[texasniteowl]

Short story: we’ve been on chicken and rice for a month and need to get back on a kibble.

You can skip to near the bottom about what kibble to go with or you can read…the long story.

Long story:

My dog Wilson is about 7 and 1/2. We have had him for about 19 months. He came to us on Purina lamb and rice. I first switched him to Fromm’s Duck and Sweet Potato and then later to Fromm’s grain free Salmon Tunalini. He also with every meal got a tbsp of yogurt, usually Fage Greek Plain but sometimes other brands. He was on the Salmon Tunalini for about 7 or 8 months.

In late April, he started eating a lot more grass than usual. Prior, he ate grass maybe once every 2 or 3 months. But he started going out in the a.m. (mostly a.m.) to eat grass about 4 times a week. But no other symptoms really presented. At first.

By mid to late May he was still grass eating but poo had started changing and not for the better. But we would have days were it was fine and then days where it was bad and then days when it was fine again. He still ate his food and still loved his walks, etc. But we also did have a few days where his interest in his food in the morning was not present. Then finally, after seeing some blood in his poo, we went to the vet.

Fecal test #1 was negative for parasites/giardia. Fecal test #2 showed a bacterial overgrowth of the bad, rod shaped bacteria. So vet put us on a 5 day course of amoxicillin, metronidazole, and pro-pectalin. We stayed on his kibble during this course. Finished the 5 days and on day 6, we had not only very liquid, essentially water, diarrhea, we also had vomiting. Called the vet…another 5 days of amox, metro, pro-pec. This time, went to chicken and rice.

The chicken and rice was meant to be short term!

After the 2nd 5 days, we kept on the chicken and rice and waited to see what would happen. It initially seemed like his poo started to improve. So I started mixing in a little kibble. Like less than 1/2 of 1/4 cup.

And things got worse again. So called the vet again.

The vet suggested that in spite of the parasite fecal being negative that we do a dose of panacur. And that if no improvement, our next step would be to take blood and fecal samples and send them to the vet school at Texas A&M to be evaluated. So we did the Panacur.

At first, didn’t see much improvement. But then about 4-5 days after his last dose his poo started to improve. Still on the soft side. And worryingly, a bit orange even though he wasn’t getting pumpkin. But firmer than we had seen in a while.

So, I went by a local boutique pet store who gave me a sample of Orijen Adult and I started mixing in some. Just a little.

And the poo got even better.

Nearly normal! Using the Purina fecal scoring model, we’re up to a 3 where 2 is ideal. We had been averaging a 4.5-5 at one point with some individual poos even worse!

So, I want to slowly increase the amount of kibble. And at some point, I plan to re-introduce probiotics (maybe powder instead of yogurt) and maybe add enzymes.

(I also bought the $3 book about supplementing kibble with fresh stuff…and would like to do that…eventually. First things first.)

Anyway, props to anyone who made it thru all that.

The main question:
Which kibble to go with for now?

A friend of mine who has a dog with severe IBD suggested that maybe a food intolerance started the whole cycle to start with, but I don’t know that I buy that. She suggested a novel protein. But, he’s been on chicken and rice, and the Orijen Adult is chicken based and his poo is improving right now. Is it possible he has a food intolerance of some kind? Sure. Allergies? Yes. In fact, he seems to have a grass allergy. Since I know he has had chicken and duck and lamb and fish, if we start looking at a novel protein, I’d be looking at pork or venison or rabbit. But I don’t know what else he might have had before we adopted him. And in terms of amount paw-licking, etc. I don’t think it is much different than any other time. He can get itchy ears too, but the vet attributes that to mostly seasonal allergies.

The qualm I have about the Orijen Adult is mainly due to the high fat content. 18%. We are mostly inactive. He is a lap dog most of the day except for our daily 1.1 to 1.2 mile walks. And a little bit of fetch with a tennis ball. But otherwise he loves nothing more than snuggling in my lap in the recliner. And he is 65lbs! And, as mentioned he is 7 and 1/2. Should I start watching the fat %? Though his weight last time we were at the vet was within 3 lbs of what they called ideal. So we are doing pretty good so far.

Then there is the matter of grain free vs. grain inclusive. In the best scenario, I prefer grain free. But I’m not sure I’m crazy about all of them going to lentils for fill. Though, the Orijen Adult has lentils and I have not seen a problem so far. But it has only been about 4-5 days and he is getting a limited amount.

I do like that the Orijen Adult is a higher protein level. His previous food was only 31% protein and the Orijen Adult is 42%. Maybe it was the fact that he has been on chicken and rice for a month that made the higher protein level an easier switch? It’s been proven now that a higher protein percent for senior dogs is OK, right?

Orijen Senior is similar to Adult except uses pea fiber also. The fat is 15% instead of 18%. And fiber is 8% instead of 5%.

Some other mostly chicken or at least poultry based foods I was considering are:
Taste of the Wild Wetlands
Wellness CORE Original
Wellness CORE Reduced Fat (37% protein, 11% fat)
Acana Adult Large Breed (37% protein, 14% fat)
Acana Light & Fit (39% protein, 10% fat)
Acana Senior (37% protein, 14% fat)
Earthborn Holistic Great Plains Feast
Merrick Grain Free Chicken & Sweet Potato

Anyway, I’m really at a loss here. Novel protein or not? Fat %? Protein %? Lentils? Other food suggestions?

[Kelsey K]

Also, any suggestions on supplements to start from the beginning? I know glucosamine/joint supplements are popular, as are Omega supplements. Any recommendations?

