[DieselJunki]

I know Moose is only 4 months right now BUT I’ve been doing some research about hips and large breed dogs. Doing some Googling I’ve read quite a few people recommend giving a joint supplement even if there are no joint problems in their dog, even starting as young as puppies. Now I have been on a Mercola supplement kick because they seem so well put together and are very well talked about here. They pretty much have me sold on the Hip Supplement but I just wanted to check in here and hear about other people’s experiences with hip and joint supplements.

Now correct me if I’m wrong but when looking for a joint supplement that maintains the hips you would be looking for things with: msm, glucosamine, chondroitin, hydraulic acid.

So far the one’s I have looked into are:
Welly Tails
Vet’s Best
K9 Joint Strong
Mercola

These all seemed to have those 4 things I mentioned up there. Some seemed more for arthritic dogs or dogs that already had painful joints and others seemed better at just being hip and joint maintenance.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumom20 –

I just checked out Big Country Raw’s website – I’m jealous that you can get this food, the price is great! $2.50/lb. for pre-mixed food is very reasonable. I’m not too far from some of the retailers (I’m on the Canadian border) unfortunately I think a law was passed recently making it illegal to transport pet food across the border.

I can’t find a statement of nutritional adequacy on the website and it does appear there are a few things missing that you will need to supplement to make the food balanced. First of all, yes you will want to add omega 3’s as there aren’t any added to the food. Follow the dosage chart I posted previously. Second, after reading the ingredients for each of their foods I can tell you that there are inadequate levels of vitamin e and vitamin d. Vitamin e is difficult to supply in adequate quantities through food alone and therefore should be supplemented. It will be especially critical that you supplement with vitamin e once you start adding omega 3’s as consumption of omega 3’s increases the the fat soluble antioxidant requirement. As a general rule supplement about 50 I.U. vitamin e per 20 lbs. If you get capsules with a high dosage (most come in 200 IU or 400 IU) you can just give one whole capsule 2-3 times per week. For the vitamin d, there is some vitamin d in beef liver (about 50 IU per 4 oz.), but not all of the formulas contain beef liver and even for the formulas that do, I doubt that there is enough to fulfill vitamin d requirements. Vitamin d can be added in supplement form or (more preferably) in whole food form. Some foods that are rich in vitamin d: cod liver oil (~400 IU per tsp.), cage free eggs (~30-50 IU per egg), Kefir (~100 IU per cup), oily fish (amount of vitamin d present varies on the type of fish but sardines, mackerel and salmon are generally considered good sources), some varieties of plain yogurt and cottage cheese are supplemented with vitamin d (check the label). Your dog should be getting about 200 IU vitamin D per pound of food consumed. Also, rotate between all their protein sources – don’t rely on one – this will provide him with the greatest balance. You may also want to consider adding another whole food supplement, I see kelp is is added to a few of the varieties. Kelp is great and supplies a lot of trace nutrients but the more variety the better, especially when a dog is deriving all of their nutrition from whole foods and not relying on synthetically added vitamins and minerals. My dogs get kelp and they also get things like spirulina, alfalfa, wheat grass, bee pollen, chlorella, etc. I switch up their supplements frequently. It says they offer a vitamin/mineral supplement but it doesn’t list the ingredients, you could check that out.

