[aimee]

I have used Grandma Lucy’s. I’d equate the consistency with oatmeal. Grandma Lucy’s is the company who has illegal labeling and is being sold illegally in my state/the state feed control official.

The company will not disclose nutritional information about their food. I asked for a phosphorus level and was promised it over and over and over again but never got it. The phos level on the label is below AAFCO minimum for maintenance, yet the food is labeled as all life stages.

I purchased the food because I wanted the packaging. In my opinion it has a very strong garlic odor so I only feed it very occasionally as a topper .

[aimee]

Haleybop… So sorry for your loss….

Ii feed freeze dried raw both as a topper and as treats. I’ve also used Ziwi Peak as treats.

I’ve never had a problem mixing different food types together.

[aimee]

IMO….Lack of enforcement. As I understand it at the state level there is one official to cover all animal feed sold in the state. Depending on the state, and I’d guess funding, there are likely lots of holes in the system. Additionally, I think smaller companies are more likely to fly under the radar. Months ago I reported an illegal label to my state official. The official agreed and said the food was being sold in the state illegally….. but it is still being sold here. Shrug

Products sold for tear staining that contain tylosin have been sold for years but from this it looks like it is just recently that the FDA is acting on it http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm411975.htm

[aimee]

Thanks Dori,

It still appears that BDN is in violation of labeling laws. I don’t see that the FDA makes any exceptions for “samples”.

How are the ingredients listed on the label? Are they as on the website? If so the company is in violation.

[aimee]

Kristin C,

i have used Honest Kitchen Preference. Readily identifiable food elements were present in the stool. The sweet potato came out looking identical to when it went in. The pumpkin was not identified in the stool, cabbage was minimally digested, apple was significantly digested peel were identified. Cooking the food solved the digestion issue. I posted on the HK thread complete with pics if you are interested.

[aimee]

“This lets me know that BDN is not following the regulations for labeling dog foods. That is not a good sign for me” + 1 USA Dog Treats.

No information on the label WOW just WOW!!!

[aimee]

Dori. I still have one new in packaging. It is about 5 inches long and 1 inch wide give or a take a bit. If you want it you can have it to use at your own risk.

[aimee]

I’m not a fan of Himalayan Dog Chews. I could see a dog breaking a tooth on them, or swallowing the product whole. I was given a few of them and did offer them to my dogs while I held them to prevent swallowing. The Lab crunched it like a chip! It fractured into multiple pieces! I next tried it with my Crested. Typical of the hairless variety he has many missing teeth yet within seconds he too had cracked it into shards. Into the garbage they went!

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

You bring up a very interesting point.

I’ve never felt comfortable with the company and as such wouldn’t ever feed their diets. When the company reps posted on DFA I found their responses to my inquiries to be lacking in basic courtesy. As I recall, they would not disclose the calcium levels in their food and said something to the effect that a posted ratio was adequate information for anyone wanting information on the mineral levels in their foods. It made no sense really.

They had a statement on their site which included a reference. I couldn’t find that reference anyplace and asked for further information as to where I could find the original document. I found their response rude. As I recall they replied saying they posted all the information I’d need. I did eventually find what I think was the reference. As I remember it, BDN had the title words in a different order and the original document didn’t support their statement. I can no longer find the statement in question on their site.

I find their ingredient list disturbing. I don’t recognize the terms as being AAFCO compliant. As I have never purchased the food I don’t know if the ingredient panel on the actual product is the same as on their site. Perhaps someone who has this product can tell me what the label states.

I’m quite certain AAFCO forbids descriptors like “grade A” and “Wholesome” Furthermore, there is no such thing as grade A beef. Beef is graded as U.S.D.A. Prime, U.S.D.A. Choice, U.S.D.A. Select etc. Poultry is graded A, B, and C depending on the presence of broken bones and exposed muscle.