[DogFoodie]

And, I agree with Melissa. Raw might help also. Sometimes, higher carb foods contribute to the problem. If probably try a commercial raw that’s complete and balanced – not one that says it’s for supplemental feeding only.

[Richard M]

I have a Maltese cross breed. I clean his eyes daily with a topical pad which cleanes his eyes fine but has no real effect on the colouring.

I have had him on Orijen puppy and his coat is great, other than the tearing stains. He has gone off of Orijen and I know it is not a behavioural issue so thinking of switching to Pulsar.

Are there any other commercial foods that you would recommend to address the tearing stains? I won’t risk his health over cosmetic issues of course and am not too interested in any supplement that contains antibiotics.

[Debbie L]

I think I’d add a little more than just potatoes and peas. The apples and oatmeal sounds good. Perhaps some egg as well.

Many years ago my aging female Collie had a terrible time with fleas, as her immunity was down due to age. I started feeding Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover’s Soul and within about a month on that the fleas all but vanished. I looked at the ingredients, and unfortunately your dog may be allergic, but the oatmeal and another item listed were high in B vitamins and I believe that’s what helped to repel the fleas.

If you Google it there are many natural homemade dog food recipes on the net. You can supplement the dog’s diet with dog vitamins. To be safe I would if I were making my own dog food recipe.

Another suggestion would be to occasionally give the dog some probios paste, pronounced pro-bee-ose. Your farm and ranch store will know what it is. Very high in vitamins and minerals. Just takes a small bit at a time. Or sprinkle some powdered milk for baby animals on the food. Also at farm and ranch. High in vitamins, minerals and also calcium animals need.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Debbie L.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Debbie L.

[weezerweeks]

Should I get dasquin or Dasquin msm? Have used mercola and springtime. Love Mercola but their out of stock so I thought I’d rotate to another one. Thanks

[DogFoodie]

Katie, you’re doing a great job!

Commercial raw is expensive and can be out of reach for a lot of folks, myself included. Making homemade raw balanced, takes research and care and you’ve certainly demonstrated that you’re up for the challenge. In the meantime, you might want to check out Steve Brown’s great little download about supplementing a diet of kibble with fresh whole foods. The download costs $2.95 and is worth every penny! Here’s a link to the download: http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/home/sll/page_41/see_spot_live_longer_the_abc_way___electronic_down.html. Steve Brown’s book, Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, is probably one of the books you have on order.

Answer’s goat milk is great. My dogs love it too. You just reminded me to get a carton out of the freezer. My dogs are always getting something different, too.

Congratulations on the new job!!

[DogFoodie]

Hi Travis,

I couldn’t tell if you had already looked for a local retailer of Victor products or not. I live in the Chicago area, but my friend is in Texas and when I was looking for a local retailer for her I was shocked to see there were lots of them. Lots. Not to pester you, but do check and see if you might have a retailer near you. Click on the tab in the black bar at the top of this page that says, “find a dealer.” http://victordogfood.com/

Also, something you could consider would be supplementing your dog’s diet with raw, meaty bones as an introduction to raw food. Something as simple as a turkey neck in place of a meal of kibble. And, if you keep the extras to no more than 20% of your dog’s diet, you don’t have to worry about throwing off the nutritional balance of the kibble. I don’t feed raw full-time because of my schedule and it worries me far less when I know I’m feeding it less than 20% of the time. Here are the forum search results for “raw, meaty bones” or RMB’s as they’re called: /forums/search/raw+meaty+bones/

[Mom2Cavs]

I also want to add Wellness’s new Small Breed Senior to the mix. It’s formulated to have a lower sodium percentage. I’m feeding it in our regimen. I’m also using other Wellness Small Breed formulas. I have 3 senior Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. All 3 have some level of murmur. My 2 girls are not getting any meds, just supplemented with coq10. My male (my newest addition) has MVD and gets enalipril twice a day.

[Paula D]

FWIW, I don’t think three meals a day until he’s about six months is too many meals, and when I had a foster puppy, she would eat more,overall, on three instead of two meals a day, so if you’re wanting him to eat more, the “lunch” meal might help.

Unsolicited .02: try adding just one new supplement or food at a time, give it a couple of weeks, before trying something new, in order to give pup’s tummy a chance to settle and to more easily identify if something is bothering him. Alas, this is from bad experience of me being over-anxious about my foster puppy with “issues” when my adult girls were pretty easy keepers.

Good luck!

.paula d

[weezerweeks]

I need to try another joint supplement for my yorkie. He has grade 1 luxating petalla. I have used Mercola and springtime. I like the Mercola the best but they are out of stock. I like to rotate so I thought I would try Dasquin but which one the Dasquin or the Dasquin msm? Does anyone have any other suggestions. His legs aren’t bad now but sometimes he limps a little. Thanks

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Latis2270 –

Earthborn Coastal Catch has about 15% more calories than Wellness LBP so if his weight is good now I’d feed him about 15% less than what you’re currently feeding and adjust from there.

When the list was created Earthborn was rated 5 stars, the rating has dropped to 4.5 stars. I’m holding off on making any updates to the list because there are going to be some changes in the near future.

As far as I know, nothing has changed with the calcium levels.

For the soft stools you may want to try supplementing his diet with probiotics.

