[Hound Dog Mom]

DoggieDoc22 –

“One last thing, don’t buy into the marketing machine and get all hung up on ingredients. Your dog needs nutrients, not ingredients. Its protein, fat, and carbohydrate levels that are important, not corn, soy, potato, etc.”

Question, if a new meal replacement bar came onto the market for humans that contained all the essential vitamins, minerals and amino acids (synthetically added) a human needs plus adequate levels of protein, fat and carbohydrates and the main ingredients were refined grains, high fructose corn syrup and partially-hydrogenated oil would you quit eating real food and eat this for every meal? I mean it contains the necessary “nutrients”, right? Hopefully that analogy makes you understand how ridiculous your statement is.

Ingredients matter. As I told you on another thread – you can’t put ground chuck into recipe and get filet mignon in the end. Garbage is garbage. Yes, all living things need nutrients but these nutrients (or at least the majority of these nutrients) should be derived from fresh, whole, species-appropriate foods. I’ll give you some food (no pun intended) for thought.

1) Many health organizations (including the U.S. Cancer Institute and the United Kingdom Health Department) advise humans to get their nutrients from whole foods and not synthetic supplements (shouldn’t our pets do the same?). When dealing with synthetic nutrients, the chance for overdose is much higher – chance of overdose is minimal when consuming whole foods. Errors in compounding synthetic concoctions happen and pets die – for example the excess vitamin d recall. You don’t have to worry about there “accidentally” being too much vitamin d when the vitamin d source is real, whole foods.

2) You say that the inclusion of ingredients such as “corn, soy and potato” are inconsequential – what matters it the “guaranteed analysis” of the end result. So a mixture of corn, soy and potato is perfectly fine as long as the protein, fat and carbohydrate levels are where they need to be and the food is pumped up with artificial nutrients to account for the lack of nutrients in the ingredients themselves, right? Well let’s examine these ingredients that you say are fine to feed:

-Soy: contains anti-nutrients which hinder the ability of digestive enzymes needed for proper digestion; contains phytates which limit the body’s ability to absorb key nutrients such as zinc, magnesium and calcium; loaded with isoflavones that disrupt endocrine function and have been linked to infertility and breast cancer (in humans); contains goitrogens which block the synthesis of thyroid hormones; most soy is genetically modified (studies in animals have linked consumption of GMO ingredients to negative hepatic, pancreatic, renal and reproductive side effects that may alter the hematological, biochemical and immunologic parameters).
-Corn: contains lectins, has a high glycemic index, one of the most genetically modified crops (see above), highly susceptible to aflatoxin contamination.
-Potatoes: also commonly genetically modified (see above), high glycemic index, contain lectins, can contain the toxin solanine.

3) Most of the low-grade foods that contain corn, soy and the like also contain animal by-products. Are animal by-products inherently bad? No – my dogs love fresh organ meat, chicken feet, beef tracheas, etc. (from animals slaughtered for human consumption) and I love allowing them to eat fresh, quality by-products. However fresh quality by-products are not what is in pet food. Many grocery store quality brands of dog food have tested positive for pentobarbital – this means that the by-products contain euthanized animals (potentially even dogs and cats). Pento is recognized as a serious danger to wildlife. Wildlife that feed on disposed euthanized animals often die of pento poisoning – so is this a safe ingredient to be feeding to our beloved pets? I think not. Also – most by-product meals, while undoubtedly high in protein, contain very low quality protein derived from feathers, beaks and the like. This protein is poorly digested and puts a strain on the animals kidneys over time (unlike high quality, digestible protein derived from fresh meat).

Your view of pet food ingredients is simplistic, to say the least. It’s necessary to look at the bigger picture, food isn’t as simple as “fat, protein and carbohydrates.”

[DoggieDoc22]

The thing that you have to keep in mind is that you should only be using these reviews as a guide, not as gospel. Basically all of the reviews are based upon reading the information that can be found on the packaging, and writing review about that. All of that information can be drastically skewed by dog food manufacturers. For example, ingredients are listed on the ingredient deck in order of weight, including water. So an ingredient such as whole chicken (which contains a lot of water weight), is going to show up higher on an ingredient deck than chicken meal, even though there may be a larger volume of chicken meal in the diet. Also, some manufacturers will use several different types of carbohydrates in their diets, rather than using just one to alter the ingredient deck. This can be done intentionally to prevent any individual source of carbs from appearing high on the ingredient deck.

One other important aspect to keep in mind is whether a company manufactures their own foods, conducts feeding trials, or researches the diets they come out with. Blue Buffalo is a huge culprit of this. They have a 5 star rating on DFA because their diets are high in protein and grain free (traits which DFA seems to value highly). However, what you don’t see is that all of their diets are produced at copacking facilities which can lead to inconsistency in quality, the inability to control the quality of the ingredients that are actually used to manufacture the food, and exposure to contaminants (ie the Diamond recall early last year). Also, DFA doesn’t mention that Blue Buffalo does not conduct feeding trials, or do any type of research on their diets. These facts should lead to a lower rating for a food like Blue Buffalo, but are simply overlooked by dogfoodadvisor.

One last thing, don’t buy into the marketing machine and get all hung up on ingredients. Your dog needs nutrients, not ingredients. Its protein, fat, and carbohydrate levels that are important, not corn, soy, potato, etc.

[billhill]

Having witnessed quite a few dietary trends in my years, I offer only the advice to keep an open mind. As Dr. Mike says elsewhere on this blog,we have to be careful not to fall into “nutrition-ism.” I would define nutrition-ism as allowing feelings from other segments of life to overly influence how we view nutritional information. Just one example of that would be to insist that dogs should have a vegetarian diet. (Nope, sounds silly to me!)

I’d like to respectfully suggest that having SOME carbohydrates in your dog’s’ diets is not advocating for a high carbohydrate diet. Further, vegetables have starches in them so we’re not just talking about grain Generalizing about all dogs is not helpful when each of us has one or more specific dogs, i.e. real individuals. We humans have different digestive and dietary experiences, right???? I know what my dogs can and cannot digest, and will continue to vary their diets to get them the nutrition they need. I don’t give my dogs grains in significant amounts, but their kibble does have carbs from sweet potatoes. And lots of vitamin A!!

I’ve met several dog owners who feed kibble to one dog and raw to another, based on real individual experience with each critter. Let’s continue to love one another and our dogs, and not get tensed up about dietary concepts.

Pax vobicsum from Richmond, Va, Y’all!

Bill

[soho]

Thank you HDM

Artemis maximal has lab values for the food and the carbs are 17.8% on a DMB. Here’s the link for the Artemis maximal:

http://www.artemiscompany.com/analysis_maximal_dog.html

NV Instinct chicken has the same numbers for protein, fat and moisture on the GA as Artemis Maximal so unless I can get the actual carb content or the actual Protein, fat, ash and moisture content your 18% carb estimate is probably correct. I mean you were only 2 tenths of a percent off on your Artemis maximal estimate!

When I do the math for the two epigens the carb content is 5.5% estimated. I will email Wysong and see if I can get some actual numbers.

