[Bobby dog]

Hi Tracy:
All of the food recommendations you have received are excellent choices, raw and kibble! Hopefully you can find one that works.

I just have one suggestion for you. I understand budget requirements and even though NV raw might not be in your budget right now as a main diet I would like to suggest maybe try feeding it on a rotational basis. I feed my dog kibble with canned, lightly cooked fresh meat, or commercial dehydrated/freeze dried/frozen raw food for each meal. Most of the time the raw he gets is used as a topper in place of canned food rather than an entire meal of raw (budget issues, lol). I try to feed raw weekly; sometimes more often sometimes not. Regardless of how often I feed raw, he does love it and I believe the variety is good for him.

Check out NV’s website. If you sign up for news letters they send out monthly coupons for their products. Most of the time it’s for their frozen raw. I buy small bags and feed it to both my dog and cats. Check out Darwins too as InkedMarie suggested. I have not fed that brand, but it is recommended by many posters on DFA.

[Dori]

Hi Barbara O. What kibble is your friend feeding as well as the Primal Raw? What is the name of the disease your friends dog has? Very sad. Also what foods would be considered hot and which cool? Should a dog with multiple food allergies and intolerances be eating cool foods or the hot foods? Thank you.

[Barbara O]

Yes…you can feed Primal with just about anything…And…I think the large animal feed is mostly the size of the biscuit…look at the back of the package and compare the medium/large size analysis…I think they’re the same…I know for little dogs, the bites are much smaller…like a cat’s size. My friend mixes her Duck Primal with her kibble…her dog is on medication which is costly…prone to seizures, etc…and this food has given her a 2nd life…much more energy, walks twice a day…and is ready to go, even our AZ heat….

Oh…I also feed Nature’s Instinct raw food, as well. The reason I stick with the Primal for Toby is due to the veggies in it…he won’t eat fruit or veggies…so I sneak them into his diet this way…You can find Natural Instinct frozen, when you cannot find the Primal.. I bought it in my home town in Texas, but they didn’t have Primal…and it’s very good…so don’t be afraid to feed it…you can probably feed a little frozen mixed veggies…you dog will pass the corn whole but the other veggies will be mostly digested…you can feed a little apple, also. My vet has had me add cottage cheese…don’t go overboard and plain Greek Yogurt……as well as Kefir…plain…this will help with digestion,.

[Barbara O]

If you’ll read, I believe they have a digestive enzyme…I feed twice a day also…but I either add in the AM or the PM….He gets his salmon oil in the mornings…I usually give him his glucosamine in the evening…I was giving him Costco pills but he would spit them out so I ordered the dog liquid from Vita Cost…then I discovered I could put the two pills in a jigger of water and they would be completely dissolved by the time I fed…

I rotate my brands….but I always feed grain free to all my animals…including my cats…I have a Maine coon cat and a Savannah…which is a cross between an African cat and a domestic cat…They also get canned food and some Primal..I don’t feed Primal to Roger all the time…because he gets raw bones…If he didn’t get these, he would get some Primal every day…remember, his cousin, the wolf, eats raw meat every day…I’m at work right now but I’ll look at the digestive enzyme I have at home…Toby, my genet, had a case of pancreatitis at Christmas, and I started him on the enzymes after he recovered…I’ll get the name…

I feed the canned Costco no grain dog food mixed in with the kibble, also. It gets a 5…Natural Instinct is wonderful…I fed the grain free by Merrick…can’t think of the name, and he really liked it. I’m feeding a grain free now and I won’t buy it again, but I bought it in a pinch…maybe called Natural Balance…really having to boost it with meat. Tomorrow I will pick up a bag of Costco Grain free salmon….To this I add an egg at each feeding…the perfect protein for both man and beast….I haven’t fed this…my vet said to be careful feeding chicken…you will need to add fat to it…So if I buy Costco, I’ll just buy the salmon or beef grain free and add more protein…since it is a plant based feed…The vet said it is a good feed, though…better than most and very budget friendly…of course, I spend the difference on the things I add…I like Taste of the Wild….it is a 4 and is plant based, though many of the vets here love it…and Danes need to keep watch on the protein due to their size and joints…they grow awfully fast, and Roger is about a year old. He has never had a problem with me just switching brands..no stomach upsets, etc…Just use common sense and ask yourself, would I want someone to switch my diet around all the time? I’ve been taking in orphan animals, raising wildlife, doing wildlife rehab work since I was about 16 or 17, and that’s a long, long time. If I ever learn how to post pictures on this site, will send some before and after pics of the Danes I’ve rescued…and will send a pic of the fennecs and our little Tasmanian monster, Toby the genet.

[Dori]

Wow Barbara O. Very impressive background you have. Love all the different animals you have been able to help also. My question is what digestive enzyme do you add to Primal Raw (I also feed Primal Raw to my three dogs)? How often do you add it to their meals? I feed them twice a day. Do you feed any other commercial raw diets to your dogs and do you rotate your proteins as well as brands? Thanks.

[InkedMarie]

Tracy, if you want to feed raw, look at Darwins.

