[weimlove]

Sounds great, thanks for all your help! Im gonna start his cold turkey switch in about a week so I will let you know how everything goes! Oh yeah, I saw some chicken thighs for sale at Walmart last night. It said they contained chicken broth and natural flavoring. Is that ok to feed?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yeah, you always want to use vitamin e. You can continue the same fish oil or switch it up, it’s not a huge deal if you don’t switch but I do like to rotate my dogs’ fats as well. I generally alternate between sardine oil, anchovy oil and salmon oil (I’m thinking about trying krill oil when I’m out of the fish oil I have now) and I also give cod liver oil every other day. I add a plant-based fatty acid daily too, three days a week I give coconut oil and the other three I give a flax, borage and evening primrose blend. Just mixing kelp and alfalfa would be fine – if you have to give any trace nutrient supplement I would say those two would be your best bet. You can order both in powder form from starwest botanicals. I make my own whole food supplement and while I do rotate out certain ingredients and rotate in new ingredients every month or so I always keep kelp and alfalfa in the supplement.

[weimlove]

Ok, great. For next time, would it be ok to still use vitamin e and fish oil, but instead of pet kelp just mix kelp and alfalfa?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Yeah, definitely. Vitamin e, fish oil, Pet Kelp and the Flea Free all contain different ingredients with different purposed and would be safe to use together. Then once you’re done the bag of Pet Kelp pick out a new supplement next time.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Long term supplementation with probiotics and enzymes is very safe and healthy, in fact many posters here supplement their healthy dogs’ diet with probiotics and enzymes. My dogs get 1/2 c. kefir every other day and green tripe almost daily (loaded with naturally occurring probiotics and enzymes). The Vetri Probiotic BD looks okay but it only has 3 strains of probiotics – I’d personally look for something with more strains. NWC Natural’s makes a digestive supplement for dogs called Total Biotics with 14 strains of probiotics, prebiotics and enzymes. Mercola also sells a good probiotic supplement with 14 strains and Garden of Life Primal Defense has 12 strains. A dog’s natural diet (raw prey) would naturally contain probiotics and enzymes so when feeding a processed kibble diet it’s good to add supplemental enzymes and probiotics. DGL is deglycyrrhizinated licorice and is often used by holistic vets to help heal the lining of the digestive tract. I’d assume this would only be need while your dog is healing and wouldn’t be supplemented long term, but you can talk to your vet about it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

Supplementing with pre and probiotics long term is fine and actually very healthy. Many posters here supplement with probiotics daily or at least a few times a week for their healthy dogs. My dogs get 1/3 c. kefir every other day and raw green tripe almost daily (both are loaded with naturally occuring probiotics). DGL (deglycyrrhizinated licorice) is often prescribed by holistic vets and is used to help heal the lining of the digestive tract. DGL is probably something you’d just want to use while your dog is healing and not something you’d continue long term, talk to your vet though. The Vetri-Probiotic BD looks okay, but it only contains 3 strains of probiotics – you could do better imo. I’d check out Total Biotics is has 14 strains of probiotics plus enzymes and prebiotics, Mercola’s has a 14 strain probiotic and they also sell a separate enzyme supplement (http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html) and Garden of Life Primal Defense has 12 strains (http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/Digestive-Health/Primal-Defense.aspx).

[weimlove]

Ok, that seems easy! So to start out, do you think as long as I add the vitamin e and fish oil that the pet kelp is ok to use? Also, if I ordered the flea free product, would it be ok to use all of those ingredients together?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Well in the morning I mix up a big batch of food, all my dogs eat the same amount (lucky me) so when I’m mixing up the food I poke a hole in the end of the capsules, squeeze it in and mix it (most vitamin e capsules are filled with liquid). If your dog will eat the whole capsule though, there’s no reason you can’t just stick the capsule in his food.

[weimlove]

HDM- that makes sense! I never knew that, thanks for sharing. I love the starwest botanical site, and I think I may just buy the kelp and alfalfa from the site and mix them myself to add in. When you give your dogs vitamin e, do you just put the pill in their food, or crush it?