Their use of comma’s and parenthesis shows lack of attention to detail.
Wholesome air dried, Angus beef (grade A), green beef tripe, liver, naturally fermented vegetables (sweet potato, carrot, collard greens, kale, broccoli, freeze dried potato, mango, apple, coconut flakes, blueberry, spinach, kelp, parsley.

When a company messes up on the basics I can’t ever trust them to get the complicated stuff right.

[aimee]

Hi Haleybop,

In regards to adding an unbalanced topper ( lean meat) to a balanced kibble, veterinary nutritionists recommend to limit unbalanced foods to 10% of the total caloric intake.

For example, if your dog needs 400 calories to maintain weight, you would feed 360 calories as kibble, and 40 calories from an unbalanced addition.

I think feeding twice a day is for our convenience. More often is fine. Some people leave the food available all the time and the dog grazes throughout the day. I’ve never seen it reported that this causes any type of adverse effects on health.

Don’t feel guilty for not feeding raw. After thoroughly looking at that issue from multiple angles I concluded that it wasn’t in the best interest of my dogs and family.

[aimee]

Dori,
I think that is a very good point… especially if the the boss is paying the employees for their time.

Akari 32,
If you are going to bring up particular issues be well prepared. For example, if I was at the meeting with you and you asked about a hydrolyzed diet causing harm due to freed glutamate these are things as your co worker I may ask you: What do you see as the significant difference between glutamate being freed before ingestion vs soon after since glutamate is freed through digestion? I may also ask you to explain that effects of dose and route of administration. When given independently in high doses as a gavage or when injected glutamate can indeed cause harm but those same effects were not be duplicated when fed as part of a diet. As this exposure is at physiologic levels and dietary how would that research be relevant in this situation? From an evolutionary point why if free glutamate is so harmful is it abundant in breast milk?

I’m just thinking out loud here… make sure you understand your concerns, and you are well prepared.

[aimee]

Hi Chris,

The only way to diagnose adverse food reaction is via an elimination diet. This mean taking a diet history and then picking sources that your dog hasn’t been exposed to. It is very difficult to do an elimination diet correctly. You must ensure the dog doesn’t get any other food/flavoring sources besides the test diet for 12 weeks. No flavored medications, toys, chews, cat box “snacks”, scavenged food outside Nada! And you must clear any existing skin infections.

Limited ingredient foods purchased at pet stores have been found to contain proteins not listed on the bag. They are not suitable for use for doing this important diagnostic test!! Once diagnosed you may choose to ” challenge” the dog to see what the dog reacts to. It then may be possible to find a OTC diet to trial.

I would only use home cooked, vet diets made for this purpose, or possible Rayne nutrition for an elimination diet.

If the dog is reactive to the base protein in the hydrolyzed diet there is a chance he/she will react to the hydrolyzed version. Therefore if a dog has been exposed to chicken before then hydrolyzed chicken diet may not be the ideal choice for a trial.

If your dog has environmental allergies in addition to adverse food reaction it will be harder to tell if there is a positive response to food trial if done when concurrently exposed to the environmental allergens.

Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi Mary,

This article would be a good place to start for learning on how to do a proper food trial, they are very difficult to do correctly: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2499 Your vet should be able to help you. You need to clear the infections in order to know if the trial is working. Antibiotics and anti-fungal treatments are often necessary as secondary infections are common.

Doing a proper trial is $$ in a large breed. Start with a good diet history. Ingredient sources in the new diet should not only be something your dog hasn’t eaten before but ideally not closely related to ingredients that have been fed before. For example if the dog has been exposed to beef you would likely want to avoid bison. If the dog has been exposed to chicken you’d want to avoid turkey or to be safe any type of fowl.

When doing a trial only use foods from the vet or homemade (you must be very careful not to cross contaminate). This is where the cost comes in. Limited ingredient diets found in stores have been found to have protein sources not listed on the bag.

Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi C4C,

All the Labs I’ve had have been on the low end for energy requirements. After puppy hood they have been on weight management/weight loss foods. I use a food that is a high nutrient / calorie ratio to ensure they met their nutrient needs when eating few calories.

