[shelties mom]

HDM,

I really like your whole food supplement recipe, what do you recommend if a dog is allergic to turmeric? I don’t know if mine will but I read somewhere that a dog was allergic. I have Dr. Karen Becker’s recipe book and will use the recipes as a guide, but really want to avoid any synthetic vitamins in her book. That’s what holding me up in doing all home-made. I’ve been feeding Darwin’s but want to it on my own. I don’t like the pre-mixes from THK or Sojos or any dehydrated food. I prefer all raw and fresh veggies. I can get grass-fed beef, lamb and raw wet bone meal from a local farmer, I’m going to visit some local butchers to see if I can get quality poultrys. Once I can get everything together, I’m ready to start doing it on my own.

[weimlove]

Ok, I know that im probably worrying for no reason, but I’m worried about my Weimaraner breaking teeth when he eats raw bones. Should I be worried? If so, what bones should I not feed?

[InkedMarie]

I was doing some figuring yesterday, at the Hare Today site. I think it would be $12 more to get their mixes/grinds than Darwins so I guess I’ll stick with Darwins. No sense having to repackage to save $12. I was kind of disappointed.

[Alexandra]

Hi Aimee,

“They” is the AKC.

That’s what I mean, how often does the animal get tested? And as you said, they are reflective of the day of the test. It smells fishy to me, because of that.

Maybe it does, I feel that the AVMA is doing the anti raw at the request of the companies that many of them prescribe.

The homeopathic battle can be linked to traditional vets taking a hit as owners are waking up to issues stemming from over vaccinating. Alternative therapies to help our pets, saying no to flea and heartworm prevention, which causes more harm to the dog then a flea bite will.

I think they are doing this not for “health” as they claim, but to keep their group in money. Ultimately, who benefits from this? The vets. And what concerns me it it the close minded ones that benefit the most. My traditional vet doesn’t want to hear about the benefits of raw, never mind that my four year olds teeth look like a two year old, pearly white. No body odor, smaller stool volumes, etc. am I to lie and say kibble all the time to avoid the lecture?

[Alexandra]

Hi Aimee,

Like I said, I have never had to show my dogs medical records to show BUT I have to to enter training classes. The AKC rules are out of date in that respect.

My concern is that they maybe won’t accept exemptions, and I would be able to participate with Dante.

The “judicious” use of vaccines can be pretty vague. I have dealt with three vets in my area and not one even agrees with a vaccine protocol. How often would they want these tests performed? Kinda sounds like revenue raising to me…admittedly I am jaded by this organization.

I don’t like the AVMA using their influence to the levels that they are: raw feeding, homeopathic medications, currently being debated, and then telling a private organization what they “should” require.

[Alexandra]

Hi Weimlove,

I am two hours from Hare today’s farm, so shipping is cheap. I may even start going there and picking up.

As for tripe, your butcher should be able to save you some stomachs, cut, grind (if you wish) bag and freeze. 🙂

My friend and I make tripe every three months. We get ten stomachs, hearts lungs and spleens and grind the mixture together, we get about 100 pounds each, and the price is about 1.00 a pound, can’t be beat!

[Alexandra]

Hi Melissa,

I am concerned that they don’t mention titering or exemptions. I know when I register for shows vaccines or health records NEVER come up.

I did misread the heartworm/parasites stance.

But how can a private organization feel that they can tell a club what they should allow? Who drives the AVMA?

First they frown upon raw foods, now they are going after homeopathic practices, where do they stop? I doubt that their motives are 100% pure. Their vets would gain an influx of business by having vets do all of these tests, and most are probably not necessary.

I have been skeptical of this organization for sometime, and even more so recently.

[weimlove]

I plan on going to the butcher tomorrow to buy ingredients for a couple of weeks of food for shadows meals. I was wondering if y’all could give me examples of muscle meat, organs, and bones that I can buy for the 80 10 10 ratio, so I can have some sort of shopping list. Thanks so much!

[pugmomsandy]

Cabelas has a couple grinders to chose from but I’ve heard the 1/2 hp could barely grind turkey necks so if you’re just going to grind chicken wings or chicken necks and muscle meat, then that would be ok. But for whole poultry, ribs, rabbit I’d get a commercial grinder. I use a Weston 22 grinder. You can see a demo video of it at northcoastpets dot com under dog supplies, then BARF hardware. I don’t know how to copy/paste on my iPad! Sorry. While I do make ground food w bones I will also feed a RMB as well. Not everyday, just sometimes. I serve kibble, raw, canned and freeze dried.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I don’t see why the AVMA needs to keep sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong – it’s not their business how someone wants to raise their dogs. Whether someone wants to feed kibble and vaccinate every year or feed raw and never vaccinate – it’s the owner’s choice. I sure feel bad for all you guys that show your dogs..

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jens –

Check out the “Transitioning to Raw” thread and the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus?” thread – there are a lot of tips on getting started and some recipes there. Dogaware.com is a great resource for beginners and I would also recommend purchasing a copy of “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown – it’s a very comprehensible and quick read, a great book for raw newbies. As for a grinder, I personally don’t use a grinder for my RMBs – your dogs miss out on the dental benefits if you grind the bones. I know a few people here do use grinders though, maybe one of them will pop in with what kind they have.

[aimee]

I recently have been reading of the benefits of resistant starch. I noted that tapioca was not on any of the lists I came across reporting good sources for resistant starch (potato, beans. banana, grains). Looking further I found that tapioca is a base from which resistant starch is being made, specifically Actistar by Cargill. In other words tapioca is being modified in order to make it resistant. This then leads me to believe that unmodified tapioca is not high in resistant starch, otherwise why the need to modify it??? Hmmm….now my curiosity is piqued!

