[Shawna]

PS — HDM’s diet is one of the best I’ve seen aside from those that have been run through calculators to ensure completeness (like the recipes in Dr. Becker’s Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats). When I was home preparing I fed very similar to HDM’s diet.. I think she is a great asset to the home prepared raw feeding community as well as dog food community in general..

[Shawna]

Weimlove,

HDM mentions her thoughts about veggies in an earlier post on this thread. Here’s the first couple sentences but there’s more “Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet.”

I agree COMPLETELY with her. Our dogs are subjected to SO MANY MORE toxins than their ancestors and certainly more than wolves. Examples — formaldehyde is off gased from particle board furniture for the life of the piece, gas fumes from gas water heaters and vehicles, the chemical PFOA in tephlon pans and wrappers like those on microwave popcorn bags can actually kill a bird at the right concentration, fluoride in drinking water, vaccinations/heartworm/flea tick etc…

Not to mention, many don’t bother feeding organic. Bones from CAFO cattle can be high in contaminants like fluoride. The meat is higher in saturated fat than grass finished beef. The meat can be tainted due to the GMO corn and soy etc etc etc. Additionally, “prey” is going to include fiber from the small amounts of ingested fur, sodium from the blood of the animal, ALL the organs — brains are a source of omega 3 DHA, heart has taurine, pancreas has enzymes, tripe has more fiber (in the bits of ingested plant material that comes with) and probiotics and enzymes and on and on.. Many “prey model” enthusiasts don’t account for all these missing nutrients.

The extra vitamins, minerals and antioxidants in fruits and veggies just seem like a really good idea when we are subjecting our pets to so many toxins that would not be found in their natural environment (or their ancestor’s that is).

Veggies should be cooked or run through the blender or food processor. Running them thorugh the blender breaks down the cellulose layer without needing heat which can damage the natural enzymes within the food. If you would eat the veggie/fruit raw than you can give it to your dog raw too — cucumbers, peppers, berries, celery, zucchini (sp?), carrots, tomatoes etc. The finer they are blended they more nutrients are released. If you would cook it for yourself, cook it for pup — acorn squash, sweet potato etc. Best way to cook them is to steam them in a steamer (can be purchased for $40.00 or less). Add the water from the steamers drip tray back into the food as some minerals are leached during cooking and you can add them back by adding the water back.

Hope that helps :).

[weimlove]

HDM-
Thankyou so much for making that for me, it helps so much!I went to the local butcher yesterday and found some great prices. He has boneless beef chicken and turkey for .50 cents a pound. He also has chicken necks and backs for .60 cents a pound. He also carries whole chickens, chicken leg quarters, and a variety of organs. He does carry venison, but it’s 6 dollars a pound so thats a bit too much to spend on a regular basis. I think I will be able to get all the meat on the menu from him, but I plan on trying to find other sources of meat as well. I also looked on hare today, and they had alot of great meat too for ok prices. There is also a supplement store in town that I can get the vitamin E and alfalfa kelp mix. I already add salmon oil to his food now, so I can just put that on his raw food as well. Yesterday I was reading about the prey model raw diet, and they kept emphasizing that dogs dont need supplements and veggies if they are being fed the 80:10:10. What are your thoughts on that?

[lizemma]

I’m looking for suggestions on a dog food that is low in phosphorus and works for a dog with allergies to chicken, turkey, lamb and pork. Before switching to a renal LP dog food, she was on a salmon and potato dry dog food. My Vet has said that there are no LP dog foods that are not chicken based. Is this correct? I am willing to make her dog food, but want to make sure I don’t miss any essential nutrition. Also, my Vet, who I have high respect for, is against a raw food diet.

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

It’s great that Shadow loved the raw fish – but be careful about which types of fish you feed raw. Salmon, trout and steelhead that are caught in the Pacific can carry “salmon poisoning.” If you want to feed any of these types of fish from this region they should be frozen for a least 2 weeks to kill the parasite.

I make my own wholefood multivitamin/mineral. I order my ingredients from starwest-botanicals.com. I mix equal parts: kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, chlorella, bee pollen, turmeric and garlic powder. You can do this if you want or if you want to make it simpler you can just mix equal parts kelp and alfalfa and that should be plenty. I’d give a dog the size of yours about 1 1/2 tsp. per day. You’ll need to supplement with vitamin e, for a dog the size of yours I’d give 200 i.u. daily or 400 i.u. every other day. Any vitamin e for humans will do, but I order mine from vitacost – I use the “Vitamin E & Tocotrienol Complex” because it has all 4 tocopherols and all 4 tocotrienols (most vitamin e supplements just contain alpha tocopherol). For fish oil I’m currently using Iceland Pure Sardine & Anchovy blend and Carlson cod liver oil, but any quality fish oils will do (I like buying in liquid form so I can mix it in with the food, but you could certainly get capsules if your dog will eat them). This is optional, but I do give my dogs coconut oil every other day and a plant-based omega 3-6-9 on the opposite days as the coconut oil.

I’d love to make you a menu plan, but because I don’t know exactly which cuts of meat will be available to you it’ll be more like a “template”. I’ll give some options and just use what you can get. One of my dogs – Gertie – is an active 70 lb. 2 year old as well so I’ll give you measurements based on what I would feed her. Obviously metabolisms vary from dog to dog so if you find this is too much or too little food feel free to reduce or increase the amounts, just keep everything proportionate. I’m also not sure how many times a day you feed, but I’ll assume you feed two meals a day.