[crazy4cats]

Hi All-
My dogs (lab/retriever mix) have been off and on antibiotics for the last year due to arriving with giardia. I had never even heard of it before. My first vet explained they would be carriers and never totally get rid of it after 3 treatments. After their next episode of green diarrhea, I went to new vet and he said that wasn’t true and we tried a stronger treatment of metronidazole and dewormer. He also suggested pre/probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL. I was happy that he was trying something new. We have had 2 negative fecal tests so far. What a relief! He also recommended food change. I was using Kirkland. He liked raw best and suggested blue or nature’s variety. Wow! A vet that didn’t recommend science diet. So, anyway doing all of the above now. We have had a huge improvement in stools. Not perfect yet, but much better. I’m guessing after reading this website, it could take 6 months to totally recover from all the antibiotics they have taken and having parasites in their guts. My question is; is it safe to use these supplements long term? Will they become dependent on them? Also, wondering if anyone has heard of using DGL for dogs? Im using Vetri-probiotic BD right now. It has pre/pro and enzymes in it. I’m not sure about long term use.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

I’ve seen the Pet Kelp supplements and they look like good supplements, however you definitely still need to add vitamin e. If you look at the nutrient analysis of the Pet Kelp product there is only 1.65 i.u. vitamin e per tablespoon. The AAFCO minimum requirement for vitamin e is 50 i.u. per kilogram of food and ideally your dog should be getting between 100 and 300 i.u. per day. I split 800 i.u. between my 3 dogs daily, so they all get about 266 i.u. each per day. The other thing to keep in mind is that you will be supplementing with fish oil (high levels of omega 3’s) and vitamin e is used to metabolize omega 3’s, so if you don’t supplement with high levels of vitamin e while supplementing with omega 3 rich fish oil the body’s stores of vitamin e will eventually be depleted and the dog will develop a vitamin e deficiency. If you decide to go with the Pet Kelp supplement I would recommend picking out 1 or 2 other whole food supplements with ingredients other than kelp (some that I like are Nature’s Logic All Food Fortifier, Welly Tails Might Phytonutrients, Animal Essentials Organic Green Alternative, Aunt Jeni’s Enhance, etc.) and rotating to a new supplement every month or so, this way your dog can get some variety. I don’t believe flax is bad for healthy dogs, I occasionally give my dogs flax oil. There are positives and negatives to almost every food out there which is why rotating is key – if you rotate your dog is a lot less likely to suffer the negative consequences of any one ingredient because he won’t be exposed for long periods of time.

[Safe4pups]

Make sure your dogs aren’t using smoked or cooked bones – raw is what you want. 🙂
As for your budget, I have found that I can buy premium food online at MUCH better prices – including free shipping and NO tax! I have 3 dogs and 2 cats – 2 dogs on Nutrisca and the cats and 1 dog on Orijen and I pay about 23% less online.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[weimlove]

Sandy- thanks for posting that link, they have a lot of great supplements to add.

[weimlove]

Patty- I think I will most likely end up rotating too once I get started. Do you feed a alfalfa pill, or I’d yours ground up? I’ve had a hard time finding alfalfa other than in a pill form.

[weimlove]

Toxed- thanks for your concern, but my pup dosent have hormone imbalances. Do you think flax is bad for healthy dogs? If so, why?

[pugmomsandy]

This one is flax free. I’m not sure how long it will be available since they have introduced a combo/al-in-one product greens/prb\ob/enzyme supplement.

Natural Dog Supplements & Vitamins

[pugmomsandy]

Husky3,

Have you taken into account her body condition score? In your first post, you only mentioned she was overweight but not how she looked. So I just wanted to throw that out there. As my small dogs are on a low carb diet, they remain “overweight” but with good body condition scores. I’m going to say they are muscular versus fat. My two small ones are 24 lbs but look like ones that weigh less than 20. My gravatar is one of my small ones. For a pug he is considered overweight! He still has the same harness set at the same size for the past 3 years although he is heavier than 3 years ago. I’ve been feeding them at first low carb kibble and now kibble and raw foods and they just are heavy pugs but not fat. I haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet in this forum. If anyone knows how (using shutterfly) let me know!! For my group, if they were to lose weight to be more inline with the breed standard, they would have to be emaciated! Or lose all their muscles and become weaklings.