[Barbara O]

I got several posts on the subject of Primal..I feed the Primal frozen…It is raw meat and veggies…with supplements added. It is manufactured in a facility that passes inspection for human food manufacture…The product is wonderful. I have a small spotted genet that eats it daily. I have mixed it in cat kibble and dog kibble…My friend has a dog that is very picky and it is a big dog…she mixes the duck with the kibble and the dog eats it like candy… I travel with it frozen. If you order it frozen…order as much as you can afford…that way the shipping will be cheaper. Check your local feed stores…those that carry dog and cat food…Also…check with any of your pet shops. I’ve found it in odd places when we travel. When they ship it, it is packed in dry ice…I order organic, grass fed beef for my husband and me and it is shipped from the midwest to hot Arizona in July…always comes completely frozen…ready for my freezer. By adding the Primal to the diet, you are assured of getting everything your animal needs…and you can add your own fruits and veggies to the food…I am assured the kibble, even if it is plant based, meets my Dane’s and genet’s needs…and they both are shiny and healthy. Have been raising and caring for animals longer than many of you have been alive…have a heavy background in animal nutrition in my undergraduate degree plus a few vet courses under my belt as well as human food chemistry courses…have tried to stay up with the research…Don’t believe everything your vet tells you…any vet that tells me how good Science Diet is, I run away from….Am fortunate I have a vet that has taken care of all my exotics and will call over the US getting answers to questions we might both have…have raised raccoon, ring tails, Fennec foxes…had some of the oldest in captivity…due to diligence in diet….both were spoiled pets….a animal fed a well balanced diet with added good oils and digestive enzymes, etc., is one who’s immune system is going to keep them healthy….Remember…corn, wheat and soy are not good for dogs…and raw bones to gnaw on are a blessing…cleans teeth and gives them B vitamins they need….They don’t have people stomachs…they have a straight tube so don’t give them too much variety at a time….They are a carnivore….not a cow…they have teeth for tearing…not for grinding…And….when the diet is high in protein and low in carbohydrate, the back yard is much easier to clean…

[cindy q]

Zach, I couldn’t find any frozen primal on Wag.com only freeze dried? Also does anyone know if its ok to mix raw (primal) with kibble? Someone who sells raw gave me paper work on raw and it said not to mix raw and kibble because they digest them differently.

[Tracy W]

I am incredibly frustrated. 🙁

I was looking into Nature’s Variety, but their raw is too expensive for me right now. Maybe I can give it a try if next year goes better – I’ve heard good things about it.

I will look into Victor Yukon River. I haven’t heard of that one!

Thanks for all the help. If anyone else has any recommendations, please let me know.

Also, does sweet potato negatively affect dogs prone to yeast infections?

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Tracy W.

[Dori]

LOL Cyndi. You probably scared the crap out of Bailey and yourself. It took me awhile with Katie to realize that once in a while all dogs will scratch a regular old itch. I took would yell “Stop It” whenever I would see her scratch and would start checking her skin for any redness. I swear she used to look at me like I’d gone out of my friggin mind. So happy to hear that it WAS the detergent. Dumb vet would have continued to badger you about raw feeding. Glad to hear you got the help you needed here to prove the vet wrong before you did something drastic like go back to kibble. Vets can be awfully stubborn. As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, my vets all know I feed raw and have been doing so for a couple of years of more so they can’t play the game of blaming anything on their diets. I feel bad for anyone who is knew to raw and their vets blame the raw food and so they go back to kibble when all along the poor dog’s issue had nothing to do with its diet. I wish vets to get with the raw program already and get over themselves. I mean what? So they took nutrition class for all of about two minutes? For that they expect us to go along with whatever they say just cause they’ve got Dr. in from of their name. Uh Oh! I fear I may be starting to go on a rant here so I’ll stop and just say Yey for Cyndi and Bailey. :>)

[Deborah M]

On paper, Fromm’s is definitely an above average food. That’s why I tried it for my two Shih Tzus. But, sadly, they wouldn’t eat it. I’ve tried so many “five star” dry foods and the reaction I got with just about every thing I tried would go something like this….: They anxiously wait for me to put the bowls down, they stand in front of the bowl, give it an unenthusiastic sniff and walk away with sad eyes as if I’ve just given them cardboard or something. I would come home after work, and food wouldn’t be touched. Orijen is one dry that they will eat, but only sometimes. I recently switched them over to K9 Natural (freeze dried raw) – venison and occasionally add in some of the Green Tripe. OMG!!! – you would think they died and went to heaven. In two years, I’ve never seen them attack their food like this … like actual REAL dogs. It’s expensive, but soooo worth it. Since mine are small, the expense isn’t as much a factor. I do feel bad for those with large breeds who want to go the raw route because it IS expensive, but I am factoring in how much money I’ve wasted in the last two years with failed trial and error. I order on-line … it’s less expensive.

[crazy4cats]

Hi CW-
Wow! This is a frustrating situation. I have two golden labs. They ate anything and everything up until a few months ago. One has decided to be a little bit picky. He likes to have something mixed in with his kibble. I mix either canned or fresh foods in and he eats it right up. For fresh, I rotate between eggs, sardines and frozen raw. He will not eat the Honest Kitchen Turkey flavor any longer. The other pup, who tends to be a little bit chubby still eats anything. He is glad to eat whatever the other one doesn’t! LOL!

I received a sample of Now Fresh large breed dog food a while back and the kibble was very large. They are a very good company if you want to try giving a larger size kibble a shot.

I fed the Royal Canin Vet food for a short while when they were pups due to stomach issues, and you are right, crazy expensive!!!

Good luck to you!

[Zach M]

Should i go with pronto or go with the frozen raw nuggets? From my understanding they are practically the same. What do you guys think?