So I started reading about tapioca in general and I didn’t find any mention of tapioca having a high proportion of resistant starch or having beneficial effects as a prebiotic. Instead I found it described as a rapidly digested starch.

Next I hit pubmed and the few studies I found that evaluated the pre cecal digestion of tapioca reported pre cecal digestion of tapioca at 99%. In other word very little made it to the colon undigested. The only study I found in which a significant portion was presented to the colon unchanged was when raw tapioca was fed. But of course the tapioca in kibble has been cooked.

So now I’m frustrated as I can not find one shred of evidence to support the idea that tapioca is nearly 50% resistant starch. Does anyone have any???

[Jens]

Due to having a life besides my dogs, but having the desire to feed them a healthy raw diet, I was wondering what is a simply reciept to feed them daily the same food home made mix. I have two old Malamute/Retriever mixes and two young 3 months old puppies. All are currently on Orijen (large breed and adult) dry food, which they like and do well on. Also, how do you grind your meat, especially the bones and does anybody have a recommendation for a meat grinder.

[Mom2Cavs]

While I’m not familiar with Canyon Creek’s food (I believe it’s fairly new), I do know that their chicken jerky treats are “accused” of causing illness in pets. SORRY…I do realize that is not the question you have, though I just wanted to let you know. My opinion on food is this…..if a food works, then it’s technically a 5 star for the dog! I do want to clarify a little, though. I personally won’t feed below 3 star, won’t even try it for one of my dogs. I have, and would again if necessary, use a 3 star food if it worked the best. Believe me, I have fed the gamut of foods to my 4 dogs. They are all technically seniors now. Currently, I’m feeding Merrick Classic (“gasp” a grain inclusive food!) and will top it with canned food or freeze dried raw food that is rehydrated. I also use Fromm GF dry, and Simply Nourish (both dry and canned), which is Petsmart’s house brand. I will use Weruva canned and Merrick canned, as well. I have an old Cavalier that only eats the freeze dried raw now. In fact, she is the reason I started with it (just trying to get her to eat again as she has a neurological issue). So sorry for the long rant lol….just remember no food works for all dogs, and your dog is your responsibility and it is your decision on what works, what you can afford, what your dog will eat, etc. I’m thrilled you have educated yourself on dog food, though, and can make an informed choice. You have the best interest of your dog at heart! 🙂

[aimee]

Beth,

I just wanted to say I admire your strength and courage for being a responsible and loving owner to your dear dog. We as a society recognize that some people are too dangerous to live among us. There are dogs that simply are not safe to live with either. We want so desperately for these dogs to be normal which is why we grasp at any straw, like diet change, to fix them. But sadly it is not the case.

[panda]

Thank you all for your support – LabsRawesome our Bailey looks like an identical twin of yours.

After considering all your responses and with the with help of Isobel at Global in Hudson we bought some Nat Bal potato/fish.

The other thing is we like to feed him carrots and apple quarters after his meal. Do you think we could continue giving him carrots and apples during the changeover from Royal Canin to Nat Bal or should we just wait a while.

We cannot thank you all enough.

[Shawna]

I’m not understanding your post? They know lectins cause disease (including diabetes). What they don’t know is to what extent and why one has this issue and one has that. I have a friend whose dog is intolerant of green beans. I know others that have issues with strawberries and cucumbers. I am intolerant of dairy lectins and my husband reacts to pinto bean lectins.

The difference between us and our dogs —- we eat a varied diet while we (many of us) force our dogs to dine on the same cuisine day in and day out. Our dogs are more suseptible to the damages of lectins—if in the diet they are eating day after day..

I’m ALL FOR species appropriate diets by the way.. BEFORE illness sets in especially 🙂 Five of my dogs get raw including my dog born with kidney disease. The foster dogs (which will likely be with us for life) get 5 star kibbles with raw and high protein canned toppers.

[Labman]

I have made the cheap dog food mistake as well in fact yep Ol’ Roys I lost one of the best dogs I ever had to that garbage ( menadione) Kidney failure. I Started a petition against them on Change.org. lucky it only effected the one dog that day. We have been on the good food train since I am constantly researching food. At the moment they are on Holistic Blend Grainless they have been on it for about a week and a half. Raw might be the next step. I have to research that next. It’s really sad what these company’s can label food and healthy. when I was talking about 3 legs I meant if I pick up a paw to say trim it she can’t stay in the standing position. she not in pain per say. sometimes days are tougher then others. Omega 3 does seem like a good Idea. it’s so sad we have to sewlf educate ourselves most people think purina and Iams are great.

[weimlove]

Oh ok, that’s true. I just don’t know if my Weims tricky stomach could handle all types at once. But hey, if it works for you that’s great!

[Toxed2loss]

Hey Labman,
You didn’t say what you were feeding, in your post above. Not sure if you’ve posted that somewhere else on the site, but it is important. Your dog’s food is the foundation of her health.

Back before I knew better, I fed really bad dog food to my beloved pointer cross, Morgan. Ol’ Roy, I’m ashamed to say. I was just flat out ignorant!! When she was 12 she slept most of the time, she barely moved, just like yours. Well, my husband decided he needed a new bird dog, so he went out and bought a highly trained purebred, 3 yr old field registered pointer. The owner had health issues and he made it a condition of the sale to feed “high quality” food. Well, he knew more than us, but not as much as he should of, too. He was feeding Iams lamb & rice. A whole lot better than Ol’ Roy!!! So we put both dogs on the better food. Dang!!!! But after a few weeks that dog got up one day and followed my husband 1/4 mile out to the back fence. He turned around and saw her there, wagging her tail and was so worried he carried her (60 lbs) in his arms all the way back to the house. She was lively and healthier for 2-3 more years.

