[Tigerlily]

I am wondering why Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear and Acana Chicken and Burbank potato were not included on the list of grain inclusive foods that are appropriate for large breed puppies?

[theBCnut]

If they are good, they are open to learning, so find the links and print up some info for them. Then politely tell them that this is why you have a problem with following their advice and see what they say.

BTW, something I read just the other day about mast cell tumors was that once removed they only have a 50% chance of coming back. If that’s right, it’s much better odds than they used to give you. They used to say, it’s just a matter of time.

My puppies never minded getting a bigger breakfast and then waiting for dinner, but I don’t start 2 meals a day by skipping lunch and then increasing dinner, I always start at breakfast.

[londoncalling1996]

Thanks Patty, Marie and Hound Dog Mom! We are hanging in there. My BFF was diagnosed about 1-3/4 years ago and it’s been a struggle, hoped for a long time that she’d beat it, but it’s not happening. She is doing fairly well in her spirit. Saying goodbye to people. Working on getting her cancer experience blog published and just coming to terms with letting go of everything, including life. Now, if only I can come to terms with her dying!

Anyhow, since this is a dog food forum, I’ll try to get back to that, but first about Lux, I have done some research on MAST cell tumors and it’s not all bad. If all goes well, checking her whole body as often as daily as we can for the rest her life might be the worst.

We will know around mid-week or so what “grade” the tumor is and if they got it all.

As far as the food situation goes, when the Vet (a she, btw) told me not to worry about too calcium, but to worry about giving Lux too much protein, I have to admit, I did think I trust HDM and the advise and things I’ve learned and I’ve gotten here more than her! Yikes. It is scary to think about what Vets are telling people. I told her we’re feeding Lux 3 cups of food a day, 1 cup X 3 a day. She said to stay with 3 cups (Lux weighs 33.4 pounds), but change to to twice a day instead of 3 times a day. I know I was going to have to do that eventually, but man, the way Lux acts like she’s absolutely STARVING every time we feed her, I’ve been reluctant to reduce the times per day!

Anyhow, then I told the vet that I give Lux a mixture of wet and kibble, 25% canned, rotating between Wellness stews and Kobe, and 75% Fromm’s kibble (Surf and Turf and Beef Frittata). She said to cut the canned food out, that it has too much fat. She said I need to limit protein and fat so Lux doesn’t have ortho problems later.

I don’t know how to address this with them, as I do believe this is one of the best vet clinics in the area. and I don’t know enough about it to make an argument with them so they look into and give better advise to their clients.

[theBCnut]

Jules,
I’m sorry to hear about your puppy and your friend. That is a huge amount to have to deal with. Make sure while you are taking care of everything else, you take time to take care of yourself.

I’m also sorry about your vet. I can’t help but wonder how many dogs have not had proper care because of his bad advice.

[InkedMarie]

Jules,
I’m so sorry about your friend & dog.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Oh no, this is horrible news! I’m so sorry. I hope everything turns out okay! Let us know! 🙁

Oh and your vet is very wrong about telling you to watch protein levels and not calcium, it’s really unfortunate that a vet would think this and be passing such incorrect information on to clients. There’s no evidence suggesting protein plays any role in developmental orthopedic disease – any article written by a veterinary nutritionist will verify this.

[londoncalling1996]

Hi everyone, looking for some support from dog lovers and I’m pretty sure this is a good place. Took LUX is for her last set of shots today. It’s her 17 week birthday. Vet and I talked about feeding her, she’s 33.4 pounds and Vet said I need to watch protein, not calcium. I am confused about that, but not why I’m writing.

ANYWAY, Vet does routine check and she felt a lump on Lux’s leg. Turns out to be Mast Cell Tumor. CANCER. Our baby Lux is having surgery this afternoon at Adobe Animal Hospital in Los Altos, CA. I am freaking out. Spent yesterday with my BFF, who has cancer, on her 50th (and last birthday) and now this today. Oh the things life dishes out.

Thanks for listening.

Jules

[Hound Dog Mom]

Probably, I’ll try to remember to ask him. He’d have to make the topic a sticky then close it for commenting I’d assume because this topic is sticky it’s just that the list keeps getting buried in all the comments.

[InkedMarie]

HDM, can dr mike make the list a stickie?

[theBCnut]

Thanks sharfie, I did not want to have to search for that!!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Thanks sharfie! I’m going to have to bookmark that because I have no idea how I got that link and can’t figure out how to do it again. lol.