Protein 60% (min)
Fat 11% (min)
Fiber 3.5% (max)
Moisture 12% (max)
Ash 8% (estimate)

This list will be constantly updated but for right now it looks like the kibbles with the lowest carb content are in order from low to high:

Wysong Epigen 60 and 90, 11% carbs (DFA estimate)
Natura Evo Turkey & chicken 12%, red meat 15% and herring 18% carbs (NFE)
Artemis Maximal 17.8% carbs (actual)
Natures Variety Instinct Chicken 18% (HDM & my estimate)

Thanks again HDM!

[soho]

Hi Krist

A lot of dogs seem to be on only one type of insulin and it is usually a medium acting insulin which has a slope like a long in distance, short in height hill. This type of insulin makes it pretty impossible to control diabetes well. A dog must eat at the same times each day and the same amount of food at each meal.

In humans the best control of blood sugars is achieved using a very long acting insulin like lantus combined with a short acting insulin like humulin R. The short acting insulin is taken about 30 to 45 minutes before meals and the long acting insulin is taken once or twice daily to cover the glucose that is constantly being produced by the liver.

This type of insulin regimen requires more daily injections but it allows for several things that are not possible with a more simple insulin regimen:

1)Meals can be eaten at any time of day or night.
2)Meals don’t always have to be the same size and contain the exact same amount of carbs.
3)If your dog is sick or not eating you don’t have to freak out because you are worried that your dog will have low blood sugar because they didn’t eat.
4) You can adjust one of the insulins without also increasing or decreasing the size and content of meals.
5) Your dog will have much better control of his/her diabetes.

With the more intense insulin regimen meals and liver metabolism are handled separately allowing for a more effective control of blood glucose.

FOODS

I believe that carbs are the enemy of anything (human, dog or otherwise) that has diabetes. I don’t agree with the Glycemic Research Institute that dry foods such as Nutrisca and Orijen are optimal for a dog with diabetes. Nutrisca has an estimated 36% carbs on a dry matter basis. Orijen has 25% carbs as estimated using the NFE (nitrogen free extract) method (this is extremely reliable). I think either % of carbs is waaay too much for a diabetic dog. If there were several foods with let’s say a carb content below 15% then I would look for the one with the lowest glycemic load. But if one food has 35% carbs and another food has 15% carbs it wouldn’t matter to me what the glycemic load of the first food was, I would choose the food with only 15% carbs!!!!

In dry foods (kibbles) the lowest carb content I have found is EVO which ranges from 12 to 18% carbs depending on the variety and Epigen (Thank you Hound Dog Mom) which has only 11% carbs in either of the 2 formulas.

In wet foods maybe you could just add some fresh meat which is in the same family (red, poultry or fish) that you are feeding at any particular meal. You are guaranteed a much higher quality topper if you add your own rather than a canned food.

Good Luck!!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi dave and AngieH –

The difficult thing with colitis is that it can have many different causes and it can be acute or chronic. Dietary changes often can help ease the symptoms of colitis. Most dogs with colitis respond well to increased levels of dietary fiber and/or a hypoallergenic diet. Many dogs with colitis also seem to better tolerate foods that are lower in fat. When trying a new food make sure that you don’t feed anything else to your dog during the trial period (no treats!) and give the diet three to six weeks to see if there is improvement (remember, the improvement won’t be immediate and in some cases your dog’s diarrhea can even worsen in the initial stages of the switch as the dog is becoming accustomed to the new food).

For increasing the fiber level, rather then looking specifically for a high-fiber food, I would recommend just adding some canned pumpkin or psyllium to a high quality food. Both are high in fiber and will increase the overall fiber content of the food being fed.

For choosing a hypoallergenic diet you want to pick a food that has a protein source and carbohydrate source (if applicable) that your dog has never been exposed to. Making a homemade food is a great option here.

Two supplements I would definitely start immediately
1. Probiotics – these will help replenish the good bacteria in the dog’s digestive tract and keep pathenogenic bacteria in check.
2. Digestive Enzymes – These will give the dog a boost in digesting their food so the dog’s already stressed digestive system doesn’t have to work as hard at producing its own enzymes.

Some other supplements you may want to try that have proved successful for some dogs suffering from colitis:
1. L-glutamine – An amino acid that helps to repair the mucosal lining of the digestive tract.
2. Slippery Elm – An herb that helps to sooth the digestive tract and relieve inflammation.

I think in the case of colitis, that a high quality home-prepared diet would be best and most easily customizable to the dog’s individual needs. However, here are some commercial foods that are hypo-allergenic and lower in fat that may be worth considering:
1. The Honest Kitchen’s Zeal – Dehydrated, fish-based food, 9% fat on a dry-matter basis.
2. Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance Rabbit – Freeze-dried food, 15% fat on a dry-matter basis.
3. Nature’s Variety Instinct – Limited Ingredient dry foods are all under 20% fat on a dry-matter basis and include a turkey, duck and lamb variety.
4. Addiction’s Dry Foods – salmon-based, venison-based and lamb-based options, all around 13% fat on a dry-matter basis.
5. Addiction Dehydrated Foods – brush-tail, kangaroo, venison, lamb offerings, all around 9% fat on a dry-matter basis.
6. Addiction Canned Foods – brushtail, venison and salmon are only 10% fat on a dry-matter basis.
7. Great Life – Dry foods Buffalo Rx and Duck Rx are both 13% fat on a dry-matter basis.
8. Tiki Dog – canned food with some low fat hypoallergenic options.
9. California Natural Grain-Free – kangaroo, salmon, lamb and venison options, all 13% fat or less on a dry-matter basis.

*Some of the foods I recommended are a little low in protein for my taste, unfortunately when feeding a commercial food most of the foods that are lower in fat and that contain a novel protein also contain less overall meat and thus less protein – this is why I think homemade is the best option. If you are feeding one of the lower protein dehydrated or kibbled foods I’d highly recommend adding one of the recommended canned foods to boost the overall protein content. Also, this is not an exhaustive list – check out the foods Dr. Mike has reviewed on DFA and you’ll likely be able to find more – these are just some brands that first came to mind.

Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

That was a really interesting article, however it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Dogs may be able to digest carbohydrates more efficiently than their ancestors, but is there any proof that a dog does better on a high carbohydrate diet versus a low carbohydrate diet with higher levels protein and fat? Is there anything proving that carbohydrates are superior to fat as an energy source for dogs? Dogs may digest carbohydrates fine – but what are the health implications of long term consumption of the lectins, phytates and gluten that can be found in many carbohydrate-rich foods?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Betsy –

Very good questions!

To give my opinion on your first question – my answer would be that it depends on what kind of food we’re talking about. If we’re talking about kibble – a food in which a carbohydrate binder is required – I would put foods that utilize pseudo-grains as binders on the same level as “grain-free” foods that use potato, tapioca or legumes. So if, for example, there I had two kibbles to choose from and each had an equal amount of protein and fat, one used millet as a starch and one used tapioca – I would give no preference. As for a homemade diet in which it’s possible to not use any starches, no I wouldn’t add any pseudograins (unless they were sprouted!) or any other starches for that matter.

To answer your second question – yes, pseudo-grains are susceptible to aflatoxin contamination. But, keep in mind, it’s not only grains and pseudo-grains that can be contaminated with aflatoxin. Many seeds (such as sunflower seeds and cottonseeds), nuts (coconut, almonds, pistachios, walnuts, peanuts), spices (turmeric, ginger, chile peppers, black pepper, coriander) and even dairy products derived from animals fed feed that contained aflatoxin are commonly contaminated with aflatoxin.

