[Spy Car]

Hey Molly,

I’d suggest you look into the Prey Model of feeding raw foods. I think it would be a better match for your desire to feed whole food ingredients to your dog, and is more healthful than Dr Picairn’s regimen which is heavy on vegetables and grain, and lacks soft edible bone.

Keeping the calcium:phosphorus ratios in the correct target range is important, but by feeding PMR ratios (10% soft edible bone) it is also pretty simple. Dogs get all the nutrients they need from eating diverse animal products.

Following the 80/10/10 model (“meat”/organs/soft edible bones) while diversifying the components is a very straightforward way to feed and get the highest nutritional levels to your dog.

The elaborate recipes of some raw feeding variants put a lot of needless strain on owners, and actually reduce the nutritional value of the diet.

Soft edible bones (like chicken bones) are a great natural source of calcium. Chewing bone also tends to keep dog’s teeth clean, and it promotes strong teeth, strong jaw and neck muscles, and it relaxes dogs to chew.

Best wish on your journey.

Bill

[anonymously]

/forums/topic/questions-concerning-raw/#post-89920

[Molly F]

Hey all!
Brand new to the site and to raw feeding!
I am probably going to be working off Dr. Pitcairn’s recipes, and I had a question about supplements. I’d prefer whole food ingredients, so I’m probably going to use eggshell for calcium. I’m wondering if eggs themselves could provide enough vitamin A? I’m thinking of doing an egg based meal in the morning and meat and grain in the evening, using whole sardines for the omegas. I’m going to check with some local meat producers to get the healthiest meat available and will probably add bones at some point. I read that turkey leg bones aren’t really safe (feel free to add your experience) but what about raw chicken legs?
My puppy is a 7 1/2 mo old German Shepherd from fairly beefy stock (dad was 110lbs, mom was 80!!!), so of course I’ve gotten myself all scared about proper calcium ratios. If I give her whole sardines, those bones shouldn’t throw off the ratios too much, right?

[Spy Car]

PMR calls for 10% secreting organs (half of that being liver). Vitamin D is fat-soluble, so it is stored in the body and need not be supplied in the same levels daily.

Personally, I feed 10% organs daily with one day being liver and the alternate day being kidney, pancreas, spleen, or other to avoid getting “behind,” which “balance over time” (a preference of some raw feeders, but not an intrinsic part of PRM) practices can lead to if people don’t actually keep organs in the weekly diet.

I’m still not seeing that it is obvious how Vitamin D levels were critically low if Toby was getting PMR levels of liver, plus eggs and other Vitamin D sources on a fairly regular basis.

Bill

[Karen B]

What about the new air dried Real Meat? All, K9 Natural, Vital Essentials and Northwest Naturals raw??

[mary s]

I had two Irish Setters with IBD…they were brothers. It showed up at about 5 or 6 months of age. Bloody, mucus filled poops. I went through several vets because I did not want to use steroids. One boy was 58 pounds and the other was 52 pounds at the onset. After I finally put them on a homemade raw diet (the commercial raw diets did not work for them…I think because of the organ meats in them) and supplements, their poops normalized and they went to 82 and 75 pounds. They have recently passed away…one had a fibrosis in his lungs that I think was caused by the IBD. They had good years once I got the IBD under control. I hope you are able to do that with diet. The raw diet and supplements are what saved them. I forgot to add….I also used the homeopathic remedies Nux Vomica and Arsenicum Album.
Best of luck

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by mary s.

[pitlove]

Hi Mary-

Congratulations on your new puppy. Sounds like he is going to be a big boy!

In regards to your specific questions, the list from 2013 is her most current list. Hound Dog Mom has been unable to contribute to the forums lately so the list has not been updated. Any company from that list you are considering I would email and ask for a nutrient analysis to confirm that the Ca and Phos levels have not changed. I would then input them into the calcium calculator on this site to double check that it falls within the safe ratios. Not only for the Ca and Phos, but also for the calorie to Ca ratio.

I agree with your vet about waiting to begin a raw diet until after the critical growth phase. And when you do decide to try raw selecting a random recipe from a book or the Internet is not advised. It would be wiser to use a commercial raw diet from a reputable company to ensure proper nutrient levels. Do not buy into the “balance over time” concept. Proponents of this believe that a diet that is not balanced daily can be balanced over time. It is thought that because many humans do not each balanced meals daily, dogs can also do the same. What they forget is that those individuals not eating balanced meals daily often end up with adverse affects later in life. Same is true for our pets.

In regard to Orijen Puppy Large, yes they did reformulate for more appropriate calcium levels.

[HoundMusic]

Have you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?

They get at least 5% organ meats, if not slightly more, and most of that is beef liver. I also feed egg yolks for Vit D., and occasionally give unsalted butter for that, iodine & Omega 3.

The raw, prey model diet, however, does not take into account daily nutritional requirements of dogs, but utilizes a “balance over time” method – so if any deficiency was present, balancing a diet over time and not on a daily basis would likely contribute to the already low levels of Vit. D, which, if allowed to continue with Toby not meeting the requirement for his vitamins on a daily basis, would eventually lead to osteomalacia. My Vet did not have to offer that explanation. I think it’s obvious.

[aimee]

Hi Courtney,

In regards to your questions:

I would get full blood panels on each dog prior to starting your new diet so that you have a baseline to compare back to. I’ve seen it recommended to repeat blood panels every 6 months for dogs on homemade diets.

Some feel comfortable feeding bones.. I do not… I do not think the risk is worth the benefit. If using raw bone as your calcium source I feel finely ground is much safer. Disclosure: I do not feed a raw diet. If I did I’d either use a commercial HPP product or would buy large cuts and partially cook to kill off the bacteria both on the surface and those that have migrated deeper and grind myself. I remain unconvinced that dogs tolerate food borne pathogens significantly better then people do.

What supplements you use are up to your own personal philosophy. The primary concern is that you feed a balanced diet. Unfortunately, when the raw diets that people were feeding have been analyzed, most people who participated in the study did not accomplishing this.

