[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. I will consider your suggestion of reporting my experience with this CBD Oil, but I’m not sure I feel comfortable doing it. I don’t necessarily think that the CBD Oil I was using is a bad product. I just think that my dog’s liver was particularly reactive to it. Maybe this is a sign that he is in an “almost” liver function status, and this drove him over the edge.
When I was reading CBD Oil studies in dogs I did see that some dogs (but a very small percentage) did react to it with elevated enzymes. And I remember one report that said one dog had to be pulled from the study early because of that. But it seemed like this didn’t necessarily get reported in the summary. So people just reading the summaries of reports wouldn’t realize that some dogs are very reactive.
When my dog’s enzymes first spiked I immediately thought it was probably the CBD Oil, but my vet thought that was unlikely. And I imagine if someone were doing quick research on CBD Oil for dogs they would not conclude that adverse liver effects were very possible for some dogs. It will probably just take more, larger, studies to bring that out.
Just my food for thought. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks to all 3 of you for your support. Sorry it has been awhile. I’ve been preoccupied with non-mutts/cats issues, and fighting off some depression. Unfortunately, the Keppra seems to be becoming less effective for the seizures. Last one was less than 2 weeks after the previous one. I’m going to wait until the next seizure before contacting my vet about what to do next. So now I’m back to that undesirable place of wondering when the next one will hit.
Thanks again. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. I created another topic “Dog/Cat Toothpaste”. Would love it if you would check that out and comment on my concern about ingredients, if you have time. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Since you have kindly shown an interest in my seizer, thought I would give you an update. I got the lab report for the blood draw last week, and his ALT and ALP are now back to where they were before I started the CBD Oil – about middle of the reference range. So that is a huge relief. The facts point very strongly to the CBD Oil having caused the rise, and this is a reminder of the perils of using substances with very little testing.
Also a huge relief is that it has been over a month since his last full seizure, and 16 days since the last partial seizure (or whatever those shaking episodes were). So the Keppra is really working so far. Keeping my fingers crossed that it continues to work. Thanks again for taking an interest.
I’ve been taking a bit of a break from my dog food research, but I’m sure in no time I’ll be back with more questions for you. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks for the support Aimee. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks for the reply. I feel great frustration anticipating that discussion with my vet. Almost certainly, there will be very little time for a discussion, and no revelations. I’ll just leave it at that . . .

Another morning with no shaking episode. I did not give him CBD this morning, so this is 3 days without. Maybe the CBD was not helping after all. Maybe the Keppra is starting to work. Maybe the episodes have nothing to do with anything except a random brain glitch. This is so frustrating.

He is due for another full seizure so I will be on pins and needles until that happens. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate your comment on Rescue Remedy. I have felt that it helps him after a seizure so I do hate to discontinue it now – especially after the cluster.

This shaking (without a full seizure) is definitely much more intense than a tremor. And completely out of his control. But it has become a little less intense since the first couple times it happened. The first couple times he would also pant for a minute or two after it stopped, but now he just takes a deep breath when it stops and then starts napping, but with subtle signs of discomfort.

When he has a full seizure, the progression every time is this: (1) he starts looking around like he hears something, for 3-5 seconds; (2) shakes violently for 3-5 seconds; (3) tonic phase of seizure where he goes rigid for 15 seconds or so; (4) clonic phase with paddling of all limbs and much foaming at the mouth, for about 1 minute. Afterwards he remains lying down, eyes wide open and looking scared to death, and pants REALLY heavily for 5 minutes or so.

The first couple shaking episodes (without a full seizure) I think it started with looking around first, but I’m not sure. Now, I don’t see him doing that, or if he is it is more subtle.

The lack of the appetite in the morning has come and gone in the last year, but has been pervasive for the last few weeks. Until a couple months before the seizures started he always had a good appetite. His appetite first started to wane when he was on Rimadyl for a few weeks, and the lack of appetite was most noticeable in the morning. Since then, there have been so many changes (food, supplements) that could have upset his stomach that it is hard to sort it all out. One thing that has been pretty consistent since the seizures started is that he is consuming more fat than he was previously, so I really have to wonder if he has developed digestion problems centered around that. I have cut back significantly on the fatty foods in the last few days, and stopped the MCT Oil. Yesterday he had no breakfast, and today a small one but less fatty than before. No shaking yesterday or today. But, two data points is far from conclusive. 🙁

On your CBD Oil pharmacokinetics question – I have not read much on that, but I do have a 2019 study (published in Animal) in my voluminous collection of seizure reading. They found “…time to maximal concentration (Tmax) of 1.4 h and 2 h, for dogs and cats, respectively” and “… half- elimination rates of approximately 4 h in dogs”

Back when I was giving him a full dose of CBD Oil, he got it in the morning typically about an hour before eating and in the evening right before eating. I had stopped the CBD completely on 1/20. He then had the first cluster of 3 seizures on 2/6 and the first shaking episode on 2/9. I restarted the CBD on 2/10, in the morning only, at a lower dose. None yesterday and today.

I’m not sure that I mentioned this before, but he has been on SAMe (800 mg/day) since the first high enzyme bloodwork. He gets that in the middle of the day.

I could go on and on, but will control myself. I imagine you do have other things to do. Thanks for taking the time to consider and comment. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. I had another revelation about my dog’s shaking episodes that I wanted to run past you. To see if you could help me brainstorm a bit. I am of course going to discuss this with my vet when I see her next week, but I am hoping to do some experimenting before then that will help with a diagnosis.

This morning I did not give the CBD Oil and he did have a shaking episode. That could very well have been a coincidence, or maybe the CBD is helping, but in a different way than what I was assuming.

I’m starting to think that these almost daily shaking episodes are not a seizure, or a pre-ictal almost seizure, but a digestion problem. Possibly liver issues, or some other ailment that is causing digestion problems. The shaking episodes are happening 5-20 minutes after he eats (but only the morning meal). That was not the case with his real seizures – some of those were before and some after. For those, it seemed to be more a time of day factor (~ 1.5 hours after I get up).

I’ve also noticed that since the daily shaking episodes started, it seems that they are becoming less intense and don’t last as long. That could be the CBD Oil helping, and if the shaking is caused by digestive problems maybe the CBD he was getting about an hour before eating is helping in that way (???).

So I am going to start experimenting with his breakfast. Making it smaller and less fat. He generally doesn’t even want to eat breakfast anyway, but I talk him into it because I didn’t want hypoglycemia to be a factor for seizures. So I purposely try to get him to eat before the time that he generally has a seizure, and once he starts eating then he eats pretty well. Maybe I was taking the wrong approach. If you have time to offer any thoughts, that would be great. And if you don’t have time, I completely understand. I know that I have become rather demanding of your time. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia. Just checking in to see how things are going. And to make sure you didn’t finally find the PERFECT food and forget to tell me. 🙂 M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks for the CBD article link. The reason I did choose Joy Organics is because of their testing. They post 3rd party reports online by batch, and in addition to the Cannabinoid Profile, they also test for heavy metals, pesticides, mycotoxins, residual solvents, and others. What I use is a human product, and of course compute my own dosing. I can’t remember if Joy even makes a pet version. From the research I did before settling on Joy, I found that most of the companies who sold both said that their pet product was the same as one of their unflavored human products. But generally the testing was more complete for the human products.