[billhill]

This seems to build on and go beyond the information on dog evolution and diet in Steve Brown’s books, which are also reflected elsewhere on this blog. While most current thinking acknowledges that most dogs are able to digest and benefit from carbohydrates. this article indicates that dogs have more genes for amylase (enzyme that breaks down starches) than wolves do. This should make the discussions about “paleo” dog diets more colorful and complicated!

LINK TO WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE FOLLOWS:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/learning-to-love-cereal-was-key-to-the-evolution-of-dogs/2013/01/23/30c47500-6510-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_story.html?hpid=z2

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Setrina –

Grains are not species-appropriate for dogs. Dogs have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates. A dog’s diet should be high in protein, moderate in fat and low in carbohydrates. Most (not all, but most) grain-inclusive foods are low in protein and fat and high in carbohydrates. Grain-free foods tend to be higher in protein and lower and carbohydrates – but you still have to be sure to check the label, there are some companies that just remove the grains and replace them with equal amounts of starches like white potato, tapioca or peas (these aren’t species-appropriate foods either so you want to look for a food with minimal amounts of starches). Because a grain free food will contain some sort of starch, just make sure protein content is at least 30% so you know there’s a high volume of meat in the food. Some other downsides of grains are that many contain gluten (a common trigger of sensitivities), they contain lectins, antinutrients and phytates and grain-inclusive foods are more likely to be contaminated with alfatoxins.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mrs4444 –

Sorry to hear about your dog. Below is a link to an article by Dr. Becker that discusses pano. Dr. Becker says she’s had success supplementing with proteolytic enzymes, calcarea carbonica, arnica and Standard Process’ Musculoskeletal Support. Another poster on this site has a golden pup with pano and I believe she’s supplementing with turmeric and omega 3’s and having luck with that. Also, make sure you don’t let your pup play too hard – heavy activity can aggravate the condition.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/02/27/three-common-bone-growth-conditions-in-puppies-and-young-dogs.aspx

[sisu]

I have a 7 year old who is a spinal walking paraplegic. He has no feeling from the waist down. He can walk due to muscle memory which 10-15% of dogs maintain. There is limited bladder and bowel control. Although the conditions are different our goals in waste management may be the same.

Grain inclusive foods result in big fluffy poop. Grain free with the highest meat content and lowest carbs give the best results when feeding kibble. With a balanced raw diet there is barely any waste. Therefore, the poop is very small, ring finger to little finger size. If Prey Model Raw (PMR) is not an option consider premade raw with the highest meat content. After 5 years of trial and error I have found that EVO Herring and Salmon kibble works very well. As almost a contradiction to my high meat, low carb, low fiber rule Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon also results in small size poop. I suspect it may be due to the digestibility of the menhaden fish meal. Of the two brands EVO poop is smaller. Some companies will send free samples. Use the contact link on their websites to make the request.

I feed as close to 6 am and 6 pm as possible. There are very few treats given. Rewards are enthusiastic chin scratches and lots of happy, verbal praise. By restricting the frequency of food going in I can predict that poop will happen an hour to and hour and a half after each meal. Exercise will cause him to poop sooner rather than later. Anal stimulation either by lightly touching around the outside of the anus or using a KY jelly lubricated thermometer inserted into the rectum with some slight movement will cause him to poop a couple of hours sooner than expected. Although I have rarely used either of these methods they are useful for getting things back on schedule. If used frequently poop on demand becomes the schedule rather than allowing his natural digestion to establish a schedule.

Below is a list of meat protein in various brands of kibble that I have collected from the ‘net. I have not fed these brands. Although I trust the sources of the information I cannot guarantee it.

Dr. Tim’s Momentum 35/25, 96%
Native Level 4, 35/25, 93%
Diamond Extreme Athlete, 93%
Inukshuk 32/32, 95%
Annamet should be 90+%. Specific amt. is not known.
Orijen 82%
Horizon Legacy 80%
Instinct 70%.
Merrick grain free 70%

I am unsure if the constant leg movement your boy has are muscle spasms. If so, daily muscle massage of the legs and along the spine similar to Tellington Touch, gentle repetitive bicycle movement, and flexing the leg joints and toes may help. All is done slowly. Stop if there is a spasm. Resume when the muscles relax. After 2 years of daily massage/flexing therapy Connor has no spasms.

If your dog is being treated by a general vet I would suggest a visit to a veterinary neurologist or neurosurgeon. Not for surgery but to evaluate and treat the current condition. For example, there is medication that can help with muscle spasms. Also, if it is in the budget, professional physical therapy can help with lingering issues. If the carts were not professionally fitted a neurologist or physical therapist may be able to resolve the current problems.

If interested in raw feeding:
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/
http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf

The Paralysis: Neurological and IVDD forum is very helpful and informative.
http://www.handicappedpet.net/helppets/

I hope some of this helps.

[soho]

Hi i8ok

Thank you for your reply! Let’s take a closer look at the Plato Organic Chicken strips.
First the marketing claims:
Over 90% organic chicken
Natural ingredients, fortified with antioxidant vitamins, and zinc
No artificial colors, flavors, synthetic preservatives, or GMO’s (genetically modified organisms)
Naturally preserved.
Antioxidant vitamins E and С
No meat by-products or meals

Second the Actual Numbers and ingredients:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude protein: 30% min
(How in the world are these treats over 90% chicken and only 30% protein?)
Crude fat: 30% min
(Where did all this fat come from if the treats are over 90% chicken?)
Crude fiber: 1% max
Moisture: 15% max
(This moisture level is a little too high in my opinion to guarantee against spoilage.)
Zinc: 180mg/kg min
Vitamin E: 101 lU/kg min
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 50mg/kg min*
Omega 6 Fatty Acids –
Omega 3 Fatty Acids –
Iron –

INGREDIENTS
Organic chicken, organic brown rice, salt, zinc propionate, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2phosphate (a source of vitamin C), mixed tocopherols (a natural preservative), rosemary extract.

—————————————————————————————————————————-

Now lets take a look at the facts about my chicken jerky:
Made from boneless, skinless chicken breasts bought at the deli section of Costco. This is not pet grade chicken. I know that there are a million marketing claims concerning the chicken in pet foods and treats but not one of the commercial brands are made using supermarket meat like I use. This is the same meat that you and your family eat.

You say you wont eat farm raised fish or feed it to your dog. I respect you for that. But why would you feed your dog pet grade chicken which is a by product of the human grade food business? Pet grade chicken (or any other pet grade meat for that matter) is what is left over after everything that can be used for human grade chicken is removed! And that’s the good stuff. The bad pet grade meats are the Dead, Dying, Downed or Diseased meats that never made into the human food chain in the first place!

Ingredients: 99.8% boneless skinless chicken breasts, salt, garlic. The only thing added to my chicken jerky is 0.2% spices (salt and garlic).

Guaranteed analysis as fed:
Protein 87%
(You read that right 87% now what treat could be better for a meat eater)
Fat 4.5%
(This is what the fat could be in other products if they used the same chicken breasts that I do)
Carbohydrate 0%
(Remember dogs have no biological need for carbs)
Minerals 3.5%
(This is what ash is)
Fiber 0%
Moisture 5%
(5% moisture is low enough to ensure against spoilage)

The chicken I use is Whole Chicken Breasts intended FOR human consumption. Not ground pet grade chicken (Plato)

My chicken jerky is JUST chicken and 0.2% spices. Plato uses brown rice as a filler.