[Tracy W]

I have a 3-year-old Husky named Cookie who struggles with food and environmental allergies and yeast infections in her ears. I have tried her on all sorts of different foods, and I’ve found she reacts negatively to beef, bison, lamb, and chicken. She did very well on Grandma Mae’s Country Naturals Farmhouse Blend (which is pork and fish based), and she also did well on Holistic Select Duck and Holistic Select Sardine & Anchovy, and Lincoln Biotech’s Zinpro (expensive!!!!!). The problem is, she doesn’t like any of those foods very much. In fact, my mother-in-law and husband feed their dogs beneful, and Cookie LOVES it, although it doesn’t agree with her. She even likes my chinchilla’s food, but doesn’t like her own. :-/

I guess I’m wondering if anyone has any recommendations of foods to try for her that won’t break the bank? I’d consider doing raw if 1) I knew how to source it affordably and 2) I knew she would still be fed raw when I go out of state.

Some of the kibbles that don’t work include:
Wellness Super5
All of the TotW
Nutro LI Venison
California Naturals, with grain
Exclusive
Precise, both chicken and lamb
Verus opticoat
Earthborn Holistic, various recipes including the potato-free ones
Merrick – she did OK on it but there was fur in the duck-based kibble. Fur? Really? They make ducks with fur now? And Merrick told me it was natural. :-/
Whole Earth Farms
Diamond Naturals
NutriSource

I was considering The Honest Kitchen’s Keen, but I’m concerned about the potatoes, and I have nowhere to get it locally. Does anyone have any suggestions?

• This topic was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Tracy W.

[Kritterlady]

Interesting. I have had good dealings both with knowledgable reps in Petsmart as well as on the phone with the company. While I hear all kinds of whispers in the shadows about the food, I have had great results with it of and on over 5yrs. Several of my friends use it with no problems though like Donald there are some dogs that can’t use all formulas. The company assured me on the phone about sourcing and where the food is made. Though I am more of a home sourced raw feeder, I will continue to feed blue on occasion to my dogs as well as to my 12 rescued barn cats.

[pugmomsandy]

You could offer a variety of foods but might want to buy the medium sized bags so they are used up in a good amount of time. Offer the foods she has liked for a couple of meals in between the Primal or sprinkle the Primal on top of the other foods. Instinct has freeze dried powder (Raw Boost product) that is conveniently already in sprinkle form in a canister. I like to finish an open bag of kibble by two months. I’ve actually never kept track of it, but I have several fosters and use about 10 cups of kibble per day and large bags have around 100-120 cups and I’ll have 2 or 3 different foods open at once.

[Dori]

Nancy C. Your quite welcome. I’m always thrilled when there’s a possibility of a new quality food we can feed our dogs. As you remember, I feed raw to all my girls but sometimes it would be nice to be out of the house and not have to panic to get home for their p.m. meal. Hubby doesn’t thrill to the idea of having to handle raw food. He doesn’t mind the dehydrated that he just has to add water and wait the appropriate time but that’s pretty much his contribution to feeding time dogs and humans alike.

Don’t know when Mike will get to review this food but maybe some of the others will chime in.

[Nancy C]

Hey – Thank you. This is Nancy C. I was inquiring bec a highly regarded Homeopathic Vet recommends DARWIN and Bid Dog Natural food for those people who are not going to feed raw implemented with the extra nutrients which he lists on his website. The homeopathic vet is very meticulous, but I could not figure out WHY it is not reviewed here.
Thank you!

[Dori]

Cyndi, it sounds to me like it would have been the soap. I have terrible allergies myself and can’t use any detergent that has dyes, fragrance etc. Even my friends and family know that when I’m coming to visit they keep All or Tide Free on hand and wash towels and sheets for me for my stay. I think your vet, being put off on a raw diet, is just being a nay sayer. Obviously she herself does not suffer from allergies or she would know that it probably was the detergent. Gain is really fragrance driven and was probably (hopefully–fingers, eyes, and toes crossed) the culprit. It’ll take a little bit but I bet her hair does start to grow back pretty soon. :>)

Oh! Knock on wood too!

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Dori.

[Cyndi]

Another Update: The vet just called and all of Bailey’s bloodwork for her thyroid came back normal. I told her I think I had the problem figured out and told her about the laundry soap, she says “I doubt that’s it, I still think it’s something diet related”. Damn her anyway! Why can’t vets get on board with raw diets!?! My dog is obviously healthy other than the current problem! I pray to god her hair starts growing back now and all this problem was because of the laundry soap. I need to find a good vet!!

[Kritterlady]

Donald S, i can tell you what’s causing the lawsuit. A close friend of mine manages a large Petsmart and blue Buffalo is killing the other name brands in sales! It is the number one selling product in Petsmart nationally and the other brands are green with jealousy at this upstart brand. While like many here I feed primarily raw, I do rotate and sometimes add blue wilderness. Ask a competitor rep about blue an you will get tons of misinformation and lies about it. Ask the blue rep about the others an they say nothing negative about the others. A company that has to rely on lawsuits and lies about its competitors is not worth my dime. Good for blue buffalo for fighting this out loud. People are getting educated about what’s in pet food thanks to this site and others And at the retail level there is a shift in what people will put up with even from established brands.

[Dori]

Lisa. What protein of the NV Instinct Raw did you use? You did get the Instinct correct? NV also makes a couple of other formulas but those contain grains.

How long did you feed Chewy the small bag that you had? How many meals? Are you feeding Chewy twice a day and how much at a time? Are you just eye balling it or are you measuring the food? Don’t forget that feeding raw the amount is less than kibble. Too much food per meal will also cause vomitting, diarrhea, digestive issues.

