[DellUSN]

Scary thing is he won’t be four months for another 11 days. He’s a big boy for sure which is why I’m worried about his diet and rapid growth.

[InkedMarie]

A 40 pound four month old pup? That’s going to be a big dog!

[InkedMarie]

Well, if you ever have a problem with the food & you can’t get a hold of customer service, you may sing a different tune. There are too many other quality foods with customer service that actually serve customers to choose from. Your choice. To some of us, this is very important. To you, it’s not and that’s ok. Your dogs.

[DellUSN]

Hello, Hound Dog Mom.

I’ve been searching around this site for a little while now and I’ve noticed your activity and knowledge about pet foods. I signed up so that I could attempt to contact you directly through private message, but I guess that’s not possible here. Either way, I’ve been reading a lot of your advice on here and I had a couple questions for you. I have a 4 month old Chocolate Lab (40 pounds) named Rooster who I just got a couple weeks ago. Having studied to become an Registered Vet Tech before I joined The Navy, I understood that importance of nutrition for large breed puppies, or any breed of puppy for that matter. After some research I decided to go with a 4 pound bag of Wellness CORE Puppy Formula. His transition over to the food went very smoothly and he’s been devouring it, so I bought him a 26 pound bag. I currently feed him 4 cups a day dry kibble (2 AM, 2 PM) and he’s doing well on the schedule. I read a post that you made about rotating dog’s brand of food and source of protein. I was curious if this was something that should be implemented at young age and some other brands you recommended for my pup. Also, I was very worried about my dog and people food because I’ve seen so many people just go nuts feeding there dogs junk food. He has not been exposed to any people food yet, but I’d like to get him on some raw meats and bones if possible. At what age would he be ready for that and what sorts of things would you recommend for him in that field? I really anticipate your reply and appreciate any input you offer. Thank you!

[Gemma60537]

And obviously a choice entirely up to you. I guess I’m more of the camp that I’d much rather stay on their product because of what goes into it than dump them for non-food related issues. But I have the advantage that I already feed them Canine Caviar so I can see the benefits of their products first hand every time I look at my dogs, versus just hearing word of mouth.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi wallyworld –

I’m actually in the process of making a grain-inclusive list now (should be done by the end of this week or early next week). I contact Nutro last week and spoke to their customer service (very polite customer service I might add) and, unfortunately, all of their formulas were too high in calcium.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi juelz4you –

There have been some issues with obtaining the Canine Caviar information (there is actually a thread about this). When I created the list about a year ago the calcium level I used was listed as an actual (not min). I’ve been trying to contact the company for a week now (via email and phone) and have received no response so this food will be removed from the list. I’m currently in the process of updating the list and creating a grain-inclusive list.

[wallyworld]

BTW, nutro natural choice, dry is rated 4 stars on DFA. There isn’t a review on that particular formula but at the top of the nutro page it lists the large breed puppy formula as 4 stars.

[wallyworld]

I was looking into some grain inclusive large breed puppy foods and below is what Nutro emailed me, just in case anyone is interested. I did request actual or average %. They just sent what is already posted on their website, not very helpful…

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. We value the opinions of our consumers and take their feedback very seriously.

NUTRO® NATURAL CHOICE® LARGE BREED PUPPY LAMB MEAL & RICE contains a minimum Calcium content of 1.0%, and a maximum of 1.5%. This formulation contains a minimum of 0.9% Phosphorus, and a maximum of 1.3%.

NUTRO® NATURAL CHOICE® LARGE BREED PUPPY CHICKEN, WHOLE BROWN RICE & OATMEAL contains a minimum Calcium content of 1.0%, and a maximum of 1.5%. This formulation contains a minimum of 0.9% Phosphorus, and a maximum of 1.3%.

[InkedMarie]

Wow, still no response? I know you had this issue with Darwin’s (I think it was you anyway) but you’re the only person I know who has!

[julez4you]

Hound Dog Mom-
Thank you for all the research and info you’ve shared regarding a list of quality foods for Giant Breeds. I have a 9 week old Great Dane pup that the breeder had on Purina One that I just switched over to Petcurean Go! But after learning the max levels of calcium/ phosphorous- I’m not sure that’s the food I want to stick with.

