[DogFoodie]

My Sam is so very intolerant of fish, so it always seems counter-intuitive to me when people recommend fish based foods for food intolerance / allergy dogs. My dog has reacted to numerous types of fish and even fish oils. I can’t give him any fish in any form. He would have a gunky right ear within days of eating fish. Fish shows up in so many different kibbles that it’s actually tricky to find one without it.

It’s why I always “preach” keeping track of ingredients and figuring out what your pup’s individual triggers are. Until you figure out his triggers, you’re just going ’round and ’round. Triggers can be obvious, like Sam’s fish, or more obscure, like his flax and garlic.

[InkedMarie]

Steve & I drove to Newburyport, MA to go to a pet store. I was in heaven. This was the best pet store I’ve ever been in! They carried brands of foods I’ve never seen in a store, including Natures Logic. I’ve never seen any store carry Bug Off Garlic. They had quite a few brands of freeze dried, including Addiction, Stella & Chewys, K9 Cravings and Vital Essentials. Best of all was the SIX freezers! They had Stella & Chewys and Bravo which are very common here but they had some I’ve never seen: Tucker’s, Answers, Vital Essentials, rad Cat and a couple more that I can’t recall. I picked up a bag of frozen VE for Ginger as a treat.
They have another store closer to us by almost half an hour but it’s closed on Sundays. We’ll be visiting that one for sure! I dream of owning a pet food store & this is what I envision.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Michael,

I’m so glad you’ve already seen an improvement! That’s great!

The next thing I would do is start some sort of document and keep detailed notes of what you were feeding, when you were feeding it and your dog’s response to it. I’d try to keep the ingredient panels off of the bags, if possible also. This was the way I figured out my Golden’s food intolerance issues. Keep in mind, it’s not just the proteins that can cause problems. Mine is intolerant of all forms of fish, but also chickpeas, lentils, flax and garlic. Have you already compared the Orijen and Annamaet ingredients? Swollen, itchy, water eyes sounds not only miserable, but more like an allergy.

I had to laugh at your last sentence! Oh my gosh, I switch constantly. : )

I think right now for your pup, I’d find something that works for him and keep him on it for at least six weeks while the histamine clears completely out of his system.

But, when I switch, I always rotate proteins (amino acids) and binders. I believe it’s best to rotate between brands for more diversity of ingredients.

Keep us posted on how things are going!

[2nd2none]

sorry about the trouble you had, but it’s as you say, every dog is different and what works for one, often times may not work for another. there’s always that argument: the debate on garlic…. thing is, garlic, in and of itself has only a small amount of thiosulphate in it, therefore a dog would have to consume a LOT of garlic to cause such an adverse affect: anemia, damage to their liver, etc. no doubt checking CRT is essential if you’re at all concerned. (color should return to gums in 2-3 seconds when you push on them).
as with ALL things in life moderation is key. ANY thing given in excessive amounts can cause harm/damage. i’ve read dogs at 50 lbs can *safely be given 2 cloves a day so, go figure…..
all’s i can say is, as stated, if you notice a reaction, simple: stop giving it. but it’s been given for many many years, safely, so, your call….

[DogFoodie]

Hi Cheryl,

I’m so sorry for the loss of your brother.

That’s wonderful that Timber is a therapy dog! It takes a special dog to pass that test. I’m sure your brother would be proud.

Do you know what Timber was eating when he was still with your brother, and if he was having any digestive issues then?

Like C4C, I also wondered about the fecal tests. Are they testing for “everything?”

My thought would be some sort of food intolerance. Do you have a list of those foods you tried with no luck? I’d take a look at the ingredients and compare them against one another. I have a dog with food intolerance issues. Keep in mind that intolerances are not just proteins, but other ingredients too. Mine cannot eat any form of fish, chickpeas and lentil, garlic and flax.

I’d also consider trying a limited ingredient diet. If it works, keep him on it for at least six weeks until the histamine clears out of his system before rotating to another food.

[crazy4cats]

Hey Bobby dog-
Would you mind heading over to the review site’s off topic thread? I replied to Sandy about flea control. I would like your opinion as well. My sister’s dog is a mess. I printed your advice on what to do about his skin. Is think she is finally about to actually listen. She has thought that I was too extreme before. But, now, she is at her wit’s end. She has started using garlic, and a topical dose of front line or advantage. Not sure which. But they are still covered. The garlic was started too late, I’m afraid. Anyway. Probably should continue conversation on other thread. Don’t want to side line Akari’s coupon thread. Thanks!

[Bobby dog]

Aimee:
I had an old boyfriend who would do nothing but complain after I ate at my favorite restaurant. I love garlic and could not help but ask the chef to add extra to my food. He could not stand the garlic odor emanating from me and it would be an issue for at least two days after my meal. I came to realize I would rather be with the garlic than him in the end.

Losul:
I am also leery of trying high end brands with a long list of ingredients. I currently have a tight budget to follow with pet food. When I first changed Bobby’s diet I really wanted to be able to spend $80-$100 on a bag of food and $2 or $3 on canned but I just didn’t have the funds. After almost a year of researching kibbles, reading customer reviews, and reading the many common complaints customers have with high-end brands I am now content with my budget. I eventually want to make homemade meals for Bobby I just don’t have the time to research the subject in order to do it properly. Right now I am doing the next best thing IMO by adding fresh foods using the ABC diet as a guide; I am very happy with the $2.95 I spent for downloading this guide.

