[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Flossie –

I wouldn’t feed Canidae because their food (or at least most of it) is manufactured by Diamond.

I wouldn’t feed Blue Buffalo because I believe they have poor quality control and no integrity. Last summer I purchased a bag of their dog biscuits and there were bugs in the bag. A month later I bought a bag of their cat food and upon opening it found that it was covered with mold. That same summer a friend of mine started her puppy on Blue Buffalo and the dog got very sick, the issues cleared up as soon as she switched foods. Many other have reported similar issues – the stories are all over the web – however Blue continuously denies that there are any problems with their products. Go to truthaboutpetfood(dot)com and type in Blue Buffalo – check out the articles.

I wouldn’t feed Nutro mainly due to the fact that they don’t have a single formula high enough in protein for my tastes. I also don’t like that Nutro is owned by Mars – a large corporation (also makes Pedigree and Royal Canin). There have been a lot of complaints about Nutro lately as well (you can also check these out on Truth About Pet Food).

[Sully’sMom]

Looking back a few responses ago, I think what I’m still left wondering about, when I was mentioning the varying protein levels and kcals is: every time you rotate to a new food, do you need to adjust the quantity you feed? This should be my last remaining confusion! (I had my previous dog 16 years and we never rotated)

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

42% protein is definitely not too high – my girls’ meals are generally in the 45% – 55% protein range. There’s really no risk of feeding “too much protein” to a healthy dog and this issue definitely would not occur with a kibble – most kibbles are much lower in protein than a natural raw diets due to the nature of kibble (a starch source is required for processing). When excess protein is consumed beyond what the dog’s body utilizes, the excess amino acids are catabolized into waste nitrogen, converted to urea in the liver and kidneys and excreted in the urine. This is a passive process that does not cause any harm or additional stress to the dog. I personally prefer kibbles with at least 30% protein. Victor Ultra Pro looks like an excellent food and I’ve heard great things about it.

[LindaW]

My 12 week old Golden has been weaned onto raw by her “natural rearing” breeder. Yay! Although the breeder told me she ate her raw “with gusto”, she will not eat it now (with me). I am feeding same company, same food as she had been eating when weaned. I don’t want to change from raw, but she won’t eat turkey, coarse ground turkey necks, beef, chicken, duck. She’ll eat chicken necks and some tripe. In a 24-hr period, she eats maybe 1/4 pound. That is not enough for a growing pup! HELP! Thank you.

[theBCnut]

Hi Sully’s Mom

I like Nature’s Variety Instinct, but I would skip the Raw Boost. There aren’t enough of the raw pieces to matter, it’s just marketing.

I wouldn’t feed as low a protein as your Fromm’s, but for rotational purposes, no, you don’t have to match protein%, fat%, or calories. I try to keep in the same range just so I don’t have to adjust how much I feed by very much. And some dogs are sensitive to changes in fat level, but not usually rotational feeders, unless they have pancreas problems.

You don’t need to limit yourself to 3 choices. I love finding a new food that I can add to my rotation. Keep notes on how they do on what or pretty soon you will be confused about whether it was X or Y that your dog did this or that while eating it.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 4 months ago by theBCnut.

[Lemdem]

I’m loving this thread! It’s really informative!

I work at Petco, and I have a lot of pet parents come in when they get a new puppy. Not everyone can afford (or is willing to pay for) these more expensive, quality brands, and I was wondering if you might be able to show me a few formulas in the different price ranges so I can recommend the best food for their budget. I’ve always had small breed dogs, so cost isn’t as much of an issue for me as it is for parents of dogs who will eat 4+ cups a day.

Is Nutro Max Large Breed Puppy a decent food in the $1/lb range? It seems to be the best one i’ve seen in the price range. It’s got a bunch of corn and wheat, but still manages to get a 3.5 on DFA, which is pretty impressive for $30 a bag. Is their LBP formula worth anything?

Any other suggestions? The cheapo brands we carry at my store are Purina( Chef Michaels, Puppy Chow, Beneful, One) & Pedigree, and a small jump up in price, Iams and Nutro Max.

Of those foods, in those two price ranges, which one would be the least harmful for a large breed puppy? The Purina and Pedigree are such garbage, does it even make a difference which one you feed?

Whole Earth Farms is also around the Nutro Max price range, at about $40 a bag. Is the adult formula appropriate for LB puppies?

I’ve read a lot of different things about LBP nutrition. Is it true that if an appropriate LBP formula is not available, then an adult formula is better than a regular puppy food?

I really appreciate all of your time! Your list was really, really helpful.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi jessica –

It is perfectly okay to mix a grain-inclusive food with a grain-free topper and vice versa. As far as portioning meals, a lot of people struggle with this so you’re not alone. My advice is always to closely monitor the dog’s body condition – pup’s should have their body condition checked once or twice a week, adult dogs can have it checked less frequently such as every month or so. There really is no person or feeding chart than can tell you how much to feed your pup – energy requirements vary drastically between dogs based on factors such as size, breed, age, activity level, environment, etc. etc. You can use the feeding recommendations on the bag as a starting point, but I personally have always found them to be way off. My dogs have always required much more than the amount recommended on the bag and I know several individuals who’ve had the opposite experience – their dogs have required much less than what’s recommended on the bag. It’s just like people – there are some that can seemingly eat whatever they want and remain slim, some that so much as think about a cupcake and they gain 10 pounds and others that fall somewhere in between. Feeding charts on the bag are nothing more than a recommendation. What I do personally is feed my dogs based on calories – many people hate this method however I’ve found it to be the most successful. I know how many calories each of my dogs need per day to maintain optimum body condition and I feed them based on calories – not % of body weight, cups of food, etc. This also accounts for differences in caloric density between foods. It’s not time consuming for me because after years of doing it I, for the most part, have the calorie content of every food memorized or can make a very accurate estimate. As for accounting for the canned topper, in general, one large can of food is roughly equal in calories to 1 C. of kibble. So if you feed one can a day, feed once less cup of kibble or if you feed 1/2 can a day feed 1/2 c. less kibble, etc.

[sharfie]

Jules-
The 4% is from the raw food forum and the % to feed if you are feeding a raw diet. I had to switch my puppy to raw a few days ago. He has had loose poops and after trying different ways to clear it up and consulting with the vet, nothing was working. I switched to raw a few days ago and things are much better.

