[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. This is a great post that you started. A lot of good discussion.

I misread some of your previous posts here about Stella & Chewy’s. I thought it was just a customer rep who made a bad statement about taurine. The fact that they actually have that on their website is disturbing. Hopefully the geek who designed the website accidentally manipulated facts from the company employees who actually understand dog nutrition, and then they just haven’t gotten around to correcting it.
My understanding of taurine and dogs is as you described. However, I have read from numerous sources that some breeds are predisposed to taurine deficiency, and my dog with health problems is one of those breeds. So I am glad to see manufacturers adding it and I add a little more to his food – just to be safe. I’m pretty darn sure that taurine is one of those things that is not detrimental in excess. However, excesses of some vitamins and minerals in some commercials foods (line Vitamin A and Copper) has become a real concern of mine. But, I had better not digress . . .

Sounds to me like you have made a good decision to make no big changes to your dog’s food right now. Sounds like you have your hands full given the situation with your mother. I hate making changes to my dog’s food because it is disruptive for them and I’ve made many changes in the last few months that haven’t worked out. I’ve pretty much decided that I need to stay with where I have landed now for a while. I feed similar to the way you do. For the dog that has health issues and food allergies, he gets about half of his food as raw meat, plus part of a turkey neck each day. The other dog gets raw meat too, but not as much. For the other half, I feed several different brands of raw frozen and freeze dried. Purposely feeding several brands to average out in case one is not a good product.

After I made the statement I did about Stella & Chewy’s vitamin/mineral data I decided that I should go back and look at it again, since I haven’t in a few months (which is a lifetime for my brain). I have to say that it looks REALLY good to me compared to what I have been encountering with some other companies. It looks professional and I don’t see anomalies in the data. Like big differences between different recipes that can’t be explained by the food ingredients. Makes me want to go back to feeding S&C. The main problem for me is that they add such a variety of vegetables that all of the dog recipes have something my dog is allergic to. But I may need to explore some of the cat foods. I also stopped using S&C when I was going through a phase where I wasn’t comfortable with artificial phosphates, and S&C does use those. But all indications are that they are in very small amounts.
So, for what it’s worth, I still think S&C is one of the better companies out there. Thanks for mentioning your correspondence with them about WSAVA compliance. I feel good about their reply to you. IMO, having a full time certified nutritionist on staff seems unnecessary and only serves to keep smaller companies from competing with the “Big 4”. I don’t like to see that.

I have to admit that I was not really familiar with WSAVA. I had heard of it, but I’m not sure why I never got around to looking into it. Glad you mentioned it, so I googled it, and now I know. I certainly agree with their basic principles for determining a good manufacturer (except the full time nutritionist), but I’m just not sure that I can ever go back to companies like Purina, Iams, and Royal Canine because I associate them with foods that have something like corn or soy as the second ingredient. I exchanged posts with Aimee on my Raw Food Recommendations post on this topic and when she mentioned those companies my jaw actually dropped down. But, I do recognize that she has a great deal of knowledge on dog nutrition, so I am going to try to keep an open mind and see what those brands are offering these days in their premium lines.

I share your frustration about the boutique brands and marketing ploys. I’ve become really frustrated in the last 9 months or so in my quest for a brand that I can trust. Sadly, after all of my efforts I still don’t feel really great about any of the commercial foods I feed. That’s why I feed so much raw meat, and keep track of the vitamin/mineral contents of everything I feed, so I can supplement where needed. I’ve also been through the dilemma of whether brands that mostly don’t use supplements are better than those that do. I’m still back and forth, and had better not get started on that, since this post of mine is probably approaching record breaking length.

How true it is that our dogs are probably eating much healthier than us. In fact lately I pay no attention to my own nutrition. Nice posting with you. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi aimee. Your experiences bring back memories of some of mine, and sends my blood pressure up. Thanks for sharing those companies. I’m surprised actually, that you like Purina, Iams, and RC. I had written those companies off long ago as “you have got to be kidding” (regarding the ingredients). But I can see from your posts that you are quite knowledgeable, so maybe I should take another look at their premium lines. I really doubt that they are going to offer the kind of transparency that I insist on regarding % meat ingredients or % protein from meat. But maybe things have changed and I should at least explore.