Naturella:
Thanks for the invite! I love a good garlicy meal. I feed garlic 3x/wk every other day or two; sometimes garlic pills when I don’t have fresh. I have been looking for all of my bookmarked pages in regards to what I researched on fresh garlic and I don’t know what file I hid them in. I did find the article to the link that Cyndi posted for you, but no additional information. There are some other links I posted in the beginning of this thread to some more info if you are interested. I also remember reading HDM and BCn’s recommendations on feeding fresh garlic on one of these threads or forum posts. Losul posted a good deal of info for you and you could always track down HDM or BCn for info from others feeding garlic. I believe BCn is absent from the forum due to family obligations so I am not sure how much spare time she has these days to catch up with DFA, but I have seen some posts from her recently. If you are worried about possible sensitivities just don’t do it. Use your best judgement as you always do for taking care of your pup!

[Naturella]

Losul and Cyndi,

Thank you both for the wonderful information! You guys are awesome and super knowledgeable as many on this forum!

I think I will just do 1/3 of a clove of garlic every other day or so for Bruno, or maybe 1/2 clove twice a week, something like that, and see how it goes. I feed kibble with THK in a thick soup-like mix, so I can easily mix crushed raw garlic in there and feed it. Hope he is not allergic and that he still eats his food. I also hope that this will just be of general help to his health and not a detriment. So we will see…

Thank you all again! 🙂

[Cyndi]

Naturella, here is an article from Dog’s Naturally about garlic:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

[losul]

C4C, Bobby dog, Thnx. I agree about getting more back to basics. Hopefully more manufactur’s will lean more that way in the future. It’s mind boggling to me how many dogs are having allergies, intolerances, etc., and how many folks have so much trouble finding foods that are agreeable, out of the hundreds of foods out there. Is shouldn’t be that way, and why do so many dogs seem to have these allergies in the first place, I think it’s unnatural. 10 years and more ago, I thought it was very rare for dogs to have allergies, now it seems to be very commonplace. (or maybe I was just in the dark back then, well I know I was in the dark, lol. ). All of the botanicals in Origen are what have kept me from trying so far. C4C, I hear ya on the funny looks!

Naturella, I hesitate to advise you how much to give your dog and whether or not to give it at all, I almost feel like it would be medical advice. For one thing there’s such a variance in the size of cloves, and another some dogs would be more sensitve than others. The health and and nutrition of your dog could also be a factor. Your dog is very small, and only about 1/3 the weight of mine. I give mine about 1 1/2 large cloves per week, they average about 4 grams each clove. It’s crushed and mixed in with 4 days worth of food. For the next 4 days batch, I leave garlic out of it, the next, garlic again, and so forth. I think I give him less than most sites advocating it advise, I would never give him so much that he has would have garlic breath to much extent, and well, if I would ever notice that he would actually begin to exude the odor from his skin, I feel that would be entirely too much and could be dangerous. If you do decide to use garlic so, just to be precautionary, start out tiny, like just a small slice of a clove, and make sure there isn’t any kind of intolerance or allergic reaction first. I wouldn’t think 1 small/medium sized clove a week, distributed in several meals would be too much for your dog. I know I wasn’t much help, sorry…. BTW, I can almost smell the food a cookin! MMmmmm garlic toast, Luv feta cheese, olive oil, and balsamic vinegar on my tomato slices!

Aimee, Wow you exuded garlic fragrances for 3 days after just eating 1 meal with some? Are you sure you didn’t take a large doggy bag home with you and indulge several times? 😀

I didn’t mean to imply that all mammals have equal susceptabilities, just that they have the same suceptibilties.

I think the papers desribing garlic use for sickle cell anemia used aged garlic extract (AGE). Many of the compounds and properties were changed by the aging or fermenting process, no? At any rate garlic and it’s many compounds have a whole lot of medicinal possibilities wouldn’t you think?

It’s hard to come by actual research on humans, it’d be very unethical to try to induce hemolytic anemia in humans. There seems to be lots of it on various mammals, cats, rats/mice, dogs, cows, horses, sheep, birds, etc. Some of what I’ve seen is merely anecdotal, such as a professor and some students informally volunteered to eat an abnormal amount of onions ( i think it was 2 medim/large, cooked, daily) for a period of 5 days, they all displayed physical signs of anemia, and upon blood testing indeed showed that to be the case.

Here is a study where the researchers where attempting to test the effects of certain native vegetables that could mitigate garlics unwanted effects on Nigerians. The actual study was done with rats, but as I said….;

“Garlic (Allium sativum) is popularly consumed in Nigeria because of its health benefit in treatment and management of several disease conditions. However, excessive intake of garlic may cause hemolytic anemia. This project sought to investigate the ability of some commonly consumed tropical green leafy vegetables—namely, Amaranthus cruentus, Baselia alba, Solanum macrocarpon, Ocimum gratissimum, and Corchorus olitorius—to prevent garlic-induced hemolytic anemia.”