[aimee]

Hi Robert M,

From their website they allow Calcium levels up to 1.7% in their puppy diet. This is equivalent to about 5 grams Ca/1000 kcals. Most veterinary nutritionists recommend that calcium for large breed growth should be about 3 grams/1000kcals. The NRC places the safe upper limit for Ca at 4.5 grams/1000kcals, which this diet exceeds.

It is not a food I’d personally feed to my large breed puppy. Personally, I look for a diet with a Ca less than 3.5 grams/1000kcals and a diet that has passed AAFCO feeding trials.

I raised my lab on Purina Pro Plan large breed puppy and couldn’t be happier with the results. Most times when I mention that I raised my pup on Pro Plan someone chimes in about how awful the food is.: )

It really is a matter of what you hold important to you when judging a dog food. I want to see that the company has veterinary nutritionists on staff and has raised large breed pups on the diet while monitoring growth and skeletal development. Purina went far and beyond the min AAFCO requirements for a feeding trial and I was impressed with the amount and type of monitoring the company did in regards to monitoring the growth and development of the Lab pups involved in the trial.

I’ve read extensively on nutrition and the one common factor I find is that nutritionists state you can not tell the quality of a food by looking at an ingredient list. The ingredient list of Pro Plan doesn’t look “real pretty” but since the ingredient list is of less importance to me than other criteria when I judge a food I didn’t hesitate to use it.

[aimee]

Hi Tom,

Labs do love to eat don’t they? Ask your vet if Science Diet Perfect Weight or Slim and Healthy would be appropriate for your dog (It has a higher protein level and lower caloric density than their mature line and is formulated for weight loss) or ask if you should change to a vet therapeutic food.

It seems like your Lab, like mine, has fairly low energy requirements. A food with a high nutrient/calorie ratio may be needed to ensure that your dog’s nutrient needs are met when taking in fewer calories.

For my Lab Ive used Wellness core reduced fat,and Pro Plan weight management for weight maintenance. When I needed her to lose a few pounds I used Royal Canin high protein calorie control.

You can find good information on weight loss here https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/Weight_Management_Guidelines.pdf Good Luck!

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

To clarify, I have no idea which foods do and do not meet AAFCO’s profile. Additionally, in no way did I mean for my inquiry to denigrate all of Hound Dog Mom’s work in any way.

I am questioning the nutritional information that companies pass on to the consumer. In conversation with several companies Customer Service departments I find their response to show lack of understanding of basic math in regards to nutrition.

I’m not sure where the problem lies but it makes me very nervous and I don’t feel comfortable feeding foods from companies whose information doesn’t “add up”

[aimee]

Hi Daria,

interestingly enough, Ca/Ph ratio isn’t even discussed in the discussion of diet for growing large/giant breeds in Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 2012. Nor is a specific ratio mentioned in recommendations for large breed growth. Dr. Larsen ACVN in an article on feeding large breed puppies writes “The ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be approximately 1:1 to 1.5; however, absolute amounts of each nutrient appear to be more important than the ratio per se.8 Clinical experience supports this, as developmental problems with extreme ratios in the presence of adequate dietary concentrations of calcium and phosphorus have not been reported.”

Based on those sources I personally don’t draw a line in the sand in regards to ratios during large breed growth.

[aimee]

Hi Liz,

If all you are reading is that Science diet is so horrible then you are not reading everything:). For example when Dr. Remillard, a board certified veterinary nutritionist was asked which dog food she would feed she replied “It’s kind of a race to the top between Royal Canin, Purina and Hill’s for me….” petdietsdotcom/Ask-the-Nutritionist. Dr Wynn, also a board certified veterinary nutritionist gave a nod to Science Diet in her article on large breed puppy nutrition.

Good guide rates Science Diet Adult Toy and Small breed dog food 9.2/10 in the health category.

When zoos choose to use a commercial dog/cat food for the valuable animals in their care you will find Science Diet on the menu.

If open to the idea that veterinary and PhD nutritionists use different criteria to evaluate food vs many internet posters you will find that Science Diet is held in high regard by professionals in nutrition.