Things seem to be moving in the right direction for my dog. No shaking events in the last 3 days and none so far today. I keep reminding myself not to let my guard down though. I reduced the CBD dose yesterday and today. If we get through today with no shaking I will probably go with no CBD tomorrow.
Good to know that ½ life information. If I can stop the CBD now then his bloodwork next week should be informative.
However, I had another thought/worry. Are you familiar with Bach Rescue Remedy? I learned of it from reading posts on the Canine Epilepsy Network forum, and also some articles. Seizure dog owners have found (they think anyway) that it helps dogs recover more quickly from a seizure and lessens the chance of a cluster seizure. So I smear a few drops on my dog’s gums right after a seizure, and for the first few days of the shaking events I did so during the shaking too. I wonder if this could have an impact on liver enzymes? I looked back at his seizures vs blood draws. First blood draw with elevated enzymes was 7 days after a seizure and the next blood draw (even higher enzymes) was 4 days after a seizure.
Here are the ingredients:
Rock Rose (Helianthemum nummularium)
Clematis (Clematis vitalba)
Impatiens (Impatiens glandulifera)
Cherry Plum (Prunus cerasifera)
Star of Bethlehem (Ornithogalum umbellatum)

If you care to speculate about the Bach, it would be great. He will almost certainly have another seizure before the next blood draw on 3/1. I probably should skip the Bach after that seizure, but that is really scary given the prospects of another cluster. Thanks. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks as always for taking the time to provide so much information.
The CBD I have been using is a broad spectrum, by Joy Organics and the total CBD content is 75 mg/ml (2,250 mg/bottle). It is $100/bottle, so does get expensive for a dog the size of mine. I’m hoping that these almost daily partial seizures (or pre-seizures?) will stop and then I will stop the CBD completely. His next blood draw is 3/1 so I am hoping that his liver enzymes will have come down at least a little. He went 2 weeks with no CBD and now has been on ½ the previous dose for almost 2 weeks. Hopefully that is enough of a reduction to have an impact on the enzymes. If there is no reduction, I will probably have an ultrasound done.

I’ve been doing more reading on partial, or focal, seizures. I’m not sure if that is what he is having, or if this shaking is just part of his pre-ictal seizure phase. The exact same thing proceeds his full blown seizures, which are classic generalized tonic-clonic. When he has a full seizure the shaking only lasts a few seconds then he goes into the seizure. Now the shaking lasts a few minutes, but no seizure.
Some sources emphasize that a partial seizure affects only part of the brain, so symptoms like shaking are one part of the body, or one side. With my dog, it is just generalized, pretty violent, shaking and he remains fully conscious. But other sources describe symptoms like shaking without loss of consciousness as part of a partial seizure and that it is fairly common for dogs to start with a partial seizure that then turns into a generalized. So, I don’t know . . .

We got through yesterday without a shaking episode, and today he hasn’t had one yet. Small victories, I guess. I do feel that these things – whatever they are – are not as hard on him as the seizures he was having. Just wish I understood what is going on. I’m also dreading the next full blown seizure and afraid it will be a cluster of them again. Sorry for so much seizure discussion (on a dog food forum).

I do continue to agonize over dog food too. I finally confronted Steve’s about the high calcium and phosphorus contents for their Turkey recipe (and Turducken to a lesser extent). I kept procrastinating, knowing that I would probably get a reply that would cause me to lose confidence in yet another company. No surprise – that is what happened. I guess it is more a matter of this food not being a good fit for my dogs, since I want to continue feeding turkey necks. So I am feeding less of Steve’s and will probably use up what I have then not buy more.

Well, sorry for the rambling (even more than my typical post). Thanks again. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. I had another thought (in the middle of the night) about a possible contributor to my dog’s high liver enzymes. About the same time that I started the CBD Oil I also started supplementing MCT Oil. I had in my mind from former reading that MCT Oil was metabolized differently than other fats and was not hard on the liver. This morning I’ve been doing some more reading and I sure am finding conflicting info out there about whether MCT Oil taxes the liver or not. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I hate to stop the MCT now because of the possibility that it is helpful for seizures. A few weeks ago I lowered the amount. But after the day of cluster seizures last week, I increased it again. So, add MCT to the many things that have me wondering if I am helping or hurting . . . M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia. Decided we have been at this so long that I could probably drop the A. I hope you got that short vacation you said you needed. Even if it was just a nice half day away from home. I see you are continuing to ponder a food change and are getting some good thoughts from Aimee. I’m watching and learning. I’m continuing to think about it, but in spurts. Most days I just don’t have the energy to do that kind of research. I still feel that I do need to make a change, but now isn’t the time.
BTW, Steve’s has fallen out of favor with me. I will probably post some more details on that in my Topic if you are interested.

Unfortunately, my dog continues to have partial seizures nearly every day. But, on the bright side, at least they are not full blown seizures.

Take care, and keep striking the best balance you can between mother demands, dog food worries, and finding time for yourself. And, count your blessings that your dogs are healthy. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Unfortunately, my dog is continuing to have the partial seizures nearly every morning. But, as disturbing as it is, at least he hasn’t had a full blown seizure in 9 days. I do worry that he could be having more partial seizures than I realize – like at night. I’m confident that I’m not missing any full seizures, but I could easily miss a partial.

I’m continuing to give him a smaller dose of CBD Oil in early in the morning, and also continuing Keppra 2x. I guess I will take it one day at a time as far as deciding when to completely stop the CBD.

Back when I was giving him only CBD Oil I had worked up slowly to 2.5 mg/kg/day CBDs (in 2 doses). From what I had read, the studies were typically using around 5 mg/kg/day, and the McGrath study on adverse effects used much higher doses of 10 and 20 mg/kg/day. I would have kept increasing the dose I was using if his liver enzymes hadn’t shot up. From what I could glean from studies it seems that most dogs had only a minimal rise in enzymes, if any, at the lower doses, yet a few dogs did have a significant rise.

You make a good point that although I think that I am using a quality brand (organic and aggressive third party testing, etc), it is possible that there is something unique about the oil I am using that caused the dramatic rise in enzymes. I just hope that his levels are coming down when the next bloodwork is done in early March.

I was just rereading the 2018 McGrath Report (A Report of Adverse Effects Associated With the Administration of Cannabidiol in Healthy Dogs) again and noticed a statement that made me want to have a better understanding of liver testing, and I thought you might be able to help me with that.
This was part of the discussion about a rise in ALP levels. “There was no evidence of short-term hepatotoxicity since fasting and postprandial bile acids remained normal for all the dogs throughout the study. However, the potential for long- term liver toxicity was not evaluated in this study.”
And then from an article by McGrath discussing her studies “Bile acids were monitored every two weeks and no changes were noted, suggesting the liver continued to function normally.”

My vet has never even brought up a bile acids test, and I now don’t understand that. I’ve actually been frustrated that she really didn’t seem all that concerned about what I considered to be dramatic increases in my dog’s ALT and ALP. Especially ALP, which is now at 6x the upper reference range value. So evidently the lab results as a whole she doesn’t find terribly troubling. The other liver-related results on the lab report (AST, GGT, and Bilirubin) were within range. Although, confusing to me, is that the Bilirubin Total was about mid-range, while the Unconjugated was at the very low end and the Conjugated at the very high end.

When we were discussing the last lab report my vet did say that I could have an ultrasound done, but it felt more like a response to my concern than a recommendation. It was at that point that I decided to discontinue the CBD and see if that causes the enzymes to come down. It seems to me that it would be prudent for the next blood test to include a bile acids test, instead of skipping that and jumping right to an ultrasound. I hate to even think this, but the ultrasound would be more of a money maker for her clinic . . .

If you care to comment on the usefulness of a bile acids test that would be great. You are so good at boiling information down so it is understandable. Thanks. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. I came back to catch up on my reading. Thank you for addressing all of my questions. Your simplified lesson on fatty acids is great, and very helpful. I had done quite a bit of prior reading on the subject, but I think my eyes generally glossed over part way through articles because it does get so complex. I did of course read about the importance of the 6:3 ratio, but I had also decided it was best to keep the Omega 6 intake at a reasonable level so that a good ratio could be obtained without having to over-supplement with something like fish oil. I still tend to think that is a valid approach, but your lesson emphasizes to me that it is more important that the diet have plenty Omega 3s.

On the chicken-allergy-holistic-vet subject, I did quickly lose confidence in the holistic vet and discontinued that. There was no evidence pointing toward my dog being allergic to chicken, and in fact when I later had the IgE food allergy test done through another vet, he had no reaction to chicken. But, I know, IgE testing is a controversial subject, and I won’t digress. I came to suspect that this holistic vet pretty much gave every patient the same plan, regardless of what they were there for. Complete removal of chicken from the diet and take the liver support supplements and Chinese herbs that she sold. But, as bad as my experience with her was, it was not quite as bad as your holistic vet experience.

