos 74 mg
mg 74 mg
sodium 144 mg
Potassium 201 mg
The U-stew mix for cooked meat has the same ingredients as above plus digestive enzymes.
The company suggests turkey, chicken, beef, venison, lamb or pork with 20% or less fat content.

[theBCnut]

I have heard someone mention it as a whole food vitamin to add to homemade raw, just to make sure your bases are covered. I would feel better about it if their “GA” was very different than their food, but the fact that it is the same makes me think they haven’t actually run an analysis on it.

[Dori]

Hi Cheryl. When I switched my three girls from kibble to commercial raw foods (I started with Primal Pronto Beef) about three years ago I never did a transition period and none of them had any gastrointestinal upsets. I’ve never looked back. I no longer remember who told me to just go “cold turkey” and do it and so I did. Many friends have asked my advice on making the transition to raw I have to tell them I never transitioned. I just fed them the raw. Of course, it took me a while to get up the nerve to do it, and me being me, I researched everything to death for months and months and months. Then one day just got my nerves together and just did it. I had the food in the freezer for a couple of weeks before I was brave enough to do it. It seems so funny to me now that I was so nervous about the concept of feeding raw. Good Luck, you’ll be fine and like me wondering what the big fuss was all about. Which Primal did you get, by the way?

Pro Den Plaque Off. Some local pet food stores carry it but a lot of on line sites carry it also. I usually order from Amazon. Follow directions for the size of your dog and just sprinkle it on your dogs food once a day.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Dori.

[pugmomsandy]

Cheryl – I bought it online. If she’s already eating Orijen freeze dried patty which is raw, then she should be able to transition to frozen raw. Do you rehydrate the Orijen? I only wash the dog bowls once a week…maybe. And I use the same bowl for kibble, canned, raw, etc. In the beginning, the bowls got washed after each meal. But that was 3 yrs ago or so.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Kristin C]

Hey Cheryl – I’m partly responding so I can opt out of yet another post. But, if it was me I would feed a small amount as a treat for a few days to see how she tolerates the new raw food. Once you’re confident with that then I would feed her a breakfast meal of it (or lunch too I guess). I wouldn’t suggest trying anything new for an evening meal in case it upsets her. It’s not fun to wake up in the middle of the night to a barfing dog:) Good luck to you.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Commercial Raw Feeders,
I could use some help.
Just got some primal Raw for my puppy Millie.
I took a big girl breadth , my questions how do i go about introducing this into Millie’s diet?
Give a tiny amt. alone? I still feed her 3x a day-her noon meal is an orijen freeze dried patty-do u think I should switch w the primal?
Can she eat the primal in her regular bowl or should I get her another stainless bowl?
I am sorry if I sound a bit “out there” have never ever done this-just worried about Millie
Thanks all in advance.

[Cheryl Pepper Millie Sophie]

Dori & KristenC
I am so sorry this thread took a turn like this-esp since I just recently started posting again (unfortunately this is exactly why I took a long break from posting on this site-happened before)
I too, feed the complete mixes and the grain-free base mixes yes only for a few weeks, but believe me if any fur-kid would have visible food coming out,it would be pepper, & so far, I agree with you Dori thank god I see nothing-I am amazed.Not to repeat myself ,but, pepper loves the food.
I probably will only offer it to Millie as a topper since she is a puppy.
I,too hope we can all chat on another thread.
I just got the Primal Raw-HELP, I got the surgical gloves out, should I feed Millie in a different bowl then she gets her other food?? Please tell me what thread to find you gals on! how do I introduce it to millie-so many questions so much stress 🙁

[Naturella]

Anita, even though your vet said to do that, the kibble size will do nothing to help clean your dog’s teeth. It is like cleaning our molars with large cookies.

What you can do is try to get your dog used to brushing. You can start with putting some coconut oil or dog toothpaste on your finger and let your dog lick it, then slowly get it used to you rubbing it on his/her teeth with your finger, and little by little move to a rubber brush that you put on your finger, or a real dog toothbrush. Since you have to get in the back of the mouth, it won’t be easy, but it’s really the best way to keep their teeth clean, and you need to do it daily, or at least a few times a week.

Another alternative is feeding raw meaty bones, like chicken necks, feet, wings, legs, etc., or pork/beef riblets and neck bone pieces. Always supervise while your dog is eating those and make sure she/he crushes them up well and is not gulping them. You can feed those a couple times a week, but make sure the amount is no more than 20-25% of your dog’s balanced diet. And no cooked bones.

Hope this helps! 🙂

[theBCnut]

In raw diets, they may be getting a meal from the same type of meat source multiple times a week and at a higher concentration of meat, since kibbles are typically at the very least 1/3 carbs. And yes, heat destroys thyroid hormone.

I honestly don’t know if in fowl the glands are not present, in a different location, or removed during processing, but I have also read that it is not an issue.

