AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles

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The following items represent some of The Dog Food Advisor’s most frequently asked questions about AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles.

What is AAFCO?

AAFCO is an acronym for the Association of American Feed Control Officials. AAFCO is a non-profit organization that sets standards for both animal feeds and pet foods in the United States.

What are AAFCO dog food nutrient profiles?

In order for a dog food to be marketed as “complete and balanced”, it must meet the nutritional standards established by AAFCO.

These nutritional adequacy standards are defined by two nutrient profiles based upon a dog’s stage of life…

  • Adult maintenance
  • Growth and reproduction

What does growth and reproduction mean?

Dog foods rated for “growth and reproduction” are designed for puppies and pregnant or lactating females.

How can a manufacturer claim a particular product meets one of the two AAFCO nutrient profiles?

In order for any dog food company to claim a product is “complete and balanced” for a specific life stage, that claim must first have been validated in one of two ways…

  • Laboratory analysis only
  • Laboratory analysis plus actual feeding trials

How can a consumer know which method was used to verify AAFCO nutritional adequacy?

The first method uses laboratory analysis of a sample to verify the food meets AAFCO nutritional standards. The label will read…

“(Name of product) is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles”

The second not only uses laboratory analysis but also proves that nutritional adequacy by conducting actual feeding trials with real dogs. This type of adequacy statement will probably read…

“Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that (name of product) provides complete and balanced nutrition”

What if a dog food cannot meet either of the AAFCO nutrient profiles?

Any product that cannot meet either the AAFCO adult maintenance or growth and reproduction standards must state…

“This product is intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only”

In other words, a product not intended for long-term use.

How can I tell if a particular dog food is OK for my puppy?

Any dog food that claims to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for either “growth” or “all life stages” should be OK for most puppies.

If you expect your puppy to weigh 50 pounds or more as an adult, please be sure to read our article, How to Choose the Best Puppy Food and Lower Your Dog’s Risk of Hip Dysplasia.

Is it OK to feed a puppy a dog food claiming to be suitable for “all life stages”?

AAFCO only recognizes two dog food nutrient profiles

  • Adult maintenance
  • Growth and reproduction

However, manufacturers are permitted to market a dog food as suitable for “all life stages” so long as it meets the guidelines for both “Growth and reproduction” and “Adult maintenance”.

In other words, any dog food suitable for “all life stages” is also suitable for puppies, too.

  • Shawna

    Hi Danielle,

    The nutrition seminars can often give information that supports a certain feed or feed concept but not actually be based on sound science. Here’s two examples—

    You state “dogs need veggies in their diets,”

    1. I COMPLETELY agree that there are marvelous benefits from feeding unprocessed fruits and veggies but dogs (or humans for that matter) don’t biologically “need” them as they can make the glucose their body requires from amino acids. Dogs can utilize them – making them omnivorous but that’s different than need them.

    “WALTHAM® pocket book of
    essential nutrition
    for cats and dogs”
    “Cats and dogs can sythesise their own blood glucose from amino acids. Carbohydrate, therefore is not an essential macronutrient. However, if provided in their diet, cats and dogs can utilise carbohydrates and they are used in pet foods as sources of energy and dietary fibre. Carbohydrate levels tend to be higher in dry pet food than in wet pet food.” https://www.waltham.com/dyn/_assets/_pdfs/waltham-booklets/Essentialcatanddognutritionbookletelectronicversion.pdf

    For further data on this, just look at the AAFCO nutrient profile. There’s a minimum requirement for fat and a minimum for protein but a food can be complete and balanced without any carbs at all.

    You state “others suffer kidney damage from high levels of protein”

    2. Protein in absolutely no way has a deleterious affect on the kidneys. There has been tons of studies on this and they’ve known it for at least 20 years now. My favorite source is “Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function” written by Kenneth C. Bovée, DVM, MMedSc, Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania. http://www.championpetfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

  • Danielle

    im not reading all of that. but i know what im talking about, i make my living recommending dog food to people and helping pet owners with their unique situations. i am a “dog food expert” and i have been to countless nutrition seminars all about dog and cat food. I know the ins and outs of most known brands of foods. dogs need veggies in their diets, mine happens to loves whole carrots. some dogs do well on high protein diets, mostly consisting of meat, and others suffer kidney damage from high levels of protein. some dogs do well on grain free diets and others do not. my dog eats only natural pet, which is one of the “best” foods i could feed him and it still has a good mix of fruits and veggies. the science says dogs are omnivores, not strict carnivores like cats. recalls happen for all kinds of reasons, again i know all about dog food, its how i pay to live. food companies arent trying to poison or kill dogs, that wouldnt make good business sense, you cant sell food to a dead dog.

  • Donna Jerard

    Do your homework Danielle. Of course dogs are omnivores, because an omnivorous diet is the only diet of which they are fed. This is the result of frugality amongst consumers, ignorance of consumers and the greed of the “pet food industry.”
    Dogs are descendants of wolves and although be it distant descendants the biological similarities and internal structures have only varied slightly (with regard to all breeds). Wolves are carnivorous and although the pet food industry would have you believe otherwise ‘so is your dog.’ Any canis (domestic dog, wolf, fox, jackal and coyote) become omnivorous when that is the only form of nourishment that they are receiving. You would eat feces if that was the only thing being fed to you. And believe it or not there are pet foods containing the aforementioned; all be it less now-a-days, it still does exist. Point being any multi-billion dollar industry will mislead you in most any way that they can! When is the last time you saw a wolf with a carrot hanging out of its mouth? Short answer; NEVER!
    Without getting into an entire biological lesson here, dogs and any canis have a completely different body physiology that human beings. This means that their nutritional requirements are completely different. And consequently the way that they process different food groups when compared to humans is completely different.
    We realize here at our pet rescue sanctuary that people want to believe in a way that has less of a negative effect on their pocketbook, which is what the previously mentioned “pet food industry” preys upon. Meat is a very expensive and time consuming commodity to produce. Therefore “pet food companies” (many owned by conglomerates such as Nestle’) inform the public of what their dogs should consume with regard to a so-called Complete & Balanced diet.
    We have been educating people on grain free dog food for nearly 40 years. And up until the last few years it has fallen upon deaf ears. Eliminating the harmful grain that once made up the majority of the loosely named “pet foods,” which by the way only refers to what is fed to our pets, is finally started to take root. Now the industry is once again pulling the wool over the general consumers’ eyes and with extreme vigor and roar, loudly marketing their products’ protein content. Everywhere you turn you see or hear this in some way, from some company. Unfortunately these companies are not hiring unintelligent employees. You the consumer have very ambiguous terminology at your disposal; such as “Guaranteed analysis,” and Dry matter Basis.” All well and good, except for the absolute fact that companies manipulate these numbers consistently by boosting protein levels with pea fiber, alfalfa and many additional protein boosters. This methodology presented to the consumer furnishes little or no way to derive at the actual level of meat/s included in the dog food that they purchase from these companies. Leaving even the most vigilant consumer frustrated enough to just “throw in the towel,” give in and settle.
    There is also the commonality in the “pet food industry” to manipulate ingredient list terminology as well. If that isn’t enough, to add insult to injury, there is the generalization and vagueness of the governing standards and practices which is completely obscured. What does all of this mean to you? First off, the expression of “you get what you pay for,” has never rung louder than with this subject at hand.” The second is for you the consumer to do your homework. Crunch those numbers to the best of your ability, educate yourself through various sources (not sources that have a vested interest). Read reviews on the product by actual people using said product. Look for re-calls (this could give insight on a company’s ethics, especially if there were multiple infractions or recalls).
    We can only do our best when it comes to our pets’ well-being however it has to be our best. We need to act as if these are our children, because for many of us they are and they ALL need to be treated in the same manner.

  • LB

    Have you found new food for your dogs? I don’t understand why these crap companies are buying out all the upscale ones….I’m so tired of looking and trying new food, for 2 dogs! My dogs never do good on the same food…still searching.

  • John Sanders

    Have you read the testing “requirements”? Only 8 dogs are required for the testing. As many as 2 of the dogs (25%) can be removed from the testing for any reason, including illness or death. The tests only have to run for 6 months and over the 6 month period, it’s permissible for animals to lose up to 15% of their starting body weight. Explain to me how this is acceptable?

  • Joseph R Rigg

    I’m sorry but science does not support your claims. Though I do feed my dogs just as you suggest. Peace.

  • Dot Severenson

    Problem – those in plants break down in body differently than those in meat. Meat proteins absorb in body differently. Take away an essential part of your diet and try getting it SOLELY from supplements. Won’t work long-term, guaranteed. You MUST have the food, not the supplement or substitute. Same for dogs. They need meat, mixed in a balanced diet with veggies and grains (avoid corn if your dog’s sensitive).

  • Dot Severenson

    The protein in meat breaks down in different ways than the protein in veggies/plants. This is why you must feed a dog meat – they need the proteins from it, and no substitute will work. Try wiping out your veggies and ONLY taking supplements and see how it works for you.

  • Dot Severenson

    Danielle – dogs ARE omnivores – that word means “everything eaters”. They need meat AND veggies in their diet. To feed strictly vegan will make the dog VERY sick because they can’t break down proteins from legumes like we can. Peas and beans are just fillers that give them gassy tummies. No, you should NEVER feed your dog a VEGAN diet. Vegetarian, either. They NEED some meat.

  • Dot Severenson

    Corn is only a problem if your dog is sensitive to it. Just like a food allergy in humans. Our two have no issues with it, so Merrick’s been fine. They also have a grain free food that has no corn. HOWEVER – Purina bought them and Castor & Pollux in July, 2015, so now we have to shop for new food. UGH!