[sharfie]

If the link does not work go to page 15 and look for a 7/23/13 post from HDM. The link is there.

[sharfie]

Kobe-
Here is the link for the list: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi kobe’s dad –

I would like to repost the list because it keeps getting buried unfortunately I don’t know how I posted it and I can’t figure out how to do it again lol. If someone knows how to link to a pdf let me know and I’ll repost it.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I wouldn’t feed Petcurean to a large breed puppy. All of their foods are too high in calcium.

[kobe]

HI patty vaughn,

you wrote near page 15 to find HDMS list but 2 of us cant find it—could you give me a specific page number—i really would like to see this list

thanks,
Kobe’s dad

[jamie_aa]

HDM…

Ok i think now i am switching my food choice again… Please Help me! I was going to do a mix between petcurean and Fromm thinking it would be the best for my puppy, but again the more I read the more I am learning. You have so many to choose from on your list so I wanted to see what your top five choices might be? I will be adding 20% percent of my homemade raw diet to it a day. Again I will have a Saint Bernard 8 weeks old puppy and i just want her to have a great start on life. I just dont want to be spending a lot on a bag of dog food “Petcurean”, if there is an even better one out there that i could be giving her for the same price of even cheaper. I am willing to order the food online if i have to….

[theBCnut]

I think the list is somewhere near page 15 and it is definitely in one of HoundDogMom’s posts.

[Mom2Cavs]

Zignature is a fairly new food on the market, but I feel it’s a fine food. I’m actually using the Trout in my rotation. I can’t speak about using it for a large breed puppy, which needs a certain calcium/phosphorus percentage, because I have small adult breeds. However, I believe it might be fine in that regard. I’m sure someone will let you know regarding that.

Also, please read the Large and Giant Breed Nutrition thread on this forum. You will find foods on there that are appropriate for a large breed puppy. I’m not sure is Zignature is on there. Like I said, it’s fairly new so even if it’s ok it might not be there. Maybe Hound Dog Mom will post soon. 🙂

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by Mom2Cavs.

[kobe]

thanks,

any opinion on NOW brand large breed puppy kibble

Kobe’s dad

[londoncalling1996]

Hi Kobe’d dad,

I have a 17 week old Berner that tolerates Fromm just fine. I’m started with a big bag of Surf and Turf and now we’re into a bag of Beef Frittata Veg. I mix in canned food, switching around between different Wellness stews and Kobe varieties. I mix 25% canned, 75% kibble.

I wonder how much you feed Kobe? Last vet visit Lux was 29 pounds. I know she’s more that that now! I’ve been giving her 3 cups of the mixed food, (1 cup 3 times) a day. Plus a little of the mix in a kong I freeze and give to her when I put her in her crate for the night, plus she gets little tidbits of training treats during the day. But, you’d think we’re STARVING her. Yesterday found a shredded bit left of a pair of my underwear. My 16 yr old daughter said there was some fabric hanging out of Lux’s butt yesterday that she was biting at, so my daughter helped her and pulled it out. So gross. Seems like we have our old Berner, Bailey back. He’s been gone for 7 years now and man did I go thru underwear back then! Crazy. I guess it’s in the breed. Some form of Prader Willi or something!

[InkedMarie]

Kobe’s dad: somewhere on this very thread is a list of foods appropriate for large breed puppies.

[kobe]

TO INKED MARIE ,HDM AND ANYONE ELSE WITH MORE EXPERIENCE THAN ME

unfortunately,reading the comments section on HALO, SOLID GOLD AND FROMM –is quite disappointing with a number of complaints about lack of tolerability on each product

IS THERE A BRAND OUT THERE FOR LARGE BREED PUPPIES THAT IS GENERALLY WELL TOLERATED EVEN IF I USE ADULT FORMULAS?

thanks for any and all assistance,

Kobe’s dad

[kobe]

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR HELPING BUT I AM PUZZLED BY

1-the comments on Halo on this website were generally NOT flattering-therefore i am hesitant to try
2-Solid Gold makes a large breed puppy formula–what is the consensus opinion on this product?
3-FROMM appears ingredient wise to be fine BUT i have no clue if it is well tolerated by dogs in general-please advise-IF fROMM IS RECOMMENDED-which formula or formulas should i try
4–ANY OTHER BRANDS THAT ARE WELL TOLERATED FROM A GASTROINTESTINAL STANDPT.–PLEASE LET ME KNOW FOR A LARGE BREED PUPPY

i appreciate all input

Kobe’s dad

[theBCnut]

Some info first. Is your Dobie expected to be a large or medium sized dog. Dobies as a breed are right on the border and large breed dogs have growth issues that have to be taken into consideration. Personally I would feed as if you are planning on her being large, better safe than sorry. In which case you should read the Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition thread so you are aware of what the issues are. There are 2 google docs on that thread that are lists of foods that are appropriate for large breed nutrition. The second one is more up to date and complete. I think it’s somewhere around page 15.