When you look at the facts my jerky is a great value. Compare my jerky to other human grade jerky products sold for human consumption and you will see that my jerky is an OUTSTANDING value!

Thank you aimee

[pugmomsandy]

Not saying what you said is misleading, but in general if I were on the review pages, and asked what food should I give my diabetic dog, and I got a reply of find the lowest carb food without being informed what an ideal low carb food is, how protein and fat are distributed in the ancestral diet and so on, then I only have part of the info I need since diabetes and caring for a dog with diabetes is not simple and then having to look up all different foods because they all have different pro/fat/carbs within each line of dog food can be really daunting for someone. And then learning that the fat listed on most foods is just a minimum can be worrisome. Can really get confusing! That’s why the opening of the forum has been great! Can go in depth about matters and not clog up the reviews.

[Hound Dog Mom]

The carbohydrate content listed on EVO’s website isn’t on a dry matter basis, however the carbohydrate content Dr. Mike has listed is still way off the mark. EVO lists the carbohydrate content as 12% – converting percents to a dry matter basis for kibble doesn’t alter anything significantly as the moisture content of kibble is so low -and converting to dry matter basis only changes it by 1%, it’s 13% carbohydrates (max) on a dry matter basis. 13% is a big difference from the 21% carbohydrates stated on the EVO review. Like Sandy said, Dr. Mike estimates the ash content, so the carbohydrate contents listed on his reviews are most generally not going to be accurate, they give a good idea but without the actual ash content there’s no way of knowing the actual carbohydrate content. If someone really wanted the actual carbohydrate content of a food they’re better off contacting the company directly.

[pugmomsandy]

Dr Mike also uses 8% as ash although some are higher or lower. That still can’t account for the real fat content or protein content in a food as they are minumums.

And looking for a food solely based on carb content for diabetes can be misleading or detrimental for some. There are some situations where just the lowest carbs are just not healthy for a dog such as a high fat diet or one with a fat-to-protein ratio above 100%. An active/working dog can handle that much better than a sedentary dog. So feeding a high fat but “low carb” food to the sedentary house dog with diabetes can end up with a dog that has both diabetes and pancreatitis.

There’s never a one food fits all or look for one characteristic of a food that will work for all dogs with diabetes. And unfortunately if you don’t make your own food, you will never know the amount your feeding of fat from a commercial food.

[soho]

Hi HDM

Thank you again. I just quickly looked at the formulas for epigen and epigen 90. Although they both contain 60% protein the regular epigen contains an undetermined amount of vegetable proteins. The epigen 90 is 90% meat and organs with no apparent vegetable proteins.

They both must have a carbohydrate content lower then even EVO! I will look into them more thoroughly and post what I find.

Thanks again HDM

[soho]

Hi HDM

Thank you for the explanations of glycemic load and glycemic index.

As for the effect of different binders on blood sugar I think that the amount of carbs regardless of the glycemic load of those carbs is a very important factor. Whatever the glycemic load of a food is the carbs in that food still must be metabolized by the body. The lower the overall carb content of a food the easier it’s going to be to control those carbs with insulin.

[soho]

Hi Mike,

From my understanding Mike S uses a formula to estimate the carbohydrate content of foods. If he had access to the exact percentages of every ingredient in the food he could calculate the carb content more accurately.

On the EVO website they list the carbs in the Guaranteed analysis tab and the foods are as follows:
Turkey and Chicken, Carbohydrates 12% Max
Herring and Salmon, Carbohydrates 18% Max
Red Meat, Carbohydrates 15% Max

So the actual carb content of EVO’s dog foods is between 12% and 18%. At that low level the binder (potatoes) would not affect the blood sugar as much as let’s say a food that was 30% carbs and used lentils as a binder. Let’s not forget that the overall carbohydrate content of a food is very important and that the lower the carbs the better the food is going to be for a diabetic dog.

As far as kibbles go these foods are the lowest in carbs that I know of. If anyone knows of other kibbles this low in Carbohydrates please let me know!

Adding fresh foods like meats or fish to any kibble is going to lower the overall carb content and improve the overall quality of the kibble. As for Brother’s kibbles I don’t think I would classify the 35% dry matter basis carbohydrate content as a minimal binder or a low carbohydrate food. Again the carb content of Brother’s kibbles on DFA is just an estimate and anyone who knows the actual carb content please let me know!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Mike P –

You’re right – potato has a high glycemic index. However what you want to look at is glycemic load – glycemic load measures how the food will impact blood sugar based on the amount of the food eaten. Meaning, just because a food contains an ingredient that is high glycemic doesn’t necessarily mean the food as a whole is high glycemic. For example, Orijen contains white potato (a high glycemic ingredient) however, because they use such a small amount of white potato and such a large volume of meat, the food as a whole is low glycemic (certified low glycemic by the glycemic research institute). Looking at EVO’s protein content (without calling the company) I would assume the food is likely low glycemic. Also, not all of EVO’s formulas contain white potato – the weight management formula (which looks like a wonderful option for dogs with diabetes) is white potato free and has 52% protein and 15% fat, the fish formula is white potato free as well. Now on the flip side, you could use a binder with a lower glycemic index than white potato but if the food is a lot lower in protein/contains much less meat and higher in carbs/contains more binder – that food could actually have a greater impact on blood sugar then a food that contains a large volume of meat and a small amount of a high glycemic binder. White potato and tapioca are both high glycemic but if used in a high quality food with a large volume of meat and only minimum amounts of binders, they shouldn’t affect blood sugar significantly. That’s my understanding (James feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).

[soho]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to discuss diet and diabetes. Diabetes is a huge subject to tackle whether it is in regard to people or to pets. I wanted to start the conversation with the question;

“What should I feed my Diabetic dog?”

Without going into the science of Diabetes which would be a very long and complex conversation let’s just discuss what you can do in regards to your dog’s diet to help them live a longer and healthier life.

I have been dealing with my own diabetes for 28 years now and I worked for a Doctor of Osteopathy as a diabetes educator in her Manhattan, NY office. For the last eight years I have counseled many dog guardians on the subject of canine diabetes. I have seen literally thousands of dogs with every kind of health issue through my work with the non profit FreePlay which educates the public on the benefits of off leash recreation areas and with The Pet Wash a local grooming and retail establishment.

The good news is you can really make a difference in your diabetic dog’s well being through their diet. The bad news is diabetes is an insidious disease that can rob your dog of their sight and their life if left unmanaged.

The Canine Ancestral diet which is approximately 55% protein 25 to 30% fat and 15% carbohydrate or on a calorie weighted basis 50% of calories are from protein, 44% from fat, and only 6% from carbohydrate is a good starting point to consider in trying to help the diabetic dog through diet.

The ancestral diet is so low in carbohydrates that it is tailor made for a diabetic dog. You can prepare this type of diet at home using human grade meats and vegetables which we will discuss in another post or you can try to feed your dog a similar diet using commercial foods. I would recommend starting with a balanced raw diet that does not contain bones and lightly cooking it. I would cook it lightly because a lot of diabetic dogs are not in the best health and their ability to deal with the bacteria and microbes that are in the raw food is probably compromised.