  • Dot Severenson

    Merrick just got bought by Purina. Goodbye quality. We’ve been using Merrick, too, and the dogs love it and have no problems….but now we have to find something else. **sigh**

  • LB

    Dock van patten is the worst, I fed my dogs natural balance potato and duck, extremely SALTY!!! they changed the ingredients since Del Monte bought the company, the kibble was never consistent from bag to bag, I think my small dog had a seizure from it, ingredients come from CHINA. Expensive garbage! Changed to Merrick, and my dogs are loving it…great quality food, from USA.

  • Shawna

    Thanks BC :)… Means A LOT coming from you!! I definitely respect your views and opinions!!!!

    So sorry about your little man!! Such a handsome little guy. My heart and prayers are with you and your family!!!!

  • DogFoodie

    Oh no!! :'(

  • Crazy4dogs

    So sorry to hear. :'(

  • Crazy4cats

    I’m very sorry to hear that. My condolences.

  • theBCnut

    Thanks for having a better head than I and for having my back. Alas, after losing all that sleep, my mini horse didn’t make it.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    You are right most of these nutrients are destroyed by the heating process used to make kibble. I would not recommend cable at all if one were going to feed this way. Many nutrients are actually easier to absorb if they are lightly cooked but most are destroyed by excessive heat.

  • Shawna

    I would agree with you that veggies are full of some amazing nutrients but do dogs really need large amounts of these from veggies and how many of these survive the heating of processing used to make kibbles? They know that vitamin E is damaged by heat as an example. Alpha tocopherol is added back in as well as “mixed tocopherols” in some foods but the tocotrienols are NEVER added back in. It is the tocotrienols that are the actual cancer fighters of the E family.

  • Shawna

    I’m a bit confused as BC is specifically discussing BV without actually saying BV?

    I agree with most everything you say but one part. You wrote “That means you will need to feed twice as much vegetarian based feeds to get the right amount of usable protein.”

    As you know, the protein is broken down into amino acids. The body uses groups of amino acids. An example of this — the body uses the amino acids glutamate, glycine and cystein to make the master antioxidant of the body called glutathione. Let’s say there’s not enough cystein in the protein eaten to combine with the other two – glutathione cannot be made.

    Because of this, feeding more of a lower biologically available protein isn’t going to produce more of the amino acids missing in that protein. The bv is going to be the same whether feeding a teaspoon of the protein or a pound of the protein.

    Heating and processing damages certain proteins (like lysine and taurine) so a highly processed cooked food, like most kibbles, will have a lower bv than a less processed, lower temp cooked food.

    Vegetarian kibbles, and most others for that matter, have to add extra amino acids to the mix to increase the biological value of the food and can’t rely on the natural foods alone.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    Great point to bring up NPU and BV. Indeed an animal will need to consume larger quantities to receive the same intake of these nutrients. Fortunately veggie matter is full of cleansing cellulose and phyto/micronutrients. Also fortunate is that dogs really like to eat. Lol.

  • DogNutrition

    BC .. I cannot tell you how half-right you are. You are right, ration is not important as long as they get enough of all. What is important and nobody talks about is the Biological value or “usable” protein in a food. A dog cannot digest all protein forms equally (although many would have you believe otherwise). Usable protein ranges from 100% in products like eggs down to 40% in wheat products with beef falling in around the 80% mark. That means you will need to feed twice as much vegetarian based feeds to get the right amount of usable protein. So yes, they can digest a vegetarian diet just not as well as meat based. You would have to feed them twice as much and in the end, not really the best choice for the animal.

  • Danielle

    dogs are omnivores and can live along healthy life on a properly balanced vegetarian diet

  • Danielle

    dogs are omnivores

  • Danielle

    unlike cats who are strict carnivores, dogs are omnivores and can survive off of a vegetarian diet but very few brands offer vegetarian food for dogs. the only one i am aware of is Natural Balance.

    Source: work in a pet specialty store as a manager
    second source: had to sit through a 5 hour nutrition seminar on cat and dog foods yesterday and watch videos about dog food almost daily.

  • Danielle

    dogs are omnivores though, they need veggies in their diet just like we do they will live a short, painful life.

  • angelina

    Dogs are carnivores and a vegetarian diet is not suitable. They need meat and bone.

  • angelina

    The AAFCO has given pet food companies the confidence to come up with formulas which are designed to make your pet sick. There is no such thing as a excellent kibble. Cats and dogs are carnivores and they deserve nothing put fresh meaty bones and offal but instead they are being used as recycling bins to minimise all the waste in the human food industry. And you wonder why pets have smelly breath and are getting sick. This is animal abuse and it needs to stop.

  • Kathy Horton

    Dogs ARE very adaptable, but just because they can survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean it is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.

  • theBCnut

    Nevermind, I obviously can’t make myself understood tonight, so I’ll quit trying.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    I’m sorry but that simply is not true. There are so many different proteins in a dogs various cells that if that were the case every meal would need to provide a different amino acid profile. As long as all the essential amino acids are provided in enough quantity the proportion does not matter the dogs body knows how to put those Amino acids together into whatever proteins the body is working at building at that time. I will not pretend to say that feeding a dog a meat free diet would be easy just that it is possible. Again I do feed my dogs meet.

  • theBCnut

    I meant to be used they have to be supplied in the proportions necessary to make up the different proteins. If there is a great abundance of a few of them but only limited amounts of others, then the proteins created will be limited. Sorry I wasn’t clear. They need to be supplied in the correct proportions to be useful.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    The amino acids do not need to be supplied in ny specific proportion. The important thing is that there are enough of them. Dogs I just almost anything with ease, at least a normal healthy dog. Keep on learning, when you get more science behind your wonderful passion you are going to be great. Much love.

  • theBCnut

    Those amino acids need to be supplied in the correct proportions also. One other issue is that dogs can’t digest those plant products very efficiently without a lot of processing, which means that every meal every day for life is a processed meal if you don’t feed meat. That’s a lot of processed food-like substance.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    From thebark.com

    While dogs, cats and even humans produce about half of these amino acids internally, the other half, termed “essential amino acids,” need to be provided by the diet. The 10 essential amino acids are arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan and valine.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    Well you have learned correctly so far. Also, congrats on your undertaking to become a veterinarian.

    Yes, meat has the amino acids necessary for dogs to live healthily. That said, ALL those aminos are available from plant sources also. A person who decided not to feed their dogs any meat would have to make sure the variety of amino acids the dog was consuming from the different plant sources contain all of the ESSENTIAL amino acids a dog needs. The term essential in reference to amino acids means aminos that the dog cannot produce themselves physiologically . While not as easy as feeding meat, there is no reason a dog can’t be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet. Love to you sister. Be well.

  • Brandi

    Protein is made of amino acids, right? Well dogs don’t so much require protein as they require amino acids. Real meat, not eggs or soybeans, is able to offer the KIND of amino acids they need to be able to build muscle and maintain body condition. Protein is not the same between meat and vegetables and eggs even though it is present in all of the mentioned. This is what I have learned in vet school so far.

  • Brenda

    Cesar dog food is it AAFCO SAFE

  • Barbara Gilson

    Thank you for your information. I thought Hills/Sciencediet were just expensive foods. The statement about more or less stools really made me pay attention. We have recently rescued two dogs a senior and a 1 1/2 year old. We are feeding 4health chicken grain free …..these dogs poop more than any dog we ever had.
    Prior to these dogs we had two Labs for life and Fed them Wellness.Both dogs died from Spleen Cancer.

  • Nancy

    Dogs naturally eat a combination of foods, animal and plant based. Aka omnivores

  • M Dunn

    Yeah that’s why wild dogs and wolves eat a diet of 100% raw meat. Do a little research before you make a FOOL of yourself in print.

  • M Dunn

    Pretty sure it has corn in it. Alot of cheap dog foods do. Many dogs have an allergy to corn causes skin problems licking sores too.

  • Joseph R Rigg

    Why do you believe that a dog must have meat to live? What is in the meat that is so special that it cannot be obtained from alternate sources? Meat is primarily a protein source. Protein is made up from constituent amino acids. As long as the dog is receiving all the essential amino acids in its diet, it does not matter if the source is from peas, hemp, or various other protein rich plant sources. The fats present in meat aren’t anything special either, in fact much healthier fats are available from flax, hemp. Fish is also an excellent fat, although also not vegan. I’m not a vegan. I feed my dogs meat. The point of this response is that though a dogs natural wild diet may be carnivorous, good science simply does not show any true benefit or reason that one MUST feed their dog meat in order to achieve optimal health.

  • Hi Marilyn Whitelock, welcome to DFA!

    I’m sorry to hear about your best friend 🙁

    “They (dogs) are carnivors and need meat”

    I admire your passion to feed a dog a species appropriate diet! I feel the same way about dogs too, and cows, and pigs, and chickens, and sheep, and….

    As a matter of fact, I believe that ALL animals should be fed a species appropriate diet and be treated with the same consideration, respect, and love with which we treat our dogs 😉

  • Marilyn Whitelock

    we as humans can be vegans , but PLEASE DO NOT do this to a dog They are carnivors and need meat . If you truly care for your dog ask your vet to help you decide what is best for your friend. They depend on us to do what is best for them regardless of our choices for ourselves. I recently lost my best friend , a Doberman who lived a long and happy life let yours do the same

  • DanT522

    List of living carnivores mammals
    All feliforms, such as domestic cats, big cats, hyenas, mongooses, civets.
    Almost all caniforms, such as the dogs, wolves, foxes, ferrets, seals and walruses.
    The important part is we all love our pets be it carnivore or omnivores.

  • theBCnut

    You should read up on what is required for testing, and then you won’t be so impressed. Both of these companies do go beyond the minimum, thank God, because the minimum to pass the test is a very short feeding trial, and as long as no more than a certain percentage of the dogs die, they pass. Pretty useless, IMO.