[DogFoodie]

Unfortunately, my dog with food intolerance issues reacted to Springtime’s Big Off Garlic or if be using that. I tried it and both of my ate it right up just thrown into their food. I used the granules. It’s know to help deter fleas, flies, mosquitoes, etc. Here’s a link to the product: http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

I had planned to use BOG with Mercola Natural Flea and Tick Defense: http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/natural-flea-and-tick-control/

Unfortunately, since BOG didn’t work for us, I resorted to more toxic methods and ended up with Sentinel, which does nothing to deter mosquitoes. I also have the Halo Herbal Dip that Sandy recommended to me last summer. Her little cutie s wear a few drops on a bandana.

[pugmomsandy]

I’ve been using Halo Herbal Dip (can be made into a spray) for the past two years and either feed Bug Off Garlic or Flea Free Supplement. There are also natural products out there with rose geranium it (like Sentry Natural Defense) or you can purchase rose geranium essential oil.

[InkedMarie]

Terri,
I’ve never heard not to feed fowl. I feed duck, turkey & chicken. If you’re looking to feed pre made raw, Primal has a bunch of proteins. I feed ground raw: lamb, goat, beef, turkey, duck, beef and that’s just what’s in my freezer. There are many others: bison, emu, rabbit, etc.
I disagree with Judy about the probiotics. Human grade is much better, human supplements are regulated, pets are not. Judy, I want to point out & I may be wrong but I believe if you are a veterinary professional & posting here, you are supposed to post under your real name.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Zach,

Sardines are awesome!

If you haven’t already checked out Steve Brown’s e-book, you should! The download costs $2.95 and is worth every penny. He explains how to add fresh whole foods, including sardines, to supplement and improve your dog’s diet. He refers to it as the ABC method. http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/home/sll/page_41/see_spot_live_longer_the_abc_way___electronic_down.html

Edit: I don’t use fish oil because I have a fish intolerant dog who can’t even have fish oil even though it should be OK because the protein has been removed. If I did use fish oil, I’d try Springtime Natural’s product. I’ve used Mercola krill and it didn’t seem to bother him. I have used Udo’s Choice DHA Blend, a vegeterian product for him.

[RescueDaneMom]

Hi Katie,

You may also want to check out reelrawdog.com. I recently discovered this company through InkedMarie (I think, correct me if I’m wrong). They have good deals on free shipping based on where you’re located and how much you buy. I would have to buy 50lbs for free shipping because I live in FL. They also have good prices on bulk ground products. They are already in the correct ratio of 80:10:10. Then you just add some veggies and supplements and you’re all set. That could get you started while you figure out the rest.

[Regina D]

Are these limited ingredient foods, like NB & Wellness, complete foods? Or do I need to add supplements if fed long-term?

[Katie J]

I’ll definitely pick up that book you’re suggesting this weekend. We’re planning a puppy outing at our local town center that has several pet friendly stores.

My little guys are pretty active. When they aren’t napping, it’s full on puppy mode for both of them! Plus we make trips about 5 times a week to where I board my horses, and spend several hours playing and exploring. I figure once the pup is full grown, we’ll be going through about a pound a day between the two of them. But I have no idea how big the pup will get. I could be underestimating. The co-op I plan to purchase from estimates about $1.50 a day to feed a 40 lb dog, and I think we will be under that weight between the two of them. I can get behind that! I am a little overwhelmed with their offerings as a lot of it is large portions. I’m not sure how to feed it all. I guess those books would answer that for me!

Next I want to look into supplements for their raw diet. I gather that they can have human multivitamins. The only draw back is that I have to make sure it’s safe for dogs and the mix may not be optimal, right? I know that Hound Dog Mom buys things separately. But I’ll admit her list of supplements confuses me quickly!

[Katie J]

Thanks guys! I was wanting to introduce all of the potential raw ingredients through his puppyhood before making the leap. I keep reading that making the switch to raw is a lot easier than it seems. But boy, it sure looks awfully complicated going through this thread!

In reference to SSLL, am I missing the serving size guide on the website? My iPad doesn’t zoom the bag picture correctly. I see that it’s highly recommended, but I want to see what it’ll actually cost me to feed.

$90 for a grinder is very reasonable. I hadn’t started looking yet, but I was thinking that would be quite the investment. I could supplement with grinds from another source and grind chicken in house. I am just looking to be as inexpensive as possible. I may not be factoring everything right, but it sounds like feeding raw could be cheaper than the kibble I have been experimenting with. We haven’t settled on a kibble that the pup loves. And my terrier has been taking a liking to wet food over his kibble.

I have a sample of Steve Brown’s book saved. I have been debating on purchasing as I wasn’t sure if I was ready for it yet. The other book sounds promising.

Maybe I’ll get some things from the co-op to try. Also I think I saw someone say that they buy from the grocery store. I work at an Aldi. Not sure if anyone is familiar with the store. We don’t have a butcher but have a decent selection of pork, beef and chicken prepackaged. Is that safe for dogs?

[pugmomsandy]

Katie J,

“Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” has a recipe modified for pups. It also includes a recipe for a vitamin/mineral supplement.

[USA]

Hi Cordell

You deserve to be praised for the time and effort you take to prepare your dog’s meals!

Personally I would not mix raw with cooked. I believe that over time a dog who eats only cooked foods will develop changes to his digestive system that will make it harder to deal with the bacteria in raw food. For senior dogs I think this problem could be even worse.

I would think about about adding digestive enzymes tor your dog’s diet to replace the ones that are lost during cooking. I would also read Steve Brown’s book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet”. While your homemade supplement looks wonderful, Steve’s book will help you make sure you are feeding your dog’s a diet that is perfectly balanced and nutritionally complete.