I have fed Science Diet products in the past and currently am using one of their products. I’m confident in my choice and in the nutrition it provides.

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

I paraphrased a proposed mechanism. I think we can agree that the cause of pancreatitis is not well understood. And yes it is the fatty acids, peptides and AA which come from the digestion of intact protein and fats that stimulate CCK.

I don’t see it as incorrect to have said “Protein though also stimulates CCK release.” as protein is the source of AA and peptides. The author also wrote “protein” in place of AA and peptides. (caps added by me) “PROTEIN is the second most important nutrient in STIMULATING CCK, so VERY HIGH PROTEIN DIETS SHOULD ALSO BE AVOIDED especially in the feline patient”

To further quote ” Some commercial treats can be very high in fat and protein, especially the meaty ones and should be avoided.” and again in the summary in regards to chronic pancreatitis “Very high levels of dietary protein should also be avoided.”

The exact mechanism of pancreatitis isn’t known which is why I wouldn’t say fat causes pancreatitis or that protein causes pancreatitis. The point of my post was currently it is being recommended to avoid both high fat and high protein in dogs with recurrent problems.

To see which intact proteins were tested you’d have to go back to the original research. For myself it isn’t that important to know as it doesn’t change the recommendation to avoid “Dry meat treats (jerky)” in dogs with chronic pancreatitis.

[aimee]

Hi sue66b,

My dog who almost died from pancreatitis was fed Iams/Eukaneuba restricted fat.

[aimee]

Hi Eric,

I nearly lost a dog to pancreatitis. Scary stuff. Glad you found a diet that is working for your boy. Take a good diet history of everything your guy eats. Calories from “treats” shouldn’t be more than 10 % total diet calories. Trim back if they exceed this. Excess calories lead to weight gain. Research doesn’t support that the common belief that carbs and sugar cause weight gain in the absence of excess calories.

[aimee]

Hi Dori and LabsRawsome,

Experimentally compounds that mimic the hormone CCK result in pancreatitis. In these studies high amounts are given. The most potent dietary stimulation of CCK is fat. Protein though also stimulates CCK release.

From the table in Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 2012 on foods to avoid with chronic pancreatitis “Dry meat treats ( jerky)” The text also cautions against feeding diets very high in protein to patients with a history of pancreatitis.

Hope this helps explain why Patch doesn’t do well with jerky treats.

[aimee]

Yup nine.. I had a bunch and then I bought a Kong Time which came with 4. That item was a house saver, so sad they don’t make them anymore. It held 4 Kongs and dispensed them randomly over 4-8 hours your choice. If it jammed and didn’t dispense when I was gone there would be a new hole in the wall. Some people keep track of their child’s growth by pencil marks on the door jam.. we kept track of her growth by height on the wall that the wallboard was eaten LOL. Hee hee Brooke ate the chair rung when I thought she was “napping” Puppies….

[aimee]

Hi Michael,

I’d never head of that plan before. Interesting that she recommended those two brands. I’ve always had Labs and used to show them. My show pal showed Mastiffs. I’ve raised my pups on Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy and she used Eukaneuba LBP.

When I attended a Mastiff national specialty I asked each breeder I saw what food they recommended for Mastiff pups. Each one said Eukaneuba LBP.

The Lab breeders I got my pups from and others I knew from the show circuit all used Pro Plan.

Interesting that this plan rotates between these two brands.

I’ve always had good results with Pro Plan.

[aimee]

Hi Dori,

Just wanted to say I got quite the chuckle out of the recommendation to have 2 Kong so one is always ready. It is great advice! The reason it caused me to chuckle is that when Brooke was young two wasn’t enough… nor was four or six… I ended up with nine yes nine Kongs! Still to this day remember hubby going into the freezer and asking “Who used the last Kong and didn’t refill?”

I would line them up in coffee mugs to fill them I really thought the company should make a rack for that purpose. She ate most of her food out of Kongs yet the little stinker still would munch on the wall board.