I can’t quite remember but I thought we were all thinking that he might be having an issue with chicken. If he was then I wouldn’t feed turkey or any poultry whatsoever. Initially I was feeding chicken free to Katie and couldn’t figure out why she was still sick even though I was being told that just cause she had issues with chicken didn’t mean it would be the same with other fowl or chicken fat, chicken flavor etc. Well, it turned out that once I removed all grains, soy and all fowl, the issue resolved itself within a couple of weeks or so.

[Janine v]

With Orijen my dogs had lot of tartar build up. Extremly.
Both chihuahua’s and cats.
Before with bad dry food, white clean teeth 🙁

In november I had one dog clean his teeth by the vet, but already, tartar build up 🙁

I clean his teeth daily now, and changed his food. Don’t want to do anasthesia again 🙁

My cats, can’t clean there teeth, they don’t allow it. Had 2 cats that needed there teeth cleaned by the vet. 🙁 Before I fed Orijen, White clean teeth.

Is there any good dry food, what helps clean there teeth? Because I really don’t like it when they need anasthesia. Raw is not an option, they don’t eat it or get horrible diarrea. 🙁

[Lisa C]

Hi sue…
I have put off commenting because I feel so defeated. Chewy still vomited on the NV raw, but I may have not given enough to him to test if it really worked. He only had a small bags worth. I don’t know how long he has to be on something to see if it really works. Lately he has been on a canned Nutro “limited ingredient” for a week and still vomits on it, but it’s to tide him over until we can get him into a 2nd vet (money is limited right now unfortunately) but we are planning to go within the next 1-2 weeks. All his poos have been normal, luckily. We tried Honest Kitchen Veal, the really expensive $60 box and he wouldn’t even go near it. Our original vet wants him back on RX, but I don’t see the point if it never helped. These are some results from his last bloodwork:

“the lipase, one of the two pancreatic enzymes, is slightly elevated so recommend feeding the prescription intestinal diet as already planned to help control any pancreatic inflammation that may occur with feeding other fat sources”

[Susan]

Hi Lisa How is Chewy going on his new food, NV Instanct raw, has the vomiting stop & is he pooing normal now??

[Heather D]

Hi, sorry me again. I have been onto the shop’s website and come across this food and wonder if this would be better than the Eukanuba. I have done the translation,

BREEDERS high end food for Large Breed Puppies.

Our breeders think is the only one with 100% ingredients fit for human consumption. It is a complete food for dogs 0-12 months old.

Most products are manufactured feed waste, what remains once have separated parts fit for human consumption. These ingredients have a lower quality.

Some feed ingredients, incorporate suitable for people, but Breeders is the only manufactured in Spain than it does on 100% of its composition. 100% premium ingredients . No features or use GM products.

“Breeders” is a brand sold exclusively at TiendAnimal, which offers a high-end feed at a very affordable price (up to half that of conventional brands). See for yourself our quality and you will be convinced.

Puppy food super premium quality at a super low price. This is because the direct sales allows us to avoid marketing costs, marketing and advertising that make up a large percentage of the feed costs of early brand names.

BREEDERS Cubs is a complete dry feed, in the form of extruded, balanced and very tasty dry kibble, made ​​from selected raw materials of high quality. Breeders is a food like no other approaches to what the animal would eat in your state natural.

It satisfies the needs of large breed puppies thanks to the extra size of your kibble as well as pregnant females or nursing. They think that a dog is puppy until it meets its first year of life , although in large breeds this time can be extended up to 6 months, even up to 2 years in giant breeds.

Key Benefits

Selected natural ingredients, origin certificate
High digestibility and energy efficient
Adequate protein and fat
Optimum calcium-phosphorus
High in DHA
Health skin and hair, thanks to the perfect balance of Omega 6 and Omega 3.
Promotes optimal growth, thanks to Natural chondroprotective

High digestibility. During the growth phase, the puppy’s digestive system is less developed than the adult dog. It is therefore important that the feed is especially easy to digest.

High in protein and fat. cub experiences a very rapid growth, stabilizing circa life. At that time multiplied 40 to 50 times their birth weight. To achieve this feat, you need a very rich in protein and easy energy to metabolize food.

DHA
DHA: docosahexaenoic acid
Optimal calcium-phosphorus ratio. Indispensable to form a healthy skeleton able to sustain the growing weight of the puppy.

High content of DHA. docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is important in the formation of the nervous system, particularly the brain. The brain content of DHA is related to learning ability and intelligence level of newborns and infants. It has been suggested the need to supplement with DHA the mother during the gestational period, and even before this, to ensure the supply to the normal development of the fetal brain. Evidence related to the greater learning ability of offspring from mothers previously supplemented with DHA.

High in Omega 3. Adequate ratio of Omega 3 and 6 helps maintain a healthy coat, reduces skin irritation and enhances the development of immune function.

Breeders not stored in silos , but goes directly by packaging as production. Thus contamination by mites (causing many food allergies) and quality loss are avoided.

BREEDERS is an exclusive brand of Tiendanimal.

I Breeders Cubs 2

Features

Ingredients : Dehydrated chicken meat (35%), rice, chicken fat, corn, concentradp vegetable protein, hydrolyzed and dehydrated meat chicken, apple pulp, salmon oil, dried yeast, yucca extract, potassium chloride, chloride sodium.

Additives

Vitamin A 16,000 IU / KG
Vitamin D3 1600 IU / KG
Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) 200mg/kg
Cu (copper sulfate pentahydrate) 23 mg / kg
Trace elements:

Fe (iron sulfate heptahydrate): 200 mg / Kg, I (potassium iodide): 1.5 mg / kg, Co (cobalt sulfate pentahydrate): 1 mg / kg, Mn (manganese sulfate monohydrate) 70 mg / kg, Zn (oxide Zinc): 225 mg / kg, Se (sodium selenite): 0.4 mg / kg

Preserved with EC additives (potassium sorbate). With natural antioxidants (citric acid, rosemary extract and natural tocopherols (source of vitamin E).

