Hi everyone. So a few days ago I asked some questions about NutriSource and Earthborn Holistic for my 4 mo. old GSD. I ended up choosing the Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch. I couldn’t decide between the Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch (I figured fish is easier to digest than lamb). So far, stools have become firmer and they don’t stink like before. I’m waiting on Dr. Langer’s 15 strain probiotic to arrive, so I can start him on that too. I wonder why the other foods didn’t settle well with him. They were all poultry based. I tried the Fromm LBP (I think it was too rich, his stools were always loose), Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey (he would barely nibble on it, and stools smelled even worse), then Nature’s Variety Prairie LBP (her would eat it, but only cause he had too), then Nutrisource LBP (he would not touch that either). Never would have imagined the grain free fish would do the trick.
Anyway, just thought I’d share that he’s doing better and wanted to thank everyone for their advice.
You’re right, no phone number. That alone would have me crossing it off my list but that’s just me.
I have benefitted from so much information in this thread. Thanks to all the contributors. I am trying to track down info for OCRaw dog food. I’ve emailed twice to get the calcium info but have had no response. And I don’t see a phone number on the website. It would cost significantly less to feed but unless I can verify calcium levels I won’t use it. Does anyone have info about OCRaw dog food or another way contact?
Thanks!
Here you go.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
As far as printing, I had no issues, but others have, I believe that doing a screen capture is what they said worked.
A coworker is getting a large breed puppy in Dec/Jan (yellow lab); my own lab is now 15 months and off puppy food, but I found HDM’s list invaluable. Since this thread is now 50 pages (!), can anyone direct me conveniently to the list so I can give it to my friend? Is there a printable version? Thank you!
FYI – Life’s Abundance responded with their actual calcium content for their Large Breed Puppy formula – 1.16%. Since the breeder uses it, it’s 4 stars and has the appropriate calcium content, I will at least use it until I can transition her to another recommended food. Thanks to all for the help.
Always ignore dogspotindia posts. It is a spambot and always offers ridiculous advice. I suppose that if you have a dog that doesn’t have “breed specific” food, you should let it starve. Good nutrition is good nutrition and bad nutrition is bad, no matter what breed name they put on the label.
The gas is from not being able to properly digest the new foods. This can happen with all foods – old and new. You can help their digestive tract by adding probiotics to their meals and digestive enzymes until they have healthier guts. I don’t like to feed just one food as this sets them up to have unhealthy guts since they are only exposed to certain ingredients and therefore only know how to digest those certain ingredients. Rotate through several foods to offer variety (4 and 4.5 and 5 star foods). And you can feed them an “all life stage” food. I personally prefer Whole Earth Farms Puppy (for all life stages) to feed the seniors as they require more quality protein. It only has 28% which is not high by any means. There is also Merrick Classic which is good for all life stages (even the senior recipe). For Premium Edge (made by Diamond so be aware) I would not chose the Senior or Lamb recipes. It’s (the Premium Edge review is coming up for an update and the Lamb formula will not be 4 stars). For Healthwise, mark off the Weight Control formula. For Diamond Naturals, I personally would mark off the Adult Lamb Meal and Rice and Senior 60+, Large Breed Adult Lamb Meal, and Lite Lamb Meal formulas. Diamond Naturals grain free and Nature’s Domain (at Costco) is OK at 3.5 stars. They’re more like 3.75! Just like any company can have a recall (like Diamond has had several), don’t become dependent on one food or brand in case you have to change and dog food companies can change and do change their recipes from time to time. Even my 14 yr old foster (and my other nine pugs) eats a variety of different kibbles, canned foods, dehydrated foods, and raw foods without being gassy. I fed them probiotics and enzymes at one time fairly regularly but now they don’t need them every day as they have healthy insides now. Sometimes I just pour a little multi-strain kefir (Lifeway) on their food for the probiotics and they get a powdered probiotic supplement a couple times a week.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
pugmomsandy.
I think you should go with the breed specific food because different breed have different nutritional requirement.
2pups,
So glad Dozer is doing so much better! How old is he now? I met my first ridgeback a couple months. It was a bit intimidating to meet a dog about the size of a deer, but what a gentle giant he was. Curious what food the breeder had him on or what you were feeding your pup when he first started to have issues walking?
Congrats on having a dog on the mend!