Breakfast:
-5 mornings per week feed 12 oz. boneless red muscle meat (beef, lamb, buffalo, etc. – can use lean ground, chunks, heart, tripe, or some combination of these). 2 mornings per week feed 6 oz. liver and 6 oz. of another organ or any combination of other organs (kidney, spleen, lungs, pancreas, brain, etc.)
-1/2 C. cooked & pureed vegetables (whichever vegetables you want, can add fruit a couple times per week).
-Optional: 1/4 C. cottage cheese, kefir, plain yogurt or goat’s milk (can do this every day or a few days a week)
-1 1/2 tsp. whole food supplement (like a kelp-alfalfa blend or my homemade blend)
-1 tsp. fish oil (alternate between a fish body oil and cod liver oil)
-Optional: 1/2 tsp. coconut oil or a plant-based omega oil (like flax or evening primrose)
-Once or twice a week: 1 tsp ground pumpkin seeds, pecans, almonds or sunflower seeds
-3/4 tsp. ground egg shell (cheap source of calcium, leave eggshells out to dry then put them through a coffee grinder the next day) or 600-750 mg. of a calcium supplement of your choice (if your butcher sells meat/bone grinds for large animals like beef you could certainly use these and omit the calcium, but most butchers don’t have the equipment to grind heavy bones, so the calcium will have to be added separately)
-200 i.u. vitamin e (or 400 i.u. every other day)

*You can feed this same meal for breakfast daily, just rotate in new protein sources, switch up the extras (cottage cheese, yogurt, nuts and seeds, etc.) and feed a variety of vegetables and fruits.

Dinner (I often alternate between these two dinners for my dogs):
-Chicken back or leg quarter
-8 oz. Gizzards or hearts or boneless chicken (ground or chunks)
-Whole egg with shell
OR
-2 Turkey necks (about 6 oz. each)
-8 oz. Turkey hearts or gizzards or boneless turkey (ground or chunks)

Remember the more variety you can feed the better! Feed as many different protein sources as you can, using as many types of organs as possible, different vegetables and different fats. Each meal doesn’t have to supply every possible vitamin and mineral your dog needs, but over time the diet should balance. So the more variety you can feed the wider variety of nutrients your dog will get.

[skippy5761]

Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Hi Hound Dog Mom,
Really appreciate you taking the time and all the info. Definitely will take the time to read all articles and do research on the raw diet Thread. My older is a finicky eater and has major joint problems, had both ACL repairs down at age 6, she is an American Golden Retriever, my baby is 2 an is an English Cream Golden. Goldens have a tendency to put on weight, so this is one of the reasons I’m looking at a raw diet along with the other benefits from it. My first golden passed from renal failure, so you can understand my concern about high proteins and kidney function. Feeding Core ocean and Merrick Buffalo, both above average kibble, but want to get away from it from everything I have been reading. Thank you again.

[weimlove]

HDM-
I plan on switching completely to home made raw within the few weeks, I was wondering if you had the extra time, if you wouldnt mind making me up a one or two week menu plan so I can get a feel for what type and kind of meat, veggies, and supplements to purchase. If you dont have time, dont worry about it, but it seems like you are very passionate about feeding raw so I dont think you would mind. If you do decide to make a menu for me, keep in mind that Shadow is a 70 pound active two year old dog. Thank you so much!

[weimlove]

HDM-
i have talked to some local raw feeders, and they use a local butcher to get their meat. I plan on going up there tommorow to check out what they offer and the prices. I fed Shadow a peice of raw fish tonight to see if he would like it, and he gobbled it down! Yay! I think you are right about the pre-mix being pricey. I would be spending about 50 dollars a month just for the pre-mix. Thanks for all of your help. As far as supplements, where do you buy them from?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Skippy5761 –

You should check out the Raw Diet thread. I have three bloodhounds – including a senior – that all eat raw ranging from 45% – 55% protein at each meal. My senior is in excellent health. Senior dogs actually need up to 50% more protein than adult dogs, they just need high quality protein which you would get with a raw diet. Some believe high levels of protein stress the kidneys of older dogs but this isn’t true, low quality protein (like the rendered, high processed proteins in kibble) stress the kidneys.

Here is an article by Dr. Becker titled “Why 84% of Pet Owners Don’t Know What to Feed Their Aging Pets.”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/05/05/surprising-findings-from-tufts-study-of-37-senior-dog-foods.aspx

Here’s a video from Dr. Becker titled “The Nutrient Your Pets need More of as They Age.”

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/04/26/make-this-mistake-with-your-pets-food-and-you-could-destroy-their-kidney-and-liver.aspx

Here is an article on the effects of a high protein diet on renal function:

http://files.championpetfoods.com/Effects_of_High_Protein_on_Renal_Function.pdf

Hope that helps 🙂

[skippy5761]

Need feedback on feeding older dogs(12) and higher protein foods. Considering switching
My 2 year old and my 12 year old to a raw diet. Concerned about protein levels. Was looking at the raw diets from Answers. Any suggestions, just starting to do some serious research into raw diets. Thanks

