[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

To get an avatar go to gravatar(dot)com.

Many people have different methods of rotational feeding. Some switch foods a few times a year, some switch after every bag, some have multiple foods at one time and switch with every meal and others stick with the same food and only rotate toppers (I personally don’t feel the rotating toppers only is the best method).

When I used to feed kibble I got a new brand with a different protein source after each bag and I always had a variety of canned and fresh food toppers on hand and rotated toppers daily. So for example my dog would get a lamb based kibble made by Brand X and after that bag was gone I’d get a chicken based kibble from Brand Y, etc. – all the while rotating canned toppers daily. Now that my dogs eat a homemade raw diet I’m able to feed them something completely different at each meal.

You really can rotate as often as you want – there’s no such thing as too much variety. Get a rotation plan going that works works for you and your dog. You could mix the trial bags you got in with the kibble you’re currently feeding or few a few meals of only the trial food until the bag is gone. Initially you may need to so slow transitions to get your dog accustomed to variety, however after a few switches you should be able to go from food to food without doing a gradual transition. I generally recommend, at the very least, having three go to foods (preferably from different manufacturers and with different protein sources).

[Sully’sMom]

Also, how do you get a picture onto your name 🙂
I can’t find it anywhere on update profile!

[Sully’sMom]

So I’ve seen this touched on, but need a little more in the way of specifics. In varying your dog’s food, which I’ve never done before, I’ve seen many say that they even rotate after every bag. Following some suggestions I’ve read here, I’ve gotten some samples from companies, and bought trial size bags of some premium foods (HINT* – petflow.com often offers trial size bags for a limited time of premium dog food for anywhere from $1 – $5 depending on the size). So I now have a 5lb bag of Nutrisca Chicken and Chickpea and 5lbs of Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost. Any suggestions on how best to incorporate a small quantity like these into a rotation?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

Nope, there’s nothing specific about excess fat that will cause developmental issues. Many veterinarians and breeders just tend to recommend lower fat foods because they generally have a lower calorie count per cup and they feel that it will be less likely that the dog will consume too many calories. However, as long as portion sizes are controlled it doesn’t pose an issue. My experience with my hounds has actually been that I have difficulty keeping weight on them – they tend to be on the thin side if anything, so for me it’s been really important to use more calorie-dense foods.

First off I would like to say that it is wonderful that your breeder is recommending the inclusion of fresh foods. Many breeders and veterinarians don’t recognize the importance of fresh foods. Fresh meat, plain yogurt and eggs are wonderful additions to dry kibble – they boost the protein levels and the species appropriateness. Adding eggs and boneless meat will also help to reduce the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the food as they’re high in phosphorus but low in calcium. Just be sure to keep the unbalanced extras to approximately 20% or less of the meal or you could skew the calcium to phosphorus ratio too much and potentially throw off the balance of the other nutrients in the food. Canned foods and dehydrated foods make great toppers too, if feeding a balanced canned or dehydrated food with appropriate calcium levels you can add as much as you want, if feeding a food with higher calcium levels or an unbalanced canned topper follow the 20% rule. Tripe makes an excellent topper – especially for large and giant breed puppies, the reason being that tripe has has a naturally balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio (1:1) but very low concentrations of both minerals (only about 0.3% if I recall correctly). So feeding tripe will dilute the overall calcium levels without the risk of throwing of the c:p ratio. When Gertie was a pup she ate THK and I generally fed her 4 C. THK + 1 can Tripett (canned green tripe) daily (and some fresh additions like eggs, plain yogurt and tinned sardines a few times a week). Mabel started right off on raw and ate raw green tripe as about 25% of her diet for the first 6 months to keep her calcium levels low. Another benefit to tripe (if you can get it raw) is that it’s loaded with probiotics and digestive enzymes.

I generally recommend not supplementing with vitamins (unless per veterinarian recommendation) for those feeding a balanced commercial food, however vitamin c and vitamin b are water soluble vitamins so they are not harmful in excess, if you wanted to add them it shouldn’t cause any problems. The problems arise with certain minerals and fat soluble vitamins as these can be harmful when consumed in excess. Because balanced commercial foods already contain vitamins and minerals adding additional vitamins (fat soluble) and certain minerals could potentially result in toxicity. I would definitely not supplement with vitamin d or calcium – vitamin d is a fat soluble vitamin and adding calcium would likely throw off the calcium to phosphorus ratio and high levels of calcium are what need to be avoided for large and giant breed puppies.