I considered Canine Caviar as I’m a fan of their ingredients and like that the food is extruded vs. baked, but in reviewing the nutritional levels on their website (also noted in the list you prepared)- the 1% calcium level is listed as a min (not a max.) When I tried calling customer service to obtain the max levels, I was told they do not publish a max since the levels vary which made me very nervous.

I know you had indicated that you called and/or emailed all the companies on your list for max levels where they were not indicated. Did you receive 1% as the max from Canine Caviar?

Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Gemma –

I agree with Marie. I’m the one who has emailed them numerous times with no response and called them several times only to get a full voice mailbox. This is unacceptable. Being a small company this is all the more reason they should have superior customer service. In my experience most small companies have better customer service than large companies. After this experience I would never use or recommend their products. BTW – after nearly a week of trying to get a hold of them I never did.

[spaniel39]

Hi, All
well, I finally heard back and I’m mostly convinced it was a labeling error
(but still perplexed when they caught it, why they would keep using up the older packaging with
the misinformation?)
They are sending me replacement bags (new with the correct information)
for the Large Breed Puppy Lamb Dinner.

[InkedMarie]

Gemma, I’m glad you like the food but being a small company is no excuse. Others have either gone days before getting an email response, one person said she called numerous times and their mailbox is full. That is not acceptable. I don’t care how good a food is, if you can’t get anyone to return an email or phone call, that’s very poor customer service. If your dogs all of a sudden got sick on the food, you want an answer now, not later

[Gemma60537]

I saw this the other day and wanted to wait to chime in…I have fed Canine Caviar for about two and a half years. I learned about it through my friend/breeder who is an acquaintance of the founder, which is Jeff Baker who was mentioned as a good source of info. We had three senior dogs very close in age who passed away as each one hit 13, so now with my 2 year old Lab and my 10 week old Lab puppy I am NEUROTIC about anything that hits their bodies. I believe strongly in my Canine Caviar.

They are a pretty small company, so they probably do not have vast numbers of customer service people to answer questions, but my friend/breeder who made me aware of this brand swears by it with all of her dogs…and she’s one of those breeders who LOVES her dogs and carefully does a litter once or twice a year. I don’t think there’s some awful cover up over at CC. I know they are extremely cautious with their product, so it seems way more likely to me to be a printer error versus an error in the recipe of the food.

Personally I feed the Chicken & Pearl Millet formula to my 10 week old pup just like I fed it to my 2 year old since it’s so similar to the large breed puppy formula. My breeder says she’s been feeding it to her pups for 10 years, before their large breed pup formula was available.

[sharfie]

Thank you.

[Hound Dog Mom]

1.25%. The Wellness LBP has a very low calorie-density so the calcium per 1,000 kcal. comes out to 3.55 (if it were more calorie-dense the number would be less than 3.5). It’s still pretty low and would probably be acceptable but the my cutoff it 3.50.

[Anonymous]

Hi HDM – Thanks for info on Wellness. I’m curious what the Wellness people told you the calcium level for the Super 5 Large Breed Puppy was? My bag and their website list min as 1.0 and max as 1.4. Thanks!

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would say calcium levels are critical until around 8 months of age – at this time puppies are through their most rapid phase of growth and are beginning to regulate calcium absorption.

[sharfie]

I was wondering, at what age does the level of calcium in food not become an issue. I have a 5.5 month old Golden Retriever and currently have him on a rotation of low calcium food.

[londoncalling1996]

Oops, just figured out the STAR ratings, your own reviews of the food. Okay, got that! Thanks!

[londoncalling1996]

I am hoping to do the best for our new, 11 week old Bernese Mountain Dog pup, Lux. We had a Berner, Bailey, who died way too young (3-1/2) and it took us a long time to get over the loss and risk another one (and their relatively short life expectancy) joining our family. We are hoping Lux will live a good long life, well past her predicted expectancy. So, here I am! I have been looking thru this wonderfully informative website, thank you, which is helping me, but also making my brain spin a bit! I have a couple questions, the first (I can’t seem to find anywhere here) is about the 4 and 5 star foods. What is the difference? Digestive aid, is this only if my dog develops a problem, like throwing up, or would it be beneficial for life? Also, toppers, like the green tripe, is that something I should give our pup? The breeder was feeding her Ekanuba Large Breed Puppy so I bought a big bag of it. Doesn’t sound like it’s a good choice from what I’v read here. I heard at a pet store, they used to be a better dog food before being bought out by a big agro corp. (If that’s true). I’ve printed your list of recommended Large and Giant Breed Puppy foods and I will take that with me to buy Lux some new food tomorrow. Anyhow, Hound Dog Mom, thanks for all your hard work and puppy love! Cheers, Jules

