[Bobby dog]

You are welcome chris. Naturella, C4C, and me are pretty budget minded due to our other obligations in life. Of course Naturella just graduated and I am still a starving student. lol

[Naturella]

Bobby dog, so far I still have access to my email so I think I can keep it for a bit. I don’t use it for my resume though, so no worries there! Now if only these degrees would please land me a job, I would be so happy… LoL.

Anyway, Chris, I have Canidae PURE Sea lined up to feed Bruno. A friend of mine has fed Canidae a few times with no problems. So we will see how it goes.

Also, another idea for healthy toppers are good-quality cat food cans. Complete and balanced cat food is usually higher in protein and is fit for dogs’ consumption, it just has taurine, which cats need, and dogs can eat without issues. So I have stocked up on a bunch of Weruva cat food pouches I found on sale, Almo Nature cat food pouches, Against the Grain cat food cans, and Fussie Cat cans on top of some small Merrick dog cans and Weruva dog cans. For me half of a small can or a pouch is a topper for a meal, so a small can lasts me 2 days. A big Merrick one I got today I will stuff in hooves and Kongs and other stuffable toys because I can’t use it fast enough.

[Naturella]

Oh, and Chris… Orijen told me they won’t send me samples as you can buy their trial sizes from a few places online or in stores that carry Orijen. So if they send you some, let me know!

But I have had luck with Annamaet (samples of the GF foods and a full-size bag of treats – which are formulated almost like the foods themselves, so they are close to complete and balanced, if not that), Wysong (many samples), Canidae (a whole small bag of Pure Sea and a full-size bag of PURE treats), Dr. Tim’s (one Sample), Brothers’ Complete (bought samples from their website, they sent me double the order), Victor (bought samples from sportdogfood.com and ordered 5 of each instead of 3 (the limit), but they still sent them to me), Dr. Tim’s (sent me one sample), and I think this is it.

[chris]

I tried getting samples from Canidae last month and they told me they had none so they sent me coupons instead. I’ll try Annamaet and Wysong now.

Never thought of giving cat food as I was always in the thought of there was something different in them dogs couldn’t have. Good idea though and thanks for the info!

Oh and Bobby, Yeah I am in the same boat, so I know how that is!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by chris.

[Naturella]

Hm, weird… I actually spoke with them on the phone, come to think of it, maybe they really didn’t have any “samples” anymore, or just stopped doing that and I just lucked out… IDK…

And yeah, I didn’t know that before either about cat food. But it is supposed to be totally fine. Plus, I only use it as toppers, so I am not too worried.

[Bobby dog]

It’s fine to feed cat food to dogs. Bobby will tell you so himself (even if it’s in the cat’s bowls)! 😉 Dog food is not fine for cats because they need the added taurine that you mentioned in your earlier post.

I think Wysong makes a kibble that is for both cats and dogs.

On another note Naturella, I don’t know if you have an aversion to Evanger’s manufactured foods, but Against the Grain is run by owner of Evanger’s children and is manufactured at Evanger’s facility.

[C4D]

You can feed cat food to dogs but be careful. They often use Menadione Sodium Bisulfate complex (Vit K3) in cat foods as it’s allowed. It’s in many cat foods, including Weruva & Stella & Chewy’s Freeze Dried!

[Bobby dog]

K3 can be found in both cat and dog foods.
/choosing-dog-food/menadione-in-dog-food/

[Naturella]

Bobby Dog, yeah, the Nurture kibble by Wysong that I fed was for cats and dogs.

Bobby Dog, I didn’t know that about Against the Grain… I actually only have 3 cans of it… Is it Evanger’s cannery or dry that is bad, or both?

And what is the issue with K3?

[chris]

Naturella that link he shared explains everything. There are numerous dangers with it apparently. Though like Bobby said it is found in dog food as well. I wonder if Dogfoodadvisor should start red marking that then in dog food to let them aware.

Also did I miss something with Evangers? Are they someone to stay away from as well?

[Bobby dog]

I looked it up after I posted it. I remember recommending someone check it out because they were frustrated with their dog eating the cat’s food. lol

It’s a synthetic form of vitamin K. I believe it has to be added if the food has a certain percentage of seafood? I am not sure I’ll have to look it up in one of my textbooks. Some pet foods out there put it in all their recipes. It is possibly dangerous when administered intravenously and there is controversy over the oral use of it. You just need to read your labels. I don’t think any of the foods you mentioned contain it. You can see it listed as K3, menadione sodium bisulfate complex, menadione sodium bisulfite, or sometimes you’ll see a long name with “source of vitamin K” in parenthesis, and some other variations too. If my memory serves me correct, pretty much any food you have ever mentioned to me that you ever fed Bruno did not have it in it’s recipe, dog or cat.