An update on my seizer. This morning I gave him a dose of CBD Oil, in addition to the Keppra in an attempt to break the pattern of daily partial seizures in the morning. It is noon now, and so far no seizure today. So if we can get through the rest of the day without one, that will be a relief. But, the goal is to stop the CBD and hope that the Keppra will kick in and help.
I do think now that the CBD Oil was probably helping to control his seizures, but I also acknowledge the elusiveness of seizures and that it may have been doing nothing except raising his liver enzymes. I was very careful in selecting a brand, and I think I was using one of the best brands out there, but it’s kind of like commercial dog food – you just never really know.
You asked about his age – he just turned 6. So he is right on the line that is typically used as a general guide for diagnosing the underlying cause. If this daily partial seizure routine continues I will probably consider an MRI.
Thanks for the kind words. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Sorry about the lack of replies from me, although that was probably a nice break from my questions. Things have only gone downhill for my dog. After the two seizures close together on 2/6 he then had another one 14 hours later, in the middle of the night, and since then is having shaking episodes every morning, just like he has right before a seizure, but then he doesn’t go into the full blown seizure. So, obviously there have been some undesirable changes in his little brain. It’s just so surprising to suddenly have such a change for the worse, when the seizures were becoming less frequent. But, as you mentioned, seizures are unpredictable and often there just is no rhyme or reason. Back in Aug/Sept, I spent hundreds of hours reading posts on the Canine Epilepsy Network forum, and I should have gotten that message then and been prepared for the way things have gone. I kept hoping for a sudden miracle of no more seizures, but instead got this sudden turn in the other direction.

Thanks for sharing your seizure dog experience. Interesting about most of the seizures happening while riding in a car. My dog has them when sleeping or resting. About 98% of them have been first thing in the morning – 1.5 hours after I get up and let him outside. Thankfully he has never had one while in my vehicle, as that would be dicey. I’m also thankful that he has never had one while on a walk. I don’t get too far from the vehicle now though.

I did start him on an anti-seizure med (Keppra) on 2/9. Disappointing that he is still having the “almost seizures” (partial seizures, I guess) every day, but a relief that so far there are no terrible side effects. With his liver enzymes already high, plus the fact that he gets around on only 3 legs, I just can’t go with the standard first choice AEDs.

I see that you have comments on food topics for me to digest (hah). I just can’t get my mind into dog food at the moment, so I will be back later. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Sorry for the delayed reply. It’s been a really bad week for my seizure dog, so of course a bad week for me too. After the two seizures close together he then had another one 14 hours later, in the middle of the night, and since then is having violent shaking episodes every morning, just like he has right before a seizure, but without the full blown seizure.

Sounds like you are also having a very bad week with your mother. I can only imagine what you are going through. My father died 12 years ago with a bad case of dementia. It was really hard to see him that way. I did what I could, spending many nights in the hospital with him and then visits to a memory care facility, but his wife and I didn’t get along so I had no control over his care. Having no control was really hard, but I was shielded from much of what you are going through.

Glad you found your husband to be the culprit and not your new choices of food. A much easier fix.
I had not heard about the PPP recall. I am supposed to get recall notices from DFA, so I’m surprised I didn’t get that one. Coincidentally, Vitamin E has been my latest dilemma – whether to supplement or not. Since I am feeding so much fresh meat these days, it is something that theoretically I should supplement. But in my perusal of vitamin/mineral data from many, many companies, it is pretty common to see data with an alarmingly high level of Vit E. One company can have many recipes with normal levels then one recipe with really high levels. Particularly companies who are using mixed tocopherols as a preservative. My theory is that it is difficult to get Vitamin E thoroughly blended into a food. So it is hit and miss whether the bag of food a dog is eating has high or low levels of it. Just my guess as to what might be going on. So for now, I’ve decided not to supplement.

I haven’t explored Reddit yet, but I will. I guess I’m just exhausted, and soooo disappointed, at this point. I had my hopes up that my dog was headed in the right direction and that maybe the changes I had made were working. But those hopes are completely dashed now. After a frustrating week of trying to get my vet to call me back, I finally talked to her on Thurs and started him on an anti-seizure med that evening. The good news is that he is not experiencing the terrible side effects that I feared from AEDs. But still having those “almost seizures”.
Hope things are going better for you and your mother today. Always good to hear from you. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. I certainly understand why you would be considering assisted living for your mother, and if you feel the slightest guilt for thinking about it – you shouldn’t. I have no doubt that being a full time caregiver is taking a toll on your health.

Thanks for the REDDIT tip. I will explore. I had found a really good forum called Canine Epilepsy Network, but it no longer seems to be active, or at least they are not accepting new registration. But I did get some good information, and encouragement, from reading old posts. I will definitely look into REDDIT.

My dog had a seizure this morning, and another one 20 minutes later. He has never had a second one like that. I spent the rest of the day sitting right beside him fearing that he would have a third one, but thankfully not.
Hope you, and your mother, are having a good (or at least not terrible) day. Hang in there. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. You must have enjoyed a few days off from my questioning. I have been experimenting with the caloric distribution comps to make sure I have it down. Not sure if I do or not. I’ve been running the comps using data from a couple companies (Instinct and Nulo) who have very thorough data sheets, and even provide the % calories from protein, fat, and carbs to compare with my comps. I’m finding that I sometimes match pretty closely to their % calorie figures, and sometimes not. And often my total for % calories from protein, fat & carbs is not 100%. I wonder if one possible explanation for the differences is that they are running the computations using exact numbers from a sample, instead of min protein/fat, max moisture, etc. Anyway, my understanding of this stuff is coming along, and my brain is getting some good exercise.

Thanks for the additional comments on copper content. From what I have seen out there it has been 100% beef recipes that have had really high copper contents. And I think the highest ones were companies who are also adding a copper supplement. This is just from a few (quite a few) companies that I explored, so of course is not a scientific study. What I concluded is that many companies are developing a standard vitamin/mineral pack that they dump into every recipe instead of making a custom pack for each recipe. The 3 companies you mentioned must tailor their packs to the specific recipe. The responsible thing to do.

My dog had a seizure this morning, followed by another one 20 minutes later. This has never happened before. I can’t help but wonder if stopping the CBD Oil caused this change. Just when I was starting to feel hopeful . . . M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Aimee – there may be typos in my last post where I say “Nature’s Logic” when I meant “Nature’s Variety”. Thought I would mention to reduce confusion. I may have successfully edited – or maybe not.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Mutts and Cats.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. Way back in the early days of this Topic, you mentioned Nature’s Variety as a raw food that you have confidence in. It appears that maybe there has been a change in ownership, or maybe just a restructuring of the company. I think previously the brand name was Instinct by Nature’s Variety. But now the packaging is just Instinct – the RAW brand. But from what I can make out on website photos, the fine print on the back of the bag does say “distributed by Nature’s Variety, St. Lois, MO”.

The Instinct website I find to be a little annoying in that they don’t even say where the headquarters are located or where it is manufactured. No mention of Nature’s Variety on the website. Even under “Contact Us” there is only the email address.
When I google Nature’s Variety I get a hit that looks like it will take me to naturesvariety.com but when I click on it I go straight to the Instinct website (instinctpetfood.com). Do you know anything about a restructuring of the company? If that has happened does it change your confidence in the company?

A few years ago I did feed their canned for a while (when it was Instinct by Nature’s Variety) and one of the freeze dried boosters. I think I tried the frozen. I can’t remember for sure why I stopped feeding it.
If I can get over worrying about my dog’s alleged food allergies (from the IgE blood test), then I think I may try the frozen again, if it remains a product you like. I’m almost there, regarding the allergies, and yet still nervous about letting go of that worry.

