[lilyh]

Duke the Boxer,

Not sure if you saw my previous question to you, but was wondering how much you serve a day of Dr. Tim’s Kinesis?

Wendy

[kms]

Hi – I’m new here. I was using DFA to problem-solve and evaluate diets for my 5 mo male Weim (Augie) and ended up on this thread. WOW – what a great source of info! I’ve learned a lot and want to thank HDM and all the others who contributed. Here’s my story and my problem. Any advice would really be appreciated… especially would like input from HDM..…

We brought Augie home at 9 wks and he had soft/runny stool. Vet found roundworms and treated them. After the “all clear”, I thought his stool would get better – but it didn’t. Vet checked his stool again and found very high levels of “Clostridium” and a few other bacteria commonly found in dirt (Augie is a compulsive dirt/mud/rock eater – we’re working on it). Vet put him on Metronidozol and Pro-Pectalin for 20 days (2 rounds) – it did not resolve. Then he put him on SMZ (another antibiotic) and a bland diet for 16 days. During that time, his stool got bright yellow and was still runny all the time. He also stopped gaining weight and lost several lbs (was supposed to be 38-42 lbs, but dropped to 27 lbs). I asked about using a Probiotic and canned pumpkin, but vet didn’t want to introduce anything new to his GI tract. We tested his stool again – and finally all the bacteria levels were normal and no worms. BUT his stool was still soft/runny. He also had developed colitis from the constant diarrhea/soft stool. I started giving him 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal and slowly (over 12 days) I transitioned him from Eukanuba Puppy Growth (the breeders kibble) to Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He has now been on 100% Orijen for 11 days and I’m still giving him the pumpkin. His stool has gotten a little better – it’s formed about 75% of the time and soft about 25%. But the last couple days it has had a slick greasy coating on the outside. What does that mean?

Based on what I learned here, I have a new plan (I think). Much of this is new to me (have never used probiotics or enzymes and have never rotated foods). Also, I’m very interested in going raw (commercially made), but I don’t feel confident enough to pull the trigger yet – especially since his bowels have been so messed up for the last 3 months. What do you think of this plan:

1) Get him off Orijen – calcium is too high – did not know that till I saw HDM’s list.
2) Choose 3-4 high protein kibbles from HDM list and plan to rotate at the end of each bag.
3) Make the next food in the rotation a non-chicken, since the Euk and Orijen were both chicken based.
4) Choose a variety of toppers to be used as 20% of each meal. Use a different topper at each meal.
5) Start giving a probiotic and digestive enzymes with every meal
6) Continue 1 heaping tsp canned pumpkin with each meal
7) Learn more about going raw – would like to start with commercially made and go from there. Maybe start by using a commercial raw (THK, Primal, Darwin’s) as the topper? or is that too hard for a dog to digest (mixing raw with non-raw)?

Do I give a Probiotic and Dig Enzymes at each meal indefinitely – or just during transitions from 1 food to the next?
Do I continue the pumpkin indefinitely?
Should I add fish oil and how much?
He’s up to 32.5 lbs, but still can see hips and ribs a little. What can I do to safely get some weight on him?

I really appreciate what I have learned here and look forward to advice. Thanks!

[losul]

Kanuckle,

Im not very savvy with this stuff, but it seems like if you do a screenshot(s) of the document first, then you should be able to print it up?

I think windows 7 and above has a snipping tool to make it a little easier to do the screenshots.

[Duke The Boxer]

I highly recommend dr Tim’s kinesis grain inclusive

[lilyh]

I am the one that said Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy no longer has corn gluten IF the bag you buy has an expiration or use by date of November 2014 or later. This is coming from talking directly to the company that makes it. Even if it still lists corn gluten on the bag, the company legally has 6 months after changing the ingredients to update the bag.

My 16 week old English Setter puppy is on Nutrisource after having very soft stools with Wellness Core Puppy. She has done well on it but I plan to do a rotational diet and I think my next food will be Dr. Tim’s.

[gsdmommy89]

RescueDaneMom:

Since adding the NV Turkey, his stools turned soft again. Also, it smells much stronger. Maybe grain free isn’t for him, although I don’t want to give up yet. I’m gonna try the NutriSource because of your earlier comment, that it seems to settle well with tummies. And I’m also going to try the supplement you recommend. He really likes the pumpkin, alone and with kibble, so I’ll keep giving it to him. I agree with you on the corn gluten, but I’m going to try the NutriSource first. After that I’ll try the NV Prairie. Thank you so much for your help. If there’s anything else you’d like to tell me, please do so

[RescueDaneMom]

If you stick with grain-inclusive, I would choose NVP Large Breed over NutriSource. That is based on my personal opinion and what I would feed my dog. I don’t like that NutriSource uses corn gluten meal. The NV uses brown rice, barley, oatmeal, and millet for carbs where NutriSource used brown rice, white rice, barley, and corn gluten meal. Other than that they are very similar.