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2004.7.498

———————————————-

Is this the study that brought about AVMA’s determination that garlic should not be fed to dogs?

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2000.61.1446

Objective—To determine whether dogs given garlic extract developed hemolytic anemia and to establish the hematologic characteristics induced experimentally by intragastric administration of garlic extract.

Animals—8 healthy adult mixed-breed dogs.

Procedure—4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight <b>(5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days.</b> The remaining 4 contol dogs received water instead of garlic extract. Complete blood counts were performed, and methemoglobin and erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentrations, percentage of erythrocytes with Heinz bodies, and percentage of eccentrocytes were determined before and for 30 days after administration of the first dose of garlic extract. Ultrastructural analysis of eccentrocytes was performed.

Results—Compared with initial values, erythrocyte count, Hct, and hemoglobin concentration decreased to a minimum value on days 9 to 11 in dogs given garlic extract. Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte- reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes were also detected in these dogs. However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to
dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs. (Am J Vet Res 2000;61:1446–1450)
—————

Some notes about this; At the rate I give Turbo, it would take 2 years to give my dog the equivalent of what the researchers gave these dogs all in 1 week. The second paragraph gives plenty enough to be concerned about, but “However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia”

————————————————————–
I’m amazed you would not be concerned about feeding a dog grape pomace, when as far as I know, the causitive agent of grapes/kidney failure has yet to be determined.

[Naturella]

Bobby Dog, if you’re ever in GA in the next 2 or so years, feel free to let me know, you got a hot meal from us! 😉

Also, Losul or anyone – if you have experience with feeding raw garlic to your dog, please help me out with dosage and frequency for a 13.5-lb terrier mix who plays outside and goes on long walks daily.

Thank you! 🙂

[aimee]

losal,

It isn’t that he has an intolerance or allergic reaction… he just can’t stand the smell. It makes him nauseous. Once, when out with a friend, I ate a meal with garlic in the sauce. As I recall he slept on the couch the next three nights.: )

I wouldn’t say all mammals have the same susceptibility. Cats are much more susceptible than dogs and I didn’t find information on garlic causing anemia in people. In fact when I ran the search terms anemia and garlic in pubmed I came across papers describing garlic use to treat anemia ( sickle cell) in people. But I suppose if you ate massive quantities it could ??? Do you have a link you could share describing. The difference in how garlic acts in different species has to do with the number of sulfhydryl groups in their hemoglobin. Cats have eight,, dogs four and people two.

I don’t mind a tiny bit of garlic/onion in dog food as a flavoring agent, but I’d never feed cloves of garlic to my dog. I’m unconvinced of any benefits and aware of the consequences. In regards to grape pumice, after researching it a bit, its presence in food doesn’t concern me in the least.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by aimee.

[Bobby dog]

Naturella, I want to come over for dinner.

Well said Losul and C4c; everything in moderation. I agree that everyone should be aware that any ingredient is a potential allergan for your pet. I also understand people not wanting to feed garlic to their pets; especially if your pet has experienced an allergic reaction. I also feed garlic to Bobby and fed it to my previous dog as well without incident. I used to feed it to my horses, but I did not see any results in regards to repelling flies so I stopped.

I very much agree with the idea of a simple pet food recipe! Spending 20 minutes to read a pet food label is tedious.

[Susan]

Hi, I joined a yahoo group called K9Kitchen, someone asked a question about using Garlic for their dogs & Monica Segal wrote, Garlic can cause Hemolytic Anemia, the amount that effects one dog can differ from the next……

[Naturella]

Losul, I myself was thinking of adding some crushed whole raw garlic to Bruno’s food every once in a while. How much do you think I should add and how often? Bruno is 13.5 lbs (or so) now.

P.S. My family LOVES onions and garlic, cooked or raw (especially raw, with a hot (tripe/any) soup with feta cheese and vinegar, and some rustic, crusty bread… OMMMMNOMNOM!!! But I digress… Sorry!).

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Naturella.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Naturella.

[crazy4cats]

Well said, Losul. What is funny is the more I learn about dog food, the more I lean towards more simple dry kibble without many ingredients. That way I have more control over toppers and supplements that are added. When I first started, I was looking for kibble that had everything for the cheapest price. It’s too bad that a lot of limited ingredient foods have 1/2 the stuff, but twice the price! Lol! I too, have been feeding garlic for the last couple of months without incident so far. It’s funny you brought up vampires. I always say I feed my dogs garlic to keep away parasites, mosquitoes and vampires. No one has found any humor in it so far. Just funny looks!

[losul]

Aimee, I would guess your husband has an intolerance, or even an allergy to garlic? I know some folks with those. I’m sure dogs can easily be the same.

Hehe, I admit, the first thing that came to mind was grapes, when you agreed with USA. But I wasn’t thinking whether you or your family ate them. I just thought it was ironic how you could defend a companies’ use, (who was it Hill’s or Purina?) of grape pomace in a dog food, but feel any and all garlic is unacceptable.