[aimee]

Carpet chewing could be due to any number of things. Off the top of my head in that age bracket I’d consider investigative chewing, attention seeking behavior, separation distress, barrier frustration and medical/pica.

Details as to when it occurs what you do when it occurs what areas are being targeted can all give you clues. I wouldn’t necessarily equate carpet chewing with a vitamin deficiency.

I’ve seen Nu vet… wasn’t impressed. I think it is a multi- level marketing venture???. I’ve seen breeders not guarantee their pups unless you buy the vitamins using a code that credits them for the sale. Really rubs me the wrong way.

[aimee]

Hi CW,

Keep in mind that just because the vet hasn’t found anything doesn’t mean it isn’t there. My little guy had GI problems that started with not eating well and he dropped weight because of it. He would vomit occasionally and have loose stool. Initial testing, blood work and radiographs, was normal..kept looking, his ultrasound revealed abnormalities. We got resolution with diet from vet….after trying home cooking and limited OTC diets. He is on RC venison and potato. If your dog does respond to ZD I’d keep him on for awhile as in months before I tried something else.

[aimee]

That looks like an excellent choice! I hope you can get in soon I heard it can sometimes be a wait to see a specialist. If so ask for the name of a trainer Dr Levine would recommend to work with until she can see you. If there are any Karen Prior Clicker trainers in your area that could be a place to start. https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer?source=hpsb

Carpet chewing .. that could be a lot of things …

Good Luck I look forward to an update!

[aimee]

Betsy and USA,

Thanks for the kind words. I have learned so much about working with aggression due to my teacher… Lil Jack

[aimee]

Hi Dori,

In regards to diet I was looking at it from a perspective of nutrient deficiency vs an adverse food reaction. So I interpreted what the OP said as her vet doesn’t think it was from nutrient deficiency. I don’t disagree that it could be adverse food reaction but it doesn’t seem typical.

[aimee]

Hi Omayra,

Please stop all those techniques mentioned. It is well known that they increase aggression which you unfortunately have discovered. http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf IMO the person you consulted with is responsible for and should beheld liable for the bite. At minimum I’d ask for a full refund. ( Getting off soapbox)

Please download and read the statements on dominance and punishment from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior http://avsabonline.org/resources/position-statements

I took a look at the vet site you linked too… I not convinced she understands behavior as she has classified excessive mounting as hypersexuality which would be a very rare cause. Also though she is a member of many organizations none of them pertain to behavior which leads me to believe she isn’t active in the field.

Being in NY you have a lot of options for a veterinary behaviorist. You may want to shop around a bit as it may be cheaper to go outside of NYC proper.

[aimee]

Hi Omayra,

This sounds like a very serious problem. I’d recommend that you see a veterinary behaviorist http://www.dacvb.org/about/member-directory/
If you live in a location without a boarded veterinary behaviorist than look here for a veterinarian with special interest in behavior. http://avsabonline.org/resources/find-consult-all/ For some reason the search function isn’t picking up a lot of the people in my area so you may want to scroll through all the listings yourself.

It is of great concern that your dog’s behavior has significantly gotten worsened after the consult. What advice have you been given? Has your pet had a through medical exam including blood work? If this were my dog I’d want to make sure there isn’t a liver shunt considering the breed mix/age group.

If medical causes are ruled out the veterinarian may discuss early intervention with drugs if appropriate.

Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi Dori,

Perhaps this can help you understand why a vet may choose to put a dog with an unknown skin eruption/rash on antibiotics. http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/8.27.pdf

This is a diagnostic tree for skin eruptions written by a board certified veterinary dermatologist. Note that the first diagnostic steps all converge on doing an antibiotic trial. The response to antibiotics is then used to guide further tests and help rule in/rule out other causes. Certainly we don’t have all the information involved in the vets decision to use antibiotic but I wouldn’t fault this vet in any way for choosing to recommend them.