[gsdmommy89]

To Kobe’s dad:
The Halo recipes that HDM recommend are already on her .docs list of appropriate kibble. And she’s recommending only the Zignature Trout abd Salmon because it’s the only one with the appropriate levels of calcium for a large breed puppy

[kobe]

to inked marie and HDM,
IN TERMS OF HALO-what type would be appropriate?
IN TERMS OF ZIGNATURE-what about the other formulas available besides salmon and trout?

LASTLY,IF EITHER OF YOU HAVE A PREFERRED BRAND FOR BOTH QUALITY AND FOR BEING EASY TO TOLERATE PLEASE LET ME KNOW–IF THE BRAND RECOMMENDED IS NOT ONE OF THE ONES I LISTED–PLEASE ADVISE

thanks so much,
Kobe’s dad

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Kobe’s Dad –

In terms of the appropriateness for a growing large breed puppy, I would go with Halo, Zignature (Trout and Salmon) or the Earthborn (Coastal Catch or Meadow Feast). None of the others are appropriate for large breed growth.

[InkedMarie]

I’m not HDM but I have tried Prairie with two different dogs and both had pudding poop. Not diarrhea but still. Why are those foods your only choice? If you absolutely must choose between those foods, I would go with Earthborn and Zignature.

[kobe]

HI HOUND DOG MOM,

in summary i need your advice 2 months of trying Natures Variety Prairie large breed puppy kibble led to recurrent diarrhea that i for sometime thought was giardia recurrence

i value your opinion interms of a quality kibble for my 5 month old bernese puppy AND hopefully will be easy on his stomach
MY CHOICES TO TRY ARE
solid gold large breed puppy kibble
wellness large breed puppy kibble
a rotation of the zignature kibbles
earthborn meadow or coastal kibble
spots stew kibble
avoderm kibble
natural balance limited ingrediwents-all life stages

as i stated before,i have no clue–let me know your order of preference or if you have another formula in mind
i really appreciate your help as i do not have the experience you or others have

Kobe’s dad

[EHubbman]

Thank you for the info!

My little dude is on RX food right now, trying to figure out a kibble he can switch to after some major tummy issues. Going to get him stable on that and then go into partial raw/full raw. We’ll see. Thanks again!

[theBCnut]

Emily

I started feeding raw as a topper to my puppy that was having some pretty severe problems. I couldn’t fast him and with his issues, I was afraid to do any kind of sudden switch. His stomach issues cleared up almost immediately, so mixing both was definitely not a problem for him. For a while, I switched to kibble in the AM and raw in the PM, but I found he did better when I mixed both. I do know someone whose dog can’t handle having them mixed, but that is only one dog. Everyone else I know of hasn’t had any trouble mixing.

[theBCnut]

There is a variety of reasons for rotational feeding. As Marie mentioned, in case of recall or any other reason your usual food is not available, you can just switch to whatever was next on your list. As Emily mentioned, it helps keep the gut used to getting different things. One of the things going on here that you may not be aware of is that a particular set of nutrients feeds a particular population of probiotics. By varying nutrition, you maximize the number of different strains of probiotics that can live in the gut. This provides a huge boost to the immune system, since a huge part of the immune system is the gut. Also, all dog food brands have certain things that they are high in and certain things they are low in. By switching brands, you make sure your dog isn’t always exposed to those same levels of the same nutrients.

[InkedMarie]

Mrs Nix, I forgot to say that dr Karen Becker, on Mercola Healthy Pets, has an article on what types of foods are best; dry is least favorable. Glad EHubbman chimed in about gut health.

E: I honestly have no rhyme or reason. I don’t feed raw daily but when I do, I feed it for breakfast and dinner is about ten hours later. We haven’t had any problems doing so.