No, I just thought I’d ask, because virtually all mammals, including cats, dogs, rats, primates, humans, even ungulates and birds, have the same susceptibilities to the toxicities from over consumption of garlic, onions, etc. Granted humans have built more tolerance from the long history of consuming them, but they still can and do get all the side effects up to, and including oxidative stress and anemia. Yet vast numbers of people around the world still chose to consume them anyway over the ages for their medicinal properties.

Ever wonder why vampires have an intense fear of garlic? Vampires were thought to be those who have anemia, or other blood disorders- the pale skin, photosensitivity, yellow eyes, etc. They required the blood of healthy others in order to “sustain” them. A big dose of garlic would not be good news at all for the anemic vampire. Some sects and religions even weeded out the vampires amongst them, by those who would not partake.

Anyway, my stance is that dog food companies probably shouldn’t include garlic in their foods. I don’t really appreciate garlic or many other “medicinal botanicals” in many of the “higher” end foods such as sage extract, juniper berry extract. ginseng, gingko, licorice root, anjelica root, marigold, chamomile, etc. Many or all of them can cause allergic reactions for thing. They just don’t belong in dog foods, especially where someone might be feeding them 100% everyday for long periods, IMO. And one with grape pomace in it, well I would automatically reject it as completely unacceptable.

That said, I don’t take any issue with a person adding garlic to their dog’s food, as long they understand the possible allergic reactions, intolerances, or in larger quantities, toxicities, and they treat it as a controlled dosage rather than a food item. I’ve been adding potent crushed whole raw garlic to Turbo’s food at the rate of about 1 and 1/2 extra large cloves or about 6 grams/week, for probably 4 or 5 months now, and intend to keep doing so. For us, the probable benefits exceed what I perceive to be very small risk.

[aimee]

Hi losal,

My husband is very sensitive to onion and garlic so we are a garlic/onion free house. But when he is out of town…..

I also eat grapes and raisins. In case you were wondering.

[USA]

Hi Susan

I totally agree with garlic, onions, etc being harmful to dogs even in small amounts.

/forums/topic/garlic-onions-leeks/#post-48523

[Susan J]

Hi everyone –
you all don’t know me, i rarely post, but I read everything. Like Mike Sagman, i lost a dog to commercial dog food poisoning in 2007. I am also a scientist. So I have been absolutely obsessed with monitoring and choosing the best food for my gang that works for us. Recently, i wanted to reduce the amount of kibble that my dogs eat, and decided to put a dehydrated food in the rotation. We started out slow, and all three of my small dogs initially did quite well. We used it successfully in a monthly rotation twice. For the third rotation, after two months of other food, they were rotated back onto this food. WIthin 4 days everyone was sick.
One of my dogs happened to get bloodwork done and was found to be noticeably anemic. His hematocrit was down to 27 from a previous value of 48. I had the bloodwork repeated in 2 weeks of being off the food, and it is returning to normal (up to 36). The vets that saw my little guy and I have all been at a loss to explain the blood work. I have great vets that do understand good pet food and don’t push Science diet etc. But i have to say that the garlic in this food (it is very noticeable, so it is not in minute quantities) is right now the number one theory as to what caused him to go anemic amongst my vets.
This is a great dog food company, and I don’t want to name them and shame them. That is not what I intend. But i always poo-pooed the idea of a small amount of garlic as being harmful, it is in a lot of the better brands, and hey, I’m italian! What I do want to say is this: if you feed a food to your dog that contains garlic, pay attention. Check their gums, and at the first sign that something is not right, better safe than sorry – pull them off the food. Small amounts of garlic may be fine for some dogs, but some may have big issues with it. Don’t take the idea lightly, and be proactive. Just, be careful! No more garlic for us!

[USA]

Hi losul

I eat onions and garlic

[losul]

So I was wondering Aimee and U.S.A.

Do you and your families eat onions and/or garlic in any amount?

[USA]

Ladies,

I believe that the Sulfides in Garlic, Onions, Leeks, Chives, etc in ANY AMOUNT have an effect on the red blood cells of cats and dogs. I think that at a low exposure the effects are sub-clinical meaning there are no signs of toxicity. But I do believe that the red blood cells are affected at any level of consumption.

I know there is plenty of information out there to support both sides of this debate and I know that plenty of people use garlic for fleas and as a spice in their dog’s food.

I have a dog whose red blood cells are affected by any amount of garlic. She is a rare example of a dog that shows clinical signs of red blood cell damage at any level of consumption. I know she is VERY sensitive to the effects of garlic but her experience has led me down the path of believing that although most dogs are not as sensitive as her that ALL dogs red blood cells are affected by Sulfide ingestion.

So I have provided a couple of links. 1 agrees with me and 1 says that the toxicity of garlic is not affected by cooking.

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/06/the-dangers-of-onion-toxicity/

“The organosulfoxides (sulfurs) in onions, garlic, leeks and chives react with the cell membranes of the red blood cells of dogs, causing the cells to lyse (explode). Cats are even more sensitive to the lytic effects of allium (onion family) toxicosis than dogs.

It is a common myth that a small amount of onions or garlic is not harmful to dogs. In fact, many homemade dog treat recipes include garlic powder as a flavoring because dogs tend to love it so much. Dogs are more tolerant of garlic than onions, and small amounts of either often do not produce effects that are noticed.

