NutriSource Grain Free (Dry)

Also if he has issues with chicken you would want to stick with acana or do the nutrisource pure vita lines. All nutrisource contains some chicken, their pure vita grain free is completely chicken free and there is a turkey, salmon, or bison and i do remember the bison having the best calcium levels for larger dogs, the turkey and salmon were fairly high.

I have an EnglishBulldog and like they’re reputation he does have yeast/skin issues. Anyone try NutraSourse for they’re EBG. I feed my dog Royal Canin for bulldog.for now would like to improve his diet

You could try digest enzymes and/or yucca.

Is it staining all of their fur, or just the ones that have allergies? Fur staining can be a sign that the food does not work for them and/or a sign of chewing.

I ended up going with one from the health food store.

My puppy had eye drainage, red hot skin, itchiness, ear gunk, loose stools, and once he had pustules pop up on his skin. The way I knew it was detox rather than a real problem was that he never started to act like he felt bad again and each symptom only lasted a couple days and was gone again. He would show up with something different every couple weeks, but he never acted like he felt bad once he started getting better. You might want to add a teaspoon or two of coconut oil to his food each day.

Yeah, people tend to horribly overfeed labs. It’s best to keep them lean while they are still growing. And lean for the rest of their life.
The G is in anything that is hydrolyzed, natural flavorings, artificial flavor, yeast products, citric acid, broth, and a bunch more things that I can’t think of.
Chicken is a really common allergen. I have one that can’t handle chicken in kibble, but can handle raw or lightly cooked chicken. Actually it is even stranger than that, he can handle chicken in one particular kibble.

Betsy,

he is a lab, little over 7 months old and he is still growing daily, at least for me. So I dont know, maybe the calcium is not a problem now?

Thanks Patty,
I didnt give him seacure for 2 days now, so I think I will follow your advise and will go back to it to check how he will do on it over week or two. I hope its only “flushing” since he started to take good probiotics in the same time.

The seacure shouldn’t cause allergies, but it does have free glutamic acid(the G in MSG) in it, and some dogs are sensitive/intolerant to it. Also eye gunk can be a sign that the dog is flushing something out of its system, otherwise known as detox, which is a good thing. I don’t know of any way to tell you what it might be other that to say watch and see how your dog does. If it’s a free glutamic acid problem, you will start to see other things too. If it’s detox, he will continue to feel better and better with minor setbacks here and there, lasting a couple days.

Hi,

Im thinking about switching my lab puppy to Nutrisource grain free (from Acana). Im looking for info about calcium levels in ther lines, there is nothing about it on their website, my store doesnt carry it so i would have to order in order to see if there is calcium levels on packages, and im emailing with the company, but probably by mistake i got their grain inclusive analysis. And what about chicken flavor if my dog has problems with chicken??

And thank you guys for your big-big help. You suggested that loose stools may come from too much excercise. I was sceptical
about this, but had no other choice like to do it: at first at the dog park dogs knock me down so i broke my wrist, and second my pup got neutered so we are stuck in the house and backyard for now.. And after we cut down off leash and play time he is pooping like normal dog finally!! And maybe the right probiotics helped too, i got mercola as you suggested.
One more question: I bought Seacure for my dog and he doesnt well on it. Ugly stuff comes out of his eyes (like after him having a chicken). Is the intolerance to the white fish in seacure possible? I thought its alredy broke down so … And I didnt know that My dog could have any other problems thtat chicken. He is currently on acana pacifica which contains white fish as ~ fourth ingredient.

Thank you all who responded to my pleas for info on this dog food!! Appreciate it greatly! We have an 8yr old puggle who is constantly scratching/licking and so we are going grain free to see if allergies are a cause. But he also has weight issues. The pug in him is very dominate!

My guy does fantastically on Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb whenever it comes around in the rotation..I’ve always considered it a “hidden gem” of a food, and a fantastic value! The other Nutrisource Grain Free varieties are either too low in protein for my liking or have chicken (which my guy is allergic to), so the Lamb is the only one I feed. I would highly recommend trying it. Hope this helps!

I was hoping to get more opinions on the above rated dog food, but it seems I’ve stumbled into the vaccines section! Seriously, I’ve spent alot a time scrolling through a lot of these posts and its been a waste

Note – Certain Vaccinations are required if you ever have to board your pet! You can’t always avoid all of them. Dogs are living longer than they ever have. Do your best to keep your companion healthy, but remember that you ARE doing your best. Don’t be too hard on yourself!

Unfortunately, I think I’m missing that mechanism too!

I was filling their food container (holds ~12 lbs) the other day while it was sitting on the floor and one of my beagles walked right up and started eating out of the bin. She’d have gone straight to the bottom if I’d let her!

I had a beagle eat a 25 lbs box of dog biscuits once. He was a 24 lbs beagle before he started. He looked like he had eaten a whole watermelon. Fortunately for him, not so much for me, he vomitted everywhere on his own. I fasted him for a couple days, which he didn’t like at all, but he never showed any ill effects from it.

What do you recommend getting and not to get?? As of now I think I’m just going to go with rabbies, as my dog is on his second year shots.

Yes, probably wishful thinking. A little off topic, but when my sister’s lab was young, she came home to a swollen up looking sausage of a pup. His belly seemed to be getting bigger before her eyes. She took him to vet for tests and X-rays. He was totally bloated with dry food. He had to stay all night. I think they had him throw up most of it. They estimated that he ate about 25 pounds of food. Needless to say his food Is now in a container with a screw-on type lid. A little funny now, but scary at the time!

Yes, I hope it works out for my dogs. It’s a little cheaper than the blue I was feeding and I can feed them a little less. Win-win. I just hope the boys don’t get mad at me for feeding less. They are true labs. They think they are always hungry. Although, this food is also a little higher in fat so hopefully they will feel a little fuller. Probably just wishful thinking

Hi All-
I just brought home a bag of Nutrisource G/F Lamb. I was checking out the calories on the bag. It states that it has 506 kcal per cup. I’m assuming that kcal’s are the same as regular old calories? That seems really high to me compared to other foods I’ve fed. Any thoughts? Has anyone else tried this food?

I feed my German Shepherd the Heartland Select. My parents’ 5-month old GSD is also fed the same. I’ve never seen dogs flip out about dry kibble like they do about this food. As soon as I go to the bag of food, my dog starts jumping up and down, spinning around, and just going all around crazy. I can even use the food as treats for training, she loves it so much. And, Heidi, I do not have the same problem you’re having. She poops twice daily, once in the morning right before she eats, and once at night right before she eats. There is at least 6 hours after eating before she poops, and it’s always solid. However, she does seem to always want more, but not as if she’s not satisfied, it’s more because it’s like a treat to her. I think she’d eat the entire bag if I let her.

 To be honest, Shawna, in a perfect world where I had the time, the money and more importantly, the resources to feed a home prepared diet, I would probably do that. BUT, we have literally crapped in our own food sources to the point that I don’t believe there is any healthy meat out there but possibly grass fed organic beef and organically raised other meats. I can rarely afford those for myself except in a limited way.   Chickens are fed arsenic based medications, cattle are dumped on feedlots and stuffed with [probably GM] corn and antibiotics (neither of which are natural diet for cows), there’s salmonella, e-coli and listeria almost weekly.  Vegetables are coated with layer upon layer of pesticides, and who knows what other kinds of trash and genetic crap has crept into our food system.  I just read an article on farms in area where there is shale fracking going on, groundwater is poisoned, cattle are dying and their tails are just falling off, and humans are getting extremely sick. Some farmers won’t sell their cows because they know they’re sick, other farmers are selling their herds. Those animals are making their way into the food chain. People are already starting to ask local farmers “where did that food come from”, because no one wants any food from where fracking is going on.  If I can’t be sure of the source, I won’t buy it for me or my dog.  It’s becoming more and more difficult to find anything healthy, for humans or animals.

PS — ever wonder why you would have to “prepare” for a colonoscopy?

From Harvard Health website

“You’ll need to stop eating solid foods the day before the colonoscopy, and starting the evening before the procedure, you must take a substance that triggers bowel-clearing diarrhea.”  http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/preparing-for-a-colonoscopy.shtml

Fiber is supposed to slow the digestive system… I don’t think it is the fiber that is the issue but rather the lectins. I have an issue with the lectins in dairy. Dairy lectin (called caseine) causes the same reaction in me as you are seeing in your boy. Dairy also has no fiber.

An yeah, I agree.. Most processed foods have pea in them. I raw feed—no peas, potatoes, grains etc. Just species appropriate foods in species appropriate amounts. Have you thought of that or home cooking?

 Well, like I said, just try to find a food without peas.  Next to impossible. I was in the feed store today fror canned food, and found ONE, Merrick’s Bangers and Mash that didn’t have peas.  Even Greenies now have pea products.   The GF lamb has 3 pea products, 2, 4, 6 on the ingredient list. That’s a lot of peas.  Has anyone done a long term study on the safety/nutritional availability of pea products in dog food? How is a dog supposed to absorb any nutrients if the poop is moving through so fast from all that fiber??  I’m not happy with this trend. Less meat, more  sub par peas, and no break on the price for cheaping out on the meat either.