I’ve gone back and forth on whether I have more confidence in large companies or small ones. In theory, I think a small company could produce a better food, but in reality I think some of them may be developing their foods without a dog nutritionist and despite their good intentions they may not have a good quality control program. Plus, a small company would be more likely to pull some of the online info stunts that you mentioned, whereas a large company with a good reputation is not going to take that risk, and what they put online is more likely to be accurate. But, all things considered, I still lean toward the smaller companies, but ones that have been around awhile.

I used to factor cost into my decisions about which dog food to feed, but now, with one of my dogs in poor health, I don’t. Whatever you want to charge me is fine, IF I feel good about your product. Sadly, I can’t say that I feel great about any of the foods I’m feeding now – even after all of my research. Fairly good about them, but not great. 🙁

[Mutts and Cats]

I came back to do some more reading.
Patricia A – you mentioned Stella & Chewy’s and some disappointing interactions with their company reps. I used to feed S&C’s and felt good about them for years. I’ve actually never had a bad experience with their customer service, but mostly stopped feeding it when I started really scrutinizing ingredients about 8 months ago (food allergies, plus some other concerns that may not be valid). I will say that in all of my reviewing of vitamin/mineral data, what I received from S&C looked pretty good. I don’t remember red flags that caused me to think the data couldn’t be trusted (as I found for many other companies). And I don’t remember any glaring AAFCO deficiencies (or excesses).

I too have gone through the agonizing decision (many times recently) of whether to dump a company due to poor customer service or suspicious vitamin/mineral data or lack of online transparency. In retrospect, I wonder if I was too hasty in some cases, because I’m realizing that my expectations have probably been too high. But, as you commented, once I discover something really concerning, it is hard to let it go.

I have to say that you and those who have posted replies here are all obviously doing A LOT of research on dog food and are well informed. We are all trying hard to do the best we can for our pups – right?

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi aimee – thanks for sharing that experience with Small Batch. Sounds like you called a problem to their attention. Or, maybe they knew about it and were hoping it wouldn’t be noticed. At least they seem to be making changes to address the problem. Although I was a little surprised that in the reply to me they indicated it would be months before they have data available again.

I have to say that I’m getting worn down by my interactions with dog food manufacturers. Since I became intensely interested in the vitamin/mineral analysis information I sure have found a lot of anomalies in the online data, or what they provide when I request it. And sometimes when I call it to their attention I get a lame response that tells me the person doesn’t understand the data and has no intention of following up on it. So, they become another company that I won’t buy from.

It also bothers me when I see that the online data never changes. When I first started looking at it I assumed that companies would be retesting every few months, or even every year, and then update what is online. But I’m realizing now that I had unrealistic expectations.

From what I’ve seen in my reviews of Steve’s online data in the last couple months, it seems that they are at least keeping the online data current. And, when I ask questions I get an immediate response from someone who actually seems interested in the problem. I just hope that continues. I don’t want to be disappointed again. 🙁

Is there a company that you have decided you have great confidence in – overall and in regards to the integrity of their analysis data?

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. I’ve been chatting with you on the Raw Food Recommendations post. This post caught my eye, and while I’m afraid that I don’t have time right now to read all of the replies, I just thought I would weigh in on this topic.
Not long after FDA first released their concerns about the connection between DCM in dogs and grain free food I had a dog die suddenly of DCM. So I jumped in and did a sh** load of reading on the subject. In the end, I concluded that most dog food manufactures were taking advantage of peas and other legumes to boost their protein numbers and increase their profits. And it made me REALLY angry that the fairly expensive brands I had been feeding were doing it too. So after that I refused to buy any dog food that didn’t disclose the percentage of meat ingredients or the percentage of protein from meat (or other animal ingredients).
As for grains, I’m on the fence. I went back to feeding just a little bit of grains for a while, but now I have a dog with some serious, elusive, health issues and I’m back to no grains. I tend to think that for a healthy dog, some grains may be good – but then again gluten grains are hard on the digestive tract, so . . . I don’t know.
I’m also a little on the fence about peas/legumes, but have decided in very small quantities they are ok. However, they are high in lectins, which I don’t dismiss as a potential problem for some dogs (and people – “The Plant Paradox”).
But I will never change my position on the issue of protein from meat. Dogs and cats need to get their protein from MEAT.
Well, I said that I would quickly weigh in and this got quite long. I will come back when I have more time and read all of the replies, because it looks like there is some good information here.

