Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition

Dog Food Advisor Forums Diet and Health Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition

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  • #28372 Report Abuse
    gsdmommy89
    Member

    Mfulton

    Most definitely. The brand isn’t really important. I know a baker’s warehouse near my city that carries huge cans of plain pumpkin for about $8.50. So when I go there I stock up. If I don’t have any and I go to the grocery store, I usually buy what’s on sale. Also, I have left over uncarved pumpkins from Halloween. Those will not go to waste. Like InkedMarie said though, make sure it’s absolutely plain

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by gsdmommy89.
    #28374 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Just a hint, I cooked my own pumpkin by boiling it and then pureeing it. It does not work as well for diarrhea as canned or baked pumpkin. The only thing I can figure is that it already has all the liquid it can hold in it, so it can’t absorb more from the stomach and intestines.

    #28378 Report Abuse
    kanuckle
    Participant

    Thanks losul. I did go the screenshots route using the snipping tool.

    A bit of a pain, especially if the list gets edited / updated, but it did work. I thought there might be an easier way.

    Thanks.

    #28384 Report Abuse
    losul
    Member

    Your welcome kanuckle and glad it worked.

    There probably is an easier way, but when it comes to operating a computer, everything is hard for me, lol. I can build a computer, no problems, using/operating one is a whole different story.

    #28388 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Duke the Boxer, RescueDaneMom and PattyVaughn –

    Thanks for responding so quick. I started to try to learn about the various probiotics and enzymes on the supplements thread and just got totally overwhelmed at all the choices (think my brain is full). So I ordered Mercola Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes, since that is what I’ve seen recommended the most here. But I’m going to try the Biostareq Terra Biota K9 and Dr. Langer’s also – sounds like supplements can be just as trial and error as the kibble.

    PattyVaughn –

    When I cut “back to a couple times a week” – do you mean cut back the probiotics AND the digestives enzymes or cut back probiotics only?

    I saw on Mercola’s website where they recommend that you feed the Digestive Enzymes a couple hours after each meal, not at each meal. Is that what I should do or just give it with the meal?

    As far as the pumpkin, I will up the dose. He’s 32 lbs now, so that’s 3 tsp pumpkin – is that 3 tsp per meal or per day?

    As far as the 20%…. He eats 3 c kibble per day, so adding a 20% topper would mean a little under ¾ cup, right? And that means I should decrease his kibble by 20% to account for the topper, right? (I feel like I’m asking stupid questions, but I need to make sure).

    Should the meat be raw or cooked? I use chopped cooked chicken for training treats, but he has never eaten anything raw – I’m worried it will upset his stomach.

    Thanks so much to everyone – I finally feel like I’m getting somewhere!!!

    #28389 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Can’t figure out how to edit that post… wanted to add that I also ordered 12 cans of Tripett (original green) through Amazon.

    #28390 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Hi kms

    First, you can only edit posts for about 5 minutes after you first post them. The word edit will be up by the post number.

    Next, I was talking about cutting back the probiotics only. Since all of the enzymes that would have been in kibble are destroyed by the cooking process, I always add enzymes to kibble and cooked foods, raw doesn’t need it. Adding enzymes after the meal does certain things that are beneficial for the dog, but that just doesn’t work for many people, myself included. I give them with the meal.

    In regards to the pumpkin, yes, 3 teaspoons per meal, which happens to be 1 tablespoon, and when his stools firm up start cutting back and see if you can cut out the pumpkin, until the next transition. Did I tell you to freeze your pumpkin in to ice cubes so you have the extras whenever you need them?

    20% would be 3/5 of a cup, which is really close to 1/2 cup. You need to decrease the kibble based on calories not voulme though. And in fact you can figure your 20% based on calories too, if you like.

    Finally, until his stool issue is sorted out, I would probably cook the meat you add, but once you get his issues sorted, then start giving him some raw. Even if it is only a raw meaty bone a few time a week, he will get some of the benefits of raw.