I understand the appeal of a simple 80/10/10 mix but honestly I think it requires just as much attention to detail to balance a raw diet as it does to balance a cooked diet.

There are a few veterinary nutritionists that will balance a raw diet, most will not. Veterinary nutritionists legally can not consult directly with you unless they examine your dog which is why you found that they do not do phone/e mail consults. However they can consult indirectly via your veterinarian. Your vet orders the consult and works with the nutritionist on your behalf.

In regards to carbohydrates, people do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates and dogs do not either. Both species require carbohydrate from a metabolic standpoint, the body just has to generate what the diet doesn’t supply. But I don’t understand this statement “Carbohydrates carry significantly less calories by volume than protein does” Protein and carbs are considered to carry the same number of calories /gram, the volumes involved will depend on the water content.

[mary s]

Hello pitluv – I am new to the forum. I am getting an 8 week old Irish Setter in a few days. I have been reading this thread for a many hours (whew!) and first want to say a huge thank you to all….especially Hound Dog Mom. My puppy has been on Iams large breed puppy food. I will want to transition him to another food asap. He is 7 weeks old and weighs 14 pounds! That seems like a lot to me…but I haven’t had a setter puppy in 12 years. I have the lists, and HDM’s comments read, and am leaning towards The Honest Kitchen and Fromm’s large breed puppy. I will feed him raw eventually, but my vet is saying to wait until about 8 months because he is a Setter. I stopped reading at 850 comments, and would like to know if there is a newer list after that (around Sept, 2013) that HDM may have posted/compiled. The last list I am referring to is where she included raw and grain inclusive? Also, I read a comment you made a few days ago about Orijin reformulating the large breed puppy…is that correct? Is it now acceptable for the LBP list HDM started a few years ago? I remember she did not recommend it back then. Thank you.

[Courtney R]

Being from 1973 doesn’t make it any less valid. Dogs wouldn’t go from not needing starches to needing them in a 40 year period, evolution doesn’t work that quickly.

And the book isnt written by vets, its written National Research Council. It’s used by colleges to educate veterinary nutritionists.

My vet meant exactly what he said ,which is that dogs don’t NEED carbs. Meaning, it’s not harmful to remove them.

If you feed your kibble with toppers and your dog does well, then great! However, I feed my dogs quality kibble and they are not doing great on it so I am looking in to alternatives, one of which is raw. Basically, I’m educating myself in exactly the same way I do when it comes to making food choices for myself. I would never rely solely on what one person says regarding my diet, be it my doctor, my personal trainer or some whackadoo on the internet. Why would I do that for my dog?

[Spy Car]

There is no doubt about what mineral imbalances are present, because the blood chemistry panel tests for everything. Both his levels of calcium & phosphorous were normal (Ca 9.2 & Phos 4.1), while he displayed no signs whatsoever of liver problems, which is what low ALP usually indicates. So by process of elimination, it was determined that his vitamin D levels were lacking. I have no reason to disbelieve the Vet, and my own research is only confirming what he told me.

********

Have you been feeding PMR levels of liver (5%)? If so, did your vet offer an explanation of how your dog might have a Vitamin D deficiency?

I wonder (and don’t know) over what period of time a blood test establishes a proper calcium-phosphorus balance? Is it a snap-shot in time (and variable in reflecting recent meals, or does it show a longer term value?

Fellow raw feeders should be aware that osteomalacia can be brought on not only by Vitamin D deficiencies, but also by calcium-phosphorus imbalances due to feeding the improper ratios of meat, bones, and organs.

Best wishes with your dog.

Bill

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by Spy Car.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by Spy Car.

[Courtney R]

My comments about carbohydrates?
Well, theres this study on (working) sled dogs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4734973
That showed that despite their level of rigorous activity they actually perform better on high fat, high protein diets.

Or maybe this educational textbook:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10668/nutrient-requirements-of-dogs-and-cats
That states that there’s no requirement of digestible carbohydrates in dogs diets.

And there’s my vet, who explicitly told me there’s no need for dogs to eat carbs, it’s just nearly impossible to make dry kibble without them.

And I’m not decided on anything, I’ve just posted questions regarding feeding raw in a raw forum. Why would I post my questions about preparing cooked food for my dogs in a raw forum, when obviously no one in that forum cooks their food??

[crazy4cats]

Hi Courtney R-

Have you ever checked out the http://www.balanceit.com website? It’s a site that allows you to formulate free recipes for healthy dogs and cats. You can choose protein, carb, veggie and/or fruits of your choice. You then can taylor it to your dog’s weight and whatever percetage of fat and protein you want to feed. You do need to buy their supplement to balance it with the proper vitamins and minerals as well.

If your pet has a health condition, they will work with your vet to formulate the recipes for you. Check it out. I have a few recipes that I feed my dogs every now and then.

Good luck!

Edit: BTW, this site is only for cooked home made food, no raw.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by crazy4cats.

[Courtney R]

This link is useful, thank you! I’m guessing you’re a different anonymous user as this diet encourages feeding meat raw lol. I obviously haven’t read through all of it thoroughly (I will), but I wonder about carbs. Dogs don’t need them, and they don’t seem to agree with my dogs, so I’m looking to eliminate them. I wonder if I put that 45-55% towards protein if this would no longer be balanced or if I would just be feeding less? I’ll definitely read through this, and thanks again for posting it.

[Courtney R]

I get that there are dangers to feeding raw and I don’t criticize anyone for trying to make others aware of that fact. All I was trying to say is that a lot of the links posted aren’t particularly useful. For example, the recipe posted earlier was basically chicken, rice and a supplement. I feed my dogs chicken and rice (a bland diet) if they have diarrhea, it’s not really something I would consider balanced and even if I added a supplement it’s not something I would want to feed my dogs routinely or long term. Like I said, I’ve also been researching home cooked meals and am open to them, but from everything I’ve been reading it actually seems MORE difficult to ensure dogs are receiving balanced nutrition from home cooked as opposed to raw. I don’t want to end up in an emergency clinic because of what I’m feeding them (cooked or raw) which is why I’m trying to diligently do my homework.