Fast forward to what I know now, feeding your dog THE BEST nutrition makes all the difference! (That’s not Iams!) its balanced raw. If you don’t want to, or can’t, feed raw, then a 5 star meat based kibble. Brother’s Complete is my best pick of kibbles. Hound Dog Mom has posted a lot of recipes and information on raw feeding under that thread, and I’d encourage you to check it out if raw is the way you’d like to go. Shawna is the best resource for nutritional information. Mike P & JohnandChristo rock for feeding kibble plus toppers! Dogs should be living 20-30 years. They were 80 years ago. But that was when they weren’t being feed corn & wheat based dog food. They also weren’t routinely exposed to toxins from flea & tick pesticides, worm pesticides, heavy metals poisoning in vaccines and being over vaccinated… Reducing the environmental toxins will improve your pups health, too! Supplements are just supplements. They can help a little, but they work best synergistically with optimal nutrition.

[pugmomsandy]

weimlove,

I’m actually one of those that feeds all types: raw, kibble, freeze dried, dehydrated and canned. Hubby would not know what to do so he would just feed kibble. It’s good for back up, traveling, boarding, camping…

[weimlove]

Sandy,
I found a couple of good sights for freeze dried tripe, one of them is http://www.bellaspainrelief.com/ and the other is http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/ On both of these sites have freeze dried tripe. You can get 5 oz for about $9.00, which isnt too bad. To ship to Fl it is about 13.00 which is ok as well. Until I can find some local tripe, I will probably order some of the freeze dried. I will probably just add a couple of pieces to maybe one meal a day. I’ve found a great butcher for meat, bones, and organs, but I will definintly look for a mexican or asain market. I think theres one in my town, I will just have to look up the address. Yeah, we have one more week left of his Acana kibble food, then we will be transitioning to raw. I cant wait, it will be cheaper plus so much better for my weimaraner. It’s a little confusing/overwhelming at first trying to figure out the ratios and which supplements and veggies to give, but im sure once I get started it will be easy!

[InkedMarie]

HDM: since shelties are *my* breed, I’m pretty confident we will want one. I’ll probably want both. My fear is that Gemma, the female, will love us and vice versa, then Mitch, the male, will crawl into one of our laps and won’t want to leave. Then what? In a few hours, we’ll know.

[soho]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to discuss diet and diabetes. Diabetes is a huge subject to tackle whether it is in regard to people or to pets. I wanted to start the conversation with the question;

“What should I feed my Diabetic dog?”

Without going into the science of Diabetes which would be a very long and complex conversation let’s just discuss what you can do in regards to your dog’s diet to help them live a longer and healthier life.

I have been dealing with my own diabetes for 28 years now and I worked for a Doctor of Osteopathy as a diabetes educator in her Manhattan, NY office. For the last eight years I have counseled many dog guardians on the subject of canine diabetes. I have seen literally thousands of dogs with every kind of health issue through my work with the non profit FreePlay which educates the public on the benefits of off leash recreation areas and with The Pet Wash a local grooming and retail establishment.

The good news is you can really make a difference in your diabetic dog’s well being through their diet. The bad news is diabetes is an insidious disease that can rob your dog of their sight and their life if left unmanaged.

The Canine Ancestral diet which is approximately 55% protein 25 to 30% fat and 15% carbohydrate or on a calorie weighted basis 50% of calories are from protein, 44% from fat, and only 6% from carbohydrate is a good starting point to consider in trying to help the diabetic dog through diet.

The ancestral diet is so low in carbohydrates that it is tailor made for a diabetic dog. You can prepare this type of diet at home using human grade meats and vegetables which we will discuss in another post or you can try to feed your dog a similar diet using commercial foods. I would recommend starting with a balanced raw diet that does not contain bones and lightly cooking it. I would cook it lightly because a lot of diabetic dogs are not in the best health and their ability to deal with the bacteria and microbes that are in the raw food is probably compromised.

Second choice would be a dehydrated food such as The Honest Kitchen. THK is a quality food that uses only human grade ingredients in all of their formulas. The problem with THK is it is lower in protein that what I would suggest. This can be remedied by adding about 20% lightly cooked meat to each of the recipes. I would stick with similar proteins like fowl for the turkey or chicken formulas, fish for the fish formulas and red meat for the beef formulas.

Next would be a canned food that has no grains or other starches like potatoes. I would look for a canned food that was mostly meats with a little vegetables.

Lastly would be kibble. Kibbles require starch to bind the ingredients. They also are the most processed of all the commercial diets available for dogs. They also are dry and nutrient dense. I would suggest that a diabetic dog be fed a high moisture diet like a fresh food or a dehydrated after it is rehydrated or a canned food. Moisture helps ease the burden of the kidneys which are one of the organs that are affected by diabetes.

If you must feed a kibble for whatever reason then I would look to a kibble like EVO which is only 12 percent carbohydrates. The lowest carb highest protein kibble would be the only kibble I would consider feeding a dog with diabetes. Unfortunately once a dog has diabetes the controlling of this disease would be of paramount importance to me and I would no longer be as concerned with considering all of the qualities of an individual dog food and I would mostly focus on feeding a high protein, low carbohydrate and high moisture diet

Questions anyone?

• This topic was modified 13 years, 2 months ago by soho.

[pugmomsandy]

weimlove,

Also if you go to the Asian or Mexican supermarket, they have a good selection of organ meats and chicken feet, hooves, heads, even uterus (which I have not tried) which would be muscle meat. I bought some whole wild caught sardines there recently and give those a couple times a week as one of their meals. My local BARF group purchases from texastripe which makes a delivery run once a month to the area and I get tripe and tripe blend from them for $2/lb. I hope you can find a group to join as mine has been a real great place for resources as well as DFA of course! I found mine at yahoo. Try searching for “yahoo barf group”. You may already know. I’m a little technically challenged and just now found the barf group although I’ve been feeding raw for at least 2 years!