    #28439 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Pattyvaughn –

    Thank you so much! The rotation I’m thinking about is ….Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit, Earthborn Wholistic Catch, Wellness Core Puppy, and I’ll look for one more that is beef or turkey based to maintain the variety.

    I do, however, have a big bag of Orijen Large Breed Puppy Left (more than I would need to get through the transition). Should I use the Orijen as treats and/or Kong stuffing? Or can I finish off the Orijen bag before I start the transition by feeding something like half Orijen and half balanced canned food that is low in calcium (to offset the Orijen)? I would have to kinda transition to that mixture though. He seems to have a sensitive stomach/GI tract. He has been pooping a lot since on Orijen (4-5 times per day – some firm, some runny) – might be due to the higher fiber content (6%) of Orijen? Also, he has gas and breath that smell like “fish” (weird, cause Orijen is mostly chicken – herring is 4th on the list). Do you know what this means? Thanks again for all the help.

    #28447 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Add 20% Tripett to the Orijen, it’s low calcium. I would transition slowly to start. You will find the more you transition the faster you can go, but don’t rush at the beginning. All the pooping is probably due to the fiber, the gas too. No idea why the breath smells like fish, but you aren’t the first person to say that either.

    Your plan for your rotation sounds good so far.

    #28449 Report Abuse

    Kms I would order a small bag of the rabbit and see how your dog handles it because my puppy did not react well to the rabbit at all. His stools were dry soft but he did do poo a lot less. If your dog has no intolerances to rabbit as the protein then I would highly recommend it!

    #28477 Report Abuse
    mfulton7
    Member

    I need y’alls help again. As you remember I’ve been on here lately asking about possible food intolerance and a recommended food. She had been on EB Coastal catch for 5 weeks and her stools were soft she was gassy. So on the zignature review I commented that a worker at the local pet food store advised me to try the turkey formula. I bought that formula got home did some research and realized it wasn’t on HDM’s list. I asked a few questions around this site did some more research and decided to try EB again but this time try the meadowfeast formula. I ordered the coastal catch for the transition and the meadowfeast from chewy on Tuesday (still waiting on the order). Now that my dogs have been on the zig for a few days they seem fine. No vomiting, diarrhea or other transitioning issues. That being said what should I do when I get the order? Mix the meadowfeast with the coastal catch or should I send the coastal catch back since they are transitioning with no problems.

    #28478 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    I just realized that the NVI rabbit has even higher fiber (7%) than the Orijen. If the high fiber is what is making him poop so much, then this could make it worse. The 1% increase isn’t that much – but maybe I should opt for one with a lot less fiber. I feel like everything he eats goes in one end and out the other with no absorption. Could that be why he’s gaining weight so slowly? and will the digestive enzymes help with that situation?

    If I don’t go with the rabbit, other non-chicken choices would be: Earthborn Wholistic Coastal Catch, Annamaet Aqualuk or Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey Meal. They are 29-32% protein, and 3.5-4% fiber.

    I’ll try the digestive enzymes and probiotic for a few days before I do anything else (just to introduce each change one at a time). Hopefully, that will get his stools more normal and then can take the next step. Everything should be arriving today (enzymes, probiotic, tripett) and I found small bags of NVI Rabbit and Earthborn Wholistic at my local pet store. Thanks for any advice and for following this saga….

    #28495 Report Abuse
    lilyh
    Member

    Pattyvaughn

    I am trying to follow your calculations for calcium/kcal but am confused about step 3 of the formula you provided.

    1)Multiply calcium% by 1000g. That gives you the grams of calcium/kg
    2)Divide the grams of calcium/kg by the kcal/kg for the food. That gives you the grams of calcium/kcal.
    3)Multiply the grams of calcium/kcal by 1000/1000. That gives you grams of calcium/1000kcal.

    Isn’t 1000/1000=1?

    Here is my example:

    Have been emailing back and forth with Dr. Tim and he suggested that because my English Setter puppy, Annie, is an active breed that Pursuit might be a better fit than Kinesis. I asked if it was appropriate for a puppy since it is not labeled as an All Life Stages food and he said it was. I mentioned calcium and he again said it was fine for large breed.