[Jessica1]

Hi H.D.M,
Thank you so much for all the information, it has really helped me. It’s great to know that rotating grain & non grain is acceptable and won’t cause problems. Thank you also for the information on the teeth and kibble, what you are saying makes perfect sense. I just never thought much to question the vet.
I just took our “little” rescue, Takoda in for his 2nd DHLPP & Bord. and the vet thinks they were wrong about his age and may only be 8 – 9 weeks and is already 16lbs, he is not overweight but he is solid. This leads me to my next two questions. (which I see Londoncalling is asking too) When you use the can food as a topper I don’t want to overfeed him or underfeed, how do I determine the amount to use as the topper and the amount of dry? The package on the Organix for his age & weight reads 2 ¾ – 4 cups (which I think is a big difference) I’m not currently at this point yet as I am still transitioning him over from the Pedigree, he should be on full Organix in the next day or so. (yesterday his stool was soft, today I was at ¾ mix and he got the runs).
If you’re adding a can topper is there a good guideline to use on how much kibble and how much topper. I just don’t want to over or under do it.
Even with the guidelines on the bag, I am not quite sure what would be the correct amount for him, and his size.
He has never gulped his food and sometimes doesn’t seem very interested in it until “he” is ready to eat. When I first gave him the Organix he seemed to love it, and tried to pick out just those pieces, now I’m not sure. Now he seems to only eat it because he is hungry not because he is enjoying it. (But, he never gulped the pedigree either).
The 2nd part of my question; should I only use a grain inclusive topper when using grain inclusive foods? Rotating from grain to non grain I know you said would be okay but I wasn’t sure if actually mixing grain with non grain topper would cause a problem. My main reason for asking, Organix doesn’t have a puppy formula and I’ve heard good things about the Wellness puppy can food, but it’s a non grain, and I am not sure what would be a good “grain” large breed puppy can food.
Thanks again!

[mah4angel]

Hi! I’d like to start out by saying to ChristyGH and dendad, I am SO SO sorry for your losses! I know it’s easy to feel bad about your choice of diet for your babies but it is absolutely NOT your fault!! We all can see how much love you had for your babies and all of us have been there! You had every reason to believe that you were doing the best for your babies and no one should ever begrudge you for it, including yourself <3

I’m on my way to feeding my Louie (a 10-pound Silky) 100% raw and had a few suggestions myself.

His previous owners had him on pretty much whatever was on sale at the grocery store/whatever they decided to pick up from Costco that day (Pedigree, Purina etc.). The one he was on when we took him home was Purina Puppy Chow (we got him four months ago and he’s three, not a puppy anymore).

I’ve personally found that it was easier to transition him from the CRAP he was eating before slowly up the ladder of great-quality foods. I would buy small batches of each new food (5-10 pounds if available) which would last him for a month or so and then move on to a higher quality kibble. Every time I’ve upgraded his food, he’s picked out the old one from his bowl! ^_^

It’s important to mention how to transition a dog. You have to transition SLOWLY, very very slowly. You’re going to keep a certain ratio of new food to old food for a week OR if her bowel movements change, wait until they turn to normal to move onto the next ratio. At first, have 25% of the new food, and 75% of the old food. Then (once everything is normal) do 50% new 50% old. Finally, 75% new, 25% old until it’s 100% new food.

My suggestion (after going through this whole process) would be to do this (remember to ALWAYS properly transition your pup between each step and add probiotics/digestive enzymes and fiber):

-Change from Science Diet to a four-star kibble (something like Nature’s Domain: http://www.naturesdomainpetfood.com/ which is sold at Costco in HUGE bags so it might not be the best for a little one like yours)

-Then from a four-star kibble to a five-star kibble (like Innova Prime: http://www.petco.com/product/118780/Innova-Prime-Grain-Free-Beef-And-Lamb-Adult-Dry-Dog-Food.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch, or Earthborn Holistic: http://www.petflow.com/product/earthborn-holistic/earthborn-holistic-primitive-natural-grain-free-dry-dog-food). I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Earthborn Holistic products, they are GREAT quality and my Louie adores the Primitive Natural kibble.

-Then start SLOWLY adding in wet food to the kibble (like the Earthborn dinners: http://www.petflow.com/product/earthborn-holistic/earthborn-holistic-duke-s-din-din-gourmet-dinner-wet-dog-food).

-Then, switch from the five-star kibble to something that has raw in it like Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost food (which has bits of freeze-dried raw in it): http://www.petflow.com/product/natures-variety/nature-s-variety-instinct-grain-free-raw-boost-venison-meal-lamb-meal-dry-dog-food. Continue to add in the wet food.

-Then go to a 100% raw kibble like DNA (air-dried raw, stands for Dried N Alive): http://www.dnapetfood.com/node/20, or something similar. At first, I would continue to add in the wet food to this, but then I would transition her to 100% DNA (or whatever food you decide to use).

-And then transition from that to a pre-made frozen raw OR you could totally cut costs and make your own (which is what I’m doing), and then you’ll have 100% control over what she’s eating 😀

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by mah4angel.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jules –

If you were feeding only canned or raw foods, yes you should watch the calcium level. If you are only using them as a topper to a kibble with appropriate levels of calcium, I wouldn’t worry about it. I am getting together a list of suitable commercially available raw foods, I don’t plan on doing canned foods in the near future though – sorry! What I did with Mabel when she was a pup was to replace about 25% of what my other two adults were eating with raw green tripe which has a low, but balanced, calcium to phosphorus ratio (I make homemade raw). Sounds like we’re on nearly opposite sides of the country – I’m located in northern New York about 15 miles from the Canadian border!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jessica1 –

The Organix puppy formula is 1.05% calcium and has 2.89 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. – so yes, it’s a good choice. It would be perfectly fine to use both grain-inclusive and grain-free foods in a rotational feeding program. Many people are under the assumption that dry food is good for dental health – you’re not the only one. For the most part, this is a myth. Some dogs that thoroughly chew their kibble may may derive some benefit in comparison to a soft food however this benefit is minimal and will not be enough to prevent periodontal disease and – in my experience – most dogs don’t thoroughly chew kibble and therefore would receive no benefit. The only food that promotes dental health is a raw meaty bones diet and any dog eating commercial food, be it kibble or canned food, will need their teeth brushed on a regular basis or they will get eventually develop periodontal disease to some degree. Your vet telling you that your dog will have good dental health as long as he eats kibble would be the equivalent of your dentist telling you that you don’t need to brush your teeth as long as you eat crunchy foods – kind of silly, right? About 85% of dogs fed commercial foods over the age of 3 have some degree of periodontal disease, oftentimes it goes unnoticed by owners. Many people think “doggie breath” is normal, but it’s not. A dog’s breath should have no odor. All of the Organix canned foods appear that they’re labeled for adult maintenance, however if you’re only using the canned food as a topper and the bulk of the puppy’s diet is going to be a dry food approved for growth or all life stages this is fine. You could also top the Organix puppy kibble with a canned food labeled for growth from another brand, there’s no reason you can mix different brands of kibble and canned food. I hope that helps!