[Mutts and Cats]

Patricia A – Just thought I would follow up with you on Small Batch. I reached out to customer service for vitamin/mineral information. Here is the reply:

Unfortunately, we don’t have a shareable analysis document at this time simply due to it being in the process of being routinely updated brand-wide (we’ve had new proteins and products introduced and are due for updates to ensure accuracy).

We anticipate having these values available to share again with our customers in the coming months if you’d like to check back with us at a later date.

I like the fact that they are on top of updating their online info, but disappointed that there is nothing available now. But, I will keep checking for the new information.

[Mutts and Cats]

Ana W – thank you for your reply. This continues to be an issue that I’m unsure about, but for now I’m avoiding foods that use any artificial phosphates. I read several articles that said artificial phosphates are absorbed MUCH more readily by dogs (and cats) than phosphorous from foods and therefore the dog can end up with a calcium:phosphorous imbalance. Plus, as you mentioned, problems for dogs with kidney issues.
Incidentally, after my original post I did find out from Steve’s Real Food that they have changed the recipes for all of their dog and cat foods and no longer use Dicalcium Phosphate.
Thanks again for weighing in.

[Mutts and Cats]

Patricia A – I have read in articles from sources I consider reputable that garlic is beneficial to dogs in small amounts, as Small Batch explained to you. It does seem to me that the Small Batch customer service is quite good, in that they took the time to give you a detailed reply. I actually didn’t realize that Small Batch made freeze dried. I thought they only made frozen and the local store that carries frozen only carries their Base Blends, not the Meals.
I just now hopped on the Small Batch website and their dog meals won’t work for me because of allergy ingredients (and the garlic, but I’m softening on that), but the cat meals would work. I also notice that the cat meals don’t contain garlic. So maybe those would be nice treats for your Chihuahuas – if you aren’t already. I’m going to request the vitamin/mineral data for the cat meals and see how that looks. I’m surprised they don’t have it online. Or maybe they do and I missed it.
I like to feed a variety of brands. I feel like it reduces the risk just in case one of the brands is not as good as it seems. I’ve become pretty untrusting of dog food manufacturers, but I just can’t quite take the leap to making my own.

I hope Steve’s works for you. I don’t think I mentioned previously that I also feed the Steve’s Cat (Quest) freeze dried as treats. My dogs REALLY like that. The Cat nuggets are smaller than than the Dog, and crunchier, so might be perfect for your Chihuahua pack. To me the Quest looks fine for a dog (vitamin/minerals) if it is not the only thing they eat. The Niacin is considerably higher than a dog’s requirements, but I haven’t done any reading yet on how much Niacin is too much.

I’ll let you know if I decide to try the Small Batch Cat.
Nice having you to chat with.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Sorry for the delayed reply. I continue to have trouble knowing that there has been a reply to my posts.
Since I first posted I have definitely decided to give up on Vital Essentials. The Customer Rep I was communicating with won’t even reply to my emails anymore. I kind of softened the extent of my concerns about their online data for my posts here. The more I think about what I found, plus the lack of replies now, I don’t feel good about the company at all.

But, some positive news, I tried Steve’s and both of my dogs like it and seem to be doing well with it. I was concerned that the Goat’s Milk wouldn’t agree with them, but they seem to be ok with it. I’m feeling pretty good about Steve’s online information and their customer service too. Their online vitamin/mineral information looks professional and reasonable, and it appears that they keep it current with updates. I think there are some companies out there who do an analysis one time and just keep that info online forever.
I also like that I can order both frozen and freeze dried Steve’s from rawpetfood.com. The shipping is free if you subscribe to auto renew. The customer service there has been really good too.