[Hound Dog Mom]

weimlove –

I would say that if you shop smart, homemade is without a doubt the cheapest route to go. I actually invested in some freezers – I bought one new and got two used off craig’s list – and order in bulk 300 lb. shipments. I get all my meat from a supplier that supplies grocery stores and restaurants, they’ll supply dog kennels too but have a 300 lb. minimum. For me it was worth it, my dog’s are large and eat a lot anyways so it really only takes me about 8 weeks to go through my 300 lb. order and the prices are so much cheaper than what I’d have to pay at the grocery store. If raw is something you really want to get into and continue it may be worth considering something like this – since you only have one dog you could even see if there’s someone else in your area interested in raw and you could go in on orders together to reach the minimum order quantity. I’m sure it’d be possible to find a wholesale distributor like this in most areas. Butchers are great too, if you can find an independently owned butcher (rather than a big chain grocery store) they’d probably be more willing to cater to your needs for certain cuts of meat as well – meaning you could probably get them to save things like kidneys, lungs, etc. etc. that usually get thrown out. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two other great places to get supplies (they have very reasonable prices and shipping prices) – they sell whole ground animals and also hard to find items like certain organs and green tripe. In generally boneless meat costs a lot more than bone-in meat, which is what I think makes the pre-mixes pricey – you have to use all boneless meat then pay for the pre-mix on top of it. A final suggestion for keeping costs low would be that when you’re feeding boneless meat (you’ll have to feed some of course to balance out the phosphorus in the RMBs) go with things like gizzards, hearts and green tripe – I know these things sound a lot less desirable to a person but they’re quality protein for dogs and supply a lot more nutrients than things like boneless skinless chicken breast and extra lean ground beef and they’re way cheaper.

As for supplements to add, assuming you’re feeding a balanced mixture of 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bone I’d recommend adding vitamin e (200 i.u. or so a day or 400 i.u. every few days should be plenty for a dog the size of yours), greens (some variety of kelp, alfalfa, spirulina, etc. rotate if you want). I like to give cod liver oil every other day to ensure my dogs are getting enough vitamin d – use this sparingly though as most varieties have excessive levels of vitamin a, I use Carlson brand because it has the lowest amount of vitamin a and I give a sardine/anchovy oil blend on the opposite days that I give cod liver oil. Dairy is optional, I do find that it stretches out the food a bit though and cuts the cost and I like giving kefir a few times a week for probiotics. I think it’s beneficial to give ground nuts or seeds once or twice a week – every once in a while I just throw some pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds or pecans in the coffee grinder and give each dog about a tsp.

Concerning vegetables, many don’t feel that they’re necessary. Vegetables aren’t part of a dog’s natural diet and I do agree that as long as everything else I described above is provided that they probably aren’t necessary, but I do strongly feel that when they’re provided in small quantities they can be a beneficial addition to the dog’s diet. They provide a lot of antioxidants and with all the chemicals our dogs are exposed to in this day and age antioxidants can help the immune system a great deal. The important thing is that they need to be lightly cooked and pureed – dogs don’t produce the enzyme necessary to break down the cellulose in the cell walls of the plant matter, so cooking and pureeing in a sense “pre-digests” the veggies so that the dog can obtain the nutrients. I’d avoid any starchy vegetables (like potatoes and peas) and onion (toxic to dogs). Some of my favorites to use are are spinach, celery, carrots, kale, broccoli, collard greens, mustard greens, squash, pumpkin, etc. Fruit isn’t necessary either, but I think a small amount of berries or apple once or twice a week is healthy.

[weimlove]

HDM-
Over the past couple of days I have been reading alot of your menu plans. I am so impressed with the amount of knowledge you know about raw feeding. In your opinion, would it be cheaper to use THK preference and add ground meat, or simply go to the local butcher and buy my own meat, meat with bone, and organs? Right now I am spending atleast 80 dollars a month on a high quality kibble plus some wet food, so I am trying to stay in the price range (or hopefully lower!) If I do decide to make my own meals completely, I know I will need to add salmon oil,or something similar, plus vitamin e supplements. Is there any other supplements I will need to add? Also, is it necessary to add veggies, and if so what kind? Thanks for all of your help.

[weimlove]

Tox,
Wow! That was alot of information, but once i read it a few times and let it sink in, it was very useful and helpful. My dog received his one year booster last May, and I am about to transition him to a raw diet so that will definintly build up his immune system. I am also definintly going to consider titer testing, as I think that would be a great alternative to unnecessary vaccines. Thanks so much for posting all of the great information.

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Weimlove,
I’m in the don’t vaccinate catagory. My 16 yr old Pom, Sonya, is toxically injured from pesticide poisoning, like me. She used to get dis/parv every 3 years, before I knew better, & Rabies every 5. My 2 year old standard poodle, & service dog, Rosie, had one set of distemper/parvo at the breeders, the day before I got her. 4 days later she nearly died. When it was time or the next booster, I asked the vet to titer instead. She came back “protected for life.” They other thing we discovered, the toxins from her vaccines come out of her body and make me sick. Since the most toxic vac necessary in our area is the Rabies, I got a medical exemption for her, and for me. So we don’t do any. I also use natural substances for parasites & pests, no pesticides! I feed organic Raw, & Brother’s Complete, with supplements like probiotics, enzymes, astaxanthin, & detox caps, as needed. We have a non-toxic, fragrance free environment.

I support the rabies challenge fund.

[Shawna]

Glad the recommended sites were helpful 🙂 The dog in my avatar (my Audrey) was born with kidney disease. She started showing symptoms as early as 6 weeks old and was officially diagnosed at her 1 year blood work. Audrey received only her first set of puppy shots (at the breeders before coming to me) and has never been vaccinated for rabies (she is exempt for life due to her disease). I truly believe in minimal vaccination, minimal toxic exposure (heartworm, flea/tick, yard chemicals, fluoridated water etc), species appropriate diets etc. Audrey is living proof. She is now 6 and 1/2 years old and still in excellent health (still has kidney disease but she’s not sick). She’s been raw fed since she was weaned. I used to home make her diet but life got busy and I don’t have the time to do it properly right now so I feed commercial raw.. I foster too and from this Audrey has been exposed to giardia, coccidia, ringworm, kennel cough etc. If she does get ill from these it is always short lived and she to date has not required medical intervention for anything… She’s VERY healthy despite having kidney disease. Imagine how healthy an already healthy dog can be with the right food and limited toxic exposures..? 🙂

[weimlove]

Oh ok great, thanks for your input. When transitioning to raw, all advice helps!