[Jessica1]

Hello H.D.M, Thank you so much for all your insight. My puppy is between 9-10 wks and a mix between GSD and Bernese Mountain Dog (they think, he is a rescue). He currently weighs 15lbs, so I know he will be a big boy. He was being feed Pedigree so I wanted to start to transition him right away to a better quality food, for health and developmental reasons. I was getting confused with all the info that is out there but finding you has been great, informative and easy to understand.
I really wanted to do the non grain. But, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to start a non grain food since the costs are high I didn’t want to switch if I couldn’t keep it up. So I put him on Organix Puppy (dry), due to the ingredients the higher standards of organics. Would this be listed on your new list as a good choice?
My second question, you state rotational feeding, would a rotation with non grain and grain inclusive be a good idea? Lastly, I was always told (by my vet) kibble was better for their teeth than canned food, but you state canned food is better for their health, so until now I never gave can food much thought. In the Organix brand I didn’t see a can puppy formula, are their big differences that I should be looking for if I want to start giving him canned? Thank you.

[sharfie]

So, I am a bit confused. Right now I am feeding my puppy NV Turkey and adding Bravo Buffalo Boneless as a topper. If I were to use Bravo Balance or a canned food, which is a complete and balanced raw food, would it raise the calcium to a level that is too high?

Thanks so much for your help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi londoncalling1996 –

That’s too bad your store didn’t carry any of the foods. 🙁 If you’re not opposed to online ordering there are many sites that sell a wider variety of foods than you could find in a store and they also typically have lower prices – most also offer free shipping with no weight limit when you spend a certain amount of money (usually orders over $49). I’d recommend checking out wag.com, chewy.com, petflow.com and naturalk9supplies.com. Also the new lists should give you many additional options to choose from.

I definitely feel that, if it’s financially feasible, non-dry foods should be fed as a sole diet or at least in addition to kibble. Dry food is actually the worst thing to feed a dog – however to to budget and time constraints it, understandably, comprises the bulk of most dog’s diets. I urge you to check out this article Dr. Marty Goldstein (one of my all time favorite veterinarians) posted on his blog, it ranks the different types of food from best to worst: drmarty.com/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-for-best-health/

If you add wet food you should count account for this in her daily food intake – just monitor her weight and if she’s gaining too much start feeding a little less. One of my all time favorite wet food toppers (especially for large breed puppies) is Tripett. I like Tripett for several reasons: 1) high protein/moderate fat/low carbohydrate (ideal); 2) it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but very low amounts of each, so it can effectively be used to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio in any food fed to a large breed puppy without the risk of throwing off the balance and 3) dogs go absolutely nuts for it (people hate it – if you feed it you’ll see why – but they love it). The only thing I want to note with Tripett is that it’s not a complete and balanced food (it’s just canned green tripe) so if you do feed it make sure it doesn’t exceed 20% of the meal or you could throw off the nutritional balance. Some other more balanced canned foods that I like that could account for over 20% of the meal are: ZiwiPeak, Addiction, Nature’s Logic, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Merrick. Dr. Mike has a great compilation of high quality canned foods over on the review site as well. If you’re looking for a quality yet budget friendly canned food (canned food can be quite pricey, especially when feeding a large breed puppy) I’d recommend checking out 4Health (available at Tractor Supply, $0.99 per can), Pure Balance (available at Walmart, $1 per can), Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (available at Costco, $0.79 per can), Whole Earth Farms (available at many online retailers about $1.50 per can) – these foods are all 4 – 5 star quality. Some other toppers you could use are dehdyrated foods (i.e. The Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s, etc.) – these foods are about the same consistency as a stew type canned food when rehydrated, a balanced frozen or freeze-dried commercial raw food (freeze-dried rehydrates to canned food consistency) or fresh toppers such as sardines, eggs, plain yogurt or left over lean meat or steam veggies from your dinner.

Digestive aids aren’t necessary, but many feel they’re beneficial. Many of the regulars here supplement with probiotics and enzymes. I don’t supplement with either because my dogs eat a raw diet (naturally occurring enzymes) and consume raw green tripe (rich in enzymes and probiotics) and kefir (rich in probiotics) on a regular basis. If feeding cooked food only (like kibble and canned) I do feel that enzymes and probiotics can provide benefit.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi julez4you –

The calcium levels in this particular formula are appropriate for a large breed puppy and it is an all life stages food however – imho – it’s way too low in protein and fat. If you do feed it, I would definitely recommend topping with a high protein canned food or adding some fresh meat/eggs/etc. I definitely feel high protein is preferable. I’m a big fan of THK and, in fact, my two year old was weaned onto THK and ate it until she was 8 months old – Love was a staple in the rotation.

I completely understand where you’re coming from with the raw thing. Commercial raw is very expensive – especially for large dogs. I could never afford commercial raw for my two given the amount that they eat. I’m able to do homemade fairly cheaply but it does get quite time consuming.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi DellUSN –

Yes – I feel that the sooner a rotational feeding program is implemented the better. There are several reasons foods should be rotated – there is no “best” or “perfect” food so switching brands will help to mitigate the shortcomings of feeding any one brand for an extended period of time, feeding a variety of foods helps to foster a strong and diverse population of microorganisms in the gut and by having several “go to” foods you’ll be able to make a quick switch in the event of a recall or formula change. Some also believe that rotating foods helps to decrease the risk of the dog developing a sensitivity to a particular ingredient later in life.

Initially, you may need to gradually transition your pup when switching brands. You would do this by feeding 25% new/75% old for a few days, then moving to 50/50 for a few days, then 75/25 for a few days, then transitioning entirely to the new food. If your pup is experiencing loose stools during the transition a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin and/or probiotics may help. My two dogs were both started on a rotational feeding plan upon coming home at 8 weeks old and neither experienced any digestive upset – but it does depend on the dog.

As far as which brands to feed, for the next four months or so I would recommend keeping him on a controlled calcium food. Any of the kibbles on my list would be comparable to Wellness CORE. I’m currently in the process of updating the list and by the end of this week or beginning of next week I should have a revised grain-free list, a grain-inclusive list and a raw list posted.

There really is no rhyme or reason to rotational feeding – everyone has their own method. I haven’t fed kibble quite a few years but for my last dog that ate kibble I got a new brand with a new protein source at the end of each bag and added a variety of canned food and/or fresh food “toppers” daily. When I got Gertie (currently two years old) I rotated between The Honest Kitchen’s (dehydrated) Love, Embark, Thrive and Zeal formulas and fed a different variety each day, I also mixed in a can of Tripett with her breakfast and gave her either a raw egg, a tin or sardines or plain yogurt at dinner. When she was 8 months old I switched her to a raw diet. Mabel (my one year old) transitioned to a raw diet as soon as she came home at 8 weeks. On their homemade raw diets my dogs get something completely different at each meal.