Also the OP said the vet did not think it was diet ( I saw you posted you think it is “IMHO your vet is mistaken. It is the diet” not sure that is what you meant to say) but recommended a nutritional consult. In my mind this is a very reasonable recommendation. The vet herself/himself doesn’t have the databases, time, nor expertise to ensure this dog’s needs are being met. In that case it is reasonable to recommend the owner to consult with someone who can evaluate well. There are some ACVN that will balance raw diets for their clients. The difficulty comes in that many food item used by raw feeders do not have nutrient profiles established for them.

[aimee]

Hi Chuckles,

To answer your question about protein…. I don’t have a reference right off hand but I have seen it reported as a quick “down and dirty” estimation to use 1 gram/lb for dogs and 2 grams/lb for cats. This provides a lot more protein than NRC nutrient recommended allowance.

For example my Lab weighs 68 lbs. NRC min requirement for protein is 2.62 x body weight in kg to the 3/4 power. For my 68 lb lab that calculated out to 34 grams of protein. NRC min req assumes a really high digestibility and an ideal amino acid profile.

The NRC recommended allowance is 3.28 X body weight in kg to the 3/4 power. For my Lab that calculates out to ~43 grams protein.

Diets formulated for dogs whose medical needs require no excess protein over metabolic needs are formulated close to these levels.

But for a dog without restrictions protein is usually fed at higher levels and by using the 1 gram/lb “rule” at 68 grams protein you can see that this is more than adequate assuming a decent digestibility and AA profile. Dogs etc don’t have a protein requirement so much as they have amino acid requirements.

In regards to fat, this is really dog to dog variable. My labs have always been “easy keepers” meaning a few calories goes a long way. I tend to stick with fat levels around 10-12 % allowing them to eat a larger volume of food. Also of the three macronutrients, protein carb and fat, fat is the most efficiently retained by the body as fat. Calories though are key for body condition as excess calories from any source result in fat storage.

[aimee]

Hi James P,

How well a dog does or doesn’t do with a particular diet is independent of the star rating. I feed my own dog a 2.5 star rated food and the lower star rating is of no concern to me. On another rating site my 2.5 star rated food is given a 9.2/10 rating in the health category and RC Boxer rates 8.3/10 in the health category. http://www.goodguide.com/products?brand_id%5B%5D=309255-royal-canin&filter=&page=2&utf8=%E2%9C%93

Why the huge difference? The two sites are using different criteria. I’m open to the idea that there are different ways to evaluate a food and I’ve found that veterinary nutritionists and PhD nutritionists use different parameters by which to evaluate foods than do most rating sites.

Interestingly enough I’ve found that when zoo nutritionists use commercial products they often choose Hill’s Science diet products to feed the valuable animals in their care. When I was last at the zoo I saw the keepers measuring out Science Diet in the feeding room. I later verified with the zoo that they purchase this food and was told they chose SD based on the nutrient content and bioavailability of the nutrients.

Dr. Remillard, a boarded veterinary nutritionist, when asked which food she’d feed responded: “It’s kind of a race to the top between Royal Canin, Purina and Hill’s for me….” https://www.petdiets.com/Ask-the-Nutritionist

The criteria important to me may not be what is important to someone else and that’s Ok.

Like others I add fresh into my dog diets as well.

[aimee]

losal,

It isn’t that he has an intolerance or allergic reaction… he just can’t stand the smell. It makes him nauseous. Once, when out with a friend, I ate a meal with garlic in the sauce. As I recall he slept on the couch the next three nights.: )

I wouldn’t say all mammals have the same susceptibility. Cats are much more susceptible than dogs and I didn’t find information on garlic causing anemia in people. In fact when I ran the search terms anemia and garlic in pubmed I came across papers describing garlic use to treat anemia ( sickle cell) in people. But I suppose if you ate massive quantities it could ??? Do you have a link you could share describing. The difference in how garlic acts in different species has to do with the number of sulfhydryl groups in their hemoglobin. Cats have eight,, dogs four and people two.

