[Alina S]

Hey all!

I just made a chicken broth with chicken, celery, carrots, parsnip, ginger root, 4 cloves of garlic, a small 1/4 red onion, and the white part of a leek.

I wanted to give my dog some broth and chicken, but I searched online and found that garlic, onion, and leeks are poisonous to dogs in large amounts. I was wondering if that is true even if all 3 ingredients were boiled and he would only be eating the clear broth and chicken?

I haven’t given him any yet; I just wanted to find out for sure.

Thanks!

[Susan]

Hi Alina, yes it is true, it damages their red blood cells, & can up to 5 days to show symtoms..You’ll have to eat the broth…

[Cyndi]

Here’s an article about bone broth for dogs that’s good for them:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/reasons-your-dog-love-bone-broth/

[DogFoodie]

Hi Alina,

The amount you’re talking about feeding to your pup should be no problem. There are plenty of people here who offer their dogs fresh garlic regularly or supplement with garlic capsules to keep fleas away. The amount that would cause toxicity is alarger quantity than the small amount you’re talking about. Cooking destroys the allicin in garlic and I would therefore assume the same for the onions.

[Bobby dog]

Hi Alana:
I use the recipe for bone broth (or some variation) from the link that Cyndi provided on a regular basis for my dog, check it out!

As Betsy wrote many on DFA use garlic, I am one of them. In the past I have used Springtime’s Bug Off garlic for pets with no health issues. I now feed my dog fresh garlic 3x/week. As usual I run out of it before I get to the grocery store so I have garlic pills on hand to use when I don’t have fresh garlic. Since using fresh garlic or pills, Sentinel, which contains an ingredient to inhibit flea eggs from maturing, and a daily dose of apple cider vinegar this season my dog has been flea free. I have not had to use a spot on treatment this season; first time since I have had Bobby that I haven’t had to. Here’s some links to information and studies about garlic and dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/
http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/bug-off-garlic-dogs/All-Natural-Dog-Supplements

[Bobby dog]

Here’s one more article about garlic and dogs:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-friend-or-foe/

[USA]

Ladies,

I believe that the Sulfides in Garlic, Onions, Leeks, Chives, etc in ANY AMOUNT have an effect on the red blood cells of cats and dogs. I think that at a low exposure the effects are sub-clinical meaning there are no signs of toxicity. But I do believe that the red blood cells are affected at any level of consumption.

I know there is plenty of information out there to support both sides of this debate and I know that plenty of people use garlic for fleas and as a spice in their dog’s food.

I have a dog whose red blood cells are affected by any amount of garlic. She is a rare example of a dog that shows clinical signs of red blood cell damage at any level of consumption. I know she is VERY sensitive to the effects of garlic but her experience has led me down the path of believing that although most dogs are not as sensitive as her that ALL dogs red blood cells are affected by Sulfide ingestion.

So I have provided a couple of links. 1 agrees with me and 1 says that the toxicity of garlic is not affected by cooking.

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/06/the-dangers-of-onion-toxicity/

“The organosulfoxides (sulfurs) in onions, garlic, leeks and chives react with the cell membranes of the red blood cells of dogs, causing the cells to lyse (explode). Cats are even more sensitive to the lytic effects of allium (onion family) toxicosis than dogs.

It is a common myth that a small amount of onions or garlic is not harmful to dogs. In fact, many homemade dog treat recipes include garlic powder as a flavoring because dogs tend to love it so much. Dogs are more tolerant of garlic than onions, and small amounts of either often do not produce effects that are noticed.

However, I believe that any amount of garlic or onions is unacceptable, because it always causes damage on a cellular level, whether or not we notice the effects of the damage and label it “toxic.”

A small amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause a small amount of subclinical hemolysis. That is, a small amount will cause a small amount of red blood cell explosion. Dogs need their red blood cells to oxygenate their brains and other important organs.

A moderate amount of garlic or onion ingestion will probably cause your pet to feel light headed and lethargic, which may go unnoticed.