[anonymously]

“To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads”.

I am someone who has tried raw diets for my pets, as I would speculate the others that are trying to alert you to the possible dangers probably are.
I don’t enjoy going to the emergency veterinary clinics.

PS: I am an RN and have owned dogs for a few decades.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by anonymously.

[Courtney R]

To whomever the anonymous person is: I see these Skeptvet articles linked in a lot of the raw threads. I’m not in the least opposed to home cooking for my dogs. In fact that was the first thing I looked into after deciding to get them off kibble. I imagine a lot of people do the same. Feeding raweat to my pets is, quite frankly, a little scary.

However, I can’t find much useful information on formulating a home cooked diet. Recipes, sure, but I want something that gives me numbers/formulas/percentages. Maybe I’m weird but I want to just Google recipes and start trying random things. I like that prey model operates on an 80/10/10 and I can sit down and calcute how much meat, bone and organs to feed them. I also like that there’s no starches (potatoes, rice, etc) involved as I am trying to avoid those in their diet.

What I’m getting at is if you know any good sites, books, articles etc that will teach me how to formulate a diet that meets all their nutritional requirements I would love to read it. Im just not finding either of the links you posted particularly informative.

To inkedmarie: So glad I’m not the only one who feels overwhelmed! 😊

[InkedMarie]

I felt pretty overwhelmed; no lie. I feed grinds because my husband isn’t interested in. True prey model raw but we do feed turkey necks & beef rib bones. For us, grinds are easy: thre the scale, scoop in, add supplements & feed.

I buy from Hare today; Google for the website. There is a ton of info there and if you have questions, email them. Tracy is the owner and very helpful.

[anonymously]

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/ (excerpt below, click on link for full article)
“Raw diets are another popular option on the market today. Studies have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry and 80% of raw food dog diets tested contained Salmonella. This poses a health risk for your pet, but also for humans. This is especially true for children or immunocompromised adults, whether exposed to the raw food directly, or the feces of the pet eating the raw food. Additionally, there is increased risk of other bacterial infections and parasitic diseases when feeding raw diets. And the bottom line is there is no reason to believe raw food is healthier than cooked food”.
http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes
More information below:

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

[Susan]

Hi Caryn, you have to realise vets aren’t nutritionist & some vets know stuff all about nutrition for dogs & cats….. a good vet would be telling you to feed a balanced raw or cooked diet to your dog & cat, not a kibble….
You should always rotate between a few different brand kibbles & different proteins when feeding a kibble, never just feed the one brand & same protein their whole lives like some people do….also add fresh whole foods to the kibble…. They have found by adding 1 tablespoon of cooked veggies/fruit or a protein to the dogs kibble just 3 times a week can reduce the chances of them getting cancer.. …follow “Rodney Habib” the Pet nutrition blogger on Face Book he’s excellent & it’s so easy to make your dog healthier, happier & live longer…since dogs have been eating just kibble they aren’t living as long as when they were fed table scraps & cooked meals..

When picking a good kibble, look at the ingredients, a good kibble should have at least 3-5 proteins as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th ingredient, then should have a carb like sweet potatoes as the next ingredient….. also when the ingredients are written, the ingredients are raw, not cooked yet except if it says meal eg, chicken meal, lamb meal, duck meal etc also the ingredient list is written on weight, so when ingredients are cooked the ingredients shrink, especially proteins/meats, a good kibble should read Lamb, then Lamb Meal, chicken meal, or turkey, turkey meal, chicken meal etc when it says meal there’s more meat cause the meal is cooked meats dried & made into powder form (meal) but when it just say chicken or lamb or duck, it’s raw & hasn’t been cooked yet it needs the meal to follow, duck then duck meal or chicken then chicken meal etc… also if it say’s fish or ocean fish you want to know what type of fish it is?? it should say salmon, salmon meal or Whitefish, Sardines or Anchovy …..
Have a look at “Canidae” Pure formulas grain free & their Life Stages formulas, their Life Stages, All Life Stages formula is a good kibble, it has 4 high quality meat meals, chicken, turkey, lamb & fish & is a pretty good price when you buy a 20kg bag, then look for another premium kibble & I rotate in the same day some times, I give Patch his “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain for breakfast then he has Canidae Life Stages formula for dinner when I forget to take out his cooked meal out of freezer…. Some people rotate when the bag of kibble is down too 1/4 of the bag left then start adding & mixing in the next new kibble your going to feed, after you have rotated a few different kibbles you don’t really need to slowly introduce anymore……You will see a difference when your dog is feed a better quality kibble that agrees with him, they have more energy, their coat shines, their poos are firm & smaller…. then pick about 3 different kibbles with different proteins & fed them but still keep your eye out for another kibble to try that’s on special or new..
Go onto the “Review” section & start looking at 3-5 star kibbles, I prefer a kibble with less ingredients, limited ingredient kibbles & I add fresh cooked food to the kibble, tin sardines in oil/spring water are excellent, I add tin Salmon in spring water, you ban add the salmon bones, you give about 3 small sardines or 1/4 of the small tin, also veggies broccoli, berries, apple, I fed pieces of peeled seeded apple, watermelon, rock melon as treats also yogurt Patch gets 1 heap spoon yogurt at 11 am every day now….3-4 years ago if I gave Patch anything different in his diet he’d have diarrhea, gas/farts, bad wind pain, rumbling, grumbling bowel noises, he’s a rescue that was feed a very poor diet & now has IBD & Skin & Food sensitivities…. Good Luck
*Canidae- http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products
*Sport Dog Elite Series- http://www.sportdogfood.com/dog-food/active-sporting/performance/
*Taste Of The Wild- http://www.tasteofthewild.com.au
*California Natural- http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products

[Courtney R]

So, I’m considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and I’m inwhat I’d call a “researching” phase. Did anyone else feel totally overwhelmed when starting this process or is that just me? Lol

Short background: I have a 60 lb ACD mix that is roughly 7 (Burke) and a 12 lb Pomchi that is 5 (Miles). They’ve been on Orijen for the past couple of years and so far as stools go it seems to agree with them. However, Burke has started getting lick granulomas roughly 2x per year, Miles chronically seems “yeasty”, they’ve both had UTIs this year and we got fleas for the first time ever this summer which has been an utter nightmare. My vet of course gave antibiotics for the UTIs but seems to not be concerned about the other stuff. But to me it seems their immune systems aren’t up to snuff and diets the easiest way at it.