Now onto discussing the Science Diet Adult Maintenance recommendation. I see many breeders recommend putting large breed puppies directly onto an adult maintenance food and this is extremely poor advice (imo) and often based on faulty logic. The reason breeders typically recommend adult foods is because adult foods tend to be lower in fat and calories than puppy foods – from the previous discussion we know that this isn’t an issue as long as portions are controlled. Feeding a puppy a food designated for adult maintenance puts the puppy at risk of not getting enough fat, protein or certain vitamins and minerals. SD is extremely low in protein – to be honest I wouldn’t even feel comfortable feeding a food that low in protein to an adult dog, let alone a growing puppy. I don’t ever recommend feeding foods with less than 30% protein (for adults or puppies) and the SD only has 24.5% protein. Also, if you go to SD’s website and read the product description for the adult maintenance food you’ll notice they state “Not recommended for puppies, pregnant or lactating dogs” – this is because dogs in their growth phase or in the stressful phase of pregnancy or lactation need high levels of protein, higher levels of fat and higher levels of certain vitamins and minerals. I personally wouldn’t ever feed or recommend any Science Diet Products. I would recommend checking out some 4 or 5 star foods with appropriate calcium levels. It’s also better if you rotate foods, don’t stick with just one – dogs need variety. I’d say at a bare minimum have three go to brands (preferably made by different companies and with different protein sources) and rotate through them. Rotational feeding has benefits including fostering a diverse population of gut flora, mitigating the short comings of feeding any one single food (no food is perfect) and providing alternatives in the event of a recall or formula change.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

No problem gsdmommy, glad I was able to help. 🙂

[gsdmommy89]

Thank you HDM for all the info. Will definitely go with Orijen first. I will also definitely come back with more questions. You are so knowledgeable!!

[acs379]

Hound Dog Mom, thank you for being so thorough in your answer! It clears things up quite a bit; the article discussed briefly that the fat percentage should be at a lower level but did not go into specifics as for the health implications of excess fat. I just wanted to confirm that there was nothing about excess fat SPECIFICALLY that would cause health issues (i.e. like excess calcium). I’m thinking I can start with Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen, because they both have good nutritional stats, good ingredients from what I understand, and seem to be used with success by other owners who have posted. If you have any other suggestions for foods, please let me know! I was planning on supplementing with fresh food (i.e. hardboiled eggs, yogurt) and canned food (i.e. tripe) as well as digestive enzymes to help aid in the digestion of the dry food.

I do have a few follow-up questions. Here’s my situation: I’m getting a German Shepherd puppy in a few weeks (yay!). It’s coming from a well-known breeder, who made some nutritional suggestions based on years of experience with multiple vets. They suggest, “Puppies from 8 weeks to 1 year should be fed Science Diet Maintenance, fresh meat, yogurt, and boiled eggs.” However, Science Diet Maintenance has extremely LOW ratings on this site, as well as negative reviews from other posters on this site. This really concerns me, and I’m curious as to why they would make that particular suggestion.

In addition, they make suggestions for vitamins as well: 1,000 mg Vitamin C a day and a multi-vitamin and a B complex capsule once a day. In the research I did, the only supplements mentioned were calcium and Vitamin D. Do you see any issue with giving the suggested 3 vitamins?

Thanks so much for your help! You’ve provided so much valuable information and have also had to guide further research for me.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi acs379 –

This is a wonderful point to bring up! I’ll try to explain it as best I can.

The two main nutritional risks to large breed puppies are excess calcium consumption (or an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio) and excess energy consumption (too many calories leading to rapid weight gain).

The reason most formulas targeted towards large breed puppies and recommended for large breed puppies tend to be lower in fat has to do with the excess energy consumption risk factor. Protein and carbohydrates both have approximately 4 kcal. per gram while fat has over twice this much at about 9 kcal. per gram. So as you can see, fat is much more calorically dense than protein or carbohydrates and, as a result, foods that are higher in fat tend to be more calorically-dense as well. It is easier for a puppy (or any dog) to consume too much energy (calories) when eating a more calorically-dense food and this would ultimately result in undesired weight gain and, as we know, undesired weight gain in large and giant breed puppies can contribute to the development of orthopedic disease. This is why when feeding a more calorically-dense, or as some would say “rich”, food it is necessary to strictly control portions.

As you can see fat – per se – is not a risk factor for developmental orthopedic disease, excess calories are. It’s very possible to feed a puppy (or any dog) a food that is higher and fat and not have the dog gain unwanted pounds – this is done through portion control. So if, for example, a puppy is eating a food with 20% fat that has 500 kcal. per cup the puppy will obviously need less of this food (to compensate for the high caloric-density) than of a food with 12% fat and 350 kcal. per cup.

All of my puppies have eaten higher fat foods. Gertie ate a combination of The Honest Kitchen and grain-free canned foods until she was 8 months old with fat levels in excess of 20%. Mabel ate a homemade raw diet from the time she came home at 8 weeks with fat levels in the 30% – 40% range. I keep track of the calories my dogs are consuming, so my pups are fed the amount of calories that keeps them in optimal body condition. This means that when eating fattier more calorie-dense meals they get a smaller portion than when they’re eating leaner less calorie-dense meals.