I would highly recommend adding “toppers” if you’re feeding kibble as the sole diet. Toppers will boost the “species-appropriateness” by adding some extra protein, moisture and providing your dog with some fresh, less processed food. Some people believe canned foods are unhealthy, however they’re actually much healthier than dry food – they’re less processed, higher in protein/lower in carbohydrates and have a high moisture content. The same applies to dehydrated foods and raw foods. If you’re adding a balanced canned, dehydrated or raw food you can top with as much as you want. “People food” is great too – any left over lean meat or veggies from your dinner, eggs, tinned sardines, plain yogurt, kefir and cottage cheese are all cheap and very healthy foods (just keep unbalanced extras such as these to 20% or less of the meal or you could risk throwing of the nutritional balance of the kibble).

Hope that helps! 🙂

[DellUSN]

Hello, Hound Dog Mom.

I’ve been searching around this site for a little while now and I’ve noticed your activity and knowledge about pet foods. I signed up so that I could attempt to contact you directly through private message, but I guess that’s not possible here. Either way, I’ve been reading a lot of your advice on here and I had a couple questions for you. I have a 4 month old Chocolate Lab (40 pounds) named Rooster who I just got a couple weeks ago. Having studied to become an Registered Vet Tech before I joined The Navy, I understood that importance of nutrition for large breed puppies, or any breed of puppy for that matter. After some research I decided to go with a 4 pound bag of Wellness CORE Puppy Formula. His transition over to the food went very smoothly and he’s been devouring it, so I bought him a 26 pound bag. I currently feed him 4 cups a day dry kibble (2 AM, 2 PM) and he’s doing well on the schedule. I read a post that you made about rotating dog’s brand of food and source of protein. I was curious if this was something that should be implemented at young age and some other brands you recommended for my pup. Also, I was very worried about my dog and people food because I’ve seen so many people just go nuts feeding there dogs junk food. He has not been exposed to any people food yet, but I’d like to get him on some raw meats and bones if possible. At what age would he be ready for that and what sorts of things would you recommend for him in that field? I really anticipate your reply and appreciate any input you offer. Thank you!

[Gemma60537]

I saw this the other day and wanted to wait to chime in…I have fed Canine Caviar for about two and a half years. I learned about it through my friend/breeder who is an acquaintance of the founder, which is Jeff Baker who was mentioned as a good source of info. We had three senior dogs very close in age who passed away as each one hit 13, so now with my 2 year old Lab and my 10 week old Lab puppy I am NEUROTIC about anything that hits their bodies. I believe strongly in my Canine Caviar.

They are a pretty small company, so they probably do not have vast numbers of customer service people to answer questions, but my friend/breeder who made me aware of this brand swears by it with all of her dogs…and she’s one of those breeders who LOVES her dogs and carefully does a litter once or twice a year. I don’t think there’s some awful cover up over at CC. I know they are extremely cautious with their product, so it seems way more likely to me to be a printer error versus an error in the recipe of the food.

Personally I feed the Chicken & Pearl Millet formula to my 10 week old pup just like I fed it to my 2 year old since it’s so similar to the large breed puppy formula. My breeder says she’s been feeding it to her pups for 10 years, before their large breed pup formula was available.

[londoncalling1996]

I am hoping to do the best for our new, 11 week old Bernese Mountain Dog pup, Lux. We had a Berner, Bailey, who died way too young (3-1/2) and it took us a long time to get over the loss and risk another one (and their relatively short life expectancy) joining our family. We are hoping Lux will live a good long life, well past her predicted expectancy. So, here I am! I have been looking thru this wonderfully informative website, thank you, which is helping me, but also making my brain spin a bit! I have a couple questions, the first (I can’t seem to find anywhere here) is about the 4 and 5 star foods. What is the difference? Digestive aid, is this only if my dog develops a problem, like throwing up, or would it be beneficial for life? Also, toppers, like the green tripe, is that something I should give our pup? The breeder was feeding her Ekanuba Large Breed Puppy so I bought a big bag of it. Doesn’t sound like it’s a good choice from what I’v read here. I heard at a pet store, they used to be a better dog food before being bought out by a big agro corp. (If that’s true). I’ve printed your list of recommended Large and Giant Breed Puppy foods and I will take that with me to buy Lux some new food tomorrow. Anyhow, Hound Dog Mom, thanks for all your hard work and puppy love! Cheers, Jules

[dogmom]

Hi HDM – do you mean adding the Tripett to the Orijin LBP food? Or would it be better to use half of the Orijin and half of another kibble with less calcium? I was reading the Orijin packaging, and was thinking that while I really like the food for my pup, that I would want to mix it with something….maybe the Acana Chicken & Burbank. I have a friend with GSD pups, and she feeds hers the Acana C&B and thinks it’s great for them. I worry about it because it’s not a puppy food, but it is an all-life-stage food….

Your thoughts on that?

Thanks so much!

[Hershy]

Thank you, HDM!
All was very helpful – I really appreciate your feedback on the dog foods, and also, the calculations for figuring the grams per 1000Kcal. I couldn’t get my head around it, but now I’m back, thanks to your detailed lesson. : ). I’ll keep reading. So many very interesting and helpful posts. I’m sure I’ll be back with other questions, too, particularly regarding the raw food diet. I was feeding my 4 big dogs a raw diet before Charlotte was bred. Also giving them a daily vitamin supplement tablet (which was most likely not the best form of those vitamins and minerals…and maybe I didn’t even need it) I have a lot to learn about it, but I’m thinking that what they were getting was WAY better than the processed foods available. I stopped at the time of pregnancy due to lack of confidence for what gestating pups should get, as well as the lack of time to prepare it. My dogs ate as well as we did at that time. I had fun shopping for bargains – only buying proteins I could find for less than $1/lb. I was surprised at how often those were available so I could stock up : ). But that is another topic and another forum… so finding the best kibble I can is very important to me for my guy and gals.

Thanks, again-

[alanysrayne]

Oh okay thanks !!!! I am getting a female english mastiff I believe today and they are feeding her science diet puppy for large breeds and I hear that isn’t very good. So I was looking for a better food for her.and I’m limited to the foods they offer at my petco but I know they offer welness core.