[pugmomsandy]

My small dogs can consume any part of a chicken and turkey and also pork rib bones and rack of lamb (is that lamb rib??) and whole raw sardine. Sometimes I just buy the large package of chicken drumsticks or thighs or wings. Don’t forget chicken feet. Great for teeth cleaning and joint health. I haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet 🙁

[weimlove]

Ok, I think I will start with ground chicken, and use the higher amount of meat to pre mix version. I also will feed a rmb everyday and use chicken back, necks, etc. I will also be sticking to the smaller meaty rmb’s instead of the larger bones like the lamb one I fed yesterday. For now, I will use the pre mix just to begin a raw diet, but someday I would love to create my own raw meal and add the correct amounts of meat, organs, and bones. It is probably cheaper to create your own raw meal since you can get quality ingredients at the butcher for very cheap.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

Don’t feel bad bad for the question overload…I love questions! 🙂

If you’re using a pre-mix don’t use meat/organ/bone mixtures. Most pre-mixes only require boneless meat, a few (such as urban wolf) do require organ meat but most don’t require organs either. The reason you don’t want to include bone is because dogs need a balanced ratio of calcium to phosphorus, this ratio needs to be between 1:1 and 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. The pre-mixes are made with calcium and without phosphorus. Muscle meat and organ meat is high in phosphorus but has no calcium, while bone is high in calcium in lower in phosphorus. For raw feeders the correct ratio of muscle meat, organ meat and bone (80%, 10%, 10%) must be fed to ensure that the calcium and phosphorus levels are within balance and that enough organ meat is provided to provide essential vitamins and minerals – this is the most critical part of feeding homemade raw! The purpose of a pre-mix is to take the hard work out of it. Enough calcium is added to the pre-mix so that when boneless meat is added per the package instructions the calcium to phosphorus ratio will be in balance and most brands add the vitamins and minerals that would be found in the organ meat so that the addition of organ meat is not necessary. If you added organ meat and bones to a pre-mix you would potentially be throwing the calcium to phosphorus ratio out of balance and/or oversupplying certain nutrients. However, you could definitely add an rmb (such as a back or a neck) to the meal daily without throwing the calcium to phosphorus ratio out of whack – just feed the rmb in addition to the boneless meat that you add to the pre-mix, don’t count the rmb as the meat you’re adding to the pre-mix. I’d also go with the instructions that call for more meat and less pre-mix if you’re going to be feeding rmbs, as well. I know for THK’s preference there are two sets of instructions – one recommended for younger or more active dogs and one for older or more sedentary dogs. The one for active dogs called for 2 parts meat to 1 part pre-mix, while the one for less active dogs calls for equal parts of pre-mix and meat. While THK doesn’t supply the c:p ratio of the prepared product I’d assume the recipe calling for 2 parts meat to 1 part pre-mix is around 1:1, while the recipe calling for equal parts pre-mix is closer to 2:1. Using the recipe that calls for less pre-mix will keep the c:p ratio lower so when you add rmbs you’ll remain well within the 1:1 – 2:1 range. As for which type of boneless meat to add, you really can add any boneless muscle meat. I find that heart and gizzards tend to be cheapest (remember, heart and gizzards count as organ meat, not muscle meat). However, you certainly could buy ground beef, turkey, chicken, etc. (I’d keep it around 90% lean) or chop up boneless thigh meat breast meat or whatnot. Hope that wasn’t too confusing!

As for getting a picture, I think Dr. Mike has instructions on how to do it posted under the feedback and help section of the forums.

[weimlove]

Oh, and also how do you add a picture to my profile?

[weimlove]

HDM-
I have read that switching cold turkey will probably will be best for me, because Shadow has a very sensitive stomach. I have reviewed some websites, and many of them say that it is easier on their digestive systems, because it dosent have to try to digest two different kinds of food. I have always fed Shadow a five star kibble. He has eaten the Acana fish formula, as well as the lamb. He has also eaten chicken, liver, and beef treats. I have also heard that chicken is usually a great starter food. As far as the type of chicken, do I just buy ground up chicken? Or do I need to get a chicken with bone and organ? I dont think i need organ and bone because I will be using a pre-mix, but what part on the chicken should I start out feeding? (wing, neck, back, etc?) Sorry for my question overload, I just want to make sure I do this right!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weimlove –

Whether you switch cold turkey or gradual is kind of up to you. I have read some that recommend gradual and I’ve heard others that recommend just doing it cold turkey (literally, lol). I personally switched my dogs cold turkey. They were eating The Honest Kitchen and canned food at the time and I just did the switch. They didn’t have any issues. My dogs all have pretty strong stomachs though. I’ve also read that for those switching cold turkey it can be easier on the dog’s stomach if you fast the dog for about 12 hours prior (I didn’t do this, but it may help for more sensitive dogs). As for which meat to start with, it’s generally recommended to feed only one meat for the first week to allow your dog’s stomach time to adjust – chicken is a good choice as it’s one most dogs have been exposed to. I’d stay away from more exotic meats that your dog hasn’t eaten until he’s gotten accustomed to the raw.