I had recently considered Instinct but I think even before the food allergies became a concern, it was the copper and Vitamin A contents that discouraged me. The frozen beef recipe has copper 59 ppm and Vitamin A 200,000 iu/kg. Chicken is more reasonable, but still fairly high at 39 ppm for copper (Vit A 67k). But my nagging inflammation concern definitely makes me more inclined to lean toward beef. Since I would not be feeding it full time, the copper now may not be a deal breaker for me, and in fact might balance out the diet nicely.

Their full vitamin/mineral data sure looks professional and at a glance I see no anomalies. I like the fact that they show the Omega 3 and 6 contents under the GA, plus a few vitamins and minerals there too.
But the lack of substantive info on the Instinct website does cause some concern. Maybe they are just in the process of restructuring and improvements will be made. Any thoughts you have are most welcome. M&C

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Mutts and Cats.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Your description of your doxie stealing pizzas is hilarious, but what a frightening experience with his lepto shot. I really can’t believe now that I let my vet give my dog a lepto shot so soon after his first seizure. He didn’t seem to have any immediate reaction to it, but I will never know if it contributed to the seizures that followed. My vet had been pretty persuasive about lepto so I was doing it annually for all of my dogs, but I didn’t last year because I started feeling the risks of reaction outweighed the benefits. I don’t live in an area that should be really high risk. But then a friend told me her dog had recently died of lepto. She doesn’t live in my area, but about 400 miles away, in a similar climate. So of course I freaked out and made an appointment for the shots. My dog had his first seizure 3 days before that appointment so I had not yet come upon the information out there showing a possible link between vaccinations and seizures. I was horrified when I did start reading that afterwards.

Thanks for the heads up on plug-ins and the Hartz shampoo. I don’t use either, but I’m always eager to consider any suggestions that anyone has for ANYTHING that might help. My approach has been to try to identify things in his environment, or that he is eating, that could possibly be a trigger. To get to the root cause, instead of attempting to control them with anti-seizure meds. Although if they should start to become more frequent, then I will go with meds.

Sounds like you know what your dogs like and what foods they do and do not do well on. I wish that I could get to a place where I could be more confident about how to feed mine. Mine like fat and both seem to do ok with it, but of course I realize that “seeming to do ok” doesn’t mean that all is well internally. And I’ve been overdoing it lately. My strategy used to be high protein, moderate fat, but then my seizure research caused me to change that strategy for the seizure dog and consequently they have both been eating pretty high fat. But some posting with Aimee definitely has me thinking I should move the other direction again.

On the copper issue, if you are feeding poultry based foods then it is pretty unlikely that you will see that problem. The S&C poultry foods that I have looked at have very reasonable levels, like around 20 ppm or below. So it sound like that is not something you need to worry about. One less thing!

Hope things start going a little better for your mother. She is lucky to have a caring daughter like you. My mother is in assisted living, over 1,000 miles away. So I’m always a little on edge that I am going to get a call saying that she is in the hospital, or worse . . .
You take care too PA. M&C.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. I find this so disturbing and it makes me furious. Plus it is frightening that one has to be so careful which companies they trust.
Are you aware of any recent articles that provide the brand names tested?
That tandfonline link you provided only allows me to see the abstract of course, and the price for purchasing access to the full article was quite shocking. I think it was $58 for just the one article ???!!! Or maybe that was a membership.

Do you know of any memberships out there offering access to in depth food reviews (reasonable in cost) that would be a good resource for an inquiring pet owner like me?
When I bought the 2023 Susan Thixton List I noticed that she offers a membership called Petsumer Report that sounds interesting, and I think it was only around $20 a year. But I’m not exactly sure what kind of information that will provide. I guess if I could learn which companies to stay away from, that would be worth it.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks for those detailed calculations and explanations. I will dig into that and give my brain a little exercise. I worked in a technical field so I like numbers. It is strangely relaxing for me to crunch numbers and I seem to have a notion in the back of my mind that all problems can be solved with a spreadsheet. But I retired quite a few years ago and there has been a lot of brain atrophy. So thanks for giving my old brain some challenges.

Thanks for the additional discussion on triglycerides and lipase too. So I guess from his lab reports it doesn’t appear that there are problems in that area yet, but I have backed off on the high fat diet. If his seizures should become more frequent then I might increase it again. But I will be really surprised if that happens.
It is a relief that stopping the CBD Oil seems to be making no difference in the frequency of seizures. I just hope his next seizure is not more intense, or longer. I suspect the CBD Oil caused his ALT and ALP liver enzymes to spike. My vet thinks that is unlikely, but from what I’ve read it sure seems possible. ALT and ALP went from 62 and 91 in Aug to 142 and 826 in Nov to 191 and 878 in Jan. I started the CBD Oil in early Oct. My vet seems surprisingly unconcerned about the ALT and ALP, but if they haven’t come down when we retest in March then my anxiety is really going to take off.

That company you mentioned who was so clueless about basics like fat content does highlight a problem out there that I was buying into. Thinking that a small company would mean good quality control and that possibly the owners really cared about producing a good product. I’ve been drawn in by some of them, who say great things on the website, but then I realize that I’m not sure they know what they are doing. But, that said, I still find myself wanting to find a small(ish) company that I feel really good about.
Always nice to get your replies. Thanks for taking the time. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi once again Aimee. Sorry to keep peppering you with questions, but I just can’t help myself. I would love to get your input on this when you have time. I’ve been reevaluating my Worry List. The long list of dog food issues that I worry about. It has become so long, that I need to start letting some things go. Omega 6 fats and inflammation – specifically chicken – is the worry topic of the moment.

The holistic vet I consulted with shortly after my dog started having seizures called inflammation to my attention. She felt (without any testing I have to add) this was the root cause of his problems – not just the seizures but the fact that he had lost stamina, was not getting around well, and had developed anxious whining (was it anxiety or pain?). So chicken was her focus because it is inflammatory and she also thought he most likely was allergic to it. So I eliminated all chicken from his diet and started doing research. I did find that I agree with the fact that chicken is quite high in Omega 6 fats, compared to other meats (except pork is just as high) and I do believe in the inflammatory powers of Omega 6’s, so I have kept him off of chicken and also started avoiding foods with a high Omega 6 content (and high 6:3 ratio). Just recently I started reintroducing chicken in small quantities with no noticeable reaction. I’ve pretty much concluded that he is not allergic to it. The food allergy test did not show an IgE reaction and he never did have classic food allergy symptoms. But the worry about inflammation is still there. Plus, I have to admit that my dog is better overall, including seizures, now compared to before I eliminated chicken and started being careful about Omega 6. So, I am a little nervous about bringing it back. Your thoughts?

Would it be more appropriate for me to start a new Topic for a question like this, or is it ok to just keep asking here?

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Thanks for the condolences and supportive words. Sorry to hear about your heart breaking losses. I’ve had many of those too, and the last two were particularly hard as I went into the vet’s office knowing there was something wrong, but no idea that I would be leaving with a dead dog. Like you, I have a hard time even talking/writing about those experiences.

You mentioned shots, and I’m right there with you. No more shots, except rabies, for the one with seizures. I’m really mad at myself that a few days after the first seizure I let the vet give him a leptospirosis shot. She insisted it was a good idea even though he had just had a seizure. I was in a state of mind where I just desperately wanted to trust my vet.

My dogs were acquired from the shelter, so I have no idea about their background. The one who has seizures was picked up on the street, at 8 weeks old, by animal control with a REALLY BADLY broken leg. I forget the technical term, but snapped in two, not just fractured. So he went through several surgeries to pin the leg back together, then later to remove the pins. I was fostering dogs and cats at the time so I fostered him. I should have known the minute he came to my house that I was going to adopt him, and of course I did. But his leg was in a splint for so long that the tendon fused to the bone and he can’t straighten it out enough to use it. So he is essentially a tripawd.