  • Scott Hamtil

    learned this: 2 companies actually do Food Trials on all their foods. Hills/science Diet and Purina..
    This process is expensive as theymake 100’s of different foods.
    AAFCO itself is not very great. But the testing is best thing. But NO ONE IS AWARE that 100’s + companies DO NOT EVEN CARE enough to TEST. It takes 6 or more months to test and $35+ thousand per food done each time food is made.
    There is a thing called FIXED FOMULATION which means food ingredients can change WITHOUT a label change = NO WAY TO TELL if the bag you have is ACCURATE.
    Call Hills pet food and or check their web site. Look up Y/D diet (for cats). It CURES A Thyroid disease that is difficult deadly disease. No other Company cares. For 20+ years they’ve made t/d or Oral Care that BRUSHES PET TEETH and for young pets alleviates the suffering because pet owners never brush the teeth. Any company can copy this food bud DO NOT.
    Sorry to blab. Hills is one of a few honorable companies. They do not mislead their customers. They started making k/d food in 1940’s. They still help pets with kidney disease. They simply are THE ONLY company I trust. Purina does test their foods BUT they still have lower end products.
    Hills has excellent and then High End foods which cost more because of expensive ingredients and processes and extensive study and research. OK I’ll stop now.
    I had a friend ask me about a “new” food to feed her pets. “It is ‘better’ her sister days. And they will “have fewer stools” . AAarggg -My friend has had her pets (4) on hills and have had beautiful coats and perfect health.
    I have had tonnes of clients put their pets on “better” foods. Their urin tests 70-90 % are way off normal.
    They have crystals which cause infections and pain. The fact the food is simply tossed in an oven then poured in a bag (no 6 month test) is meaningless. I (politely) tell my clients “we make much more money on Vet Services” on pets on these unbalanced diets…
    I work in Costa Mesa CA at a place called Dover Shores (Veterinary Hospital) I’m there typically in afternoons on Tu, W,Fr if you had a specific

  • Mark “Vicque”

    The biological family Canidae /ˈkænɨdiː/ [2] is a lineage of carnivorans that includes domestic dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes, and many other extant and extinct dog-like mammals. A member of this family is called a canid (/ˈkænɨd/, /ˈkeɪnɨd/).[3] The family Canidae is divided into two tribes: the Canini (dogs, wolves, jackals, and some South American “foxes”) and the Vulpini (true foxes).

  • Kelly

    Dogs are carnivores. While they can digest grains, like an omnivore, their makeup is still carnivorous. They lack the grinding molars we have. They also lack the enzymes in saliva that begin breaking down like humans. Dogs only begin to digest food when it reaches the stomach and its acids. A quick visit to a veternary website confirms this.

  • Daniel Sanford

    They put salt in dry dog foods and do not list the amount. It must be used as a preservative. I wish you would do a comparison on the amount of salt in dry dog food.

  • Daniel Sanford

    Dogs are omnivores, they put peas, potatoes, blueberries, in their dry dog food formulas. Now cats are carnivores.

  • Shayberrie

    My vet told me to look at the ingredients in dog food and only get ones that have meat as the first ingredient. So I’d say a vegan diet would not be good for a dog.

  • el doctor

    Hi Chris

    “I would never harm my animal because of my choices.”

    What about the harm that is inflicted on the animals that makeup the commercial pet foods that people choose to feed their pets?

    Don’t those animals deserve the same consideration we give to our dogs and cats?

  • Chris

    Just because you are vegan does’nt mean your animal is. Remember humans have choices but animals diets do not change because we choose to not eat meat. If you tried to give a cat vegan diet you would kill it while dogs stomachs are different you can harm them by not giving them meat. There ancestors are wolves guess what they eat meat. I am vegan and understand where you are coming from but I would never harm my animal because of my choices. I love them and we might not like it but they do eat meat.

  • theamericandreamdavidporter

    Please post a list of carnivorous canines.
    You can’t.

  • theamericandreamdavidporter

    No canines especially dogs are not carnivores.
    Don’t be foolish!

  • A MW

    The dog won’t die. Sheesh people are ignorant. I too am vegan and have fed my animals that way on and off over the years as well. Halo has a food that is suitable, so does the Dick VanPatten line. Currently I feed them a duck based food and a vegan one mixed. It’s your dog, just keep him healthy with wholesome foods, exercise and regular vet visits. Good luck to you 🙂

  • dh51334

    Don’t be so foolish!! Dogs will suffer and die quicker on a vegan diet. Dogs are carnivores.

  • Ttoe

    There’s an easy way to settle this contradiction with yourself. Because he/she is your pet, you can ensure that all of the meat it eats was killed by humans because that is far more humane than your pet killing his food if he/she lived out in the wild.

    So, the fact that he/she is your pet instead of living in the wild automatically means all of his/her food is being killed far more humanely than it would have been if he/she wasn’t born to depend upon humans for survival.

    Dogs can live on a vegan diet, but it’s not healthy for them. They don’t get the vitamins, minerals, fats, and proteins they require, They develop diabetes, heart problems, health issues, all those things people develop from eating too many carbs all of the time, carnivores develop them even easier on too many carbs in their diet all of the time.

  • Ttoe

    The guy’s kind of being silly. He has a dog, a carnivore, and wants to feed it a vegan diet.

    He’s either young and naive, or he realizes what that’s silly and he’s literally considering being harmful to his dog anyway just because he feels sorry for animals being killed to feed it.

  • Why did you feel the need to not only not be helpful, but to be hurtful? You have no idea of his/her situation, yet you harshly judged/ They came to find out the best answer for her/his situation; that’s why these forums are here. Plenty of vegetarians have dogs-they generally love animals more than the average person. The writer has a dilemma, so asked if a vegeterian diet was possible for his/her pet. Simple. Possible too. It’s really easy to be nice. You probably meant well, but consider the writer’s perspective. If you can’t help, don’t harm please. Thanks for listening.

  • Tupppi

    Jane

    Subject: Re: Comment on AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles

  • Mike Hayes

    Then maybe you shouldn’t have gotten a carnivore for a pet. Humans are omnivores so we have the option. If you can’t handle feeding a meat-eater what it evolved to eat then maybe give it away to someone who’s going to treat it like it deserves.

  • JeremyScott10

    I spoke with Certified Humane..the same company Whole Foods uses… and they certify Primal, Freshpet and Aunt Jenis. That was a few years ago and things change, other foods may have been added so you may want to contact them. There’s also American Humane Certified but I haven’t spoken to them. There may be others but I’m not aware of them. Great that you have chickens! and horses 🙂 Good luck.

  • Sue Crane

    Rammsteinfan, Thank you for your respect for life. It’s a moral conflict for me to love carnivores. It was especially difficult after my first two rescued dogs arrived at my horse farm where I was keeping a flock of beloved pet chickens )o: Have you found any food that is labeled as humane by a reputable non-profit?

  • maryhall103

    All vegans must come to the realization that we humans can modify our diets healthy around no true meat…but as animal lovers our dear dear pets must have meat to live…it is indeed a heart wrenching and dual cruel part of living to have this reality. We cannot fight it to have our pups and kitties…we must find as said above … free range and no cruel methods to feed our pets with other animals. It still is sickening…the world will never be what we wish in our hearts as a perfect world.

  • chilly

    Has anyone ever heard of feeding dogs kangaroo cocknballs?

  • chilly

    I only feed my dog chicken cocknballs. She loves them.

  • Ang shermanazi

    Hey Rammstein (the band) sucks by the way. You should take some of that energy your using to protest Mother Natures Menu choices for predatory animals and find a real band to like. Umm ……just wondering, If I were willing to pay for you to take a trip to Africa would you possibly go on a Safari, get out of the jeep and explain your Vegan ideals to the Lions? Particularly a female who is nursing small cubs? You know what a male will do just fine actually so take whatever is available! It really is your duty since wild lions do not have access to books and people who are beyond imaginable intelligence levels as you clearly are (besides your music choices). That would be very humanitarian of you Ramalamadingdong you should think about it! You should also check your soy levels, it seems you may be in estrogen overload or P.M.S. ultra mode. You see one day you’ll learn that everything should be in moderation and too much of anything is negative, that includes soy milk Rambolena. Probably time to meditate and center your chemicals a little bit. Let me know about that Africa gig ; / PEACE!

  • Tupppi

    I used to look after a beautiful GSP who had allergies so severe her nose was dry and peeling. Her owner gave me antibiotics, antihistamines, some other medication, and SD pet food containing Ethoxyquin which had been recommended by the vet. I read that Ethoxyquin had been banned in Japan because of causing allergies! I threw it all out and conducted an exclusion diet to establish she wasn’t allergic to any food. Eventually she ate everything my dog ate, mostly raw vegetable smoothies and meaty bones, and her allergies disappeared. She was insanely healthy, a real athlete. Her owner always criticised me but I said if she stays with me she gets the best I can give her. After 10 months he was able to take her back but a few weeks later he called me to ask what I had done to get rid of her allergies, which had reappeared. I told him what to feed her but I suspect he didn’t listen. People are garbage.

  • Tupppi

    As a neutral person reading these comments, you sound really nasty. Get some manners. People have different opinions. Live and let live.

  • Pitlove

    Ingredients in Iams lamb and rice:

    Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Grits, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Flax Meal, Monosodium Phosphate, Salt, Fructooligosaccharides, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, L-Carnitine, Rosemary Extract, Citric Acid.

    you’re feeding a food that contains waste and run off from the human food industry, not to mention can contain roadkill and euthanized shelter pets and you are lecturing people about feeding a QUALITY high protein raw diet? Now I’ve seen everything

  • Pitlove

    are you under the age of 18? seems like it to me. at my job we aren’t allowed to sell any live animal to anyone under the age of 18. Labs seems to be right. Maybe you shouldnt have a dog.

    I was raised from birth vegetarian, but I will never force my dog to eat the same way as me. You think it’s inhumane to slaughter and eat animals, well it’s inhumane not to care what diet your dog is biologically suppose to eat because it “grosses you out”

  • aimee

    Nope I meant what I said, thriving!!!