Keep up the good work!

[Katie J]

So I have went through this entire thread (skimmed a tiny bit) and couldn’t find my answer surprisingly enough. I have been toying with the idea of going raw for my new pup that I mentioned in the Editor’s Choice forum, but worry that I could screw him up if I get the balance off. The puppy stage is too important to screw up. I keep researching raw anyhow because I want to switch to raw eventually for him and my terrier mix. I even recently found a co-op that delivers close by.

My bug question, as I see most people are feeding medium – large dogs, is how I maintain balance for small dogs? My terrier is 15-20 lbs (just guessing but I can weigh him), and my pup is 8-9 lbs (he weighed 7 lbs about two weeks ago at the vet). For those who haven’t read the other thread, he’s almost a 4 months old Shiba Inu/Akita Inu that I purchased secondhand but was a pet store pup. Yes, he is very small for his age, and no, I have no idea how big he’ll be. He seems to be growing like a weed though! Anyhow to maintain the proper balance for the pup, would I have to rely mostly on grinds? I assume I can find a proper balance for my terrier without solely using grinds. I haven’t even looked into the cost of a grinder yet. If I were to use a premix like See Spot Live Longer, do I give these little guys 1 lb of boneless meat? Seems like an awful lot! And on the topic of supplements, I know a lot of puppy foods have added DHA. Would I want to add that in a puppy raw diet? I was also toying with the idea of placing an order with the co-op for a few things to try to add in to the current diet of kibble and wet my pup is getting to help him transition. Is it safe to use raw as a topper on kibble? Or should I feed raw as an exclusive meal?

Thank you for all of this information! I discovered this website about a week ago and have since made it my personal mission to find out how to give my dogs the best!

[Cordell N]

Hello,
I home cook for my three dogs. A 7 month old Australian Shepherd, a senior Boston Terrier and a senior Bassett Hound. I make their food in a crock pot twice a week.
I use a combination of meats which usually include chicken thighs or chicken quarters and ground beef and chicken gizzards. I also add ground lamb if I can find it in the discount area.
I throw in carrots, green beans and other vegetables from my garden like squash and tomatoes. If I have some fruit that needs to be eaten I throw that in also. I add some water and cook until done. I remove the everything and debone the chicken and mash with a potatoes masher and mix well. I then cook my carbs in the liquid. Sometimes rice, potatoes, lentils, oats or barley. I least that cook until very well done add a can of pumpkin and mix it all together. I would estimate that the meat comprises about 75% of their diet.

I add a supplement I make at feeding that includes ground egg shell, nutritional yeast, kelp powder, lecithin granules, ground multivitamins, salmon oil, yogurt, apple cider with the mother and Brazil nuts. I also put a cube or two of cooked beef liver or canned sardines on top a couple of times a week.
I would like to add some raw food and bones to their routine.
I bought the following at the Asian and Mexican markets.
Chicken and turkey necks
Pork neck bones
Beef feet cut up
Pork heart.
My questions are can I give a neck a couple of tomes a week as a treat?
Are raw pork neck bones and cut up raw beef feet safe as treats?
Should I cook the pork heart in the crock pot with my other meat or serve a small portion raw on top of their cooked food?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Cordell

[deca d]

What kind of products would help with my shih-tzu’s dry eye condition? She’s on medicated eye drops right now. I’m looking for alternative store medications, and maybe food supplements.

[pugmomsandy]

A fat supplement could be a tablespoon or two of olive oil or coconut oil or even fish oil or combo oils. Oils are fat and calories and have over 100 calories per tablespoon. A dry addition just to add overall calories could be Abady’s granular food. It has nearly 800 calories per cup so you could add in a couple tablespoons of that. A canned food high in fat is Nature’s Logic Lamb or Rabbit. They have more fat than protein hence the lower rating (not because it has lots of red colored ingredients). Hound & Gatos canned chicken and pork recipes are also high in fat (40% plus). You can also make some “satin balls” and send it to the trainer to feed.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by pugmomsandy.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Melinda M]

I am so thankful for the site and all the knowledge & advice that is shared. I have learned so much which in turn will help my 4-legged baby! However, I am in great need of advice. My 1 yr old yellow lab is off in duck hunting/retriever training school. She is in a very critical point in her training and is burning a great deal of calories. She is losing weight
(5 lbs). We are trying to help her gain weight by switching her food (which needed to be switched any ways) from ProPlan to Wellness Core Large Breed. However, I did not pay attention to the fat content of the Wellness and when the food reached the trainer He stated our Bella may lose weight on the Wellness due to its lower fat content 14% compared to the Proplan which has a 20% fat content. PLEASE HELP! do I complete choose a different dry food other than WELLNESS or do I add a canned food to her dry OR the vet even suggested a “fat supplement”. I have no idea what to use as a fat supplement. I need something that is pretty convenient for the trainer to feed since he has 18 dogs to feed. However, I want it to be healthy for my Bella but decently economical as well.
Thank you in advance for any knowledge/advice you can pass on to me.

[DogFoodie]

If I were doing an elimination diet, I wouldn’t add any supplements either.

[aquariangt]

Few things in this.

There are many studies showing that high protein causing kidney damage in dogs is a myth, and 30% isn’t terribly high either-it’s actually the number i shoot for at minimum, and i supplement with high protein canned and dehydrated on top of that. That shouldn’t be a concern for you, and lower in fat is more important for weight loss than lower protein.