    But just to be sure, I ran the math myself. And if someone could just check make sure I was accurate.

    Calcium percentage: 1.06
    Multiplied by 1000,
    1,060
    1,060 divided by 3945 kcal/kg = .26869
    .26869 x 1000/1000 = .26869

    I am thinking the answer is supposed to be 2.68, but other than multiplying by 10, not sure how to get there?

    Please help?

    #28496 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Hi kms
    The enzymes will help him to get every bit of nutrition out of his food so you may notice a difference from that alone. Also the Orijen has a lot of beans, peas, lentils, which digest differently for some dogs, so even though the NVI has 1% more fiber, you may find that the stool is harder and smaller anyway. You won’t know until you try.

    #28497 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Lily, I hope this helps.

    1.06%X 1000g=10.6g calcium/kg

    10.6g calcium/kg divided by 3945kcal/kg=0.00268695g calcium/kcal

    multiply the numerator by 1000=2.68695g calcium

    multiply the denominator by 1000= 1000 kcal

    put the numerator and denominator back together and you have
    2.69g of calcium per 1000kcal

    Part of your math problem’s problem was forgetting that 1.06% means 1.06/100

    #28512 Report Abuse
    mercman
    Participant

    I have a 12 week old GSD female puppy. I was feeding her Nutro Natural Choice Large puppy breed chicken/whole brown rice/oatmeal food. She was doing a lot of scratching I was concerned about possible food allergies and went to my local feed store. They recommended Infinia Zenfood Grainfree Salmon and Sweet potato even though it is not specifically a large breed puppy kibble. This recommendation was based on a 1.2% calcium level and on being a Grainfree kibble. Is this the right choice. Incidentally the itching may have been due to over-bathing.

    My male GSD (5YOA) is eating Costco’s Kirkland Salmon and sweet potato, BTW. I did see this listed in HoundDog Mom’s acceptable large breed puppy food list. Would this be an appropriate choice for my puppy too?

    #28515 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Any food on Hound Dog Mom’s list is good for large breed puppies barring other problems.

    To know if the food she is on is OK, you need the actually calcium level, not the minimum on the bag, and the kcals/kg.

    #28544 Report Abuse
    Parr
    Member

    Hi Mercman,

    I do not see the Kirkland Dog food you mentioned on HDM ‘s Large Breed Dog Food List. I looked up Kirkland’s Signature Sweet Potato dry dog food on DFA list in general and found, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato dry dog food, but it only had 3.5 stars and I think the foods on HDM’s list must be 4 stars or higher. Not sure if that is the one you were referencing or not.

    I am currently looking through the list for rotation foods and didn’t remember seeing a Kirkland brand on the list. I am new to all of this so I may be In error. I know how easy it is to mix up information read here just because the site is so full of wonderful information, it is hard for me to keep things straight sometimes. I just suggest you double check that the Kirkland food meets the calcium levels needed for large breeds. I tried to find it on the Costco site but it isn’t listed.

    I hope this helps.

    #28546 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Yes, HDM’s list is 4 star foods and better. I’m not sure if Diamond or Costco would give actual calcium levels or not, and it is vital to get actual levels rather than the minimum listed on the bag.

    #28568 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    OK – We started the Mercola Digestive enzymes yesterday. For his body weight (32 lbs), it says to use 2 scoops per meal, but I only gave him 1 scoop per meal (paranoid) just to start slow. He pooped 3 times yesterday and it was half formed and half runny – so no change so far. Today I gave him a full dose at breakfast (2 scoops) and will give him a full dose at dinner. How long does it typically take to see some results with Digestive Enzymes?

    As far as the Probiotic, I didn’t start that yet. Wanted to add things 1 at a time in case something goes wrong. Thought I’d start adding the Probiotic in a day or so – and will add it to each meal for several days. Then, I can back to Probiotic 2-3 times/week and continue the Digestive Enzymes with each meal.