How is he doing on the NV LID? Better, worse, or the same as when you were feeding Fromm?

I googled OptaGest because I’ve never heard of it. I applaud you for using digestive enzymes. However, if he is super sensitive and having loose stools, you may also want to add probiotics. A lot of people recommend the Mercola pets digestive enzymes and probiotics (though they are pricey). I use Dr. Langers 15 strain probiotic from Swanson’s: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-probiotics-dr-stephen-langers-ultimate-15-strain-probiotic-fos-60-veg-caps It helps our rottie with cancer and our pitt digest their food so much better.

It could be his digestive system needs more help to digest the kibble.

[kanuckle]

Are others able to print the list? I always get a 404 error when trying to print. Apparently this is a known bug with google docs which has to do with the document permissions.

I’ve read some in this thread have the same problem and others state they are able to print it out. I’ve tried 3 different browsers and from both Windows and Ubuntu. Sorry if this has already been addressed. I miss the ability to search a specific thread.

I’m very appreciative to have all this research shared for all and would love to be able to print out the list and take it to the pet food store. I am bringing home a Ridgeback puppy next week and want to feed him well.

Thanks,

Dan

[gsdmommy89]

I was reading the comments underneath the DFA review for NutriSource and there are comments about it being good on the tummy. I’ll try that first and see how it goes. The only thing that makes it a teenie bit iffy for me is that it says it contains corn gluten meal, but I remember someone on here saying it doesn’t contain corn anymore?

[Duke The Boxer]

I know duke was having problems on the NV Rabbit and when I started to mix in nutri source large breed his stools were completely firm. Almost too firm for my liking.

[gsdmommy89]

RescueDaneMom:

You’re right. I completely forgot about the NV Large Breed. I didn’t know that about NutriSource. I know I’d have to try different foods to see which one he does best with, but in your opinion should I go with something grain inclusive then? He seems like the type with a sensitive stomach. Although with treats he does very well, no matter what type they are.

If I go stick with grain inclusive, should I try the NutriSource or NV Large Breed?

[RescueDaneMom]

I’ve read many times on the forums that Nutrisource is easy on the tummy and easy to switch to. I’ve fed Earthborn and my Dane liked it, but not every dog tolerates the peas well. Two grain-inclusive nature’s variety foods are on the list too- Nature’s Variety Prairie Puppy & NVP Large Breed Puppy.

[gsdmommy89]

Yes, I printed her list out before I brought my puppy home.

[InkedMarie]

Are those foods on HoundDogMoms list of appropriate foods?

[gsdmommy89]

Hi everyone. I have a 4.5 month old GSD. I was feeding him Fromm Large Breed since 8 weeks up until 1 week ago. His stool would always be soft. Not runny, but not easy to pick up stools. I thought maybe the Fromm was too rich for him since it contains about three different types meat. I added pumpkin to his food and have been using OptaGest. His stools firmed up with that, but he’s always had gas. I decided to switch to Nature’s Variety LID Turkey thinking maybe something bland will help. Well his stools are back to soft, even though I’m transitioning slowly. And he doesn’t really seem to like the NV. Maybe it’s too bland? I was thinking of returning it and going with Earthborn instead. I just don’t know if to go for the Coastal Catch or Meadow Feast. Don’t know which would be easier on his tummy. I know I went to grain inclusive to grain free, that’s why I’m still weaning him to Nature’s Variety. But should I stick to grain inclusive then? If not the Earthborn formulas, I was thinking NutriSource Large Breed. It is grain inclusive, but only has chicken as a meat source.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

[Parr]

Mfulton7, and Pattyvaughn,

Oh I am so glad I was able to help someone else for a change! : )

Thank you Patty, once again! This does seem easier to calculate than the calcium you explained earlier. : ) I’ll give it a try. I have been adding some meat of the same protein, and cooked green beans, to Abbey’s meals and she LOVE’S it!

[mfulton7]

That is exactly what I was talking about Parr! Thank you so much. All of the researching I’ve been doing on this site lately has me forgetting where I read what. I’m so glad that you found and posted that list for me. I really appreciate it!

[theBCnut]

Thanks Parr! That is exactly the list mfulton is looking for.