[Hershy]

Hello, Hound Dog Mom and all,

I am new to this site and forum, but have to admit, I have been a “fly on the wall” for a couple weeks or so. I first want to say how sorry I am about the loss of your best friend, HDM. So very tuff! I pray you will find comfort soon.
I raise labrador pups, one litter per year, and am keeping one of the pups from the litter our Charlotte just whelped. The “right” dog food has been an ongoing dilemma for me, always attempting to find the best food for my money. But the quality of the food is #1 for me. We have 4 adult labs, and now one pup. Mom was on Royal Canin Maxi Starter during most of her pregnancy and through weening. Pups were transitioned to RC Labrador Retriever Puppy 33. Then I began to study your website, reading the different reviews. I found the “starter” food to be a 4 star food, but the “33” was only a 3 star food. I don’t want to feed my pup anything less than a 4 star food. But price is definitely something we are forced to consider.
I’m not super clear on how to find the calcium % on the foods. And many say “minimum” so how do I know what it actually is. (I have to say the way you calculate is a little confusing to me, so I need to know just which dog food to use. : )
I have been feeding my big dogs Victor (a 5 star food), but for pup, I would like to find a 5 star food that is affordable for me, but may have to settle for a 4 star, which is still a good food, I’m assuming.
I was recently told about Cosco’s brand Kirkland Signature, which is on you Puppy food list of approved foods. (it is a 4 star food) I am a little confused about which to feed my puppy, since only one puppy food is listed and it has a minimum 1.2 % calcium, so not sure what it REALLY is. The link for the different foods they sell is: http://www.epinions.com/review/Kirkland_Signature_Super_Premium_Puppy_Food_40_lb_bag_epi/content_540777811588?sb=1
If you have time, would you look at the different foods (links toward the bottom of page for other foods) and tell me which would be best to feed my pup. I would appreciate your feedback. This food is very reasonably priced. Thank you

[SheSaid]

I guess I was not clear.. puppy has been salvaged..he is eating and drinking and NOT in danger anymore. He was when I got him. He WAS… on deaths door and no way to get him to the vets, but is now within 48 hours up, and in fact just within the last few hours wanting to play. The mention of his bowels was to only let you know that his kidneys are working and his bowels are working, and that I know for certain it is not diarrhea.. it is the adjustment to regular food and hydration. This is not my first time around the park with starving animals, as I have been taking animals in for 15 years or so. This is why this puppy got dropped off at my door. I have to say, I have NEVER lost a dog to death except old age, not once. I needed quick advice on what now.. that he is eating . I needed brands of food for a large breed puppy to give it the nutrition it needs to regain muscle and grow healthy bones… I have had big dogs before, just never one this big. He is the biggest puppy I have ever had in my care. I feed my dogs all home made food. Chicken, rice, veggies.. but I know that the danes grow fast and furious and need the right nutrition and especially this one, having had such a horrible beginning. I know that if he does not get the nutrition he needs he can have problems with his bones and joints, more so than other smaller breed dogs. I needed to know what to feed him, his breed, until I get my research done.. on how to prepare his meals from scratch. I am sorry my first message was not clear. I can see all very well intentioned people here who love animals… but I still need the info I first requested. What brands of food are recommended that are safe and nutritionally sound for his breed..and his age. Thank you all for caring.

[SheSaid]

I have just come into possession of a great dane puppy that is approximately 10 weeks old and has been starved almost to death. I have been giving it baby food and pedialight and it has begun to eat a little wet and dry pet food. It also ate some cooked chicken. I need to know now..what I need to feed this puppy to start getting it healthy. I am going to research it on my own but I have the puppy now and need advice now. It is sleeping a lot too.. is that normal. We are in a very remote area and will be getting it to the vet as soon as we can. It seems to be healthy.. hair and skin look good. Eyes look good and is eliminating ..although runny. I assume that is from being fed now. It is not diarrhea.. as it is controlled on the puppies part. Goes when it needs to not all the time.. I think it was taken away from mom too soon and someone threw it outside in a back yard with dry food and was not watching to see if it was eating..which it must not have been. It was brought to me as I have brought animals back from the brink many times…but never one so young and this breed. Please.. just give me specific info on what to feed it now.. brands of food, or raw… liver… milk.. evap milk, or goats milk.. thank you..

[michaelgnocchi81]

Thank you pattyvaughn for the response! One thing I’m going to have to do is train myself to not over feed her. I know they can easily put on weight because their so small and of course can lead to their back problems. I’m nervous but excited as she’ll be my first dog and I just want the best for her 🙂

Do you recommend any food I can give her during clicker training? Something that won’t put weight on her?

[theBCnut]

My piece of advice is not about what you feed but how much. As a vet tech for many years, the most common reason we saw for having a dachshund put down was overfeeding. Please, please, please, always keep your dachshund light and athletic. Thin and strong will keep her back in good shape. Consider finding a book on yoga for dogs and training her to do yoga moves for core muscle strength. You are in for so much fun!! Congrats on the new puppy!!

[Newfs]

Hi,
once again would like to ask for help in choosing food for my 3.5 month Newfoundland from food available in Poland: Fromm Gold http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold or Husse http://www.husse.co.uk/dog-food-products/dry-food-for-dogs/?product=110 or Enova http://www.enovapetfood.com/photoVideoGallery.aspx?cid=4680&mid=18452 or
Enova ADULT Breeders BAG GRAIN-FREE SIMPLE!
Complete food without cereal with fresh chicken meat. It can be administered to dogs from 2 months to 7 years old.
food without grains
addition of fresh chicken meat (min. 20%)
contains glucosamine and chondroitin supplement
Ingredients: dried chicken meat (min. 23.3%), fresh chicken meat (min. 20%), potato flour, dried green peas, chicken fat, dried beet pulp, flaxseed, dried egg protein hydrolyzate, dried yeast, fish oil, dried carrots, dried tomato puree, dried seaweed, sodium chloride, glucosamine, chondroitin.
Analytical constituents: crude protein – 31.5%, oils and fats – 19.5%, crude fiber – 3,5%, crude ash – 6,5%, calcium – 1.25%, phosphorus – 0.95% , moisture – 10.0%.
Extras: antioxidants. Dietary supplements in 1 kg of feed: Vitamin A – 15,000 IU Vitamin D3 – 1200 IU Vitamin E – 150 mg Copper (as copper sulphate pentahydrate) – 10 mg.
Analysis
protein: 31.5%
fat: 19.5%
Crude fiber 3.5%
ash 6.5%
humidity 10.0%
omega – 6 2.7%
Chondroitin 250 mg / kg
calcium 1.25%
phosphorus 1.0% – 0.95%
copper 10 mg / kg
selenium 0.2 mg / kg
iodine 2 mg / kg
Vitamin A 15,000 IU / kg
Vitamin D3 1200 IU / kg
Vitamin E 150 IU / kg
Niacin 135 mg / kg
I know that these food contain corn, but such are available in Poland as normal, not a cosmic price :/
Greetings

[jange123]

Hi,

New to the forum… Thank you in advance for your input.

I will be getting my GSP puppy in a few weeks and have been looking extensively into the food I will be feeding him. As you all know there are hundreds of makes out there. I am going with a dry kibble and from time to time will reward him with some fresh raw meat. My goal here is to get your opinion on what dry food to choose.