Mucoid plaque is a term used by many holistic doctors and researchers to describe the uniform rubbery layers of mucous and rotting food which compact themselves year after year along the entire length of the digestive tract. (Anderson)

In his fascinating book, Cleanse and Purify, Dr. Richard Anderson cites his encounter with one medical doctor who did not want to be identified. This doctor, after hearing Anderson’s lecture about mucoid plaque and expanded toxic colons, told the audience:
“I have spent twelve years working in the field of post-mortem diagnosis. I have seen many thousands of dissected cadavers. What Rich is telling you is the absolute truth. Everybody has it in there. We have a way of attaching a hose to the upper intestines and with the aid of powerful chemicals, we literally blow the stuff right out of the intestines. I have seen the heavy ‘beer belly’ and so called fat people lose all that bulk in five minutes. It wasn’t fat. It was the mucoid layer that Rich was talking about. and in that filthy substance we see all sorts of worms, bacteria, fungi, and many unidentifiable things. It is almost unbelievable that people can live with that filth in them. All these people were dead of course, and it wasn’t hard to see why.”
(Anderson p2-46)

Here’s how gluten -the Latin for glue (wheat gluten is the base for
Elmer’s Glue) binds its gluey self to the mucosal lining, adding to mucosal plaques…

“Wheat gliadin, which causes coeliac disease, contains a lectin like substance that binds to human intestinal mucosa (Kolberg and Sollid, 1985) and this has been debated as the “coeliac disease toxin” for over 30years (Weiser and Douglas, 1976).”http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=pjn.2009.293.303

“…This is the explanation typically given for the body’s reflexive formation of mucous following exposure to certain highly allergenic or potentially toxic foods, …” The dark Side of Wheat, Sayer Ji http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/dark-side-wheat-new-perspectives-celiac-disease-wheat-intolerance-sayer-ji

More mucus & binding to the mucosa, hmmmmmm? Why look, here’s more!

“WGA lectin is an exceptionally tough adversary as it is formed by the same disulfide bonds that make vulcanized rubber and human hair so strong, flexible and durable. Like man-made pesticides, lectins are extremely small, resistant to break-down by living systems, and tend to accumulate and become incorporated into tissues where they interfere with normal biological processes. Indeed, WGA lectin is so powerful as an insecticide that biotech firms have used recombinant DNA technology to create genetically modified WGA-enhanced plants. We can only hope that these virtually unregulated biotech companies, who are in the business of playing God with the genetic infrastructure of Life, will realize the potential harm to humans that such genetic modifications can cause.

Lectins are sugar-binding proteins, and through thousands of years of selectively breeding wheat for increasingly larger quantities of protein, the concentration of WGA lectin has increased proportionately. This, no doubt, has contributed to wheat’s global dominance as one of the world’s favored monocultures, offering additional “built-in” pest resistance. The word lectin comes from the same etymological root as the word select, and literally means “to choose.” Lectins are designed “to choose” specific carbohydrates that project off the surface of cells and upon which they attach. In the case of WGA the two glycoproteins it selects for, in order of greatest affinity, are N-Acetyl Glucosamine and N-Acetylneuraminic acid (sialic acid).

WGA is Nature’s ingenious solution for protecting the wheat plant from the entire gamut of its natural enemies. Fungi have cell walls composed of a polymer of N-Acetylglucosamine. The cellular walls of bacteria are made from a layered structure called the peptidoglycan, a biopolymer of N-Acetylglucosamine. N-acetylglucosamine is the basic unit of the biopolymer chitin, which forms the outer coverings of insects and crustaceans (shrimp, crab, etc.). All animals, including worms, fish, birds and humans, use N-Acetyglucosamine as a foundational substance for building the various tissues in their bodies, including the bones. The production of cartilage, tendons, and joints depend on the structural integrity of N-Acetylglucosamine. The mucous known as the glycocalyx, or literally, “sugar coat” is secreted in humans by the epithelial cells which line all the mucous membranes, from nasal cavities to the top to the bottom of the alimentary tube, as well as the protective and slippery lining of our blood vessels. The glycocalyx is composed largely of N-Acetylglucosamine and N-Acetylneuraminic acid (also known as sialic acid), with carbohydrate end of N-Acetylneuraminic acid of this protective glycoprotein forming the terminal sugar that is exposed to the contents of both the gut and the arterial lumen (opening). WGA’s unique binding specificity to these exact two glycoproteins is not accidental. Nature has designed WGA perfectly to attach to, disrupt, and gain entry through these mucosal surfaces.” Opening Pandora’s Breadbox, Sayer Ji , http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/opening-pandoras-bread-box-critical-role-wheat-lectin-human-disease

Mucoid plaques are not simple, they are complex. But gluten grains definitely add to the problem. While this isn’t a cited paper, it gives a good aymans overview,

“Upon seeing via the microscope at 1500X magnification, the Leaky Gut Syndrome caused by a history of overuse of antibiotics and chemicals, we see before our eyes red flags that may not be exactly CD, but, rather pre-cursors to it or, definitely, other chronic-intestinal (reversible) problems. The symptoms viewed include; Parasites (infection) Irritable Bowel Syndrome (infection/inflammation) IBS (infection/inflammation); Colitis (inflammation), Diverticulitis (infection/inflammation) precursors to Diabetes and Heart Disease including last but not least, painful stomach cramps including intermittent constipation and/or diarrhea. The patient/client may have already been given a diagnosis of Crohn’s Disease or Celiac Disease to name only one of the two “labels”. The inflammation (Leaky Gut Syndrome) within the intestines and colon (remember, we have 25 feet that includes the ascending, transverse and descending colon). There’s a lot of room for those travelers called parasites to add to the larger picture of a very unhealthy colon and mucous that builds up over a period of time where parasites make their homes, and, eventually, the build up of Mucoid Plaque due to the unknowing hazards slowing sneaking/building up due to a choice of a very unhealthy diet in sugar and lack of; Fiber; (i.e., psyllium husk found in Metamucil), Parasite Tincture; Enzymes, Probiotics, anti-inflammatory anti-oxidants – LSI’s OPC-165™; including the anti-inflammatory enzymes called Immuzyme®. The worst case scenario is that some healthcare professional just give it “a label”, and, this can lead in most cases to a misdiagnosis thereby, prescribing over and over again pharmaceuticals which only “band-aid” the problem. It may relieve temporarily, but, it begins “the Hamster Syndrome” and creating over a period of time more illness(es). Getting to the overgrowth of C-albicans (yeast) and systemic candidiasis will be the challenge but, definitely reversing the problems! Remember, you didn’t get here overnight and just think where it began? For some it can take up to 6 months to reverse, while others, only 2 to 4 months. Everyone heals differently according to their metabolism and commitment to reaching their goal. Only the individual can make this happen. One bad meal means working harder for the next upcoming week(s)!”
Livestrong. Com

Mucoid plaque is a term used by many holistic doctors and researchers to describe the uniform rubbery layers of mucous and rotting food which compact themselves year after year along the entire length of the digestive tract. (Anderson)

In his fascinating book, Cleanse and Purify, Dr. Richard Anderson cites his encounter with one medical doctor who did not want to be identified. This doctor, after hearing Anderson’s lecture about mucoid plaque and expanded toxic colons, told the audience:
“I have spent twelve years working in the field of post-mortem diagnosis. I have seen many thousands of dissected cadavers. What Rich is telling you is the absolute truth. Everybody has it in there. We have a way of attaching a hose to the upper intestines and with the aid of powerful chemicals, we literally blow the stuff right out of the intestines. I have seen the heavy ‘beer belly’ and so called fat people lose all that bulk in five minutes. It wasn’t fat. It was the mucoid layer that Rich was talking about. and in that filthy substance we see all sorts of worms, bacteria, fungi, and many unidentifiable things. It is almost unbelievable that people can live with that filth in them. All these people were dead of course, and it wasn’t hard to see why.”
(Anderson p2-46)

Here’s how gluten -the Latin for glue (wheat gluten is the base for Elmer’s Glue) binds its gluey self to the mucosal lining, adding to mucosal plaques…

“Wheat gliadin, which causes coeliac disease, contains a lectin like substance that binds to human intestinal mucosa (Kolberg and Sollid, 1985) and this has been debated as the “coeliac disease toxin” for over 30years (Weiser and Douglas, 1976).”http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=pjn.2009.293.303

“…This is the explanation typically given for the body’s reflexive formation of mucous following exposure to certain highly allergenic or potentially toxic foods, …” The dark Side of Wheat, Sayer Ji http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/dark-side-wheat-new-perspectives-celiac-disease-wheat-intolerance-sayer-ji

More mucus & binding to the mucosa, sounds like things are getting congested in there! Here’s more…

“WGA lectin is an exceptionally tough adversary as it is formed by the same disulfide bonds that make vulcanized rubber and human hair so strong, flexible and durable. Like man-made pesticides, lectins are extremely small, resistant to break-down by living systems, and tend to accumulate and become incorporated into tissues where they interfere with normal biological processes. Indeed, WGA lectin is so powerful as an insecticide that biotech firms have used recombinant DNA technology to create genetically modified WGA-enhanced plants. We can only hope that these virtually unregulated biotech companies, who are in the business of playing God with the genetic infrastructure of Life, will realize the potential harm to humans that such genetic modifications can cause.