Lily
Hi guys,
maybe slightly off topic but just wanted to say thanks to all of you posting helpful info on large breed pups. I got a ridgeback pup 5 weeks ago and within a couple of days what seemed like nothing turned into one of his legs beginning to bow and knuckle over. 2 days after that it was breaking my heart to watch him walk. The vet suggested royal canin as a premium dog food, thanks to this site I found out that its only the price that makes this product premium. For 2 days my pup ate this and showed no improvement. After researching the cause of my puppy Dozer’s problem switched him to Holisitic Select for large breed puppies. Within a couple of days there was already improvement showing and within 1 week he was a different happier puppy. His leg is now 100% and his coat feels like silk instead of bristles. So thanks again.
Yep, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain Salmon is on the first list, back on page 1.
Mercman and Patty- I remember a conversation way back in the thread where someone mentioned to HDM that Kirkland’s had changed ratings and had been downgraded from 4 stars. I think it used to be on the original list but was taken off when HDM revised it because it was no longer a 4 star food.
Mercman- if you really want to use Kirkland’s, reach out to the manufacturer to see if you can get the actual percentage of calcium in the food rather than the minimum and we can see if it’s appropriate for large breed growth.
kms
I’m imagining that as long as this has been going on that you are going to have to have all the elements together for a bit before you start seeing positive changes. It takes a couple weeks or more to heal the gut.
Mercman
Was it this list?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
It doesn’t have Kirkland on it, unless I can’t see what’s in front of me, which isn’t that uncommon after all.
Growth spurts don’t come from protein level. There is an old myth going around that won’t die, because ignorant breeders perpetuate it, that high protein causes too fast growth in large breed dogs. This has been disproven. Period. The real culprits are overfeeding and too much calcium. This has been proven. Period. I’m relatively positive that one of the links that Hound Dog Mom provided on the first page of this thread was to the study summary where these facts were proven. However, you can google it for yourself, just google “calcium levels for large breed puppies” and you will get a few different studies about it. If you want to go at it from the other direction, google “protein levels for large breed puppies.” Try looking for actual science rather than some breeders opinion though, there are definitely articles supporting every opinion under the sun. If in your research, you find that Hound Dog Mom is right, then by all means share what you have learned with your breeder. She needs more current info.
This thread is just full of excellent information and I’ve printed HDM’s list on food. However I’m still confused. lol
I have a Giant Schnauzer puppy that I’ll pick up right before Christmas. Breeder feeds Royal Canin puppy, but I’m not thrilled that it has corn in it. I’d like to feed my puppy a at least a corn-free food, but breeder recommends lower protein for these dogs. Grain free foods seem to have a pretty high protein level. She starts with RC Mini even for the big dogs (smaller kibble.)
Any recommendations for the Giant or experience with lower protein (less than 23%)? Based on what I’m reading about growth and calcium, I’m thinking she likes lower protein so they don’t get into any super growth spurt. Breeder says she has never had a problem with hip dysplasia in her dogs.
Thanks!
Thanks all! I’ll check again but last time I looked the Kirkland food in question was on HDM’s list, but maybe it was and early list…………….
Regards, Kurt
OK – We started the Mercola Digestive enzymes yesterday. For his body weight (32 lbs), it says to use 2 scoops per meal, but I only gave him 1 scoop per meal (paranoid) just to start slow. He pooped 3 times yesterday and it was half formed and half runny – so no change so far. Today I gave him a full dose at breakfast (2 scoops) and will give him a full dose at dinner. How long does it typically take to see some results with Digestive Enzymes?
As far as the Probiotic, I didn’t start that yet. Wanted to add things 1 at a time in case something goes wrong. Thought I’d start adding the Probiotic in a day or so – and will add it to each meal for several days. Then, I can back to Probiotic 2-3 times/week and continue the Digestive Enzymes with each meal.
After he has been on the Probiotic for a couple days and no issues, then I can start transitioning him to NVI Rabbit Meal. Am I moving too slow on this or is this ok?
Yes, HDM’s list is 4 star foods and better. I’m not sure if Diamond or Costco would give actual calcium levels or not, and it is vital to get actual levels rather than the minimum listed on the bag.
Hi Mercman,
I do not see the Kirkland Dog food you mentioned on HDM ‘s Large Breed Dog Food List. I looked up Kirkland’s Signature Sweet Potato dry dog food on DFA list in general and found, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato dry dog food, but it only had 3.5 stars and I think the foods on HDM’s list must be 4 stars or higher. Not sure if that is the one you were referencing or not.