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude protein 30%
Crude fat 14%
Crude fiber 2.5%
Crude ash 9%
Calcium 1.2%
Phosphorus 0.8%
Moisture 10%
Glucosamine 600 mg / kg
Approx kibble: 1.5 cm x 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm.

Use

Serve dry food guided by the table of recommended daily allowance. It is better to split the corresponding ration in two servings a day. These amounts are only for guidance, so they must then meet the energy needs of the animal, guided by the maintenance of optimal body weight. Always leave fresh clean water available to the animal.

Recommended daily

45 kg (adult weight) 60 kg (adult weight) 70 kg (adult weight) 90 kg (adult weight) 100 kg (adult weight)
2 months (old puppy) 320 gr 410 gr 450 gr 510 gr 540 gr
3 months (old puppy) 420 gr 520 gr 590 gr 670 gr 720 gr
4 months (old puppy) 460 gr 570 gr 660 gr 740 gr 790 gr
5 months (old puppy) 550 gr 660 gr 780 gr 880 gr 960 gr
6 months (old puppy) 620 gr 750 gr 880 gr 995 gr 1080 gr
7 months (old puppy) 620 gr 750 gr 890 gr 1020 gr 1100 gr
8 months (old puppy) 610 gr 750 gr 890 gr 1020 gr 1100 gr
9 months (old puppy) 590 gr 740 gr 870 gr 1010 gr 1080 gr
10-11 months (old puppy) 580 gr 720 gr 860 gr 995 gr 1070 gr
12-13 months (old puppy) 580 gr 710 gr 840 gr 980 gr 1060 gr
14-17 months (old puppy) 580 gr 700 gr 820 gr 960 gr 1040 gr
18-23 Months (old puppy) 560 gr 690 gr 820 gr 950 gr 1030 gr
24 months (old puppy) 560 gr 690 gr 820 gr 940 gr 1030 gr

[Sharon Buchanan]

Desiree,

The values for BUN are different in raw fed dogs. While your dog’s BUN does seem high, his Creatinine is low normal. Most conventional vets aren’t aware of the different values – I had to share the correct values with two of the vets at the clinic I go to. Here is a great article that explains three values that will be different:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/normal-blood-values-and-raw-fed-dogs/ At their site, they also have a series of free raw feeding videos that should help you keep him on track and you can search their articles for natural ways to address his BUN value.

Since he doesn’t have teeth, you can help supplement his calcium with whole raw eggs. Just crush the shell with the back of a spoon so that the shell is essentially little flat pieces, not totally pulverized. I would also try chicken backs and ribs. I would begin with cutting away the spine and just give him the soft smaller bones. Once his gums have toughened up a bit he might be able to gnaw the spine and neck in order to get his 10% bone.

A proper raw diet consists of 80% protein (heart is considered a protein, not an organ), 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs – pancreas, spleen, testicles, kidneys… Except that you might be trying to feed a raw diet based on AAFCO guidelines for commercial food, I don’t know why you’re adding greens and veggies at this point. Are there other issues besides the elevated BUN? Have you been feeding greens and veggies for the entire six months? I would definitely add a digestive enzyme supplement to his diet, probiotics won’t hurt as well. Mercola makes supplements that I and many others have had good success with.

Dogs Naturally Magazine will be hosting their second weekend-long internet conference in the Fall. They have a Facebook page that, if you “Like”, will keep you up-to-date and let you know when you can sign up. I attended the first one at the end of January and will be signing up for this one as well. Additionally, you’ll then have access to a private group of like-minded owners, nutritionists and homeopaths who all respond to concerns just like yours with personal experience as well as professional opinion.

[Cyndi]

I don’t know about what calcium and protein levels you need to look for, hopefully someone else can answer that. If you can’t find any food from that list, then keep Max on the Eukanuba, and you can include fresh foods to add to it, like eggs, or tinned sardines (or fresh) in water not oil, or plain yogurt. There are alot of foods worse than Eukanuba, so you are doing ok. You could always use fresh meat or poultry, cooked or raw, to make his meals healthier as well.

& Just so you know, just about everyone that posts here is from a different time zone. We are all from different states, some from different countries. I live in Ohio, USA and it is currently 12:51pm here. There are some people from across the country and some from Australia, so it all depends what time you post, who’s on here at the time and who sees your post. The majority of us on here don’t “ignore” people. We are all friendly and enjoy helping people out when we can. 🙂

[Heather D]

Cyndi, what a lovely friendly reply, thank you. Yes I will keep him on the dry and cooked turkey, though the cooked turkey is receiving all his attention and the dry none haha.
I worry for him as he is from a large breed and this early feeding is of great importance.
We are going to the pet store tomorrow. I will take the list I have printed from here and see if any of it is available, though looking at their website none seems to be.
http://www.tiendanimal.es/?gclid=CO-g1t2F-r8CFU7MtAodqH0AVQ of course it is in Spanish but my computer translates for me.
They have very little in the way of tinned food.
The last time we went I did notice some very expensive, more than the 47euros, we pay fo the Eukanuba, and was drawn to it as it said free range chicken, wild salmon and free range eggs. I cannot remember whether it had any grain in as I wasn’t aware that grain was a problem.
If it is rice, is that ok?
As it is one hec of a journey to this pet store, we live way in the mountains, then I would like to buy there and then.
With this in mind should I look for high protein, low calcium lenels and low calories, this would help me maybe more than brand.
Thank you.