However, I wouldn’t continue feeding blue. If you want to stay on a weight loss food (i’ve never personally used any) the two I see recommended the most on here are Wellness Core Weight Control, and Annamaet Lean. I’ve seen a few people use Natural Balance Fat Dog as well, but I won’t feed anything from that company either.

[Vianca V]

InkedMarie, thank you for your suggestion I had been considering the core reduced fat too. As for my rescue, initially he had been diagnosed with a fungus 2 years ago, in may my primary vet decided to put him in a more aggressive treatment in order to finish with his condition, unfortunately it really didnt go well his skin got even more agravated and he became slightly anorexic and lethargic. After a chat with a friend of mine who manufactures natural dog shampoo she suggested I visit her vet. Her vet who really impressed performed a uv light test, a Skin Scraping/Trichogram, and a Skin Cytology. He diagnosed him with staph a bacterial infection, Candida, and allergies. He prescrived Apoquel 5.4 mg, Ku Shen Si Wu, Dandruff Formula 0.5g Caps, Cefpodoxime 100mg, and a antibacterial antifungal shampoo and conditioner. He also like I mentioned put him on Royal Canin Hypoallegenic Small Breed 8.8 lbs, these are the ingredients :Brewer’s Rice, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Vegetable Oil, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Dried Beet Pulp, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Sulfate, Salt, Fish Oil, Fructooligosaccharides, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Taurine, Chlorine Chloride, DL-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (source Of Vitamin E), Inositol, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source Of Vitamin C), D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Marigold Extract (Tagetes Erecta L), Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Magnanous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite And Rosemary Extract, Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid. Wold love any suggestions

[InkedMarie]

Hi Vianca,
I’m sorry for the loss of Fluffy. I agree that most vets don’t know much about nutrition. For your dog who needs to lose weight, I had great success with Wellness Core reduced fat. I haven’t tried Annamaet Lean but others have with good luck.
For the dog with allergies, we need more information. What are the symptoms the dog has? Please post the ingredients to the dog good he eats. What other food products does he eat: treats, supplements, anything.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Janet-
What a bummer! I know what you are going through. Have you been using any supplements at all? Such as digestive enzymes or probiotics? Take a look at the website dogaware.com. It has a great section on digestive health and disorders. They have terrific advise in my opinion. They talk about diarrhea, IBS, IBD, leaky gut and all that fun stuff. Lol! I’ve used some of the recommended supplements with success. Some of them are holistic, so you may want to ask your vet (or not) about them first. Good luck!

[USA]

Hi Richard D

Low fat and high protein diets are the standard of care for Lymphangiectasia. It looks like supplementation with the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K is also recommended.

I would also speak to my vet and do my own research on supplementing your dog’s diet with digestive enzymes to help with the absorption of protein.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Zach-
Have you tried a stew type of canned? They are easy to mix really well into the dry food. Remember that you only have to worry about the 20% or less for toppers if it is not a balanced topper, such as sardines. Most canned is balanced as long as it doesn’t say for supplemental feeding only. I’ve been using the Kirkland Cuts which has been replaced by Natures Domain canned foods. Also Pure Balance, Merrick and Whole Earth Farms have budget friendly canned stew style foods that I like. Maybe mixing it really well into the kibble will help. Good luck. Wouldn’t it be nice if they could talk sometimes?

[crazy4cats]

Ysabella-
Yes, bless you, bless you, bless you! As my name implies, I love cats! When, I had my first experience with kittens, they were that young, but fortunately had their mamma. She brought them right in my house and I never had one before, and I’ve never been without one ever since! So, I’m not sure about the milk on which would be the best substitute for their mamma’s milk for a few more weeks.
But, I’m with Sharon, you should feed them canned, dehydrated or raw if you can. I feed my kitties (4 of them) as little kibble as possible now. I rotate several budget friendly canned food. I do supplement with kibble as the canned is expensive. My favorite is Wellness Core. But I also like Earthborn and Taste of the Wild. I have two favorite cat sites. They are catinfo.org and littlebigcat.com. Oh, and I wouldn’t worry a lot about the loose stools yet. She’s been through a lot and was just dewormed. Sometimes that can cause loose stools as well. It sounds like you are off to a great start!

[crazy4cats]

Hi Karen C-
In my opinion, for whatever it’s worth, is that no kibble is worth that much money! Yikes, that is expensive. No matter how good a kibble is, it’s still kibble. I prefer to buy more budget friendly kibble for a base and save some money to supplement it with healthier canned, fresh, dehydrated or raw foods. Like the BCnut mentioned, both Earthborn are solid brands. I frequently use grain free Victor. Good luck to you!

[Harpers Mom]

I’ve got horses who need multiple supplements, and although buying in bulk is cheaper, smartpak a are more convient way for them to get them as I am not the only one to feed them.

I personally wouldn’t recommend their dog food.

[theBCnut]

For someone who has a single dog/horse or needs a supplement for just one for some other reason, SmartPak is a bargain, but if you have multiples and they all get something, buying it yourself in bulk is way cheaper.