[husky3]

Wow, thank you for your response!! I have been searching for an answer for a very long time…

I was not aware of Potatoes having toxins… It’s interesting that you bring up allergies, I was just thinking the other day that she might be allergic to something. I noticed her lips/muzzle seemed a little more “plump” than normal… But I chalked that up to her being overweight, since she is not itchy, has a beautiful thick coat, and no skin problems.

She is up to date on all her vaccinations, and since seeing our new vet (who is wonderful, might I add), we’ve recently decided that we will only go with the mandatory Rabies vaccination which is due next month. They run a titer blood test to confirm they don’t need additional vaccines. She has never had any GI problems, and she gets Trifexis once a month for any possible worms/fleas. I’m not sure what other environmental things could be bothering her, what other environmental things were you referring to?

I have notice a slight change in her physique since we upped the exercise, but still no actual weight loss after 8 months of decreased calories and increased exercise. I will look into the Brothers Complete, and, quite frankly, I’m afraid to try the RAW diet, I’ve heard it’s difficult to make sure they are getting all the nutrition they need, in addition to the protein. I may have to suck it up and try it though, or at least incorporate it into their diet a couple times a week. 🙂

I am very excited to research all the great information you provided, and I think I will have an allergy test ran to see what foods she might be sensitive to. Hopefully we will finally find our answer!

Thank you again for your response, I really appreciate your input. 🙂
Hope you have a Happy New Year!

[theBCnut]

I use a whole food vitamin supplement that has flax in it, but I rotate that too, so I’m not using it all the time. I use kelp sometimes, alfalfa others, and right now it’s spirulina, so I rotate that too. I think it’s safe to say I rotate everything, except my vinegar.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Weimlove,
I avoid flax like the plague. It s an estrogen analog. If your pups having hormone imbalances, this is the last thing it should be eating.

[weimlove]

The other day, I found a product called PetKelp. It’s ingrdients are kelp, flax, and blueberries. It says it can be used for a supplement with food to ensure all needed vitamins and minerals. I know I will still need to add some source of fish oil, but do you think if I used the petkelp that I would need to still add vitamin E and alfalfa? Here is the website of the PetKelp wellness formula:
http://www.petkelp.com/antioxidant.html
If anyone could look at the ingredients and let me hear your opinions I would greatly appreciate it!

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Tay,
Looks like you’ve been working hard to get to the bottom of this. 🙂 Let me toss a few things out. Have you tried a potato & grain free, high protein food? I noticed Orijen had both potato & sweet potato. That’s a lot of starch. Starch is converted to glucose, which triggers insulin, which opens the ‘gate’ that says “make fat.” Were you aware that potatoes have toxins? They’re from the deadly nightshade family. If your pup is having immune system problems (too many toxins – dietary & environmental) she may be putting on fat, as a secondary defense mechanism. I’m toxically injured. When my primary detox metabolism failed, my body started creating fat out of my own body tissue, encasing the toxins and storing them in adipose tissue… So even when I was barely eating, I was putting on weight. Its very common with the Toxically Injured (TI), and pets have the same response. So, we can take a look at what your environment looks like, what you’re pup’s vaccine and worming schedule is and boost her immune system.

Personally, I like Brother’s Complete, as the best kibble. It has a unique encapsulated probiotic, that feeds the entire digestive system. The gut is the foundation of the immune system. It also doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a lot of other foods, even some of the “high end” ones. I also feed raw. You might want to look at that, to reduce the carbs. Dogs don’t have a dietary need for carbs. So reducing them won’t do him any harm. Steve Brown recommends 5-6% carbs, but more in the line of dark green leafies, or high antioxidants. I also like to give astaxanthin from Mercola(dot)com.