So, to determine dry matter(DM) protein(so much easier):
1) Subtract the moisture % from 100%. That gives you the % of total dry matter in the diet.
2) Divide the protein% by the total DM% and multiply by 100. That will give you the DM protein%
3) You can do the same again, but with the fat% to get the DM fat%

[Parr]

Pattyvaughn,

Thank you so much for letting me know the protein was based on the dry matter rather than the guaranteed analysis. I went back to the websites but not all of them show the dry matter information. I hate to ask, but can you tell me the formula to determine that result? You did such a good job on the calcium calculation! : ) Seriously, I love the detail you share! You are extremely helpful to everyone! Especially since I am new to this site this last week, I’ve had several questions. You have been very patient and helped me sort through all this information. Thank you so much! It is so much to take in, But I am trying.

Mfulton,

I think you may be talking about the list of “pea-free” food that was on another thread, “Dog Food Ingredients”, under the question, “Anyone’s dog allergic to Peas?”. I happened to be reading that one too so I’ve copied it here for you. I hope this is what you were looking for.

pugmomsandy wrote:

Grandma Lucy’s and The Honest Kitchen have some pea free foods. Also Great Life grain free/Pioneer Naturals. Here’s some pea free foods I had written down last year. I’m not sure if they’re still pea free:
Timberwolf
TOTW Pacific Stream (canola)
EVO red meats
EVO turkey & chicken
Pinnacle Peak (quinoa)
Grandma Lucy’s Pureformance
Natures Logic – millet, no potato
Great Life
Canine Caviar
I and Love and You by OnlyNaturalPet.com

[mfulton7]

I couldn’t remember who it was. The ingredient lists overwhelm me also. There are so many different brands and types of foods plus a lot of the online websites don’t give you the option to search for foods without peas. I will keep searching and use that formula also. I had been looking at just the minimum percentages rather than the maximum. I’m so glad that you pointed that out to me. Thanks so much for thehelpful info 🙂

[theBCnut]

I’m not the one that recommended pea free foods to you, that’s what overwhelms me, ingredient lists.

Different family lines of Dobies are vastly different sizes. We had one that was definitely from a medium sized line. But the vet I worked for had a Warlock Dobie that was close to being Great Dane sized. If you don’t know what size yours should be, play it safe and assume it will be large.

[mfulton7]

Oh wow that’s overwhelming! So I’m assuming the Fromm isn’t going to be a good choice. I can’t remember what pea free foods you recommended to me already but are there any that come to your mind at the moment? Also would you consider a doberman a large breed? I’ve read some people classify them as a medium breed. Thanks so much for all your help it very helpful 🙂

[theBCnut]

when I tell you, you will know that you had a great reason for that blank mind, but here goes.

1)Multiply calcium% by 1000g. That gives you the grams of calcium/kg
2)Divide the grams of calcium/kg by the kcal/kg for the food. That gives you the grams of calcium/kcal.
3)Multiply the grams of calcium/kcal by 1000/1000. That gives you grams of calcium/1000kcal.

I hope I didn’t mess that up. Also remember, don’t go by the calcium minimum on the bag. You have to contact the company and get the actual figures.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by theBCnut.

[mfulton7]

Forgive my blank mind at the moment how would I calculate this?

[theBCnut]

You have to remember it isn’t just the calcium%, it’s the grams calcium per 1000kcal of food. It matters how much of the food the dog would have to eat.

[mfulton7]

Does anyone know why the fromm nutritionals grain inclusive whitefish flavor and the salmon flavors are not included on the list? I’ve checked the calcium levels and they seem to be okay. Am I missing something?

[RescueDaneMom]

Patty- thank you for clarifying. I was struggling with it.

[theBCnut]

Karink
Rosemary does not cause seizures, but some believe that it can bring on a seizure in a dog that has epilepsy. Rosemary did not affect my epilepsy dog at all.

[theBCnut]

Parr and Jewels
As far as a food that is appropriate for large breed growth and in regards to protein levels, meat has a lot of phosphorus in it naturally and the calcium/phosphorus ratio has to be in a certain range, so to keep the calcium low enough, they have to use meats that are low in phosphorus and/or limit the amount of meat. That’s why the really high protein foods aren’t on the list.

When I say some people have a personal limit of 30% protein, I mean they won’t feed a food that has less than that. I am however referring to dry matter, not guaranteed analysis. If you want to keep the calcium/phosphorus balanced but add more protein to a meal, tripe is the way to go. Not the bleached tripe that the butcher or grocery store sells though, green or canned tripe.

[lilyh]

Duke the Boxer,

How much Dr. Tim’s Kinesis are you giving your puppy? My English Setter puppy is currently 16 weeks old and 20 lbs. According to Dr. Tim’s feeding recommendation the max I should give her at this age and weight is 1.75 cups.