Currently I have 3 questions which might seem totally unrelated:
#1. Should I have a blood panel done prior to starting raw just to be certain there isn’t any reason why it’d be unhealthy to switch them to raw? Seeing as they’re both having issues I’m doubting that would be the case, but I’m a worrier 😉

#2 Admittedly the bone business freaks me out. I’m sure I’ll get over it as I get more comfortable but I’ve been looking at the (chicken) grinds from Hare Today to start with. However, I wasn’t sure about the organ. From what I’ve read you should stick to muscle and bone in the beginning and work in organs preferably after you’ve transitioned through meat sources. Should I order the ground chicken feet and just supplement with some breast or thigh meat? Or maybe someone has another simple suggestion to avoid actual bones for a bit?

#3. They already get coconut oil, yogurt or kefir, salmon oil and digestive enzymes. Could I continue these through the transition or should I hold off and give their stomachs time to adjust to raw food? Also, any supplements that they absolutely NEED to have or is this kind of just up to me?

Sorry this wasn’t as short as I’d hoped but thanks so much for any help. This forum has already been a big assistance and I can’t wait to learn more from you guys!

[Ritchy]

Thank you both for the input!

Just thought I’d respond with the path we have decided on for now.

We are going with a mix using nature’s variety. We are doing 25% raw/75% kibble currently and eventually moving to a 50/50 mix. (I am so new to this, I’m not ready to jump into managing nutrient content on my own…probably too lazy/busy to ever get there 🙂 )

This will give us some raw in the diet from what seems to be a really good company.

I REALLY like their feeding guidelines calculator on their website. I was able to enter the weight of each of our dogs and if they needed to maintain or lose a few pounds, the mix and food selections and get an exact feeding guideline.

We are almost a week in now and I can already report a couple of good indicators:
– The dogs love it; they eat way too fast now.
– Their hair is already noticeably softer!

[Ritchy]

HoundMusic – I’d like to say thank you for your post. I am really new to raw, so this is very helpful.

…I’ve got to figure out how to update my avatar with my dogs image 🙂

[Anonymous]

My angel dog had cushings and I fed her venison with no grain, but also feed her frozen raw chicken dog food.

I was part of a cushings forum called K9Cushings they were my life line to getting through understanding everything that came along with the disease.

Good luck!

JP

[Philip L. P]

Milk Bones? Bad for your dogs, are you all freakin kidding me!

I don’t feed my dogs any form of dog food, I’ve moved the plants that make this stuff and I can guarantee you you’ll never see a filthier place! That my friends goes for those of the better brands also! Wouldn’t feed my dogs a Raw diet either… fresh, cooked, and frozen human food. As to the Milk Bones that’s a whole different story… I heard story’s about the video and claims that are supposed to state scientific fact that Milk Bones are bad for your dogs… and it all has been debunked as hogwash! There’s never been any such scientific study done on any of that. Not saying it is anything other than what it is meant to be ie.. a treat, treats aren’t supposed to be necessarily healthy same as candy for kids, liquor for adults, or drugs for addicts. But when it comes to Milk Bones you won’t find a better bone for your dog to chew on, or one that will keep your dogs teeth and breath clean. They aren’t supposed to be a meal, or even a supplement… they are supposed to be a treat and one that keeps the dogs teeth in good order. That has always worked for me, none of my dogs have ever had cavity’s, broken teeth, or even yellow teeth even in old age. Milk Bones have been around for over a hundred years and made in the USA. Keep giving your dogs those Nalgene bones and keep taking your dogs to the vets for dental work… as to the use of preservatives of any kind, use common sense in judging the produce, you can’t get away from their use completely. Some of you people take this stuff way too far! I get a kick out of hearing how well you all feed and take care of your dogs and cats, and then leave them play by them selves with toys that were made in china, let them alone out in the yard that has been sprayed with lawn and garden insecticides, fertilizers, and poisonous plants, animals take in more toxins than they’d ever get from Milk Bones from just being in your home. Crap think of all the stuff you all just use on your carpets, cleaners that you use on your floors, ant and roach killers that you use under your counters. You all are taking this healthier food stuff way too far sometimes, hell a couple hot dogs are better than no food at all. Give them love, companionship, a place to live, food and medical care when they need it and most times they’ll live to a good old age. Do what you can afford for your animals, its better than them being out on the streets on their own.

[anonymously]

Because, different diets and foods agree with different dogs. There is no one perfect food for all dogs. Raw is not worth the risk, in my opinion.
Be glad your friend has found a food that his dogs appear to be doing well on.
Hope this helps:

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

http://support.mspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=latestnews_GenericPetFoodRecipes

[Denise G]

$20 off all top brand name pets foods at Protein for Pets. All natural, raw and organic foods. Use promo code #272262 when ordering. Free shipping with min. order

[Laura H]

Hello. Good morning all.

Yesterday,talking to a friend,we discussed several brands of food and he mentioned(will name the brands) to have tried Taste of The Wild and ANF with his dogs,to me these are the best brands available where I live (Dominican Republic) & that both caused his dogs (a Little and a Mali) loose,smelly stools.

Then he proceeds to tell me that he is now feeding Royal canin(maxi) sensitive digestion and his dogs had no allergies,diarreha and their stool was small and had little smell.

How come this is possible if the food,in my opinion,has very bad ingredients. How come some brands make it appear like the dog is utilizing it and digesting it well?.

Is it because it has many ingredients that promote firm stool?.the dogs can’t possibly be digesting it so well and having no issues with such bad composition.

Thank you.