Yes, RMB’s are a wonderful source of glucosamine and chondroitin. Because he’s young and he’s a small breed not prone to joint issues, RMB’s should provide all the joint support he needs for now. I wouldn’t worry about a joint supplement until he’s a senior.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
So here is the chicken dinner ingredients:
Big Country Chicken Dinner
Ingredients
Ground chicken with bone, beef liver, fruit and vegetable puree. Garlic and kelp.
A complete and balanced meal choice. Protein-max 16%. Fat-min 12%. Moisture-62%. Fibre-2.6%
The chicken dinner has the highest fat, the rest are not over 10%. Of course I don’t really know how to convert it to dry matter basis, I did see how on here but I think my calculation was way off, lol!
Other than the fish I don’t see any fish oil added, would you say to add in the krill oil? I think they want you to feed the fish dinner every now and again, but they use cod, haddock or sole.
I guess I will hold off the joint supplement, do rmb’s help supply glucosamine and chrondroitin? He is getting his first chicken wing for his evening meal! I am so excited, I showed it to him and he wanted to take it so I think he will like the true raw diet! But he is still young with no issues so far, so since he is getting it naturally I think he will be good for now!
Thanks for all your help HDM! He is at me right now for his chicken wing!
And I like your schedule for vaccinating, I think I personally would feel better if he got his one year shots, and then I might titer him at 2 and go from there.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shihtzumim20 –

Krill oil is great because it’s low in contaminants and contains a very potent naturally occuring antioxidant called astaxanthin. If the food already has added omega 3’s (fish oil) use the krill oil sparingly because, yes, you can give your dog too much of a good thing. Here’s a dosage chart for fish/krill oil:

-250 mg. daily for toy breeds and cats (1 – 14 lbs.)
-500 mg. daily for small dogs (15 – 29 lbs.)
-1,000 mg. daily for medium dogs (30 – 49 lbs.)
-1,500 mg. daily for large dogs (50 – 79 lbs.)
-2,000 mg. daily for dogs 80+ lbs.

When your dog is on a raw diet that includes bones and cartilage there won’t be as much of a need for a joint supplement because bones/cartilage are full of naturally occurring glucosamine and chondroitin. If you have a senior dog or a dog with an orthopedic problem, however, a supplement may still be necessary. After heavy activity my senior gets a few capsules of Wysong’s Arthegic (my favorite joint supplement). It’s marketed as a human supplement but great for dogs too. Wysong even includes a dosage chart for dogs on their website. It contains boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate.

I personally vaccinate my dogs as puppies (parvo/distemper at 8 weeks, 11 weeks, 14 weeks and a rabies at 16 weeks) and then I vaccinate 1 year after their last puppy booster. I don’t vaccinate again other than rabies every 3 years to comply with law. This is something you need to research yourself and decide what you are comfortable doing with your dog. Some people vaccinate every year, some every 3 years, some like I do, some only do puppy shots and others don’t vaccinate at all. Check out healthypets.mercola.com- Dr. Becker has some great information and videos on vaccinating.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Thanks so much for your reply! After doing some more research I decided to still go with a premade raw, it is a small company and all the ingredients are human grade, and from southern Ontario. It is called Big Country Raw. I have been looking at supplements and have been thinking of adding Krill oil to his raw. Would this be recommended? They do have a fish dinner, but it has salmon and tuna in it, so I think I would like to avoid that. Should I start supplementing him with Krill Oil? I like the benefits, then I read on another forum here that too many Omega 3’s can be bad too. So I was wondering what you guys think of that? And also do you guys use a joint supplement for your dogs? I have been trying to research on the internet but having been having much luck in whether to supplement or not. He is only a year and a bit, so I don’t know if I should wait to start a joint supplement or if it is beneficial to start him on it young. Also if someone could direct me to the vaccinating thread that would be greatly appreciated(if there is one)! He is coming up to his 1 year shots and I am not sure whether to get them or not, any advice on supplementing and vaccinating are greatly appreciated, thanks so much guys!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sp464 –

I would check out Earthborn – it’s similar in price and rating to TOTW and Canidae but it’s not made by Diamond.

suztzu had a great suggestion with the canned food. Tripett is one food in particular that dogs love – I’ve never heard of a dog that turned their nose up to green tripe. Tripett is just plain canned green tripe so it’s to be used as a topper only, not a complete food. You can take some and mash it up with warm water to make a gravy and completely coat the kibble.

There’s also the option of feeding only canned or a fresh cooked food (such as Freshpet or use a Premix – such as THK’s Preference or Sojo’s) and adding your own fresh meat – dogs seem to prefer these types of foods to dry food, however it could get costly with a larger dog like a great dane.