In summary, it’s not the fat that contributes to developmental orthopedic disease it’s the excess calories that fat provides. As long as portion sizes are monitored and the pup isn’t allowed to gain weight too quickly fat levels won’t pose an issue.

I hope that helps clear things up!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 11 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[acs379]

Hello!

I just found this site today, and I’m really appreciative of all the helpful information posted on here (especially Hound Dog Mom!). I read a few of the articles you posted, including the one discussing nutritional risks to large-breed puppies. One thing I found in that article that I feel hasn’t been discussed in these forums–at least from what I can find–is the fat percentage. The article stated that the food chosen should have a fat percentage less than 15-16%. I was looking into the foods that are recommended frequently on this forum–especially Nature’s Variety Instinct and Orijen–and though they have great stats on calcium, calcium-phosphorous ratio, protein, and energy, their minimum fat percentages exceed the 15-16% recommended value. I would really appreciate any help/clarification!

[Sully’sMom]

One of my go to favorites is:

fill marrow bones with applesauce and freeze. they love them! I do a tray of 3 or 4 at a time and then always have them ready for a treat that’s both healthy and keeps ’em busy 🙂

[starbright26]

I love the idea of baby carrots and dehydrated fruit!! Good for everybody! We’ll definitely give that a try! Thanks again!!

[Saireah]

* Starbright:
You are most welcome! I wish you the best of luck!
And I’ve been trying to save money on treats and wanted something healthier for Quinn with her joints, so a few “healthy” suggestions are baby carrots, dehydrated fruit (we use our food dehydrator and make a bunch of apples and bananas when they’re getting a little soft for our taste or if we forget they were in the fridge drawer), and homemade treats (there’s some great peanut butter and pumpkin ones out there). Quinn loooooves apples (no seeds or core!) in any form and sometimes I sprinkle some cinnamon on them. They’re cheap and good for her. Try carrots for sure!
Also: we subscribe to a few monthly dog subscription boxes that gives us all of our treats — mainly because it feels like Christmas when I open up the boxes. 😉

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi gsdmommy89 –

I think the new formulation for Orijen Large Breed Puppy should be okay. For some reason Orijen’s website isn’t working for me right now but I believe the minimum and maximum put it at right around the 3.5 g./1,000 kcal. level (maybe slightly lower than 3.5 g. basing the calculation on the min and slightly more basing it on the max).

The Earthborn Primitive Natural formula is too high in calcium but I believe Meadow Feast and Coastal Catch are okay if you’d be interested in either of those formulas. The calorie content for the Earthborn Primitive Naturals is 3,800 kcal. per kg. of food or approximately 445 kcal. per cup.

The calcium levels in Nutrisca are too high: 1.7105% for the chicken formula, 2.2294% for the salmon formula and 2.1516% for the lamb formula.

I really like Nature’s Variety Instinct and they do have two formulas with appropriate calcium levels – the Rabbit Meal formula and the Limited Ingredient Turkey Meal formula.

All of the Merrick formulas are too high in calcium to the best of my knowledge. When I last emailed Merrick they had just reformulated their grain-free line and did not yet have the lab results back with the nutrient values but I was told the calcium levels were expected to be roughly the same as in the old formulas and all the values in the old formulas were around 2.0%.

I think Orijen would be a great food to try, I think it’s one of the better dry foods available. The best recommendation I could make would be to find several quality foods that are high in animal-based protein and rotate through them. It’s also a good idea to mix in canned or fresh foods if possible – this will boost the protein levels and provide some less processed food for your pup. In my opinion it’s very important that dogs get variety and have some fresh foods incorporated into their meals occasionally. Once your pup is around 8 months old and through the rapid growth phase, I wouldn’t worry so much about calcium but when the pup is young and growing rapidly it’s important. So some of the foods you mentioned (Nutrisca, Earthborn Primitive Naturals, Merrick, etc.) would be fine to try later on but I’d wait until the pup is at least 8 months old.

Good luck 🙂

[starbright26]

Hi Saireah,

You responded to my post about my pup with hip dysplasia and I truly want to thank you for the advice and encouragement.. It was extremely helpful. I certainly plan to help Sadie lose some weight being that even a few pounds seems to make a huge difference on a dog with HD. I’m looking into a food change of either Earthborn grain free or 4health grain free..as both of these seem to be highly recommended. Perhaps I can alternate them. I’ve also started supplimenting..