[weimlove]

HDM- yes, that was his first time ever eating anything raw, so it was probably the fat content. The bone I gave him was also a pretty large lamb bone. I will try to attach a picture of it. I will definitely try the smaller meaty bones you suggested. I was very worried last night, thanks for the peace of mind. Also, when I do switch him to raw all the way, should I do a gradual switch or just go cold turkey on the kibble? And what do you think would be the best meat and meat type to start him out on? Keep in mind that I will be mixing it with honest kitchen dehydrated pre mix. Thanks so much!!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Weimlove –

Oftentimes when I fed my dogs more dense, weight-bearing bones from large ruminants (cows, buffalo, sheep, etc.) they threw up shards about 8-12 hours after chewing the bone. For this reason I now stick with raw meaty bones. There are two types of bones 1) Recreational bones – these are going to be your marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc. and will be from large animals like cows, buffalo and sheep. These bones are not completely consumable (meaning your dog shouldn’t be able to eat the entire bone) and don’t provide a whole lot of nutrition, they are more just for fun chewing pleasure. 2) Raw Meaty Bones (you’ll often see these referred to as “RMBs). RMBs are completely consumable (meaning your dog should be be able to eat the entire thing) and provide a lot of nutrition. RMBs typically include poultry bones (chicken necks, chicken backs, chicken feet, turkey necks, duck necks, etc.) but for some larger dogs that have more powerful jaws, non-weight bearing bones of large ruminants (such as pork or beef or lamb necks or rib bones) can be considered RMBs as well. I no longer give my dogs recreational bones because of the issue with puking up the shards (I believe that because the bones are so dense they aren’t highly digestible, which results in the puking) and because I’ve read several reports of dogs actually breaking teeth on them or wearing down their teeth over time. There’s also a chance that your dog may have puked after the bone due to high fat content. Recreational bones contain marrow and marrow is very high in fat, if your dog is just switching to a raw diet and isn’t accustomed to this it could have resulted in some stomach upset. I’d recommend getting some RMBs for your dog. Primal does sell some RMBs but you could likely get them for a lot cheaper at a butcher. I get chicken backs for $0.40/lb. and turkey necks for $0.60/lb.

[weimlove]

Shawna,
Thanks so much for posting those sites. They were all very informative, and I have learned alot from them. After reviewing all of this information, I believe I can almost be sure that since Shadow (my weim) has had all of his puppy shots, and one year booster, that he will be protected for the rest if his life. I also think that once I start feeding him raw, that is will build up his immune system even more.

[weimlove]

Shawna,
oops, I meant dehydrated. Thank you for all of you help. I have researched other dehydrated brands, and I also like the honest kitchen because of its lack of potatoe. Thanks for clarrifying that I dont need to add bone, I was concerned about the ratios of bone, organ, etc. I also think the commercial dog food are great, but can get a little pricey, For that reason I think I will go to a local butcher that other raw feeders use and get them to grind up the meat for me.

HDM,
Thank you for all of your help as well! You seem to be so educated with raw feeding, and I hope one day it comes as easy to me as it does to you! Yesterday, I fed Shadow (my weim) a raw lamb bone from Primal, and I added a bit of the Grandma Lucys to his Acana kibble to see how he likes it. He LOVED the raw lamb bone, and ate almost half of it. He also seemed to love the Grandma Lucys pre-mix, but at 1 AM he woke up and threw up. It wasnt alot. Most of it looked like the Grandma Lucys, but he did throw up a small peice of sharp bone. Is this common for a dogs first time eating a raw bone? Or was it the type of bone I bought?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi weimlove –

Great choice on switching to raw, you’ll notice a big difference in your dog’s health. I agree with everything Shawna said. I just wanted to add some info on a pre-mix I like. I feed mostly homemade (you can check out a weekly feeding schedule for my dogs on the “Suggested Raw Dog Food Menus?” thread) however I use Urban Wolf Pre-mix three mornings a week. What I like about Urban Wolf versus other pre-mixes is that it’s a fine powder and in my experience digests better (with pre-mixes like Sojo’s I notice an increase in stool volume and pieces of undigested veggies coming out) and that it relies on whole foods for nutrition – the only “vitamin” added is calcium, everything else comes from whole foods and I like that you have to add organ meat so your dog gets a lot of necessary nutrients from the organs rather than from added synthetic vitamins and minerals. You also need to add oil (but I’d recommend just adding an omega 3 and omitting the omega 6 oil they call for in the recipe, it’s not necessary to add the omega 6 oil and it results in the end recipe being too high in fat – you can see how I prepare it on the menus thread if you’re interested). The only downside of Urban Wolf, for me, is that it does contain white potato (although it’s pretty far down on the ingredients list and not a major component) – but I only use it a few mornings a week so it’d not of big concern for me. If you’re using only pre-mixes every day it’d probably be best to rotate and use several different pre-mixes. Here’s some good info on pre-mixes and it explains several of the options out there: http://dogaware.com/diet/dogfoodmixes.html . I’d recommend feeding an even rotation of white meat and red meat, don’t rely on one or the other as they have different types of fats and if you only feed one or the other it would throw off the fat balance in your dog’s diet. The more variety the better. I’d also recommend feeding raw meaty bones at least two or three times a week this way your dog can get the full dental benefits a raw diet has to offer. I have large dogs and usually feed things like turkey necks, chicken backs, chicken leg quarters, duck necks, etc. Chicken necks and chicken wings work well for smaller dogs. I’d avoid the weight bearing bones of large ruminants (such as marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc.) as they are too dense and can potentially chip a tooth or over time your dog can wear their teeth down – in my experience they also don’t digest well either, I used to feed them to my dogs occasionally and it seemed like they’d always puke up bone shards. Good luck! Be sure to come back if you have any questions, quite a few of us here feed raw and would love to help. 🙂

[Shawna]

Weimlove ~~ for clarification, The Honest Kitchen foods are dehydrated versus freeze dried. I personally like freeze drying better but I like the lack of potato in The Honest Kitchen and that they are guaranteed to use human grade foods. That being said, I think it is as important to rotate the starch etc as it is the proteins. I rotate through the premixes from See Spot Live Longer, Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s and Sojo. I will use others as they become locally available.