Second choice would be a dehydrated food such as The Honest Kitchen. THK is a quality food that uses only human grade ingredients in all of their formulas. The problem with THK is it is lower in protein that what I would suggest. This can be remedied by adding about 20% lightly cooked meat to each of the recipes. I would stick with similar proteins like fowl for the turkey or chicken formulas, fish for the fish formulas and red meat for the beef formulas.

Next would be a canned food that has no grains or other starches like potatoes. I would look for a canned food that was mostly meats with a little vegetables.

Lastly would be kibble. Kibbles require starch to bind the ingredients. They also are the most processed of all the commercial diets available for dogs. They also are dry and nutrient dense. I would suggest that a diabetic dog be fed a high moisture diet like a fresh food or a dehydrated after it is rehydrated or a canned food. Moisture helps ease the burden of the kidneys which are one of the organs that are affected by diabetes.

If you must feed a kibble for whatever reason then I would look to a kibble like EVO which is only 12 percent carbohydrates. The lowest carb highest protein kibble would be the only kibble I would consider feeding a dog with diabetes. Unfortunately once a dog has diabetes the controlling of this disease would be of paramount importance to me and I would no longer be as concerned with considering all of the qualities of an individual dog food and I would mostly focus on feeding a high protein, low carbohydrate and high moisture diet

Questions anyone?

• This topic was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by soho.

[theBCnut]

I feed grain free and would use Zukes as training treats for 2 of my 3 dogs. I have 2 that get grainfree because I believe it is best, but I allow a small amount of treats to be junk food. I have one dog that can’t handle grains or even much carbs and all his treats are pure meat except that I just got him some special grain and potato free low carb biscuits that I still only give him less than one a day. The majority of all my training treats are still meat for all of my dogs.

[BrothersDogFood]

Toxed

Thanks for such a comprehensive look at Cassava root to help dismiss some of the negative hype that’s been circulating lately. So allow me to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

One of the things about Cassava that is often overlooked is that as much as 50% is in an insoluble form that feeds the good bacteria in the gut and doesn’t really contribute to the Glycemic index load in the blood stream. So it’s a carbohydrate that binds the meat and fat part of the formula while half of it is used to strengthen the immune system and feed the good bacteria in the gut to keep the system healthy. In effect one half the carbs in the cassava root are not really used by the regular system nor do they effect it directly.

They are basically “encapsulated” so the main system doesn’t have access to them and delivered to a sub-system in the body – which is the bacterial colony in the gut – and this bacterial colony (which has 10X the number of cells than the entire rest of the body combined) is essential in maintaining the immune system and the healthy functioning of the rest of the system. Actually, if you were to replace the Cassava with some more meat it wouldn’t be nearly as healthy for the system as a whole. THe work that the Cassava does in maintaining gut health is far more beneficial than some additional amino acid sequences in extra protein.

All carbohydrates are NOT created equal – some are actually very beneficial – even to a dog. Dogs may not have a “need” for carbohydrates but that doesn’t mean that certain carbs in proper quantities can’t be used judiciously to benefit the dog’s system. In fact even if I were to feed an all raw diet, knowing what I now know about Cassava root and gut biology, I would add it to the raw food. While many of us have a tendency to want to see life in black and white terms, me included, because it simplifies everything and reduces the complexity to manageable levels….it seems that life is actually mostly composed of shades of gray.

This years Nobel prize in Physics went to 2 men who found a way to design an experiment that proved that one aspect of the Quantum world, which is the basis of our physical reality, is so strange that Einstein died convinced that what they just proved was absolutely impossible. I won’t go into it but what they proved to be quite real is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stranger than the idea that a certain carb source, in proper proportion, might actually be more beneficial to a dog than if it weren’t in the dogs diet. Just a little food for the open mind.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Jack,
Its a good thing tapioca is used minimally in high end kibbles then, – just as a binder. Not like the corn based kibbles, which are mostly high glycemic starches. Though it is interesting that there is research showing animal fat & protein mediates glucose spikes & that endocrine disrupting hormones have a greater impact than modest carbohydrate consumption.

I ran a quick search and diabetics are allowed to eat some tapioca… It just has to be balanced.
Here’s a quote from a diabetes support site. Granted its from a human type I site, but the research said that because there wasn’t much on dogs, it was acceptable to correlate human diabetes Type I information to dogs.

“- Vegetables that should be consumed in limited quantities by diabetics are: High sugar vegetables and root vegetables like carrot, potato, beetroot, colocasia, sweet potato, yam, tapioca and other vegetables like artichoke, green plantain, tender jackfruit, broad beans, double beans, cluster beans.”

So limited quantities, not none. I certainly wouldn’t feed any of my dogs any predominantly starch based diet, tapioca or not. They weren’t designed to eat starch, as a staple. I prefer to feed a balanced raw, according to Steve Brown’s book, and Dr. Becker & Beth Taylor’s book. I feed raw & kibble because I can’t count on my health being stable. Like today, I started out great, but had a bad crash at 2:00, recovered and had a major crash at 6:00. Luckily I got on top of that one and am recovering fairly well at the moment. So I picked the absolute best kibble I could, for my girls, because I know my husband. He’s not going to feed raw if I croak over. I want them to all go on with as minimum disruption as possible. I feel the percentages of carbs, including the tapioca, and their combined glycemic indexes as compared to the meat, fat, bone, ratios & the ratios of other ingredients of Brother’s Complete Fish formula is the best. I also like how it doesn’t have the toxins that I see in a number of other “high end” kibbles. And according to some research papers, those dietary toxins are being recognized as having a much greater influence on promoting diabetes Type I (the kind that dogs typically get), than previously thought. My2¢

[billhill]

I have a question about supplementing dry kibble. I’ve begun to supplement kibble, alternating things such as hardboiled eggs + greenbeans, canned kirkland cuts in gravy, canned unsalted sardines, etc. I understand the point that variation and addition of high quality protein are good. This also makes my puppies happy (2 yr old corgie/lab, 2 yr old beagle/walker hound).

In the 1970’s and 80’s, I learned about the phenomenon of protein “complementarity” in human diets, i.e. protein supplements and combinations from different sources (EXAMPLES: beans and rice in Mexican cuisine, rice and lentils in Indian cuisine). If a specific amino acid is low in one source, it can be balanced out by the proteins in another source. I’m no longer a strict vegetarian, but I can attest from personal experience that this works. I still love vegetarian food.

QUESTION 1: Does this work for dogs? Can adding eggs increase the benefit of other proteins in the doggie bowl?

QUESTION 2: Do dogs have a “preferential” metabolism that burns carbs before proteins? If so has inclusion of carbs been shown to reduce the benefit of proteins in the dogs’ diets?

QUESTION 3: How would I calculate the impact of adding dried egg white or canned sardines to the kibble of each of my roughly 30 lb dogs in terms of additional protein, protein as % weight. Each gets 1 cup of small bites kibble, twice a day.

Looking forward to informed opinions. Thanks.

Bill

[Toxed2loss]

Tapioca is one of the alternative starches being used in higher end kibbles. Its gluten free, non-GMO, and when properly processed, non-toxic. In order to make, and bind kibble you must use a certain amount of starch. Tapioca is a good choice in that it is nontoxic, gluten & lectin free.