I have unfortunate issues with the exercise routines being that Sadie was feral and is being socialized+the deafness/vission issues-she has an extremely difficult time leaving the house even for small walks. We are in full swing rehab mode though so hopefully we can overcome these issues quickly to help rebuild her muscles. I want to try your air mattress technique though until we get further!

Because of her intensified sense of smell she is very food motivated.. this is is the main way we’ve been able to train and encourage her but Im weary of the treats we’ve been giving. I certainly want to watch her weight now. Do you have any good recommendations for healthy treats or those good for dogs with HD? Sorry if this doesnt really relate to this thread anymore but Im grateful to have any advice! Thanks again…

[Dustin-R]

I have a 4 month old Rottie. He was on Blue Buffalo Wilderness puppy. He had loose stool a lot. Blue would not give me a answer about the calcium levels so I switched to Wellness Core Puppy and have NO problems at all with it. It is on the list also. With my pup Wellness Core Puppy is the one.

[cinner00]

HDM,

Thank you.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi cinner00 –

The calcium percentages for Victor that were provided to me are: 2.0% for the GF All Life Stages, 2.0% for the GF Joint Health, 1.7% for the GF Ultra Pro and 1.9% for the GF Salmon & Sweet Potato – there’s no point in bothering with calculating grams of calcium per 1,000 kcal, I can tell they’re all too high in calcium just based on these percentages.

I have no negative feedback for the Wellness CORE formula. I’ve personally never fed any Wellness products, but they seem to get fairly positive feedback on the review site.

[gsdmommy89]

Hello Hound Dog Mom!

I recently posted a question in the Orijen dog food review. One of the persons that replied to my questions recommended this forum. I will be getting a German Shepherd puppy in the next few weeks and I was interested in the Orijen Large Breed puppy formula. I went on their website and the Calcium content for this formula was min/max 1.2%/1.5%. I also liked the Earthborn Holistic Primitive Naturals formula but their website states that the Calcium content for this formula was not less than 1.5% and also, the calorie content for this formula was 717 kilo-calories per cup. That’s a very high number, I think. I’ve also taken a look at Nature’s Variety Instinct in the Duck Meal and Turkey Meal formula, but the Calcium content for that was not less than 1.92%. I looked at the Wellness Core Puppy and their website states a Calcium content of no more than 1.5%. I saw in one of your responses that you fed Nutrisca. I didn’t find the Calcium content on their website, but what did you think about this food for your dogs? The las one I wanted to mention that I’ve been looking up is Merrick Grain Free in either Duck, Pork, or Beef. Merrick did not have their Calcium content on the website either but I did email them. Haven’t gotten a response yet.

I’d like to know what you would recommend for a German Shepherd puppy? I know it will all depend on his energy level, how big he is, etc. But something to start out with, what would you recommend. I’m really interested in the Orijen, and I’d like to stay away from plant protein boosted kibble if possible. Out of the foods I mentioned above, which would you think would be better for me to try? I’m sorry if it’s alot of questions. I just want to make sure I do things right, and make the right decision. Thank you so much for your time. Also, if you’d like to recommend something else besides the kibble mentioned above, I’m all ears

[gsdmommy89]

Hello Hound Dog Mom!

I recently posted a question in the Orijen dog food review. One of the persons that replied to my questions recommended this forum. I will be getting a German Shepherd puppy in the next few weeks and I was interested in the Orijen Large Breed puppy formula. I went on their website and the Calcium content for this formula was min/max 1.2%/1.5%. I also liked the Earthborn Holistic Primitive Naturals formula but their website states that the Calcium content for this formula was not less than 1.5% and also, the calorie content for this formula was 717 kilo-calories per cup. That’s a very high number, I think. I’ve also taken a look at Nature’s Variety Instinct in the Duck Meal and Turkey Meal formula, but the Calcium content for that was not less than 1.92%. I looked at the Wellness Core Puppy and their website states a Calcium content of no more than 1.5%. I saw in one of your responses that you fed Nutrisca. I didn’t find the Calcium content on their website, but what did you think about this food for your dogs? The las one I wanted to mention that I’ve been looking up is Merrick Grain Free in either Duck, Pork, or Beef. Merrick did not have their Calcium content on the website either but I did email them. Haven’t gotten a response yet.