When using a premix, unless it specifies, you don’t need to add liver and shouldn’t add bone. Everything is in the premix to balance the meat you add. If you want to add liver I’d just do so in the form of treats. I dehydrate organic liver for my pups and they LOVE it. In a home made diet you only add 5% of the diet as liver (and 5% as other organs — heart, kidneys etc) so liver treats should be ample to an already balanced diet.

I also use complete and balanced commercial raw products in my rotation. I like Darwins and Bravo Balance. Bravo also has some meat only options that are great to add to the premixes (salmon, buffalo and venison are the options available).

[weimlove]

Hi, I have been researching the raw diet and I have decided to switch my two year old Weim over to raw. I plan on feeding him a freeze dried pre mix from either the honest kitchen or grandma Lucy’s, and then adding my own meat. I know you gave to rotate proteins, but what amount of organ and bone do you need to include? I am brand new to this so any tips would be much appreciated!

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Kevin,
Nylabone and greenies have both caused serious health problems.. I can’t remember the details. But, you can look them up on a search engine, and I believe Dr. Becker (DVM) on mercola.healthypets.com has some articles about it. The healthiest thing to give your dog to clean their teeth is raw meaty bones and a species appropriate diet. No grains. Dogs have no dietary need for grain. In fact, their canine cousins in the wild consume only about 5-6% vegetable matter (not grains, but including small amounts of fruit). Feeding grains leads to weight gain, dental carries and plaque, as well as many other adverse health conditions. Crunching up RAW bones, scrapes them clean. Feeding a meat protein based, balanced diet is the best thing you can do to maintain their good health. If you check out the prescription diets, you’ll see they contain mostly plant based proteins. Which don’t contain complete, biologically appropriate proteins for carnivores.

A raw chicken or turkey neck, or chicken wing is a good, inexpensive “tooth brush” for your mid sized dog. You can get them cheap, by buying past date ones at the meat counter. Buy in bulk, repackage & freeze in individual portions.

For more info on raw feeding check out Dr. Becker’s articles on that too. Hope that helps. 🙂

[theBCnut]

I feed raw meaty bones to my dogs and their teeth are really nice.

[theBCnut]

I feed raw meaty bones and my dogs’ teeth are really nice.

[theBCnut]

First and foremost, what are you feeding her? My first thought is to try and get her on a high meat protein diet, with moderate fat and low carbs, no grain or white potato. Add digestive enzymes too, so her body has to do as little work as possible to get as much as possible out of her food. I’d like to suggest that you go to Brotherscomplete.com and read their Brothers Document and their FAQs. A lot of allergy and digestive issues in dogs are because we don’t feed them a species appropriate diet and Brothers was designed to address that issue. In my opinion, the only thing you can do better is to start feeding balanced raw.

[Melissaandcrew]

We use a variety of canned-Fromm, Vet extension, Blue Wilderness tend to be favorites. I have also used 4health canned chicken in the past. I find the dogs much prefer the days that I use the prepared commercial raw or the Grandma Lucy’s however.

[momofmutts]

one of my dogs has anal gland issues as well. She’s been on a raw food diet for 6 years. I haven’t found that it has made any difference, or helped express them. It isn’t difficult to do it yourself, if you are shown how. Angel is quite good about having it done. I just hold a paper towel over her bum when i drain them and it really isn’t very messy.

[pugmomsandy]

I even rotate foods for the fosters. They get a different bag every time. They get exposed to all different proteins and fruit/veg and different levels of micronutrients/vits/minerals. My one foster is only getting canned food and raw food but still gets different flavors of canned and different raw foods as it comes in a 2 lb bag and I have 4 different ones to chose from. My personal dogs get canned, kibble, freeze dried, and raw and occasioanlly dehydrated. I just don’t get feeding one food forever.

[Jackie B]

Some dog breeds just have trouble with anal glands. Raw food (including the commercial raw diet) results in some of the firmest poop. Firm poop naturally expresses the dog’s anal glands when the dog defecates. Raw is worth a try!

[theBCnut]

Feeding raw meaty bones helps to make the stool harder which helps to naturally release the anal glands. You need to really watch your dog when you first start feeding bones to make sure your dog chews up the bones instead of gulping. Starting with chicken necks works well or if you have a large dog turkey necks.

[susalu]

My sweet Schmoopy has anal gland issues and needs to have them regularly expressed… every couple of months… Right now I have her on Vitality dog food in the AM (5 stars) and Natural Balance dry food in the evenings… Thinking about switching the PM food to raw… Any suggestions?