I am currently looking through the list for rotation foods and didn’t remember seeing a Kirkland brand on the list. I am new to all of this so I may be In error. I know how easy it is to mix up information read here just because the site is so full of wonderful information, it is hard for me to keep things straight sometimes. I just suggest you double check that the Kirkland food meets the calcium levels needed for large breeds. I tried to find it on the Costco site but it isn’t listed.
I hope this helps.
Any food on Hound Dog Mom’s list is good for large breed puppies barring other problems.
To know if the food she is on is OK, you need the actually calcium level, not the minimum on the bag, and the kcals/kg.
I have a 12 week old GSD female puppy. I was feeding her Nutro Natural Choice Large puppy breed chicken/whole brown rice/oatmeal food. She was doing a lot of scratching I was concerned about possible food allergies and went to my local feed store. They recommended Infinia Zenfood Grainfree Salmon and Sweet potato even though it is not specifically a large breed puppy kibble. This recommendation was based on a 1.2% calcium level and on being a Grainfree kibble. Is this the right choice. Incidentally the itching may have been due to over-bathing.
My male GSD (5YOA) is eating Costco’s Kirkland Salmon and sweet potato, BTW. I did see this listed in HoundDog Mom’s acceptable large breed puppy food list. Would this be an appropriate choice for my puppy too?
Lily, I hope this helps.
1.06%X 1000g=10.6g calcium/kg
10.6g calcium/kg divided by 3945kcal/kg=0.00268695g calcium/kcal
multiply the numerator by 1000=2.68695g calcium
multiply the denominator by 1000= 1000 kcal
put the numerator and denominator back together and you have
2.69g of calcium per 1000kcal
Part of your math problem’s problem was forgetting that 1.06% means 1.06/100
Hi kms
The enzymes will help him to get every bit of nutrition out of his food so you may notice a difference from that alone. Also the Orijen has a lot of beans, peas, lentils, which digest differently for some dogs, so even though the NVI has 1% more fiber, you may find that the stool is harder and smaller anyway. You won’t know until you try.
Pattyvaughn
I am trying to follow your calculations for calcium/kcal but am confused about step 3 of the formula you provided.
1)Multiply calcium% by 1000g. That gives you the grams of calcium/kg
2)Divide the grams of calcium/kg by the kcal/kg for the food. That gives you the grams of calcium/kcal.
3)Multiply the grams of calcium/kcal by 1000/1000. That gives you grams of calcium/1000kcal.
Isn’t 1000/1000=1?
Here is my example:
Have been emailing back and forth with Dr. Tim and he suggested that because my English Setter puppy, Annie, is an active breed that Pursuit might be a better fit than Kinesis. I asked if it was appropriate for a puppy since it is not labeled as an All Life Stages food and he said it was. I mentioned calcium and he again said it was fine for large breed.
But just to be sure, I ran the math myself. And if someone could just check make sure I was accurate.
Calcium percentage: 1.06
Multiplied by 1000,
1,060
1,060 divided by 3945 kcal/kg = .26869
.26869 x 1000/1000 = .26869
I am thinking the answer is supposed to be 2.68, but other than multiplying by 10, not sure how to get there?
Please help?
I just realized that the NVI rabbit has even higher fiber (7%) than the Orijen. If the high fiber is what is making him poop so much, then this could make it worse. The 1% increase isn’t that much – but maybe I should opt for one with a lot less fiber. I feel like everything he eats goes in one end and out the other with no absorption. Could that be why he’s gaining weight so slowly? and will the digestive enzymes help with that situation?
If I don’t go with the rabbit, other non-chicken choices would be: Earthborn Wholistic Coastal Catch, Annamaet Aqualuk or Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey Meal. They are 29-32% protein, and 3.5-4% fiber.
I’ll try the digestive enzymes and probiotic for a few days before I do anything else (just to introduce each change one at a time). Hopefully, that will get his stools more normal and then can take the next step. Everything should be arriving today (enzymes, probiotic, tripett) and I found small bags of NVI Rabbit and Earthborn Wholistic at my local pet store. Thanks for any advice and for following this saga….
I need y’alls help again. As you remember I’ve been on here lately asking about possible food intolerance and a recommended food. She had been on EB Coastal catch for 5 weeks and her stools were soft she was gassy. So on the zignature review I commented that a worker at the local pet food store advised me to try the turkey formula. I bought that formula got home did some research and realized it wasn’t on HDM’s list. I asked a few questions around this site did some more research and decided to try EB again but this time try the meadowfeast formula. I ordered the coastal catch for the transition and the meadowfeast from chewy on Tuesday (still waiting on the order). Now that my dogs have been on the zig for a few days they seem fine. No vomiting, diarrhea or other transitioning issues. That being said what should I do when I get the order? Mix the meadowfeast with the coastal catch or should I send the coastal catch back since they are transitioning with no problems.