I have read into this site quite a bit and see how a ”meal” based food is favored over a “meat”. However I have read the opposite on other sites. The explanation on this site seems to add up but figured I’d check with you. The pet stores around where I live carry mostly 1-3 star foods and a handful of 4-5 stars. I’m not too concerned about price but also know paying a lot doesn’t necessarily guarantee a good and balanced food.

For a pup that will be very active, does any one have experience with a GSP or suggestions?

Thanks again.

Jeff

[Hound Dog Mom]

There’s no scientific basis for not feeding a grain-free food to a large breed puppy – just old wives tales. My last two hounds were weaned onto grain-free with no issues. But if you really don’t want to feed a grain-free food I believe Fromm and Nature’s Variety have some appropriate formulas. I know Innova Large Breed Puppy was good but that was recently recalled. I’m working on compiling a list of appropriate grain-inclusive foods because some people don’t want to feed grain-free.

[Boerboel Daddy]

Hi

I’m not sure if you have answered a similar question before as i haven’t read through the entire thread.. but here it goes

I have a 2,5 yr old Boerboel ( South African Breed similar to a English Mastiff) who has just mated a week ago. I am currently feeding Eathborn Primitive natural (2.4% Calcium). I will natural feed the pups one of the other Eathborn Foods you have already recommended due to the lower calcium content… (thanks for that info by the way)
.Other articles I’ve read warned against feeding too high levels of calcium to pregnant dogs and recommend switching to a puppy food of a quality dog food. (it had something to do with the contraction of the Uterus)

Finally the Question…: can I keep her on Earthborn Primitive natural (2.4% calcium) or should I switch to another Earthborn product (1.2 – 1.3% calcium) until after she has given birth and continue with primitive natural then?
also if I give her a calcium ascorbate supplement, does this affect the amount of calcium in the diet?

Any advice give will be appreciated, My girl Jordan and I thank you in advance

[beagleowner]

Well I was going crazy trying to find a food for my beagle. I fed him Beneful when he was a puppy and he loved it but it put on lots of weight. Have tried Hills Prescription for digestive problems from my vet, and then Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul, then Natures Variety Chicken flavor. None really agreed and he didn’t lose weight. Had trouble with his anal gland, ears and teeth were so dark but by this time he was 14 yrs old and altho he had his teeth cleaned once, his age was prohibited this time. He also had lipomas. Well after much investigation and discussing options on these forums, I arrived at the solution. I am now making homemade food for him, feeding him ground turkey and rotating with 85/15 hamburg, vegetables, eggs, pumpkin, and soup/marrow bones for snacks. I am happy to say he is losing weight, takes glucosamine and herbs for the lipomas. No more anal problems, ear problems, and his teeth are all white. He loves his bones and when they are all clean we fill and freeze them with pumpkin. It is no more expensive than kibble but I do admit it is a lot of work, but the results are worth it. My 14 year old best friend looks great. The lipomas are getting smaller as well.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I’ve been feeding raw for a few years so I have a good feel for balancing – I know what foods contain which nutrients, how much bone to feed, how much organ meat, which types of fats to add, etc. I started off using recipe books, but for the most part I now formulate my own menus. A lot of it is just variety. Each meal doesn’t have to be balanced but if you feed a variety of healthy and species-appropriate foods the nutrients should balance over time. Just like with people – each meal we eat isn’t completely balanced but we eat a variety of foods. I actually have several of my menus posted under the “Recommended Raw Food Menus” topic on the raw thread if you want to check them out. Towards the end I actually have a couple that I ran a full nutrient analysis on – just for kicks – and they conform to the AAFCO nutrient profile for all life stages.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbam –

Glad he’s enjoying his food with the canned!

Raw can be done cheaply or it can be done very expensively. I’ve gotten VERY savvy at cutting costs over the years and am now feeding all three of my hounds for ~$350 per month (not too shabby when you consider I’m going through around 200 lbs. of meat a month + fruits/veggies and other extras like eggs and kefir + supplements). Homemade is MUCH cheaper – I get all my meat from a wholesale supplier that supplies local restaurants and grocery stores (truck come right to my house, I order ~300 lbs. per shipment) and I order my supplements from Swanson’s (low cost human supplements).

[theBCnut]

Hi Sully’s Mom

A year ago, I wasn’t rotating foods either. I had a dog with a sensitive stomach and changing foods always upset everything with her. I had another that was super picky, only eating about every third meal. When I started rotating, I started by adding canned or fresh toppers, just 20% or less of each meal. I would use the same topper for a few days then change it. That got my picky dog eating some better and it got my sensitive dog read for a food change. It always took a month to change foods completely with the sensitive dog, but I committed to doing it. As soon as I got her used to one food, I started the transition to the next. It took about 3 transitions before I realized that she could transition faster without stomach upset, so I started transitioning every 2 weeks. Now she gets a different food every meal, and I also feed some raw with never an upset stomach. And my picky dog is excited to eat, never misses a meal, and always licks his bowl clean. So when I say I had a dog with a sensitive stomach and I had a picky dog, it’s because they aren’t either of those things anymore. I have four different kibbles open at any given time, but with 3 athletic dogs I go through them pretty fast. And I feed a wide variety of raw proteins.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

To get an avatar go to gravatar(dot)com.

Many people have different methods of rotational feeding. Some switch foods a few times a year, some switch after every bag, some have multiple foods at one time and switch with every meal and others stick with the same food and only rotate toppers (I personally don’t feel the rotating toppers only is the best method).

When I used to feed kibble I got a new brand with a different protein source after each bag and I always had a variety of canned and fresh food toppers on hand and rotated toppers daily. So for example my dog would get a lamb based kibble made by Brand X and after that bag was gone I’d get a chicken based kibble from Brand Y, etc. – all the while rotating canned toppers daily. Now that my dogs eat a homemade raw diet I’m able to feed them something completely different at each meal.

You really can rotate as often as you want – there’s no such thing as too much variety. Get a rotation plan going that works works for you and your dog. You could mix the trial bags you got in with the kibble you’re currently feeding or few a few meals of only the trial food until the bag is gone. Initially you may need to so slow transitions to get your dog accustomed to variety, however after a few switches you should be able to go from food to food without doing a gradual transition. I generally recommend, at the very least, having three go to foods (preferably from different manufacturers and with different protein sources).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.

First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.

I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.

Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[weimlove]

Pugmomsandy,
I have thought about using a pre mix but it would be a lot cheaper to just make my own. What I’ll probably do I just use a crock pot and slow cook the ingredients.

Hdm-
Ok great, I’ll probably use the egg shells. If I am using liquid vitamin e an it had a dropper in it, how many drops per pound of food? I will also be feeding fish every now and then. I’ll be adding a weekly variety of chicken beef turkey and fish plus a variety of fruit and veggies. Anything that I’m missing? I’ve made a small batch of beef with veggies and I’ve been putting a bit on his kibble. He loves it! Although I’m feeding a high quality kibble I would feel more comfortable feeding home cooked. I’m also getting a vizsla puppy in a week. Is it on to start her on home cooked and not even start kibble?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

This is a wonderful point to bring up! I’ll try to explain it as best I can.