Evanger’s is only a cannery although they do market a kibble under their name that is manufactured by Mid-America pets. I fed a couple of Against the Grain recipes to my cats before I researched it. Of course it was one of the foods they liked, oh well.

[DogFoodie]

I wouldn’t touch anything canned by Evangers.

Recently though, I did contact Evangers to ask how manufactured their dry diets. Brett Sher responded immediately and confirmed that Mid-America Pet Foods in Texas co-packs their dry diets. On principal, I would generally not use anything Evangers, but with my dog with an abundance of food intolerance issues, I have to consider all options.

[Bobby dog]

Google Evanger’s and you can search the FDA website too. They don’t just have issues with their pet food business, they reportedly (pending trials) have issues with stealing utilities, forcing employees to do illegal activities, and a few other unsavory activities.

K3 is a red flagged ingredient on the reviews.

[chris]

Bobby- My mistake then, I figured it wasn’t since I never seen it show up in anything I ever looked up.

About Evanger’s, that is very good to know as I actually wrote there name down for canned food, but now scratched off.

[Bobby dog]

Well that just shows you what type of foods you are researching, the better foods!!

Of course you’ll have to make your own determination about feeding Evanger’s. IMO it is too bad they have such issues because they make some affordable foods and also co-pack for some nice brands too.

Here’s the info I was remembering about K3 and seafood in pet food. This is from the 2012 edition of Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition:
“Cat foods rich in fish (> 25% fish on a dry matter basis) are currently required by states that adopt Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) guidelines (see Chapter 5) to add vitamin K3 or menadione and not the natural form vitamin K1 or phylloquinone found in foods such as green leafy vegetables. Occasionally, the safety of oral menadione supplementation is raised as a concern, but the basis of these concerns is not supported by the published literature as only parenteral delivery can be harmful (NRC 2006).”

[chris]

Yikes, yeah I just read up on the link you provided earlier and it actually explains it in there somewhat as well. Crazy how they banned it for human consumption, but yet not for animals. I never understood that kind of mentality in life. Just my opinion I guess.

[Naturella]

Ah, I didn’t see the link the first time. But I read the article now. So the Weruva cat food pouches I have do have that thing. Ugh. The Evanger’s cans do not. And the other cat foods I have don’t have it, nor do the dog Weruva pouches or cans. It does say that the big concern comes from continuous, daily consumption, and not sporadic feeding in small amounts… I have about 8 Weruva cat food pouches right now that have it. I will have to think about this one… They will be fed sporadically because I will be alternating them with small Merrick cans and the other cat food without it, and if I finish them up, I won’t buy them again… So I may still feed them… We will see.

As for the 3 Evanger’s cans (Against the Grain), ugh, they sounded so cool! With crab and seaweed and what not… Oh well, off they go…. I will stick to Almo Nature from the cat food pouches and small Merrick cans and crumbled up freeze-dried from Wysong.

[Bobby dog]

I agree, those things are crazy and most times no one can explain the logic behind those decisions well.

I have a few foods in my rotation for both my cats and dog that contain K3. I did panic about it when I first started looking into pet foods. After I researched it further it’s not an ingredient I worry too much with anymore when it’s far down on the ingredient list. I just would not want to feed a food containing it every meal for a lifetime.

Here’s a review with it highlighted:
/dog-food-reviews/purina-beyond-simply-9/

[chris]

Glad you mentioned about the cat food Naturella! From what I read about K3 I wouldn’t worry about it too much as long as like Bobby said you’re not feeding it everyday. So you should be fine with the Weruva you bought.

[Bobby dog]

Well you know what Naturella, you need to visit the cat rec thread when you come across deals on cat food. I am sure one of us can help you out with who manufactures what. lol

Are the recipes that contain K3 seafood recipes? Just curious. Most or all (can’t remember) of the Soulistic foods Weruva manufactures for Petco has K3 in all their recipes regardless of the protein. Halo has K3 in some of their kibble and canned foods too.

I would go ahead and feed the Against the Grain if he did okay on it. It’s not a huge amount your feeding him. I agree those recipes looked totally awesome when I spied them in my pet boutique. They even offered a B1G1 coupon on their site, so I went back for more when my cats liked the first few recipes I bought. I usually research a new food before I buy too. I was bummed when I found out they were co-packed at Evanger’s.

[Naturella]

Thanks, Chris and Bobby Dog! I guess I will go ahead and feed what I have then.

Bobby Dog, the Weruva cat pouches are all seafood-based, yes. And when I get through this stash, I will check out the cat food thread.