Are you giving her anything for her joint stiffness? Wysong makes a great supplement called “Arthegic” that has boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate – all powerful natural anti-inflammatories. I use it occasionally for my senior after he’s had some heavy exercise. You may also want to give her some fish oil daily, the omega 3’s act as a natural inflammatory and seniors can benefit from additional DHA in the diet.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi HuskyMom9710 –

First of all, if your dog is 4 years old she can’t develop hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a developmental orthopedic disease that happens during puppyhood. If a dog is going to have hip dysplasia it will have it by the time it’s full grown – however, if the hip dysplasia is mild the dog may not show symptoms until later in life. There’s no foolproof way of preventing dysplasia but responsible breeding (only breeding dogs that have ofa or penn hip clearances), controlling calcium levels during growth, keeping the pup lean while it’s growing and not over exercising the dog while it’s growing can drastically decrease the odds that the dog will develop hip dysplasia.

What are you feeding your dog? A high-quality species-appropriate diet is the foundation of good health. Grains are inflammatory – so if your dog isn’t on a high protein, grain free diet currently I’d look into switching to one.

Supplementing with Omega 3’s (fish oil) can help with inflammation. Some other natural anti-inflammatories are turmeric, boswellia, yucca, bromelian and tart cherry. Digestive enzymes given on an empty stomach can help inflammation (like medizym). Glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and hydraulic acid can help to maintain and regrow deteriorating joint tissue and fluid.

Some supplements I’d recommend:
1) Wysong Arthegic for inflammation (sea cucumber, turmeric, boswellia, devil’s claw, yucca, ginger, red pepper, cetyl myristoleate) with Wysong’s Joint Complex for joint maintenance (contains collagen and msm).
2) Welly Tails Hip and Joint Rx (omega 3’s, tart cherry, glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel).
3) Vet’s Best Advanced Hip and Joint for maintenance (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, hydraulic acid) with Vet’s Best Muscle and Joint for inflammation (bromelian, boswellia, turmeric, yucca).
4) K9 Joint Strong (glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, turmeric, cetyl myristoleate) – also have a version with white willow for pain relief.

[InkedMarie]

Pug Mom Sandy: the Only Natural Pet joint supplement….I find this:

BIXBI Joint Supplement for Dogs & Cats

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Only-Natural-Pet-Super-Daily-Vitamins–Joint-Support/999066.aspx

In Clover K9 Connectin

did you mean any of those? Yes, I could use a mortar & pestal but to be honest, with three dogs and a cupboard of stuff, I’d just as soon buy one already ground/liquid!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Marie –

Welly Tails has some good supplements you might want to check out. They have a powdered joint supplement which I have used on my dogs in the past and liked – it has glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, green lipped mussel, hydraulic acid, tart cherry and omega 3’s. They also have another supplement (haven’t used this one) called senior dog vitality which has glucosamine, msm, hydraulic acid, green lipped mussel, omega 3’s, digestive enzymes and 6 strains of probiotics. I’m also a big fan of Wysong’s joint supplements – they’re sold for people but can be used for dogs too and come in powder filled capsules, you can just open it up and sprinkle it on the food. They have one called Arthegic that helps inflammation, it has boswellia, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. Their other supplement is called Joint Complex and supports the joints, cartilage and connective tissue, it contains proteoglycans, glycosaminoglycans and MSM. I think for a dog with severe arthritis the Arthegic and Joint Complex would be very effective if used together.

[pugmomsandy]

Ground psyllium or coconut fiber per meal for stool: 25# dog – 1/2 tsp, 40# – 3/4 tsp, 50# – 1 tsp. Or you can try pumpkin.

If you give both the salmon oil and coconut oil, the total fat content might affect her stool, so just watch that and just give one or the other if needed.