Lectins are sugar-binding proteins, and through thousands of years of selectively breeding wheat for increasingly larger quantities of protein, the concentration of WGA lectin has increased proportionately. This, no doubt, has contributed to wheat’s global dominance as one of the world’s favored monocultures, offering additional “built-in” pest resistance. The word lectin comes from the same etymological root as the word select, and literally means “to choose.” Lectins are designed “to choose” specific carbohydrates that project off the surface of cells and upon which they attach. In the case of WGA the two glycoproteins it selects for, in order of greatest affinity, are N-Acetyl Glucosamine and N-Acetylneuraminic acid (sialic acid).

WGA is Nature’s ingenious solution for protecting the wheat plant from the entire gamut of its natural enemies. Fungi have cell walls composed of a polymer of N-Acetylglucosamine. The cellular walls of bacteria are made from a layered structure called the peptidoglycan, a biopolymer of N-Acetylglucosamine. N-acetylglucosamine is the basic unit of the biopolymer chitin, which forms the outer coverings of insects and crustaceans (shrimp, crab, etc.). All animals, including worms, fish, birds and humans, use N-Acetyglucosamine as a foundational substance for building the various tissues in their bodies, including the bones. The production of cartilage, tendons, and joints depend on the structural integrity of N-Acetylglucosamine. The mucous known as the glycocalyx, or literally, “sugar coat” is secreted in humans by the epithelial cells which line all the mucous membranes, from nasal cavities to the top to the bottom of the alimentary tube, as well as the protective and slippery lining of our blood vessels. The glycocalyx is composed largely of N-Acetylglucosamine and N-Acetylneuraminic acid (also known as sialic acid), with carbohydrate end of N-Acetylneuraminic acid of this protective glycoprotein forming the terminal sugar that is exposed to the contents of both the gut and the arterial lumen (opening). WGA’s unique binding specificity to these exact two glycoproteins is not accidental. Nature has designed WGA perfectly to attach to, disrupt, and gain entry through these mucosal surfaces.” Opening Pandora’s Breadbox, Sayer Ji , http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/opening-pandoras-bread-box-critical-role-wheat-lectin-human-disease

Mucoid plaques are not simple, they are complex. But gluten grains definitely add to the problem. While this isn’t a cited paper, it gives a good layman’s overview,

“Upon seeing via the microscope at 1500X magnification, the Leaky Gut Syndrome caused by a history of overuse of antibiotics and chemicals, we see before our eyes red flags that may not be exactly CD, but, rather pre-cursors to it or, definitely, other chronic-intestinal (reversible) problems. The symptoms viewed include; Parasites (infection) Irritable Bowel Syndrome (infection/inflammation) IBS (infection/inflammation); Colitis (inflammation), Diverticulitis (infection/inflammation) precursors to Diabetes and Heart Disease including last but not least, painful stomach cramps including intermittent constipation and/or diarrhea. The patient/client may have already been given a diagnosis of Crohn’s Disease or Celiac Disease to name only one of the two “labels”. The inflammation (Leaky Gut Syndrome) within the intestines and colon (remember, we have 25 feet that includes the ascending, transverse and descending colon). There’s a lot of room for those travelers called parasites to add to the larger picture of a very unhealthy colon and mucous that builds up over a period of time where parasites make their homes, and, eventually, the build up of Mucoid Plaque due to the unknowing hazards slowing sneaking/building up due to a choice of a very unhealthy diet in sugar and lack of; Fiber; (i.e., psyllium husk found in Metamucil), Parasite Tincture; Enzymes, Probiotics, anti-inflammatory anti-oxidants – LSI’s OPC-165™; including the anti-inflammatory enzymes called Immuzyme®. The worst case scenario is that some healthcare professional just give it “a label”, and, this can lead in most cases to a misdiagnosis thereby, prescribing over and over again pharmaceuticals which only “band-aid” the problem. It may relieve temporarily, but, it begins “the Hamster Syndrome” and creating over a period of time more illness(es). Getting to the overgrowth of C-albicans (yeast) and systemic candidiasis will be the challenge but, definitely reversing the problems! Remember, you didn’t get here overnight and just think where it began? For some it can take up to 6 months to reverse, while others, only 2 to 4 months. Everyone heals differently according to their metabolism and commitment to reaching their goal. Only the individual can make this happen. One bad meal means working harder for the next upcoming week(s)!”
Livestrong. Com

Heidi,
In people that eat highly processed grain inclusive diets, the intestines are coated with a thick glue (from gluten grains like corn & wheat.) Lots of unhealthy stuff becomes trapped in this biofilm, including undigested food, parasites, and pockets of bad bacteria. In people it can be tens of pounds. Since Dogs, pigs & people have similar digestive systems its not incongruent to assume it happens in dogs. What happens when you (or your dog) switch up to a healthier diet is that the biofilm begins to break down, and the accumulated matter begins to be expelled. So yes, you will see a lot more poo, than the amount you’re feeding. You might also experience bouts of horrific gas. Endure it, he’s cleansing. Probiotics will help. Raw apple cider vinegar will help cut the glue and speed the expelling. You want that because then he’ll receive the nutrients from the food your feeding (with biofilm its the bacteria that gets the lion’s share of the nutrients). With a clogged up gut, you could feed him a ton and he could still be virtually starving to death. Eventually, he’ll want less.

I feel your pain. My brittany came to me on Nutro Natural, has been on a variety of grainfree and grain inclusive and she could easily poop six times a day. I switched her to Brothers Complete and then it was 2-3 times a day

It just dawned on me that the fact that he’s pooping most of his food out would explain why he’s not feeling full for as long because there’s nothing left in his tummy to keep him full! Hopefully he’s drinking enough to refill what he’s losing by pooping so much/often? Definitely could be the peas..the fiber is higher than a lot of food, that’s for sure! How long after you feed him is he going out to poop? I find that with some foods, there’ll be a lot more volume and it’ll be less firm if I take him outside less than 30 mins after he’s eaten (I live in a condo). If I wait a little longer (45 mins or so) it’s much firmer, smaller, and less volume. Anyway, just some thoughts..

Heidi – actually my guy had the complete opposite reaction to Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb! His poops were the smallest of any food he’s been on (he’s 27lbs), nicely firm, and there was no increase in frequency (2-3 times per day is his norm). He also never seemed hungry on it (and he LOVED this food, probably more than any food he’s had so far). Perhaps try feeding your guy less, using canned food as a topper, and/or supplementing with probiotics/enzymes? Every dog is different, though, so perhaps it’s just not one that works for him *shrug*

Hi Rebecca,

I’m a fan of Nutrisource products, also. I’m curious though, why aren’t you using Nutrisource now – is it because of the Calcium level? There are some Nutrisource formulas that have acceptable Calcium levels for large/giant breeds.

Come to think of it, Nutrisource emailed me detailed guaranteed analysis information, but they attached a spreadsheet to the email and I’m not sure how to attach it to a post here. You can send me an email at Betsy10360@aol.com, and I’d be happy to forward their email to you. Just put Nutrisource in the subject line.

This food has been highly recommended to me by my pet food supplier for my Great Pyrenees when we switch him to adult food after 16 months; something I find necessary to point out is, this is a grain free food which is wonderful, and the protein and carbohydrate balance necessary in a food really depends on your dog breed.  You cannot knock a food for all breeds because of its high carb ratio.  Some breeds do best on a higher carb diet, and for that to be provided in a grain free formula is really a treat.  And with NutriSource, the amount of food in the daily feeding is much less than other brands would require for proper calorie intake, because the food is more efficient.  Less intake is needed to get the proper nutrition and calories, less waste from the dog because the food is not full of filler, and so also, firmer waste.  At 160 pounds, which is supposed to be top weight for our Great Pyr, the recommended daily feed amount for the large breed formulas is 4-4.5 cups… that’s adult feeding. In Holistic Select Giant Breed Puppy, we have to feed him 7-7.5 cups just for 90-100 pounds, daily, because it is grain based.  Another pet store we use from time to time, that also provides above average foods, pushes FROMM on us no matter what the breed, but though a 33 lb bag of large/giant breed food from FROMM Gold is around $44.99 where we shop, we would need two bags instead of one, because the recommended daily feed amount for 160 lb dog is 9+ cups a day. Not worth the savings.  So to me, for our purposes, this is a very good food option, regardless of the 48% carb ratio.  Our dog needs the carbs, but thankfully we can get them to him without grains and fillers.  So just thought I would throw that out there.  Some are a little too black and white about these foods, when there really is a grey area of what you need for your dog.  Not all dog foods, though rated vary highly, are right for all dogs.  Depends on your breed and their need. We love Acana, think it is one of the best foods out there and give it to our cat, but we fear that the carb ratio in Acana is not quite high enough, even in their large breed formulas.  Which is sad because Acana ingredients really and the care they take in making their food is really top notch.