However, I believe that any amount of garlic or onions is unacceptable, because it always causes damage on a cellular level, whether or not we notice the effects of the damage and label it “toxic.”

A small amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause a small amount of subclinical hemolysis. That is, a small amount will cause a small amount of red blood cell explosion. Dogs need their red blood cells to oxygenate their brains and other important organs.

A moderate amount of garlic or onion ingestion will probably cause your pet to feel light headed and lethargic, which may go unnoticed.

A large amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause clinical signs that are felt by the dog and noticed by the people. Signs may take several days to develop.”

Regarding cooking:

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/toxicology/a/onion-toxicity.htm

“The chemicals found in cooked, raw or dehydrated onions begin reacting with a dog’s metabolism soon after consumption, preventing the red blood cells from carrying oxygen to the body. Within a few hours, the patient becomes lethargic and has trouble breathing. Other clinical signs may include dark-colored urine or a yellowing of the gums (called icterus). The patient may also vomit up the onions or other foods consumed from the trash.”

[Bobby dog]

Here’s one more article about garlic and dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-friend-or-foe/

[Bobby dog]

Hi Alana:
I use the recipe for bone broth (or some variation) from the link that Cyndi provided on a regular basis for my dog, check it out!

As Betsy wrote many on DFA use garlic, I am one of them. In the past I have used Springtime’s Bug Off garlic for pets with no health issues. I now feed my dog fresh garlic 3x/week. As usual I run out of it before I get to the grocery store so I have garlic pills on hand to use when I don’t have fresh garlic. Since using fresh garlic or pills, Sentinel, which contains an ingredient to inhibit flea eggs from maturing, and a daily dose of apple cider vinegar this season my dog has been flea free. I have not had to use a spot on treatment this season; first time since I have had Bobby that I haven’t had to. Here’s some links to information and studies about garlic and dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/
http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

[DogFoodie]

Hi Alina,

The amount you’re talking about feeding to your pup should be no problem. There are plenty of people here who offer their dogs fresh garlic regularly or supplement with garlic capsules to keep fleas away. The amount that would cause toxicity is alarger quantity than the small amount you’re talking about. Cooking destroys the allicin in garlic and I would therefore assume the same for the onions.

[Alina S]

Hey all!

I just made a chicken broth with chicken, celery, carrots, parsnip, ginger root, 4 cloves of garlic, a small 1/4 red onion, and the white part of a leek.

I wanted to give my dog some broth and chicken, but I searched online and found that garlic, onion, and leeks are poisonous to dogs in large amounts. I was wondering if that is true even if all 3 ingredients were boiled and he would only be eating the clear broth and chicken?

I haven’t given him any yet; I just wanted to find out for sure.

Thanks!

[Harpers Mom]

I figured I would update everyone!

Harper has been on heartgaurd as her HWP, Springtime Bug Off Garlic and an essential oil spay for about a month now and I couldn’t be any happier! We have had no issues with any sort of bugs and she even seems to be itching a little less.

We have also introduced a new member into the house! We now have a 14 week old German Shorthaired Pointer, his name is Heath. He seems to be adjusting well to our crazy life so far.

[Cyndi]

Hi Betsy, I expected the same thing from the vet. I had a feeling she was going to say a nutritional deficiency. I really like the vets there, but I so wish I could find a vet close that doesn’t object to raw feeding and actually helps me out with it. Yeah, I knew I’d keep worrying too, lol! That’s just how I am. I just can’t figure out how to shut my mind off when it starts over-thinking things. Thank you!

Losul, you’re awesome. Thanks for clearing all that up and emailing Steve Brown again. I really appreciate it. I don’t know the percentages of organs in that organ mix I get, but I highly doubt there is all that much liver in it and Bailey only gets a small portion of it with a meal. I mix the beef, organs and tripe together, then I portion it up into 6oz. portions, so she’s not getting anywhere near 10% of liver with a meal. So, that makes me feel better. I don’t give that to her every morning, just probably 4 maybe 5 mornings a week. I will though, possibly switch to just ground beef or ground turkey or something when I’m using the SSLL and when I use the mix with the tripe and organs, maybe just use the Dr. Harvey’s Whole Food Multi VItamin and Mineral supplement that I’ve used in the past. The ingredients in that are: Bee Pollen, Spirulina, Lecithin, Nutritional Yeast, Garlic, Flax Seed Meal, Alfalfa Leaf, Kelp, Bilberry Leaf, Chamomile Flowers, Oat Straw, Ginkgo Leaf, Dandelion, Burdock, Thyme, Papaya Leaf, Rosemary Leaf, Peppermint Leaf, Fennel Seed, Suma, Red Clover Blossoms, Milk Thistle, Rose Hips, Yellow Dock, Licorice Root, Ginger, Foti.

Thank you again losul!

& C4C, Thank YOU!! I have no idea what I’d do without this site. Well, on second thought, without this site, my Bailey would still be eating Purina One or Pedigree probably. I am so thankful for ALL you guys and your knowledge and help and expertise and your friendship! I have real friends that I can talk to in person about stuff, but then I have my awesome DFA family and friends that I am so very thankful for when it comes to stuff like this!!