Sincerely. A baffled owner who feeds raw and wants to educate people.

[zcRiley]

For those who don’t home cook or do raw, I accidentally came across this site while researching new “brands” of grain free dry dog foods. It’s about ingredients and what they REALLY are or mean (as if we weren’t paranoid enough LOL). Great for analyzing a brand’s quality vs. its cost if you’re not an expert yet. Yes, even high quality kibble use words as smoke ‘n mirrors. Enjoy reading!

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pet_food_ingredients_8.html

Table of Contents:
1. Introduction
2. Why nutrition matters for your pets
3. Pet food ingredients listed by best to worst (part 1 of 2)
4. Pet food ingredients listed by best to worst (part 2 of 2)
5. Pet food ingredients listed by frequency of use in products (part 1 of 2)
6. Pet food ingredients listed by frequency of use in products (part 2 of 2)
7. Pet food ingredients listed alphabetically (part 1 of 2)
8. Pet food ingredients listed alphabetically (part 2 of 2)
9. Worst pet food ingredients

[christine k]

I have a service dog and she attends grad school with me. Wednesdays is our long days; eleven hours straight and she mostly sits still or rest, so by the end of the day, she’s pretty restless. She is 5 years old, 18-20 lbs, and a terrier mix.

What treats can I give her that isn’t big or gets terribly soggy, smelly and gross and will hold her attention at least 30-60 minutes? She doesn’t like rawhide or Himalayan bones very much. I’ve given her Busy Bones and she likes them and they last, but they’re a bit expensive.

[Dana D]

Does anyone know when (or if) Dog Food Advisor will be reviewing the new Orijen formula now made in the US??

I am in the process of transitioning my 3.5 year old black Lab from Orijen’s Canadian Adult formula to the new Orijen Original formula out of Kentucky. She’s now eating 50/50–old and new–and here’s what I see happening.

My Lab has always had allergies but it looks like she may be scratching and licking a little more than usual. I have increased her Zyrtec to twice a day (AM & PM) so we’ll see how that goes.

The one big thing I’ve noticed is that her stool is much firmer. She’s always eaten Orijen kibble and her stool has always been a little on the loose side–sometimes more than a little. Not with this US formula, though. Her stool is a lot firmer–completely normal actually–so I can definitely see how a dog that has had normal stools could now be somewhat constipated.

Orijen Customer Service [877-939-0006 if you want to call them] told me before I ordered the new formula that the only difference in the two is that there’s been an increase in the % of protein and also in the % of raw ingredients vs. dehydrated. Now that I can compare the two bags, as others have mentioned, it doesn’t look like that’s exactly true.

I have two 25-lb. bags of the US formula and 3/4 of a bag of the Canadian formula. I’m going to finish the transition and see how she does on the new formula alone. If the scratching get any worse or if she becomes constipated, we’re definitely leaving Orijen. Between their recent big price increase, now another smaller increase (when you calculate the cost /oz. for the smaller bag) and a new and possibly inferior formula, they may no longer be worth it.

[anonymously]

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?s=raw+diet

More Nonsense from Holistic Vets about Commercial Therapeutic Diets

Hope this helps:

By Klaus Loft, DVM
Angell Dermatology Service

Anyone who suffers debilitating environmental allergies tied to changing seasons, pet dander or household dust mites knows first-hand the misery of a scratchy throat, itchy eyes or painful rashes.

Not everyone knows, however, that our pets can experience similar allergic reactions — and other very bothersome dermatological issues. But our pets need not suffer in silence. Modern veterinary science has evolved such that advanced, comprehensive treatments are now available to treat a range of skin conditions.

Top pet dermatological issues

Our four-legged friends suffer from some of the same skin issues as we do — and several that we do not. The most common conditions we see at Angell include:

•Parasites, such as mites, fleas and mange (scabies)
•Infectious diseases, such as Staphylococcal pyoderma (“Staph”) skin infections, yeast and fungal infections and skin fold infections
•Systemic diseases, such as autoimmune diseases
•Skin cancer, such as Squamous cell carcinoma, cutaneous lymphoma, Mast cell tumors
•Allergies, such as flea allergy dermatitis, adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, etc.

All of these conditions can become serious and, if untreated, dramatically reduce quality of life. But the tremendous strides made in veterinary innovation, however, is very good news for our pets. Specifically, the testing and treatments for allergies now rivals human healthcare in its sophistication, quality of care and long-term health outcomes.

Unlike humans, dogs and cats cannot tell us about their dermatological health issues. So we as pet owners must look for the signs. The most common indicators that a pet is suffering from some kind of allergy involve frequent episodes of ear infections, red raised or open sores on the skin, constant licking or biting of paws or groin — sometimes causing wounds that will not go away.

Allergies present a particular challenge because there can be hundreds (even thousands) of potential allergens that impact pet health, from foods to pollen from grasses, weeds, trees, dust mites and more. Today’s specialty veterinary hospitals have access to the very latest diagnostic tests to get to the bottom of what’s ailing our pet. Among these tests is the Intra Dermal Test (IDT).

IDT is generally considered the gold standard of testing for identifying allergens that cause pets to suffer from chronic skin and/or ear diseases. IDT involves injections of a series of concentrated allergens into the skin to determine which of them generate allergic reactions in a given animal. The use of fluorescein — a chemical that illuminates the inflammation caused by the injected allergens in order to visualize the strength of individual reactions — is key to accurately diagnosing pet allergies, and is just one of the many ways veterinarians use new technologies to improve care and diagnostics.

The results of IDT (as well as a review of the pet’s medical history) can then inform comprehensive immunotherapy treatments to relieve suffering. Veterinary dermatologists rely on IDT to build customized treatment plans for patients called Allergen Specific Immuno Therapy or “ASIT” for short.

ASIT involves a series of injections specifically created for the allergic animal’s skin. These injections, of diluted allergens, are designed to make a pet less sensitive to their allergens over time. In most cases these injections must be continued for life to reduce symptoms, but they are highly effective. Seventy to 90 percent of pets experience a reduction in symptoms as a result of ASIT treatment. These treatments can be delivered even more easily via droplets under the tongue, perfect for pet owners who are squeamish about giving injections to their pet.