[Bobby dog]

Oooooh, good luck checking out the cat rec thread! Have you seen how long it is now? lol Anyway, you could always post a question if you don’t feel like reading it.

There is a canned Weruva seafood recipe I feed my cats every now and then that contains K3, the chicken recipes I feed don’t contain it.

[Naturella]

Thanks, Bobby Dog! I have seen, it has grown a lot! 🙂

And yeah, I may just ask a question on it later on, lol.

[Pitlove]

So speaking of the Solid Gold Green Tripe that was mentioned earlier, you guys made me want to get a couple cans for my dog tonight! so i did. he loved it of course haha

[Naturella]

Yay! Glad he loved it! What did you think of the smell?

[Pitlove]

i have a terrible sense of smell which works to my favor. didnt bother me at all lol

[Naturella]

LoL, lucky you! I would still touch it and feed it and all… But still smells real bad to me! Oh well…

[Pitlove]

ill definitely be getting it again as one of my special non-budget canned foods i get him to balance quality. i put back the can of Nature’s Variety Rabbit for a second can of tripe! saved a little money doing that too lol

[chris]

Glad he liked it Pitlove! I’m picking up a few cans this coming week and i’m sure he’ll love it. Smells don’t usually bother me either as I live on farm lands and I smell all different sorts of things on a daily basis as i’m sure you can imagine LoL…

[Pitlove]

hah ya. over the years ive tried to get used to bad smells as I want to work as an embalmer when im done with school and eventually in forensics so im quite lucky my nose is awful! I was so getting ready to get blasted by an awful smell though from everyones description haha

[chris]

Embalmer, you got some guts (ha!) to get into that sort of career choice. 😉

[Naturella]

Oh, wow, pitlove, an embalmer? That’s kind of cool! 🙂

And Chris, you live on farmlands… Can you not get fresh raw meat from it, or is it a veggie farm?

[chris]

I can get Fresh beef, but that’s about it. Most of the fields are nothing but corn fields and few to little farms actually are raising a ton of cattle. To my knowledge there is only one butcher shop that sells meats here as well, which I visited before and they only have Beef and once in a blue moon they’ll have venison but that is a rare occasion.

Would it be worth getting beef?

[Naturella]

If you can get some Raw Meaty Bones, like beef ribs, and some meat, fresh from the farm and at a good price, I’d go for it, yes. RMBs are really good for dental health and raw is really good period. Balanced raw, that is. But as an addition, it would not hurt if it is under the 10% of total meals.

[chris]

I’ve never fed him raw foods other then like frozen raw dog food rolls. So that being said I would have no idea what to do in that case. Like you’re saying I can feed him raw beef cut up once in a while? or am I mistaken. Yeah, last time I stopped in they had beef ears and shins, but I don’t recall seeing any ribs, though next time I stop in i’ll check again.

[Pitlove]

chris + naturella–
thanks! i usually either get “thats weird and gross” or “thats cool!” lol never really an inbetween reaction to my profession choice. i’ve worked in customer service for so many years i need a break from living people lol! and ive always been interested in forensics as well.

chris- if you can get fresh meats as a topper for the kibble i think that would be a great way to get some raw into Sparkys diet. And as long as the kibble is the vast majority of the meal you are safe from it being unbalanced.

I’ve tried raw meaty bones for my dog and he just licked at it and really didnt understand how to chew it lol. i might need to try again with a larger one as hes a big dog and i got him a dinky little bone just to try it out.

Naturella- with RMB’s is it safe to feed them outside even if you dont have like a porch for them to eat it on? im afraid of dirt and stuff getting into it.

[chris]

Okay so you’re both saying basically to get this straight is to buy local beef and it’s okay to cut it up and give him 10% of that with 90% kibble? I was unaware that was okay to do as I figured Raw meats could make them sick an such.

[Bobby dog]

Since you are feeding mostly commercial foods, you want to keep unbalanced foods to no more than 10% of your dogs total daily calories to avoid nutritional imbalances.

Here is a site I use to find calories and other nutritional info on food:
http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search

This is a download you might be interested in that I follow (C4C uses it too) for adding fresh foods to my dog’s diet. You can find these foods at your grocery store. Things like beef or poultry hearts, liver, sardines, eggs, and vegetables. You can make a meal of them or use them as toppers for a few meals. It provides a menu with amounts to feed according to your dogs weight and the kibble you are feeding. I add them as toppers rather than feeding in one meal. I always suggest this download to anyone interested in adding raw or lightly cooked foods to a kibble fed dog. It is an easy read with lots of info:
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DN330EBK

[chris]

Great to know! Thanks a bunch for the links.