Also, I thought I would mention a revived old concern about S&C, plus a new one. My exchanges with Aimee gave me some affirmation on an issue on my long Worry List – copper content. Some foods are quite high in copper content, and many experts out there feel that this could be a factor in liver disease. Usually the beef recipes, probably because they contain a lot of beef liver. S&C is not quite as bad as some companies, but from the data I have there are some recipes that are pretty darn high. For the freeze dried patties, these are the ones that are high (mg/kg or ppm): Surf & Turf 89; Red Meat 79; Pork 62; Beef 51.
For the Wild Red Raw Blend Kibble, Grain Free I only have data for the Prairie, which is ok at 22 ppm, but I’ll bet the Red Meat recipe is pretty darn high.

And then, a few months ago when I was getting the data from S&C there was a note on the website under the Guaranteed Analysis tab saying something like “We will have more data here soon – if you need data now email us”. When I corresponded with a rep to get data they told me that they were in the process of the final formatting and review and it would be available online soon. Now I see that there is no data available online and they took away the statement inviting customers to request it by email. So they are definitely moving in an undesirable direction from my perspective. Just wanted to share those thoughts.

Migraines – I used to get terrible ones that completely incapacitated me, so I really feel for you that you have one plus some mother issues to go with it. Hope you get some relief soon.
M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

I know this Topic is quite old, but I sure find it interesting and wish it would come back to life for more discussion. Aimee and crazy4cats – any newly discovered atrocities to add? Anyone else?

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. On the No Hide thread, I do realize now that the search function is the best way to find Topics. I can certainly see why that was a life changing experience. I’m glad you hung in there and although the outcome of the FDA investigation was disappointing, I’m sure Earth Animal isn’t celebrating a victory. I imagine a lot of people changed their outlook on the company from reading that thread. I’m glad there are people like you out there who have the knowledge, and take the time, to keep some of the bad actors honest. Hope you don’t get discouraged and stop.
Plus, taking the time to help people like me see some inconvenient truths about foods they are feeding, or considering, is SOOOO valuable. As I’ve said many times, I really appreciate it.
And, a big amen to this: “… then I lose confidence in that the company has the needed knowledge in other areas to make a safe product.”
M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks for sharing more information and especially for the quick education on converting to energy basis. That balanceit calculator is great, and I did finally grasp your manual calculation (my brain heated up significantly, but I got it). At first I was puzzled by the 9 in your calculation, but thankfully the footnote on balanceit gave me a hint and I now understand where it came from. What I don’t really understand is how the balaneit calculator is able to do the calculation without the caloric value of the food, since that is not one of the entries. But, I don’t really need to know. Your calculation method is quick.

On triglycerides: My, you are quite knowledgeable when it comes to lab reports too. If there is a limit to the scope of your dog knowledge, I haven’t found it yet. The Lipemia Index was reported on 2 of his 3 lab reports and it shows N, with the footnote: “Index of N, 1+, 2+ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values.” All 3 of the blood draws were done 7-8 hours after he ate breakfast. So not officially fasting, but quite a while after a meal.
This probably is unrelated, but the Lipase level was within range all 3 times.
Interesting about the movie “First Do No Harm” – I’m going to see if Netflix has it.

You raised the high copper issue and that is the very thing that got me so focused on vitamin/mineral content. Very early in my dog seizure research I stumbled upon an article about a concerning trend of high copper content in dog foods along with a trend of rising liver disease in dogs. So then I started looking at the nutrient profiles for dog foods and was horrified to see some foods with around 100 ppm copper (I also get concerned about Vitamin A around 150,000 iu/kg, even though I know the AAFCO upper limit is 250,000). I had been using foods that were pretty high in both, plus my dog was getting quite a few freeze dried liver treats daily. Going forward, I was very careful that the foods I chose had reasonable contents of both. But now, since I have started feeding so much fresh meat and keeping track of everything on my spreadsheet, I realize that my dog’s diet is getting close to copper deficient. So, he is getting a couple small liver treats a day, which is a change he is very happy about.

I did notice that the SRF Beef is quite high in copper, so I stayed with poultry recipes. When I first started being so concerned about copper I was appalled that some companies were putting food out there with such high levels, and it made me think less of those companies. But that seems to be so common with beef recipes that I had to let it go and just pretty much go with poultry recipes. The SRF issue of high fat recipes being touted as low fat on their website is troubling too. So much trouble for my brain to deal with . . .

And speaking of troubling – the “How many confirmed deaths?” reply you mentioned is so sad I don’t even know what to say. Depressing comes to mind. THANKS. M&C

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Hi Patricia A. Believe me, I’m barely holding my own when discussing dog nutrition. I realize after some exchanges with Aimee that I have some serious gaps in my dog nutrition knowledge. So now I’m trying to remedy that. But I have some pretty firmly ingrained thoughts on some topics (like % protein from meat, and carbs) that go against mainstream dog nutrition, so I’m not sure how that is going to be reconciled in the end.

The info you provided from another forum on Stella & Chewy’s is SOOO DISAPPOINTING. If I understand that post correctly it appears that S&C may be experiencing growing pains, that will probably not end well. I was getting ready to go back to feeding S&C. I used to feed that Wild Red dry product that is mentioned, and my dogs loved it, plus several of the freeze dried recipes. I stopped feeding the dry because there is a chance (probably extremely small, but still a chance) that the rosemary in it could contribute to seizures (in a dog that already has seizures). Then for a while I had other concerns about some of the ingredients in S&C, but have since pretty much let go of those concerns. I have to start letting go of some things. The list of things I’m concerned about has grown to a ridiculous length. I have been surprised that S&C has never made the Thixton Lists – or at least not the years that I bought them. I see in one of your posts that evidently Thixton kind of caught S&C in a lie regarding the source of ingredients. That is unfortunate. Especially since supplements sourced from China are not necessarily a dog food deal breaker in my mind. I think it is pretty hard to find human supplements that don’t come from China. But the fact that S&C lied about it until they knew they were caught is quite troubling.

I’m getting very close to deciding that I will never find a dog food company that I feel good about so I should just start making my own. I say that as though it would be no big deal to just start doing it, but it is a pretty overwhelming thought. Plus, I feel like my dogs need to be accustomed to at least one dry or freeze dried food so I can leave it out if I have to travel. That is what I liked about Vital Essentials mini nibs. I was able to leave it out for free feeding, like I would a dry food. But I’ve decided that I am definitely done with VE.

On the DCM issue, did you see Aimee’s reply in my Raw Food Topic? When someone as well informed as her is uncertain, then there are no answers yet. I’ve done just a little more online research in the last week, and it sounds like there are ongoing studies that point toward diets high in peas, lentils, and potatoes being the problem, but that is hardly a revelation. I want to know why! For now I’m assuming it is mostly peas and lentils (but I am still suspicious of beans too) in high quantities, which results in not enough high quality protein for the dog plus the peas acting as an anti-nutrient or even a toxin. Have you ever read “The Plant Paradox”? He is down on all legumes. I think dog foods that include grains just naturally tend to include less legumes, but in my mind the grains have no protective powers and are not providing lacking nutrients. But then, I really don’t know . . .

The agony you are going through in trying to determine, from order of ingredients and moisture content of ingredients, how much protein is coming from meat vs legumes is why I decided firmly that if a company won’t reveal the percentage of protein from meat (or animal sources is the language some use) then I wouldn’t even consider them. But Aimee brought up a good point about the definition of meat. Companies can play games with that, so I need to make sure I trust the company too. I feel a headache coming on . . .

Thanks for asking about my pup’s health issues. The one who is not doing well is only 6 years old and his issues are illusive. He’s an 80 lb mixed breed – probably boxer and black lab, maybe some pit bull, maybe some great dane. A real mutt. About a year ago (right after I lost a dog to osteosarcoma), he started going downhill. Lack of stamina and not getting around as well as he used to. He has had use of only 3 legs since he was a puppy, but before the downturn he made due pretty well. And his personality started changing and he became a very anxious dog, which at first I thought was a reaction to the other dog’s death. But the anxiety persisted and then he started having seizures. At first the seizures were increasing in frequency, but thankfully now they seem to be going the other way. And his anxiety is much better now, but I go to great lengths to shield him from stress. So, of course I have done a ton of online research on dog seizures and have essentially tried everything that had any potential at all. I didn’t put him on anti-seizure meds (except CBD Oil), but came close a dozen times. If the seizures continue to become less frequent I’m hoping to avoid meds.