Kms I would order a small bag of the rabbit and see how your dog handles it because my puppy did not react well to the rabbit at all. His stools were dry soft but he did do poo a lot less. If your dog has no intolerances to rabbit as the protein then I would highly recommend it!
Add 20% Tripett to the Orijen, it’s low calcium. I would transition slowly to start. You will find the more you transition the faster you can go, but don’t rush at the beginning. All the pooping is probably due to the fiber, the gas too. No idea why the breath smells like fish, but you aren’t the first person to say that either.
Your plan for your rotation sounds good so far.
Pattyvaughn –
Thank you so much! The rotation I’m thinking about is ….Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit, Earthborn Wholistic Catch, Wellness Core Puppy, and I’ll look for one more that is beef or turkey based to maintain the variety.
I do, however, have a big bag of Orijen Large Breed Puppy Left (more than I would need to get through the transition). Should I use the Orijen as treats and/or Kong stuffing? Or can I finish off the Orijen bag before I start the transition by feeding something like half Orijen and half balanced canned food that is low in calcium (to offset the Orijen)? I would have to kinda transition to that mixture though. He seems to have a sensitive stomach/GI tract. He has been pooping a lot since on Orijen (4-5 times per day – some firm, some runny) – might be due to the higher fiber content (6%) of Orijen? Also, he has gas and breath that smell like “fish” (weird, cause Orijen is mostly chicken – herring is 4th on the list). Do you know what this means? Thanks again for all the help.
Hi kms
First, you can only edit posts for about 5 minutes after you first post them. The word edit will be up by the post number.
Next, I was talking about cutting back the probiotics only. Since all of the enzymes that would have been in kibble are destroyed by the cooking process, I always add enzymes to kibble and cooked foods, raw doesn’t need it. Adding enzymes after the meal does certain things that are beneficial for the dog, but that just doesn’t work for many people, myself included. I give them with the meal.
In regards to the pumpkin, yes, 3 teaspoons per meal, which happens to be 1 tablespoon, and when his stools firm up start cutting back and see if you can cut out the pumpkin, until the next transition. Did I tell you to freeze your pumpkin in to ice cubes so you have the extras whenever you need them?
20% would be 3/5 of a cup, which is really close to 1/2 cup. You need to decrease the kibble based on calories not voulme though. And in fact you can figure your 20% based on calories too, if you like.
Finally, until his stool issue is sorted out, I would probably cook the meat you add, but once you get his issues sorted, then start giving him some raw. Even if it is only a raw meaty bone a few time a week, he will get some of the benefits of raw.
Can’t figure out how to edit that post… wanted to add that I also ordered 12 cans of Tripett (original green) through Amazon.
Duke the Boxer, RescueDaneMom and PattyVaughn –
Thanks for responding so quick. I started to try to learn about the various probiotics and enzymes on the supplements thread and just got totally overwhelmed at all the choices (think my brain is full). So I ordered Mercola Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, since that is what I’ve seen recommended the most here. But I’m going to try the Biostareq Terra Biota K9 and Dr. Langer’s also – sounds like supplements can be just as trial and error as the kibble.
PattyVaughn –
When I cut “back to a couple times a week” – do you mean cut back the probiotics AND the digestives enzymes or cut back probiotics only?
I saw on Mercola’s website where they recommend that you feed the Digestive Enzymes a couple hours after each meal, not at each meal. Is that what I should do or just give it with the meal?
As far as the pumpkin, I will up the dose. He’s 32 lbs now, so that’s 3 tsp pumpkin – is that 3 tsp per meal or per day?
As far as the 20%…. He eats 3 c kibble per day, so adding a 20% topper would mean a little under ¾ cup, right? And that means I should decrease his kibble by 20% to account for the topper, right? (I feel like I’m asking stupid questions, but I need to make sure).
Should the meat be raw or cooked? I use chopped cooked chicken for training treats, but he has never eaten anything raw – I’m worried it will upset his stomach.
Thanks so much to everyone – I finally feel like I’m getting somewhere!!!
Your welcome kanuckle and glad it worked.