I don’t mind a tiny bit of garlic/onion in dog food as a flavoring agent, but I’d never feed cloves of garlic to my dog. I’m unconvinced of any benefits and aware of the consequences. In regards to grape pumice, after researching it a bit, its presence in food doesn’t concern me in the least.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by aimee.

[aimee]

Hi losal,

My husband is very sensitive to onion and garlic so we are a garlic/onion free house. But when he is out of town…..

I also eat grapes and raisins. In case you were wondering.

[aimee]

Hi USA Dog Treats,

Nice post! I agree completely with everything that you wrote.

[aimee]

I know a little bit about this diet and can share with you what I know.

Proteins are accepted as the trigger for food hypersensitivity reactions. As such starch would be considered to be reaction free as long as it doesn’t have residual protein. In talking to RC about the quality control in their diets they reported to use DNA fingerprinting on the ingredients before being used and PCR testing as well to ensure unwanted proteins are not present. As an aside in a comprehensive review of allergens corn was the culprit in only 3% of food reactions. Other studies have found higher results but overall it hasn’t been documented as one of the top allergens.

Hypersensitivity reactions from protein chains are correlated to chain length. Shorter length chains are less likely to trigger a reaction and amino acids are reaction free. In this diet the “protein” is hydrolyzed… separated to the AA level. The AA source is from the feather shafts of chickens. RC told me they purchase this AA powder from a source I think in the Netherlands?? RC said this AA powder is the same one that is used in Neocate, a formula for infants with extreme health problems. AAFCO didn’t have a specific ingredient descriptor for this unique ingredient and hydrolyzed poultry by product aggregate in what was used.

While the AA source is from chicken the diets would theoretically be reaction free.

[aimee]

Hi Katie,

I’m a bit biased here because I had a dog with a congenital liver disorder. Unfortunately you don’t have the benefit of comparing your pup to littermates in regard to size and growth rate. However, if the concern is he is small for his age, may not be eating appropriately and drinks a lot if this were my pup I’d do a complete blood panel, a urinalysis and maybe even bile acid panel.

[aimee]

Hi Brenda,

You’ve found some good guidelines. Off the top of my head the only company that comes to mind that may have something to match those requirements in an OTC diet is Hills senior/mature diets. Early renal diets may also be an option Hills G/D, Royal Canin MP and Iams Renal Plus. Home cooking so you can tailor the diet to her needs would be excellent.

Shawna is very against dry diets. I understand her concern but don’t necessarily agree with it.

[aimee]

Hi Brenda,

It seems counterintuitive, but lowering dietary protein lowers the amount lost in the urine. Protein normally isn’t damaging to a kidney but this may be the exception to that rule.

You may want to start by looking at what the protein level is in the diet you are currently using and decrease from there while monitoring UPC. A hint regarding UPC’s: ask your vet about collecting one sample a day for three days in a row then mixing them together and testing to get an average as UPC fluctuate.

[aimee]

As I also do a fair bit of R+ training, I like the training “treats” I use to be small, about the size of a pencil eraser. Otherwise I need it hold together well so I can cut it up without ending up with a handful of crumbs. Uniformity is a bonus. I prefer moist over dry for training but I do use freeze dried liver. I often use fresh foods.

For general “treats” I think they should be portion controlled, calorie controlled and from a company with a strong reputation for quality control.

[aimee]

Food doesn’t cause UTI’s but depending on what is fed it can change urine volumes. High protein/salt foods can increase urine volume.

My Lab had a UTI when young. Like you I noted increased urination as the primary sign. But because increased urination can be caused by several things my vet insisted that she not have any antibiotics until a sample was taken directly from her bladder and cultured.

It concerns me that your dog has been on three medications and none seem to be working. If you didn’t have a culture to verify that bacteria were present and the cause of the symptoms, the reason they may not be working could be because there was no infection causing the signs. Or another possibility is that stones are present, as uncommon as that is in such a young dog.