[MrsNix]

Thanks, Marie (and Hubbman…I didn’t see your post while I was typing this one).

I had not considered that. I only knew that switching foods could (and usually did) cause upset stomach. It never occurred to me that switching would make the digestive system stronger. We’re going to start Cadence (that’s what we’ve named the new coonhound puppy) on Nature’s Variety Large Breed Puppy kibble. I like to use canned pumpkin as a food topper and canned green beans/fresh bell pepper/fresh carrots cut into small pieces as training treats.

I will make sure we have another couple of food brands we approve of to start mixing in/rotating in as the bag gets down to 1/2 or so. I really had not ever even considered switching foods regularly. It makes sense, though. I was reading articles from Google after I posted the above, and from your post, it seems like a very practical idea, as well.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by MrsNix.

[EHubbman]

Also not Patty, but along with what Marie was saying, it also works well to keep your dog’s gut active and able to adjust to changes more, is something I’ve found in the past.
No food is ever complete, so rotating also helps to balance a diet, and keep it interesting for your pups. (I wouldn’t like eating the same thing every day for my entire life, I know that!)

Marie/anyone- You say you rotate with pre-made raw and grinds; do you keep a certain amount of time between kibble/raw? I’ve been reading a few things that you need to wait XX hours between kibble/raw because kibble slows the gut down, which can let bad bacteria from the raw cultivate in the gut. Then others say that it doesn’t matter so much. Your thoughts?

• This reply was modified 12 years, 9 months ago by EHubbman.

[InkedMarie]

Mrs Nix: I’m not Patty but I’m going to answer anyway. I like to rotate for a few reasons. What if your current food had a recall, wasn’t made anymore, you couldn’t get it or forgot to buy the next bag? If you had a few different brands that your dog can eat, you won’t be “caught”. I order almost all food online and if something I feed is on sale, I can take advantage of the sale.

I also use various types of foods: kibble, canned, dehydrated, pre made raw & grinds.

[kobe]

Hi HOUND DOG MOM,

thanks for your assistance-BUT have had Kobe for 11 weeks and have finally concluded that his episodes of diarrhea most likely were from the attempt to transition from Hills I AND D TO PRAIRIE LARGE BREED PUPPY FORMULA–the confusion and delay making this conclusion was that he did have recurrent giardia initially!!

i need your advice:
i have been giving him boiled chicken twice a daymixed in with 1/2 cup of kibble-and rice—-the third meal is just 1 cup of kibble with rice-no chicken–also probiotic twice a day

my choices to try to transition him to are EARTHBORN MEADOW FEAST OR COASTAL KIBBLE VS ZIGNATURE KIBBLE VS SOLID GOLD LARGE PUPPY FOOD VS NATURAL BALANCE LIMITED INGREDIENT KIBBLE
to be honest, i have NO CLUE IF what to choose next to try—-
i appreciate any advice on what you would try for my 5 month old bernese pup-if you have a different brand-please dont hold back your preference

i really need to get him on something both nutritious,safe and tolerable

thanks again,
Kobe”s dad

[MrsNix]

PattyV – You mentioned rotational feeding. When we were trying the Nature’s Variety Prairie foods with our beagle, we rotated the different flavors, but I’m assuming you mean something different. Would you explain for me how you rotate food properly or give me a link you like that explains?

I’ve never heard of doing this, and I’m interested to learn about it.

[InkedMarie]

HDM, excellent post about grains in food….it should be a stickie. I just had a bit of an argument with someone who thinks any grainfree trumps any grain inclusive.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi apriliamille –

Dr. Tim’s grain-inclusive Kinesis is on the new grain-inclusive list. The grain-free Kinesis was removed from the grain-free list because I mistakenly used the calcium levels for the grain-inclusive Kinesis to calculate the calcium levels.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi kobe –

For a dog without sensitivities to grains, I think that whether or not a kibble contains grains is not important. The ideal diet of a dog would be grain-free and free of starches, however this isn’t feasible with a kibble. Kibble is a bakery product and therefore must contain grain or some other starch (legumes, tapioca, potato, etc.) as a binder. The idea of “grain-free” food and, more recently, “white potato free” food has become a fad – many people are under the [false] impression that because a food is grain-free or white potato free that it’s “species”appropriate” and superior to foods with grains. The reality is, tapioca, legumes or potatoes are no more “species-appropriate” than grains. In fact, I’m seeing may “grain-free” foods hitting the market that are predominately potatoes or peas. The most important thing to look for the the level of animal-derived protein. I recommend looking for foods with at least 30% protein with over 80% of this protein coming from animal-sources. Many of the best kibbles on the market do tend to be grain-free, however their are also may poor quality grain-free kibbles available and many very high quality grain-inclusive kibbles available. Hope this helps.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi jamie aa –