I know I’ve said it before, but thank you to EVERYONE for keeping me sane and thinking clearly (for the most part, lol!)

[DogFoodie]

For us, lentils and chickpeas are a no go. I really hate the way all these pet food companies are creating such legume heavy foods.

I’ve dealt with food intolerances with my Golden since he was a tiny pup and he’s just over two now; and I’ve finally found a food, specifically Nature’s Variety Instinct LID Duck, that he’s doing well on. It’s far from perfect, but he’s doing great on it so I’m keeping him on it for a bit in order to get him stabilized. It has just a few ingredients, and that’s what I’d recommend you try, a limited ingredient diet; ie: NVI LID or Wellness LID are both great brands to try. Orijen has so many ingredients, it would be anybody’s guess what the problem ingredient was. I know my dog has a problem with fish, fish oil, chickpeas, lentils, possibly garlic and possible flax. So, the problem ingredients aren’t always just the meat proteins.

So, a couple of thoughts, Firm Up is great – so much easier than canned pumpkin. I also added Swanson’s BioCore digestive enzymes to his meals and the difference was amazing. Try a quality LID diet and while it doesn’t have to be a totally novel protein, it just needs to be something different than what your dog has eaten in the past.

[Cyndi]

Betsy, I was thinking environmental too. She does like to lay in the grass, but she’s always done that. & she really hasn’t done that too much this year because of how hot and humid it usually is. She mostly goes out, does her business and comes right back in. & it seems we’ve gotten more than our share of rain the past couple months as well.

I guess, since she has put on some weight (I thought it was just weight she gained over the winter) maybe I better get her thyroid checked. I don’t want to miss something major while I’ve driving myself crazy going over her food intake.

You could have used the Mercola’s spray by itself. I really think it works and I do like the smell of it. Now you and I both have a big bottle of that Bug Off Garlic going to waste, lol! Bailey refused to eat it, now I just use garlic capsules.

[DogFoodie]

Here, everything is so wet. The mosquitoes are terrible. Even though it hasn’t really rained within the past week, it’s like the ground feels saturated. Yuck. That’s why the first thing I thought of also was that it had to be something environmental.

A thyroid panel would be a separate test that wouldn’t have been part of the “normal bloodwork.” You didn’t mention any other symptoms and if she doesn’t have any of those that C4C mentioned with lethargy and weight gain being two biggies, I would be less likely to think thyroid.

I had planned to use the Mercola spray in conjunction with the Springtime Bug Off Garlic; but when I gave Sam the garlic, he reacted to it almost immediately. When I couldn’t use the BOG, that threw my whole plan out the window. I ended up with Sentinel. : (

[Cyndi]

Thanks for the reply Betsy & C4C. Betsy, why did you send the Mercola stuff back? I wondered if maybe she could be allergic to something in that, but I used it last year too and Bailey was fine. The only thing I started her on recently was the garlic pills, and she was itching and shedding real bad before I started those. The premixes and stuff I’ve been using since she’s been on raw, so I don’t think it’s any of those.

I never thought it could be health related. I think I might have to get her to the vet and have that checked. I did just have blood work done on her not too long ago (when I went to see that quack “vet”), would a thyroid issue have come up on bloodwork or is there a different way they check for that?

Thanks you guys!

[DogFoodie]

Your topical pest control sounds good. Any other potential environmental allergies? Yard applications (natural, like neem oil or otherwise)? Household products; ie: carpet or floor cleaners, detergents, air fresheners? Did you get her a new bed…

You know, I was going to use the Mercola Natural Defense that you’re using, but couldn’t. I sent it back, unopened. I never smelled it. I wonder if it could be that the essential oils in that are too stimulating. ??

Her diet sounds great. Did you add any of the pre-mixes or supplements, like the garlic, shortly before the itching began?

The only health issue that comes to mind is thyroid. Is that a possibility?

[Cyndi]

Here is everything she eats: AM: Ground Beef, Ground Beef Organs and Tripe mixed, with either See Spot Live Longer or Dr. Harvey’s Veg 2 Bowl, along with either an egg, or sardines and coconut oil, a garlic pill, veggie baby food. I use Fresh Pet occasionally and give her that for breakfast every once in a while. PM: I switch it up between Rabbit grind, a chicken back or leg quarter or a turkey neck along with liver, or gizzards or heart. That’s pretty much the staple of what I give her on a weekly basis.

I have been using Mercola’s flea & tick spray & Sentry Natural Defense flea and tick topical.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 4 months ago by Cyndi.

[USA]

Hi cmeeks

You said “that’s why I buy 100% meat jerky like a lot of you guys”

I make Jerky for my dogs and for a store that sells pet food and treats. 100% meat jerky is a great treat for dogs and cats, so whenever I hear about a jerky treat for dogs I take a look.

Did you know that the Rocco and Roxie treats are NOT 100% meat? They even contain Rice Protein and Nitrites. Because of this I would not recommend them.

This is the ingredient list for their “Beef Jerky”
Beef, Rice Protein, Spices, Salt, Sugar, Garlic Powder, Sodium Nitrite,

[crazy4cats]

Losul-
Frustrating isn’t it? I feel like I am starting to turn anti vet after learning about so much on this site. But, I really don’t want that to happen! I think that panacur and garlic finally got our pups clear.