[Jackie B]

I met a family with their Boxer, a female which looked excessively itchy and miserable with raw, red skin in many places. I asked tactfully why she was like that, and they told me that the vet had been treating her for “mange.” For the last 12 MONTHS. They were taking her in every 3 weeks for an expensive skin treatment. I asked what food they were using– Pedigree. Apparently, their vet had not even mentioned the possibility of the skin problems being related to food allergies or that she might have poor health due to poor food. I of course gave them the DFA website and strongly suggested that they check out the review of Pedigree.

There are plenty of people who listen to vets exclusively and don’t go beyond and do their own investigation.

[Shawna]

Hi poochie1059 — I agree with everything Hound Dog Mom wrote. Many better quality foods are appropriate for puppy, adult and senior dogs.

I wanted to add, MANY of us here on DFA, including Dr. Mike, believe in rotational feeding. We switch our dogs food regularly. Some switch daily, some with each new bag of kibble, some every other month and so on. If you start when the dog is a puppy and feed the same quality of foods you can switch between foods without having to “transition”. Dogs should be able to eat whatever (that is appropriate) you put in front of them. By only feeding one food we actually create sensitive tummies.

I rotate with every new bag of food and buy the smaller 5 and 6lb bags. I rotate proteins as well as brands. I use a variety of 5 star “all life stage” foods for all the dogs in my home including the foster puppies the adults and the seniors (I have 8 dogs and foster for Boston and Papillon rescue). The foods I use include Acana, Orijen, Brothers Complete, Merrick, Earthborn, Nature’s Variety, Nature’s Logic etc.

Additionally, many of us put “toppers” on our dogs’ foods. The topper can include canned foods, dehydrated, commercial raw, sardines, raw or lightly cooked egg etc. All these add extra nutrition and variety — sardines as an example are a great source of extra protein and omega 3 fatty acids.

Good luck with and best of health to your puppy!!!

[Toxed2loss]

Hi Sophia,

Insects are far more resilient than mammals. So much so that by the over use of chemical insecticides we’ve inadvertently produced pests that are immune to them. The chemical companies keep producing and selling more harmful chemicals in response. These poison our pets. So I’m copying a post that I originally shared on the Mercola Healthy Pets forum. Just in case you want to go that route.

“IPM Fleas
I use a method that my daughter and I developed when she went off to college (with her dog) and discovered her apartment and yard were infested from the previous renter’s cat and the abundance of ferel cats that frequented her yard. My daughter is an IPM entomologist and started her professional career at age 15. Here’s what we worked out.:

The first thing to consider is breaking the flea life cycle, which is: hatch out of eggs laid in textiles or litter, feed as nymph, metamorphasize to adult, hop on dog, mate/feed, hop off, lay eggs, repeat…

Bathing your dog regularly is a great way to interrupt the flea reproductive cycle… if they don’t reproduce, no resident fleas.

I use a fragrance free, non toxic detergent. I am currently using naturoli’s soapnut shampoo. Its extremely mild and nourishes the skin and coat. All the pet shampoos (even the hypo-allergenic ones) at pet stores have stuff I wouldn’t use, therefore, I won’t put it on my dogs. Occassionally I use a few drops of a REPELLENT, non toxic pet shampoo along with the detergent. I use Earthypet, for the drops. I get it at http://www.allnaturalcosmetics.com Its very fragrant, and more than 1 drop per small dog, 2 for med-large hurts me. I can only imagine how much it offends the dog. (For your sick dogs, I’d avoid the aromatics until they recover!) One of the ways you can monitor if the VOCs are too high for your dog is, “do they rub their face on the carpet?” That indicates that it is hurting their noses.

Keep in mind that your dog could still have gotten flea born diseases when you used a pesticide, as it takes a while for the resident fleas to get killed. A repellent, like lavender and rosemary oils, keeps the blood feeders away, and therefore prevents insect vectored diseases.

When I bath my pom. I fill up the laundry sink and have her sit in it for 3-5 min. I protect the ears and nose. I also watch for fleeing fleas and squish ’em. Make sure they pop. You will also see them swimming in the tub. Squish those too. Washing them down the drain isn’t enough. They hop back out. Also for the first several weeks, check your dog, down to the skin in a well lit area for fleas. Use a desk lamp. The fleas will come to the warmth. You’ll still have to comb through all her hair and examine all of her skin. If she’s picked up a tick, or cheat grass, you will find it during this procedure. Don’t forget to squish the fleas. When you aren’t seeing them or their “dirt”, you can move your bath times to less frequently, but monitor to find the best schedule. I bath more frequently during heavy hatches. Contact your State University, Experiment Station Entomologist for the timing of the heaviest hatch(es) in your area.

Next: frequent laundering (weekly to every 2 weeks) of your dogs bedding, with borax as a laundry booster: 1/4 to 1/2 cup per load. Borax residues form crystals in the fabric, which scratch through the exoskeleton and cause the adults to suffocate. I love that part! (dry on Hot) Fleas lay their eggs near where your dog habitates, in fibers: Carpet, upholstry, bedding. Flea nymphs hatch out and start feeding on what’s in their environment. Residual borax is consumed and kills the nymphs.

For control in carpets and upholstery, I wash them (steam clean) with borax solution. Its also a great way to get out petroleum and oil stains… as well as odors. Unless something happens, I shampoo a couple of times a year, like during major hatch cycles. (spring) and at the end of the summer to minimize the indoor population. The borax crystalizes after this too, and kills both adults and nymphs.

So, this method kills by drowning or suffocating the adults, poisoning the nymphs, and drowning/frying the eggs. It is an intergrated, (non invasive) pest management practice or IPM.