A large amount of garlic or onion ingestion will cause clinical signs that are felt by the dog and noticed by the people. Signs may take several days to develop.”

Regarding cooking:

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/toxicology/a/onion-toxicity.htm

“The chemicals found in cooked, raw or dehydrated onions begin reacting with a dog’s metabolism soon after consumption, preventing the red blood cells from carrying oxygen to the body. Within a few hours, the patient becomes lethargic and has trouble breathing. Other clinical signs may include dark-colored urine or a yellowing of the gums (called icterus). The patient may also vomit up the onions or other foods consumed from the trash.”

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

Nice post! I agree completely with everything that you wrote.

[USA]

Thank you aimee!

[losul]

So I was wondering Aimee and U.S.A.

Do you and your families eat onions and/or garlic in any amount?

[USA]

Hi losul

I eat onions and garlic

[Alina S]

Hi to the mods– Just wanted to say that I reported this thread on accident, sorry!

[pugmomsandy]

LOL! Ok. I’ve almost done that a couple times. I don’t think “report” was always an option. It was added not too long ago.

[aimee]

Hi losal,

My husband is very sensitive to onion and garlic so we are a garlic/onion free house. But when he is out of town…..

I also eat grapes and raisins. In case you were wondering.

[losul]

Aimee, I would guess your husband has an intolerance, or even an allergy to garlic? I know some folks with those. I’m sure dogs can easily be the same.

Hehe, I admit, the first thing that came to mind was grapes, when you agreed with USA. But I wasn’t thinking whether you or your family ate them. I just thought it was ironic how you could defend a companies’ use, (who was it Hill’s or Purina?) of grape pomace in a dog food, but feel any and all garlic is unacceptable.

No, I just thought I’d ask, because virtually all mammals, including cats, dogs, rats, primates, humans, even ungulates and birds, have the same susceptibilities to the toxicities from over consumption of garlic, onions, etc. Granted humans have built more tolerance from the long history of consuming them, but they still can and do get all the side effects up to, and including oxidative stress and anemia. Yet vast numbers of people around the world still chose to consume them anyway over the ages for their medicinal properties.

Ever wonder why vampires have an intense fear of garlic? Vampires were thought to be those who have anemia, or other blood disorders- the pale skin, photosensitivity, yellow eyes, etc. They required the blood of healthy others in order to “sustain” them. A big dose of garlic would not be good news at all for the anemic vampire. Some sects and religions even weeded out the vampires amongst them, by those who would not partake.

Anyway, my stance is that dog food companies probably shouldn’t include garlic in their foods. I don’t really appreciate garlic or many other “medicinal botanicals” in many of the “higher” end foods such as sage extract, juniper berry extract. ginseng, gingko, licorice root, anjelica root, marigold, chamomile, etc. Many or all of them can cause allergic reactions for thing. They just don’t belong in dog foods, especially where someone might be feeding them 100% everyday for long periods, IMO. And one with grape pomace in it, well I would automatically reject it as completely unacceptable.

That said, I don’t take any issue with a person adding garlic to their dog’s food, as long they understand the possible allergic reactions, intolerances, or in larger quantities, toxicities, and they treat it as a controlled dosage rather than a food item. I’ve been adding potent crushed whole raw garlic to Turbo’s food at the rate of about 1 and 1/2 extra large cloves or about 6 grams/week, for probably 4 or 5 months now, and intend to keep doing so. For us, the probable benefits exceed what I perceive to be very small risk.

[crazy4cats]

Well said, Losul. What is funny is the more I learn about dog food, the more I lean towards more simple dry kibble without many ingredients. That way I have more control over toppers and supplements that are added. When I first started, I was looking for kibble that had everything for the cheapest price. It’s too bad that a lot of limited ingredient foods have 1/2 the stuff, but twice the price! Lol! I too, have been feeding garlic for the last couple of months without incident so far. It’s funny you brought up vampires. I always say I feed my dogs garlic to keep away parasites, mosquitoes and vampires. No one has found any humor in it so far. Just funny looks!