On her current food, Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy, Annie eats 3 cups a day and I am sure would gobble up more if I let her. So I was wondering how your puppy reacts to the smaller quantity recommendation, because Dr. Tim’s is high on my list to try next.

Thank you.

[Duke The Boxer]

ok. well i am now feeding duke dr tims kinesis and duke is doing very well. He did not do so well on the NV Rabbit as his stools were very loose. I will try another NV Instinct because his coat and the amount of times he went to the bathroom were greatly improved. I also have tried the wellness core puppy food and it probably was my second favorite dog food behind dr tims. I recommend these dog foods to anyone with a large breed puppy

[RescueDaneMom]

Duke The Boxer-

LOL! The calcium on Wellness Core Puppy is reported as “not more than 1.5%” meaning it’s a maximum. 1.23 is the actual percentage of calcium when they tested it.

[Duke The Boxer]

wow im so dumb i had to log in to view the document. But interesting thing though on wellness core’s site it says the calcium on their puppy food is 1.5 but HDM has it listed as 1.23. I wonder if they updated their formula and now it has more calcium

[RescueDaneMom]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1

[Duke The Boxer]

Damn Marie or another one of you ladies that have the list can you reupload it as i believe something happened to the original document that HDM posted. I cant open the google docs anymore

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi karink!

Unfortunately, you never know what is going to bother a dog until you try it. Does the sudden scratching coincide with the change of food or could it be something else? If you suspect it’s the food, then I would switch to something else to see if it stops. My dog did very well on Annamaet Salcha but he doesn’t have any food intolerances. What was he eating before? Did it have peas or potatoes? Grain-free foods tend to have peas and potatoes in them. It can be hard to find one without both.

Sorry I can’t help with the rosemary extract. I haven’t heard that before. It’s interesting because The Honest Kitchen is removing rosemary from all of their formulas because of customer feedback.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi jewels!

I think most would agree that high protein is good for large breed puppies. Yes, Patty was saying that some people use 30% as the minimum protein level that they will feed. I am one of those people. I believe HDM once said that there is no such thing as too much protein for a healthy dog. For a large breed puppy (LGP) you really have to be careful with the the amount of calcium in the food because they are prone to developing bone issues if their bones grow too fast.

The calcium and phosphorous on the bags and websites are usually reported as a minimum percentage (ie 1.0% min). HDM contacted the companies and asked for the actual percentages (not minimums) of calcium and phosphorous in their foods, then calculated how many grams of each were in 1000kcal of the food. This factors in the calorie counts in the foods. Some foods can be deceiving because they look like they have low calcium but because of the calorie count you have to feed more of it so you end up feeding more calcium than is safe for a growing large breed puppy.

So yes, as far as calcium goes, you are missing a piece- the formula that HDM uses to convert the calcium % to grams of calcium per 1000kcal. That would only give you a minimum number though because that’s what is reported on the bag. You would need to contact the company to get the actual amount of calcium in the food. That’s why it’s easiest for all of us to use the list that HDM made.

NV Prairie LGP is on the list so you are fine with what you have been feeding. If you want to use a higher protein food for the next in his rotation, you could try Annamaet Aqualuk or Salcha (30%), Black Gold Ultimate Grain Free 32/18 Salmon (32%), Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch (32%), Wellness Core Puppy (36%).

I hope this is helpful and clears some things up for you.

[karink]

RescueDaneMom – Thank you! I did actually hear back from Nutrisca and the calcium/phosphorus levels are too high!
Was thinking about Natures Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Turkey but my only concern is that one of the ingredients is Rosemary Extract and I’ve read that has been known to cause seizures. Can anyone confirm? Other than that I love Nature’s Variety but the seizure probability worries me. I’ve had my puppy for a week now and switched him to Annamaet Salcha which is great, on the list, no grains, good protein levels but I’ve noticed puppy has started scratching more than when I first got him which worries me. I’m wondering if maybe it’s the peas or potatoes. It can’t be the chicken because the food the breeder had him on was chicken based. I’m so confused and worried. I did so much research and thought I found a great food but all the scratching all of a sudden doesn’t seem normal.

[JoshFL]

I’ve requested that part of the guarantee be altered – we’ll see what they say. They ask you to keep receipts for the first year for the food and vitamins they require. The agreement is pretty much worthless – it’s like every time one of their customers had a bad vet experience over the last 15 years, the breeder just added a line to their agreement saying, “it doesn’t cover this.”

We’re a bit off topic of food selection now – sorry.

[InkedMarie]

Josh, what would the breeders say if you switch? I’m very honest but would they know if you fed something else?