I’d like to know what you would recommend for a German Shepherd puppy? I know it will all depend on his energy level, how big he is, etc. But something to start out with, what would you recommend. I’m really interested in the Orijen, and I’d like to stay away from plant protein boosted kibble if possible. Out of the foods I mentioned above, which would you think would be better for me to try? I’m sorry if it’s alot of questions. I just want to make sure I do things right, and make the right decision. Thank you so much for your time. Also, if you’d like to recommend something else besides the kibble mentiones above, Im all ears

[cinner00]

HDM,

Ok, I started from scratch again and I found your list about calcium. I am thinking that I will go with the Wellness Core Puppy which you did mention to me in an earlier reply. I can get it online for a reasonable price and I can also get it at my local pet store. Any negative feedback on this decision?? You have it rated 5 stars.

cinner00

[cinner00]

HDM,

Shoot. He’s only 12 weeks old. I couldn’t find the calcium ratio on the Victor, but saw it was 5 star and had many of the things you have discussed. Well I only bought a small bag. Back to the drawing board. I would like a really good dog food around the 50.00 dollar range for the 26lb bag. I don;t mind ordering if I have to. Is there anything you would suggest for his age and size. I have looked at so many foods I’m going crazy. Some of the foods I have seen people discussing are up to 63-70 dollars for the big bag.

[Saireah]

* InkedMarie:
Yes! Dog Food Chat – I’m “Grey.” 🙂

* Sully’s Mom:
I really just used the sample bags as a treat. I opened them up to see their reaction and fed them a small handful. The reaction between Dr. Tim’s and Earthborn was noticeable, though, and the sample from Dr. Tim’s was larger (5lbs). Earthborn were just little bags (but they did have coupons on each one!). What’s lovely about Earthborn is that they have the UPC for Trees program (see their web site). When I was originally considering Earthborn, I LOVED that idea. I still may feed Costal Catch if I decide to rotate as I’m thinking about, though. Another thing that turned me off a bit about Earthborn is the ash level – it’s a bit higher than Dr. Tim’s. Now, mind you, it’s not as if it automatically makes it a bad food – the pea protein and the ash are just factors that Dr. Tim’s was lower on or didn’t have and that’s how I made my decision between specifically selecting between both of them. Also, something funny — some people mentioned that Dr. Tim’s smells like roasted chicken, but I think it smells like the Iowa State Fair barnyard. 😉 Dr. Tim originally suggested Pursuit for my dog (the one with hip dysplasia), too – because the extra fatty acids in Pursuit would help (per his quote). However, I circled back with him half a year later and he did say that grain-free would suit perfectly fine now that she’s in better health in terms of her joints.

Kinesis GF has 32% protein, 18% fat,1.51% calcium, 415 cal/cup, and 6.9% ash.
Pursuit is grain inclusive and has 30% protein, 1.06% calcium, 20% fat, 450 cal/cup, and 6.5% ash.

They’re both a mainly chicken-based food, with Pursuit being more calories. However, the plus-side with grain-free is that you can feed less. Compare the feeding suggestions. Right there, I’d say that grain-free (in my personal opinion) is superior because 1) it’s grain-free, yay!, 2) you’re going to feed less, 3) they’ll produce less waste because of this, and 4) Kinesis has higher protein. I’m not incredibly knowledgeable about specifics of ingredients, but this is why I chose the grain-free line over the grain inclusive line. GF Kinesis looks to be roughly $5 more per 30lb bag than Pursuit, too – and Dr. Tim mentioned they are considering a 44lb bag of GF Kinesis (grain inclusive Kinesis has this option available) in the future.

I’m thinking that he might have mentioned Pursuit over the two specifically because your dog is fairly young and likely very active – so he was thinking he’d do quite well on Pursuit. By no means are either a “bad” food to choose – remember, there’s several dogs out there eating low quality food every day. My mother fed our family dogs a food that is a 2 star food for his entire life and he lived to be 12. I know we’re trying to do our best with what they food them, but no matter what – by choosing a 4 star or 5 star food – we are making a better choice.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Sully’s Mom – I’ve posted two detailed responses to your questions but unfortunately they keep getting sent to the spam folder. I’ll email Dr. Mike and see if he can release them. I apologize ahead of time for the duplicate posts if they do come back.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet but I am currently in school working toward it – so hopefully in a few years.

I don’t believe there is a thread on the forums dedicated to the arsenic and rice issue but you could certainly start a thread if you want input from other posters. I really haven’t researched the issue much as neither myself or my dogs eat much rice aside from germinated rice a few times a month. However, I feel that as long as you’re rotating rice-inclusive foods with rice-free foods it probably wouldn’t be a big issue. Dr. Mike does have an article about arsenic in rice over on the review site.

I’ve fed both Nature’s Variety Instinct and Nutrisca and feel they’re both good foods. When I used to feed kibble Instinct was a staple in my dog’s rotation – it’s a great food.

NaturalK9Supplies.com and K9Cuisine.com usually have a big selection of trial-sized bags and free samples. Also, companies will often mail you samples if you ask. As stated previously, I don’t feed kibble for meals any longer, I do still order samples frequently though. I like to try products with my own dogs so I can make better recommendations. I usually layer kibble and canned pumpkin and freeze it to give to my dogs as a treat.