Dr Harvey’s has a green powder joint supplement as does Only Natural Pet. And there’s also Actiflex 4000 liquid. http://www.coxvetlab.com/products.asp 25-50 pounds: 1 tsp. daily loading dose for 5 days, ½ tsp. daily maintenance dose (Actiflex 4000). The K9 version has “beef flavor” but the horse one does not.

Are you able to grind up chicken wings or feet? There’s some good all natural joint supplement there. Or you could grind up tablets in a coffee grinder or mortar and pestal!! (sp?)

[InkedMarie]

As some of you know, we adopted a 9yr old sheltie on Saturday. She has no teeth and has been eating Grandma Lucy’s PureFormance chicken since she got here. She loves it, thankfully! Since day one, I have been giving her Mercola’s probiotics and digestive enzymes. She was on amoxicillin but got the last one yesterday morning.
These are the other supplements my other two get, in addition to the Mercola products:

apple cider vinegar
salmon oil (I use one by Vital Choice)
coconut oil (one of them gets this)
Bug Off Garlic

Her coat is disgustingly dry: the dandruff just flakes off & rains down to the floor. She is scheduled for a bath on Monday February 4th (or whatever that Monday is). What is best to use, internally, for her coat? Both the salmon and coconut oil? If yes, both daily?
Her poops are pretty soft, which I assume is from the dehydrated food. Should I add some pumpkin to her meals? With every meal? I don’t know if I should attempt to add in a dry food or not, with her having no teeth.
I think she has some hip problems. She’ll be ten in June so can use some type of a joint supplement. Any suggestions for one that is powder or liquid? No teeth, don’t want her to attempt to chew something.
She does have an appt at the holistic vets in three weeks. She has a little hair loss on her eyelids, that and the icky coat have me wondering if she has a thyroid issue but she seems to be at a good weight.
Also, when should I start adding more stuff in? I started putting the Mercola stuff in on Sunday morning.
thanks all!

[Hound Dog Mom]

cakes42257 –

Science Diet Healthy Mobility is junk. You can get the same benefit by feeding your dog a quality food and supplementing with a quality joint supplement. Glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM are all great for joint maintenance, but you may also want to consider adding a natural anti-inflammatory – such as turmeric, boswellia, yucca, tart cherry or omega 3’s.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Lab man –

I’m so sorry to hear about your dog, it’s not fun watching your best friend be in pain. I’m a little confused about your post though – you say she’s old and can’t stand on three legs, but that she doesn’t have hip dysplasia and isn’t in pain? I’m going to assume you made a typo and are looking for a joint supplement, otherwise I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.

For a senior dog experiencing arthritis I would recommend a supplement to maintain and rebuild the joints, a pain reliever and an anti-inflammatory.

I think Wysong has the most well-rounded joint supplements I’ve seen. Their “Joint Complex” has a blend of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans that will help to maintain joints, cartilage, tendons and connective tissue. Their “Arthegic” has several ingredients designed to moderate inflammation and pain including: boswellia serata, sea cucumber, turmeric, ginger, devil’s claw, yucca, red pepper and cetyl myristoleate. I have used both supplements myself and also on occasion for my senior dog. Personally if one of my dogs was experiencing severe arthritis issues I would put it on these two supplements or find other supplements with similar ingredients. Natural anti-inflammatories are a much safer option than steroids and NSAIDS that vets frequently prescribe – imo. They can be purchased here: http://www.wysonghealth.net/nsf-health-supplements.php.

I feel it would also be a good idea to start to give your dog a fish oil capsule every day – the omega 3’s in fish oil have an anti-inflammatory effect and the fish oil is a rich source of dha which senior dogs have difficulty producing.

[theBCnut]

I can just throw in a pill and mine will eat it, but one of my whole food supplements also has alfalfa in it. I actually have horses too, so sometimes it’s a handful of alfalfa in the blender with other things as part of my homemade supplement. And at one point I was giving the dogs a horse joint supplement that is sprayed on alfalfa pellets.