[aquariangt]

Unless they aren’t being truthful, Wellpet severed all ties with Diamond. A food can be rated 4-5 stars regardless of manufacturer, as DFA rates based on paper alone. The Editor’s Choice and forums are where we get other tidbits of information

A few of my favorites: Simply Nourish Source, Earthborn Small Breed or the Grain Free (don’t love the the other grain inclusives outside of small breed), Fromm 4Star Grain Free, Acana Regionals-I’ve used others but those 4 are most often in rotation. Fromm’s is pretty easy on the stomach. You may try supplementing with some canned or raw to help get the pickier one to eat. You also may try out a dehydrated food-I like Honest Kitchen and Sojos, and one of the two of them will surely be available at your smaller pet stores

If you’re looking for a weight loss food-Wellness Core Healthy Weight has been praised on here, as has Annamaet Lean. I’ve never used either

[Mike Sagman]

Hi Melinda W,

Thanks for suggesting Common Sense Raw. Unfortunately, we’re unable to locate any AAFCO Nutritional Adequacy Statement for Common Sense anywhere on the company’s website. So, it’s impossible for us to determine if these recipes are “complete and balanced” or “for supplemental feeding” only.

Without this important statement, customers cant’s know for which life stage profile these products should (or should not) be fed.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

[Holly C]

My dog, Rumsfeld, a mixed breed 10 year old, had joint troubles and was just diagnosed with hip dysplaysia. I just put him on a new joint supplement a month ago- Missing Link Hip and Joint. It’s a miraculous difference! It comes in a powder form, and my dog will eat it when sprinkled on his ToTW. He moves much better, and it’s getting better every day. I’ve also had my horse on Missing Link Equine. It truly is a great product for a great value. Heres the site- https://www.smartpakequine.com/dog-supplements-232pc

If you are an equestrian, you probably know about SmartPak. They sell horse supplements in custom made doses, shipped automatically to you for cheap. They just started selling canine supplements this year, and it’s the best program ever! You also get a organizing system for free. I pay 12.25/mo for his supplements. I’m thinking about buying their pet food, as well. Like the supplements, it also comes in pre-packaged baggies with your dog food. Seems like a good idea.

Pst- I promise I don’t advertise or anything, but I do tend to get really excited when I find something that works!

[Linsey H]

Hi there, I started reading these forums back when I was first researching a puppy, and so far it has served me well, though I finally have a question. I know that there is a separate thread for large breed puppies, but I felt like my question might have been a bit too long and complicated for it.

I have a 21w, 45lb female Shiloh Shepherd and she has recently started teething. I have been restricting her calcium pretty thoroughly, though I have heard from several reliable people that I should be giving her more during her teething phase. My internet searches so far have been unhelpful and I have not found much scientific data on large breeds and teething. I am also a little concerned with her current diet ratios, so if I am doing something terrible, I am hoping that someone can call me out on it. So far my puppy has been putting on steady 2 pounds a week, with the exception of a few ~3lb/week growth spurts. She does appear to get occasional growing pains still though.

Her current diet:
She receives two meals a day which consist of kibble and toppers, and since she is a puppy she still receives a significant amount of training treats. I have been using http://www.animalmedicalcenterofchicago.com/pdf/CalorieRequirementsForDogs.pdf as a rough guideline for calories- my puppy gets roughly 1.1-1.3k C from kibble and then 200-500C from toppers, chews and training treats. I have read that large breeds have slightly different requirements after 4mo, plus my puppy is decently active- she walks a lot, plays plenty of fetch, and then gets at least 1 hour of dog play through various outlets daily. I generally adjust how much she gets of what based on what she did that day, and she has been staying very lean and well muscled.

For kibble, her breeder had her on Earthborn Holistic: Meadow Feast, and since that was on Hound Dog Mom’s list and had the right amount of calcium I have kept her on it. The breeder also suggested using Flexicose and Missing Link Puppy as supplements- I am not sure if Missing Link is the best, but the breeder said that the calcium amounts checked out (only the min is on the package).

For toppers, she almost always gets a tablespoon of pumpkin and then either raw green tripe, a raw ground mix from our butcher, or canned PetKind. The raw mix consists of 10% green tripe, 10% organs, and 80% beef – it is bone free and has been the main thing reducing calcium in her diet. As of last month, I have started giving my puppy either a raw (irradiated) egg or a chicken wing every 2-3 days (whenever she finishes .75-1lb pound of the supplement). I had read somewhere that a chicken wing contains ~1.86g of calcium and 89g total with ~38% being bone, though my math is still somewhat guestimate-y. I also have backs and necks, but I was under the impression that they had more calcium.

For treats, she either gets soft Buddy Biscuits (grain free), dried/dehydrated meat, lamb lung, Orijen treats, or cooked chicken- she definitely prefers softer treats and no is no longer interested in kibble rewards (she spits it out in training). When I had her on only meat-based rewards, she started to get a little snobbish so I reintroduced the Buddy Biscuits, but I am not sure that they are the healthiest option. I try to limit the amount on normal days to 100C, and then for days she has class (or if I work with her on a lot of new behaviors) she gets 200-300C.

For chews, she either gets Beams (fish skin), bison trachea (dehydrated, I have not been able to find raw/frozen), or tendon- though she is not as interested in the last two since she has been teething. Pumpkin filled kongs have been another option, though she is not a big kong fan. Lamb lung, jerky, or sweet potato, are rare accompaniments to the pumpkin. She is a gentle chewer and only finishes the beams in a single session. She is no longer interested in fruit/veggie chews. For teething, I have tried frozen towels/ropes soaked in a broth solution, but she has yet to go for them. Her favorite “chew” is definitely the raw bones, but I don’t want to give her too many due to calcium levels.

Anyways, my core question is this:
Does her current diet seem too far out of balance?

