[aimee]

Hi billhill,
Thanks for posting this link. In past posts I had said I thought it likely that we have selected for animals that did well on carb based diets, so the wolf and the dog are probably a bit different in that regard. It is nice to see research that fleshed out my hunch.

[aimee]

You are welcome Matt,

Glad you found it helpful

[aimee]

When looking for something else I came across this paper which I think is a well done objective look at feeding dogs a vegetarian diet.

http://www.une.edu.au/ers/staff-profile-doc-folders/wendy-brown/brown-raan-2009-vegetarian-dog.pdf

[aimee]

Hi Risuchan,

She is super cute!! No diet suggestions. The only suggestion I’d have is to have her urine checked for infection. With her past history of UTI it is possible that an infection with a bacteria that increases crystal formation is present.

Good Luck

[aimee]

Thanks Matt,

Glad I could help. I prefer to see soy as a protein source in a veg. diet as it has a decent AA profile. I think (???) Nature’s Recipe has been through feeding trials and they have a canned version which is a little higher in protein than most dry veg. diets if you carry that brand.

One of the concerns with vegetarian diets is getting enough sulfur containing AA into the dog. If the diet is marginal in those AA and the dog’s energy intake to maintain a good body score is on the low end, the dog may not be consuming enough food to meet it’s AA needs. ( Newfoundlands have much lower energy requirements than other breeds which is why I think they were the ones to suffer from the effects of the aforementioned Lamb and Rice diet.)

Kind Regards

[aimee]

Hi Matt
Like others I think most people who want to feed a vegetarian diet to their dog do so because they themselves are vegetarian. I do though recall vegetarian diets sometimes being rec. for Dalmatians to prevent stone formation. My own dog was raised on a meatless diet because of a liver condition.

Dogs do not have any requirements that can not be met by plants so it is possible to have a dog be a vegetarian and thrive. By blending plant proteins there is no reason why the full AA complement can not be met. BUT where my concern comes in is are the commercial vegetarian diets always adequate?? Is the dog getting out of the diet what it needs to? Considering that not to long ago there was a problems found with lamb and rice diets leading to heart problems, I always keep in the back of my mind that what a dog gets out of a diet may not be what we think it does. That applies to all diets, not just vegetarian diets but there is less margin for error in a vegetarian diet.

As far as your customers, if you advocate against vegetarian foods they may just go elsewhere so as to “avoid the lecture”. If this is what they have chosen then it may be best for you to advise them how they can best do it, just as you would advise someone how to feed a raw diet properly instead of saying “don’t feed raw”. For me that means rotating companies and protein sources often so that if one company diet is deficient the others may make up for it. Advise them to use diets made by large companies with nutritionists on staff, that do feeding trials (Purina, Royal Canin), vs a small company with “a vision”. Inquire if they are looking for vegan vs vegetarian. ( Is a diet that is based in egg /dairy acceptable in their rotation?) JMO but I think your customers would be better served by sharing concerns and helping them make good choices vs just advising against a vegetarian diet.

[aimee]

Dear Jan,

May the treasured memories of the life you shared with Stella help ease the sadness you must now feel. With deepest sympathy; I’m so sorry for your loss.
aimee

[aimee]

Hi Flovlt,

This link may be helpful.

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=587755&sk=&date=&&pageID=1

You didn’t say what stone type your dog had but this covers the most common types.

[aimee]

Oh Ok… i thought you meant the “they” was the AVMA.

I’m not a big conspiracy theorist. I don’t think the AVMA anti raw had anything to do with commercial kibble providers. If it did why do they specifically recommend cooked foods or leave a loop hole for raw diets rendered pathogen free by processing?

I saw that the Connecticut VMA is bringing the homeopathy issue to the table, so it really isn’t the AVMA that initiated it. It seems to me a process, like bringing a bill before congress. The CVMA wants the issue evaluated.