[lilyh]

We have a 16 week old English Setter Puppy. Sometimes I catch Annie eating pebbles, dirt, grass, etc. Could switching her food help?

When we got her from the breeder she was eating Purina Large Breed Puppy Chow. We switched her to Wellness Core Puppy but her stools were incredibly loose despite supplementing with pumpkin etc, so then we switched her again to Nutrisource Large Breed Puppy. Any suggestions of the next food to try? Not sure her diet is related at all to her non-edible nibblings, but thought I would run it by the forums to get your thoughts.

Thank you.

• This topic was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by lilyh.

[jewels]

Rescue Dane Mom and Pattyvaughn, when you say 30% is a personal limit for some are you meaning 30% is the minimum protein percent? Do most on this site agree that you can’t have too high of protein for a large breed puppy? I’m trying to be aware of the calcium percentage and have been referring to HDM’s list. I just want to make sure that I’m not missing some other important detail. I have a Standard Poodle puppy who was 16 weeks on Monday. The breeder advised that I feed him a 50/50 mixture of Eukanuba Adult and Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach (which is also an adult formula). She said this mixture worked best to ensure that the puppy didn’t grow too fast and his bones and muscles/ligaments would grow at the same pace. She said she’d been using this formula with her puppies for some time and had fantastic results. I met the parents and grandparents of my puppy as well as older siblings from a previous litter and all were very healthy, active dogs. She does all her “testing” before she breeds any of her dogs and they all have good results, so it’s hard to argue with her approach. I was still hesitant to feed a puppy and adult food, however, so I chose NV Prairie Large Breed Puppy and switched him over. I hope I did the right thing! He has been on this NV formula for a month now and his stool is still fairly soft. It has form when it comes out, but it is too soft to pick up right away… if that makes sense. I’d like to start rotating him with a few other foods, but want to make sure I have the calcium and protein thing down first! Another question on calcium… I know a food should be no more than 3.5 g calcium, but on the list everything looks like it’s hovering around the 1.0 mark. Obviously there must be a piece I’m missing here… Thanks for the help!

[JoshFL]

That’s my thought, InkedMarie – the dog will get what the dog likes…I’m not going to be bound to one food. If the dog reacts poorly to it, what then?

[InkedMarie]

Josh, wow, they stipulate what you feed? I think I’d have passed on that pup. No offense intended! I feed Natures Logic to one and I’d feel the same way. All dogs are different and they need whatever works for them.

[Parr]

RescueDaneMom,

Thank you for your response explaining that the list does not take percent of protein into account. I will keep that in mind as I look through the list and be sure to check out the protein levels as well.

I am just learning all of this and am trying to get it right. I know everyone here has been at this so much longer, and I appreciate the guidance and support. Thank you to everyone for all your help. Information is empowering!

[mfulton7]

Not sure if this has been addressed yet but I’m thinking about trying Fromm Four Star grain inclusive whitefish and potato or the salmon flavor. I noticed both of these flavors meet the calcium limits and are rated 4 star. Am I overlooking something else?

[JoshFL]

Thanks, RDM – very helpful. The breeder’s health guarantee actually stipulates that Life’s Abundance food be used for the 1st year or the guarantee is void. I think I’ll be asking to redact that section of the contract.

[RescueDaneMom]

karink- Nutrisca may not be on the list for several reasons. It is possible that the company did not get back with her when she reached out to them for the “actual” calcium and phosphorous levels. It is also possible that they did give her the actual levels and they were too high to be included on the list. I would choose a food from HDM’s list that is potato-free rather than using Nutrisca. I’m sure HDM didn’t include it for a reason.

Regarding why a food may or may not be on this list. The criteria used is this:
-Rated at least 4 stars by the Dog Food Advisor.
-No more than 3.5 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal.
-Labeled for “growth” or “all life stages.”
If a food is not on the list,they either did not meet the criteria or they did not provide HDM with the “actual” levels (not the min stated on the bag or website) of calcium and phosphorous when she contacted them.

Regarding protein, it is not a criteria for the list. There is no minimum protein percentage to make the list. The focus is on the calcium/phosphorous, not % protein. 30% is a personal limit for some.

[InkedMarie]

For those of you wondering if certain foods are appropriate for large breed pups, I implore you to choose foods on HDM’s list.

[chrisalcor]

I agree with Patti – I raise rottweilers have push protein whenever possible. I use all life stages most often – and lots of grain free. Don’t forget lots of raw meaty bones. It increases the calcium, supplements with the chewing needs and the protein in the marrow is great for their skin, coats and muscle growth.