[Akari_32]

So I cought a glimpse of Bentleys teeth this morning, so I lifted his lip and was surprised at what I saw!

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/Akari53/077416C7-F70B-438D-AA01-3103924E0BC1_zpsqjap1hr2.jpg

I can’t believe his teeth are this yucky still after having been on raw for so long. He really doesn’t get much ground, most of it is large pieces of meat and sometimes little chunks, and he gets a bone about once a week. I mean, his teeth aren’t terrible, but they aren’t fantastic, either. Weird. I’ve got a lot of chews for him that I just got from PetFlow, so I’ll make sure he’s always got something to gnaw on and see if his teeth clean up at all.

[Akari_32]

Aimee, is there a way of knowing what pre-mix it was that the dog was fed? This has been something that concerns me with Bentleys such strict no-to-very-low carb needs and the fact that SSLL is the only affordable mix that meets his needs. I so wish I could find at least one other to rotate with, or be able to do complete raw, but cost and local availability do not allow me to do that on both fronts.

At least I have no problems with THK– Bentley doesn’t like it LOL Haley and Dweezle are currently getting less than a cup mixed between them in their kibble most nights though. I have a box that I forgot about that expires in February. Whoops! LOL

It’s interesting you say how well your one dog does on Pro Plan. I’ve used it several times in the past (coupons, you know lol) and I also can’t deny the results I see with Haley and Dweezle. However, it’s not something I use often because A) it’s Purina and I’m really not a huge fan, despite how it may seem, and B) Haley drops weight like she hasn’t eaten in months on foods with too much corn in them, and she drops it fast, so I have to pay attention to which ones I buy. It’s easer for me to just not buy it (at least not in bulk). Takes away the guess work lol

[heather t]

I have been trying to research this issue because I have 2 questions that I can’t find the answers to. 1. Why are they discussing this only in reference to raw diets. I am sure the same parts of the animals are being ground up in meat and bone meal for kibble. Does the extra processing/cooking eliminate the problem? and 2. I saw in one place that chicken, duck and turkey necks are not an issue. I can’t seem to find this confirmed or explained anywhere. I am so glad people are on top of this stuff now!

[InkedMarie]

I cannot help at all, except to mention this: you can purchase, for Forest, pre made raw or just ground. I use ground from Hare Today; Tracy, the owner, is very helpful. She may be able to help with the medical issues he has.

[aimee]

Kristin,

I believe dogs are quite flexible and do well on a variety of nutritional approaches so I agree there isn’t one right way. What is most important to me is the the dog’s needs are met.

So when I read of cases like the Sheltie pup who was raised on pre mix and raw and suffered severe nutritional disease it concerns me. Do companies know what they are doing? I don’t know that they do….

My second dog has Mast Cell disease . I hope your dog does well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef

[aimee]

Kristin,

You asked what my background was so I told you. I don’t give my dogs cattle or hog feed either LOL and I agree in my effort to explain I get too wordy. I don’t understand what you mean by this “The information you provide and your approach is not supportive” but that is ok.

I do advocate for meeting a dog’s nutritional needs when feeding them.

Edit:Currently Brooke is on Annamaet Lean as her base but she has been on it about 8 weeks and her coat is looking dull. I’ll prob rotate back to Purina Pro Plan weight management. I’ve also used Wellness Core reduced fat and EVO weight management too. She maintains the best coat on Purina. For toppers I add fresh and sometime commercial. Currently I have Primal raw, Stella and Chewy freeze dried and Pro Plan canned in the house.

For Jack, the crested in my pic he eats RC venison and potato, as his base along some Hill’s V and P canned with fresh and some Primal and some Stella and Chewy venison. He’s the reason those brands are in the house: ).

• This reply was modified 11 years, 3 months ago by aimee.

[aimee]

Dori,

I ‘ll be happy to discuss THK or anything I post about. I agree with you that their customer service is very responsive but CS hands are tied by the overall lack of nutritional knowledge of the company as a whole.

I think I covered the “kickback” thing. Marking up a product isn’t a kickback. Income stream from selling foods in a vet hospital EH… minor at best… It isn’t worth a vet’s time to sell pet food, his/her time is better spent in the surgery room! Considering the small volume of food sold and taking into account overhead and theft it is likely a bit of a wash. Someplace on Dr. Wynn’s vet blog she addressed this topic as her accountant said stop selling therapeutic diets, it is too much of an income drain!!

Sure vets get volume discounts on food as does anyplace buying the diets but again that isn’t a “kickback” and the volume they deal with in general is so small compared to a large retailer. If vet offices sell food I don’t see it as primarily income related I see it as providing a product they have had success with and trying to increase client contact. If they break even woo hoo!