  • JeremyScott10

    I understand your dilemma. We compromise by choosing foods that are certified humane or free range. Orijen, Primal, Stella and Chewys, Healthy Pet Products (distributed by Raw N More), Trudog, Freshpet and Aunt Jenis all have humane options…call to find out which meats are humanely sourced. Also, deer, wild boar and bison are usually free range and there’s wild caught fish. It sucks that animals are killed but at least these lived free.

    I really respect Dr. Karen Becker, who is herself veg, but believes dogs and cats should not be.

    Good luck and thanks for caring about animals.

  • Dori

    That was also my thought because otherwise I was somewhat stumped.

  • LabsRawesome

    I’m sure the upvote you got was because you said you’re leaving. I would upvote for that reason too, but I wouldn’t want anyone to think that I was agreeing with anything else you said.

  • LabsRawesome

    You were not attacked by anyone. You are the one posting rude comments.

  • LabsRawesome
  • Dori

    How was that insulting? I honestly don’t see it. There was a person here on DFA that lived solely to promote Fromm and bash all other dog foods. He/She (we’ve never really know whether male or female, I don’t think) pops up every few months to sing the praises of Fromm and, once again, put down other foods. Thought you might be that person back again because he/she has been missing for a while. If you’re not, then I shall apologize to you. I still don’t see it as an insult, but I am sorry if you felt insulted by what I said.

  • Dori

    Please tell me where and what I posted and to whom, where I put people down and sounded as if I thought I was smarter than others. Everyone that knows me here on DFA, and I’ve been here quite a few years now, so they know me well, know that I have never ever thought any such thing. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite is true. And as a matter of fact, if it wasn’t for Dr. Mike and the great number of posters that have taught me along the way…..and I still have so much to learn…..I don’t know what condition my dogs would be right now. I’m pretty sure Hannah would no longer be with us. I have been corrected, or shown a different route, many times over the years. I listen to advice constructively and the research and try to see how it would fit in with our dogs and correct what I may have either misunderstood or just plainly doing completely wrong. I try to pay it forward here on DFA as most others do. We were all pretty much novices and came upon DFA when we were stumbling and looking for answers and for help. I’m grateful to all here who have helped my girls along the way and continue to help me and others. None of us are better or smarter than others. Some have a lot of knowledge in differing areas and I for one am thrilled that they have chosen to continue to post and help me and others here on this site. They don’t need to do it. They are paying it forward.

  • Rammsteinfan

    Well Mike when you allow people like Dori and Labsrawsomme to say what ever they feel why do you not warn them. I asked a simple question and was attacked by those two. Anyhow I will not be posting on this site anymore it is just too one sided and I get accused of posting rude comments yet they seem to run this site and can say anything they want. Thanks for allowing me to participate but I am sure everyone will be happy that I am leaving this site.

  • Rammsteinfan

    Wow Dori and you claim your not insulting

  • Rammsteinfan

    I am a she and yes I own 5 German Shepherds and have so for years. I love my dogs and would not do anything to harm them. And I am not sure what you have against PETA but I am a card carrying member and proud of it.

  • Rammsteinfan

    And Labsrawesome was not belittling in her post about a vegetarian diet for dogs. Basically we are too stupid to own a dog if we don’t feed them dead animals. Maybe you should read her post again. And you Dori have a tendency to put people down like we are not as smart as you. I asked a simple question and everyone except Aimee and Shannon came out like a swarm of bees. Geeze

  • Rammsteinfan

    Frankly I don’t care

  • Rammsteinfan

    Thanks Dog-Obsessed your post is very helpful

  • Rammsteinfan

    Thanks Aimee your information has been very enlightening

  • Dori

    One more thing. Labs Rawsome was speaking about feeding dogs species appropriate meals. What makes you think she’s nor a vegetarian like yourself?

  • Dori

    I’m still somewhat inclined to believe he’s our reincarnated Fromm Troll advocate. He’s been missing for awhile so it was pass time he showed up again. He was a little better disguised this time around.

  • aimee

    Rammsteinfan,

    I myself am not vegetarian but try to limit animal products in my diet. As I see it, the animal’s life is taken to fulfill a human market.

    Yet people consume very little from an animal, limiting themselves to primarily skeletal muscle and this leaves a lot of “byproduct” ( organs and parts discarded by fickle man) available to nourish our pets with.

    Once that life is taken, I see it as respectful to not have any of that sacrifice “go to waste”

    Dogs can be fed as vegetarian, and it is easier to do so than to feed vegan. I think dogs have a higher sulfur containing amino acid need than humans do and those amino acids are not as plentiful in plant protein making it more challenging to feed a dog as a vegetarian vs a person. If you choose this route do so under guidance of a veterinarian. There are companies out there making vegetarian foods that may not be appropriate.

  • LabsRawesome

    Probably a PETA supporter, that doesn’t even own a dog. He’s just here to cause problems.

  • LabsRawesome

    I’m not one bit angry. Just speaking the truth. I think you are the one that’s angry, because the truth hurts. 🙂

  • Dog_Obsessed

    I am vegetarian, but I do not feed my dog vegetarian and never would unless it was for a severe medical reason. I do not eat meat myself because I can be healthy without it, but the same is not true for dogs. They can survive on a vegetarian diet, but they can’t thrive; meat is the biologically appropriate diet for them. Learn more about this here: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/

  • Dori

    WOW! Seriously Rammsteinfan. You wonder why people get angry or annoyed at your posts? It’s because you are insulting. No one here to my knowledge has belittled you or insulted you. Trust me, we have had ample reason to do so but we have refrained to lowering ourselves to your level. You keep telling us that you are done posting on DFA but, yet, you continue to do so. No one here is taking you seriously in any way shape or form. You can respond to my post any way you’d like to, I could care less. You appear to insult people that do not agree with you. Quite childish behavior.

  • The Dog Food Advisor community encourages “courteous critiques, polite debate and calm disagreement”.

    Unfortunately, your recent remarks compel me to remind you to please respect Our Commenting Policy.

    And be sure to keep in mind we delete comments that exceed the boundaries of courteous behavior. This includes remarks that are rude, disrespectful, mean-spirited, profane or otherwise lack good manners.

    Posting here is a privilege. Please consider yourself duly warned.

  • aquariangt

    You’ve spent a week insulting people on this site. You should move along. Your opinions have thus far been A. Unfounded and B. Aggressively uninformed.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Here’s a link discussing the pros & cons of soy in a very neutral manner:
    http://www.petcarerx.com/article/can-dogs-eat-soy/1572

  • Crazy4dogs

    Did you mean surviving?

  • Rammsteinfan

    Thanks for your input I appreciate it

  • Rammsteinfan

    Wow why so angry could it be the burgers you stuff in your big mouth.

  • Rammsteinfan

    Thanks Aimee you are very kind to pass along this information. I am a vegan and it was very hard to feed my dogs animal products. I am going to give it a try. Thank you again.

  • LabsRawesome

    I seriously doubt a dog is “thriving” on hydrolyzed soy protein. No way in hell.

  • aimee

    I personally haven’t but one of my friends feeds vegetarian. He uses a variety of dry vegetarian diets, primarily Royal Canin and Natural Balance, and also adds toppers of eggs and cheese gives peanut butter in Kongs.

    I just thought of another person who feed vegetarian. After many months of her dog having continual GI problems she took her veterinary internist’s advice and put her dog on a hydrolyzed soy diet and finally all her dogs problems are resolved. That dog did so well that she decided to change her other dog to the vegetarian diet as well.

    All these dogs are doing very well and are thriving!

  • LabsRawesome

    If you don’t want to feed a dog a species appropriate diet then you shouldn’t have one. Period.

  • Crazy4dogs

    Dogs really do better with meat in their diet. They don’t process plant based protein as well as they process animal based protein.

  • Rammsteinfan

    Has anyone tried a vegetarian diet for their dogs. I am a vegan but I feel like I defeat the purpose by feeding my dogs dead animals. Thanks

  • Rammsteinfan

    I feed Fromm Gold Large Breed puppy small kibble and they thrive on it. No intestinal problems and their coats are beautiful. Give it a try I think you will like it. By the way all ingredients are made in the USA. Hope this helps. Diane

  • Judge and Jury

    Thanks so much for that information! Very helpful!

  • DogFoodie

    It’s an all life stages food, so it would be fine for a puppy. Just be sure you’re choosing a formula with an appropriate Calcium level for your LBP in growth phase. I’d probably choose Surf & Turf.

    Here’s a list of foods that would all work. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit

  • Judge and Jury

    I have a 5 month old Golden puppy and find that she is just not satisfied with her puppy food. Has anybody fed Fromm 4-star to a puppy of this age?

  • Sherry

    re: vaccinations
    I am in the camp with those who believe we may be vaccinating too often. However, there are many factors to consider. We have simply read as much as possible and found a vet we trust.

  • Stacy hager

    Hi ,
    I have been researching this topic for going on a year now, I have been cooking my own dog food , and have tried the raw meat diets ( which are best for our dogs ) but I can’t take the mess and 2 of my 3 dogs wouldn’t eat it….they ate cat poop once, but wouldn’t eat raw meat…go figure! Anyway, I hate cooking so shopped around some more and found “freshpet”. It’s refrigerated dog food that uses human quality meat in the meals. It is cheaper than the best canned meals, and my babies love it!! It’s at almost any big name grocery in the dog food section in a small fridge. I highly recommend it!!! Good luck !

  • DogFoodie

    You bet!

    You could also take a look at canned foods as an option. Pure Balance canned foods are very good quality and available at Wal-Mart for $1.25 per can or less or Nature’s Domain canned foods are available at Costco, if you’re a member there for about .75 cents per can.

    Make the transition slowly, adding a small portion of the new food to a reduced portion of the old. Give his system time to adjust and make sure his stool quality is good before increasing the new food and further decreasing the old. If he does get a bit of loose stool, add some plain, canned pumpkin puree to his food to help firm his stool.