The Lamb Meal one and the Chicken one are both higher protein and higher fat, and thus lower carbs, than the one listed here.  I seem to remember something about 43% carbs when the chicken one was used here as the model (the yellow part).  The “Select” ones are lower protein and lower fat, thus higher calories. Kinda wish Mike had kept the original review up here, as it reflected better on the brand (it was before the Heartland Select and Seafood Select came out). 

probably has something to do with the first two ingredients being full moisture meats which would be greatly reduced in volume and weight when dried and the peas, pea flour, pea starch weigh much less but consume 3 to 4 times the volume than the first three ingredients combined making the non-meat protein the major protein source. not the best protein for dogs.

Are you feeding the Seafood Select? That’s salmon-based. There is no specific salmon formula on the NutriSource website that I can see.

I finally found a dry dog food that my fussy Toy Fox Terrier would eat and actually gain some weight from!  I have 3, two are actually, pigs, I think…LOL  Anyway the one girl has always been so skinny.  She is a very fussy eater, and I brought her several of the better brands, only to have her turn her nose up at them and go try and eat my larger dogs Purina dog chow!    I got some samples of the Nutri Source, and she is eating it and has gained weight!!!  Yeah!!  She is no longer a walking skeleton, she looks great!  Not as fat as my other two piggies, but fat for her.  She now has good flesh over her bones!!  I would highly recommend this dog food.  I use the Chicken.    Now if I could get some weight off my little male…he wants to eat everything all the time!!!  LOL

 I’m sure the peas outweigh all the meat meals. I fed this to my dog for about a month. I can’t believe the weight it started to put on her…not in a good way either. We are now trying Nature’s Variety, hopefully it will get her back to how she looked before eating all peas with Nutrisource.

Overvaccination is a huge problem!

You are not protecting your dog more by giving more shots. A
dog is either immune or he’s not and piling up shots on top of each other is
not causing them to be more immune and is detrimental to the dog’s immune
system. Rabies shots cause more physical, mental, and behavioral problems in
dogs than any of the other vaccines.

Every 3 years is more than satisfactory and there is nothing
built into the bottle of vaccine that will cause it to stop working after 3
years and a day. There has never been any tests that show that dogs ever loose
their immunity to rabies once they have the shot. There IS evidence that the
vaccine is 100% effective after 7.5 years. 10 year tests are underway right now
as we speak.

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

“Vaccines, in contrast to virtually all veterinary pharmaceuticals, are
prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight.” I have
always been shocked that a Chihuahua
puppy and an adult Great Dane are given the same dose shot: 1 mL. They get the
same volume of virus or bacteria plus the same volume of adjuvants
(boosting agents like aluminum), preservatives (like mercury), antibiotics,
stabilizers and foreign tissue cultures (like fetal calf serum). All these
ingredients are known to cause vaccine reactions. http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2009/09/30/vaccinating-small-dogs-risks-vets-arent-revealing/

Bryan is right Victoria   Lepto has a short duration of immunity — actually may be less then 1 year so pups can go 3 or 6 months without protection..

The American Animal Hospital Association 2006 Vaccine Guideline (linked before) states “Annual boosters are not routinely recommended for all dogs.  Vaccination should be restricted to use in areas where a reasonable risk of exposure has been established.  Veterinarians are advised of anecdotal reports of acute anaphylaxis in toy breeds following administration of leptospirosis vaccines.  Routine vaccination of toy breeds should only be considered in dogs known to have a high exposure risk.  Dogs determined to be at exceptionally high risk should be vaccinated at 12 and 16 weeks of age, and then at intervals of 6-9 months until the risk has been reduced.”

In the Comments and Recommendations section AAHA writes “Minimum DOI based on challenge studies has been shown to be approximately 1 year for servavars L. canicola and L. icterohaemorrhagia; however, efficacy of the products can be low (<75%).  DOI for serovars grippotyphosa and pomona are assumed to be up to 1 year."

The vaccine protects against 4 serovars of lepto.  However there are over 200 seravors (not all will infect dogs though).  So, your dog could become ill from lepto even if vaccinated.  Also, dogs that are vaccinated can become asymptomatic carriers.  From memory — humans can contract two of the seravors from dogs —- your children could get lepto from your dog…….  They make lepto vaccines for humans……….  BUT, the vaccine is so dangerous that only people at HIGH risk of acquiring the disease are vaccinated.  They don't vaccinate humans in the US for lepto to my knowledge.  That tells me all I need to know about giving my dog the vaccine…

The other thing about canine vaccines is people don’t educate themselves. They get a postcard from the vets office, telling them it’s time to re-vaccinate so it’s automatically done. They don’t know that is the owners choice, not the vets.

The person I spoke with earlier about vaccines told me Lepto has to be given once a year still. Notice I said “the person I spoke with” as I’ve shown my knowledge regarding vaccines is quite limited. LOL

Not sure but I’m not playing with my dogs food. This is the only food that I have found that ALL 6 of my dogs do well on. I was having problems keeping weight on my 3 Belgian Malinois and it helps my German Shepherds coats

 Hey Shawna, that’s good. I made my son’s pediatrician space the vaccinations out & no multiple shots, only one at a time. It took him 5 years to get all his, just in time for kindergarten last year. 

I had an outstanding vet in northern CA who vaccinated my dogs until they were 4 and then every three years ONLY if I needed paperwork. Otherwise she felt they were vaccinated for life. 

Not “completely” wrong? I’ll take it, as being totally right is just too hard. LOL

Yeah the reason I know this is because at the shelter I work at all the rabies vaccines we give are identical. Whether the paper say good for 1 year or good for 3 years is only based on their previous vaccine history. If we don’t have a vaccination record for the dog or the dog wasn’t kept up to date their paper says 1 year if the dog was up to date the paper says 3 years – same vaccine though.

I agree InkedMarie!!  Truth be known, I don’t titer any more either…  Audrey’s kd was caught so early that she has only had her first set of puppy shots (adeno, distemper and parvo given while still at the breeders) – she is exempted from rabies for life.

My grandkids aren’t vaccinated either..  Shhhhhh

Okay, I couldn’t help myself   Here’s a blurb from the Schultz article I linked to in last post.

“But, as Schultz points out, vaccines can keep people immune for a lifetime: we’re usually inoculated for measles, mumps and rubella as children but never as adults. So, can dogs be vaccinated as pups and then never again?

While evidence from Schultz’s studies on both his own dogs and many other dogs from controlled studies suggests the answer is yes, Schultz recommends a more conservative plan based on duration of immunity and individual risk.

Schultz says that core vaccines, or the ones that protect against life-threatening disease, are essential for all dogs, yet he does not recommend dogs receive these shots yearly. “With the exception of rabies, the vaccines for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV trigger an immunological memory of at least seven years,” he explains. (Studies testing the duration of immunity for rabies shots show it lasts about three years.)”

Hi Victoria-

My problem with the chicken grain free is the ingredient breakdown. Its chicken, chicken meal, peas, peas starch and pea protein. Makes me wonder if when the “pea” is added up, if those three components outweigh the chicken protein(meal) Otherwise, why would they split ingredients like that ?

Love this food! I feed the grain free chicken. This is the only thing that keeps weight on my dogs

My vet only vaccinates for Distemper/Parvo every 3 years now. Your dog should be good until 2014!

I’m almost done with my 2nd 30lb bag of grain free heartland select for my 4 year old golden/lab mix. Before that I was giving him Taste of the Wild – high prarie formula (until it got recalled). I actually think it’s a great food and notice that even though I’m feeding him less, he’s not as hungry as he was previously. I would recommend it…

I fed the Grain-Free Lamb Meal to my guy a bag ago..I’m using it in a rotation with Horizon Legacy Fish and Performatrin Ultra Grain Free…and maybe one other.  My guy LOVED the Lamb Meal, wolfed it down faster than any other kibble he’s had, and I was very happy with how his coat and general overall appearance, etc was while he was on it.  It’s definitely one I will keep in the rotation.  I consider it a real hidden gem of a dog food!

I have fed the Bites (without the herbs) and the dogs LOVED them….  I’m going to get some and try them too …

It was created by her mom…

http://www.drbeckersbites.com/the-history-of-dr.beckers-bites

The Dr Becker Bites – Detox Bites

300 mg milk thistle per 5 treats.

http://www.drbeckersbites.com/solution-bites/detox/detox-bites.html

Yep, I’m with Sandy and Toxed — as long as the overall diet is balanced you are good to go (unless pup is ill then I would balance every meal personally).. 

Because I have 8 dogs or more at any given time I can’t really feed raw meaty bones in the winter (we have pretty severe winters here in Nebraska and feeding outside is not an option).  Feeding inside would be a dog fight in the making — not to mention a possible health issue for the humans…

Chicken and turkey are really the only raw meaty bones small enough for my crew to consume as a meal — if I don’t want fat pups with broken teeth..  They are skilled at consuming necks (both turkey and chichen), wings and the little legs (chicken only).  Even the 3 pound Chi would get in on the action (I use meat scissors to cut the necks into sizes appropriate for each dog.