[Jackie B]

The vet will probably have a commercial pet cure to sell you… Maybe you should look into a supplement for your pets. Like Solid Gold Seameal (which I use for my dog’s joint, hair, and skin health) or Missing Link (just bought some but don’t have an opinion on it yet). A little extra health boost might prevent some future outbreaks!

[Shawna]

I typed a response out and then lost it — user error UGHHH

I think its a good idea to look for a higher protein food as seniors need more protein than adults and protein is shown to help with weight loss. I’d also suggest trying a potato free food. Potatoes are known to aggravate arthritic issues in some. The protein in nightshade plants, like potato, bind with the fluid in the joints which causes inflammation. This may not be an issue for your pup but better safe than sorry in my opinion. Marie made a wonderful list of grain and potato free foods. It’s in the ingredient forum if I remember correctly.

Some of the foods in Marie’s list may not be high enough in protein but if they are better for the budget you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high in good quality protein and no fat), boiled chicken, sardines packed in water, high protein canned etc as a topper to whatever kibble you chose.

My girlfriend started her senior dog on a product by Nutromax called Dosaquin. I really dislike some of the ingredients in it but she feels that the benefits are outweighing the negatives for her old lab mix. She’s seen noticable improvement.

I’ve seen a product for joints on Mercola Health Pets that looks great. I’d try this one before the Dosaquin if it were one of my pups. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I would also suggest organic turmeric and the enzyme bromelain. Both have been shown to have a positive affect on arthritic cases — both are anti-inflammatory. Turmeric is relatively inexpensive and well tolerated by most.

Also, check with your vet on the exercise. I had a girlfriend with a similar case with her lab mix. Turns out the extra exercise was doing more harm than good for her pup. Ended up having to do water workouts with him — great exercise but easier on the joints.

[Shawna]

Hi Jess,

I think you are really wise to look for a higher protein food. Senior dogs need more protein than adult dogs. I’d also like to suggest that you consider a potato free food. Nightshade plants, like potato, have been shown to aggravate some cases of arthritis. The protein in potato (called a lectin) can actually bind with the joint fluid causing inflammation in the area (may not be a problem for your furkid but better safe than sorry in my opinion).

Adding organic turmeric (the spice) to whatever food you feed can be very helpful too. Turmeric has been proven to be a powerful anti-inflammatory and quite effective in arthritic cases (needs to be organic as non-organic can be irradiated which damages the spice). The enzyme bromelain has also had positive results.

And, my girlfriend is using a product called Dasuquin by Nutromax for her elderly lab mix. She says she has seen noticable improvements while on it. I’m NOT AT ALL crazy about the ingredients in it but in her case she feels the good outweighs the bad in her senior pup..

Lastly, Mercola Healthy Pets has a joint supplement that looks really interesting. Personally, I’d try this one over Dasuquin. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/pet-joint-supplements.aspx

I’m not sure if any of the foods listed in the link below are within your budget, and amounts of protein vary, but these are all grain and white potato free. (Thanks for making the list Marie!!) /forums/topic/grain-and-potato-free-dog-foods/

If a slightly lower protein food is better on the budget, you can always add lightly cooked egg whites (high protein and no fat), sardines packed in water (good source of anti-inflammatory omega 3 and will increase protein), high protein canned foods etc as toppers to the kibble.

Check with your vet on exercising. My frined had a similar issue to yours and found out too late that the extra walking did more harm than good for her pups joints. She ended up having to use water therapy (great exercise without causing negative impact on the joints).

[Hound Dog Mom]

This is where I saw the Emu oil pet shampoo:

http://www.jefferspet.com/kalaya-emu-oil-shampoo/p/1217/

It has really good reviews, I’ve never used it though.

And this is the emu joint supplement I remembered seeing:

http://www.kalayaemuestate.com/catalog_i848622.html?catId=36316

I would be curious if anyone here has every used these products and has feedback on them. I’d be interested in trying them.