One thing I will point out is that (from what I have picked up from your posts) your dogs are healthy and you have a track record of dogs living to ripe old ages. I don’t have such a good record, and it does cause me anxiety when I face that fact. Perhaps, despite my good intentions, I am contributing to that bad record in the way I have fed.
Nice posting with you. Hang in there and be sure to let me know if you have any revelations. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Just checking in to see how you are doing. I’ve been rereading this Topic of yours because there is some good discussion on dog food selection priorities. My agony continues. I guess I am starting to reevaluate my priorities, but it is hard to let go of things that I had decided were important in the past.

You had mentioned Susan Thixton’s List. I just bought the 2023 List, but instead of finding revelations I only feel more confused. And exhausted at the thought of starting over with research and inquiries. Hope you are doing better at being content with where you are than I am. I guess what is giving me a sense of urgency is that one of my dogs’ health has been declining. From what I read of your posts it sounds like your dogs are in good health. So you must be doing something right. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. If you have time to help me along some more with my dog food nutrition education, that would be great. A few posts ago you Commented that Steve’s Turkey appeared to have ~63% of the calories coming from fat, which you feel is quite high. How do you like to see the % calories distributed? For some reason, in the past I have had a mental block regarding evaluation of foods on a caloric basis. I have always just looked at the protein and fat percentages and made sure the protein was plenty high and had tried to keep the protein to fat ratio at something close to 2:1. But, as I learn more, I realize that I should start thinking in terms of % of calories.

I’m glad you raised the fat issue because I think that I have been really overdoing it with high fat content foods. My dog seizure research had taken me that direction. Plus a holistic vet that I took my dog to for a couple months suggested increasing his fat intake. But even before you brought it up I was starting to feel that this was not a good move, and both of my dogs will probably end up with other health problems if I continue down that path.

Also, if you feel comfortable weighing in this, that would be great.
I had formerly purchased Susan Thixton’s List each year, but then skipped a couple of years because I lost some confidence after some of my own research and contact with a couple companies on the list. But, I just bought the 2023 List. Something that occurs to me this time around is that The List does explore some important issues and at least gives an idea of the quality of ingredients used, plus provides what the company says their testing program is. But, from what I can tell, the overall nutritional suitability of the food is not addressed at all. So the companies might be using quality ingredients but not necessarily making a food that is nutritionally sound. Or maybe that is considered but just not specifically addressed in the report. Would love to know your thoughts.

[Mutts and Cats]

This was some great reading. Thanks Aimee for your persistence and for sharing information so dog owners can be informed. Earth Animal will go on my list of companies to not buy from.

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks Raven Depto. Appreciate your contribution.

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. I found your No Hide thread. It was surprisingly difficult to find. I tried yesterday, while logged in, and couldn’t find it because I was unable to go to the second page of the Topics you have created. Then this morning I got on the website on my backup laptop but was not logged in and it popped up on the left side of the screen in the “Latest Replies” column. Showing that there had been replies in the last few hours. But of course when I went to that topic, the last reply was in December. So I continue to be baffled by bizarre occurrences like that on this website. Of course there is a good chance the problem is me.

Anyway – NICE WORK! Thank you for putting information like that on this website. I will certainly remember the Earth Animal company name and will never buy anything from them.

A related question for you. Would the vitamin/mineral content of turkey tendons be similar to turkey meat? My dogs are very fond of turkey tendons, as treats, and eat several per day. Beef esophagus too. The caloric contents are 4,585 kcal/kg and 3,720 kcal/kg. I have assumed that both have some nutritional value, but maybe not. I don’t know the fat content either, and that might be much higher than I assumed. I haven’t been able to find an online resource for nutritional information on things like turkey tendons. I mostly use nutritiondata.self for information on meat (and some organs).

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Thanks, as always, for the good information. You must chuckle to yourself at people like me who are struggling to grasp the AAFCO/NRC data, and dog nutrition in general. I’m finally taking the time now to better understand what I’m doing, but when I look back at where I’ve been, my bumbling is amusing. And, I still have a long way to go . . .

It’s disappointing to learn that there really isn’t much regulation over the dog food industry. So companies can claim about anything and get away with it. I imagine the small companies tend to be even more protected, because no one bothers to go after them for false claims. I notice that all of the foods I feed use the exact same language on the bags “… formulated to meet … AAFCO…” Lawyer approved language that protects them. But, thankfully people like you remind some of these companies that there are some very educated consumers out there who are keeping an eye on them.

Yes, my dog had his first seizure in August and I’ve been obsessing about his diet ever since. I’ve worked myself into a state of high anxiety thinking that what I’m feeding him may be contributing. Although thankfully the seizures have been less frequent lately (last 2 were 18 days apart).

Thank you for bringing up triglycerides. I just looked back at my dog’s lab reports and that was not tested for. Cholesterol was normal, but he was not fasting so I guess the results are not particularly valid. After reading your post I of course went on a Googling spree on cholesterol vs triglycerides but came away with a frustrating lack of understanding, and wondering why his bloodwork included cholesterol but not triglycerides. He is scheduled for bloodwork again on 3/1 so I will have him fasted for that and ask that triglycerides be included. Thanks again for bringing it up. I’m always willing to explore any possibility.

I have been purposely feeding him a high fat diet, even including some MCT Oil, as my research indicated that some seizure dogs do well when fed this way. He was eating high protein and moderate fat before the seizures started. He has never seemed to have a problem with fat (that showed in his poop anyway). Before I started making changes to his diet, and starting supplements, his poop looked great. He did develop diarrhea a few weeks ago that I think was either reaction to a new food or to starting Milk Thistle. I discontinued both. The diarrhea went away but ever since then his poop has remained too soft. He was on CBD Oil too, which I thought was probably contributing to soft poop. TMI on my dog’s poop, right? Sorry, I get carried away. I think reducing his fat intake is a really good thought, and I will definitely get the triglycerides checked.

Thanks for adding some discussion about Steve’s. I need to take my education to the next level to understand some of what you have presented (I’m really lacking in understanding regarding how to interpret calories from fat, etc.), but I do get the point you are making. I think Steve’s has some data presentation issues on the website too. Did you notice that they show the Vitamins being presented As Fed but the Minerals being Dry Matter? And yet it looks pretty apparent to me that the Vitamins are Dry Matter too, particularly when I compare the frozen to the freeze dried. I raised the question and got an answer that was really perplexing – something about using the freeze dried data (even for the frozen), so the As Fed was actually close to Dry Matter. Yikes! The rep seemed thankful for the input, but the website hasn’t changed. My once hopeful thoughts are starting to turn . . .

I probably need to take a time out for a few days before deciding what to do, regarding his diet. I’ve made SO MANY changes in the last 5 months, which I know is not a good thing. I need to be settling in on something and stick with it. Thanks again, for your time. I REALLY appreciate it. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Well my dog nutrition education is coming along, and thank you for your part in that. I appreciate that you are taking the time to help educate me. I could have educated myself a lot quicker if I had just taken the time to read the 2014 AAFCO document that I have instead of bolting straight to the table.

I think I now understand how it can make a difference whether the vitamin/mineral content of foods is evaluated based on actual calories consumed (or actual caloric content of the food), vs the presumed content used by AAFCO. I don’t pay much attention to the feeding guidelines of companies, and my dog is probably an average keeper, but the way I was using the AAFCO data was problematic. I was converting the AAFCO food content (ppm or %) data to total daily needs for my dog. The foods I feed seem to average about 5,000 kcal/kg so I was using that when doing the conversion. But I realize now that I should have been using 4,000 and by using the larger number I was essentially lowering the AAFCO recommended levels. So when I was comparing the total vitamin/mineral content consumed by my dog in a day to my computed AAFCO daily, it was not a valid comparison. Plus, a food might look like it is barely meeting AAFCO, but is not when it comes down to what my dog is actually getting. Am I thinking straight now?