Several Boxer parents on Healthy Pets feed their pups chicken backs..  A safe way to start if concerned it to hold the meat/bone while she chews so that you can control the situation.  If she does well you can let go.  If not, hold on til she gets the hang of it..  I’m guessing she’ll be a pro after working on her other bones..  I will note that I have had some dogs try to swallow pieces too large and so far they just spit it back up and chew a little more til it will go down.  I have one foster dog now that consistantly tries to swallow chews that are too big so she would not be a candidate (in my home at least) for RMBs..

The “detox” product on Mercola — are you talking about Spirugreen?  I like the product but even Dr. Becker recommends milk thistle for detoxing after heartworm/flea tick preventatives.  It helps with glutathione which makes for a happy liver …

Dunno Sandy, she is about 70 lbs and we never tried this before so maybe bigger is better for a start.I give her so much different stuff that nothing bothers her tummy.See if any other raw’ers jump in and maybe I’ll give it a go next weekend.

I’d give her a big piece that she can’t swallow.  My big pug will crunch 5 times on his little wing and then down the hatch.  Where my other ones take a few minutes on the wing.  The drumstick and thigh take more time and they all work on those, not just gulp it down. Turkey necks are quite large so you might try that.  You might even be able to get your grocery store meat department to order you a case of turkey necks. Fresh is Best has a freeze dried turkey neck. Maybe you can soak it in water and try it or try it dry.  Someone tied their raw meaty bone on a broomstick or other that way the dog couldn’t get the whole thing at once. 

I save my 20% and give them a raw chicken drumstick/thigh/turkey neck  meal once a week mixed in with raw chicken wing couple times a week since I have small dogs. You need to think “over time” not just today or tomorrow and maybe even beyond 1 week. Sounds like you stress yourself out sometimes trying to be the bestest dad ever! You’re doing a great job.  I don’t incorporate extras every day but over time the extras that I do use will be beneficial.

Hey DFA’ers what a shock I have a question…I went shopping today for marked down beef and got some stew meat and ground beef.There are some benefits in feeding beef as I have read here.I divided up about 10 bags of beef and chicken gizzards,hearts and popped them in the freezer.I guess the rule of thumb is not going over 20% of your dogs diet with the added extra’s.Does that mean per serving or per week?On my two days off we do alot more exercise and I load her up with a mixture of veggies (brocc,cauli,amd carrots),extra meat,egg,tumeric,a few blueberries.I lightly cook the eggs and meat and puree the veggies and fruit.It comes out to about 2 1/3 cups of total food after a great workout.I dried out some egg shells and ground them up into a powder.I add a baby spoon of the groud eggshell to the extra meat.Am I doing it right?? During the week she gets tripett,95% canned meat,and one day a week sardines mixed with her kibble.Shawna if you read this novel,would you use the detox from becker or just milk thistle after her revolution every 45 days?? ok I’m done I think….

I would agree with Toxed…  Example — they mention Vitilgo being just cosmetic however a nutrient deficiency can cause it..  Not that the nutrient is missing from the diet but maybe it is not being digested and absorbed properly.  OR the shot/bait caused a need for more —- when my daughter’s had to get a rabies shot it started causing seizures.  The seizures were controlled by upping her vitamin supplement and giving an extra amount of magnesium (even though it was in appropriate amounts in the diet).

I wouldn’t let it stress you out or anything Labs…  You can help the immune system as Toxed suggested and then if symptoms ever do appear you can address them as they come up…

Hi Labs,
It did. And it did say that chemicals & toxins could cause it. I’d read the stuff before when researching about hyper-pigmentation (black skin disease) and it said that loss of pigment was the other side of the coin. That first article I read did link it to immune system overload. So, reducing as many dietary and environmental toxins will help. Then, boost the immune system everyday you can. I know that that article says its fairly permanent, but they aren’t naturopathic, or holistic. So they aren’t playing with a full deck.

 Hey Shawna, thanks for posting the article about rabies baits. Pretty scary! Who knows what effect it might have had on her immune system.

Wow! That’s a pretty scary article!!

I talked to several people about some of those concerns. I was assured that unless you were an avian, you couldn’t get the carrier virus. I have no idea if the virus that was used in this experiment, was the same, or not.

I spoke with Dr. Wonderlich, at the CDC, and several other’s, specifically about the subject of this next paragraph, taken from that article, and they said it can’t happen.

“In addition to the danger of jumping species and return to virulence, there is another frightening way for these new viruses to spread: aerosolization. It used to be that we could feel pretty safe about rabies because the chances that our dogs would trade saliva with another animal were pretty slim. Nowadays, thanks to recombinant vaccines, there is no bite required. The Center for Disease Control acknowledges that rabies can be spread via aerosolization so you or your dog need only be in close proximity to a rabies infected animal to be in danger.”

The Immunologist said that there is only one documented case of rabies transfer, where there was no obvious saliva transfer. It happened in a very tight, densely bat infested cave, where the hundreds bats flew up into the woman’s face, brushing against her open mouth. (screaming)

It was believed that that their was projected saliva transfer, and that there were so many bats involved, that the woman was unaware of it. This is the same immunologist that said that they (recombinant vaccines) do have their own problems… They aren’t “safe”, they are “safer.”

It is a huge problem, and the evidence just shows us, it’s a crap shoot. /:-(

“The Very Real Problem With Rabies Baits
November 2010 Issue
by: Patricia Jordan DVM”
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/rabies-bait-dangers/

Oh my! Did it change back yet? Did she have any other symptoms?

The head of Zoonosis in Texas, said “it won’t hurt pets that accidentally ingest them. They’re safer than shots.” makes me wonder hw many she ate?!

I was reading about that pink nose thing the other day, while looking for something else…. Can’t remember the details. We did have a lab x visla whose nosed turned pink from time to time. But I was a lot more ignorant back then, and one of the “sheeple.” :-}

Hi aimee!
LOL!!! Perfect!!

Thanks Mikey! I adore you, too!

I think you could wait and titer in 2014, 3 yrs seems the consensus… IMO But, dear, if it gives you piece of mind, do it in 2. Your right, the research does show that even if the numbers are low, the body responds by cell memory to produce enough to mount an adequate defense. The immune system is complex and amazing! plus, you’ll have Jubes in such excellent health!!!

Hmmm, there again, I just have hear-say from those sources. You know until we have access to ALL the data, there’s some doubt involved. But I was told some things about the manufacture process that arn’t common knowledge, about regular vaccines. Shudder! Obviously, I’m not pro-vac. Though I surely wish there was a safer way to protect my pups. I don’t want them at risk of rabies either. it is a quandary!!

Hi Melissa,
I found it both interesting and frustrating. The safest rabies vaccine is the one that they feed to wildlife in bait, but it’s illegal to give to pets. !!! I though, “HUH?!” I actually got the lecture from several different manufacturers and the head of zoonosis, in Texas. It took me a while to believe it. GFETE we are a stubborn bunch! Heh, heh. So I can understand your reservations. There are some vets out there willing to sell one dose to other vets, of the Imrab 3 TF, if you want a “safer” vac. But after what I learned from the Immunologist, not safe enough for us.

Good info on Burdock! We used to have quite the stand here, but I pulled it all out, thinking it was just a weed! It would get 6 ft tall. The burs are horrible for sheep. Bummer.

I discovered you don’t want to take it in the evening. I was up til 2:00, “clearing my kidneys” LOL So much for sleep last night!!!!!

Sequestered by spraying; no Service Dog field trips. looking at RVs…

Love you too Sweetie!!!

You can buy burdock root (the actual root) at the health food store too..  At least Whole Foods carries it here.. 

The root is a significant source of prebiotic inulin and FOS and therefore is a good “nitrogen trap” which helps remove toxins in the blood via the feces — sparing the kidneys the extra workload …  I grate the fresh root onto Audrey’s raw food and mix it in — she’s not exceptionally fond of the taste …

I think Burdocks ability to act as a nitrogen trap is one of the reasons it is deemed the “blood purifier” of the herb world. 

Get some sleep my friend!! 

I haven’t been reading all the posts, but I have started doing this now starting this year….titering, then vaccinating if necessary.  So far, 3 out of the 4 dogs that have been titered have not had to be re-vaccinated…one has not been titered yet!  Lucy, my mixed breed, goes in May for her first titers.  I may have said this before, but I switched to a holistic vet after my Shih-Poo passed away last year.

Hi Melissa,
The rabies for cats is now recombinant rabies DNA grafted on canary pox virus. It has fewer side effects than the killed virus w/,gentimycin/aluminum one. It also is less effective and has a few other issues. But it doesn’t generate the RAS.

 LOL. Yes, we seem to have a special spot for the hard to place ones and the medically challenged : ) On the bright side,  they came with their various ailments and have far exceeded their given prognosis : )

As do you me!!!!!!!!!!!! Love you!!!!!