Ok.. Why I wouldn’t currently recommend THK. On its most basic level I expect a diet when fed as directed to meet my dog’s nutritional needs. I first looked at THK when a poster posted about all the “sticks” in the product. I looked at the profile for the product she was posting about, Preference, and using the information they posted and their feeding directions I ran calculations. When fed to my dog Preference didn’t meet NRC rec or AAFCO min recommended amounts. This alarmed me!

In fact I immediately contacted THK, especially as Preference was being marketed on their website as being appropriate for feeding puppies!. To their credit after I contacted them they removed the information and feeding recommendations for puppies from their website within days. BUT why did it take someone with minimal nutritional training ( that would be me) to point out to them that their food is deficient? They acknowledged I was right by removing the puppy feeding recommendations but why still market it to adults? What about the adults eating the diet? Don’t they care about them as well?

I’ll run through a calculation with you. I’m going to feed my dog Brooke who weighs 68 lbs Preference. I’m to feed her 3/4 cup mix and 1 1/2 cups meat using their active dog recommendations.

The Vit E content of Preference is 70 IU/kg as received, Calories/kg 3510 and Cal/cup 333. From the caloric information 1 cup has .095 kgs of food and 3/4 cup is .071 kg Preference.

.071 kg of food X 70 IU/kg = 5 IU of Vit E in 3/4 cup Preference. NRC rec amt for Vit E is 1 mg/kg body weight to the 3/4 power. Brooke is 68 lbs = ~31kg. To calculate bw to the 3/4 power multiple bw three times and square root twice. 31X 31X 31= 29,791, take the square root twice = 13. Brooke’s body weight in kg to the 3/4 power is 13 and NRC rec Vit E is 13 mg Vit E of the alpha tocopherol form.

Now we have to convert IU vit E to mg vit E (alpha tocopherol) which is what NRC uses. The accepted conversion factor I found is 1 IU vit E = .45 mg alpha tocopherol So 5 IU Vit E x .45 mg/IU = 2.25 mg alpha tocopherol supplied by Preference. The Vit E content of the added 1 and 1/2 cup 85% lean ground beef is .58 mg Vit E from the USDA nutrient database, I’m estimating 1.5 cups as 12 oz. 0.58 mg from meat plus 2.25 mg from the mix = total Vit E fed 2.84 mg. Preference provided about 20% the NRC recommended daily amount of Vit E. This is why I don’t recommend Preference, it doesn’t meet needs.

I’ll compare Preference to AAFCO on an energy basis. AAFCO rec Vit E is 50 IU/kg and a kg of food is defined as 3,500 kcals 50 IU/3,500kcals x 1000 = 14.2 IU/1000 kcals.

I was recommended to feed 3/4 cup Preference which gave me 5 IU Vit E and 250 kcals and 1 1/2 cup meat. 1.5 cups 85% ground beef from USDA database approx 731 kcals and .58 mg alpha tocopherol. I convert mgs Vit E from the beef to IU and I get~ 1.3 IU Total Vit E fed 6.3 IU and total calories 981 kcals 6.3IU/981 kcals x 1000 = 6 .4 IU/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min is 14.2 IU/1000kcals so Preference provides less than half the min AAFCO Vit E requirement according to their posted nutritional information.

Dori, I hope you can now see that using the information provided by THK and adding meat to the pre mix it does not meet either AAFCO or the NRC recommended min levels for Vit E.

Now let’s look at their complete diets, are they complete and balanced? Go to their site and pull up the nutritional information for Keen. The posted content of Vit E is 23.45 mg/kg DM and their posted arginine content is 0.06% DM. Compare that to AAFCO. AAFCO min Vit E content for maint is 50 IU/kg DM and arginine AAFCO min is .51% DM. It really is as simple as that…. 23.45 IU/kg is less than AAFCO requirement of 50 IU/kg and 0.06 % is far far less than .51%. But consider that KEEN caloric content is reported as 4524/kg and AAFCO requires any diet over 4000 kcals/kg to be corrected. The correction is simple 4524/3500 x 50 = 64.6 IU/kg. A diet with KEEN’s caloric density requires 64.6 IU Vit E/kg and THK says there is 23.45 IU/kg. The company reports that their diet has only 36% the amount that AAFCO requires. THK is saying that their diet is not “complete and balanced” b AACo nutrient profile.

Diet after diet, nutrient after nutrient the information that THK posts doesn’t meet AAFCO

Have I reported them? The company on one hand says it is complete and balanced and on the other says it is not. For a feed control official to take action I think a nutrient analysis would need to be done to settle the question and a full analysis can cost thousands. I don’t have that kind of money to donate to the cause. I asked THK if their nutritional analysis are accurate and they said they are. I asked how they can say their diet are complete and balanced. They say they are. Both statements can not be true. Either the nutritional information is wrong or some diets are not complete and balanced. I don’t know which is true. The company said it didn’t have time to investigate it, but would get back to me. It has been over 6 months…Is that good customer service?? I’ve been waiting over 6 months for the company to answer as to how it can say their diets are complete and balanced when the information they post does not meet AAFCO.