I do see that AVMA passed a policy to encourage to allow exemption from Rabies vaccination. Not all states allow this and AVMA is saying they should. So to me that is advocating for the animals health. shrug

And yes vets give raw feeders “the lecture” to CYA against liability. but once given and documented in the record hopefully the focus should be on making sure the person is feeding a balanced diet. JMO

[aimee]

I’m not sure who the “they” is. I’m interpreting the rec. as being that it will be up to the hosting club, in which case there likely will be variations. Where I do see a problem is how to do confirm that a dog doesn’t have internal parasites ? A test is only a snapshot in time.

I’m wondering if the increasing public presence of the AVMA has anything to do with the “One Health” initiative???

[aimee]

i8ok,

I don’t see that price comparison as being valid. The Plato product is a chicken and rice product with 30 % protein and 30% fat and likely 25% carbs. From my standpoint the organic chicken used in the Plato product must include a lot of organic chicken fat : ) I think the price difference of the Plato product is a reflection of the fat and carb content in that product. Dehydrated chicken breast should be about 80 % protein and only 10% fat.

[aimee]

I took a look too. It seems AVMA is inviting AKC into a discussion revolving around animal health. I looked at the AKC rules and reg for showing and their section on health seems very limited in scope and outdated. Maybe I just was looking in the wrong location??

The take away I had was the AVMA wants to encourage the clubs hosting the shows to establish health recommendations for the exhibitors based on local disease incidence. They are recommending that all exhibitors dogs be free of parasites but I too didn’t see this as AVMA saying all dogs had to be on heartworm and flea and tick prevention just that they not be carrying. : )

I also took a skim through the AVMA’s Prinicples of Vaccination and it seems if anything AVMA is saying use vaccine judiciously based on risk assessment.

[aimee]

I recently have been reading of the benefits of resistant starch. I noted that tapioca was not on any of the lists I came across reporting good sources for resistant starch (potato, beans. banana, grains). Looking further I found that tapioca is a base from which resistant starch is being made, specifically Actistar by Cargill. In other words tapioca is being modified in order to make it resistant. This then leads me to believe that unmodified tapioca is not high in resistant starch, otherwise why the need to modify it??? Hmmm….now my curiosity is piqued!

So I started reading about tapioca in general and I didn’t find any mention of tapioca having a high proportion of resistant starch or having beneficial effects as a prebiotic. Instead I found it described as a rapidly digested starch.

Next I hit pubmed and the few studies I found that evaluated the pre cecal digestion of tapioca reported pre cecal digestion of tapioca at 99%. In other word very little made it to the colon undigested. The only study I found in which a significant portion was presented to the colon unchanged was when raw tapioca was fed. But of course the tapioca in kibble has been cooked.

So now I’m frustrated as I can not find one shred of evidence to support the idea that tapioca is nearly 50% resistant starch. Does anyone have any???

[aimee]

Beth,

I just wanted to say I admire your strength and courage for being a responsible and loving owner to your dear dog. We as a society recognize that some people are too dangerous to live among us. There are dogs that simply are not safe to live with either. We want so desperately for these dogs to be normal which is why we grasp at any straw, like diet change, to fix them. But sadly it is not the case.

[aimee]

Hi Emtnicki,

Melissaandcrew gave you excellent advice. There were a few papers published that concluded lower protein diets decreased certain types of aggression. In my opinion there were some problems in how the studies were run and I don’t think the results were really valid. If you want to continue with lower protein foods you may want to take a look at “senior” diets as many companies lower the protein in their foods marketed to that age group.

In general when working with resource guarders if the item is not dangerous to the dog and not vitally important to you then let the dog keep it. Only remove the item after the dog has abandoned it and it and there is a solid barrier between you and the dog.

You don’t want the dog to pair getting cheese or hot dog or a walk etc with stealing and possessing an item. This is why Melissa recommended establishing the cue “let’s get cheese” independent of when the dog has something. There should be many “let’s get cheese” cues without needing to recover an item compared to using it to recover an item.

For professionals to assist you I’d look to see if there are any veterinary behaviorists in your area
http://www.dacvb.org or Karen Pryor Academy trainers https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer

[aimee]

The wild coyote population isn’t “over vaccinated, fed processed pet food, given flea & tick preventative, and are being treated with suppressive drugs for every little thing that comes along.” yet when surveyed in a non-drought year over 90% of the adult coyotes in northern Ca were heartworm positive.