[Naturella]

Losul, I myself was thinking of adding some crushed whole raw garlic to Bruno’s food every once in a while. How much do you think I should add and how often? Bruno is 13.5 lbs (or so) now.

P.S. My family LOVES onions and garlic, cooked or raw (especially raw, with a hot (tripe/any) soup with feta cheese and vinegar, and some rustic, crusty bread… OMMMMNOMNOM!!! But I digress… Sorry!).

• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by Naturella.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by Naturella.

[Susan]

Hi, I joined a yahoo group called K9Kitchen, someone asked a question about using Garlic for their dogs & Monica Segal wrote, Garlic can cause Hemolytic Anemia, the amount that effects one dog can differ from the next……

[Bobby dog]

Naturella, I want to come over for dinner.

Well said Losul and C4c; everything in moderation. I agree that everyone should be aware that any ingredient is a potential allergan for your pet. I also understand people not wanting to feed garlic to their pets; especially if your pet has experienced an allergic reaction. I also feed garlic to Bobby and fed it to my previous dog as well without incident. I used to feed it to my horses, but I did not see any results in regards to repelling flies so I stopped.

I very much agree with the idea of a simple pet food recipe! Spending 20 minutes to read a pet food label is tedious.

[aimee]

losal,

It isn’t that he has an intolerance or allergic reaction… he just can’t stand the smell. It makes him nauseous. Once, when out with a friend, I ate a meal with garlic in the sauce. As I recall he slept on the couch the next three nights.: )

I wouldn’t say all mammals have the same susceptibility. Cats are much more susceptible than dogs and I didn’t find information on garlic causing anemia in people. In fact when I ran the search terms anemia and garlic in pubmed I came across papers describing garlic use to treat anemia ( sickle cell) in people. But I suppose if you ate massive quantities it could ??? Do you have a link you could share describing. The difference in how garlic acts in different species has to do with the number of sulfhydryl groups in their hemoglobin. Cats have eight,, dogs four and people two.

I don’t mind a tiny bit of garlic/onion in dog food as a flavoring agent, but I’d never feed cloves of garlic to my dog. I’m unconvinced of any benefits and aware of the consequences. In regards to grape pumice, after researching it a bit, its presence in food doesn’t concern me in the least.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by aimee.

[Naturella]

Bobby Dog, if you’re ever in GA in the next 2 or so years, feel free to let me know, you got a hot meal from us! 😉

Also, Losul or anyone – if you have experience with feeding raw garlic to your dog, please help me out with dosage and frequency for a 13.5-lb terrier mix who plays outside and goes on long walks daily.

Thank you! 🙂

[losul]

C4C, Bobby dog, Thnx. I agree about getting more back to basics. Hopefully more manufactur’s will lean more that way in the future. It’s mind boggling to me how many dogs are having allergies, intolerances, etc., and how many folks have so much trouble finding foods that are agreeable, out of the hundreds of foods out there. Is shouldn’t be that way, and why do so many dogs seem to have these allergies in the first place, I think it’s unnatural. 10 years and more ago, I thought it was very rare for dogs to have allergies, now it seems to be very commonplace. (or maybe I was just in the dark back then, well I know I was in the dark, lol. ). All of the botanicals in Origen are what have kept me from trying so far. C4C, I hear ya on the funny looks!