The scary part, I can’t remember those two emails! Yikes! I think I need to go to bed early tonight.

I’m exploring more detox methods. I’m drinking burdock root tea. Not the tastiest, but supposed to boost kidney liver & lymph. if it works, I think I’ll give Sonya some. She like veggies anyway.

O’ by the way… Kudos to Richard and Brother’s Complete Fish Formula!!! Sonya has had reoccurring eye staining, when we take a hit, here. Since she’s been on Brother’s, she doesn’t get stains even when we take a hit. And she’s lived through some nasty 2,4-D hits by the neighbor. 2,4-D is heavy and moves along the ground. So dogs and kids are effected more. She’s 14… I think.

Yes, I agree!!  Very enlightening and interesting!

I’ve had the brains not working thing lately — as you very well know…   My brain was soooooo fried that Friday afternoon when I asked for your help replying to those two emails!!   You complete me …..

I’m all in Toxi on saying no to vacs. Jubilee is probably 4 yrs old and the research suggest 5 to 7 yrs of immunity.That would be life for her assuming she lives her breed average of 10 years.I might as well try this new way of thinking as we have nothing to lose but all to gain with a better quality of life.I can still see my Rusty boy bouncing off the walls with his brain cancer.Guess what??He got his yearly vaccinations…Hmmm

I **think** you are talking about the one I sent you..  Which was discussed on Natural News here  http://www.naturalnews.com/035371_vaccine_theory_antibodies_viruses.html

 Hi Mike P. we do all vac. every 3 yrs. 

Hi Mike P,
LOL, I’m sure as shooting that after one, you’re done in most dogs. The research shows that if a vac doesn’t confer immunity after the first one, they won’t ever. The research also shows that vacs do more harm than good in way too many cases. That Immunologist toLd me they are seeing the same kinds of vaccine site sarcoma’s in dogs as they saw in cats. They are telling vets to give them in the tail or lower limb, now, so when they get cancer they can cut off that part. That’s just not acceptable!!!!!!!!

Cell biology teaches that even if there isn’t a titer recognized immunity, the cell memory will still produce the necessary anti-bodies to fight the invaders. Then there was this great research paper that came out last week saying the whole vaccine theory was mistaken, but I can’t remember where I read it, cause my brains are like cold gravy today. Sorry!

Bottom line, I doubt I’ll ever vac again, unless they remove all toxins, and the vacs are PROVEN completely safe.

LOL Shawna I think I know what Toxi’s answer will be too.Just have to read it…signed..Mr insecure

Toxi so glad you visited I really miss when your not here.If I understand correctly the 3 yr rabbies vac is the same dose as the 1 yr shot??If true the parvo/distemper 3 yr is prob the same?? I am freaking out on this vacs thing.I’ve read and read and read Schultz and Dodds and am convinced that yearly parv/dist shots are not needed.Are you as sure as Shawna is on this? Sorry Shawna but I warned you lol that I run everything by as many people that will listen.

Persistance pays off ….

I would have a bald patch and a huge cheat sheet….  Sounds like you have to create a variety of dietary masterpieces for many different pets in your home….  I have a hard enough time just keeping track of who’s allergic to what in my house so I generally just avoid any foods that cause a reaction in any dog…  

Let us know how the diet goes long term!!!

Agreed ….  I think it is nice that we can present both sides of the coin for those on the fence..

I also was not aware that you run a kennel…  I can completely understand your hesitance to go off label in that situation.  I also wanted to say that I highly respect your inclusion of titering as an acceptable form of proof of immunity!!!  Many, it seems, are not educated enough on the topic to accept titer testing….  Glad you are!!!!!

 Mike P-

Yes, Schultz stated what I said  : ) “Some dogs, depending on their risk, may need vaccines annually”- Every one’s pet has different risk exposure. I personally only vaccinate for Distemper/parvo, rabies, and sometimes KC depending on the dog-We do not do lepto, lyme or the new “flu vaccine”. And the vaccines we do give are dependent on the individual dogs risk to exposure.

Man I’m so sorry everyone>I just wanted to send this link and it posted like100 times.How do you delete a post???

 UW-Madison Home News from UW-Madison
Search term: Submit search: UW-Madison > News > Schultz: Dog vaccines may n…
Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary March 14, 2003 Email53 16
A veterinarian prepares to administer a canine vaccine to a dog at the School of Veterinary Medicine Clinic. Research by Ronald Schultz, professor and chair of pathological sciences in the School of Veterinary Medicine, questions whether current vaccination guidelines are causing our pets to be unnecessarily over-vaccinated. (Photo: Jeff Miller)

Schultz Once a year, Ronald Schultz checks the antibody levels in his dogs’ blood. Why? He says for proof that most annual vaccines are unnecessary. Schultz, professor and chair of pathobiological sciences at School of Veterinary Medicine, has been studying the effectiveness of canine vaccines since the 1970s; he’s learned that immunity can last as long as a dog’s lifetime, which suggests that our “best friends” are being over-vaccinated. Based on his findings, a community of canine vaccine experts has developed new veterinary recommendations that could eliminate a dog’s need for annual shots. The guidelines appear in the March/April issue of Trends, the journal of the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA). Every year, when we take our dogs to the veterinarian’s office, they could receive up to 16 different vaccines, many of which are combined into a single shot. Four of these products protect against life-threatening diseases, including rabies, canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2), canine distemper virus (CDV) and canine adenovirus type 2 (CAV-2); the rest protect against milder diseases to which only some dogs are exposed, including Lyme disease. But, as many veterinarians are realizing, over-vaccination can actually jeopardize a dog’s health and even life. Side effects can cause skin problems, allergic reactions and autoimmune disease. Though the case in cats, not dogs, tumors have been reported at the site of vaccine injections. “These adverse reactions have caused many veterinarians to rethink the issue of vaccination,” says Schultz. “The idea that unnecessary vaccines can cause serious side effects is in direct conflict with sound medical practices.” For 30 years, Schultz has been examining the need to vaccinate animals so often and for so many diseases. “In the 1970s, I started thinking about our immune response to pathogens and how similar it is in other animals,” says Schultz. “That’s when I started to question veterinary vaccination practices.” Just like ours, a canine’s immune system fires up when a pathogen, like a virus, enters the body. The pathogen releases a protein called an antigen, which calls into action the immune system’s special disease-fighting cells. Called B and T lymphocytes, these cells not only destroy the virus, but they remember what it looked like so they can fend it off in the future. It’s this immunological memory that enables vaccines, which purposely contain live, weakened or dead pathogens, to protect against future disease. But, as Schultz points out, vaccines can keep people immune for a lifetime: we’re usually inoculated for measles, mumps and rubella as children but never as adults. So, can dogs be vaccinated as pups and then never again? While evidence from Schultz’s studies on both his own dogs and many other dogs from controlled studies suggests the answer is yes, Schultz recommends a more conservative plan based on duration of immunity and individual risk. Schultz says that core vaccines, or the ones that protect against life-threatening disease, are essential for all dogs, yet he does not recommend dogs receive these shots yearly. “With the exception of rabies, the vaccines for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV trigger an immunological memory of at least seven years,” he explains. (Studies testing the duration of immunity for rabies shots show it lasts about three years.) For these reasons, Schultz suggests that dogs receive rabies shots every three years (as is required by law in most states) and the other core vaccines no more frequently than every three years. Some non-core vaccines, on the other hand, have a much shorter duration of immunity, lasting around one year. But, as Schultz points out, not every dog should get these types of vaccines, because not every dog is at risk for exposure. Today, many vaccinated dogs receive a shot for Lyme disease. However, Schultz says that the ticks carrying the Lyme disease pathogen can be found in only a few regions of the United States. More importantly, Schultz adds, “The vaccine can cause adverse effects such as mild arthritis, allergy or other immune diseases. Like all vaccines, it should only be used when the animal is at significant risk.” He notes that the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at the UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine rarely administers the Lyme disease vaccine. Another common vaccine that Schultz says is unnecessary protects against “kennel cough,” an often mild and transient disease contracted during boarding or dog shows. “Most pet dogs that do not live in breeding kennels, are not boarded, do not go to dog shows and have only occasional contact with dogs outside their immediate family,” Schultz recommends, “rarely need to be vaccinated or re-vaccinated for kennel cough.” Schultz says that it’s important for veterinarians to recognize an individual dog’s risk for developing a particular disease when considering the benefits of a vaccine. “Vaccines have many exceptional benefits, but, like any drug, they also have the potential to cause significant harm.” Giving a vaccine that’s not needed, he explains, creates an unnecessary risk to the animal. Recommending that dogs receive fewer vaccines, Schultz admits, may spark controversy, especially when veterinarians rely on annual vaccines to bring in clients, along with income. But, as he mentions, annual visits are important for many reasons other than shots. “Checking for heartworm, tumors, dermatological problems and tooth decay should be done on a yearly basis,” he says. “Plus, some dogs, depending on their risk, may need certain vaccines annually.” Rather than vaccinating on each visit, veterinarians can use a recently developed test which checks dogs’ immunity against certain diseases. Schultz adds that veterinarians who have switched to the three-year, instead of annual, vaccination program have found no increase in the number of dogs with vaccine-preventable diseases. “Everyday, more and more people in the profession are embracing the change,” notes Schultz. And, that the new vaccination guidelines supported by the AAHA, along with the task force members representing the American Colleges of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Veterinary Microbiology and the American Association of Veterinary Immunologists, is evidence of just that.
Related story topicsResearch More newsRSS feeds Twitter Facebook YouTube UW on iTunes U Latest headlinesUW-Madison honors Academic Staff Award winners
Administrative Excellence team seek input on trash cans, hand towels
Four honored with Hilldale Awards
Harbison, Haydn and Franck close UW Pro Arte Quartet centennial season
Science Expeditions opens doors to UW-Madison science
More »Browse other storiesStories by topic
ArchivesFor news media
Contact us Services Releases Experts News library Related sitesInside UW–Madison On Wisconsin Events calendar UW Athletics © 2012 Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin System Contact us