There probably is an easier way, but when it comes to operating a computer, everything is hard for me, lol. I can build a computer, no problems, using/operating one is a whole different story.
Thanks losul. I did go the screenshots route using the snipping tool.
A bit of a pain, especially if the list gets edited / updated, but it did work. I thought there might be an easier way.
Thanks.
Just a hint, I cooked my own pumpkin by boiling it and then pureeing it. It does not work as well for diarrhea as canned or baked pumpkin. The only thing I can figure is that it already has all the liquid it can hold in it, so it can’t absorb more from the stomach and intestines.
Mfulton
Most definitely. The brand isn’t really important. I know a baker’s warehouse near my city that carries huge cans of plain pumpkin for about $8.50. So when I go there I stock up. If I don’t have any and I go to the grocery store, I usually buy what’s on sale. Also, I have left over uncarved pumpkins from Halloween. Those will not go to waste. Like InkedMarie said though, make sure it’s absolutely plain
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
gsdmommy89.
Mfulton: yep! Just make sure it’s the plain pumpkin, not the one with spices.
I’ve been reading all the posts and was curious about the brand of pumpkin you all are using? Excuse me if this sounds ignorant but is this something you buy at the grocery store in a can?
Exactly RDM that is one of the best lessons ive learned from having this puppy. You have to have to do your own trial and error with most everything. But having some good direction from others more knowledgeable is great 😀
Kms has been paying attention!
Definitely agree, Duke. Dogs are just as unique as people. All are individuals. I tried Liquid Health’s K9 Level 5000 joint supplement because people said it worked great for their dogs. It didn’t do a darn thing for mine. Just got to keep searching until you find what works.
Unfortunately rescue Dane mom I also tried the dr langers probiotic but it didn’t do anything for duke. Within a day or two of giving him the terra biota his stools firmed up more. Also he stopped having room clearing gas. But with dogs it’s just like humans some medicine and supplements work better than others.
Hi kms
Your plan sounds pretty good. Start by giving probiotics and digestive enzymes every meal, in fact, if you use a dog probiotic(Mercola’s is my favorite, but it is expensive) you can double the dose for the first few days. After you get the stools in order, you can cut back to a couple times a week. Up the pumpkin amount to 1 teaspoon for every 10 lbs. You only need to use it as needed. Some dogs need it with every transition, some never need it again except if they get into something that causes diarrhea.
Using commercial raw as a topper is fine, but if you are talking about keeping it to 20%, you can just add some human grade meat and here and there throw in a raw meaty bone like a rib or a turkey neck. You only need to worry about balance when you start to replace more of the meal than 20%.
I just googled the Terra Biota K9 product. It looks good- 13 strains of probiotics. Mercola pets digestive enzymes and probiotics are good too. I was using Dr. Stephen Langer’s 15 strain probiotic from Swanson’s. They’re buy one get one free right now. They worked really well for my dogs. Like with anything else, it’s good to switch it up and not use the same product all the time.
Also for kms I want to recommend you a very good probiotic that I have been giving duke for a little and it really has helped with his stools, skin, and he barely has has anymore and if he does it doesn’t smell bad at all. The probiotic I’m giving him is the Biostareq Terra Biota K9. Pretty cheap and I researched and talked to their formulator directly and really after all the information I wouldn’t even consider another probiotic. The digestive enzyme I’m giving him is the Swanson Plant based digestive enzymes. I give him the probiotic once a day ever other day. The enzyme is every meal or if you wanted I give him the digestive enzyme on the meal where I feed him more than in the morning. Sorry for the double wall of text. I’m just pretty passionate about dr Tim’s and the Biostareq probiotic.
Well dr Tim’s actually says to feed a whole cup less than what was recommended on the nv. I’m feeding him now like 2 1/4 cups a day divided into 2 meals. Supposedly for his weight which is 42 pounds he should be getting like 2 cups a day. On NV when he was 30 pounds he was already getting 3 cups a day. I know this is because dr Tim’s is higher per kibble than the nv so it’s convinient that you can feed him less but still be more. Duke has really been doing well on the dr Tim’s. Also recommend nutri source large breed puppy for anyone who has a puppy with soft stools. Nutri source really helped me firm his stools up after he was having intolerances to rabbit. If you have any other questions let me know! Even more so if you have very specific questions about where dr Tim’s sources his proteins and such then I would suggest emailing dr Tim directly. He is extremely friendly and helpful and answered my like 6 emails pretty quickly hahaha
4 months ago