[Shawna]

Hi Lizemma ~~ I missed this post earlier.. My dog, Audrey, was born with kidney disease. She started showing symptoms of excess drinking and urinating at about 6 weeks of age. She came to me at 9 weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed at her one year check up.

Audrey was weaned onto a raw diet and has been eating raw her whole life. She is now 6 and 1/2 years old and still very healthy. She still has kidney disease but unless you look at her blood work or see her drink/urinate you wouldn’t know she was not completely healthy.

Raw isn’t for everyone but it is VERY VERY VERY important to feed dogs with kidney disease a high moisture diet. If raw isn’t an option consider home cooked or canned.

In the earlier stages of kidney disease (despite what your vet says) you do NOT need to lower protein. In fact, they now know that lowering protein too early in the disease actually does more harm than good. I don’t even feed Audrey a low phosphorus food but it is wise to begin to lower phosphorus. The amount to lower is completely based on the stage of the disease.

An EXCELLENT website for all things involving canine kidney disease is nutritionist Mary Straus’ website. She has accurate and current info with research articles linked to back up her comments. She also has a list of lower phosphorus kibble/canned/dehydrated etc foods. http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidney.html

If your vet hasn’t talked to you about “nitrogen trapping” I HIGHLY recommend researching it. Utilizing nitrogen trapping can help significantly (by up to 10 points) clean BUN out of the blood and routing it through the colon sparing the kidneys from having to filter it. Nitrogen trapping involves probiotics and a certain kind of fiber to feed those probiotics. I use acacia fiber — it’s called Sprinkle Fiber and the brand is Fiber 35. It’s made for human consumption but I had the most positive results using this brand with my Audrey.

Best wishes for many more healthy years with your pup!!!!!

[pugmomsandy]

weimlove,

I can get it for $13 each or $12.30 for a case of 20 but then shipping would need to be accounted for. Unfortunately I don’t go to the post office much to know about prices. I’m sure one could fit several freeze dried packages in one of those “if it fits, it ships” boxes. But someone would have to do the math and see if that’s cheaper than raw frozen with shipping. The freeze dried weight is actually .44 lb (which makes 1 lb rehydrated) but I just give them a couple pieces dry in their food bowl or just as treats.

[lizemma]

Thank you for your replies. From my research and my Vet’s opinion, I don’t think raw food is the way I want to go, although there are great testimonials about feeding raw food to dogs.

I will definitely look into California Naturals. I haven’t heard of that brand. Meats are high in phosphorus so low protein is helpful. I have read that fish is high in phosphorus, but possibly the kangaroo or venison formula may work. I will look into the other ingredients. I plan on speaking to another Vet so I will bring these suggestions.

Thanks again for taking time to respond.

[weimlove]

Sandy- thanks for the help! Joining a local group would probably be a good idea. I saw the k9 natural but it’s like 17.00 a pound which is a little crazy!

[pugmomsandy]

weimlove,

Try joining a group of local raw feeders. They can give you some local resources for raw foods and other topics of course. Look for a BARF group. I’m a member of a yahoo BARF group and they have been helpful on many topics – food, local raw foods, holistic vets, etc…even found a local tripe source for myself!! If you can’t local raw tripe, you might consider freeze dried tripe. K9 Naturals has it and I think Bravo, not sure. But the freeze dried, although more costly per pound, might be cheaper than shipping raw frozen and would be better than no tripe at all!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Can’t say I agree that adding tapioca to raw would be a good idea. I wouldn’t reduce the protein content of my dogs’ food, up the carb content and glycemic load to add pre-biotics when there are much more species-appropriate pre-biotics that can be added without altering the protein and carbohydrate content and glycemic load. Chicory root, burdock root, dandelion root and garlic are all pre-biotics. Many can be purchased in concentrated tinctures specifically for pets that add appreciable amounts of pre-biotics to the diet. I’ve used Prebiotic Plus herbal tincture from Animals’ Apawthecary before and I also add minced raw garlic 2 or 3 times a week. With kibble a starch is obviously necessary, so it’s great to use a starch that has some sort of benefit (such as the pre-biotics in tapioca) because you have to have it, but a raw diet gives the opportunity to completely eliminate starches and that (in my opinion) is the beauty of a raw diet and why I think dogs thrive so much more on raw than on kibble.

[BrothersDogFood]

Toxed

Thanks for such a comprehensive look at Cassava root to help dismiss some of the negative hype that’s been circulating lately. So allow me to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

One of the things about Cassava that is often overlooked is that as much as 50% is in an insoluble form that feeds the good bacteria in the gut and doesn’t really contribute to the Glycemic index load in the blood stream. So it’s a carbohydrate that binds the meat and fat part of the formula while half of it is used to strengthen the immune system and feed the good bacteria in the gut to keep the system healthy. In effect one half the carbs in the cassava root are not really used by the regular system nor do they effect it directly.

They are basically “encapsulated” so the main system doesn’t have access to them and delivered to a sub-system in the body – which is the bacterial colony in the gut – and this bacterial colony (which has 10X the number of cells than the entire rest of the body combined) is essential in maintaining the immune system and the healthy functioning of the rest of the system. Actually, if you were to replace the Cassava with some more meat it wouldn’t be nearly as healthy for the system as a whole. THe work that the Cassava does in maintaining gut health is far more beneficial than some additional amino acid sequences in extra protein.

All carbohydrates are NOT created equal – some are actually very beneficial – even to a dog. Dogs may not have a “need” for carbohydrates but that doesn’t mean that certain carbs in proper quantities can’t be used judiciously to benefit the dog’s system. In fact even if I were to feed an all raw diet, knowing what I now know about Cassava root and gut biology, I would add it to the raw food. While many of us have a tendency to want to see life in black and white terms, me included, because it simplifies everything and reduces the complexity to manageable levels….it seems that life is actually mostly composed of shades of gray.