Any way, its a waste of money & your dog’s health to not clean up her environment, in addition to her diet, so read the “detoxing” and “vaccinating” threads, under “diet & health,” and then let me know if you need any more help. 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

I don’t think it matters which protein you choose, just go with one he’s never eaten before. You can give treats, but it should be simple single ingredient with just the protein you’re feeding him. So say you go with goat, any treat you feed should be just goat nothing else. Just during the period of time that you’re trying to figure out what his food-triggers are (if there are any). If you’re feeding, say, a raw diet with goat and starting giving a biscuit that has chicken and carrot and sweet potato and peas then he has a reaction, you would have no way of knowing if the reaction was caused by the goat, the chicken, the carrots, the sweet potato or the peas – you know what I mean? So during the ingredient trial period simple is best. Once you get past the 2-3 month period and start re-introducing other foods and figure out which (if any) ingredients are triggering his actions you can buy treats with safe ingredients – but before you can do that you need to figure out which ingredients are safe. And as, as I said in my previous comments, I would strongly encourage a high quality pro-biotic supplement (Mercola’s and Garden of Life’s Primal Defense are two of the best) because, like Toxed just pointed out, a healthy gut is the foundation of immune health.

[Hound Dog Mom]

That’s too bad. Primal hasn’t started using HPP on all their raw have they? I know when I first started raw I used their mixes. I would order the bulk variety pack from the dogma and I noticed that the lamb, beef, buffalo and sardine (all non-HPP) always looked super fresh and pink, while the turkey and chicken (HPP) always were gray-ish and had a rind…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

That’s great that you still feed your dog a meat based diet and are willing to feed raw even though you’re vegan, it must be tough to do! 🙂 While I completely respect vegetarians and vegans, I see too many that try to force their lifestyle on their dogs and cats and I personally don’t think it’s fair…

Hare-Today.com and Mypetcarnivore.com sell pre-ground mixes with muscle meat, bone and organs in the correct proportions – so you wouldn’t need to chop up any meat or anything, it comes looking just like a pre-made raw (it just doesn’t have the supplements or veggies). They have several novel protein sources. Hare Today sells goat, goose, llama, pheasant and quail and My Pet Carnivore sells alpaca, goat, muskrat and rabbit. I’d just recommend adding the supplements I listed in my previous post – vitamin e (a capsule for humans a couple times a week), fish oil (for omega 3’s), kelp & alfalfa (trace nutrients) and probiotics (to help strengthen his gut). I’d leave out any other ingredients and just keep it basic during the elimination trial so when you start re-introducing ingredients you can know what the issue is. Only feed one protein source and don’t give any treats.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Oceandog,

Sounds like you’re on the right track diet wise. However, diet & environment go hand in hand. Both need to be addressed in order to eliminate your dogs issues. If you click “forums” again, then choose “Diet and Health Issues” you will see a number of threads. I’d encourage you to read the “Detoxing” thread on page 2, for a good understanding of how the immune system works, and the “Vaccinating” thread on page one. The symptoms you’ve listed for your pup are symptoms of vaccinosis.

Here’s the bottom line, when you remove all dietary & environmental toxins, and detox the body, the “allergies” go away.

I feed Brother’s Complete Fish formula, for the kibble portion of my girls diet (& raw). Brother’s has encapsulated probiotics. Gut health is the foundation of the immune system. I also use Mercola’s astaxanthin, a powerful antioxidant to help their detox.

[oceandog]

I have had him on raw until the vet prescribed a specialty anallergen kibble (not good stuff in my opinion). I have a kibble now because the raw I have been using does not have novel protein sources. They have turkey, chicken, duck and beef. I am going to be honest and since I don’t know anyone here yet I hope that readers will be kind. 🙂

I am a 22+ year vegetarian/vegan and while I cannot eat meat myself, I don’t believe that I should force that on my dogs as I believe they are carnivores. The reason I say this is I don’t believe I could make my own raw. Unless you eat the way I do you cannot imagine how truly difficult it is for me to deal with the raw on a daily basis. I have to slightly warm it or he won’t touch it, the smell is my undoing. Not to mention the mess. So, having said all of that? I don’t think I am up to making my own. If I read your post correctly, those two links above have novel protein in a raw form? If so, do I have to do anything to it or can I just feed it as it comes? I will look for this information on the sites, and I so appreciate your feedback. This has been quite difficult. I thought we had it figured out a couple of times but I think my error was not keeping him on a restricted diet long enough.