[Jessica1]

I just adopted a puppy from a rescue, his mom and her puppies were dumped. The mom is a smaller German Shepherd and the vet thinks he has Burmese Mountain Dog. He is the cutest and sweetest “little” guy. I can guess this is going to be a big boy. Ever since I considered adopting him I started doing research on dog foods, they have changed a lot since my last dog.
I feel like I’m studying for an exam and failing. I am so confused at this point. I looked into brands like ; Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Blue Wilderness, Canine Caviar, Innova, Natures Variety, etc etc … After speaking to many people they stated that the higher end brands were to rich for their dogs and or created loose bowls. I’ve looked at the med end, but not all that happy with some of the ingredients. I loved the information on the, “Large Breed Puppy Food List” with the calcium percentages, and the food with rabbit as the main ingredient sounded to be like one of the best meats to use. But I just don’t know which might work out best for him. I was able to bring him home today and they have him on Pedigree so I want to wean him off this as soon as possible. Also, I would like to find a good food that won’t break me. I don’t mind paying a little more for better quality but some of the pricing is way out there.
I really want something that is good for him but it has to be something he enjoys. Oh and I’m looking for a dry food.
If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations for me I would greatly appreciate it.

[Hershy]

That’s too bad. Super5Mix Just for Puppy and their Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy Health are not the Wellness Core, right? I think you mentioned it was good. Or I may try the Fromm that you mentioned. I look forward to your other list.

Thanks so much!

[labgirl]

try to email jBaker@caninecaviar.com , hes the only one ill email, and i get the best responses and quick. . i hope you get the answer your looking for out of him.

the chicken and millet formula of Canine caviar is fine for large breeds/giant breeds i believe, just as an alternative for anyones whos on the large breed bags and needs something labelled properly.

[spaniel39]

It really does bother me that they don’t seem to care
Oh, we have this formula and we put it in bags that list a different formula but
oh well?
Not even apologizing.
should really contact the FDA or who else?
Is Dog Food Journal still around
Dog food analysis

[InkedMarie]

It tells me there is no way I will use or recommend their products.

[spaniel39]

Hi, AL
well, I received a reply from Canine caviar AND
(I had sent the info to Petflow/wag/Mr Chewey)
from Mr Chewey, who had contacted the company and received a reply that they forwarded to me.

Follow me?
I got a reply from Canine Caviar
I got a different reply from Canine Caviar that was sent to dog food distributor Mr Chewy
who forwarded it to me.
Sound good?
NOT!
Two different explanations and I truly believe some sort of cover-up
Not a very bright one as they have admitted putting the large breed food, into bags
that have different mineral (calcium/phosphorous) levels posted.
This is not minor.
A large breed pup fed a calcium level of 2.3 and phosphorous of 2 definitely
will adversely affect the pups health and growth and definitely cause skeletal
agonizing deformities (as any vet).
That is why the large breed brands have calcium no more than 1-1.3% and phosphorous
around .95-1%. There is a medical/scientific reason for this.
Anyway, both Mr Chewey and Canine caviar offered to replace my bags
(although it’s been 2 days and haven’t heard back from Canine, which is really irritating)
I mean, they know/knew about this and did not tell any of their distributors, no one!
What does that tell you?

[pugmomsandy]

Not sure why she says more than 35% protein could possibly lead to pancreatitis?