    Good luck!

  • Amanda Walton

    thank you very much & price is not an issue when it comes to my baby brother just wanna make sure its good for him and aafco approved since moist & meaty isnt and purina are having issues with there products thank you again and I will def check it out 😀

  • DogFoodie

    If you need a soft food, Amanda, check out FreshPet. It’s a quality food that’s generally ready to find. They carry it at my local Target, Wal-Mart and groceries stores as well as pet food stores. It’s very good quality so you’ll definitely pay more than you were paying for the Moist & Meaty.

  • Amanda Walton

    my mother has been feeding purina moist and meaty to our dog for a few years now…my mother passed away last year and I have took completely responciblity for her dog due to the issues with purina beneful right now I choose to do some research on moist & meaty and came across this which has me very worried because my mothers dog has been sick for well a few years now smh I dont know what I should do to report this let alone what soft dog food I should switch him too…if anyone can help I would greatly appreciate it!

  • Roberta Atkins

    Hi Dori
    I have tried stainless steel but she doesn’t care for them plus she has this strange issue with the circumference of a bowl. I am using Corelle. She is using a 6 cup oblong casserole for water and creme brulee dishes for her food. I have tons of each so I run them through the dishwasher after each meal. I do find the water tends to stay cooler in the ceramic bowl. No Plastic of any kind even when making a batch of her food it’s made in glass. Thanks for the tip I just have a weird dog.

  • GSDsForever

    Oh my goodness, heck yeah it is! Smh.

    Labs is absolutely right & this is important enough to have put in bold.

  • LabsRawesome

    Getting advice on vaccinations from you is like getting vaccination advice from the 1990’s.

  • Dori

    You say “some say there is a 1 in 20,000 chance, others say modifications have resulted in a 1 to 50,000 chance of developing sarcomas. As I’ve said, sarcomas at vaccine site are not issues to me. But I prefer that none of my dogs be the 1 in 20,000 or the 1 in 50,000. Some canine is going to be that 1. I prefer it not my any of my girls. Someone has to be the “1” yes??? It’s easy to throw those numbers around but no so easy when it’s your dog that is that one in whatever number. It would be devastating and not just a statistic.

  • Dori

    Look Denny, please understand that I am not trying to be difficult with you or contrary for the sake of keeping this thread going. But I just thought I’d mention one more thing that I should have added to my earlier post to you because your brought it up just now. We are a “shoe free” home. Everyone, including repairmen, contractors, nurses, family, friends. EVERYONE, with no exceptions, is required to remove their shoes at the door before entering my home. If they don’t, then they need not come into my home. If repairmen don’t want to do this then I politely let them know that they cannot enter and let them know that I will call someone else that will happily oblige. Everyone that knows me and that works in my homes knows me and knows my rules about wearing shoes in my home. There are no exceptions for anyone. We have been a “shoe free” home for the past 36 years so I have no fear that people will be “dragging” parvo into my home.

    What you don’t seem to want to see is that there very well can be exceptions to re-vaccinating dogs if it is not needed in a particular situation. I’m quite sure that there are a lot of irresponsible pet owners who probably do need to re-vaccinate their animals and I personally know some. I’m also sure that there are people that cannot afford to pay for titers and if the results come back as inadequate they cannot then afford to pay for the vaccines also. As I’ve said, I’m not in that financial situation nor am I an irresponsible canine owner. There are many many canine owners that are in the same financial situation as I. We can afford to do both if needed. Of course if titer results came back inadequate for any of my dogs and their vet suggested that it was time to re-vaccinate said dog then I would do so. I am very respectful of my canines in all aspects of their lives and want no harm to come to them, certainly not from my being stubborn about any subject that would concern them. I am, and have always been, open to differing opinions and experiences. I’m a voracious reader and certainly all the information I have does not come from reading on line. That would be silly and lacking in total common sense. Anyone can put on line whatever the mood strikes them whether it is true or not or they just made it up themselves. I research and research and research and then come to my own conclusions as to what is the best avenue to take for my dogs. My dogs vet, who by the way practices traditional medicine, does titers and accepts them and tells clients when it is time to revaccinate if the titers were to be too low. The county that I live in accepts titers for all core vaccines. Yes, that includes rabies also. My dogs have been recently vaccinated for rabies so I’ll address that subject in two years when the that times comes around.

  • aquariangt

    I actually didn’t have to google. I regularly read articles that apply to my dogs and keep the ones that are potentially applicable. I don’t see anywhere that they are talking about breeders in those articles? But there are quotes and links within them from vets.

    You mostly are just refusing to read information, and your comment on you being up to date on the most current information…that seems a bit off to me. I never made the ignorant claim, but based on this last post, perhaps I will. I never said anything about titers being safe or not-but you are making a claim that without fail, vaccines are safe.

    I should have assumed that you would immediately lump all breeders together and saying that they can’t give advice (not one myself-but I have an unaltered bitch, have at it as you will). In regards to your getting advice from breeders-most reputable breeders probably have more experience and education than you do.

    Everything else you’ve said is very stereotypical repetitions from a shelter vet-and a low cost clinic is essentially that. Not that there is anything wrong with any of that, but lumping all breeders together is a bit close minded, ya? The whole problem with everything you’ve said is you refuse to believe that there is any other viewpoint on the topic of vaccines (and im making an assumption here, but I’ll throw spaying and neutering into the mix), but I have yet to see you give me any information that would make me sway my opinion.

    Best of luck in your career.

  • LabsRawesome
  • LabsRawesome

    You did too. Dr. Google

  • Denny Gieck

    I think I mentioned there is a debate surrounding adjutants in dead virus vaccines. Some say there is a 1 in 20,000 chance, others say modifications have resulted in a 1 to 50,000 chance of developing sarcomas.

    If you don’t want adjutants, get the modified live vaccine. Simple correction.

    I would still re-vaccinate for safety. You can drag parvo into your home with the soles of your feet. Rabies (in my area) is mandated by law–not sure what your laws say. But I would seriously consider getting a parvo vaccination for your babies.

    Parvo is huge killer in my area and elsewhere. I deal with it everyday I work and it’s disheartening to see.

  • Denny Gieck

    Hello, Doctor Google. You’re getting your veterinary advice from breeders no less. Yes, that’s a reputable source of information.

    Getting veterinary advice from a breeder is like getting gynecological advice from a pimp.

    And you say I don’t have education regarding this subject–you claim I’m ignorant. Geez, learn some modesty, man. I’ve attended lectures with the latest information on this subject and there IS a fair discussion to be had regarding adjutants and the potential (yet very rare) risk of sarcomas that only apply to vaccines with dead viruses–Not modified live.

    By the way, I never said titers weren’t “safe”. That doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense. I said they cannot accurate tell if your dog is resistant to illness, such as parvo, for example.

    And no, you cannot “over vaccinate”. You can keep saying it, but it’s not real. Telling me I don’t have education of the subject doesn’t fly either. It’s a soundbite: nothing more; nothing less. Vaccines only build up immunity. Modified live viruses are completely safe, and you have yet to define one problem to giving your dogs vaccines–you just want to avoid giving your dogs vaxx by using titers–which I also said cannot accurately tell if your dog has immunity.

    Now, I never claimed to be an expert, but you need to come down from your high horse and stop pretending to be an expert just because you Googled some information online–because that’s exactly what you did.

  • LabsRawesome

    One thousand down votes.

  • Dori

    I’m a raw feeder also. Just wanted to mention that the best bowls for food and water for your dogs are stainless steel made in the USA. They don’t rust and there is no chance of getting faint hairline fractures that would be naked to the eye (unless under magnifying glass I suppose). Bowls that we ourselves use can also get this cracks in the glaze after time and cause bacteria to hide. I also used to use ceramic bowls, then switched to human bowls, then finally found stainless steel bowls made in the USA. They are a much denser stainless steel. Most stainless steel bowls on the market are from China, very thin and rust and contain who knows what. There have been recalls of stainless steel bowls made in China in the past.

  • aquariangt

    Over vaccination is certainly a thing, and choosing to ignore it but saying people should automatically discredit that shows a lack of education on the subject. I do not agree that every person should do it, you must choose what’s best for your dog-but they are certainly a valid argument. I would also disagree with comparing the foundation of a house to vaccines, as the foundation of the house is what it’s built on, and vaccines would be assisting in reinforcing something, so genetics, structure, et all would be more akin to the foundation of a house. Many experts do say that the memory cells do hold the antibody immune responses as well.

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/titer-testing/

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_8/features/Annual-Pet-Vaccinations_20036-1.html

    I don’t understand why you would say titers are automatically NOT safe, but vaccines automatically ARE. In your veterinary assistant education, I do hope they would educate you on how titers work in comparison to just re vaxxing every year/3 years. I will say that this is not an excuse not to do at the minimum a yearly checkup.

    In the case of bordatella for example, many people’s dogs still contract it while being vaccinated, the vaccines have even said they don’t cover all strains of bordatella, so your overarching statement would be false.

    There is also something to be said for the size of vaccine in a say, Chihuahua to a say, Tibetan Mastiff.

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/a-large-vaccine-problem-for-small-dogs/
    Comments on manufacturer guarantee…well great. So do most foods. I expect products that work in any way towards the health of any being to have that kind of guarantee, and I don’t put much weight in that topic.
    All of this said, I have titered, I’ve not titered. There are certain dos I’ve had where I’ve behaved differently with vaccines, and some that I have certain things for and some that I don’t. But your original comment about someones overvaccination comment immediately discrediting…well that would be false.

  • Dori

    The following is from an article from Dogs Naturally Magazine by Dr. Karen Becker that I just finished reading.

    “Veterinary vaccines still contain thimerosal or organo-mercury compounds as adjuvants to boost the body’s response to the immunization. Needless to say, heavy metals cross the blood-brain barrier, and since your pet’s central nervous system doesn’t contain the equivalent of a liver, there’s no removing those heavy metals.” This is in relation to canine seizures and their possible causes.