With the follow-ups being these:
1) Am I giving her too many calories in unbalanced toppers and treats?
2) Is my puppy getting too much or not enough calcium?
3) Are there other raw chewing options with less calcium (unless she needs more)?
4) Are there any specific books I should read in addition to Dr. Becker and Steve Brown’s books?
5) What are some of the better online resources for buying raw? My local butcher shop is pretty great, but unfortunately they don’t carry everything.

[Michele N]

I’ve done my research with my dog for the past 5 years, as he’s had issues since I’ve had him. I KNOW how to read a label, and believe me, I’ve spent more time doing that than anyone I know. I am not an idiot that doesn’t know how to read ingredients, and I am offended at Dinovite, who sent me an ingredient list, of a dog food, that is NOT even what I feed my dog. Maybe THEY should do their research before sending out an email of an ingredient list of a completely different dog food then what I feed my dog. It’s pretty ignorant if you ask me. I have the privilege of knowing pet nutritionist, holistic vets, and have come to my own conclusions, that feeding raw is the very best option, especially if you use your own human food, because then you know exactly what your dog is eating. Unfortunately I cannot afford to feed him this on a daily basis, nor do I always have the time to prepare it for my 3. I am lucky to have 2 excellent pet food stores, not big commercial chain stores, that actually do their research and buy high quality dog and cat food. I switched to grain free years ago, but until I found a brand that used a very limited amount of ingredients did my poor allergy sufferer get any true relief and his skin infection cleared up,and all of his fur grew back. I also think taking him to an allergist and having him tested for every ingredient in dog food, is not only ridiculously expensive, but it’s a huge waste of money. The fact being that the dog food companies use fillers with their mix of vitamins, some of which come from China and India. This is NOT listed on the ingredients on any package including this Dinovite stuff. So that being said, none of us REALLY know every single ingredient in dog food, or premixed vitamins, like Dinovite. Who knows where they get the fillers used to bind the vitamin mix. Who knows for sure what is truly in it? Fact is, my dog is allergic to the outside environment and there isn’t anything I can do to prevent that, which is partly why I wanted to try this Dinovite to help him with this time of year, as they claim the vitamin mix helps dogs with yeast and allergy issues. But instead of helping him, it made him break out with red bumps all over his body, and now we have to deal with a skin infection. There is obviously something in this product that he is very allergic to. So my question is, why is this company putting ingredients in their product, that could cause these severe allergic reactions in dogs that already have immune suppressed systems? Why are they telling people to put their dogs on a yeast free, and grain free diet, yet put those ingredients in their supplement? It seems highly irresponsible of this company to CLAIM to help these dogs, only to make them worse. I can use my own supplements in my dogs food, which is what I was doing, without issues, so I guess, yes , I should’ve known better. Any product out there that CLAIMS to be a cure all, is really a SCAM! I have learned to trust my better judgement, and know that most of these pet products are full of crap. Literally! Also explain to me why when I emailed Dinovite, telling them since putting my dog on it, he is itchier, that,they told me that I need to keep him on it longer because I haven’t given it enough time to do it’s work? Maybe they need to hire some reputable people that give out good advice instead of just caring about their pocket book. Maybe they need to put a disclaimer on their product, stating that this supplement may actually make your dog sicker than he was before starting him on it, and may require you taking him to the vet and paying out enormous vet bills to fix the problem that our product may cause your pet. This product may have helped other dogs that don’t have poor immune systems that can handle the crap they put in this product.

[spaniel39]

Hi, mom <g>
You might remember I have a Big Komondor Girl, Sophie, now 120 lean pounds and
16 Months old. I’m the one that discovered the calcium miss labeling on Canine Caviar.
Anyway, Sophie is on Nutrisource Large Breed Lamb and she loves the Fromm Beef
(Frittata) I’m mixing in with it.
Anyway, I trust your judgement of course, But I thought even as full grown adults
(with the komondor, 18-24 months), still had to watch the calcium levels.
Not taken in by industry advertising, but of course all the “adult” large breed formulas
marketed by companies
Anyway, so once full grown, doesn’t matter? Calcium levels over 2 % and more ok.
Good to know. I supplement with green beens, some fruit (she can smell a blueberry, her
favorite, a mile away, stole my banana from the counter today, etc etc etc)
But for her staple dry kibble, would be nice to rotate inexpensively (for me, under
$55 for a 25 pound bag), and if calcium levels not an issue in a future, more choices
of course
Thanks
Michael (and Samuel the Spaniel and Sophie)!

[Bobby dog]

Hey Akari and C4c:
How do you like my Avatar? It’s Archie, my hyperthyroid kitty. I finally took the time to pick a photo. Lol

I am glad you’re considering probiotics! I threw kefir out there because I know you are kinda taking on the costs of Bentley even though he’s not your responsibility. It has 11 strains of probiotics and it costs between $3 to $4; awesome price for that many beneficial strains. To answer your question about dosage for small dogs 1 tsp – 1 Tb. I dose my cat daily due to his health issues; Bobby gets kefir 2x/wk. More dosage info is on the Ottawa Whisperer link.