Naturella, I hesitate to advise you how much to give your dog and whether or not to give it at all, I almost feel like it would be medical advice. For one thing there’s such a variance in the size of cloves, and another some dogs would be more sensitve than others. The health and and nutrition of your dog could also be a factor. Your dog is very small, and only about 1/3 the weight of mine. I give mine about 1 1/2 large cloves per week, they average about 4 grams each clove. It’s crushed and mixed in with 4 days worth of food. For the next 4 days batch, I leave garlic out of it, the next, garlic again, and so forth. I think I give him less than most sites advocating it advise, I would never give him so much that he has would have garlic breath to much extent, and well, if I would ever notice that he would actually begin to exude the odor from his skin, I feel that would be entirely too much and could be dangerous. If you do decide to use garlic so, just to be precautionary, start out tiny, like just a small slice of a clove, and make sure there isn’t any kind of intolerance or allergic reaction first. I wouldn’t think 1 small/medium sized clove a week, distributed in several meals would be too much for your dog. I know I wasn’t much help, sorry…. BTW, I can almost smell the food a cookin! MMmmmm garlic toast, Luv feta cheese, olive oil, and balsamic vinegar on my tomato slices!

Aimee, Wow you exuded garlic fragrances for 3 days after just eating 1 meal with some? Are you sure you didn’t take a large doggy bag home with you and indulge several times? 😀

I didn’t mean to imply that all mammals have equal susceptabilities, just that they have the same suceptibilties.

I think the papers desribing garlic use for sickle cell anemia used aged garlic extract (AGE). Many of the compounds and properties were changed by the aging or fermenting process, no? At any rate garlic and it’s many compounds have a whole lot of medicinal possibilities wouldn’t you think?

It’s hard to come by actual research on humans, it’d be very unethical to try to induce hemolytic anemia in humans. There seems to be lots of it on various mammals, cats, rats/mice, dogs, cows, horses, sheep, birds, etc. Some of what I’ve seen is merely anecdotal, such as a professor and some students informally volunteered to eat an abnormal amount of onions ( i think it was 2 medim/large, cooked, daily) for a period of 5 days, they all displayed physical signs of anemia, and upon blood testing indeed showed that to be the case.

Here is a study where the researchers where attempting to test the effects of certain native vegetables that could mitigate garlics unwanted effects on Nigerians. The actual study was done with rats, but as I said….;

“Garlic (Allium sativum) is popularly consumed in Nigeria because of its health benefit in treatment and management of several disease conditions. However, excessive intake of garlic may cause hemolytic anemia. This project sought to investigate the ability of some commonly consumed tropical green leafy vegetables—namely, Amaranthus cruentus, Baselia alba, Solanum macrocarpon, Ocimum gratissimum, and Corchorus olitorius—to prevent garlic-induced hemolytic anemia.”

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2004.7.498

———————————————-

Is this the study that brought about AVMA’s determination that garlic should not be fed to dogs?

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2000.61.1446

Objective—To determine whether dogs given garlic extract developed hemolytic anemia and to establish the hematologic characteristics induced experimentally by intragastric administration of garlic extract.

Animals—8 healthy adult mixed-breed dogs.

Procedure—4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight <b>(5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days.</b> The remaining 4 contol dogs received water instead of garlic extract. Complete blood counts were performed, and methemoglobin and erythrocyte-reduced glutathione concentrations, percentage of erythrocytes with Heinz bodies, and percentage of eccentrocytes were determined before and for 30 days after administration of the first dose of garlic extract. Ultrastructural analysis of eccentrocytes was performed.

Results—Compared with initial values, erythrocyte count, Hct, and hemoglobin concentration decreased to a minimum value on days 9 to 11 in dogs given garlic extract. Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte- reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes were also detected in these dogs. However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to
dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs. (Am J Vet Res 2000;61:1446–1450)
—————

Some notes about this; At the rate I give Turbo, it would take 2 years to give my dog the equivalent of what the researchers gave these dogs all in 1 week. The second paragraph gives plenty enough to be concerned about, but “However, no dog developed hemolytic anemia”

————————————————————–
I’m amazed you would not be concerned about feeding a dog grape pomace, when as far as I know, the causitive agent of grapes/kidney failure has yet to be determined.