You mentioned Small Batch. A local store sells the frozen Small Batch Base Blends, which is just meat, organs, and bone. I bought some of that a couple months ago and one of my dogs loved it and the other would have nothing to do with it. I too would be hesitant to feed a food with garlic. But there seem to be differing opinions out there on whether it is a good thing for dog food or not. I had one of my dogs tested for food allergies recently and he is not allergic to any meats, but is allergic (IgE reaction) to every vegetable they tested for (which unfortunately was only 5). So I assume he is allergic to many more vegetables and that makes it pretty limiting for choosing foods for him. Garlic would make me particularly nervous as I am allergic to it (IgE, from a blood test) and eating it really does cause trouble for me – much more so than my other IgE positive foods.

A couple freeze dried brands that I am feeding mostly as treats are: K9 Natural and Bixbi Rawbbles. Both of my dogs really like them. For the Bixbi, they have both dog and cat, but I feed the cat turkey recipe because the ingredients are better for the dog with allergies, plus no phosphate additives. From the online vitamin/mineral info the cat recipes appear to me to be ok for a dog – especially in small quantities. For the K9 Natural, I limit how much I feed because the Vitamin A and Iodine contents are higher than I like.

Another ingredient that I am steering clear of for now are phosphate additives (dicalcium, trisodium, etc). I’ve read that the artificial forms of phosphate are absorbed MUCH more readily than phosphate from meat, so can interfere with the dog’s Calcium to Phosphate ratio. May or may not be true, but for now it is a worry of mine – it’s always something 🙂 So all of the foods that I mentioned do not include any of those.

Well, sorry this got so long. I will do better at checking for replies in case you do.

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks for the reply Patricia A. I feel a little uncomfortable going into details about Vital Essentials, but I guess that is what this forum is for. It started with the online vitamin and mineral information, which is really important to me and I rely heavily on it. For one of the foods I found what I assumed was an error. The Vitamin E was REALLY high for one of the recipes. Like 20x higher than the other recipes. So I inquired about that and someone from Customer Service emailed me a more recent analysis, and there were huge differences in various vitamins and minerals – between what is online and what was emailed to me. Then I didn’t receive a reply when I asked about it. So at this point I don’t have any confidence in the online information.
I had fed Primal in the past. I stopped feeding the freeze dried because it has rosemary as an ingredient. One of my dogs has seizures, so I’m being extra cautious about anything that could trigger one. I stopped feeding the frozen too recently because of the sunflower seeds, which makes for high Omega 6 content. I’m trying to keep the Omega 6 content fairly low for my dog because of inflammation issues. But I’m now thinking that I feel better about Primal than Vital Essentials. I haven’t noticed any flakiness in the Primal online vitamin/mineral information. It looks very professional.

So, I’m very frustrated at this point. I ordered some Steve’s freeze dried. Hopefully it will agree with my dogs, but the goat’s milk makes me nervous.

I’m having trouble navigating this forum. I had been checking for replies to my post the last few days, by going to the original post, but there were none. I only saw your reply today when I did a search on Vital Essentials. Strange.

[Mutts and Cats]

I realize that this is an old post, but thought I would see if anyone is still watching. I’m currently going through the same dilemma regarding dicalcium phosphate and tricalcium phosphate. I had decided that I was going to avoid all forms of calcium and sodium phosphate for a while for my dog that is having health issues. But it sure is limiting to do that, so I’m now weakening on that decision. Any more thoughts out there on whether these are potentially harmful, and whether the sodium versions are worse than the calcium versions? Many sources say that Sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP) is bad news in dog food and some mention Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate (TSPP). Just the names sound worse, but I wonder if they actually are any worse than DCP and TCP.

I see that one of the replies mentions Steve’s raw frozen. Ironically, contemplating trying this food is what got me thinking about DCP again. It seems that they previously included it in their foods but possibly have stopped. The local stores who carry it show dicalcium phosphate as the last ingredient. But on the Steve’s website it is not a listed ingredient. I sent Steve’s an email asking about it but have not received a reply.
I must say that the post from Corinne J about Steve’s did get my attention. I had thought that they were pretty reputable, but I am now wondering . . .

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