[aimee]

I too asked Honest Kitchen about the potato issue. I asked to what temperature they are brought to and they never specifically answered that question. They told me they are flash heated and “gently cooked” before dehydration. i didn’t know if that is enough to make them digestible or not as I don’t know how they define cooked as they say their foods are never cooked.

I also wonder if the same processing is used across all potatoes or if they ever use what would be the equivalent of “instant mashed potato” The potato in another companies dehydrated diet looks like instant potato.

I figured I’d ask my dog. I bought some Preference, hydrated it, counted the potato and pumpkin pieces and fed her a meal. I put 20 hydrated sweet potato pieces in and got 20 out virtually unchanged. I may have identified a pumpkin piece too. It was hard to tell but I think the pumpkin was digested. I’ll post the pics on the Honest Kitchen thread.

[aimee]

Naturella… Since you’d trust a holistic vet with education in nutrition you may be interested to know that Susan G. Wynn, DVM, CVA, CVCH, AHG Veterinary Nutrition and Integrative Medicine
recommends Science Diet : ) susanwynn.com/uploads/Large_breed_puppy_nutrition.doc

I’m open to the idea that veterinary nutritionists and PhD nutritionists use different criteria to evaluate diets and I find that they often recommend Hills. I’ve also found that when commercial foods are fed to zoo animals Hills is often used. My local zoo feeds Hills. I asked why and if they get it as a donation and was told by the zoo nutritionist that they purchase the food and they use it because of the controlled nutrient levels and high bioavailability of the nutrients.

[aimee]

Hi Mountainhound,

I take a different approach when evaluating a food. I start by looking at the company and evaluate if they have sound nutritional information. I want to know who formulates the food, what their nutritional training is and ask questions about quality control.

When I contacted this company I talked with Scott Freeman who formulates the diets. He holds a degree in marketing. He has no formal nutritional training and this is quite evident when talking to him. He doesn’t understand some very basic nutritional concepts. He is not someone who I’d want formulating a diet.

The diets fall way below AAFCO in some key nutrients (Vit D, E, Zn) and the company gets around this by feed trialing one formulation and then using the family rule to put an AAFCO statement on the foods.

The nutrient analysis on the website are not the analysis of the products. The same levels are reported for nearly every product and every nutrient. Scott said nearly 6 months ago that the website just needed to be updated. Three months ago he told me he had sent all the new info to the webmaster and it would all be posted within days, but the same numbers are still posted.

Some real head scratchers can be found in the NA. The Beef Ca is reported as 2.123% and the phos as 2.95% YIKES! An inverse ratio! Scott said these numbers are incorrect but months later the same numbers are still being reported/ posted as the actual analysis. I asked him if the Beef Ca level was ever actually 2.123 % (which is a calcium level reported in many of the diets) or was it actually higher than the 2.95% Phos. He said he had no idea where the reported 2.123% Calcium number came from.

I asked him about the ash levels in the venison meals and he said it was over 25%

I asked him about quality control. He doesn’t do any testing on any of the ingredients before going into production, he relies on the spec sheets that come with the shipments. Other companies I’ve talked to do their own analysis on incoming ingredients to verify the spec sheets are accurate. He seemed uncertain as to what post production testing was done by the co packers.

I think this company is good at one thing…. marketing which makes sense as that is the only field that this company’s formal education is in.

You can draw you own conclusions but I couldn’t ever recommend this food.

[aimee]

Shawna I didn’t read through the entire thread again so my apologies. I only recall you thinking if it was a real problem Dr. Dodds would be warning people about the issue. I didn’t mean to imply Dr Dodds was recommending against all raw feeding, but that she is warning people about the need to be aware of the sourcing of what is being fed.

[aimee]

I posted on this very issue 3 months ago on the Natures Logic thread. A paper was published on this in 2012 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931400

In response Shawna posted “Additionally, if there were truly a risk of hyperthyroid and raw diets I am certain Dr. Dodds would be one of the first to recommend against them.”

Guess Dr Dodds is now warning people about the issue. Here is a link to her blog on the issue dated 2 /2013

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