This treatment is very new to the North American field of medicine (both human and veterinary) and underscores just how far innovation in veterinary medicine has come.

When it’s time to see the vet

Many pet owners are understandably concerned about taking their animals to the veterinarian because the cost (to say nothing of the fear some animals experience when going do the doctor) may outweigh any perceived reduction in suffering. To help pet owners know when it’s time to bring Fido to the doctor I’ve compiled my “Top Ten” list of dermatological symptoms that should never be ignored:

•Intense itching of the skin (head shaking, running the face into the carpet, furniture, etc.)
•Biting at the skin that creates red, raw crusting areas of the skin
•Multiple ear infections (head shaking, odor from ears, scratching at the ears with hind legs)
•Paw licking or chewing and frequent infections of the skin in the webbed skin of the paws
•Staining of the fur of the paws and nails on multiple feet
•Reoccurring skin infections in the groin, under the shoulders, perianal areas (on or under the tail)
•Greasy scaling skin and/or fur with odorous skin
•Hair loss, or thinning of the fur
•Dark pigmentation of the skin that is chronically infected
•Sudden depigmentation of skin

Allergies and other dermatological issues can be as frustrating for pet owners and their veterinarians as they can be for pets. I encourage any pet owner whose animal is experiencing any of these symptoms to consult with their veterinarian.

[frani v]

after skin conditions, mainly scratching and inflammation we changed to raw food diet, but about 6 months later he broke out in a skin condition, we suspected that it was maybe a break in the cold chain but had no evidence. We changed him to a Scientific formula dry pellet food and after about one year his skin condition returned; we then made homecooked food

1.5 kg chicken breast
2 kg broccoli
2 kg carrots
2 kg butternut
This would last about 10days but after 7 months his skin broke out severly and it was inflamed ; the skin became flaky; cracked; like a cracked heel and skin broke open like a wound, we had a skin break out every 2months and our vet used cortisone injections….we have weaned him off cortisone and hes back on a fish/potato based scientific dry pellet food; hes on strong antibiotics; the skin biopsy revealed pyroderma; we have a specially prepared mixture of shampoo to kill yeast and bacterial infections; we changed his antibiotic after one month with no results; we now use a stronger one; we STOPPED giving him all human food; we have introduced ATOPICA which is a new drug that acts like cortisone with much less side effects – the skin condition is under his one armpit – hes an indoor dog who has cotton bedding washed with very little chemicals and no fabric softners.. ..I would appreciate all comments. thanks

[HoundMusic]

If you’ve been feeding Prey Model Raw levels of liver (5%) I’d suspect the cause of the Osteomalacia was due to an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus levels in the diet, as opposed to insufficient Vitamin D.

There is no doubt about what mineral imbalances are present, because the blood chemistry panel tests for everything. Both his levels of calcium & phosphorous were normal (Ca 9.2 & Phos 4.1), while he displayed no signs whatsoever of liver problems, which is what low ALP usually indicates. So by process of elimination, it was determined that his vitamin D levels were lacking. I have no reason to disbelieve the Vet, and my own research is only confirming what he told me.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[Spy Car]

If you’ve been feeding Prey Model Raw levels of liver (5%) I’d suspect the cause of the Osteomalacia was due to an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus levels in the diet, as opposed to insufficient Vitamin D.

Feeding 10% bone (as the PRM calls for) should keep Ca:P near the optimal 1.2:1 ratio. Unfortunately too many raw feeders are contemptuous of the need to maintain the correct mineral balance by carefully considering the amount of meat vs bones (and organs) are being fed, and too often too much bone gets fed as a result. Too little bone (relative to meat) can also be a problem with Osteomalacia.

I’d advise doubling down on your understanding of the edible bone content in the ingredients you are feeding with a determined effort put into balancing the calcium:phorosphus ratios in the diet, as this is the likely source of the problem.

Bill

[Susan]

Hi, do you follow Rodney Habib, Pet Nutrition Blogger on his Face Book page? he had a post about Rickets the begin of the year, he recommends adding tin sardines in spring water or oil to Raw/Cooked diet… https://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib/?pnref=story
Sardines are suppose to be excellent & have vitamin D, B-6, A, C, B, Calcium, Omega 3 for skin, Magnesium, Iron…. & they’re cheap 69c a tin…Garlic is excellent to get rid of fleas, add some to diet, I live Australia & Garlic is added to most of our kibbles….. I hope Toby is feeling better soon…

[Karen B]

I do rescue and have had 3 large breed puppies with SIBO. All 3 have intermittent diarrhea and periodic vomiting. All 3 cleared with no reoccuramce after 6 weeks of Tylan powder aka Tylosin twice a day for 6 weeks and a raw diet. Dosage for the Tylan is:
<10 lbs: 1/16 Tsp BID on food
11-25 lbs: 1/12 Tsp BID on food
26-50 lbs: 1/8 Tsp BID on food
50+ lbs: 1/4 Tsp BID on food

As for the raw diet, Steve’s works well and they will deliver for free (rawpetfood.com)

[HoundMusic]

Thank you for sharing. Your story could be helpful to other raw/homemade feeders. Of course he decided to show symptoms on a Holiday! That’s what they do. Lol!

Ha! It’s a tradition in my household that dogs will get sick, specifically on Labor Day. My first Beagle, and two others aside from Toby, all needed emergency Vet treatment on that holiday. Not even joking.

But in all seriousness, you could have knocked me over with the ghost of a feather when the Vet said rickets. I am no raw novice and thought myself more Vit. D conscientious than that. I give raw yolks and butter along with bones specifically for the Vit. D content, and still, this happened, so I am hoping other raw feeders will read this and double check their diet plans…

ETA: Also wanted to add that I was giving cod liver oil way back when I began raw feeding, and it seems I’ll have to start doing that again, if my other sources aren’t providing enough.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[Jenn H]

As much of a pain it is to deal with fleas I agree. Ticks however are another matter. They cause problems worse than fleas.
I’ve been using a homemade repellant using essential oil and almond oil. Here in the Northeast ticks are everywhere all year.
It’s been surpringly effective. The only drawback is you have to put it on every day. It takes 2 seconds. The hardest part was remembering to do it until it became routine.
I have little bottle of it at home and in the Jeep so if they go swimming I can reapply.