There is a lot of misinformation being disseminated about tapioca, so lets review the facts and set the record straight. There are no poisonings from properly processed tapioca flour. In fact, most poisonings occur in famine stricken areas where the starving individuals try to take short cuts in processing the raw cassava or manioc root. This is well documented. Tapioca has been safely consumed for thousands of years and is the main staple starch in African, Indonesian and South American diets. “500 million people rely on cassava as their main source of calories, among them subsistence farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa…”Richard Sayre, a professor of plant biology at Ohio State University
—-

“The Culprit in Cassava Toxicity: Cyanogens or Low Protein?
by G. Padmaja

The starchy roots of cassava (Manihot esculenta Crantz) are already a staple for about 500 million people of tropical Africa, Asia, and Latin America, but countless others might also benefit from this food if it were not for the sensationalism that sometimes surrounds the crop’s potential toxicity.
The cassava plant carries two cyanogenic glucosides, linamarin and lotaustralin, in its edible roots and leaves. The amounts of these potentially toxic compounds vary considerably, according to cultivar and growing conditions. “Sweet” varieties usually have such small amounts as to be innocuous, whereas “bitter” varieties have sufficiently high levels to require domestic processing to remove most of the toxins.

In situations where famine or extreme poverty may force a population to eat poorly processed cassava in a diet that is also deficient in nutrients such as protein, the plant’s cyanogenic glucosides can lead to poisoning. A classic case was the infantile kwashiorkor epidemic in famine-stricken Biafra in 1968, but there have also been recent examples of spastic paraparesis, or konzo, in drought-stricken regions of Mozambique and Tanzania.

Detoxifying cassava

Farming populations who cultivate cassava have developed many methods of detoxifying cassava. Boiling and drying are sufficient to make low-cyanogen cultivars safe for consumption, but more rigorous procedures such as grating, fermenting, and sun-drying, are necessary to effectively remove cyanogens from cultivars of higher toxicity.

The protein link

Whenever a chronic disease has been linked to cassava consumption, the victims have also been found to suffer from protein deficiency, suggesting a relationship between the two.

Protein is essential for all the body’s vital functions, and for eliminating certain dietary toxins. With the help of the enzyme rhodanese, the human body detoxifies cyanide by forming thiocyanate. When the body is regularly exposed to cassava cyanogens, the increased synthesis of rhodanese makes extra demands on the body’s reserves of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. To detoxify 1.0 mg hydrocyanic acid (HCN), the body also needs a daily supply of about 1.2 mg of dietary sulfur (S) from S- containing amino acids (SAA). If the demand for rhodanese and SAA is prolonged, as in the regular consumption of cassava, and the diet is inadequate, the synthesis of many proteins vital for bodily functions may be impaired, leading to the development of protein deficiency diseases.

Cassava – low protein source

Cyanogens alone cannot be blamed for toxicity because other cyanogenic crops, such as sorghum and Lathyrus bean, which are widely used as food, cause few toxicity problems. But the protein contents of these two crops (11.0% and 18.7%, respectively) are higher.

Many cassava products contain very low amounts of cyanogens, which can be efficiently eliminated by the body, if the protein intake is adequate. Cassava roots, being bulky and rich in carbohydrates, free dietary proteins from having to meet the body’s energy needs, thus allowing them to be used more efficiently. However, the level of protein in cassava lags far behind the levels found in rice, wheat, and tuber crops (Figure 1). An adult consuming 1 kg of cassava has to ingest 52 g of protein from other sources to obtain the U.S. recommended daily allowance (RDA) of 65 g protein per adult. In contrast, 1 kg of wheat supplies 121 g of protein and rice, 61 to 64 g of protein.

If protein intake is more than adequate for both general metabolic requirements and cyanide elimination, toxic effects are lessened or even eliminated, even if cassava is improperly processed. (Fatal poisoning can result from ingestion of large amounts of unprocessed or poorly processed high-cyanogen cassava.) Hence, the lack of protein in cassava roots is probably responsible for most non-fatal cases of cyanide poisoning associated with cassava.”
http://www.worldbank.org/html/cgiar/newsletter/Oct96/6cassava.html
——-
Notice it was cassava and not tapioca, that caused the poisonings. Notice also that they weren’t in the US, but in impoverished areas, in developing nations, and there was a lack of sufficient dietary protein.
——-

Nutritional profile of cassava
Cassava root is essentially a carbohydrate source.[27] Its composition shows 60–65 percent moisture, 20–31 percent carbohydrate, 1–2 percent crude protein and a comparatively low content of vitamins and minerals. However, the roots are rich in calcium and vitamin C and contain a nutritionally significant quantity of thiamine, riboflavin and nicotinic acid. Cassava starch contains 70 percent amylopectin and 20 percent amylose. Cooked cassava starch has a digestibility of over 75 percent.
Cassava root is a poor source of protein. Despite the very low quantity, the quality of cassava root protein is fairly good in terms of essential amino acids. Methionine, cysteine and cystine are, however, limiting amino acids in cassava root.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Cassava
——

THE HEALTH BENEFITS OF TAPIOCA
Aug 5, 2011 | By Kristi Wray

Conventionally, tapioca, derived from the cassava plant, is best known as a creamy pudding dessert with little sustenance. However, in some in areas like Africa, Asia and South America, tapioca is known better for its nutritional benefits than as a sweet treat. When eaten raw or incorrectly prepared, the plant releases poisonous properties. Thus, tapioca must be prepared correctly to prevent harm and ensure safe eating.

STARCH EQUALS ENERGY
The cassava plant is a root vegetable and a healthy source of carbohydrates. In many countries, it serves as a main dish because of its high starch content. Even better, it is considered a healthy starch because it is low in cholesterol and unhealthy fats. Tapioca can be included in dietary plans to promote healthy weight gain.

GLUTEN-FREE
People suffering with Celiac disease or other conditions that restrict the use of gluten-based foods can use tapioca as an alternative to recipes that use wheat flour. Tapioca flour, which does not contain any gluten, is a healthier alternative to wheat flour. Both tapioca flour and tapioca starch can be used as a thickening agent in cream-based sauces and gravies.

MINERALS
Calcium, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium can be found in tapioca in varying amounts. If you are preparing a more processed form of the root, like a pudding mix, you will receive a smaller amount of these minerals than if you were to consume tapioca starch or flour. Tapioca is also a good source of iron, and, in particular, dry tapioca pearls contain up to 13 percent of your daily value of iron. B-vitamins, including folic acid, which is extremely vital for pregnant women, are also found in tapioca.

DIETARY FIBER
Over the years, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has placed extreme importance on the consumption of dietary fiber on a daily basis for a healthier lifestyle. The cassava root has a significant amount of dietary fiber in its natural form. According to the USDA, foods high in dietary fiber can help lower cholesterol, decrease the rate of colon cancer, and lower the risk of diabetes and heart disease.” http://www.livestrong.com/article/509033-the-health-benefits-of-tapioca/
—–

So there you have it. A factual picture of tapioca starch, without the scare tactics.