[USA]

Ladies,

I believe that the Sulfides in Garlic, Onions, Leeks, Chives, etc in ANY AMOUNT have an effect on the red blood cells of cats and dogs. I think that at a low exposure the effects are sub-clinical meaning there are no signs of toxicity. But I do believe that the red blood cells are affected at any level of consumption.

I know there is plenty of information out there to support both sides of this debate and I know that plenty of people use garlic for fleas and as a spice in their dog’s food.

I have a dog whose red blood cells are affected by any amount of garlic. She is a rare example of a dog that shows clinical signs of red blood cell damage at any level of consumption. I know she is VERY sensitive to the effects of garlic but her experience has led me down the path of believing that although most dogs are not as sensitive as her that ALL dogs red blood cells are affected by Sulfide ingestion.

So I have provided a couple of links. 1 agrees with me and 1 says that the toxicity of garlic is not affected by cooking.

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/06/the-dangers-of-onion-toxicity/

“The organosulfoxides (sulfurs) in onions, garlic, leeks and chives react with the cell membranes of the red blood cells of dogs, causing the cells to lyse (explode). Cats are even more sensitive to the lytic effects of allium (onion family) toxicosis than dogs.

It is a common myth that a small amount of onions or garlic is not harmful to dogs. In fact, many homemade dog treat recipes include garlic powder as a flavoring because dogs tend to love it so much. Dogs are more tolerant of garlic than onions, and small amounts of either often do not produce effects that are noticed.

However, I believe that any amount of garlic or onions is unacceptable, because it always causes damage on a cellular level, whether or not we notice the effects of the damage and label it “toxic.”

A small amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause a small amount of subclinical hemolysis. That is, a small amount will cause a small amount of red blood cell explosion. Dogs need their red blood cells to oxygenate their brains and other important organs.

A moderate amount of garlic or onion ingestion will probably cause your pet to feel light headed and lethargic, which may go unnoticed.

A large amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause clinical signs that are felt by the dog and noticed by the people. Signs may take several days to develop.”

Regarding cooking:

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/toxicology/a/onion-toxicity.htm

“The chemicals found in cooked, raw or dehydrated onions begin reacting with a dog’s metabolism soon after consumption, preventing the red blood cells from carrying oxygen to the body. Within a few hours, the patient becomes lethargic and has trouble breathing. Other clinical signs may include dark-colored urine or a yellowing of the gums (called icterus). The patient may also vomit up the onions or other foods consumed from the trash.”

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Erin –

You aren’t going to see any dental benefit from feeding ground raw. If you’re interested in feeding raw meaty bones, the mechanical chewing action will aid in keeping the teeth cleaner to a certain degree. However, the only way to ensure optimal dental health is to actually brush your dogs teeth – this should be done at least three times a week.

Price will vary greatly and will depend on which protein source you feed, which cut you feed, quality (grass fed vs. conventional), purchase quantity and your location. I purchase items in bulk from a distributor that supplies grocery stores and restaurants and get things like chicken backs (~$0.30/lb.), turkey necks (~$0.60/lb), chicken hearts & gizzards ($0.80/lb), turkey hearts & gizzards ($0.90/lb.), pork hearts ($0.90/lb), beef hearts ($1.30/lb), etc. etc. All my items come in 15 to 50 lb. cases and I have to order a minimum of 300 lbs. at a time. Purchasing meat at the grocery store would be much more expensive.

If you wanted to work in a little raw for the dental benefits you would be safe feeding a a raw meaty bone a few times a week in addition to the kibble without throwing anything off balance (you’d just want to make sure to feed a little less kibble on those days to account for the calories in the raw meaty bone). Larger dogs do well with chicken leg quarters, chicken backs, turkey necks and pork necks. Smaller dogs do well with chicken wings and necks.

If you want to start feeding 50% raw you’ll need to be sure it’s balanced. I’d suggest checking out the book “Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet” by Steve Brown – it includes easy to prepare balanced recipes. You could also use a pre-mix – my favorite is See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mix (formulated by the author of the aforementioned book). I like it because it’s reasonably priced and doesn’t add in large amounts of fruits/veggies/etc. like some other mixes do so I have the freedom to customize it more to my preferences.

You may also find some useful information on the raw diet threads: /forums/forum/raw-dog-food-forum/

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Erin T]

I currently feed my four dogs (20 lbs – 60 lbs) Earthborn Holistic’s Primitive Natural formula, which I’ve been very happy with and receives Dog Food Advisor’s five star rating. I’m having some concern about tartar build up, and have always been interested in feeding raw. I’m concerned about the correct balance of nutrients, so I’m thinking I would like to start with 50/50 kibble/raw.

My question is, speaking purely of meat, what is an average price per pound, and what cuts/protein sources are you feeding? Cost is a big issue for me! I get my kibble at cost, so I spend about $80/month on it. Based on the needs of my crew, raw meat would have to be $.50/pound to match the price of kibble (of course, I could spend a bit more). I’m going to go down to the butcher shop in a day or two and inquire about different prices and cuts, but right now just trying to figure out if it’s feasible to do this.

I’m a raw NOVICE, by the way, so any advice is appreciated!

[Melissaandcrew]

Hi Johnny. I have owned Schwartz for over 20 yrs and to date have never had a problem with stones. I feed higher quality kibble raw dehydrated etc. Avoid carp foods with lots of fillers dyes and chemic as last. They are more prone to pancreatitis so use caution with high fat foods.