Swanson is always recommended by regular DFA posters so I think you are making a great choice. Buy one get one free, better yet! I would even give it to Alec and your guys a few times a week. I agree with C4c, if you are going to spend the money for a probiotic you should buy one with the most strains to get his immune system back on track, the whole point of adding probiotics. The grapefruit yeast supplement only has two strains; IMO that would be something to try when he is healthy again. I also am not sure of the “yeast” included in the title. The probiotic complex is a little better, it has five.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dawn –

If you’re feeding a balanced raw diet, it’s not necessary to add any supplements. However, there are many supplements that may be beneficial. Probiotics are a great way to support gut health – you can purchase probiotic supplements or mix in some kefir or plain yogurt with his meals. Omega 3’s are a wonderful way to support a a healthy skin and coat, provide ant-inflammatory benefits and support the immune system – you can purchase a high quality fish oil or feed tinned sardines and/or cage-free eggs a couple times per week. There are various nutraceuticals that have various health promoting properties you may want to consider – I personally like to make a “blend” of items such as bee pollen, spirulina, kelp, chlorella, turmeric, etc. Swanson Vitamins is a great site to shop for supplements, I do the majority of my supplement shopping for both my dogs and myself there. They’ve got a lot of great stuff and the best prices I’ve found.

[crazy4cats]

Akari-
Have you checked out the Swanson’s supplement website? Some of their stuff is so inexpensive. Almost half of what Amazon charges for some things. I ordered a soil based probiotic a few weeks ago from them. It is a human product. On another note, that is sad when the big box stores close down the smaller specialty stores. 🙁

[Michele N]

I have a 5 year old German Shepherd who has had allergies since he was just a pup. We have tried just about everything out on the market to relieve his itching. He has itched his fur off at times, and it is black underneath. He has a yeasty smell to him. He had to be on steroid shots when he was younger due to his terrible outbreaks and skin infections. He gets worse in the summer, but his problem went year round. Until I got sick of having him on high doses of Benadryll and taking him to the vet for the allergy medicine, which really didn’t help the problem, just gave him a little relief. After a year of me spending hours of researching nutrition , and yeast problems in dogs, I stumbled upon a dog food, that pretty much saved my dogs life. It is Dr. E’s Limited Ingredient Grain and Potato Free Food. It only contains 5 ingredients. For the first time in his life, my dogs fur grew back and he stopped itching and he didn’t smell anymore. I also have him on supplements, probiotics, digestive enzymes by Mercola, Jointsaver, & Lysine. This spring came all the pollens and grass which he is also allergic to, and he started itching again. Although this time he didn’t scratch off his fur. He just had some hot spots, and so I had a friend suggest trying Dinovite, because he said it was helping his dog. I can say that since I put him on this supplement, about a week and a half, he has been itching himself until he bleeds. I emailed the company and they said that was not enough time for the product to work. So I continued a couple more days, and now I am ready to toss this stuff in the garbage. I am so steaming furious, that this company would put out a product that contains yeast as an ingredient, and a ground grain sorghum, and then tell you to put your dog on a yeast and grain free diet, makes no sense to me. I don’t know where they source their ingredients, maybe China, I don’t know, but what I do know is that my dog hasn’t been this bad off in years. He has red bumps all over his legs, back, stomach, groin, even his tail. He is so miserable, that now I may have to have him go back on the terrible medicine I wanted him off of. He has bad hips and elbows and arthritis, so the last thing he needs to be on are steroids. But now it seems as if he has a horrible skin infection after being on this product. We haven’t changed anything else in his diet , so I know for sure, that this reaction is caused from the Dinovite. I absolutely DO NOT recommend giving ANY dog this product that has allergies, immune disorders, pancreatic disorders, or skin problems. He was doing oK, with his allergies, he was itchy, but he didn’t have these red bumps all over his body, and he wasn’t scratching himself bloody. Now I am going to have a huge vet bill, on top of a very miserable dog. I am One very UNHAPPY customer. I should have known better. The less ingredients he has in his diet , the better. There is no miracle cure for allergies, and any product that claims to be, is lying. The only thing you can really do, is limit your dogs ingredients, find a food that has limited ingredients or feed a raw diet so that you know exactly what your dog is eating. Use human grade supplements recommended by a holistic vet, and research dog nutritionists and find one and talk to one if you can. And if you dog is allergic to pollen and grass like mine is, give them baths frequently after they’ve been outside. I use Zymox enzymatic shampoo and rinse. I also have used Dermagic and all of their products are fantastic, especially the hot spot salve. It doesn’t just sooth the itchy skin, it takes the hot spots away. I am mad that I got sucked in to this SCAM at my dogs expense!

[crazy4cats]

I just recently bought some (coconut oil) so I don’t have any real experience with it other than I think it tastes yummy! Lol! I mostly used supplements with slippery elm, l-Glutamine, DGL, and similar. The coconut oil is supposed to be very good for them. Give it a try! Also wanted to tell you that when I feed my dogs Victor with Northwest Naturals mixed in, their “output” is awesome! I only feed a few times a week because it is expensive and I have a lot of canned I need to go through. There are other frozen raw nuggets, such as Nature’s Variety that you could check out also.

[Small]

How is Patch doing? I, too, have had experiences with Prednisone when my Amber had stomach issues. It does help get things under control, but sometimes with side effects. I have read that long-term use can cause Cushing’s disease. Amber developed a bladder infection that I believe was a side effect of the Prednisone. It took 3 lots of antibiotics to finally get rid of it. An ultrasound shows she still has thickening of the bladder wall after 2 months infection free. I did lots of research which led me to change her to a grain-free diet (Acana). Actually, I am now starting to incorporate Orijen. I have added probiotics, vitamins & minerals, krill oil, and a whole food supplement (all Mercola products). She had not had any diarrhea, gas, or anal gland issues since. Not to mention her coat has become soft and silky.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Small.
• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by Small.