Does AAFCO conduct any oversight of companies who claim that their foods meet AAFCO standards? Does AAFCO require that they submit a quality control plan and submit lab reports periodically? I suspect there is only so much AAFCO can do and therefore the oversight may be minimal.
How about the calorie content of foods? Who regulates that to insure that what is stated on the bag is accurate? I guess if there is some regulation of that then it would be of some comfort that a company couldn’t get too carried away with adding bone to their recipes because then the caloric value would get very low. Right?

I sure have changed my thinking on how I evaluate the quality of a commercial food, and I’m very thankful for the information you have provided me that nudged me to rethink.
And speaking of that, I noticed something discouraging (heartbreaking, really) about Steve’s online data. I recently started feeding Steve’s and was hopeful that this was going to become the food that I finally could feel good about. But they recently put some updated data on the website and the Ca and P increased dramatically. Not quite as bad as what I had mentioned previously about Vital Essentials, plus I do applaud Steve’s for actually keeping their online data current. But, I’m realizing now that very high Ca and P are troubling to me. Especially since I feed turkey necks too.

This is how Steve’s Turkey recipe changed. The frozen and freeze dried are supposedly the exact same recipe and all data is dry matter basis.

Turkey Frozen
old new
Ash 2.13% 10.8%
Calcium 2.2% 2.9%
Phosphorus 1.7% 1.8%
C/P 1.3 1.6

Turkey Freeze Dried
old new
Ash 8.01% 9.2%
Calcium 2.06% 3.83%
Phosphorus 1.59% 2.31%
C/P 1.3 1.7

This bone content issue is starting to feel a little like the pea scandal. Companies increasing the bone content more and more to increase their profits.

What is the Topic name for the No Hide thread you mentioned? I see that you are a very busy poster. Looks like a lot of good reading in your Topics, to be explored when I have more time. Sorry to bombard you with so many questions in this post. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. I realized right after my last post that what I thought were NRC maximums per 1,000 kcal of Ca 6.25 g and P 4.0 g are actually just the AAFCO maximums of 2.5% and 1.6% converted using a food with 4,000 kcal/kg. So I think the source I got those from just took AAFCO maximums and converted them. Or, maybe AAFCO and NRC maximums are the same for Ca and P. ???
ok – now I’m definitely done thinking about this for the day. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. I’m still struggling a bit to understand the difference in approach between NRC and AAFCO, but I think that I’m getting there and maybe I should be relying more on NRC.
I realize now that those AAFCO max values that I quoted yesterday are evidently outdated. I have been using a document that was proposed revisions for 2014, which is all that I have been able to find online (for free), and I thought those were what was approved, but maybe not. The online Merck Veterinary Manual includes what I think is the most current AAFCO table and the max values are different there. From my 2014 AAFCO revisions document, these are the maximum values for adult maintenance: Ca 1.8% P 1.6%. From the Merck AAFCO table they are Ca 2.5% P 1.6%.

I also stumbled across an interesting document from FEDIAF (national pet food industry associations in the EU and from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Norway, Russia, Serbia and Switzerland) which seems to use NRC, with some tweaks, and they also show the max as Ca 2.5% P 1.6%. Huge document with a lot of good discussion on dog and cat nutrition, downloadable for free.

I haven’t been able to find an NRC table online that shows maximums for Ca and P. I’ll bet you can tell me if those exist. I’ve been using recommended 2006 NRC values out of a book (K9 Kitchen), but no maximums are provided for Ca and P. Merck has an NRC table online too, but no maximums for Ca and P. I found in my notes (I neglected to note the source of that info) that the NRC maximums per 1,000 kcal are Ca 6.25 g and P 4.0 g. Does that sound right? My notes could very well be wrong. I think those maximums would translate to about 3.1% and 2.0% on a food content basis. I used an assumed food with 5,000 kcal/kg DM for that computation. But I barely understand what I’m doing, and these computations are starting to challenge my poor old brain.

Boy I can’t believe how I can go down dog nutrition rabbit holes and burn up hours of time. I need to get a life right?

Your No Hide thread certainly sounds interesting and I will look for that next time I’m here. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi again Aimee. Regarding my analysis of my dog’s diet, I look at both the NRC recommendations and AAFCO. I tend to look more at AAFCO (using dry matter basis ppm or %) because of ease in comparing to the vitamin/mineral data I get from companies. I just use an Excel spreadsheet to add up the total of all vitamins/minerals from all the foods they eat. This is the only descent exercise my retired brain gets now.

I do realize that I am going to have to add more variety to the self-prepared portion soon. Because of my dog’s (alleged) food allergies, I have ended up feeding almost a Prey Model diet for the last couple months, but I’m not sure that I think this is a healthy way to feed. As I imagine you have picked up on – I’m not sure about a lot.

Regarding that certain company I have become disenchanted with – they have evidently blacklisted my email. I don’t get a reply any more, and I’ve decided that I’m done with them. I really tried hard to talk myself into trusting them, because I hated to put my dogs through yet another food change. Plus, unfortunately, Chewy had a big sale on their foods a couple months ago (right before I started becoming suspicious) so I now have a very large stockpile of food I don’t feel good about.

The company does claim that the food “… is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO …”. The vitamin/mineral data that they have on their website does, from what I had looked at. The disturbingly high calcium and phosphorus numbers came from data emailed to me by a rep when I asked a question about what was online. What she emailed me was significantly different in many ways from what is online. For both the Duck and Turkey recipes. When I asked about that the communications stopped. As I said, I’m done with them. There is no point in pushing the issue any more, plus I don’t want to get the rep who sent me the updated data in trouble. She was just trying to be helpful.
Well I had better sign off and take the mutts for a walk. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Aimee and crazy4cats – I’m glad you guys have problems with the forum website too, so I don’t feel it is just my ineptness.

On the AAFCO Chapter 6 – I was able to download it from the link Aimee provided. They just asked for my email address and why I was interested and I checked “pet owner” and then was taken to the document. I haven’t QUITE finished reading the entire chapter yet though. 🙂

And thanks for the WSAVA link crazy4cats. Patricia A had called my attention to WSAVA earlier and I’m glad she did. The link you provided is a nice summary and I just downloaded it.

On food allergies – I did start another topic under Diet and Health. I know now how Aimee feels, but if you guys want to weigh in more over there that would be great.

[Mutts and Cats]

Aimee – thanks for the additional discussion on the DCM/food issue too. It is interesting that 4 years later there is still no agreement by experts on the issue. My conspiracy theory brain is going crazy. 🙂

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. You have really given me much to think about and I am changing my perspective a bit and reevaluating what my priorities should be when assessing the quality of a food and trustworthiness of the company. Your points on the quality, and even definition, of meat are definitely sinking in. I feel now like I had blinders on in thinking that as long as the percentage of meat was high in a food then all was good.

I’m starting to feel that maybe I should just bite the bullet and start making my own food.
Right now I’m in a transition period where my dogs get about 1/2 their caloric intake from fresh meat and turkey necks and the other 1/2 from commercial (raw frozen and freeze dried). I recently started keeping track of all the vitamins/minerals they are getting from everything they eat. I was previously just focusing on calcium, phosphorous and a few other things – hoping everything else was ok. But now that I have been moving toward more meat and less commercial (because I’m not sure I trust the brands I’m feeding), it’s getting to the point I’m going to have to add supplements or add more ingredients to the fresh food. To make things more challenging, I recently had one of my dogs tested for food allergies and he is allergic (IgE reaction) to every vegetable they tested for (but, oddly, not allergic to any meats), so this further limits what I can feed him. But, I also can’t decide if I trust the allergy testing . . .
I’m getting very frustrated and anxious. Thanks for taking the time to post with me. You have helped me a lot. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Aimee – thanks for the second reply too. I didn’t see that one until after I sent my reply. I continue to be baffled by this forum website. I’m often not seeing replies to my posts until I move around within the website, or log out then back in. I guess thus refreshing things. Weird.