My assumption as to why Dr. Tim would recommend Pursuit over GF Kinesis is the calcium levels – the calcium in the GF Kinesis is a bit high for a large breed puppy.

Hope that helps! 🙂

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi cinner00 –

How old is your pup? The Victor GF formulas are all high in calcium.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Good Morning Sully’s Mom –

No, I’m not a vet – but I’m back in school working towards it so hopefully in a few years!

Dr. Mike has an article about the arsenic issue with rice: dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-news/arsenic-discovered-in-rice/ . Feel free to start your own thread if you would like to get others’ opinions. I really haven’t researched the issue too much as I don’t eat much rice myself and my dogs rarely get rice (or any grains) aside from germinated rice a few times a month.

I’m a big Nature’s Variety Instinct fan. When I used to feed kibble to my oldest dog it was frequently in rotation. I’ve used Nutrisca as well and feel it’s a good food. My dogs eat raw as their main diet (as mentioned) however I do frequently order samples and trial-sized bags of kibble. Even though I don’t feed kibble for meals I like to keep in the know about the best brands so I can make good recommendations. For my dogs, they usually get kibble in a kong for an after dinner treat (I layer kibble and canned pumpkin and pop it in the freezer). Naturalk9supplies.com and k9cuisine.com usually offer a wide variety of free samples and sell small trial-sized bags. Also, most companies will send you samples if you call or email them and ask.

It’s possible that Dr. Tim could be recommending Pursuit over the Grain-Free Kinesis due to calcium levels. The calcium levels in the Grain-Free Kinesis formula are a bit high for a large breed puppy. Honestly, if you’re rotating through a variety of foods that do and do not contain rice I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the arsenic. I just wouldn’t feed a food with rice long term. I also feel Dr. Tim’s is a very trustworthy company so if they’re saying that their rice tests negative for high levels of arsenic I would tend to believe them (although I would still rotate brands).

[cinner00]

HDM,

Thank you for your advice. I ended up ordering a small bag of VICTOR GRAIN-FREE ACTIVE DOG & PUPPY 33/16 to try instead of the Wellness brand. You show a 5 star rating. I was wondering about the calcium level. It appears there is no calcium on their website or yours in the reviews. Will this be a good food for my Bernese Mt. mix.

Cinner00

[Sully’sMom]

Hah, here I am again! Now I know why they say ignorance is bliss! I contacted Dr Tims and boy you were right…they are responsive! However, I was inquiring about the GF product and when I mentioned I had a 1 yr old lab they said they recommend the Pursuit instead. My main reason for looking to go grain free is the arsenic issue (thoughts?); are there other good reasons? Dr Tim said they test their rice several times a year and that it has always tested negative for arsenic…

[Sully’sMom]

Hope you’re not tired of these questions, but I’m enjoying “talking” with you about dog food. The mention of samples intrigued me: PetFlow often offers “trials” at great prices. I never considered them before because I never considered rotating foods before, but they are currently offering trial sizes of both Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Boost Grain Free and/or Nutrisca Chicken and Chickpea. Are you familiar with either/both? I noticed DFA has them both at 5 stars.

Secondly, if you were getting small sample sizes as above (this is for you too Saireah since you’re the one who mentioned samples!), how would you fit them into your feeding?

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you, Hound Dog Mom, very helpful!

Saireah, you too! I never thought about samples…will look into that. I’m now targeting 3 foods, all grain-free: Dr Tim’s, Merrick, and Earthborn. All seem to be at a reasonable price point for a quality food.

Hound Dog Mom, you seem extremely knowledgeable (are you a vet?) – is there another discussion thread on the forum somewhere about the arsenic/rice issue? Very interested…

[InkedMarie]

Saireah: glad you had the same experience with Dr. Tim’s as most people seem to! Btw, aren’t you the one I know from either Puppy & Dog Forums and/or Dog Food Chat? I post on both with the same name

[Hound Dog Mom]

Saireah – I actually haven’t fed kibble (as a meal) in nearly three years. However, when I did feed kibble I switched to a new brand with a new protein source at the end of every bag and I rotated canned and fresh food toppers daily. Once your dog gets used to switching foods you shouldn’t need to transition gradually, you can just do it cold turkey.

Sully’s Mom – Yes – high levels of protein (preferably animal-based protein) is a very good things as dogs have a strong carnivorous bias and are designed to eat a primarily meat-based diet. When I fed kibble I never fed foods with less than 30% protein. My dogs now eat a raw diet with protein levels ranging between 45% and 55% at each meal.

[Sully’sMom]

Is the high protein level a good thing?