[pugmomsandy]

Husky3,

Have you taken into account her body condition score? In your first post, you only mentioned she was overweight but not how she looked. So I just wanted to throw that out there. As my small dogs are on a low carb diet, they remain “overweight” but with good body condition scores. I’m going to say they are muscular versus fat. My two small ones are 24 lbs but look like ones that weigh less than 20. My gravatar is one of my small ones. For a pug he is considered overweight! He still has the same harness set at the same size for the past 3 years although he is heavier than 3 years ago. I’ve been feeding them at first low carb kibble and now kibble and raw foods and they just are heavy pugs but not fat. I haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet in this forum. If anyone knows how (using shutterfly) let me know!! For my group, if they were to lose weight to be more inline with the breed standard, they would have to be emaciated! Or lose all their muscles and become weaklings.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If you truly believe his issues are food-related (keep in mind that while it’s definitely possible his issues are food related, it could also be something environmental or behavioral), I’d recommend doing a food allergy elimination trial. Identify the primary protein and carbohydrate source in the foods that have caused the issues and pick a new food that doesn’t contain these protein sources or carbohydrate sources. I’d also go with a high protein/low carbohydrate food and supplement with probiotics and enzymes as this will strengthen the dog’s gut, help to begin the detoxification process and allow for less opportunity for inflammation. I know Dr. Karen Becker recommends her patients keep their dogs that are experiencing food allergies on a hypoallergenic diet like this for three months. After the three month period, reintroduce other protein sources and carbohydrate sources slowly and monitor your dog’s reaction to find out which items cause issues and which don’t. Try to find at least two or three other foods with different protein/carbohydrate sources that you can rotate your dog to every few months to help prevent the development of other allergies later down the road. If it’s something your open to, a lot of dogs with severe food allergies thrive on raw diets. The food is less processed and easier on the digestion system and it’s much easier to tailor a homemade diet to your dog’s needs. Check out healthypets.mercola.com – this is Dr. Karen Becker’s website, she’s a holistic vet and has a lot of good articles. I’m sure others will chime in with more advice. Good luck!

[BryanV21]

Check out commercial raw foods, such as those made by Primal and Nature’s Variety. They offer a variety of different meats, are very low in carbs, and no grains, which makes them much easier for a dog to digest as they aren’t “set-up” to process carbs.

[LabsRawesome]

Hi Morada, Merrick’s received a low glycemic award. Which makes it great for pets that are diabetic, or need low sugar/carbs. You should take a look at Dr. Mike’s list of 5 star canned foods, for more options. I posted the link for you earlier, but the post disappeared. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[theBCnut]

First and foremost, what are you feeding her? My first thought is to try and get her on a high meat protein diet, with moderate fat and low carbs, no grain or white potato. Add digestive enzymes too, so her body has to do as little work as possible to get as much as possible out of her food. I’d like to suggest that you go to Brotherscomplete.com and read their Brothers Document and their FAQs. A lot of allergy and digestive issues in dogs are because we don’t feed them a species appropriate diet and Brothers was designed to address that issue. In my opinion, the only thing you can do better is to start feeding balanced raw.

[Toxed2loss]

Speaking from experience, “UTIs” are often caused by toxic exposures. Some toxins are so harsh that they irritate the bladder lining (interstitial cystitis). It can be so painful it feels like the worse bladder infection you’ve ever had. Some of the chemicals actually burn the delicate urinary tract, even to the point of causing bleeding and allowing infection to take hold. I’ve had them. Sonya (my 16 yr old Toxically Injured Pom) also gets them. Following exposures I can expect Sonya to have to go every 30 min. or more. The more compromised the immune system, the more probable it is that any toxic substances your pet is exposed to are going to end up being eliminated without first being broken down into less toxic, or non-toxic by products.

Jackie mentioned better quality, fresh food. Excellent advice! The better quality food, the more nutrients available to help your dog’s system deal with the event. The more water consumed the more dilute the chemicals, and flushing helps. Making milk thistle diffusions, cooling it and giving it to your pup will soothe and protect the dogs kidneys, ureters, bladder & urethra. Avoiding grains is important. Grains are sugars, sugars feed the bad bacteria in the infection. So check that “prescription diet.” If it is carb heavy, don’t feed it!!!

[theBCnut]

It sound like a systemic yeast problem to me. High starch food feeds yeast in the gut and then it grows out of proportion to other gut flora and ends up affecting the whole dog. Getting on a diet high in animal protein, moderate fat, low carbohydrate, no grain or white potato may help. Also very important is adding pre/probiotics and digestive enzymes. Go to Brotherscomplete.com and read their Brothers document and FAQ to learn more. I’m using Brothers Complete Allergy Formula with great results for my dog with this problem.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sedlypets –

There can be medical conditions responsible for weight gain. I know you got her tested for thyroid issues and that came back negative,but what about Cushing’s? Or is she on any medication that could be causing this?

If you can rule out all heath issues, this means she’s eating too many calories – plain and simple. You say you’re walking her a few miles every other day, this is great but I’d strongly urge you to try and get her exercising daily. I’d switch to a high protein, moderate fat, low carbohydrate (preferably grain-free food). Find out how many calories per cup are in the food she’s eating now, multiply that by how many cups she’s eating per day and what you get will be how many calories she’s eating per day – with whichever food you try feed less calories than this amount. Homemade could be a good option but you’ll need to do a little research – check out dogaware.com and get a book such as Dr. Karen Becker’s “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats.” Also make sure to cut out ALL treats! If she’s burning more calories than she’s eating she will lose weight (granted she has no health issues).

[Hound Dog Mom]

mcaponigro –

I agree. I think some are led to believe a grain-free or grain-free/white potato free food is automatically superior or “species appropriate”, which isn’t the case. There are some wonderful grain-free and white potato free foods, but many more that are low protein, high carb and in no way species-appropriate. Whether the binder is grain, potato, tapioca or legumes – one must keep in mind that none are appropriate foods for a dog (carnivore) to be eating. The most important thing when feeding dry food is – in my opinion – focus more on maximizing meat content and protein content rather than picking a food based on which binder it uses. It’s also important to remember that just because a food contains an ingredient that is high glycemic doesn’t necessarily mean that the food is high glycemic – for an example, Orijen – which contains white potato – is one of the few foods certified low glycemic by the glycemic research institute. I think the only way one can truly avoid these high carb fillers is to go with an all meat or all meat and non-starchy vegetable canned food or feed a homemade diet free from grains and other starches.

[Shawna]

Hi Rainisdog ~~ no, high fiber is not as good.. Actually higher fiber does make the pup feel better but it also causes nutrient loss. Fiber prevents certain minerals from being absorbed. Like Sandy, I’ve had the best luck (with my foster dogs) feeding above average protein, moderate fat and low carbs. I even add high protein canned food as a topper to up the protein even more. My Papillon lost 15 pounds on a diet like this.

I rotate as well so my Pap was getting a variety of foods — Orijen, Brothers, Acana, Nature’s Variety Instinct etc. Even now, at 14 pounds she only gets 1/4 cup per meal with a teaspoon of canned. Any more than that and she gains weight. I only give treats when I leave the house and then only give a treat about the size of a dime or less.

Mimi, my once obese Pap, was 6 when she came to us and started her diet.

[pugmomsandy]

The amount of fiber can affect the consistency of the stool and may or may not help with the feeling of fullness. (Pugs are never full!) As for freeze dried, you still should find a low carb food just like you would kibble and still watch their calories. My dogs seem to like any kind of freeze dried. Same with dehydrated – low carb. This takes more time as you have to add water and wait. Canned foods generally speaking have more meat than kibble and can be lower in carbs than kibble. My newest foster that’s on a diet is getting only canned food or raw food. He’s lost 5 lbs in 1 month.