    A sarcoma at the site of the vaccine is the least thing I’m worried about in giving vaccines to canines that do not need them. Canine’s that are not exposed to the diseases should not be re-vaccinated if not needed. In my opinion. I have three dogs. I do not take them to dog parks. I do not walk them on the streets. I do not put them in kennels ever. When I take them (individually) to the vet for their annuals I carry them in. My dogs weigh 5 lbs., 6 lbs., and 7 lbs. No one that comes to my home brings their animals as I’m allergic to animals. My three dogs have hair as opposed to fur. They socialize with each other in our home and our property which is completely fenced in with no access in or out for them or other animals.

    By the way, I never mentioned veterinary insurance anywhere which I do have on all my dogs and have had since they first came on the scene many many years ago. I’m glad you mentioned it. Pet owners should definitely have pet insurance. You are absolutely correct when you say it’s a great thing.

  • LabsRawesome
  • Roberta Atkins

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vet-distemper-dog/
    http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/scienceVaccineDamage.html
    I don’t vaccinate I haven’t since she was 5. As a puppy she almost died. We had to do her shots spaced and separate. She is now 14 happy and very healthy. I do titers and she has been in some hostile environments, like a place with a major outbreak of distemper and she was fine.
    Even stuff that is good for you can also be bad. It’s like taking vitamins yes there good for you but to much can harm you too I feel the same way regarding vaccines. The proof is out there.

  • Roberta Atkins

    This why I chose to go raw. Homemade raw. I really dont trust anything made for dogs. I had cute ceramic bowls for my dog that tested positive for lead ok. So now she eats out of human bowls. Understanding what the ingredients are in your dogs food is HUGE like Ethoxyquin used as an for making tires and used as a weed killer and as a preservative in dog food. Understand what the university- pronounceable things are your feeding your dog. Ethoxyquin almost killed my dog and was in a prescription diet from a vet. Read and learn our pets count on us to make the right choices in their lives.

  • Denny Gieck

    “Over vaccination” is not a “thing”. You can’t “over vaccinate” your pet in the same way you can’t give a building with a foundation that’s “overly sturdy.”

    Titers don’t tell you every about antibody response such as memory cells for example. They CANNOT tell you your animal is safe.

    Vaccines, however, ARE safe and WILL protect your animal from illness. Vaccines help insure the well being of your pet–not titers.

    My clinic helps low income owners provide healthcare for their pets and that manufacturer guarantee means an awful lot to them–as it should everyone. That guarantee is a testament to how effective vaccines truly are.

    Again, the size of the vaccine is irrelevant. It’s the immunological response that count’s. The amount of liquid in the vaccine is more important for seeing a slight rise in the skin of the patient to insure it was administered correctly and didn’t poke through the skin, for example.

  • Denny Gieck

    Having insurance for your pet is a great thing. That’s what having vaccines up-to-date means. Explain how that’s a bad thing again?

    And people are being “irresponsible” when they booster vaccines? Really?

    If you’re worried about the extremely rare chance your pet will develop a sarcoma from a vaccine, then request a Modified Live Vaccine which have no adjutants. Adjutants are the primary concern regarding this subject in the scientific community–which have been improved by many manufacturers btw.

    And titers are not all what you make them out to be. They don’t take into an account for the memory cells for example.

    If you want to waste your money on titers, that’s your call. Don’t sit on your high horse and tell people they are being irresponsible by doing exactly what they should to insure the well-being of their furrbaby.

  • Dori

    Yes, actually. The county that we live in now accepts titers for rabies. We moved to this county almost two years ago and I had just assumed that rabies law was the same for the entire state. The county that we used to live in required one year rabies vaccine which is why all three girls received vaccines last year even though we were in a different county. Ignorance on my part. Afterward was when I found out that each county dictates whether one year or three year rabies vaccine. This year when girls were due for the annuals I decided to call my county and find out exactly what they required and if they would accept rabies titers. They seem to be a bit lenient here because they told me they would accept one year or three year rabies vaccine. Whichever I felt like doing. Huh? So then I thought I’d ask about whether they accepted titers and after the animal control officer spoke to others in his department I was told that so long as I had the paperwork from a vet in this county they would indeed accept rabies titers. I was astounded and delighted. The first person that I spoke to thanked me for asking the question because no one had ever asked him that and now he knew the answer too! The reason I thought to ask was because a while back on one of the raw food FB blogs I’m on there was a woman talking about a county that she lives in somewhere in Minnesota accepting rabies titers. That was the first time I had heard that that was even a possibility. Anyway, I’m certainly glad I asked.

  • aquariangt

    Have you seen any counties that accept a rabies titer? Just curious, mine definitely doesn’t, but thankfully they do the three year. I’m sure my dogs compared to say, my sisters (Great Dane/St Bernard Mix) don’t need them as often as hers, though we both get them every 3 years 😉

  • Dori

    You seem to be more concerned about who’s going to pay ALL medical costs being covered by the manufacturer than vaccinating a dog that does not need it. In this day and age pet owners know that vaccinating a dog that already has the antibodies necessary proven by having titers done and said titers being in the normal range is irresponsible and unnecessary. Plain and simple. To think that we should continue to vaccinate our dogs continually on the off chance that our dog gets sick so that the manufacturer of said drugs can pay for medical costs is ludicrous. I can’t understand this line of thinking unless you yourself cannot afford to pay for medical costs if your dog gets ill from not doing the core vaccines (with the exception of rabies). I for one will gladly pay the medical costs out of pocket if my dog were to contract one of those illnesses. I choose to spend the money on titers than to revaccinate my dogs and also taking the chance that they will develop something else from the vaccines themselves that the manufacturer will NOT cover because they will say it had nothing to do with their vaccines.

    I don’t believe that anyone here has ever said that puppies and kittens should not be vaccinated. Of course they should. Once they’ve had their initial course of vaccines they should then forever after have titers done. That’s just being a responsible companion animal owner, not continuing to vaccinate if it’s not necessary. Rabies is a different subject as it is the law of the land. It’s also an individual’s choice to be within the law or not. Also dependent on whether your state requires one year or three year rabies vaccine and/or your county accepts titers for rabies.

  • aquariangt

    Hold on there, over vaccination is certainly an argument over a sound bite. As I stated, and you ignored, the term over vaccination is what is being discussed here, and you chose to ignore the part about the titer. Edit: because I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone here say skip vaccinating altogether, they are just taking a bit of a deeper looks at it

    Now, that may be that it’s like “super cheap insurance” but that can hardly be taken as an argument to not bother tittering and vaccinate again anyway, because that to me sounds like a way out of paying for something for your pet, which if you can’t afford veterinary care would be, to me, a trait of an irresponsible dog owner. I could care less if my dog contracted something and the vaccine company paid for it, I’d rather they be healthy. And I would be fine doling out money for whatever they have (I haven’t had any diseases that we have discussed here) but blindly vaccinating every three years is just choosing to ignore some facts.

    Why add more antibodies if they are already at a safe range?
    Why are dog vaccines administered so often compared to other things (people)?
    Why do my20 lb dogs, Dori’s 7 lb dogs, and a lab all given the same vaccine size?
    Why does none of this concern you?

  • Denny Gieck

    There is definitely a difference, but that doesn’t make either of them right.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    There are anti-vaxxers in both human and veterinary medicine, but there is a difference between being against all vaccines and believing in titers, spacing out vaccines, etc.

  • Denny Gieck

    Ah, I see. I agree, people are more reactive than proactive in Veterinary Medicine than people medicine.

  • Denny Gieck

    Yes.

    It is smart to keep vaccines up-to-date. For example, the vaccine my particular clinic administers can protect dogs from parvo/distemper for up to three years (provided the first round of shots were followed).

    Titers being used capriciously to check antibody levels is a waste of money, in my opinion–not to suggest they don’t have situational importance.

    Why check antibodies when the manufacturer of vaccinations will cover ALL costs of medical expenses related to the animal coming down with an illness to which was vaccinated?

    I want to repeat: If your furrbaby was vaccinated by a Vet against parvo, the vaccination was up-to-date, and the dog comes down with parvo despite that fact–ALL medical costs will be covered by the manufacturer. That’s supreme, supreme confidence in the power vaccinations.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    I mention titers, but didn’t really talk much about them. I definitely think they are good, and often overlooked. Of course, the dog needs to get the puppy vaccines first.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    Yes, that is exactly what I mean. By “just do it,” I meant people should vaccinate, unless there is a medical issue preventing it.

  • Dori

    I’m curious as to your thoughts on titers for the core vaccines with the exception of the rabies vaccine. If your dog gets titers done and still has the antibodies in a normal range, do you still feel that the dog should get vaccinated for those core vaccines anyway? I’ve just started following this thread and noticed that no one had asked about titers or at least I didn’t see it. Thanks.

  • Denny Gieck

    I don’t understand your post. Humans die from illness just like dogs. This is not a “just do it” thing. There are real and very serious implications to not vaccinating. Measles has returned due to anti-vaxx nonsense. Dogs die to parvo/distemper and cats to Felv all the time. If we don’t vaccinate, whether it’s primates, canines or felines, death and suffering will follow.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    For dogs I think more on a case-by-case basis, and for humans on more of a “just do it” basis. I think this is because dogs can have more variation in lifestyle than humans. Pretty much all humans are around other humans on a daily basis, but the same is not always true for dogs. Of course, there are some vaccines that should be case-by-case for humans, too. I am not vaccinated against rabies, for example, because I do not work in the veterinary profession or interact with wild animals. I do think that titers often have more of a place then people give them for both humans and dogs, and that vaccinations probably don’t have to be done as often as they are in both species.

  • Denny Gieck

    Why would you think differently? They function the same way and save lives.