    After he has been on the Probiotic for a couple days and no issues, then I can start transitioning him to NVI Rabbit Meal. Am I moving too slow on this or is this ok?

    #28573 Report Abuse
    mercman
    Participant

    Thanks all! I’ll check again but last time I looked the Kirkland food in question was on HDM’s list, but maybe it was and early list…………….

    Regards, Kurt

    #28580 Report Abuse
    lmnordrum
    Member

    This thread is just full of excellent information and I’ve printed HDM’s list on food. However I’m still confused. lol

    I have a Giant Schnauzer puppy that I’ll pick up right before Christmas. Breeder feeds Royal Canin puppy, but I’m not thrilled that it has corn in it. I’d like to feed my puppy a at least a corn-free food, but breeder recommends lower protein for these dogs. Grain free foods seem to have a pretty high protein level. She starts with RC Mini even for the big dogs (smaller kibble.)

    Any recommendations for the Giant or experience with lower protein (less than 23%)? Based on what I’m reading about growth and calcium, I’m thinking she likes lower protein so they don’t get into any super growth spurt. Breeder says she has never had a problem with hip dysplasia in her dogs.

    Thanks!

    #28583 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Growth spurts don’t come from protein level. There is an old myth going around that won’t die, because ignorant breeders perpetuate it, that high protein causes too fast growth in large breed dogs. This has been disproven. Period. The real culprits are overfeeding and too much calcium. This has been proven. Period. I’m relatively positive that one of the links that Hound Dog Mom provided on the first page of this thread was to the study summary where these facts were proven. However, you can google it for yourself, just google “calcium levels for large breed puppies” and you will get a few different studies about it. If you want to go at it from the other direction, google “protein levels for large breed puppies.” Try looking for actual science rather than some breeders opinion though, there are definitely articles supporting every opinion under the sun. If in your research, you find that Hound Dog Mom is right, then by all means share what you have learned with your breeder. She needs more current info.

    #28584 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Mercman
    Was it this list?
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
    It doesn’t have Kirkland on it, unless I can’t see what’s in front of me, which isn’t that uncommon after all.

    #28585 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    kms
    I’m imagining that as long as this has been going on that you are going to have to have all the elements together for a bit before you start seeing positive changes. It takes a couple weeks or more to heal the gut.

    #28590 Report Abuse

    Mercman and Patty- I remember a conversation way back in the thread where someone mentioned to HDM that Kirkland’s had changed ratings and had been downgraded from 4 stars. I think it used to be on the original list but was taken off when HDM revised it because it was no longer a 4 star food.

    Mercman- if you really want to use Kirkland’s, reach out to the manufacturer to see if you can get the actual percentage of calcium in the food rather than the minimum and we can see if it’s appropriate for large breed growth.

    #28594 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Yep, Kirkland Signature Nature’s Domain Salmon is on the first list, back on page 1.

    #28600 Report Abuse
    2pups
    Participant

    Hi guys,

    maybe slightly off topic but just wanted to say thanks to all of you posting helpful info on large breed pups. I got a ridgeback pup 5 weeks ago and within a couple of days what seemed like nothing turned into one of his legs beginning to bow and knuckle over. 2 days after that it was breaking my heart to watch him walk. The vet suggested royal canin as a premium dog food, thanks to this site I found out that its only the price that makes this product premium. For 2 days my pup ate this and showed no improvement. After researching the cause of my puppy Dozer’s problem switched him to Holisitic Select for large breed puppies. Within a couple of days there was already improvement showing and within 1 week he was a different happier puppy. His leg is now 100% and his coat feels like silk instead of bristles. So thanks again.

    #28605 Report Abuse
    lilyh
    Member

    2pups,

    So glad Dozer is doing so much better! How old is he now? I met my first ridgeback a couple months. It was a bit intimidating to meet a dog about the size of a deer, but what a gentle giant he was. Curious what food the breeder had him on or what you were feeding your pup when he first started to have issues walking?

    Congrats on having a dog on the mend!

    Lily

    #28611 Report Abuse
    dogspotindia
    Member

    I think you should go with the breed specific food because different breed have different nutritional requirement.