The two main nutritional risks to large breed puppies are excess calcium consumption (or an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and excess energy consumption (too many calories leading to rapid weight gain).

The reason most formulas targeted towards large breed puppies and recommended for large breed puppies tend to be lower in fat has to do with the excess energy consumption risk factor. Protein and carbohydrates both have approximately 4 kcal. per gram while fat has over twice this much at about 9 kcal. per gram. So as you can see, fat is much more calorically dense than protein or carbohydrates and, as a result, foods that are higher in fat tend to be more calorically-dense as well. It is easier for a puppy (or any dog) to consume too much energy (calories) when eating a more calorically-dense food and this would ultimately result in undesired weight gain and, as we know, undesired weight gain in large and giant breed puppies can contribute to the development of orthopedic disease. This is why when feeding a more calorically-dense, or as some would say “rich”, food it is necessary to strictly control portions.

As you can see fat – per se – is not a risk factor for developmental orthopedic disease, excess calories are. It’s very possible to feed a puppy (or any dog) a food that is higher and fat and not have the dog gain unwanted pounds – this is done through portion control. So if, for example, a puppy is eating a food with 20% fat that has 500 kcal. per cup the puppy will obviously need less of this food (to compensate for the high caloric-density) than of a food with 12% fat and 350 kcal. per cup.

All of my puppies have eaten higher fat foods. Gertie ate a combination of The Honest Kitchen and grain-free canned foods until she was 8 months old with fat levels in excess of 20%. Mabel ate a homemade raw diet from the time she came home at 8 weeks with fat levels in the 30% – 40% range. I keep track of the calories my dogs are consuming, so my pups are fed the amount of calories that keeps them in optimal body condition. This means that when eating fattier more calorie-dense meals they get a smaller portion than when they’re eating leaner less calorie-dense meals.

In summary, it’s not the fat that contributes to developmental orthopedic disease it’s the excess calories that fat provides. As long as portion sizes are monitored and the pup isn’t allowed to gain weight too quickly fat levels won’t pose an issue.

I hope that helps clear things up!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Saireah]

* InkedMarie:
Yes! Dog Food Chat – I’m “Grey.” 🙂

* Sully’s Mom:
I really just used the sample bags as a treat. I opened them up to see their reaction and fed them a small handful. The reaction between Dr. Tim’s and Earthborn was noticeable, though, and the sample from Dr. Tim’s was larger (5lbs). Earthborn were just little bags (but they did have coupons on each one!). What’s lovely about Earthborn is that they have the UPC for Trees program (see their web site). When I was originally considering Earthborn, I LOVED that idea. I still may feed Costal Catch if I decide to rotate as I’m thinking about, though. Another thing that turned me off a bit about Earthborn is the ash level – it’s a bit higher than Dr. Tim’s. Now, mind you, it’s not as if it automatically makes it a bad food – the pea protein and the ash are just factors that Dr. Tim’s was lower on or didn’t have and that’s how I made my decision between specifically selecting between both of them. Also, something funny — some people mentioned that Dr. Tim’s smells like roasted chicken, but I think it smells like the Iowa State Fair barnyard. 😉 Dr. Tim originally suggested Pursuit for my dog (the one with hip dysplasia), too – because the extra fatty acids in Pursuit would help (per his quote). However, I circled back with him half a year later and he did say that grain-free would suit perfectly fine now that she’s in better health in terms of her joints.

Kinesis GF has 32% protein, 18% fat,1.51% calcium, 415 cal/cup, and 6.9% ash.
Pursuit is grain inclusive and has 30% protein, 1.06% calcium, 20% fat, 450 cal/cup, and 6.5% ash.

They’re both a mainly chicken-based food, with Pursuit being more calories. However, the plus-side with grain-free is that you can feed less. Compare the feeding suggestions. Right there, I’d say that grain-free (in my personal opinion) is superior because 1) it’s grain-free, yay!, 2) you’re going to feed less, 3) they’ll produce less waste because of this, and 4) Kinesis has higher protein. I’m not incredibly knowledgeable about specifics of ingredients, but this is why I chose the grain-free line over the grain inclusive line. GF Kinesis looks to be roughly $5 more per 30lb bag than Pursuit, too – and Dr. Tim mentioned they are considering a 44lb bag of GF Kinesis (grain inclusive Kinesis has this option available) in the future.

I’m thinking that he might have mentioned Pursuit over the two specifically because your dog is fairly young and likely very active – so he was thinking he’d do quite well on Pursuit. By no means are either a “bad” food to choose – remember, there’s several dogs out there eating low quality food every day. My mother fed our family dogs a food that is a 2 star food for his entire life and he lived to be 12. I know we’re trying to do our best with what they food them, but no matter what – by choosing a 4 star or 5 star food – we are making a better choice.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet but I am currently in school working toward it – so hopefully in a few years.

I don’t believe there is a thread on the forums dedicated to the arsenic and rice issue but you could certainly start a thread if you want input from other posters. I really haven’t researched the issue much as neither myself or my dogs eat much rice aside from germinated rice a few times a month. However, I feel that as long as you’re rotating rice-inclusive foods with rice-free foods it probably wouldn’t be a big issue. Dr. Mike does have an article about arsenic in rice over on the review site.

I’ve fed both Nature’s Variety Instinct and Nutrisca and feel they’re both good foods. When I used to feed kibble Instinct was a staple in my dog’s rotation – it’s a great food.

NaturalK9Supplies.com and K9Cuisine.com usually have a big selection of trial-sized bags and free samples. Also, companies will often mail you samples if you ask. As stated previously, I don’t feed kibble for meals any longer, I do still order samples frequently though. I like to try products with my own dogs so I can make better recommendations. I usually layer kibble and canned pumpkin and freeze it to give to my dogs as a treat.

My assumption as to why Dr. Tim would recommend Pursuit over GF Kinesis is the calcium levels – the calcium in the GF Kinesis is a bit high for a large breed puppy.

Hope that helps! 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Good Morning Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet – but I’m back in school working towards it so hopefully in a few years!

Dr. Mike has an article about the arsenic issue with rice: dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-news/arsenic-discovered-in-rice/ . Feel free to start your own thread if you would like to get others’ opinions. I really haven’t researched the issue too much as I don’t eat much rice myself and my dogs rarely get rice (or any grains) aside from germinated rice a few times a month.