As for heartworm I stopped it completely. Every 4 months I bring a fecal to the vet for testing. Heartworm preventative are nothing more than pesticides that kill the parasites. If they don’t have the parasites why should I feed them pesticides? By testing samples in that interval it catches them at the larva stage. Still young enough to not need the intense heartworm treatment of full grown worms.
Part of heartworm treatment is giving high doses of the monthly preventative. I just can’t feed them poison if they don’t need it.

I think it’s important to note that a lot of the drug companies that make these products have been bought & sold to other drug companies. Sometimes they change formulas.
Another thing to keep in mind is that many pests are evolving to tolerate some pesticides. So companies have to change things to try to keep up with nature.
I’ve just decided to try to repel the pests using natural means and dealing with any that get past it only if necessary. I’m done with making my animals sick trying to keep them from getting sick.

[InkedMarie]

Let me throw a cheaper option: order grinds from Hare Today, Reel Raw, Raw Feeding Miami, etc. I buy grinds with meat/bone/organ/some have tripe…I add a scoop of tripe to those that don’t. It’s prey model raw in ground form. I add eggs 3x weekly, salmon oil & stuff for fleas/ticks and a joint supplement. All you need is a scale!

[InkedMarie]

For the OP, if you’re still reading, I have experience with yeast with one dog.
The only thing that ultimately worked was a raw diet with no produce. What kind of raw were you feeding? If you were feeding a premade raw, they looking at buying grinds from Hare Today, Raw Feeding Miami, My Pet Carnivore, Reel Raw…..you can also do raw from the grocery store (meat/bone/organ)

[crazy4cats]

Hi HoundMusic-

Thank you for sharing. Your story could be helpful to other raw/homemade feeders. Of course he decided to show symptoms on a Holiday! That’s what they do. Lol!

I’ve not heard of dogs with this issue before. I hope your Toby makes a full recovery!

[crazy4cats]

Hi Ritchy-
In my opinion, given the two choices, I would choose Nature’s Variety. The company has a very good reputation. I mix raw with kibble with no issue in about half of my dogs meals. Most of the other meals they get canned mixed in their kibble.

However, I’m not sure if your plan will fix your dogs’ health issues. What are you feeding now? Please reply back on what you decide and how they do with the change. Good luck!

[HoundMusic]

I’m a newbie to these forums, but am no novice to raw feeding – been doing raw in some form, either 100% or as a supplement for about 15yrs now. Since 2014, its been an all raw, prey model type diet consisting mostly of chicken quarters pork meat and neck bones, a variety of organ meats (but mostly beef liver), ground beef, egg yolks, turkey necks and occasional meats like lamb ribs, fish or ground turkey. They also get “extras” and leftovers that amount to a small portion of the diet.

That aside, I’ve been noticing all summer that Toby, an intact male Beagle who will be 11yrs in October, hasn’t seemed in the greatest health, but there was nothing specific I could point my finger at, so I chalked it up to age. Fleas have been plaguing him, which made me further suspect something was wrong, especially after treatment did very little to help.

Over the past few days, the fleas have been back with a vengeance untold, and this morning, out of the blue, Toby came back in from the yard, lay down in a corner, and wouldn’t get up. There were no other symptoms, just a sudden lameness that seemed to pass in a few minutes. But it was very worrying, and he seems to have lost some weight in the past few days, so I decided it was Vet time. That, and in May, he had a partial obstruction from a pork neck bone, and the Vet told me then the only abnormality of the blood test results was “elevated liver enzymes”. So of course, my first thought is possible liver failure going on here :/

It was no fun finding a Vet on Labor Day, let me tell you, but we seemed to get a competent one, for once. I did NOT mention Toby is raw fed, btw. Another CBC was done, and like before, everything came back smack in the middle of normal – except, his ALP levels (alkaline phosphatase) were once again high (@ 228). But with no other signs of liver abnormalities in the blood results, this Vet was as stumped as the first one was as to why it should be elevated, unless it was osteomalacia, which he said was odd in a dog Toby’s age.

When I asked what precisely that was, the Vet told me I already knew it by a more common name. Rickets. Or rather, it’s technically called rickets before the growth plates close, and osteomalacia is the adult version.

I may have emitted an expletive, because how else can a dog get rickets, save for a home made diet that has been lacking in Vitamin D? I haven’t had the greatest luck with Vets in my life, but I was grateful that when I did mention raw feeding, all I got was the Knowing Look, an admonition that Toby would not be the first raw fed dog he’d seen with rickets (!!!), and a prescription for Vitamin D tablets for dogs. He did not try to push kibble on me or say another word about raw… he didn’t need to 🙁

Don’t have the faintest idea where we’re going from here, but Toby is on his Vit D and does not seem to be holding the incident against me. I’ve had my stumbling blocks with raw in the past, which is why I usually limited it to supplementation, but this has to be the worst problem I’ve ever had diagnosed. And honestly, if not for the strain put on his health with the fleas, I would never have noticed anything out of the ordinary with this dog. He seemed perfectly healthy otherwise.

So. Just blowing off some steam at the day’s events, my own stupidity, and thought this might be interesting fodder for other raw feeders. And btw, I am told that bad teeth can be a dead giveaway symptom of rickets, as well, and yet, Toby has the best teeth out of everybody…

• This topic was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by HoundMusic.

[Ritchy]

We’ve got two Cocker Spaniels that we would like to convert to a raw diet to address health issues – primarily skin, joint and teeth.

One is 13 and the other a rescue that we think is probably 8 now. Both are right at 34 lbs.

I don’t think I have the time/knowledge to make my own, so looking at commercial options.