  • Denny Gieck

    If you take your dog outside and let it mingle with others without a bordetella vaccines, then the dog is at risk. Yes.

  • Denny Gieck

    You don’t understand how vaccines work.

    Vaccines don’t function like a flea/tick preventative or something: “dosage” isn’t really related to success or efficacy.

    To answer your question, we first have to define which type of vaccination we are talking about.

    Is it a modified live vaccine? If it is, then the virus has been modified so it causes no harm but still triggers a response from the immune system.

    Is it a vaccine with a dead virus but an adjutant? How that works is the dead virus is in the blood stream and the adjutant causes localized irritation–which triggers a response from the immune system to attack the foreign bodies. Otherwise they will go unnoticed.

    And why are you talking about heart worm preventative? We are talking about vaccines.

    And never buy vaccines at some local market. Always get them administered by a vet to both confirm the efficacy and to be covered financially in the rare chance the animal does come down with the illness being vaccinated against.

    Something tells me you’ve been listening to Doctor Google.

  • Bob K

    Bordetella – How about walking your dog down the block in your neighborhood and your dog meets other dogs? I had a dog that got Bordatella from a trip to my saturday farmers market, another dog had it, the gestation time matched the farmers market. Rabies is mandated by law in the US.

  • Denny Gieck

    If you don’t kennel your dog or let the dog play in dog parks, then a Bordatella Vaccination is not required.

    If you’re not going to vaccinate your dog against Lepto, that’s your call. Parvo/Distemper and Rabies are my gripes.

    The rest of your comment is a non-sequitur as the term “over-vaccination” is more of a sound bite than an argument.

    EDIT: I thought you were the original poster of this discussion. My killing dogs assertion was meant for My16paws, not you. DISQUS doesn’t show the OP for some reason.

    Just vaccinate your animals and give them their boosters when applicable to fully insure they are protected. And, in the rare chance the vaccine fails, the medical treatment to fix the animal is completely free if the vaccine was administered by a Veterinarian and the animals vaccines are up-to-date.

    It’s like super cheap insurance. It’s awesome.

  • Bob K

    Over vaccination or unnecessary vaccinations is the issue. A few questions – Why does a 20lb. dog get the same dose as a 120.b dog? Why do dogs routinely get the same vaccination year after year with no proof of need or titer? Why do some dogs still get parasites and Heartworms when they take a monthly preventative? Why do I need a prescription for a monthly preventative pill that requires no refrigeration but I can buy most vaccines except Rabies at the local Fleet Farm or Farm and Fleet over the counter without a prescription for a fraction of what the Vet charges? Lots of issues with the vaccination business.

  • aquariangt

    Wonderful. Please, tell me this, if it’s part of your career path (welcome to working with animals, it’s rewarding)

    Why should I get bordatella vaccinations if I’m a responsible dog owner, who doesn’t allow my dog in a situation to get it transmitted?

    Why should I get leptospirosis vaccinations if I lived in city, and never took my dog to a location where the potential to contract it was actually applicable?

    Why if I got my titer results and the antibodies for DHPP came back as still in my dogs bloodstream, should I add more of that into the bloodstream?

    How exactly am I causing suffering and death from any of those?

    I may or may not have or adhere to anything I just said, but they are certainly all valid points as to not OVER vaccinating, because your comment about puppies and kittens would reflect NO vaccinations, correct?

  • Denny Gieck

    Yes, I do have knowledge regarding this subject as it’s a focal point of my career path. To add to that, I just returned from the West Veterinary Conference in Las Vegas just three days ago to hear the latest information available on vaccines and their efficacy.

    Bottom line:

    You’re spreading needless fear that convinces many not to vaccinate their puppies or kittens to protect them from imagined dangers.

    In other words:

    You’re causing untold suffering and you’re killing animals.

  • Dog_Obsessed

    Agreed. I think very differently about vaccines for dogs then I do about vaccines for people.

  • aquariangt

    Based on your other posts, are you comparing human vaccines and vaccines within dogs? Or do you actually have some vaccination knowledge within dogs, or other dog knowledge to put forth?

    When it comes to dog vaccines, My16paws comment on over vaccination within canines is actually not worthy of “instant discredit”

  • Denny Gieck

    Bashing vaccines discredits you instantly. Just instantly. Go find your tinfoil hat.

  • Dori

    Thank you losul. I’m equally as glad that things are working well for Turbo. I’m hoping to soon see some pics of him and your family. Peace to you and your family.

  • losul

    Hi Dori, I just now reading this post, but read over on the forum side first and replied there. Thanks for explaining for me, and very glad it ended happily!!

  • theBCnut

    WooHoo!!

  • Dori

    Sorry everyone I know this is out of line and off topic but want to reply to losul since he’s been away so long. (Don’t do that again, by the way losul!) Jim had surgery for nasal/sinus cancer near the cranium on 12/21/2012. He’s been through a batter of testing with sedation, etc. Just got the news this morning (I posted it on What Did Your Dog Eat Today thread) he’s clear and Cancer Free! Thanks for your concern and please, it’s never a burden when you are concerned and are sending best wishes. Thank you.

  • losul

    Well thank you Dori, and I’m very happy if I made you smile. 🙂

    I picked up some bits and pieces that something must be going on with your husband? I was planning, a search some posts for better understanding of whats going on.

    I hope that I don’t burden you by asking? Only the very best wishes and thoughts for you and your family, Dori.

    losul

  • Dori

    losul. So very glad to see you back on DFA. I so missed you and your humor. You make me smile.

  • losul

    A nutritionist, that would be great! !, tor me, particularly from the whole/raw foods/lower carbs canine perspective. Could I somehow selfishly persuade your specialty more so to canine rather then equine? LOL, just kidding, go forth your best interests. and don’t forget too sharing knowledge even after you become Dr. Blondebat!. 🙂 🙂

  • blondebat

    Thanks to both you and losul! I am pursuing a masters in biology and am thinking I want to concentrate on nutrition in canines and or equines. Keep the comments coming–so interesting!

  • losul

    I guess I never delved into the why’s of it, as I’ve never been willing to feeding my dog raw pork for other reasons.

    But it is a very curious and interesting thing.

  • aimee

    Did you ever find what it was about pork liver that prevented the Cu from being available? What is different between say pork liver and beef liver in how copper is handled in that it can be available from beef liver and not pork? I”m curious to know the answer to that!

  • aimee

    I just used that article as an example as copper sulfate being used in a study in dogs and on to how I find information.

    The study had a control group in which copper sulfate was fed as the copper source to provide as I remember ~ 14 mg/kg DM of Cu in the control diet. The test diet had 1.8 mg/kg DM from I presume the ingredient sources Problems were not reported for the pups on the control diet.

    Each study only gives a snapshot of information. Taken together reasonable conclusions are drawn.

  • losul

    Hi Aimee, I did read that, and have read before to that.

    The vast majority of my dogs organ meats come from non-feedlot beef, with not much depending on poultry organs, and never pork.

  • aimee

    Thanks losul,
    Did you catch the curiosity that Cu from

    some types of liver may not be bioavailable? I haven’t followed that one out to know why that would be. Another research project. : )

  • aimee

    There are gaps in nutritional research. There are studies in which the chosen nutrient level was found to be too low and there are studies that were determined to allow for normal growth. but gaps between them.

    Can you link to the reference and study in which the high level was based on pigs?

    Copper from a natural source can cause liver problems if you have a genetic disorder. It would be very difficult to get a high enough dietary copper level from natural sources to cause liver disease in an animal with a healthy liver and without a genetic disorder due to the concentration in the natural source.

  • losul

    blondebat, I accessed pages 171-173 from here, much as Aimee describd.

    from the link below, click on the first main link. (says page 171)

    https://www.google.com/search?q=nutrient+requirements+for+dogs+and+cats+copper+requirements&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl

    Good point about proper made raw diet, or really any proper whole foods diet for dogs having no need for added copper, and additional supplemented could be detrimental. In my personal opinion, completely I agree with that.

  • blondebat

    I tried The Google Books look up, but the book is not listed. NAP has it but you cannot access pages 171-172

  • blondebat

    That article had nothing to do with the daily requirements of copper in dogs. It only tested what happened when they were with held from copper at all. No news there. Coulda told them that.

  • blondebat

    So, the the safe lower limit cannot be determined either, if the higher limit isn’t determined yet.
    The AAFCO based their number on the pig study.
    copper from meat has little to no chance of causing disease in a healthy liver. It’s the added copper from minerals that is causing the problems. Hence-kibble.

  • aimee

    Hi blondebat,

    Go to google books and search for the book Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. Once there search in the book. I used the term “copper requirements” Read through pages 171-172 and you’ll find the studies used to base requirements on. When I want to read a study cited in NRC I go to pubmed and search for it.

    Here is one I found by doing that.
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S83.long

    Copper in any form can cause problems, including copper from a natural source which is why people with Wilson’s disease are recommended to avoid certain foods like liver.

    Increased copper in the liver can cause disease and liver disease can cause increased copper accumulation in the liver.

    Inherited problems with copper metabolism, Wilson’s in people or copper storage in dogs are examples of copper accumulation preceding liver disease.

    Liver disease from any cause can cause increased copper accumulation in the liver from the liver not functioning normally.

    Finally high dietary copper from any source can cause problems as well. NRC hasn’t established what a safe upper level is because the research isn’t done. AAFCO placed a limit on copper. I don’t know what this number was based on.

  • blondebat

    Hi Aimee, Do you have a link to that study? Also, the processed,chemically added form of copper is what is causing the disease. the natural form found in raw or freeze dried meat is perfectly fine.

  • aimee

    Hi blondebat,

    From the NRC 2006 Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats the requirements are based on studies done in dogs, some of which used copper sulfate as the source of copper.

  • blondebat

    Feed raw. Research raw. It is the best for your dog. Be careful of supplements such as copper which causes liver disease.