[BlackAndTan]

Hi everyone,

I sent a question through the website about a week ago and got the same error message.
Today I got a very involved reply. Quite appreciated.
Here it is if anyone’s interested (on the topic of protein cycling)

Cheers

——— message below —-
I am glad your boy is doing well on Canine Caviar!
Protein rotation is beneficial, there really is not a wrong way to do
it. It does not have to be done daily, it can be monthly or quarterly.
I personally feed a different kibble protein source each time a new bag
is needed and rotate thru the cans the same way.
When mixing cans with the kibble, keep in mind our cans are pure protein
and should be used as a supplement only. A dogs system can typically
utilize up to 35% of their intake as protein. Anymore than that can
lead to health issues like pancreatitis. If you are feeding more than a
few spoons of Canine Caviar canned food at a time, you will need to
reduce the amount of kibble you are feeding by the same amount, 1/2 cup
can would mean 1/2 cup less kibble. If you want him to reduce his
weight a bit, you can also supplement with our Synergy mix. It is a
dehydrated vegetable mix that will add more volume to his meal without
the added protein and calories.
Please feel free to contact me with any additional questions.
Thank you,
Julie

Julie Campbell
Canine Caviar Pet Foods, Inc
4131 Tigris Way
Riverside, Ca 92503
Phone 714-223-1800
Fax 714-223-1801
email julie@caninecaviar.com
http://www.caninecaviar.com

[Hound Dog Mom]

Thanks for posting that email – I’ll try that as my last resort. I finally got the form on their website to work and sent my questions and I never received a response. I called their customer service three times today (during business hours – I checked the timezone) and no one answered and their voice mailbox was full. I’m not overly impressed to say the least.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Hershy –

I just heard back from Wellness today actually and, unfortunately, both their Super5Mix Just for Puppy and their Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy Health are too high in calcium.

[Hershy]

Thank you, Pattyvaughn. That makes perfect sense.

So I guess that just leaves the “recognized” question for HDM. : )
“Do you know yet if Wellness Large Breed Puppy will be on your Grain inclusive list? ”
(Although the protein is maybe too low for growing pups).
Somewhere in these posts I thought I saw a guide for ideal nutrition analysis for amounts recommended – above AAFCO) for large breed pups, but I can’t find it? Was there something like that?

Thanks!

[theBCnut]

I’m not HDM but I can answer the “Not recognized” question. AAFCO sets minimum standards for what must be in dog food to sustain life. That doesn’t mean that those things that are not in the AAFCO nutrient profiles are not good to have. Some companies go way beyond the minimums set by AAFCO. Frankly, there in’t a single food I would let my dogs touch that doesn’t go way beyond the minimal standards set by AAFCO. So this company is informing you that they has ingredients that they believe are important, but AAFCO doesn’t even set a minimum for them.

[Hershy]

Hello, again, HDM,
Still searching for the best food to meet quality for a price I can afford. Have ruled out the Kirkland-wasn’t happy with many reviews I read. Wellness Core Puppy is on your list of favorite foods in the “grain free” list.
Do you know yet if Wellness Large Breed Puppy will be on your Grain inclusive list? Calcium (min) is nice and low. I’m leaning toward this one for now. Also wondered what the asterisk comment means relating to food quality. “Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO…” – do they mean these ingredients are of no benefit for the puppy, and a waste to add, or maybe amount of it not enough of to do the job? I realize they are not the bare bones nutrients a dog needs, but why do they put this on the bag? Seems the comment would be more useful on the bag that does NOT have these ingredients? ; ). I think I’m giving this way too much thought..

Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Deboned Whitefish, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Peas, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Salmon Meal (a natural source of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Tomatoes, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil (a natural source of DHA – Docosahexaenoic Acid), Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Salt, Minerals [Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement], Choline Chloride, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation products
Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min.) 26.0%, Crude Fat (min.) 12.0%, Crude Fiber (max.) 4.5%, Moisture (max.) 11.0%, Calcium (min.) 1.0%, Phosphorus (min.) .90%, Vitamin E (min.) 150IU, Omega 6* (min.) 2.5%, Omega 3* (min.) .50%, DHA .137#37;, Beta-Carotene* (min.) 5 mg/kg, Lycopene* (min.) .25 mg/kg, Taurine* (min.) .09%, Total Micro-Organisms* (min.) 20,000,000 CFU/lb. *Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 10 months ago by Hershy.
• This reply was modified 12 years, 10 months ago by Hershy.

[alanysrayne]

Thanks HDM ! I will keep that into consideration. Thanks so much for all your help!