It is of course possible it is a habit or environmental. Yesterday though he was chasing his leg in circles to chew on it. So I just don’t know. I have the kangaroo kibble that I will continue on until I can review and possible order from the suggested sites. I have kept kibble on hand for training purposes. Do it seem reasonable to keep the kibble for this purpose if I can find an appropriate raw?

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve used Primal and NV raw. The last bag of Primal Rabbit had what looked like a “crust” all around the patty like breadcrust but on all sides and it felt a little spongy and when you broke the patty open, the “crust” and the insides were a different color! I think one of the NV was like that too but it’s been a while since I’ve used it but I remember I usually get their beef.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Hound Dog Mom- I guess that all makes sense. Just grew up thinking all bones are dangerous for dogs. But, I did go to our local Mud Bay Pet food store yesterday and bought two marrow bones and a bag of turkey necks. Gave them the bones last night. Of course they loved them and woke up this morning looking for them! They are so aggressive, I was worried they would break a tooth! I will try the turkey necks later this week. I’m definitely gonna keep an eye on them. They are such gulpers. They have swallowed whole socks! We were told they are lab/retriever mix. But everyone says the one definitely looks like he has some blood hound also. And you know how they are about eating everything in site. Lol! They are a year and a half old. im hoping they will grow out of the chewing stage some day. I also checked out the raw food website that was recommended. I’ll have to say I was a little grossed out. But, prices did seemed cheaper than Mud Bay. I guess the days where it was recommended to only feed dogs kibble and to find one they liked and stick with it are over. Somehow I ended up with 4 cats and 2 dogs. (I can never say no to a cat) I’m trying to feed the best and still feed my human boys too. Lol! Thanks for the advise. I have learned a lot from this website. Maybe too much, our pet food budget has doubled.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi oceandog –

When you fed raw did you use a novel protein source? Honestly, if he was experiencing these issues on a grain-free raw diet with a novel protein source, I would be inclined to think it’s more likely to be a compulsive behavior or something in the environment. Since raw is not an issue for you, rather than messing around with kibble I’d put him right on a raw diet. I’d personally go with a grind from hare-today.com or mypetcarnivore.com (the grinds contain muscle meat, organ meat, bone and nothing else) – pick one with a protein he’s never eaten before (they’ve got some pretty novel proteins like goat, duck, quail, rabbit, etc.). I’d feed him the grind with a vitamin e supplement, fish oil, kelp/alfalfa blend and a high quality multi-strain probiotic with nothing else for 2-3 months (no treats either!). After 2-3 months, assuming the issues have cleared, gradually start introducing new protein sources and other food items such as vegetables, fruits and eggs. Introduce each item one at a time and closely monitor his reaction. Keep a journal or something noting which foods cause reactions and which don’t. After you figure out which foods trigger his reaction you can start looking into pre-made raw foods (if you wish or you can keep making your own) that don’t contain any of his allergy triggers. If something like this doesn’t work, then I highly doubt his issues are food related.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

That’s actually a very common question! Most people are under the impression that all poultry bones are dangerous for dogs – this isn’t true. Raw bones are safe for dogs and any cooked bone is dangerous for dogs. Some people think only cooked poultry bones are dangerous, but even those big cooked ham bones or marrow bones are dangerous. Cooked bones become brittle which causes them to splinter when chewed and not digest as well. The reason cooked poultry bones generally cause more problems than larger cooked bones is because they’re so small that dogs can crunch them up more easily, swallow them, and then experience problems such as intestinal perforations and blockages. A dog is definitely less likely to be able to chew up a heavy bone and experience problems, but a large dog or a powerful chewer could definitely break off a piece of a large cooked bone and then experience the same sort of problems that are experienced with cooked poultry bones. When bones are raw – this includes poultry bones – they are more pliable, a lot less likely to splinter and digest better. Animals in the wild obviously must eat raw poultry bones all the time and they aren’t dying from intestinal perforations of blockages. RMBs that are completely consumable (like turkey necks and chicken backs) are nature’s toothbrush! My dogs get RMBs every night at dinner. 🙂