I have a budget that allows me to afford $200/month, and I’ve narrowed it down to two options (I’m open to other suggestions), and wonder if I can get opinions from experienced raw feeders?

1) Go with a 50/50 mix of Nature’s Variety Instinct frozen raw and Nature’s Variety Instinct kibble.

Or

2) 100% Raw using Steve’s Real Food

I like the bite sized frozen option with both, which seems to make feeding easy.

I can find nothing but good reviews on Nature’s Variety Instinct, but just can’t afford the $400/month it would take to feed 100% raw.

Steve’s Real Food seems to get a few bad reviews here and there. Poor customer service notes, and the product seems to possibly be less consistent, and maybe doesn’t have the real bone that Instinct does. Also, it has higher than recommended fat.

Any suggestions – better to go with a 50/50 mix with good quality, or really, is Steve’s Real Food actually very good, and better to fully convert?

I’m not sure if a mix, really digests well and realizes the benefit of raw…

Any feedback/guidance is greatly appreciated!

[Susan]

Hi Joseph, have a look at “Canidae” Pure Formulas, Pure Sea is suppose to be excellent for dogs with skin problems… http://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products
also Baths are a must, twice a week, I use Malaseb Medicated Shampoo on my yeasty, itchy, red paws boy but since he’s been eating “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain Roasted Lamb & a cooked meal for dinner, he hasn’t smelt or itch over 6 months now, but I still bath him every fortnight…. I have finally worked out what foods he’s sensitive too & don’t feed those ingredients no more…..
For dinner Patch gets, Lean Beef Rissole with broccoli, kale, parsley, Flax & Almond Meal, Turmeric powder & a whisked egg, all blended in a blender then mixed thru the lean beef mince & made into 1 cup size rissoles & baked in the oven, cool then freeze….I also boil peeled & cut up sweet potato, then cool & freeze in sections… I take out 1 rissole & a piece of sweet potato for Patches dinner, I sometimes use lean pork mince instead of the Beef Mince… I also give apple pieces as a treat, yogurt thats sugar & fat free, raw almonds 3-4 Almonds a day as a treat.. Follow Rodney Habib on Face Book he just posted a raw/cooked balanced recipe made by Dr Karen Becker & Steve Brown..

[Joseph w]

I have a 4 year old bull terrier names Bodger. He is normally 65lbs but the last year he shot up to 72lbs. We lowered his food intake to 1 cup a day but he wasn’t losing any weight so we took him in for a blood test thinking he had a thyroid issue but it turned out negative and we suspect he has iiatrogenic Cushing’s from off and in use of prednisone for use with his skin issues. Now that we can no longer use prednisone we are trying to figure out a good diet for him. We use to use homemade raw which possibly worked better than what we have him on now but if it did it was slight. Before raw his normal food was Arcana or Orijen. It is now Avaderm which is the best he’s had since raw but we are no longer able to afford raw. One if his main skin problems is yeast infections on his feet constantly, ears somewhat often and around his anus sometimes and very rarely around mouth and eyes. I need a non yeast/starch/sugar/grain/ low carb kibble, with probiotics Which I plan in supplementing with a whole slew of home remedies and iver the counter products I’ve been researching. I was looking at wellness Tru food and it meets almost all the criteria except has about 40% carbs. Any ideas?

[Susan]

Hi Mandee, I cook Patches dinner meal separate then some nights when cooking for myself I add a extra potato & veggies for Patch as well & thenadd a tin of tuna or tin salmon in spring water drained & give 1/2 to Patch for dinner & put the other 1/2 in the fridge for the next night dinner…. I follow Rodney Habib on F/B he’s a Pet Nutrition Blogger. http://www.facebook.com/rodneyhabib/?pnref=story
Rodney is always posting excellent post he just posted a raw balanced recipe made by Dr Karen Becker & Steve Brown that you can feed raw or cooked & buy all the ingredients at
supermarket… I sort of make the same recipe for Patch minus the ginger powder & hemp oil cause Patch has IBD 3-4 yrs ago if I feed what Patch is eating now he’d probably have diarrhea, its taken a few years for his stomach & bowel heal, I’m glad I didn’t listen to vets cause poor Patch would be stuck on a vet diet that made him smell itch & have acid reflux..
I buy lean beef mince then the next time I buy Pork mince I use to buy chicken but Patch has food sensitivities to chicken & gets red paws & itchy skin, I have a mini blender, I add some raw broccoli, parsley, kale, almond & flax meal about 1 teaspoon, turmeric powder about 1/2 a teaspoon & blend in the blender then add & mix thru the mince meat & add 1 whisked egg & mix thru then make 1 cup size rissoles & bake on a baking tray in oven… then I freeze them all when cooled & I also boil a cut up sweet potato, then freeze the boiled pieces as well then take out in the morning for dinner… I have to feed Patch 4 meals a day, at 7am he gets his 1 cup TOTW kibble then I give him a snack around 11am either some peeled apple or yogurt that’s sugar & fat free, then at lunch time, I either feed 1/2 cup kibble or scrambled egg on toast or today I tried Peanut Butter on toast for the first time, dogs love peanut butter..
but I have to watch his weight it just drops off so I have to make sure I keep his calories up he needs 1000-1100 calories a day… then at 5pm he gets his cooked rissole & sweet potato or 1 cup of his TOTW kibble, then at 8pm he has 1/3 a cup TOTW kibble…if he was a normal dog & didn’t have IBD I’d probably just feed 2-3 meals a day & I’d feed a raw diet….if he keeps doing well I was thinking of trying Raw Diet again its easier there’s no cooking….
There’s a few healthy cooks groups on F/B there’s, Monica Segal called-K9 Kitchen, Cooking For Dogs, Home Cooking For Dogs, Queeniechi Says Cook Homemade dog food & Canine Nutrition & Natural Health run by Cat Lane its more healthy supplements to feed when dog has illness..
.. but I love Rodney Habib the best & most of these people follow Rodney.. Good-Luck

[Jane E]

what about a prepared raw food?