I’m a big Nature’s Variety Instinct fan. When I used to feed kibble to my oldest dog it was frequently in rotation. I’ve used Nutrisca as well and feel it’s a good food. My dogs eat raw as their main diet (as mentioned) however I do frequently order samples and trial-sized bags of kibble. Even though I don’t feed kibble for meals I like to keep in the know about the best brands so I can make good recommendations. For my dogs, they usually get kibble in a kong for an after dinner treat (I layer kibble and canned pumpkin and pop it in the freezer). Naturalk9supplies.com and k9cuisine.com usually offer a wide variety of free samples and sell small trial-sized bags. Also, most companies will send you samples if you call or email them and ask.

It’s possible that Dr. Tim could be recommending Pursuit over the Grain-Free Kinesis due to calcium levels. The calcium levels in the Grain-Free Kinesis formula are a bit high for a large breed puppy. Honestly, if you’re rotating through a variety of foods that do and do not contain rice I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the arsenic. I just wouldn’t feed a food with rice long term. I also feel Dr. Tim’s is a very trustworthy company so if they’re saying that their rice tests negative for high levels of arsenic I would tend to believe them (although I would still rotate brands).

[Hound Dog Mom]

Saireah – I actually haven’t fed kibble (as a meal) in nearly three years. However, when I did feed kibble I switched to a new brand with a new protein source at the end of every bag and I rotated canned and fresh food toppers daily. Once your dog gets used to switching foods you shouldn’t need to transition gradually, you can just do it cold turkey.

Sully’s Mom – Yes – high levels of protein (preferably animal-based protein) is a very good things as dogs have a strong carnivorous bias and are designed to eat a primarily meat-based diet. When I fed kibble I never fed foods with less than 30% protein. My dogs now eat a raw diet with protein levels ranging between 45% and 55% at each meal.

[Saireah]

Starbright:

My Quinn (lab/vizsla) was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at 1 year old. I switched her food to grain-free after discovering that, along with a higher protein. She needed to build muscle as she was favoring one side. She has hip dysplasia in both hips.

In terms of supplements, I can tell you what we’ve done that has made a phenomenal difference. She just turned two and there’s no way in the world I’d have thought she would be at this point. We were pretty certain she was going to need surgery (her range of motion was OK — but we just thought surgery would be more immediate than in the distant future).

As HDM suggests, a great diet with anti-inflammatory supplements was suggested to us by Iowa State University. Since being recommended, we’ve had her on Nutramax Cosequin DS Double-Strength Chewable Tablets. According to Iowa State, this is the only brand to be clinically proven. You will give her two a day for a month and one a day from then on (directions are on the bottle). Coupled with this, we also immediately started her on one tablet of fish oil per day — 1,000MG (but you may have to feed less/more — consult vet).

The diet change and supplements helped, but targeted exercise has made the difference, as well. Take your dog swimming. If she doesn’t like to swim, teach her to love it by way of rewards/playing. Swimming is the best for joint issues. Other options provided to us were walking in tall grass (makes her lift her legs all the way as opposed to close together/hopping), walking on a blown up air mattress (good for winter exercise), and frequent walks (as opposed to a long walk — more frequent is better).

Also — obviously weight. She’s a slim 43 pounds at the moment, but she did get to 50 pounds in the winter and my vet noticed it. Slim is always, always better — and I’ve had people say she’s too thin (mostly because I don’t think most people are accustomed to seeing healthy dogs — harsh, but true… I think a lot of dogs are overweight).

If you have any questions, let me know. I really enjoy talking about this subject because I couldn’t find enough information when this happened to us. It’s our personal experience, but Quinn is now running full-speed and playing for hours and hours daily. A definite turnaround.

Good luck. 🙂

[starbright26]

Thanks for the reply.. I appreciate the advice on suppliments but I really dont thing her losing weight is my main concern.. I’m looking more for giudance on a longterm food to feed her that would benefit her joints and help cease the progression of the hip dysplasia if possible. Has anyone else been down this road before? Are suppliments more important or does the food made a larger impact.. Is grain free best for this situation? Being that she is over a year now, do the calcium levels still play a role? Sorry, Ive just been researching and reading all these posts which is only confusing me further.. Please help if you can… Thanks 🙂

[InkedMarie]

Starbright,
Thank you for adopting your girl. I hope she continues to blossom. My go-to food when a dog needs to lose weight is Wellness Core reduced fat, feeding her the amount of food for what she *should* weigh. A good joint supplement is needed; I use Joint Mobility plus from Swanson Vitamins. It’s human, fine for dogs. Also, salmon oil. I prefer just salmon oil, nothing else; I get mine from Vital Choice,

Good luck!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi EHubbman –

Yes the calcium to phosphorus ratio is very important for all dogs and should be no less than 1:1 and no more than 2:1, with around 1.2:1 being considered ideal. However when it comes to large and giant breed puppies, the overall amount of calcium consumed is still very important. Even if a food had an appropriate ratio but the calcium levels were very high – say 2.2% calcium and 2% phosphorus (1.1:1) – I wouldn’t feel comfortable feeding the food to a large or giant breed puppy. All three of my dogs eat a raw diet and my most recent pup (now 11 months old) was weaned onto raw at 8 weeks old. To keep the calcium levels controlled while still keeping the calcium to phosphorus ratio balanced, fed her green tripe for around 25% of her diet. Green tripe has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (roughly 1:1) but has very low levels of each mineral (only about 0.3%).

[stitchwitch]

I have a 5.5m old shiloh shepherd. I switched her from the breeder’s food, taste of the wild, to fromm’s large breed puppy – seemingly no problems – she was on it for approx. 2 months. About 3 weeks ago I started feeding her 1 meal a day of raw – which was my plan from the start (and I know not to mix the two in the same meal). Over the past 3 weeks, perhaps a coincidence, she is vomiting frequently – but only after eating the kibble.

The first time she did it, it was a few hours after eating – I thought perhaps she wasn’t feeling good or had had too much excitement. Since then, it has happened a few times a week – usually right after eating the kibble.

If she vomits up her kibble meal (like she did at lunch today) and I give her raw for the meal – no problems.

It is almost as if, once her body experienced the raw, it doesn’t “like” the kibble. Could that be possible? Could it be that the problem is this specific kibble (fromm’s) and I should try another?

I would prefer to keep her on a partial kibble diet, not only because of the cost, but because there will be times she must be boarded and I’m not sure the kennel would be willing to handle a raw diet.

Suggestions? Advice?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Betsy –

I do enjoy the great dane lady’s website and think there is some good information on there, however I don’t agree with her feeding advice for puppies. If her aversion to grain-free and raw foods for large breed puppies was based on some sort of factual research or organized feeding trial I would have more respect for it, but it seems to me it’s solely based on the fact that she’s never tried feeding those foods to her puppies?? I’ve had great lucking feeding high protein grain-free foods to my bloodhound puppies, I’ve just kept calcium levels controlled for the first 8 months.