There are a number of things you can do to deter mosquitos from feeding on your pet. The aromatics work by repelling, but you can use garlic, (one of Shawna’s favorites!) Or complex Bs make the blood unpalatable to insects. I have frequently fed brewer’s yeast to get the Bs, but I’m hearing some downsides. Get a good supplement. Healthy raw foods with lightly cooked broccoli and other cruciferous veggies (see Dr. Becker’s book for amounts) are high in sulfur, and that repels mosquitos. Tumeric and curry (garam masala) have healing properties as well as making you “not a biting insects preferred snack.” Hope that helps! 🙂

I also mix up a spray bottle with water and some of Dr. Bronner’s Castile, mint oil soap. It repels mosquitos. I use this as a spray-on during peak seasons or heavy hatches. I went to the coast a few years back in May. I used this and everyone else in the campground was slapping mosquitos, regardless of “off” and deet, and I didn’t have even one, near me. It lasted all night. As you probably know mosquitos vector heartworm. So this little preventive measure goes a long way in protecting pups from heartworm.”

Hope that helps!

[Jackie B]

I switch through foods a lot because Prince gets bored of foods very fast. On his rotation are homemade recipes from Feed Your Best Friend Better, Stella & Chewy’s frozen raw, Sojo’s Grain-free (with raw beef), Artemix Fresh Mix Beef, Party Animal Venison, and some Merrick grain-free foods.

I do feed the Solid Gold Seameal. Recently I purchased some Missing Link supplement as well, so I might start doing both of those. They have different stuff in them.

[Safe4pups]

By the way – have you tried a good raw bone? I wouldn’t leave the marrow in it because of her compromised immune system, but a good, clean, raw bone can keep a dogs chewing instinct satisfied as well as keep the teeth clean.

[Shawna]

I had to do a food trial too.. I’m a raw feeder and feed a LOT of variety so a food trial was a must. I eliminated EVERYTHING she had been exposed to in the past and started feeding her raw ostrich as the protein and a novel starch and gave her freeze dried goat for treats.. She ate this and only this for 6 months. At the end of the 6 months her sysmptoms were a thing of the past. I then introduced a new food about every 4 days to make sure there wasn’t a delayed reaction. Turns out she is allergic to beef bone (which I have to watch in whole food supplements as well as her raw diet), goat dairy, cow tripe and barley. I believe the lectin proteins in the barley damaged her gut allowing the proteins from the other foods to get into her bloodstream causing the allergic reaction. Oddly, she has no issue with what we think to be “protein” — chicken, beef, lamb, duck, turkey etc.

With Audrey we were sure it was a food allergy because she had symptoms year round and because her eosinophil white blood cell count was high on her blood work (eosinophils can be high with food allergies and parasitic infections). From my understanding, eosinophils are not high in food intolerances however and food intolerances (like Audrey’s to barley) can have the same symptoms as true allergies.

[theBCnut]

Micah was showing signs of leaky gut as an 8-9 week old puppy with IBS and some other issues. I started switching his food immediately to improve his nutrition, but unfortunately, I didn’t really put 2 and 2 and 2 together until he started showing signs of systemic yeast. I got him switched over to Brothers Allergy Formula and raw(Darwin’s and homemade) about as fast as I thought I dared. And at just shy of 3 months on the new diet he is doing much better. He was having hot, red, itchy skin, seborrhea, inflamed intestines, mucousy diarrhea, red irritated eyes with discharge, as well as some other stuff. Really the only thing I wasn’t seeing was that he didn’t yet have the yeasty ears or skin sores. Fast forward 3 months, he has had brief periods of all those same symptoms, but they quickly resolve, he has had his ears wax up a couple times, and now he has a single skin sore.

I think it would be helpful to all of us that have a dog with this kind of issue, if we have a place to find out what is a normal detox versus it might be something else. So please share your detox story including what helps make it easier.

[shibasenji]

The only canned food I like is Weruva. And yes, it’s made in Thailand, not China (for the record, Taiwan is not China either, but I don’t know any Taiwanese-manufactured pet food that is distributed overseas). We’ve tried some other brands, but most of them are so pasty and stinky, I don’t think it’s worth the money. My two dogs aren’t picky, so the only reason I feed canned is to add variety and moisture, but I can take care of that in other ways — dehydrated raw, refrigerated soft/wet brands, or prepare my own blend of homecooked or raw.

[fishdog]

I have an 11 year old Alaska Husky, former sled dog, that bwas diagnosed with diabetes last winter. After a lot of experimenting with diet and insulin we finally achieved a workable balance with raw food. All went well untill recently (3 weeks ago) when his blood sugar levels became consistently elevated. We have tried varieties of new foods and insulin amounts with nothing more than temporary results.
This dog has had a very active life as a working sled dog, skijorer, and running companion and was on a low fat die prior to the diabetes due to a severe bout with pancreatitus. Currently he is able to do little more that eat, drink, and sleep and appears to be in distress most of the time. Suggestions?

[Ramona72]

You know the heads of those huge companies only have six homes, four yachts, two jets, right? Poor things. They’ve got to get those homepathic pellets off the market so they can get more stuff!

[Anonymous]

I had been using various Merrick grain free and canned Tripett, but now I’ve moved on to Weruva Human Style. It’s excellent. Human grade meats, free range, no hormones, etc. I was buying it locally but it was really expensive. I’ve found it on Amazon considerably cheaper with free shipping. They have kibble in the morning (Brothers, Acana grain free) topped with canned Weruva. One can split amongst three dogs. Dinner is Darwins raw. They love it all and seem to be thriving.