Christie Keith, owner of naturally raised deerhounds, used to think the same way…. until her dogs got heartworm.

“I have no intention of ever living through what I lived through with Raven and Bran. I can’t keep silent when I see people starting to believe that healthy animals don’t get heartworm and that we can blithely forgo using preventatives if we don’t overvaccinate and feed raw. It’s just not so.

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjheartwormprevention.html

Conventional heartworm prevention is still the best insurance against heartworms.

[aimee]

Hi Sedlypets,

I’ve owned a number of labs… I’m beginning to think they all have metabolism issues : ) I always try to feed a lower fat food (10-12% as it allows me to feed more volume) and higher protein around 30% plus if possible. I’ve fed Wellness Core reduced fat, Royal Canin weight care, Evo weight management (higher cal/ cup so have to really watch volume) and Purina weight management.

Keeping track of calories is essential. If multiple family members are each giving the dog “just a taste” or “just a few treats” it adds up.

Sometimes it really is best to go with a vet product geared specifically for weight loss. Nutrients in commercial food are tied to energy. When feeding small amounts of energy for weight loss it is possible to short change nutrients. Most dogs I feel can be safely dieted on an OTC food but for some you may need to switch.

[aimee]

Hi BryanV21,

I brush my dogs teeth, provide chews (never bones) and like you thought that the idea that “dry diets are better for teeth” was a long stretch. But I came across some interesting publications looking at this issue and I find that I need to alter my beliefs. Certainly I don’t think that dry food equates with a healthy mouth, and maybe the overall health significance between dry fed and wet fed pets may not be great, but it looks like there is some basis to “the myth”

“Even after adjustment for age, the mean oral health index was significantly higher in cats and dogs fed soft food compared with those fed dry or mixed food, and the mean oral health index was significantly higher in cats and dogs fed mixed food than in those fed dry food. These results indicate that feeding a dry food diet has a positive influence on oral health, decreasing the occurrence of mandibular lymphadenopathy, dental deposits, and periodontal disease in cats and dogs.”

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/2021S.long

[aimee]

Hi gsyorkielover,
I’m not sure how to answer this except to say that the dietary goals of therapeutic diets can often be met in different ways. Sometime only by a home cooked diet. As an example, the protein level in any OTC food will be much higher than that in U/D.

[aimee]

Hound Dog Mom,
That is a great compilation of articles on large breed growth. The most important tenets of large breed nutrition are to keep the puppy lean during the growth period and to feed foods that have a calcium level near 1% (dry diets).

Calcium levels over 1.3 % in a dry food are likely approaching or above the safe upper limit for growth. Since there is no benefit to feeding these higher calcium products to a growing large breed and there may well be risk to the developing skeleton, IMHO they should not be fed during the growth period of a large/giant breed puppy.

Unfortunately, manufactures may state their foods are appropriate for large breed growth when they exceed the recommended level and may even say it is a dietary factor other than calcium that is responsible for the growth problems seen in large breeds. It really is a buyer beware situation as even foods labeled as “large breed puppy” sometimes exceed the recommended level of calcium.

On a energy basis the recommended amount of calcium is 3 grams/1000 kcals. The National Research Council sets the safe upper limit for calcium during growth at 4.5 grams/1000kcals. The European Pet Food Association sets the limit at 4 grams calcium /1000 kcals in puppies less than 6 months. AAFCO allows 7.14 grams/1000 kcals which is why large breed puppy owners have to be vigilant.

Additionally, as you pointed out, when evaluating calcium levels in foods you have the know the actual calcium level in the food. Manufactures often report min. calcium levels so that their foods appear to have a calcium level lower than what they actually have.

[aimee]

When Greenies were first marketed veterinarians saw cases of esophageal obstruction from the product. The obstructions proved difficult to resolve and had a higher complication rate than other types of obstructions. The product has since been reformulated to address that problem.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18380620

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