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI alanysrayne –

The calcium guidelines apply to wet food as well if it’s going to be comprising a significant portion (>20%) of your pup’s diet. If you just plan on using a small amount as a topper don’t worry about it too much. As long as you’re keeping it to 20% or less of the meal I’d highly recommend Tripett – it’s a great topper for large breed puppies as it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but low levels of each and dogs love it! It’s not a complete and balanced food though which is why I’d only recommend it as a topper.

[Hound Dog Mom]

I would add Tripett (or just plain meat) to the Orijen or Chicken & Burbank Potato. Both are too high in calcium so if you mix them together it won’t solve anything. You could, however, mix in another brand of a lower calcium food 50:50 with one of those formulas and you’d likely be at (or at least close to) an appropriate level. It would probably be easier to just go with a food that is appropriate though – you’ll have plenty of time to feed Orijen and Acana in the future.

[theBCnut]

None of the Acana formulas are appropriate for LBP. Adding Acana to Orijen would make the calcium even higher.

All Life Stages foods are puppy foods. The AAFCO recognizes 2 nutrient profiles, growth and maintanance. If a food meets the requirements for growth, the manufacturer can choose to have it labeled AllLife Stages.

Meat has phosphorus and not much calcium, so when a kibble has a little too much calcium in it, you can add a little meat without messing up the balance too much.

[alanysrayne]

Feeding a large breed puppy canned food, is there anything that I need to watch out for? I was planning on maybe mixing the wet and dry food together. But I didnt know if there were only certain wet foods that large breeds can have or if its only the dry.

[dogmom]

Hi HDM – do you mean adding the Tripett to the Orijin LBP food? Or would it be better to use half of the Orijin and half of another kibble with less calcium? I was reading the Orijin packaging, and was thinking that while I really like the food for my pup, that I would want to mix it with something….maybe the Acana Chicken & Burbank. I have a friend with GSD pups, and she feeds hers the Acana C&B and thinks it’s great for them. I worry about it because it’s not a puppy food, but it is an all-life-stage food….

Your thoughts on that?

Thanks so much!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Dogmom –

As Patty stated I’m currently in the process of updating the grain-free list and creating a grain-inclusive list. I have already sent inquiries to all companies that have 4 and 5 star puppy foods and am in the process of waiting for the responses to come in. I can tell you, however, none of the Acana formulas are appropriate for large breed puppies. The new Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula is lower in calcium than the previous formula but will not be included on the list – it’s still a tad high. But, to give my honest opinion, if you add 20% or less of an all meat topper or all meat canned food (like Tripett) I think it would be fine.

[EHubbman]

Your best bet would be to read over this thread first and see the suggested Cal/phos levels for large breed pups, then contact the companies to find out the MAX calcium and phosphorus levels and go from there. Like Patty and HDM said, it’s great to find a few foods that work and rotate between them. I personally haven’t seen the numbers for either food, so I’m not much help there. :/

[theBCnut]

It’s true about the Orijen LBP. I don’t know about the Acana.

HDM is in the process of updating her list, but hasn’t finished yet. And she is also making a grain inclusive list.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 10 months ago by theBCnut.

[dogmom]

I saw the list, but later there was also an update that the Orijin Large Breed was good because the calcium level had been lowered – am just checking to make sure that’s true….and wanted an update on the Acana Chicken and Burbank as well if possible

[labgirl]

try emailing:
JBaker@caninecaviar.com

ive emailed before some questions and have received a reply within a few days on a few occasions. hope that helps.

[theBCnut]

Go back to the first page of this thread and read. It explains the REAL issues with feeding large breed puppies. In about the 3rd post, Hound Dog Mom has a google doc that lists good foods that have appropriate calcium levels for LBPs. Pick a few of those foods and rotate between them.

[dogmom]

Am getting a new GSD puppy and trying to decide on food…

Breeder has pup on Iams Large Breed Puppy food, and I was planning on moving to Orijin Large Breed Puppy food, but have been advised to go to Acana Chicken and Burbank instead because lower in protein content and is good for all life stages…..

My adult GDSs are all on Acana Ranchlands, but I don’t think that would work for new pup, so am looking for best alternative.

What is your advice? Should I use the Orijin LBP food, the Acana C&B food, or someone else??

Thanks to all!

[Hershy]

Thank you, Pattyvaughn

[theBCnut]

Haretoday dot com or Mypetcarnivore dot com