[oceandog]

I actually do prefer a raw diet, and when I got him as a puppy, I started him on one. I still am having great difficulty finding one to suit. My favorite raw is Darwins, they are just amazing, but so far I haven’t been able to find a formula that works for him, which makes me wonder if it is not food but as you said an environmental one. I have tried an alternate diet, but I was unaware of the 3 month time line, perhaps that is where I have gone wrong? I have not given enough time between foods so I don’t have a realistic idea if it is food or not. I found a kibble (blech) that is kangaroo and red lentil, he seems to like it, it is me that doesn’t like to feed kibble. Perhaps I should keep him on that until say the end of March and then start reintroducing Darwins raw? Does that sound reasonable? And for what it is worth, thank you so much for your reply, it is difficult to feel so confused about the right thing to do. He isn’t a pet, he is family! 😉 I will look at the website you suggested in the morning. Thanks again!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Any variety with poultry is HPP and any variety without poultry is non-HPP. So the beef, lamb, rabbit and venison are non-HPP.

[Hound Dog Mom]

For a healthy dog eating raw or dehydrated foods which still have natural enzymes, I personally don’t think enzymes are necessary (they definitely aren’t going to hurt and if you have the extra money go for it, but I don’t think it’s a necessary expense). For a healthy dog eating quality kibble, I’d probably give half the recommended dose of an enzyme supplement. I think all dogs can benefit from probiotics, but unless the dog is having serious digestion issues I think some plain yogurt or (better yet) kefir or raw green tripe is enough to help keep the gut flora in balance. My dogs eat all raw and get green tripe nearly every day and about 1/3 c. kefir (the kefir I use has 12 strains of probiotics) every other day. I don’t add any supplemental enzymes or probiotics. When Gus was eating kibble I did give him 1/2 the recommended dose of Flying Bassett’s digestive enzymes daily and some plain yogurt or kefir a few times a week, but I quit giving this when I switched to THK and raw. I do like the medizym supplement Sandy posted a link to – GREAT for arthritis.

[InkedMarie]

HDM: do the bags of Primal say if they are HPP or not?

[Hound Dog Mom]

If I was going to go pre-made my top pics would be Answers, Aunt Jeni’s and the non-HPP Primal varieties.

[billdoe]

Take care not to hijack a thread LabsRawsome…bad etiquette

[InkedMarie]

As alot of you know, I feed Darwins pre made. I’m curious what other raws people think are high quality ones

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you truly believe his issues are food-related (keep in mind that while it’s definitely possible his issues are food related, it could also be something environmental or behavioral), I’d recommend doing a food allergy elimination trial. Identify the primary protein and carbohydrate source in the foods that have caused the issues and pick a new food that doesn’t contain these protein sources or carbohydrate sources. I’d also go with a high protein/low carbohydrate food and supplement with probiotics and enzymes as this will strengthen the dog’s gut, help to begin the detoxification process and allow for less opportunity for inflammation. I know Dr. Karen Becker recommends her patients keep their dogs that are experiencing food allergies on a hypoallergenic diet like this for three months. After the three month period, reintroduce other protein sources and carbohydrate sources slowly and monitor your dog’s reaction to find out which items cause issues and which don’t. Try to find at least two or three other foods with different protein/carbohydrate sources that you can rotate your dog to every few months to help prevent the development of other allergies later down the road. If it’s something your open to, a lot of dogs with severe food allergies thrive on raw diets. The food is less processed and easier on the digestion system and it’s much easier to tailor a homemade diet to your dog’s needs. Check out healthypets.mercola.com – this is Dr. Karen Becker’s website, she’s a holistic vet and has a lot of good articles. I’m sure others will chime in with more advice. Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi crazy4cats –

I would go with raw beef tracheas (I order mine from mypetcarnivore.com) – they last awhile. Turkey necks, chicken quarters, chicken backs, turkey feet, etc. are all great too but likely won’t last as long. They can be considered a meal. Knuckle bones and marrow bones are much harder but with an aggressive chewer I’d be careful as they’re so hard your dog could break a tooth.. Never cook bones, they should always be fed raw.