This years Nobel prize in Physics went to 2 men who found a way to design an experiment that proved that one aspect of the Quantum world, which is the basis of our physical reality, is so strange that Einstein died convinced that what they just proved was absolutely impossible. I won’t go into it but what they proved to be quite real is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stranger than the idea that a certain carb source, in proper proportion, might actually be more beneficial to a dog than if it weren’t in the dogs diet. Just a little food for the open mind.

[weimlove]

Hdm- oh ok, we’ll that’s nice that you live do close. I live in Pensacola, fl so I guess I may have to do overnight.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Lucky! I would love to have something like that locally. I have to make everything from scratch or have it shipped – downside of living in the middle of nowhere. I wish I had something like Hare Today or MPC locally, I’d be in heaven – or well, the dogs would be in heaven. The only thing that prevents me from ordering Hare Today and MPC grinds for every meal is shipping costs.

[InkedMarie]

There is a semi local (in state but not around me) breeder of Dogues who also sells raw. Prey model raw people can buy their stuff but she also makes her own pre made. I think you have to just add supplements. I am going to seriously look into this because there is a good chance we will be adopting a sheltie very soon, going to meet two of them tomorrow at the foster home. I’d love to have all on raw but cannot afford to do so with Darwins.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Got this in my email today:

“Urgent: If you believe in Homeopathic Therapies for Pets, PLEASE READ THIS”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/01/04/homeopathic-therapy.aspx?e_cid=20130104_PetsNL_art_1

[Hound Dog Mom]

Unfortunately when it comes to shipping frozen raw food, that’s about as cheap as it’s going to get (wish places that sold raw offered free ground shipping!). For where I’m located, it costs me about $28 to have 50 lbs. of food shipped from Hare Today – VERY reasonable in comparison to many other places I’ve checked out (I’ve priced some and had them quote me over $200 to ship 50 lbs.). They key is finding a place to order from that’s close enough where you don’t have to pay for overnight or 2 day shipping – I’m in New York and Hare Today is in Pennsylvania so I can just get ground shipping.

Also, something else I noticed I forgot to mention before that I figure I probably should mention if you’re going to be ordering green tripe (you may already know this, but just in case) – green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1 (unlike all other muscle meats and organ meats that are high in phosphorus but have no calcium) so when you feed green tripe you don’t need to add any supplemental calcium, it can be a meal on it’s own.

[Toxed2loss]

I’m sorry James. Just a typo probably, and my auto correct substituted Jack. It was not intentional.

I didn’t do “a quick web search” on diabetes, as you assumed. I have a more holistic approach than you, not a limited one. I first started studying it 25 years ago. It is a very complex issue. I ran a quick search to see what some of the diabetic sites were currently saying about tapioca. My daughter has diabetes, and she eats carbs, including tapioca. So I checked, since I wouldn’t consider my daughter’s personal decisions an appropriate source on diabetes…

I chose to discuss meat based proteins being a superior canine diet and a natural segue of that is why I feed Brother’s, when I prefer balanced raw. You are the one focusing on the fact I talked about Brother’s, more than you are paying attention to everything else I said. Your comments seemed to imply that ANY tapioca was bad, and therefore any dog food with tapioca is bad. I’m explaining that its not. And since this is still a dog food forum discussing dog food ingredients, and no dog food is tapioca based, you’re obviously objecting to a proportionally very small amount of tapioca being used. That begs the question, why get all het up about that tiny bit of tapioca when grain based dog foods have a whole lot higher net GL…?

FYI I’m free to give my opinion of Brother’s Complete when ever I feel inclined.

[Anonymous]

Shawna,
Thank you so much for the great input! (and understanding!) I actually get Dr. Becker’s e-mailed newsletter and remember that article coming out a little while ago, but because Abby has been on this food in the past and done just fine, I couldn’t imagine that being the cause. At first, I thought it was just a little bug of some sort, like the human version of the flu that would pass. And the vet tech that I talked to said it could be that. I actually keep the empty bags of food in a pile that go into their bin so I know what I’ve had them on in case there are any reactions for better or worse to whatever food they are on. I rotate it about every 3 months. I take their health VERY seriously, so I only give them the 5 star foods and have experimented with no rice, no potatoes, no grain, etc., etc. etc. My 12.5 year old female has a chronic cough and I was told no grains would help with digestion and whatever was causing the coughing, but despite all the foods I’ve tried, she still has it, but the chinese herbs she’s on has kept her from having to take dangerous allergy meds the vet wanted to put her on for life. In any case, I’m hoping we don’t have to go in for the thyroid test that is the vet’s next step, although she felt Abby at 4.5 years old, was too young to have thyroid issues. I think this was intended to be a short term trial thing on the pepcid because she told me to call her wednesday with a report of how Abby’s doing, but I want to give it a bit more time before I do in case she relapses when I take her off of them and put her back on Nature’s Logic chicken, which she’s been on just fine in the past. Whatever happens, none of my dogs will ever be on any harmful meds long term if I have any other choices at all. This was just a case of exhaustion and wits end with all other means I had tried. And I googled this topic to death and could not find a single case of anyone else having this same issue. She didn’t eat anything to block her intestines, she was going to the bathroom just fine, she’d been on this food for about 2 1/2 weeks after having been on it in the past with no problems at all. I gave her petburger cooked, petburger raw, petburger cooked with rice, canned food, canned food with apples, canned food with yogurt, and probably other variations that I can’t recall in my attempts to help her. And she didn’t always get sick during that two week period consistently, so it was hard to know if it was from eating or not eating or what she ate this time or the last time. I keep the food bowls for all four dogs outside with food usually available, so she has/had the option to eat at night before coming in for bed. This routine did not change and has worked for years. It’s just sooo frustrating because there is no real direct link for cause and effect that I can change or avoid to stop or prevent it from happening again.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Jack,
Its a good thing tapioca is used minimally in high end kibbles then, – just as a binder. Not like the corn based kibbles, which are mostly high glycemic starches. Though it is interesting that there is research showing animal fat & protein mediates glucose spikes & that endocrine disrupting hormones have a greater impact than modest carbohydrate consumption.