[Cyndi]

Naturella, here is an article from Dog’s Naturally about garlic:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/garlic-for-dogs-poison-or-medicine/

[Naturella]

Losul and Cyndi,

Thank you both for the wonderful information! You guys are awesome and super knowledgeable as many on this forum!

I think I will just do 1/3 of a clove of garlic every other day or so for Bruno, or maybe 1/2 clove twice a week, something like that, and see how it goes. I feed kibble with THK in a thick soup-like mix, so I can easily mix crushed raw garlic in there and feed it. Hope he is not allergic and that he still eats his food. I also hope that this will just be of general help to his health and not a detriment. So we will see…

Thank you all again! 🙂

[Bobby dog]

Aimee:
I had an old boyfriend who would do nothing but complain after I ate at my favorite restaurant. I love garlic and could not help but ask the chef to add extra to my food. He could not stand the garlic odor emanating from me and it would be an issue for at least two days after my meal. I came to realize I would rather be with the garlic than him in the end.

Losul:
I am also leery of trying high end brands with a long list of ingredients. I currently have a tight budget to follow with pet food. When I first changed Bobby’s diet I really wanted to be able to spend $80-$100 on a bag of food and $2 or $3 on canned but I just didn’t have the funds. After almost a year of researching kibbles, reading customer reviews, and reading the many common complaints customers have with high-end brands I am now content with my budget. I eventually want to make homemade meals for Bobby I just don’t have the time to research the subject in order to do it properly. Right now I am doing the next best thing IMO by adding fresh foods using the ABC diet as a guide; I am very happy with the $2.95 I spent for downloading this guide.

Naturella:
Thanks for the invite! I love a good garlicy meal. I feed garlic 3x/wk every other day or two; sometimes garlic pills when I don’t have fresh. I have been looking for all of my bookmarked pages in regards to what I researched on fresh garlic and I don’t know what file I hid them in. I did find the article to the link that Cyndi posted for you, but no additional information. There are some other links I posted in the beginning of this thread to some more info if you are interested. I also remember reading HDM and BCn’s recommendations on feeding fresh garlic on one of these threads or forum posts. Losul posted a good deal of info for you and you could always track down HDM or BCn for info from others feeding garlic. I believe BCn is absent from the forum due to family obligations so I am not sure how much spare time she has these days to catch up with DFA, but I have seen some posts from her recently. If you are worried about possible sensitivities just don’t do it. Use your best judgement as you always do for taking care of your pup!

[Kelly S]

Firstly, rosemary, oregano, fennel and sage are neurotoxins for dogs. Most or all of these herbs are found in virtually all store bought broths, as is onions and garlic. DNM specifically says in another more responsible article that garlic should ONLY be organic and freshly crushed and in specific amounts per body weight. My dogs vets have always said absolutely NO to garlic period. Small amounts accumulate over time and anything that is a known neurotoxin for dogs should be avoided regardless of whether or not you happen to “see” any reactions. What reactions would you even recognize until it’s possibly too late?

As for Dogs Naturally Magazine, they are a fine resource for general education HOWEVER it is still not the same as individualized treatment for a vet. All this info online is very generalized and there are always other things to consider. For example, many dogs are having seizures these days and any of these ingredients are an absolute NO for them. Therefore, bone broth must be homemade and frankly, in hindsight I wish I’d never fed these ingredients to my dog to begin with!

Lastly, these forums are dangerous for the very reason that everyone is speculating and not an expert and really don’t KNOW what their talking about.

[anonymous]

@ Kelly S
I agree with you. However, there are people that come to internet forums and ask for veterinary medical advice specifically to avoid going to the veterinarian.
Then there are some that think they know more than their veterinarians and choose to disregard what the vet that has examined their pet recommends.

If you tell then “Go to the vet” or “Listen to your vet” they become annoyed with you.
It’s frustrating :-/

PS: And how about the ones that say “I can’t afford the vet” 😱

[anonymous]

I hope this site helps those that may be struggling with the cost of veterinary care http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/trouble_affording_veterinary_care.html

[Author]

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