Dawn-
I forgot to mention that you can buy panacur over the counter. It was SO much cheaper to buy at Healthypets, Amazon, or even at Costco or a Kroger store if they have it.

[Debbie L]

One fact about Ivomec, or Ivermectin, it is not recommended to give it to Collies as it could be toxic to them. I don’t think I’d give it to a dog mixed with Collie either to be on the safe side.

I also give my dogs the little round odorless garlic capsules, as well as fish oil capsules. It is my belief that fleas are developing an immunity to all those chemical flea treatments, and feel that naturally treating the dog from inside out is best.

Coconut oil is said to repel fleas either rubbed on the dog or small amounts added to the food each day. Avon Skin-So-Soft is also reported to be effective against fleas.

[crazy4cats]

Dawn R.-
Yes, unfortunately, I have had experience with giardia with my two pups. I am so glad to hear that your vet recommended panacur for six days. Hopefully that will take care of it. Mine kept prescribing metronidazole which did not kill it. Finally after using panacur and some natural holistic remedies we finally got it. It is contagious, so try to keep your pup away from the others as much as possible. Most importantly pickup the poop ASAP. Clean the poop spots with hot bleach water if you can.

Some of the holistic items that I used that I believe finally rid them of it are: garlic, probiotics, DE, pumpkin seeds and high fiber foods such as shredded carrots. I need to find my notes to give you more detail and some links for you to check out. A good site to check out would be the dogs naturally magazine website. They have a search bar that is helpful. I need to get to bed, but I’ll get my notes out to hopefully get you more details tomorrow. I think fresh garlic would be a great thing to add three to four days a week right now if you are comfortable with it. You have to crush or chop it to release the allicin and let it sit for about 10 minutes first. Good luck!

[Debbie L]

Actually I have tried some chemical topical flea and tic treatments but these did not seem to be too effective. I applied them as per instructions, but I think fleas and perhaps tics too have become immune to a lot of this stuff. So far I’ve not noticed any definite signs and symptoms of tapeworms. I remember years ago when our family had some property in the deep Texas Hill Country region my dad said he picked six tics off himself in one day. He said he began taking garlic tablets and soon thereafter never got another tic. I’ve read people say they give their dog garlic (not every day) in small quantities and the dog does not have fleas. I’m a firm believer in treating from the inside out.

Back in ’09 my female Collie was aging and her immune system was down, thereby making her more susceptible to fleas. Plus, we had a lot of rain that summer and the vet said that was a factor in the heavy flea load also. I began feeding her Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover’s Soul and within about a month the fleas all but disappeared and she pretty much quit scratching. I didn’t want to use harsh chemicals due to her advanced age. As long as she ate that she was fine, but it doesn’t have the hip/joint stuff in it she needed so I had to add that. She passed in February of 2011 at the age of 14 years and 2 months. I’d try Chicken Soup for the dogs I now have but they have reduced their quantity but gone up in price.

I’ve noticed some places where the dogs have lost hair it is growing back some, so something is working. I’m always looking for ways to keep my dogs healthy and so far these two males, one given to me as a stray when he was a puppy (large mixed breed), and the other a give-a-way no one wanted (Peke-a-Chon), are doing well. Barney is the large dog and Buster the small one.

[DogFoodie]

Unfortunately, my dog with food intolerance issues reacted to Springtime’s Big Off Garlic or if be using that. I tried it and both of my ate it right up just thrown into their food. I used the granules. It’s know to help deter fleas, flies, mosquitoes, etc. Here’s a link to the product: http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

I had planned to use BOG with Mercola Natural Flea and Tick Defense: http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/natural-flea-and-tick-control/

Unfortunately, since BOG didn’t work for us, I resorted to more toxic methods and ended up with Sentinel, which does nothing to deter mosquitoes. I also have the Halo Herbal Dip that Sandy recommended to me last summer. Her little cutie s wear a few drops on a bandana.

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve been using Halo Herbal Dip (can be made into a spray) for the past two years and either feed Bug Off Garlic or Flea Free Supplement. There are also natural products out there with rose geranium it (like Sentry Natural Defense) or you can purchase rose geranium essential oil.

[Cyndi]

LOL!! BCnut I can picture it now!!

Thanks Nancy, that’s the same stuff I picked up yesterday. I put one in her food this morning and was so happy to see it was gone when she got done eating. When I was putting fresh garlic, and even the Bug Off Garlic, in her food, she either ate around it or refused to eat altogether. Glad I found something that will work now.

[DogFoodie]

LOL Cyndi!!!

@Harper’s Mom: I’m glad you’re switching from Trifexis. I was using it on my Golden. I got a knot in my stomach every time I have it to him. He would be lethargic and mope around for a good 24 to 36 hours every time he received it. I hated it. I wanted to use straight Ivermectin and Bug Off Garlic, but he has food intolerance issues and reacts to garlic. : (

If you ever have any questions about Springtime products, call them! Their customer service is great. Last time I called, I spoke with Dr. Trista, who is a Veterinary Canine Nutritionist!