[Naturella]

Pitlove, if I fed my RMBs in a yard, I would not be worried one bit about grass and/or soil getting on them unless I’m using some chemical or toxic pesticides. If you are not, i think grass and dirt are ok. Maybe someone else can confirm or refute that though.

As for Chris, I second Bobby Dog – adding fresh foods to kibble is pretty good. I add coconut oil (UNREFINED raw organic extra-virgin cold-pressed is ideal but as long as it’s at least unrefined it should be okay), yoghurt/kefir, raw egg, canned sardines in water, and the RMB in addition to the canned/pouches I mentioned earlier. I also use some treats and natural chews here and there.

[chris]

Yeah I understood the other things you mentioned to adding here and there to the kibble. Though when you guys mentioned about raw meat is what threw a flag up because I never knew you could do that, plus I figured that could be dangerous to do.

[Pitlove]

chris- most of the risk of salmonella is to the human not the dog, from what i’ve read. thats why when preparing any raw food you need to make sure you follow very strick cleanliness routines. raw food is what a dogs body was biologically designed to eat. many people who have switched to raw find that their dogs are far healthier and only need to go to the vet for annual checkups. this is however on an all raw diet, but adding the fresh raw helps add live, unprocessed, uncooked food back into their diet to balance out the kibble and the kibble intern provides the vitamins, minerals and antioxidants that the piece of beef doesnt have. it is far from dangerous for the dog though. its great for cats too! hell, even better for cats

[chris]

Oh, well thanks for explaining that as I had no idea. I’ll definitely be stopping at the local butcher too see what there prices are currently now.

[Anonymous]

“if I fed my RMBs in a yard, I would not be worried one bit about grass and/or soil getting on them unless I’m using some chemical or toxic pesticides. If you are not, i think grass and dirt are ok. Maybe someone else can confirm or refute that though”

Ingesting dirt can lead to roundworms. It happens.
And not all dogs digest bones well, my small breed had to go to the emergency vet, x-ray showed calcified material (ground up bone) in her stomach and colon that was causing her a significant amount of pain. Luckily it passed on it’s own, however, if I give her a bone, I have to monitor and take it away before she gets down to the nitty-gritty.

[Pitlove]

L M thanks for the info about the roundworms. was not aware of that. im always extra careful with bones as my dog is a power chewer and tends to be one of those dogs who wants to eat everything. the only thing that seems to work for him and i’ve never had any intestional problems with are elk/deer antlers

[Anonymous]

http://www.homeovet.net/dynamic/php/downloads/dog-c8470f2c75dbe4b683205c3919ee2310/dog_diet_complete.pdf
Natural Diet for Dogs: Guidelines for Optimal Nutrition

Have you seen this diet I posted before? Raw food is mentioned, and I think there are a lot of good tips.

[Anonymous]

My neighbors dog got worms from just sticking his head in rabbit holes in the backyard.
He was Frontlined and on heartworm pills…which is supposed to prevent.

PS: He probably nibbled on rabbit feces, it looks just like kibble.

[Pitlove]

I probably have seen it but I just read it now. looks really really interesting.

and wow about the rabbit holes…we dont have many around here, but we have enough to get my dog in trouble. gotta be extra careful now.

[chris]

Surprisingly I live on farm lands and in the woods as well and my dog runs my property everyday, and I check him every night for ticks, flees, and also worms when he goes to the bathroom and have yet too ever have any problems. *Crosses fingers*

That link you shared LM is very interesting and I have it now saved on bookmarks for later use.

Speaking of raw foods again…see I would love to try it for him, however, I am pretty scared to try it. Reason being is because, yes we have a local butcher that sells meat right off his farm, but if I go in and ask if it’s organically grass fead and he says yes and I take his word for it and feed it raw to my dog. There’s always that chance of him lieing. Though, I go hunting, and I have several frozen bags of Venison in the freezer right now that I could possibly get out and feed him some of that. Do you guys think Venison would be a good choice of raw? I know it’s listed in that link LM gave, but figured to ask you guys your opinion on that.

[Naturella]

LM, thanks for the info! Yeah, Bruno is on a roundworm preventive pill, and I will monitor his stool even when one day we have a yard, but I would feed him raw on the grass. But good to know!

Also, he digests bones well, but it essential for every pet owner to monitor their pet while chewing on chew toys, natural or artificial, or consuming an RMB. So yes, if the dog is having issues, then they should be given something else, but it is a good thing to try as it has many benefits for their health.

Chris, as for the venison, I would be just fine giving it raw. Also, you can even feed grocery store (human grade) meat. Organic and grass-fed is best for humans and dogs, but the “regular” grocery store one is OK too. So I would be pretty comfortable with the farm-fresh meat from your butcher, but that’s me. Just watch your dog, his stool, and go from there.

[Author]

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