[Svetlana H]

We just purchased Texas Tripe dog food and my Anatolians are not interested at all. Don’t even go to their dishes. I will give it away if anybody wants it. 60+ pounds of beef, chicken, turkey and goat (all frozen in 2lb packages). I checked their feedback, nobody seems to have any problems, maybe my puppies are spoiled. We are in Tomball tx close to Houston. Please let me know.

[Katy L]

Sorry for my absence. Up to my elbows in laundry. I am SO excited to think this may be the culprit. It makes perfect sense now. I cannot tell you how much Sophia has suffered – not to mention the amount of money we’ve spent, tests done, raw food shipped in and frustration.

I have run Sophia’s laundry though the wash twice now, with vinegar rinse and can still smell the Gain on them. One more time ought to do it 🙂

Cyndi, what a stroke of luck you mentioned the Gain!

Have a good rest everyone. I’m off to fold some clothes.

[Katy L]

This is my first post on this forum – I do a lot of lurking. Sophia is an Airedale mix rescue (10 yrs old this month). You really struck a chord when you mentioned the Gain with Lavender. Sophia broke out in what looked like hives – but she had been having other skin issues and eventually was diagnosed with Hypothyroidism. Well, in the mean while, my husband broke out in rashes that looked almost like psoriasis (a few months after). I thought my husband was breaking out because of the stress from Sophia as we weren’t sleeping at night and were trying to keep her from chewing herself to bits when we were awake. It was stressful. A friend had given me a bottle of All Free laundry detergent that she didn’t care for and I used it . Sophia and my husband BOTH cleared up! However, I still hadn’t put all the facts together because We had started Sophia on medication, raw diet, bathing twice a week, etc. Husband’s rash was cleared up with topical cream. About a month ago, I wanted to use up the rest of the Gain and guess what? Sophia is broken out in hives and losing her hair. I cannot believe I didn’t figure this out until now! I feel like an idiot! Let me go throw out the remainder of the Gain and head to the store for some All Free and White vinegar (rinse).
This is a very abbreviated version of events but would be really interested to see how Bailey does when you re-wash the laundry. It sounds like Bailey is in great hands 🙂

[FreeholdHound]

Just gave Harry his 1st chicken back for dinner (frozen). He gave me his usual WTH look but was quickly chomping away. This is my chicken experiment as I have avoided it except for the feet as a treat. Reel Raw had them so I gave it a shot. As far as the rest of my order I noticed right off the bat that the duck necks were quite a bit smaller than what I usually get from Hare Today. I also ordered the beef grind & the beef kneecaps. I haven’t tried those yet.

[DogFoodie]

Oh geez!!

Thank you USA! And, thank you so much Tabitha, for sharing your calculator. This was a very timely post.

I was just contemplating decreasing the amount of kibble I feed Sam and increasing the amount of canned. The only raw he likes is tripe. (I was also wondering about the amount of fat in that, but wouldn’t feed it regularly anyway because of the organs in the MPC Tripe Supermix). But, obviously more canned is not a good idea.

I just picked up a case of the Nature’s Domain Turkey and Pea Stew, so I’ll just dole that out sparingly as usual and figure out a way to “make” him like the raw toppers.

FWIW, the numbers on the Kirkland were worse than the Nature’s Variety with protein at 31.4%, fat at 60.6% and 7.9% fiber.

Edit: Actually, I just realized I had the numbers flipped. I was having trouble toggling back and forth and the Kirkland was the 36.6/58.8/4.6 and the NVI LID Duck was 31.4/60.6/7.9.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by DogFoodie.

[USA]

Here are the numbers for boneless skinless raw chicken breast when run through the calculator

Crude Protein 23%
Crude Fat 1%
Crude Fiber 0%
Moisture 75%
Ash 1%

Nutrients on Calorie Basis
Total Protein 89.9%
Total Fat 10.1%
Total Carbohydrate 0.0%

As you can see the numbers for a high moisture, high protein, low fat meat will NOT have a super high fat content. So it is unrelated to “the difference between the calorie basis versus dry matter basis.” The high fat is only related to the fat content of the meat they use in canned products.

[Dori]

I feed my three toy dogs commercial raw diets. Very high protein, moderate fat and low carbs. My dogs weight 7 lbs., 6 lbs., and 5 lbs. If anything, I have problems keeping weight on them. They range in age from 5 years old to 15 years old. So to the question of what is the right amount of fat or protein, I don’t believe it’s a question that anyone other than the dog guardian can answer. Every dog is different. Every dog assimilates ingredients and levels differently. Protein in foods I feed my three little girls can range up to 54%, fat can at times hover around 36 – 38 %. I believe someone mentioned that it’s the quality of fats in a diet, not the actual percentage in the food. Same holds true for protein. Low carbs as I feed grain, potato, soy, etc. free. The only treats they get are organic small pieces of fruits or veggies.

No, I think whoever told you that a dog needs 1 gram of protein for every lb they weigh is incorrect. We would have an awful lot of emaciated dogs running around. Maybe someone with a better grasp on how many grams of protein to feed per pound will add some info.

I feed each of my dogs between 2 to 2.5% of their body weight per day. I use a kitchen scale and I feed them twice a day.

Hope something I’ve added helps.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Tabitha,

I tried it for a couple of canned foods and I used a number of 3% for the ash and those numbers seemed right. If I left it at 8%, the numbers seemed very off and I ended up with a negative percent for carbs.

I had been wanting to figure out these numbers because my food intolerance dog has turned into my picky dog. There are some raw foods that he refuses to touch, but he loves canned food. I thought I’d start using a larger portion of canned, but still use it as a topper for kibble to keep things affordable.