So you did kind of answer my second question in your second reply. As I understand your reply, you do seem to think that such high Ca and P numbers (and high mineral contents in general) are a concern, even though the Ca:P ratio is where it should be.

I really should just let go of my first concern that something fishy is going on with the numbers, but letting go is not just not me I guess . . . Plus, I do want to understand this stuff better. Thanks for helping me with that. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks Aimee for the link and additional info on meat. I guess I didn’t read far enough to learn that the meat vs. bone rules are different for poultry.

It’s still bugging me that the 3.15% figure for phosphorous seems too high if they are using just meat, organs, and bones for the ingredients. It seems like the phosphorous can’t be that high without the calcium being even higher than 3.91%.
From my research on the calcium and phosphorous content of meats and bones, the duck meat should have a phosphorous content of only about 0.6% (dry matter) and the organs a little higher, but still barely over 1%. And of course very little Ca for the meat and organs. The Ca:P ratio of bone is generally between 2.0 and 2.5. So when I crunch numbers I just can’t figure out how they could have gotten to 3.91% and 3.15%. If they are using bone to get the P that high then the Ca should be much higher, yet they have conveniently ended up with a 1.2:1 Ca:P ratio. But, I’m probably missing something, and my comps are fairly crude, especially for the organs. So . . . it’s probably possible with the listed ingredients, but I have a nagging feeling that things don’t add up. Please speak up if you see any flaws in my numbers/logic.

Even if the 3.91% and 3.15% figures are possible with the listed ingredients, they are still high enough to possibly be a health concern in my mind, even though they have kept the Ca:P ratio at 1.2:1. They are way over the AAFCO maximums of 1.8% and 1.6%. Welcome your thoughts. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Aimee and crazy4cats – if you guys care to weigh in on this other obsession of mine too – maybe help me see errors in my thinking – that would be great. Reading on the AAFCO page from the link crazy4cats provided, the definition of “meat” clearly states that it does not include bone. I was pretty sure that was the case, and most companies who add bone either state “including bone” or list the bone parts as individual ingredients. This got me thinking about another topic that has been bothering me. I mentioned earlier in this post how I lost my trust in a certain company because of anomalies in their online vitamin/mineral data, and my suspicions that the data didn’t jive with the ingredients.
One of my big concerns was the high variation in calcium and phosphorous content (between different recipes and between what is online vs additional info provided by a rep). That, plus my feeling that just based on the ingredients listed on the packaging I can’t figure out how these high calcium and phosphorous numbers are even possible. But, I’ve just recently become interested in the gory details of dog nutrition, so I’m probably missing something.

For example, for their Duck recipe, the dry matter values for calcium and phosphorous are 3.91% and 3.15%. These were provided by a company rep as the most current info and are much higher than what is currently on the website (1.79% and 1.52%). The large increase is disturbing, given there has been no change in the ingredients, but even more disturbing to me is how the heck could that food even have 3.91% and 3.15% given the ingredients? Seems to me they would have to be including bone and even then it’s pretty hard to get to 3.15% phosphorous just using meat with some bone included, isn’t it? I can’t help but suspect they are using something like dicalcium phosphate, but not listing it as an ingredient. Or, there is something terribly wrong with their analysis methods.
Ingredients:
Duck, duck gizzard, duck heart, duck liver, herring oil, mixed tocopherols (preservative), vitamin E supplement, zinc amino acid complex, iron amino acid complex, copper amino acid complex, manganese amino acid complex

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Yes I acknowledge that my dog food protein philosophy (obsession even?) is not shared by all. Many company reps have tried to convince me that it is not important that dogs get their protein from meat. Other ingredients in the right combination are just as good . . . etc. I think it was because I got so angry when I first started researching the DCM vs diet issue (just after my dog died) when I realized that the fairly expensive brands I had been feeding appeared to be very guilty of ingredient splitting and almost certainly most of their protein was coming from peas and other legumes. So I have really dug in my heels on the issue. But I do respect your point that there is a big difference between one company who may be producing a food by looking at combinations of plant based amino acids to meet a dog’s protein needs vs. another who says “hey – we could make a lot more money if we just start using less meat and more peas”.

I wish that I could get comfortable with the idea that my dogs could thrive on less meat. I personally am such an animal lover that I don’t like to eat them. But because I have a soy allergy I decided years ago that I just wasn’t getting enough protein while eating vegetarian. So now I draw the line at fish, and do eat that regularly. But, despite how much it grosses me out, I cut up turkey and steak for my dogs because I strongly believe that they need it.

And although you have made good points about the value of transparency, I feel that given my time constraints for thorough research of companies, transparency is one of the best indicators I have for evaluating a company. My conclusion that the company appears to be transparent from their website, packaging, my correspondence with reps, and product reviews – not their claims. And if they are not willing to disclose the percent protein from meat, or percent meat ingredients, then that’s just a non-starter for me. Why would they not want to disclose it if they are producing a good product?

I wasn’t suggesting that FDA claimed a link between grain free and DCM. I was just typing quickly and I guess it came across that way. I’m certainly glad that FDA started releasing information pretty quickly and probably even before they had a theory as to what was going on. I’ve read articles by conspiracy theorists who think FDA was trying to do damage to the small companies that were promoting grain free, and given my slight conspiracy-theory-distrust-of-Gov’t-agencies outlook, I couldn’t help but wonder if there was some truth to that (ironically, I’m a retired fed.) Maybe FDA had nothing to do with that issue getting spun into a connection between grain-free foods and DCM, but somehow that is what happened.

On the subject of “… strong correlation between foods high in pulse ingredients and possible potato and DCM.” – what are your thoughts on the why? At the point that I mostly stopped reading on the topic, well over a year ago, there was still much speculation about whether peas/legumes might be acting as an anti-nutrient, or if it was just a case of the dogs not getting enough quality protein, or some other reason. At that point it was looking like potatoes were become an ingredient of less concern. No?

[Mutts and Cats]

Thanks crazy4cats for that link. Very interesting stuff. Think I had better abstain from paying for a prescription though. I already spend way too much time obsessing about dog food. 🙂

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Aimee. Interesting information regarding the legal definition of meat and good food for thought for me (bad pun). It really does come down to trusting the company. However, transparency is a must for me and I feel that any company that doesn’t want to state the percent protein from meat (or just percent meat ingredients) is not transparent enough for me. But you absolutely make a good point that I need to dig in and make sure I trust the company enough to believe their claims.
After my revelations following the 2018/2019 DCM vs grain free horrors, I became very untrusting of dog food companies in general. After a lot of research, my take was that the situation wasn’t what FDA was initially suggesting (grain free = DCM), but it did uncover something really ugly in the pet food industry. That many companies were using peas/legumes to lower the meat content so they could make more money. Plus ingredient splitting came on my radar. I refuse to go back to the guessing games based on order of ingredients. I feel my blood pressure spiking just thinking back on how angry I was at those revelations. Deep breaths . . .
Thanks for the food for thought. To be added to my VERY LONG LIST of dog food concerns. M&C

[Mutts and Cats]

Hi Patricia A. Thanks for helping me laugh – at myself. Your example of the Small Batch worries is funny, and I can think of dozens of similar things that I have/do worry about. I need to do more laughing at myself to lower this dog nutrition anxiety that I have brought upon myself. And the idea that my dog’s health problems can be cured if I can only find the right food.
When I look back over the last few years, it’s a never ending cycle of researching some dog/cat nutrition concern – depending on who in my pet family is having health problems. I’m going with your thought that because we care so much we may drive ourselves a little crazy, but we are truly the best dog/cat moms ever. Yea us!
Don’t lose your sense of humor. M&C

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