I ran a quick search and diabetics are allowed to eat some tapioca… It just has to be balanced.
Here’s a quote from a diabetes support site. Granted its from a human type I site, but the research said that because there wasn’t much on dogs, it was acceptable to correlate human diabetes Type I information to dogs.

“- Vegetables that should be consumed in limited quantities by diabetics are: High sugar vegetables and root vegetables like carrot, potato, beetroot, colocasia, sweet potato, yam, tapioca and other vegetables like artichoke, green plantain, tender jackfruit, broad beans, double beans, cluster beans.”

So limited quantities, not none. I certainly wouldn’t feed any of my dogs any predominantly starch based diet, tapioca or not. They weren’t designed to eat starch, as a staple. I prefer to feed a balanced raw, according to Steve Brown’s book, and Dr. Becker & Beth Taylor’s book. I feed raw & kibble because I can’t count on my health being stable. Like today, I started out great, but had a bad crash at 2:00, recovered and had a major crash at 6:00. Luckily I got on top of that one and am recovering fairly well at the moment. So I picked the absolute best kibble I could, for my girls, because I know my husband. He’s not going to feed raw if I croak over. I want them to all go on with as minimum disruption as possible. I feel the percentages of carbs, including the tapioca, and their combined glycemic indexes as compared to the meat, fat, bone, ratios & the ratios of other ingredients of Brother’s Complete Fish formula is the best. I also like how it doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a number of other “high end” kibbles. And according to some research papers, those dietary toxins are being recognized as having a much greater influence on promoting diabetes Type I (the kind that dogs typically get), than previously thought. My2¢

[weimlove]

Hdm- I checked out both of the sites. The cheapest shipping is 23.00 eeek! Lol but I haven’t been able to find a local distributor so that may be the best option.

[Shawna]

Hi Bill 🙂

1. The reason plant based proteins are combined, as you know, is that some are deficient in one essential amino acid or another. By combining you can get representation of all essentials. My problem with this is that if not done well it can still cause an excess of others making the entire protein content less bioavailable. Bioavailability is the ability of the body to use the amino acids from the proteins we eat. Egg has 100% bioavailability — ALL the amino acids in an egg are used leaving none to become blood urea nitrogen for the kidneys to have to filter. When we combine foods we’re bound to have an excess of some and a proper representation of others. The body is then going to have an excess of some that it can’t use and these become blood urea nitrogen. This isn’t a bad thing unless the eater has kidney disease.

All animal based proteins already have all essential amino acids so combining is not really as necessary. However some have more of one and less of another — turkey, as an example, is a good source of tryptophan. Adding animal based protein to any kibble is a good idea and mixing up the proteins makes sense (different amino acids, different fat representations etc). You can not over feed protein to a healthy dog. What they can not use they will safely eliminate causing no harm.

It’s best to feed eggs raw as cooking them can denature the protein in the whites and destroy the omega 3 in the yolk. If feeding whites only you must cook them as the avidin in the white binds to the B vitamin biotin and can cause a deficiency. The yolk is high in biotin so when feeding together avidin is now believed to not be an issue.

2. I don’t think that carbs reduce the benefit of protein (with an exception) but rather they take the place of the much more needed protein. It is well known, and mentioned in the teaching books like Waltham, that dogs have NO nutritional need for carbs. Adding carbs displaces the macronutrients they do need — fat and protein. Dogs can derive glucose from protein and fat. Carbs (starch) is added to kibble more because kibble can not be made without starch than a dietary need. I do think that in our modern world the antioxidants, vitamins etc in high quality carbs (veggies and fruit) can be of great benefit when used in small amounts though.

The exception I mentioned above — there is a theory that carbs and proteins digest at different rates, and more importantly, at different acid/base levels. Lou and Marilyn Diamond had a very interesting book out in the 80’s called “Fit for Life”. From memory, the theory is that carbs (starch) digest in an alkaline environment and protein in acid. This is true but I don’t know if one impedes the other. Example — if a high starch diet prevents the stomach from producing enough HCL to activate the pepsin protein in the stomach that digests the protein.. If this is true than excess, or any, starch can make protein digestion more difficult. Carbs could be eaten but not at the same meal as protein and visa versa. Fruit had to be eaten alone and non-starchy carbs (aka certain veggies) could be eaten with protein or starchy meals. I tried this and I do think it improved digestion considerably but it was difficult to maintain and after about 8 months I gave it up never to retry.

3. I’m sure there’s a way to easily figure out the percent but math is not my strong suit so I’ll leave that to someone with stronger math skills :). I will say however that I don’t think you need to worry about it. Those of us that feed raw, myself and Toxed included, feed protein amounts in excess of 50%. What you do want to be congniscent of is not to add more than 20% of ANY food that is not balanced to an already balanced diet. Doing so can throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and that could be bad..

I am HORRIBLY sorry if this post makes little to no sense…?? I’m watching my 1 and 2 year old grand kids and they make concentration and focus near impossible.

Thank you Toxed for your vote of confidence!!!!! 🙂 Love you girl!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Try hare-today.com or mypetcarnivore.com – I order mine from these two sites (the green tripe supermix from mpc is my crew’s all time favorite). Both have reasonable prices and reasonable shipping.

[weimlove]

Does anybody know anywhere that I can order green tripe from that the shipping isn’t outrageous?