[Saireah]

I’m definitely going to try rotating brands — it’s intriguing to me. 🙂 Do you personally transition between rotations? I know that you feed raw sometimes, but when you’re doing kibble — do you ever switch over cold turkey? My apologies if you’ve acknowledged this question in this thread before. Dr. Tim mentioned 50/50 for three days and then you’re free to swap over.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Sully’s Mom –

If you can get Earthborn locally most pet food stores have a frequent buyer program – buy 10 bags get the 11th free.

Saireah –

I agree – Dr. Tim’s has AMAZING customer service and he’s very knowledgeable. I also agree that no food is perfect, this is why it’s important to rotate brands. Earthborn is a little heavy on the peas with some of their formulas but their price reflects that – it’s about $45 for a 28 lb. bag versus the $70+ you’d pay for an equal amount of many of the foods with a higher meat content. I do have to say though, their Primitive Natural doesn’t appear to use many vegetable protein boosters and it’s got a very high protein level (38%).

[Saireah]

Each grain-free Earthborn “flavor” has a different protein level. I had originally thought they were similar to the Fromm line — where you could swap them around with no problems. I went with Dr. Tim’s Kinesis grain-free over Earthborn after receiving samples from both brands because Earthborn favors pea protein and I’ve been really impressed with Dr. Tim answering my e-mails and his office assistant when she spoke to me over the phone to get my shipping address. My dog’s really liked Earthborn’s Coastal Catch sample, but they went crazy for Dr. Tim’s.

Dr. Tim’s is “meatier” than Earthborn. Earthborn has flat little rounded triangles, so easier to eat for smaller breeds. Dr. Tim’s are round nuggets.

Since you have another Fromm’s bag to go, I’d suggest requesting and/or purchasing samples if they’re available. 🙂

Just remember that there’s no “PERFECT” dog food. I have to keep telling myself that constantly. 😉

[Sully’sMom]

Wow, just looked up Earthborn and it looks darn near perfect! 5 stars on DFA, good ingredients and, as you said, a good price. And, I assume since my large breed puppy will be over 12 mos when I transition, no need to even ask about the calcium?

Thanks for pointing me in a direction I’d not have known about! We have a coupon for a free bag of Fromm, so we’ll get that and then transition…

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you! I’ve been thinking about Merrick for awhile. I’ve never heard of the other two, but will look into them. TOTW, I’d had the same thinking just today….

[Hound Dog Mom]

I wouldn’t feed Taste of the Wild due to the fact that it’s manufactured by Diamond. I think Merrick is a good food. Two other grain-free foods that are really high quality and wallet friendly (under $50 for the large bag) are Earthborn and Victor. These are two foods that don’t sacrifice meat content for price. NutriSource Grain-Free and 4Health Grain-Free are two other reasonably priced options although their protein content (and thus) is a little lower – these two are similar in quality to the Fromm Grain-Free line but they are priced accordingly (I believe the 4Health is around $36 for a 30 lb. bag and NutriSource is around $50 for a 30 lb. bag).

[Sully’sMom]

Thank you for clarifying! As I said, we’ve been feeding him the Gold Lrg Breed but, as he turns 1 soon, and I’ve been wanting to get him off grains (mainly due to the rice/arsenic issue), I was thinking about turning to the Fromm Grain – Free, however I’ve found two that seem more wallet-friendly. Do you have an opinion on the Merrick grain-free lines and/or Taste of the Wild? Or any other suggestions?

[Hound Dog Mom]

I wouldn’t say I’m down on Fromm exactly. I think Fromm is a very reputable company and they make decent food. I just don’t think they produce a product that is worthy of 5 stars. It’s mainly their grain-free line I take issue with. Most of their grain-free foods have less than 30% protein and are loaded with plant-based protein boosters and they cost nearly $70 for a 26 lb. bag. Never would I pay that kind of money for a food that low in protein and with a good chunk of the protein coming from peas.

[Sully’sMom]

May I ask why you’re so down on Fromm? It’s family owned, produced in its’ own facility, hasn’t had and recent recalls that I could find, quality ingredients….
I’ve been feeding my puppy Gold Star Large Breed so am quite curious if there’s something you don’t like about it…?

Appreciate any additional info..

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi yevincent –

I realize Fromm is rated 4 stars. Fromm was just recently downgraded to 4 stars (thank god – I could never understand why that food was rated 5 stars!) but at the time I made the list the entire line was rated 5 stars. I have not yet had a chance to go in and change it. Within the next month I plan on updating this list and also making a list of grain-inclusive foods. I’m just strapped for time at the moment.

The calculation for the Wellness CORE was based on the actual calcium level sent to me by the company. I emailed them and asked for the average calcium level in the Wellness CORE Puppy Food based on their product analysis results.

I have the email saved and this was their response to me:

Dear Lydia,

Thank you for taking the time to write about Wellness CORE Puppy dry dog food.