 UW-Madison Home News from UW-Madison
Search term: Submit search: UW-Madison > News > Schultz: Dog vaccines may n…
Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary March 14, 2003 Email53 16
A veterinarian prepares to administer a canine vaccine to a dog at the School of Veterinary Medicine Clinic. Research by Ronald Schultz, professor and chair of pathological sciences in the School of Veterinary Medicine, questions whether current vaccination guidelines are causing our pets to be unnecessarily over-vaccinated. (Photo: Jeff Miller)

Schultz Once a year, Ronald Schultz checks the antibody levels in his dogs’ blood. Why? He says for proof that most annual vaccines are unnecessary. Schultz, professor and chair of pathobiological sciences at School of Veterinary Medicine, has been studying the effectiveness of canine vaccines since the 1970s; he’s learned that immunity can last as long as a dog’s lifetime, which suggests that our “best friends” are being over-vaccinated. Based on his findings, a community of canine vaccine experts has developed new veterinary recommendations that could eliminate a dog’s need for annual shots. The guidelines appear in the March/April issue of Trends, the journal of the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA). Every year, when we take our dogs to the veterinarian’s office, they could receive up to 16 different vaccines, many of which are combined into a single shot. Four of these products protect against life-threatening diseases, including rabies, canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2), canine distemper virus (CDV) and canine adenovirus type 2 (CAV-2); the rest protect against milder diseases to which only some dogs are exposed, including Lyme disease. But, as many veterinarians are realizing, over-vaccination can actually jeopardize a dog’s health and even life. Side effects can cause skin problems, allergic reactions and autoimmune disease. Though the case in cats, not dogs, tumors have been reported at the site of vaccine injections. “These adverse reactions have caused many veterinarians to rethink the issue of vaccination,” says Schultz. “The idea that unnecessary vaccines can cause serious side effects is in direct conflict with sound medical practices.” For 30 years, Schultz has been examining the need to vaccinate animals so often and for so many diseases. “In the 1970s, I started thinking about our immune response to pathogens and how similar it is in other animals,” says Schultz. “That’s when I started to question veterinary vaccination practices.” Just like ours, a canine’s immune system fires up when a pathogen, like a virus, enters the body. The pathogen releases a protein called an antigen, which calls into action the immune system’s special disease-fighting cells. Called B and T lymphocytes, these cells not only destroy the virus, but they remember what it looked like so they can fend it off in the future. It’s this immunological memory that enables vaccines, which purposely contain live, weakened or dead pathogens, to protect against future disease. But, as Schultz points out, vaccines can keep people immune for a lifetime: we’re usually inoculated for measles, mumps and rubella as children but never as adults. So, can dogs be vaccinated as pups and then never again? While evidence from Schultz’s studies on both his own dogs and many other dogs from controlled studies suggests the answer is yes, Schultz recommends a more conservative plan based on duration of immunity and individual risk. Schultz says that core vaccines, or the ones that protect against life-threatening disease, are essential for all dogs, yet he does not recommend dogs receive these shots yearly. “With the exception of rabies, the vaccines for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV trigger an immunological memory of at least seven years,” he explains. (Studies testing the duration of immunity for rabies shots show it lasts about three years.) For these reasons, Schultz suggests that dogs receive rabies shots every three years (as is required by law in most states) and the other core vaccines no more frequently than every three years. Some non-core vaccines, on the other hand, have a much shorter duration of immunity, lasting around one year. But, as Schultz points out, not every dog should get these types of vaccines, because not every dog is at risk for exposure. Today, many vaccinated dogs receive a shot for Lyme disease. However, Schultz says that the ticks carrying the Lyme disease pathogen can be found in only a few regions of the United States. More importantly, Schultz adds, “The vaccine can cause adverse effects such as mild arthritis, allergy or other immune diseases. Like all vaccines, it should only be used when the animal is at significant risk.” He notes that the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at the UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine rarely administers the Lyme disease vaccine. Another common vaccine that Schultz says is unnecessary protects against “kennel cough,” an often mild and transient disease contracted during boarding or dog shows. “Most pet dogs that do not live in breeding kennels, are not boarded, do not go to dog shows and have only occasional contact with dogs outside their immediate family,” Schultz recommends, “rarely need to be vaccinated or re-vaccinated for kennel cough.” Schultz says that it’s important for veterinarians to recognize an individual dog’s risk for developing a particular disease when considering the benefits of a vaccine. “Vaccines have many exceptional benefits, but, like any drug, they also have the potential to cause significant harm.” Giving a vaccine that’s not needed, he explains, creates an unnecessary risk to the animal. Recommending that dogs receive fewer vaccines, Schultz admits, may spark controversy, especially when veterinarians rely on annual vaccines to bring in clients, along with income. But, as he mentions, annual visits are important for many reasons other than shots. “Checking for heartworm, tumors, dermatological problems and tooth decay should be done on a yearly basis,” he says. “Plus, some dogs, depending on their risk, may need certain vaccines annually.” Rather than vaccinating on each visit, veterinarians can use a recently developed test which checks dogs’ immunity against certain diseases. Schultz adds that veterinarians who have switched to the three-year, instead of annual, vaccination program have found no increase in the number of dogs with vaccine-preventable diseases. “Everyday, more and more people in the profession are embracing the change,” notes Schultz. And, that the new vaccination guidelines supported by the AAHA, along with the task force members representing the American Colleges of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Veterinary Microbiology and the American Association of Veterinary Immunologists, is evidence of just that.
Related story topicsResearch More newsRSS feeds Twitter Facebook YouTube UW on iTunes U Latest headlinesUW-Madison honors Academic Staff Award winners
Administrative Excellence team seek input on trash cans, hand towels
Four honored with Hilldale Awards
Harbison, Haydn and Franck close UW Pro Arte Quartet centennial season
Science Expeditions opens doors to UW-Madison science
More »Browse other storiesStories by topic
ArchivesFor news media
Contact us Services Releases Experts News library Related sitesInside UW–Madison On Wisconsin Events calendar UW Athletics © 2012 Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin System Contact us

Shawna i read alot of the info you passed on and one said he titered once and doesn’t bother with titer anymore.The research done by Dodds,Schultz and others just seem overwelming against over vaccinating.Thanks for the link to the rabbies challenge.My vet scared the crap out of me when he told me what parvo does to a dog and urged me to get it done.Scares the crap out of me about brain inflamation too.My last dog died of brain cancer.All the chemicals they want to put into our dogs from flea and tick to vacs is scarey to say the least.I will get the titer done next April.Vet said it cost well over a hundred but to me well worth it.Thanks Shawna for making me feel more secure lol…

I will note that the 3 year recommendations (for parvo and distemper at least) are a “happy medium” from the known efficacy.  This is taken from Veterinary News DMV360.

“Of the core vaccines, the taskforce recommends that the adult dog receive rabies; canine parvovirus vaccine; canine adenovirus-2 (hepatitis vaccine); and distemper vaccines every three years.

The caveat to the recommendation, says Ford,
is that there is good evidence that the protection conferred in adult dogs by both canine distemper and canine parvovirus exceeds five years.

Three years seemed a conservative, happy
medium for all parties involved, according to the taskforce.”
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=46546

They KNOW they last longer..  They just don’t want to piss vets off so they settle on a “happy medium”…  Happy medium is not good enough for my dogs though ..

Not my words Melissa..  These are taken from the experts — not those that have a financial interest in how often vaccs are given (vets & vaccine manufacturers).

You may not agree with Dr. Schultz or the American Animal Hospital Associations guidelines but they are definitely good enough for me .. 

AAHA says “three years or longer” and that testing has been done to confirm 5 and 7 year post vaccination efficacy.  Page 4 http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/vaccineguidelines06revised.pdf

Mike P-

Forgot to ask/mention. If a dog comes into rescue with an unknown vax history, normal protocol for an adult dog is to vaccinate with distemper/parvo, and then do one as a booster 4 weeks later(a shortened puppy series if you will) -and then the one year or three year would start with the next vaccine given 1 yr from the last date of the “series”..