I tend to prefer more calorically-dense foods as I’ve always had difficulty keeping weight on my dogs, especially as pups. Calorie content really doesn’t matter as long as you adjust the portion sizes accordingly – don’t let your dog get too thin on a low calorie food or too heavy on a high calorie food. I agree with Patty that 409 kcal. per cup sis pretty standard for a high quality food, 328 sounds low to me (especially for a puppy or als food).

[theBCnut]

400 to 450 is pretty average for a high quality kibble. There are a few kibbles that are higher calorie, but that tends to be because they are pretty high in fat.

[jamie_aa]

Thanks! So would you rather see her eat an even higher calorie food then the 409 kcal/cup? Its just so hard when you have so many foods to choose from and they all have different calorie amounts.

[theBCnut]

Personally, I would rather feed less of a higher calorie food, just in case meal size really does have something to do with bloat. Just make sure you are feeding to keep her thin while she is still growing.

[jamie_aa]

Hi there.

would you recommend a lower calorie diet for my Saint Bernard? I will be getting her in 4 weeks and she will be 8 weeks old. I am looking between two dog foods, and one has 328 kcal/cup and the other has 409 kcal/cup. I have done the calculation on calcium and they both are 2.8 per 1,000 kcal which i like, but now its just deciding on if she needs those extra calories or not??

[kobe]

thank you so much Mrs.Nix

to HDM AND MRS.NIX,

MY BERNESE PUP HAS HAD GIARDIA TWICE- I BELEVE IT IS GONE BUT I HAVE ONE QUESTION–MY DOG TYPICALLY HAS STOOLS THAT ARE MOSTLY SOLID BUT THE END OF WHICH IS QUITE SOFT AND NOT AS FORMED-IS THIS A POTENTIAL CONCERN?

LASTLY-TO HOUND DOG MOM–THE ISSUE OF GRAIN CONTAINING FOODS VS NO GRAIN–WHAT DO YOU THINK OBJECTIVELY? DO DOGS THRIVE BETTER ON ONE OR THE OTHER?IF THERE ARE NO CORN ALLERGIES-IS THERE A REASON TO USE GRAIN-FREE?

THANKS AGAIN

KOBES’S DAD

[MrsNix]

Oh! I just want to add that I don’t think Pinnacle would necessarily be a good choice for large breed pups. I haven’t looked at the calcium content. I only mentioned that food in reference to our 22-pound adult beagle. Please don’t think I was recommending that brand for big dogs. It might be great, but it might not be. I would have to research it.

[MrsNix]

Hi, Kobe! Somewhere in this long discussion, and I’m sure Hound Dog Mom can tell you more about how she feels about grain inclusive foods, but she mentions that she only included grain-free because that is her preference. She doesn’t believe that a grain inclusive food is a bad choice for everyone, but she prefers to feed her bloodhounds grain free. I’m sure she can expand on that for you.

Our beagle, who is no longer with us, had a severe corn allergy and sensitivity to both rice and wheat. Our first instinct was to just chuck it all and go with a combination of foods I prepared myself and grain free kibble (which was very hard to find in 2007 in Okinawa where we lived). She was not thriving on a totally grain-free diet, and we tried a lot of different things over about a year. She had runny stools; she was not very energetic; and her coat was not as glossy and she shed more than she ever had before. Grain free diets bring out the best in some dogs. They thrive on it and it does amazing things for them. Our little dog did not thrive on a totally grain free diet, so we looked for something else.

I eventually came upon Pinnacle brand foods, which are also 5-star dog foods, but they include quinoa and oats. She did extremely well on the Pinnacle. Within a couple of weeks, her coat looked better and her stools firmed up to normal. She was back to being “on the beagle crack” as we always said when she was her hyper-and-needs-exercise normal self.

I don’t believe that Hound Dog Mom or anyone else with the best interests of all dogs would say that the same diet is best for ALL individuals, but grain-free is helping a lot of dogs who cannot seem to thrive on foods containing grain.