[Anonymous]

Honeybeesmom1, I am happy to report that after being on the Pepcid AC, we have not had any a single issue with the getting sick. I’m sorry I scared you, but I really think it is the dog, not the food, as my other three dogs didn’t have any problems at all and I work from home, so I can spot any issues immediately. I really think Abby, the pure labrador, is just not as genetically “tough” as the other three mixed breeds are with ‘stomachs of steel’ as cast offs that I took in as puppies, so they’ve “been around” and their bodies have never acted this way towards ANYTHING they’ve eaten! 🙂 In the 4.5 years I’ve had the lab, she’s had to go to the vet almost more times than my other three dogs have all put together, including each ones’ spaying/neuter trip, if that tells you anything. One is 9 and the two brother/sister pair are 12 1/2, so that’s a lot of trips! lol They all eat the same food, roam the same areas, except Princess Abby demands (as in stands at the door and whines or barks and if that doesn’t work, gets on the windows and ledges and scratches at them) to be indoors most of the time. The others are just happy to have beds, food and water and don’t care to be inside 99% of the time. Thank goodness. In any case, I wish the vet tech I had talked on the phone to over a week ago shortly after this first started had told me to try an antacid, but all the googling in the world never mentioned it as a possible form of relief. So there you know, for future reference. $24.xx dollar lesson learned. And just fyi, wag.com came through in this whole dog food mess. Without even being asked they sent out another bag of food basically overnight when the original bag I ordered seemed to get hung up in the system and could not be tracked, and gave me 50% off the original one I ordered for the inconvenience. Both bags arrived today, so everybody is now off raw/canned and back on dry. I wish I lived near a place that sold the 4.5-5 star foods reasonable, but I don’t. Luckily, with extrabux, fatwallet, ebates, and shopathome, I can usually find a cash rebate place to shop from and all the food is over the $49 min. for free shipping as well as any other discounts the company is offering, including wag.com’s 5% rebate applied to your next order and in their case, you have your food in about 2 days. ALWAYS. It’s nice not having to lug 25-50 lbs. worth of dog food in and out of the car trunk, over to the bin, etc etc. UPS just brings it to the door.

[Toxed2loss]

Tapioca is one of the alternative starches being used in higher end kibbles. Its gluten free, non-GMO, and when properly processed, non-toxic. In order to make, and bind kibble you must use a certain amount of starch. Tapioca is a good choice in that it is nontoxic, gluten & lectin free.

There is a lot of misinformation being disseminated about tapioca, so lets review the facts and set the record straight. There are no poisonings from properly processed tapioca flour. In fact, most poisonings occur in famine stricken areas where the starving individuals try to take short cuts in processing the raw cassava or manioc root. This is well documented. Tapioca has been safely consumed for thousands of years and is the main staple starch in African, Indonesian and South American diets. “500 million people rely on cassava as their main source of calories, among them subsistence farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa…”Richard Sayre, a professor of plant biology at Ohio State University
—-

“The Culprit in Cassava Toxicity: Cyanogens or Low Protein?
by G. Padmaja

The starchy roots of cassava (Manihot esculenta Crantz) are already a staple for about 500 million people of tropical Africa, Asia, and Latin America, but countless others might also benefit from this food if it were not for the sensationalism that sometimes surrounds the crop’s potential toxicity.
The cassava plant carries two cyanogenic glucosides, linamarin and lotaustralin, in its edible roots and leaves. The amounts of these potentially toxic compounds vary considerably, according to cultivar and growing conditions. “Sweet” varieties usually have such small amounts as to be innocuous, whereas “bitter” varieties have sufficiently high levels to require domestic processing to remove most of the toxins.

In situations where famine or extreme poverty may force a population to eat poorly processed cassava in a diet that is also deficient in nutrients such as protein, the plant’s cyanogenic glucosides can lead to poisoning. A classic case was the infantile kwashiorkor epidemic in famine-stricken Biafra in 1968, but there have also been recent examples of spastic paraparesis, or konzo, in drought-stricken regions of Mozambique and Tanzania.

Detoxifying cassava

Farming populations who cultivate cassava have developed many methods of detoxifying cassava. Boiling and drying are sufficient to make low-cyanogen cultivars safe for consumption, but more rigorous procedures such as grating, fermenting, and sun-drying, are necessary to effectively remove cyanogens from cultivars of higher toxicity.

The protein link

Whenever a chronic disease has been linked to cassava consumption, the victims have also been found to suffer from protein deficiency, suggesting a relationship between the two.

Protein is essential for all the body’s vital functions, and for eliminating certain dietary toxins. With the help of the enzyme rhodanese, the human body detoxifies cyanide by forming thiocyanate. When the body is regularly exposed to cassava cyanogens, the increased synthesis of rhodanese makes extra demands on the body’s reserves of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. To detoxify 1.0 mg hydrocyanic acid (HCN), the body also needs a daily supply of about 1.2 mg of dietary sulfur (S) from S- containing amino acids (SAA). If the demand for rhodanese and SAA is prolonged, as in the regular consumption of cassava, and the diet is inadequate, the synthesis of many proteins vital for bodily functions may be impaired, leading to the development of protein deficiency diseases.

Cassava – low protein source

Cyanogens alone cannot be blamed for toxicity because other cyanogenic crops, such as sorghum and Lathyrus bean, which are widely used as food, cause few toxicity problems. But the protein contents of these two crops (11.0% and 18.7%, respectively) are higher.

Many cassava products contain very low amounts of cyanogens, which can be efficiently eliminated by the body, if the protein intake is adequate. Cassava roots, being bulky and rich in carbohydrates, free dietary proteins from having to meet the body’s energy needs, thus allowing them to be used more efficiently. However, the level of protein in cassava lags far behind the levels found in rice, wheat, and tuber crops (Figure 1). An adult consuming 1 kg of cassava has to ingest 52 g of protein from other sources to obtain the U.S. recommended daily allowance (RDA) of 65 g protein per adult. In contrast, 1 kg of wheat supplies 121 g of protein and rice, 61 to 64 g of protein.