[Nancy C]

I have been throwing one in the food bowl at breakfast and then sometimes at supper (during high season — summer). I’m in NC. Looking at this bottle it is WF 365 Odorless Garlic 500mg and is PINK on the label. My vet nicely chewed me out late last fall for NOT giving the Sentinel year long. I had ONLY been giving it in the warm months (May-Sept) which is what my breeder told me 25 years ago when I got my first golden. THat golden lived over 15 years! She got heart worm meds during those warm months ONLY. With this second Golden ( 10 yrs old and GREAT HEALTH) I did the same until the vet realized it last fall and told me I was PUTTING HER AT SERIOUS RISK. SHE COULD GET HEART WORMS EVEN IN JANUARY! I am not sure I believe that, however, this is an excellent vet so I started the sentinel. I HATE IT. Now that I do the Sentinel there is no reason to continue the garlic.
I have learned about a product that is NON TOXIC which works also as heartworm prevention. I know someone who I consider “very informed” and connected in high places maybe I should say — has two extraordinary dogs to whom he is devoted and he uses this non toxic stuff. The company does not advertise it for heartworms, nonetheless this individual says that it covers them and many people use it for heartworms. Here is the website: http://www.firstchoicenaturals.com/resourcearticles/parasitesbegonefrommypet.php
This individual knows such information and would NEVER trust a company unless he KNEW. His dogs are big in his life. So go and see.
I will add this: The same vet who got me BACK on the Sentinel Wagon full time also in June initiated a conversation about LEPTO VIRUS, recommending that I get the shots for both my dogs. I have been researching LEPTO VIRUS and so far as I can tell there are too many strains of it for the vaccine to cover AND there are risks in taking the vaccine. The vaccine is expensive and you start with TWO SHOTS. Also you must keep up with it annually. This is a MONEY MAKER FOR THE VETS. Lepto is not new. It was “discovered” back in the late 1800’s and my suspicion is that the vets and researchers AND BIG PHARMA have created this hype about YOU NEED THIS VACCINE!! A neighbor’s dog supposedly died from it in March but her other 2 dogs did not catch it. And I am even wondering if the diagnosis was correct. I read that sometimes it is MISdiagnosed. Bottom line: This is a subject that warrants more research and WAKEFUL OWNERS. I am interested in any other opinions.
Good luck with the Garlic. OH – my dog would just eat it up in the food. The capsule is so small that unless you have a picky eater it will disappear. Otherwise you could wrap it with cheese softened in your hand and the dog will hopefully swallow it.

[Cyndi]

Nancy C, how many of those garlic capsules do you give your dog a day? I just bought those today, because my dog has refused to eat fresh garlic and the Bug Off garlic tablets. I’m hoping she won’t notice these in her food, because they don’t have a smell. Or if any one else wants to answer this question, feel free. They are little 500mg garlic extract capsules. The dosage on the bottle says take 1 softgel twice a day. Bailey weighs about 53lbs.

[theBCnut]

There has been a study that shows it is not a good idea to switch from Milbemycin in midseason, unless you overlap and give the ivermectin at the same time for a month or so. This is because Milbemycin is less effective at killing the earlier larval stages than Ivermectin, but Ivermectin does not kill the later stages as well. That’s also why the Milbemycins are labeled to use for 3 months post season, so here in FL, you need to use both to switch even in winter, because we don’t have 3 months post season, not even 3 weeks.

For anyone thinking of getting Ivomec liquid and dosing your dog yourself. The regular liquid is 1% and even one drop of it is an overdose for most dogs, which can lead, over time, to liver failure. The sheep drench(available at Jeffers dot com among others) is 0.08% so is much easier to dose appropriately.

I use Ivomec(the sheep drench) for heartworm prevention right now. I give garlic and use an essential oil shampoo and I feed 1/2 raw. Mostly I shampoo because they rolled in something, not because of fleas.

If I do have to shampoo for fleas, I wet the dog’s head and shampoo behind the eyes all the way around. This drives any fleas back down onto the body. Then I wet the rest of the dog and shampoo the rest of him. Leaving the shampoo on, I let him go play while I do the next one, and the next one. After I have 3 soapy dogs running around the yard, I call the first one back for a rinse, this gives the nasty little fleas plenty of time to smother in a coating of shampoo. I towel dry the first and put him in the house and start the rinse on the second. That guarantees that the last dog has enough time to kill all of her fleas.

[Harpers Mom]

Thank you everyone for the replies!

I will definitely try the Bug-off garlic! I like the reviews on it and the articles they back it up with. When I previously tried garlic it was just a clove 3 times a week and not everyone feeding the dogs would remember it. So that would most likely be why it didn’t work.

Also, trifexis is milbemycin oxime for heartworm prevention, would it be okay to switch to ivermectin in the middle of mosquito season?

[NectarMom]

I use Bug-Off-Garlic from Springtime Inc and we are almost through our first bottle of it with 4 tiny dogs and so far I like it and will continue to use it. I also recommend it to my Clients at work.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Harper’s Mom,

Have you ever tried Springtime’s Bug Off Garlic? http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs

There is a ton of valuable information on the Springtime site and there are lots of folks here who have used this product with great success. You don’t have to be concerned with garlic toxicity with this product as it contains far less allicin than fresh garlic.