So October 2010. 4 weeks later, and then 1 yr from the second of her shortened series-making her vaccine date due in Nov each year or every three years. So yes, coming off the puppy series, most dogs have 4 within 18mths.(**if pups are vaccinated every 4 weeks starting from 7/8 weeks old) If the vet were going to consider her  vaccinated after the Oct 2010 shot(making the assumption that was a yearly because prior history was available) then there would not be a need for the April 2011 vaccine to have been done, imo.

Shawna good stuff..I drive my wife crazy with my insecurity.I ask her for advice then her sister comes over and I ask her what she thinks,then I talk to someone on the phone and ask them what they think and so on and so on.I’m going to grow a pair and stick to my guns and choose not to over vaccinate.

The experts on immunology (like Dr. Ronald Schultz) say you don’t need added vaccinations, once immune, for anything (including rabies – however you have to follow the law despite the “need” for vaccination or not). 

And you are correct..  They KNOW that these vaccinations last longer then 3 years.  That is why the American Animal Hospital Associations, that you mention, suggest vaccination for distemper, parvo and adeno “every three years OR LONGER”…

Dr. Russell Blaylock says just one vaccination can cause brain inflammation for up to two years (and he’s a neurosurgeon — he should know).  Better have a lot of turmeric and other anti-inflammatories on hand .

Hi Mike P ~ I am awaiting Melissa’s reply. : )  I was just reading this.  I just want to say that I took Dupree for his yearly dermatolgist appointment recently.  I told them about the changes I had made in regard to the wonderful advice I have received from folks on here.  She did remind me that every dog is different, and even though the advice may be good, it is given without ever actually laying eyes on our individual dogs.  You must always do what you feel is best for Jubilee.  I was like you, and second guessing all the time.  I am now trying to look at all the great advice more in general, and not specifically for Dupree.  I am going more with my gut.  : )

I did pass on his three year shots this year, however.  He is not due for rabies until late 2013.

 Mike P-

Rabies always needs to be  current for a pet to board or get groomed. Not only is it the law, but its for the pets protection. If Jubilee came to a groomer for a bath, and say she freaked out an bit someone-do you know the ramifications? In most states a vaccinated dog has to be quarantined for 10 days-if the dog is alive and well on day 11, you are good to go. Unvaccinated animals require a longer quartentine-6mths in NYS.  If the owner can not or is unwilling to afford the boarding fees for 6mths,the dog is euthanized, the head cut off, and the brain sent out for analysis.

Distemper/parvo and bordetella are, of course, not required by law.However,  as a kennel owner, I require them. Why? Because, its for your dogs protection and my reputation. As a kennel owner, I can not control every little aspect of what your dog may be exposed to. Dogs can come in healthy to board, and be shedding a virus. I guarantee you, if someone’s dog were to contract parvo while boarding, the story would be “that place made my dog sick” rather than ” my dog got sick, but hey, I never vaccinated it, despite being told the risks”-and, shortly thereafter, the business would decrease to nothing. Who wants to board where parvo is going to come home with your dog? Owners need to take responsibility for their dogs vaccinations, and they do have the option of 3yr distemper parvo vaccines. Better yet, they can learn to groom at home, or take the dog on vacation with them.

Karlabravo I agree with grain free diet for allergys.You are a groomer so do you agree for over vaccinating a dog so they can get a haircut? I have a sister that has a Poodle that has to be updated on her shots to get clipped.I have a friend who’s dog has to be updated on shots to be boarded so he can go on vacation.What is your stance on giving needless vaccines for these services?I think it sucks…If you want your dog to be healthy don’t get needless vaccines…

We got a toy poodle in December and she has turned her nose up at every dry food we have given her until we found NutriSource. She came home on Eukanuba, which she did not seem to enjoy, and the three subsequent brands I tried were ho-hum for her. We tried mixing with wet, cooking chicken livers and mixing them in, etc. all to no avail. She would eat everything but the crunchy hard food.

A pet food store clerk suggested NutriSource, and rather than buy another $15 bag of wasted food which I was mostly putting down the garbage disposal, I got a free sample bag. On the way home in the carrier, I gave Coco one and when she finished, she whimpered for more, until I realized she thought it was a treat. She finally enjoys her food and I hope we can stick with this one.

Fish8302 ~~ throwing another wrench into the mix here…

Dr. Karen Becker DVM just had a video/article on bone diesease and feeding large and giant breed dogs.  Interestingly, imo, here’s what she writes —-

“Preventing OCD and Other Bone Diseases in Puppies
Reducing the likelihood these skeletal diseases will develop is of course the best approach.
I recommend a slow growth diet, which means you have to skip the grains and carbohydrates — these are energy dense foods that promote rapid growth.”  http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/02/27/three-common-bone-growth-conditions-in-puppies-and-young-dogs.aspx

Thanks, Sandy…that’s a great resource!  I am confused though – this is the first I’ve heard to wait until they are 2 to feed giant breed grain free…any thoughts on that?  I thought grain free was a good thing b/c potoatoes aren’t a main ingredient?

Great! Another quick question…any reason I cant give my 5.5 month old bullmastiff the grain free large breed food? I believe it’s all stage, correct? I know the kibble size is a bit bigger but I’m more concerned with the lower protein, which giant breeds do better on from what I understand. I think I’ve narrowed it down to this and Fromm (not the grain free version)…so many choices!!

Mike – any updates on the Heartland Select? Would love to hear your thoughts!

Coconut oil has many benefits.  Buy Extra Virgin Organic if you can. I lightly scramble eggs in coconut oil and give it to my dogs and rub it on his dry, crusty nose.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-health-benefits-of-coconut-oil/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND8doiVSLDw

Has anyone heard of adding a little coconut oil (virgin?) to the dog food for dog allergies and stomach issues?

After much trial & errors I have finally found a food that my doodle enjoys eating! I have tried many samples of other premium foods based on the reviews on this site so you can imagine how relieved I was to find that she loves and didn’t have to resort to Pedigree which is what she was eating before.
I saw marked improvement in her coat, it’s so beautiful now and doesn’t look dull anymore. Her stools are compact but she poops maybe 3x a day (she’s fed 2x a day 1 1/2 cups/day) which is a plus since my oldest daughter is the one in charge of picking up her stool she no longer complains the huge pile of poop she had to clean when she was eating Pedigree lol. I can honestly say finding the right food for puppy/dog is not any different than finding the right bottle, formula, diapers etc for your own & I have 4!! So it does require lots of patience and trials but you will eventually find the right one.

Right Ransom. Some people say brewer’s yeast isn’t good. Anyways: whatever you think

@Janice, I have two Lhasa Apsos who also have issues with itching. I did changed their food to Nutrisource and it helped tremendously. However, I also found they were allergic to Flaxseed which is found in lots of treats. I would also recommend adding Proderma to their food as it helps stop the itching.
Hope this information helps.
Evie

Janice: Nutrisource is comparable to Blue Buffalo at a slightly reduced cost in some areas. There are a number of reasons that could cause skin irritation and some other supplemental adjustments could be made to help reduce skin irritation (i.e. winter air tends to dry dogs coats so adding supplements to increase the oil in their coats can help). With my german shepherds I have to at least once a week give them a good brush out to get the oils in their coats circulating. I also give them other supplements like NuVet Vitamins and Brewers Yeast Tabs that help reduce their shedding and give them a mix of BB and Nutri Source and they have beautiful coats with no itching in the winter time. Just depends on the dog and finding what could be causing their itching.

My 3 german shepherds (age 2,5 and my finicky 6yr old) love this food! My finicky eater who for 6 yrs hasn’t hardly enthusiastically approached her food is cleaning her dish!
I go through 35 lbs in just about 7 days – wish they had it in a bigger package! I add Natures Variety Raw
Chicken 2 times a week to the dry food. Kudos to Nutrisource!

For anyone looking to buy nutrisource dog food, go to their web site(www.nutrisourcedogfood.com), the main page has a “where to buy” heading. Click on that and it gives you a directory of all the places that sell their food.

I live in Shreveport, Louisiana and am interested in where I can find the nutrisource dry grain free dog food.

Can you help me?

Hi Mike, I recently contacted NutriSource regarding this new grain free food, and asked specifically about the ethoxyquin, and this is the answer that they gave me.

“Hi Jodi! Our new Grain Free Nutrisource does not contain ethoxyquin.
Recent changes in the fish meal processing industry have made it impossible for pet food manufacturers to obtain fish meal certified to not contain traces of ethoxyquin. The NutriSource family of brands are taking the following actions: 1) New products will be formulated with naturally preserved Salmon meal produced in the US without trace levels of ethoxyquin rather than fish meal. 2) Changing to naturally preserved Salmon meal rather than fish meal in current products is under consideration. We do have 4 new Nutrisource products, Grain Free that have Salmon Meal.”

You can find this post on their facebook wall.

Thanks!

Where do I buy this brand of dog food. I live in Jacksonville, FL.?