If protein intake is more than adequate for both general metabolic requirements and cyanide elimination, toxic effects are lessened or even eliminated, even if cassava is improperly processed. (Fatal poisoning can result from ingestion of large amounts of unprocessed or poorly processed high-cyanogen cassava.) Hence, the lack of protein in cassava roots is probably responsible for most non-fatal cases of cyanide poisoning associated with cassava.”
http://www.worldbank.org/html/cgiar/newsletter/Oct96/6cassava.html
——-
Notice it was cassava and not tapioca, that caused the poisonings. Notice also that they weren’t in the US, but in impoverished areas, in developing nations, and there was a lack of sufficient dietary protein.
——-

Nutritional profile of cassava
Cassava root is essentially a carbohydrate source.[27] Its composition shows 60–65 percent moisture, 20–31 percent carbohydrate, 1–2 percent crude protein and a comparatively low content of vitamins and minerals. However, the roots are rich in calcium and vitamin C and contain a nutritionally significant quantity of thiamine, riboflavin and nicotinic acid. Cassava starch contains 70 percent amylopectin and 20 percent amylose. Cooked cassava starch has a digestibility of over 75 percent.
Cassava root is a poor source of protein. Despite the very low quantity, the quality of cassava root protein is fairly good in terms of essential amino acids. Methionine, cysteine and cystine are, however, limiting amino acids in cassava root.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Cassava
——

THE HEALTH BENEFITS OF TAPIOCA
Aug 5, 2011 | By Kristi Wray

Conventionally, tapioca, derived from the cassava plant, is best known as a creamy pudding dessert with little sustenance. However, in some in areas like Africa, Asia and South America, tapioca is known better for its nutritional benefits than as a sweet treat. When eaten raw or incorrectly prepared, the plant releases poisonous properties. Thus, tapioca must be prepared correctly to prevent harm and ensure safe eating.

STARCH EQUALS ENERGY
The cassava plant is a root vegetable and a healthy source of carbohydrates. In many countries, it serves as a main dish because of its high starch content. Even better, it is considered a healthy starch because it is low in cholesterol and unhealthy fats. Tapioca can be included in dietary plans to promote healthy weight gain.

GLUTEN-FREE
People suffering with Celiac disease or other conditions that restrict the use of gluten-based foods can use tapioca as an alternative to recipes that use wheat flour. Tapioca flour, which does not contain any gluten, is a healthier alternative to wheat flour. Both tapioca flour and tapioca starch can be used as a thickening agent in cream-based sauces and gravies.

MINERALS
Calcium, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium can be found in tapioca in varying amounts. If you are preparing a more processed form of the root, like a pudding mix, you will receive a smaller amount of these minerals than if you were to consume tapioca starch or flour. Tapioca is also a good source of iron, and, in particular, dry tapioca pearls contain up to 13 percent of your daily value of iron. B-vitamins, including folic acid, which is extremely vital for pregnant women, are also found in tapioca.

DIETARY FIBER
Over the years, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has placed extreme importance on the consumption of dietary fiber on a daily basis for a healthier lifestyle. The cassava root has a significant amount of dietary fiber in its natural form. According to the USDA, foods high in dietary fiber can help lower cholesterol, decrease the rate of colon cancer, and lower the risk of diabetes and heart disease.” http://www.livestrong.com/article/509033-the-health-benefits-of-tapioca/
—–

So there you have it. A factual picture of tapioca starch, without the scare tactics.

[Melissaandcrew]

HI Ramona-

Sorry to hear you and your pooch are going through this. My dobergal has the same issues, and like yours, grain free did not make a lick of difference. I tried foods from “low level” up to home cooked, raw, grain free, grain inclusive, commercial raw etc etc. We would find a food, she would do well on it for a few months, and then suddenly, back to the same issues. For mine, probiotics and enzymes did not work, but for others they do. Unfortunately, its hit or miss. Recently, I put her on Abady granular, with their canned, and now a touch of dry(dave’s for sensitive stomachs) and so far so good. I think the dry causes more of an issue than the granular or canned however and may cut that out all together.

A quick fix to rest her digestive tract may be to have your vet prescribe metronidazole or tylan powder-tylan can be used long term, not the metronidazole.

[husky3]

Thank you for your response, Pugsmom & Patty!

I just looked into the body condition score, and I think she would fall somewhere between a 6 & 7 on the scale of 1-9, or a 4/5 on the other scale. She does have a little bit of a waistline when standing above her looking down, & an abdominal cut when looking from the side. Her ribs are “palpable with difficulty” closer to the spine, but can be slightly felt on her belly. I can not quite feel her hip bones, and the fatty deposit between the hip bones is a bit thick for my liking. It’s difficult to tell through all her fur, maybe I should giver her a bath to get a better idea! 🙂

We’ll work on getting the ideal Body Condition score rather than looking at the scale, as I just kept getting disappointed and frustrated with the increased effort & lack of results.

I’m still going to look into a possible allergy/toxin, but continue our regimen of increased exercise and decreased calories. She just may be a real “husky” Husky after all! Oh, and we’re doing more research in hopes of starting them on the raw prey model diet.

If there is a way to post pictures, let me know and I’ll post one for comparison.

Thanks again!

[weimlove]

Oh ok thanks! Definintly don’t want any MSG!

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’d avoid anything with “broth” or “natural flavoring” – both can contain MSG. By law, if the MSG is created by process and not added separately, the company doesn’t have to disclose that the product contains MSG. I know my grocery store sells all natural chicken thighs with no antibiotics or additives for under $2/lb. and and a lot of the time if I can catch things on the sell by date, they’ll be 50% off.