This formula contains approximately 1.23% calcium.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Alyssa Martin
Representative
Consumer Affairs

000299852A

You’re basing your calculation on the max listed on their website. Companies will often list minimums and maximums that are quite a bit higher or lower than the actual amount in the food to allow for a margin of error. I chose to make the list based on average levels rather than maximums or minimums.

[InkedMarie]

Star right, since your dog had HD, getting any extra weight off her is very important. Help her lose the weight and get her a joint supplement (the one I mentioned wa recommended by HDM)

[Saireah]

Starbright:

My Quinn (lab/vizsla) was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at 1 year old. I switched her food to grain-free after discovering that, along with a higher protein. She needed to build muscle as she was favoring one side. She has hip dysplasia in both hips.

In terms of supplements, I can tell you what we’ve done that has made a phenomenal difference. She just turned two and there’s no way in the world I’d have thought she would be at this point. We were pretty certain she was going to need surgery (her range of motion was OK — but we just thought surgery would be more immediate than in the distant future).

As HDM suggests, a great diet with anti-inflammatory supplements was suggested to us by Iowa State University. Since being recommended, we’ve had her on Nutramax Cosequin DS Double-Strength Chewable Tablets. According to Iowa State, this is the only brand to be clinically proven. You will give her two a day for a month and one a day from then on (directions are on the bottle). Coupled with this, we also immediately started her on one tablet of fish oil per day — 1,000MG (but you may have to feed less/more — consult vet).

The diet change and supplements helped, but targeted exercise has made the difference, as well. Take your dog swimming. If she doesn’t like to swim, teach her to love it by way of rewards/playing. Swimming is the best for joint issues. Other options provided to us were walking in tall grass (makes her lift her legs all the way as opposed to close together/hopping), walking on a blown up air mattress (good for winter exercise), and frequent walks (as opposed to a long walk — more frequent is better).

Also — obviously weight. She’s a slim 43 pounds at the moment, but she did get to 50 pounds in the winter and my vet noticed it. Slim is always, always better — and I’ve had people say she’s too thin (mostly because I don’t think most people are accustomed to seeing healthy dogs — harsh, but true… I think a lot of dogs are overweight).

If you have any questions, let me know. I really enjoy talking about this subject because I couldn’t find enough information when this happened to us. It’s our personal experience, but Quinn is now running full-speed and playing for hours and hours daily. A definite turnaround.

Good luck. 🙂

[yevincent]

I want to point out that in the list you posted before, you said the Fromm Four Star Nutritionals grain-free is 5 star food. I read the review today, it said Fromm Four Star Nutritionals just earns 4 star (except one). Maybe you made a mistake in the list.
And the Wellness Core: Puppy has over 3.5g/1000 kcal calcium based on my calculation:
Calcium is 1.50%, 3,792 kcal per kilogram,
so I got 3.95g/1000 kcal.
You may want to double check them…

[Hound Dog Mom]

Definitely – a quality 4 or 5 star food with supplements would be the way to go. I’d personally go grain-free if possible as grains are inflammatory. I don’t really have any particular favorites – when I fed kibble I switched brands after every bag. Good luck!

[starbright26]

Thanks for clarifying that for me.. It looks like we’re in for a long road, but thankfully she isnt showing major symptoms yet.. Perhaps we’ll consider surgery. Until then basically any of the recommended 4star foods would work well in conjunction with the suppliments, correct? Any personal favorites I should check into?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi starbright –

Unfortunately if your dog has hip dysplasia she has hip dysplasia. Hip dysplasia is a chronic degenerative condition and is not reversible. The condition will progress as she ages, although its difficult to predict the extend to which it will affect her as many factors are at play (degree of pain tolerance, size and weight of the dog, etc.). For some dogs hip dysplasia is crippling and for others it may never cause more than a mild stiffness with age. Anti-inflammatory supplements (tart cherry, omega 3’s, boswellia, turmeric, etc.) will certainly help manage pain and supplements such as glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM/hylaluronic acid (or whole foods containing these items) may help slow the joint deterioration to a certain degree – but they certainly won’t stop it. It will also be critical to keep her lean and active (low impact activities). Being that she’s over a year old calcium levels won’t affect anything at this point.

[starbright26]

Thanks for the reply.. I appreciate the advice on suppliments but I really dont thing her losing weight is my main concern.. I’m looking more for giudance on a longterm food to feed her that would benefit her joints and help cease the progression of the hip dysplasia if possible. Has anyone else been down this road before? Are suppliments more important or does the food made a larger impact.. Is grain free best for this situation? Being that she is over a year now, do the calcium levels still play a role? Sorry, Ive just been researching and reading all these posts which is only confusing me further.. Please help if you can… Thanks 🙂