    #28619 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Always ignore dogspotindia posts. It is a spambot and always offers ridiculous advice. I suppose that if you have a dog that doesn’t have “breed specific” food, you should let it starve. Good nutrition is good nutrition and bad nutrition is bad, no matter what breed name they put on the label.

    #28622 Report Abuse
    JoshFL
    Participant

    FYI – Life’s Abundance responded with their actual calcium content for their Large Breed Puppy formula – 1.16%. Since the breeder uses it, it’s 4 stars and has the appropriate calcium content, I will at least use it until I can transition her to another recommended food. Thanks to all for the help.

    #28623 Report Abuse
    Sully’sMom
    Member

    A coworker is getting a large breed puppy in Dec/Jan (yellow lab); my own lab is now 15 months and off puppy food, but I found HDM’s list invaluable. Since this thread is now 50 pages (!), can anyone direct me conveniently to the list so I can give it to my friend? Is there a printable version? Thank you!

    #28624 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    Here you go.
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
    As far as printing, I had no issues, but others have, I believe that doing a screen capture is what they said worked.

    #28625 Report Abuse
    Sully’sMom
    Member

    Thank you Pattyvaughn!

    #28640 Report Abuse
    Sue’s Zoo
    Member

    I have benefitted from so much information in this thread. Thanks to all the contributors. I am trying to track down info for OCRaw dog food. I’ve emailed twice to get the calcium info but have had no response. And I don’t see a phone number on the website. It would cost significantly less to feed but unless I can verify calcium levels I won’t use it. Does anyone have info about OCRaw dog food or another way contact?

    Thanks!

    #28646 Report Abuse
    InkedMarie
    Member

    You’re right, no phone number. That alone would have me crossing it off my list but that’s just me.

    #28647 Report Abuse
    gsdmommy89
    Member

    Hi everyone. So a few days ago I asked some questions about NutriSource and Earthborn Holistic for my 4 mo. old GSD. I ended up choosing the Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch. I couldn’t decide between the Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch (I figured fish is easier to digest than lamb). So far, stools have become firmer and they don’t stink like before. I’m waiting on Dr. Langer’s 15 strain probiotic to arrive, so I can start him on that too. I wonder why the other foods didn’t settle well with him. They were all poultry based. I tried the Fromm LBP (I think it was too rich, his stools were always loose), Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Turkey (he would barely nibble on it, and stools smelled even worse), then Nature’s Variety Prairie LBP (her would eat it, but only cause he had too), then Nutrisource LBP (he would not touch that either). Never would have imagined the grain free fish would do the trick.

    Anyway, just thought I’d share that he’s doing better and wanted to thank everyone for their advice.

    #28663 Report Abuse
    2pups
    Participant

    Hi Lily,

    Dozer is about 13 weeks now. He was part of an unplanned litter of 15. When I picked him up it was from a little house in suburbia and he was in a childs cot with about 8 other pups. Not the greatest start for my little boy. If I could have I would have scooped up all the pups and taken them with me!

    I don’t know what he was being fed but I’m sure it was of a poor quality. His little belly was so swollen when I got him and I think it must have been malnutrition that caused it. My partner went to the pet store and was told Purina Supercoat would be fine, but from what I can tell it is a pretty sub-par dry food. My vet was good enough to recognise that it was a nutrition based problem and did not push to have xrays done. But the Royal Canin she then sold me seemed to increase the problem. So I scoured the net to find the solution.

    Hope you can work out the right food for your pup too.

    #28692 Report Abuse
    lmnordrum
    Member

    Armed with HDM’s list I ventured into the independent pet store today to browse their inventory. They do have Earthborn Ocean Fusion, which is what I’m learning towards feeding my new puppy (I’ll start off with a small bag) but this shop advocates Merrick Grain Free dog food.

    Many foods have the calcium content on the bag, but Merrick does not. I searched their web site and nothing on there either. Sent them an email about this but it will probably be a couple of days until I hear from someone. Has anyone here researched Merrick Grain Free food yet?