[Hound Dog Mom]

clm86 –

Considering your dog’s issues I think Abady granular would be worth looking into. It would be a great food for putting weight on a dog – it’s high fat with around 800 calories per cup (about twice as many calories per cup as kibble). I’ve also heard dogs with sensitive stomachs do well on it.

Wet food is definitely a good addition to dry food, but it wouldn’t help much as far as adding calories. Due to its high moisture content wet food is generally much less calorie-dense than dry food.

I had issues getting my female bloodhound (now two years old) to gain weight and it wasn’t until I switched her to a high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate homemade raw diet that I got her to gain anything (she’s still skinny but looks a lot better than before she was on raw). She eats 2 lbs. of meat per day with extras – such as eggs, cottage cheese and kefir – plus supplements and veggies and I was able to get her to put on 5 (much needed!) pounds after three months on raw and now she’s maintaining nicely. I aim for her meals to be 40-50% protein and 30-40% fat. So if you’ve got the time and money a high fat homemade diet would probably be the best option. The other benefit of homemade is you can tailor it to the needs of your sensitive dog since you control all the ingredients that go into it.

[BryanV21]

Normally my response to questions regarding weight loss mention lowering carbohydrates, and feeding a food with more meat/animal-based proteins, based on the fact that a dog’s system is designed for digesting animal-based proteins moreso than carbs.

However, you’re feeding a food that I’d normally think was good. So perhaps we need to take another step and look at the calorie content of the food, along with possibly adding a supplement. What you can do is try the Pacifica from Acana, which is the sister brand of Orijen, as both are made by Champion Pet Foods out of Canada. The Pacifica is 421 kcal/cup, where as 6 Fish is 480 kcal/cup.

You can also try adding pumpkin or green beans, and cut back on the food a bit. The pumpkin and green beans should add minimal calories, without any added, but will “bulk up” the feeding. Now, you don’t want to cut back on too much food, as you still want to give your pup enough of the vitamins and minerals that a full diet provides.

[pugmomsandy]

I would just focus on the lower carb part and stick with above-average protein and average/above average fat. Low fat is not absolutely necessary for weight loss. What size are the jerky treats? Maybe you can cut down on those too or you need to reduce the food by the amount of jerky she gets. You can also just reduce the amount your serving of Orijen and you can feed Orijen to the puppy. My 23-24 lb pugs get 2/3 cup of kibble a day. Maybe she’s just eating too much. And at 7 yrs, that’s not old!!

[rainisdog]

Hey!
I have a 7yr old chihuahua daschund mix who is about 15 pounds. I am currently feeding her Orijen Fish 1/3 cup twice a day with about 5 chicken jerky treats a week. I can tell the extra weight on her is slowing her down and she looks uncomfortable. For awhile she was doing great going on walks but lately she doesn’t want to go far. While I am going to continue walking with her, I want to give her the best food or combinations of foods possible to help her loose weight. I don’t think raw is an option but I have been looking into dehydrated/ dried foods, I am just unsure of what to look for. I think high fiber and protein with low fat and carbs? If that is correct (and using this website as a guide) what % are high/low? Should I focus more on high protein or fiber or low fat? I would really appreciate any help or suggestions!

[Hound Dog Mom]

debbylcc –

Why do you want your dog to eat dry food? If your dog prefers the wet there’s nothing wrong with feeding only wet – a quality wet food is actually much healthier than dry food and wet food is better for weight loss. Wet food is generally higher in protein, lower in carbohydrates and higher in moisture than dry food making it more species-appropriate. Due to its high moisture content wet food is also, typically, much less calorically-dense than dry food making it a great option for dogs like yours that need to loose weight. To put it into perspective I’ll use Iams as my example (Pro Plan doesn’t list calorie information on their website and Iams is a comparable food to use for comparison): 1 C. Iams Proactive Health Adult Chunks with Chicken (canned) has 212 calories and is 44% protein whereas 1 C. Proactive Health Adult Chunks (dry) has 367 kcal. and is only 25% protein. Check out Dr. Mike’s article “Canned or Dry Dog Food – What’s the Better Choice”

[Hound Dog Mom]

debbylcc –

Why do you want your dog to eat dry food? If your dog prefers the wet there’s nothing wrong with feeding only wet – a quality wet food is actually much healthier than dry food and wet food is better for weight loss. Wet food is generally higher in protein, lower in carbohydrates and higher in moisture than dry food making it more species-appropriate. Due to its high moisture content wet food is also, typically, much less calorically-dense than dry food making it a great option for dogs like yours that need to loose weight. To put it into perspective I’ll use Iams as my example (Pro Plan doesn’t list calorie information on their website and Iams is a comparable food to use for comparison): 1 C. Iams Proactive Health Adult Chunks with Chicken (canned) has 212 calories and is 44% protein whereas 1 C. Proactive Health Adult Chunks (dry) has 367 kcal. and is only 25% protein. Check out Dr. Mike’s article “Canned or Dry Dog Food – What’s the Better Choice” /choosing-dog-food/canned-or-dry-dog-food/

[BryanV21]

It could be that your dogs are still hungry. I’ve heard about many dogs from places like puppy mills eating their poop because they aren’t getting enough food. Talk about a sad story, right?

Victor is not a bad food, however it is fairly low in protein, and kind of high in carbohydrates. It’s guaranteed analysis is 24% protein, and using Dr. Sagman’s calculations it’s around 47% carbs. I recommend foods a bit higher in protein, meaning at least 30%, with a carb content of no more than 40%. That’s because a dog’s system is designed to process animal-based foods (meat, organs, etc), and has a harder time with carbohydrates (fruits, vegetables, grains). Not saying they can’t have carbs, just that they have a harder time getting enough out of them compared to meat, organs, etc.

With a bit better food you may find that your dogs are getting more out of it, and therefore don’t feel the need to eat “other” things to compensate. And your dog’s stools should improve with a better food as well. Again… not saying Victor stinks, but there are better alternatives.

Speaking of alternatives, you mentioned other foods that are within the same price range. Well I did a quick Google shopping search, and found a 5lb bag of grain-free Victor going for $15. There’s a fairly new brand of dog food out there, which I’ve talked about quite a bit, that’s grain and potato-free, higher in protein and lower in carbs, and is priced right around there. It’s from Zignature. It may be hard to get at stores near you, but I’m sure ordering through the internet isn’t hard. And the company may be willing to send you free samples to try before buying.

[Hound Dog Mom]

debbylcc –

Why don’t you want her to eat only wet food? As long as you’re feeding a quality canned food, canned is actually healthier than dry – especially for weight loss. Canned food is generally higher in protein than dry food, lower in carbs than dry food and it contains much more moisture. Because canned food is so high in moisture (generally 75% – 85%) is it usually much less calorically-dense than dry food so your dog can eat a larger volume of canned food for the same amount of calories as a dry food. Most dry foods have around 400 kcal. per cup while most canned foods have about the same amount of calories for a 13.2 oz. can (that’s a little over 1 1/2 C. food). Check out Dr. Mike’s article “Canned or Dry Dog Food – What’s the Better Choice?” /choosing-dog-food/canned-or-dry-dog-food/