I found a similar situation with Grandma Lucy’s, they say the diet is complete and balanced but they report that the Phos max is .45% which is below AAFCO min. I did report Grandma Lucy’s to the feed control official. Grandma Lucy’s printed their nutritional information on the package in their guaranteed analysis so the feed control official didn’t need to run an analysis. The food is misbranded: the label can’t say that it meets AAFCO while guaranteeing that the food is below AAFCO. So the official in my state placed a stop sale order on Grandma Lucy’s. Does that mean it isn’t being sold? Of course not!! The feed control official can’t be there 24 /7 in every little boutique that chooses to violate the law. Does the company care? They gave me the same line as THK; Our diets are complete and balanced. I’ve been waiting over 9 months for them to tell me actual Phos level in their foods.They said they should have the information sometime in 2015

People tend to buy food on an emotional basis. THK is very good at appealing to emotions: “human grade”, “whole food”, “non GMO” etc. They excel in it… I’m analytical.. I like numbers and data. I like things to be consistent and this company is full of inconsistencies. They say the food is “never cooked”…. but they “heat” to high temps. How is that not cooked? I asked THK but they wouldn’t answer. It isn’t raw… yet their phone number is “4 dry raw” and Lucy Postins says right on the video that it is raw. If you use their as received nutrient data the DM protein content is 21.85% for Keen but if you use their as served data it is 40% protein DM basis. They say the diet is highly digestible but expect your dog to poop three to five times a day. That’s normal… Really?? Normal for your dog to poop 3-5 times a day with undigested whole hunks of celery and sweet potato and alfalfa in it? They haven’t ever done any type of digestibility trials, how do they know it is highly digestible… they told me they know it is because raw foods are highly digestible… but wait… they told me their food isn’t raw. Do they have a nutritionist Nope… have they ever had a nutritionist review their diets? Nope. Since the company doesn’t use any nutritionists does it surprise me that their diets wouldn’t be balanced and they can’t do simple nutritional calculations… Nope

I see this company as a marketing company. They appeal to people who evaluate foods on an emotional basis only which is pretty much everybody! They say it is not cooked to appeal to raw feeders and they say it is heat processed to appeal to those that don’t like raw. How can it be both?? According to the nutritional information the company posts and depending on the diet their diets may not meet the most basic thing that a food should, which is meet the nutritional needs of the pet. As long as you don’t feed it consistently it should be fine. But why pay a premium price a food that comes out as it goes in? And why support a company that promotes feeding unbalanced diets to pets ?

Dori I hope this explains to you why I can’t currently recommend this company.

[Kim S]

Shawna thank you so much for replying! I have a dog that I rescued in July and she is about 1-1 1/2, has chronic ehrlichiosis, demodex and is in chronic renal failure due to renal dysphasia. She has survived longer than expected and seems to have a strong will to live. I have been researching quite a bit and have started acupuncture. I am working on trying to get her on a better diet but the vets are not crazy about the raw diet because she has such a poor immune system. They are researching the diet from Just For Dogs Food. I have started her on the Standard Process Renal Support and I am having a plumber install a reverse osmosis water filter system. She is on a pro-biotic also. She takes pressure meds and I put aluminum hydroxide powder in her food along with Nordic Omega 3. Her Potassium was normal this week but her BUN is back up to 57 and her phosphate is 8. I saw that the sprinkle fiber helps with the nitrogen. How much do you give her? Any other suggestions for the phosphate?

[Shawna]

OH NO!!! Pegripley and Kari K — I’m so sorry I missed your posts!!! My time is somewhat limited and for a long time I wasn’t able to log in to the forum side. Still don’t know why that happened?? If you still having questions please email me at shawnadfaemail@yahoo.com

Kim S – I use the Sprinkle Fiber in conjunction with the Primal Defense probiotic as needed (if Audrey seems depressed, or her breath gets a bit unpleasant etc). Audrey is nine pounds — I give her 1/2 to 1 full sized Primal Defense and 1/8 teaspoon of Sprinkle Fiber. I then give her more Sprinkle Fiber at the same dosage for subsequent meals until she is feeling better (usually, with her, only two or three meals). Audrey gets probiotic foods fairly often so I usually don’t have to give her more than one Primal Defense.

As mentioned in other post — I HIGHLY recommend Standard Process Canine Renal Support as well. And a raw diet if doable. Dr. Barbara Royal created a raw kidney disease diet for Darwins. http://www.darwinspet.com/our-raw-foods/our-raw-dog-food/intelligent-design-ks/#sthash.D8huiK2g.dpbs