  • blondebat

    It has been recently reported that the requiremnt for copper in dogs is based on a government study in PIGS. it has also come to light that copper cause liver disease in DOGS. Be careful you don’t get the raw with added supplements because it contains copper. Feed raw and the dog gets natural copper.

  • blondebat

    Feed raw. Any kibble is death.

  • Pamela Covey

    I have a Boston Terrier with itchy skin issues. My vet had to give her an allergy shot and put her on a daily dose of Temeril, switched her food to Science Diet sensitive skin, and advised me to treat the occasional out break of scratching with a bath and cortaid. I typically bathe her every 2 to 3 weeks using a sensitive skin shampoo and conditioner on her, and try to only buy dog treats that are made from real meat without any other by products, such as chicken jerky, however she does get a greenie about once a week to help keep her teeth clean and her breath from becoming horrid. Haha
    We live on a farm, so during the warmer farming season she does tend to get into stuff like weeds, fields, garden, etc. and get irritated, and that is when the baths may become more frequent and the cortaid comes in handy. I like Doghead shampoo and leave-in conditioner the best. It seems to work well, is gentle in her, and it smells good which is always a bonus. 🙂
    I hope that this helps you.

  • Stacey

    Not true, your shouldn’t bathe that often, at least not with shampoos. A mix of apple cider vinegar and water (50-50) to rinse is helps remove allergins etc, but shampooing that often will dry out their skin. I have never had any vet suggest weekly baths and we had a dog for 12 years that was allergic to life, food related and environment. That was never suggested for her..

  • Dog_Obsessed

    Just to clarify, are you asking if they do or asking if Alexis is aware of it?

  • DogFoodie

    Are you aware if The Honest Kitchen offers “kickbacks” to vets who recommend their products?

  • Crazy4cats

    Glad to hear you found a few foods that work!

  • teresa

    Thanks , I actually went to a canine nutritionist and we were able to find a food. The new purina Beyond is grain, wheat and soy free, As for treats we found a few and she is doing much better and will eat these foods. But she is just limited, she can also have Natural Balance Duck and Potato. But ty for the advice its always good to get another opinion.

  • Crazy4cats

    I would be careful recommending foods and supplements for a dog with a health condition if you are not qualified to do so. I’m also disappointed in many vets knowledge of nutrition, but I don’t believe they all prescribe the Rx foods for kickbacks. Unfortunately, I think that is all many learn and they believe it works. Consulting a holistic vet or another vet with more education in nutrition would be best for the poster.

  • Andrew C

    As soon as I hear “prescribed food” that tells me it’s probably not something good. Most vets prescribe food based on the kickbacks they receive, not based on the health of your dog. I would look through the list of Best Grain Free Dog Foods. They will not have wheat, and most will not have corn or soy, either. It’s very easy to find ones that do not contain chicken in that list, because chicken is a common food-allergy in dogs. As for pH balance, I’m not sure where you would find that information, but you can look for ingredients like cranberries, probiotics, and vitamin C.

  • USA Dog Treats

    Hi jersey,

    Increasing vegetables and fruits would be increasing carbs.

  • jersey

    Not true. You can increase vegetable and even fruit intake. It doesn’t have to be fat and carbs. Just be VERY careful which vegetables and fruits you give your dog’s as some are toxic and fatal if ingested..

  • jersey

    I found out that using shampoo made for humans was causing an allergic reaction on both of my dogs. I only use shampoo made for dogs now and the allergic reactions stopped. Itching can also be just an allergy in general. You would need to figure out what that is to help your pet. I have a Shetland Sheep Dog (sheltie) and he has allergies that cause his ears to itch. Sometimes he gets ear infections from the allergy which need medicated drops.

  • theBCnut

    Cooking does NOT necessarily destroy prions, so that is not a valid argument for not feeding raw, but it may lead to a valid argument for being careful of where you get your meat, which we try to advocate anyways. Current practices in raising meat for human consumption(which is the only meat we suggest feeding raw) should limit the very slim possibility of a dog getting a prion disease even further.

  • theBCnut

    http://caninespongiformencephalopathy.blogspot.com/2012/03/canine-spongiform-encephalopathy-new.html

    “The canine species seems to display resistance to prion disease and no single case has so far been reported.7,8”

    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/rendered-waste-ingredients-far-more-serious-risk/
    To date, no prion disease has been discovered in dogs (though it is doubtful much research has been done to find one).

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0050623
    For example, several felid species developed prion disease (feline spongiform encephalopathy or FSE) during the bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) epidemic in the United Kingdom, whereas no canine BSE cases were detected.

    There, just in case this was an actual concern of yours instead of an irrelevant argument, I have provided some links for you to do further reading. You can find many more by googling “prion diseases in dogs.”

  • SabrinaSabrina

    .

  • theBCnut

    Yes, I put it on a public forum, in response to a specific statement. If you had actually answered that question, it wouldn’t bother me a bit, but instead you brought up something else entirely, and you are the one complaining about people answering your irrelevant argument. You are also the only one name calling and acting like a child.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    you put it on a public forum and it seems that you are not interested in an answer. You only want to argue. So, what is really wrong? Are you lonely? Or just a troglodyte?

  • Crazy4cats

    😀

  • DogFoodie

    Right? Geesh.

  • theBCnut

    You see, I DID ask Dogwhisperer. That’s my whole point.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    Maybe you should ask Dogwhisperer…or tell them. Seems like you know it all.

  • theBCnut

    I know what “prions” are, but you seem to be missing the point. Dogwhisperer said “you may be missing parasites in the meat that can be killed with high temperatures.” I was responding to a specific statement, asking a specific question. I really don’t mind one bit if you are afraid to feed a dog what a dog was intended to eat because of some disease they are extremely unlikely to get, but I was wondering if Dogwhisperer was worried about anything specific, LIKE the parasite that dogs can get from eating raw salmon or maybe trichinea from pork.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    It sounds like your dog is comparable to a human trying to eat the toast crumbs off the plate instead of having a piece of toast. That is not good at all.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    Sounds like they are being cheap. Maybe you should think about boycotting this company if they are unwilling to do anything. AAFCO approved does not have anything to do with the size of the food. They are just interested in whether it is able to be consumed by a dog without the dog getting ill. It sounds like your dog is comparable to a human trying to eat the toast crumbs off the plate instead of having a piece of toast. That is not good at all.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    Also, give him a portion of a can of no salt added green beans or peas (depending on the weight of your dog) mixed with his food. That is a low calorie solution and dogs think they are getting a treat. It is inexpensive, too. My dog is not overweight. She is just a large breed at 50 pounds. She had food issues when I first got her and I did not want her to get bloat from eating too fast so I gave her a can of green beans in her food. This slowed her down and filled her up. I did this in the evening and fed her regularly without green beans in the morning. She loves it.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    My dog has such sensitive stomach that I have only found one food she can tolerate without being sick. It is Iams lamb and rice dry food.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), “The term “prions” refers to abnormal, pathogenic agents that are
    transmissible and are able to induce abnormal folding of specific normal
    cellular proteins called prion proteins that are found most abundantly
    in the brain.” (2014). The prions are not parasites, but they are infectious and can be transmitted from raw beef to dogs if the prions are present in the beef.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    And to what temperature do you have to HEAT meat in order to kill the prion that causes the disease? In conclusion, do not feed raw meat to a dog because there are many organisms that may be present that are harmful, but that can be eliminated by cooking to the proper temperature.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    That is because it is a medicated shampoo and your dog had a skin infection.

  • Jaki

    Thanks I will try that. He gobbles down his food in seconds. He gets a 1/2 cup in am & pm. He was over weight and we have to cut his food down as per Vet. At first it was a 1/4 cup twice a day. After he loss the weight we increased it but I am ordering a good puzzle hopefully it will help some. Like you said he will eat until he pops

  • Susan

    Paul Falknor Iams was the founder of the Iams Company..

  • Dori

    Spongiform Encephalopathy is an infectious disease. It is part of the prion group of diseases. Not a parasite at all.

  • Dori

    Cesar Millan is the last person I would take advice on with any issue that any of my dogs have. I have three dogs. One is 15 years old the other two are 5 1/2. I have been bathing them every 8 to 10 days all of their lives as they have been part of my family since very very young. There has never been an issue with any of them in so far as baths are concerned. Yes, if your dog is solely an outside backyard dog than it is advised to bath them less often because they need to keep their natural body oils to help thwart the horrible weather conditions that those poor dogs are exposed to year round. If your dog is part of your family and lives in your home and sleeps on your sofas and on your bed, then they need to be bathed. Health wise it is also to their benefit to be bathed just as it is for humans. Also any and all vets will tell you if you have a dog that has environmental allergies that it is crucial to bath them at least once a week to remove any environmental allergies that they have come in contact with.

  • theBCnut

    Spongiform encechalopathy isn’t a parasite.

  • Susan

    My vet told me to bath Patch every 5-7 days as soon as he starts his scratching & rubbing on my carpet, with “Malaseb” medicated anti fungal shampoo & this stops his itch, I love Cesar Miilan but he’s better as a trainer…

  • SabrinaSabrina

    If he is a fast eater then he does not feel full even if he eats enough. Puggles and many other dogs will eat til their stomachs explode. You have to be sure there is not an underlying medical condition. I suggest getting a food puzzle which allows the dog to eat slower and also have fun.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    My hound came from a shelter and they fed her low quality food. Cesar Millan (Dog whisperer) suggests adding plain, low fat yogurt to dry dog food for healthy skin and coat. I substitute 1/4 of the dry food for the yogurt and after two weeks the dog’s skin is softer and she sheds less. This was in the Summer when shedding was bad.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    That is because the protein molecules take longer for the body to digest and the fiber makes one feel full for a long period of time compared to a low fiber diet. I know this from my own experience on the South Beach Diet.

  • SabrinaSabrina

    spongiform encephalopathy

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