    #28702 Report Abuse

    lmnordrum-

    Do you mean Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch? Starting off with a small bag is smart because, as I’m sure you’ve read, some times it takes a few foods before you find the right one.

    Merrick grain free is rated 5 stars. My guess as to why it didn’t make the list is: (1) the calcium is too high to be appropriate for large breed puppy growth or (2) Merrick didn’t respond to HDM’s inquiry about calcium levels in their food.

    edit- Personally, I haven’t looked into the calcium levels in Merrick. I have fed the grain free to adult dogs with good results.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by RescueDaneMom.
    #28716 Report Abuse
    theBCnut
    Member

    The calcium listed on the bag is a minimum, not the actual amount.

    #28720 Report Abuse
    gsdmommy89
    Member

    Imnordrum:

    Merrick’s food (grain free and grain inclusive) are too high in calcium. Both are over 2%. Also, the Earthborn you’d want to go for is Coastal Catch, not Ocean Fusion

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by gsdmommy89.
    #28727 Report Abuse
    lmnordrum
    Member

    My browsing trip was overwhelming, to say the least. I will skip Merrick until the dog is much older. And you’re right, its Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch.

    #28807 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Pattyvaughn (and anyone else)-

    Augie has been on Probiotics and Dig Enzymes for 4 days now. No change in stool so far – he seems to go back and forth between formed, pudding, soft, diarrhea, etc…. But like you said, it may take a few weeks for his gut to heal. Do you think it would be ok to start transitioning him from Orijen LBP to NVI rabbit meal – or should I wait until his stool has stabilized? I’m worried about all that calcium, but also don’t want to overload his system with change.

    Another thing…. he’s finally starting to gain a little weight (about 1 lb every 8 days), but he’s still underweight. He’s now 5.5 months old and 34.5 lbs (should be around 43 lbs) – can see some rib and hip bone. I’m already feeding him 3.5 c/day and the Orijen bag says 2.5-2.75 c/day. Should I increase his kibble? or how about adding some coconut oil instead? (or would the coconut oil complicate things further in his GI tract)?

    Again, thank you so much – and thanks to everyone who adds to this forum.

    #28809 Report Abuse

    kms i dont mean to discourage you but my dog never had firm stools on the nv rabbit. I talked to many vets and people and they all said that only 1 time they saw a case where the dog did well on rabbit as the protein and he was a wolfdog so yeah. Now that duke is on chicken and turkey his stools are perfect. I would recommend Wellness core puppy

    #28811 Report Abuse

    oh and kms i had a 30 lb bag or 26 or whatever nv is of the rabbit and duke never firmed up and i finished the whole bag

    #28812 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Duke The Boxer –

    I like the Wellness Core puppy and was going to use it in the rotation, but it’s chicken based and Augie has been on chicken since he started eating solid food. Breeder had him on Eukanuba Puppy Growth and then I switched him to Orijen LBP. So this time, I was looking for a non-chicken to help balance the nutrition (and also just in case it’s the chicken that’s causing the problem). Others I was thinking about are: Annamaet Aqualuk (salmon, 30% protein), Earthborn Coastal Catch (herring meal, 32% protein), and NVI LID Turkey meal (turkey based, 29% protein).

    Do you feed Duke Wellness Core Puppy? Do you rotate – and what other kibble do you use?

    #28813 Report Abuse
    kms
    Member

    Duke the Boxer –

    I guess it’s also possible that I just need to wait longer for the Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes to do their jobs – maybe that alone would get the stool in order (ie. maybe it has nothing to do with chicken…) But I do need to change his food to one with a lower calcium level. So confusing.

    #28821 Report Abuse

    yeah i rotate wellness core puppy. In my rotation is Dr Tim’s Grain Inclusive, Wellness Core Puppy, Earthborn Costal Catch and my final food that i was rotatin was the nv rabbit but i need to change it out for another food since duke didnt do well on it. But every dog is different so maybe your dog will do much better than duke. Also the Wellness core is turkey and chicken.

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