Isn’t a canned food with protein at 36.6%, fat at 58.8% and fiber at 4.6% on a calorie basis way too high in fat? I’d never feed a kibble with that much fat.

I put in several different quality canned products that I have here and the numbers are similar.

Am I overlooking something?

[Melissaandcrew]

Like Sandy, when I make a batch of homemade, I make it in bulk, and feed most of it before moving on. Last night we made a chicken bone, beef heart, ground beef blend, with sweet potato and kale. Mixed berries for the veggie, and pork liver and kidney. This will be the main stay of the raw until gone, with other things mixed in from day to day-tripe, ground duck, turkey etc.

[Cyndi]

My dog threw up some pieces of bone a few times during the first few weeks of starting her on raw too. I think it’s just their digestive system getting used to the change.

[pugmomsandy]

You surely can repeat meals. Nothing wrong with that. You can feed one protein per week and then switch or one protein meal, up to you. Every meal does not have to be balanced. Just remember balance over time (and variety). I make a batch of food (about 30 lbs) and they almost eat all of it before I make another one that is different. But my dogs eat alot of other things as well – canned food, dehydrated food and some kibble, but they do get raw just about every day. Another thing to consider in the beginning is feeding one food for at least 3 – 4 weeks so you can watch for an allergy or intolerance to that particular food before offering a host of different flavors. For instance, test out the turkey and veggies for 3-4 weeks before introducing another formula. ZiwiPeak and K9 Natural are from New Zealand so you probably can find them.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[pugmomsandy]

There are raw foods with added minerals like Stella & chewy’s and Primal to name a few. Nature’s Variety’s chicken recipe has actually passed feeding trials so I would assume their other recipes are formulated similarly (but it’s just an assumption). Answers (Detailed) has a pork recipe. And fortunately, there are more protein choices as well for raw foods like rabbit, bison and goat. You should be able to find lamb and pork relatively easy. The book “Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats” also includes a recipe for a vitamin/mineral mix to make complete diets. Check out Hare-Today Gone Tomorrow and My Pet Carnivore for meat, organs, grinds and whole prey. A non-fish oil option for omega-3 is algae oil and calamari oil if he has a sensitivity to fish oil as well. There are some dehydrated or freeze-dried options as well like Grandma Lucy’s (not raw) and ZiwiPeak (air-dried).

[emma s]

Hi,

I am looking to switch my 3 year old border terrier to a raw diet
However I am concerned that I will not be able to ensure that he gets all the nutrients and minerals needed. He has been tested for food allergies and has had positive reactions for:

Chicken
Beef
Salmon
Venison
Soy
Cows Milk

With the lack of variety – will I be able to ensure that he has a healthy diet? Should I supplement his diet with other minerals that he will not get from certain meat proteins for example?

Thanks very much for your time

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Shelley –

You might find this thread helpful: /forums/topic/eating-raw-meaty-bones/

There’s some videos there of one of my dogs eating RMBs so you can get an idea of what’s normal.

[Barbara O]

I feed Primal chicken…only because it’s the only one Toby will eat…He has done exceedingly well on it..I’ve fed him Instinct frozen but Primal has some veggies in it…this is not a dog…this is a genet…My friend feeds the Duck Primal mixed into the kibble she feeds…it has made a great difference in the dog’s health…It has a rare disease and this food has prolonged the dog’s life…The medicine alone runs her about $200.00 a month…so she’s picky about what she feeds. I cannot say enough good about Primal…and Instinct also..I do Great Dane rescue and all dogs are different…The one I’ve adopted is a triple recessive…he will be prone to skin and hair disorders…so I’m trying to meet this head on…the other Danes I’ve had the past year loved raw veggies, raw bones and their kibble.The woofed their feed down, whereas Roger is a slow eater. Just use common horse sense with your dogs…Make sure they get enough fat as most foods limit this or use an inferior oil…salmon oil is best…they need the DHA…most oils are omega 6 that you find in their feed…just remember…eliminate wheat, soy and corn…these are inferior feeds for our domestic animals..they are carnivores, kin to wolves, and need animal protein…they are not kin to cows…which are omnivores….

[Shelley M]

Hi all, I am a new raw feeder (thanks to reading many many posts on this forum!) and so far my experience has been good…..with one exception……I am the owner of a “gulper” :-\

She is a 13wk old black mouth cur mix. LOVES food of any kind. Currently I am feeding a pre-mixed raw with the addition of RMB (the plan is to eventually switch to PMR and off pre mixed but for now this is what is comfortable for me…..one step at a time LOL)

My question is…exactly how much does she need to chew up the RMBs ? I have given her chicken necks a few times and she bites off chunks and swallows them (I try to hold on to slow her down but it’s not helping much). Even the larger turkey necks are still not chewed up , just bitten off and down the hatch). Are the bones digestible enough to be ok or…..???

Of course I am still in the “omg is this going to send us to the ER” stage so maybe I’m just being paranoid….

[T]

I just wanted to share this page on my website because I think it would be really helpful to a lot of people. If you’re like me, you get a headache after you stand in the aisle at the dog food store and try to do the math to compare canned food to raw food to dry food!

I put this simple calculator together so you can plug in the numbers from the guaranteed analysis on a dry food, get the % protein, fat, and carbs on a CALORIE basis. Then plug in the GA numbers from a canned food to get % on calorie basis so you can compare the dry food to canned food on a equivalent basis.

Check it out and let me know if you find any glitches or have questions.
http://naturalalternativesvet.com/label

Tabitha