[crazy4cats]

Hi- I often see that many on this forum suggest giving raw meaty bones to their dogs. Which type of bones are the safest and where do you get them? If they still have meat on them, would they be considered a meal? Also, wondering if you should boil them or anything before giving to dogs. My dogs (lab mix) are extremely aggressive chewers and looking for something safe as well as something to keep them busy and satisfied for more than 5 minutes. Help!

[weimlove]

HDM- I think that’s a great idea. Thanks for everything. I still have two weeks of kibble to use so until I run out I plan on buying some pre mix and also some vitamins and minerals as well. Can’t wait to transition I’ll definitely let y’all know how he does!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shawna –

This is one supplement I use with all 8 forms of vitamin e (I’m actually using this one at the moment):

http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-e-tocotrienol-complex-60-liquid-vegetarian-capsules/?NttSR=1

I’ve also used the NOW Gamme E Complex with mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Vitamins/Vitamin-E/M012530.htm

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

If you check out my menus for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus” you’ll see how I utilize a pre-mix for breakfast three mornings per week. Just follow the directions the pre-mix package and use boneless meat. You could omit veggies and all supplements, but I would still add fish oil as most pre-mixes don’t have adequate omega 3’s in the mix. In the evening I just feed some RMB’s and a little muscle meat (like hearts or gizzards) and occasionally some livers.Remember the 80-10-10 ratio doesn’t have to be exact at every meal, just over the course of a week or so you want the dog’s overall diet to roughly equal 80-10-10. It’s called balance over time.

[pugmomsandy]

I always have 2 bags of kibble open. Sometimes they get just kibble. Sometimes they get kibble with various canned food. Sometimes kibble and raw. Or just raw or just freeze dried. No particular pattern. Just random.

[Melissaandcrew]

Hi billdoe-

I have 15 dogs that eat a kibble based diet of approx 33% protein. By the time we add canned, raw, dehydrated, home cooked etc, its higher than that. I have no brown spots on my lawn caused by urine-drought yes, urine no, lol. One thing I DO notice -Their urine used to have a stronger smell and we would periodically lime the yard to prevent odor, as well as assist with any browning that we thought might occur. I just realized that this year, we had no odor even on the hottest/most humid of days, and never limed once this year. For us, the increased protein has had a positive effect on the ‘output”

I am just as uncomfortable feeding a protein level higher than the 33%(for dry) as I would be feeding a protein level under 26% or so.

[BryanV21]

Check out commercial raw foods, such as those made by Primal and Nature’s Variety. They offer a variety of different meats, are very low in carbs, and no grains, which makes them much easier for a dog to digest as they aren’t “set-up” to process carbs.

[Shawna]

In my opinion it is not the total amount of protein in a food but rather the quality of the protein (the bioavailibility — how much is used by the body and how much becomes waste (aka blood urea nitrogen)). Speaking as the owner of a dog born with kidney disease I know that high quality protein creates less nitrogen for her kidneys to have to filter (and thus less in the urine). And my dog with kidney disease actually eats a HIGH protein raw diet — ranging from 45 to 54% protein. In fact, I have 8 dogs all eating high quality kibble with raw and high protein canned toppers or exclusively high protein raw. I don’t have brown spots on my lawn — 8 dogs-high protein-no brown spots.

Additionally, they know that senior dogs actually need as much as 50% more protein than adult dogs as they are not as efficient at digesting their food.

I know you don’t want supplements but a trick used by those with dogs with kidney disease (and confirmed by science to work) is feeding probiotics and foods for those probiotics called prebiotics. This causes a “nitrogen trap” and routes some of the nitrogen in the blood through the colon instead of the kidneys. Gets pooped out instead of peed out.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi again!

I use Sentry Natural Defense topical monthly and give Earth Animal No More Ticks tincture orally 6 days per week during flea season. I’ve had no issues with fleas or ticks. I think you’ll find that once your dog has been eating raw for awhile, he will be more resistant to parasites such as fleas.

Here’s the links to the products I use:

http://www.earthanimal.com/flea-tick-program/earth-animal-no-more-tick-drops.html

http://www.sentrynatural.com/products.html