[aimee]

Thanks DogFoodie!

To clarify I meant a leash held by a responsible adult for direct supervision to prevent breeding. Though I guess it would still be possible if overtaken by a pack of intact males! Wouldn’t want anyone to think you can just snap a leash on your dog and let it outside unattended.

Met a human Dr once who had an intact female. She said she didn’t ever worry about her getting pregnant because she had an underground electric fence. I asked her how that prevents males from entering her yard and breeding her female. She hadn’t thought about that….

[aimee]

Hi Cheryl,

I read the article and perhaps I missed something … but if you are not going to remove the ovaries why have the surgery at all? I guess to potentially prevent a infected uterus (pyometria) I say potentially because if any uterine tissue is left behind it can still happen.

As the article points out you still have to prevent breeding as it may be possible for the female to be injured if bred, and if you have to prevent breeding that seems to diminish doing this primarily for pregnancy prevention. A leash prevents pregnancy.

If you leave ovaries your dog will still have heat cycles and all that comes with them: urine marking during cycles ( some do) attracting males, wanting to wander to find mates, false pregnancies, inability to participate in certain activities while in heat( dog parks, obedience competition)

I wouldn’t consider this procedure for my dog.

[aimee]

Hi Denise,

I’ve always had Labs, they do like to get heavy so I have to constantly watch intake. During growth I always fed a large breed puppy food, preferably one that underwent feeding trials
until about 90% full grown around a year of age.

Dr Mike has an excellent article on large breed growth /best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

and more information can be found here as well http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=3501

Have fun!

[aimee]

Hi Dominick,

There are pros and cons to every ingredient. I see the “grain free” ideology as more of a personal preference than anything based in science as to any real “across the board” benefit.

Certainly there will be a few individuals who develop an adverse food reaction to grain just as they some have reactions to beef or chicken or whatever.

Here are two informative posts by a holistic vet who accurately discusses the use of grains in pet food.

http://vetnutrition.blogspot.com/2009/05/are-grains-all-bad.html

http://vetnutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/grains-2-not-as-allergenic-as-you.html

[aimee]

I have nothing really to add, I agree with your assessment of the validity or lack thereof of this practice and wanted to compliment you on your excellent posts!

[aimee]

Hi losul,

Very interesting back story on that paper.

[aimee]

I agree with others that brushing is best. There are several dental diets marketed which have gone through the Veterinary Oral Health Council protocol and shown to be effective in reducing plaque and calculus accumulation. These diets have a relatively larger kibble and different textures or coatings that contribute to decreased formation of plaque and calculus.

I hadn’t heard that kibble size alone could decrease calculus formation, but I found a study that evaluated just that “Results showed that increasing kibble diameter by 50.0% was associated with a 42.0% calculus reduction……with the most pronounced effect being observed on caudally-located crushing teeth compared with incisor and canine teeth. ” Hennet 2007 I haven’t read the full text so I don’t know what the original and test diet kibble size was but did find it interesting.

Just as human dentists don’t recommend gnawing on a piece of food as our sole dental health program I don’t think gnawing on food should be the total answer for a dog’s dental health program either. However, apparently kibble size plays a role in calculus reduction on the back teeth which is what the OP vet recommended the larger kibble size for. For those that wondered where the OP vet ever came up with that idea, it could be that the OP vet was sharing what he/she learned from reading the veterinary dental literature.

[aimee]

Hi Nancy T,

I contacted my state feed control official over the concerns I had about Grandma Lucy’s products. The company claims the diets are complete and balanced yet according to their label they are deficient in phosphorus. The caloric information also appeared inaccurate.

The State Official opened an an investigation, the conclusion of which was to issue an immediate stop sale order on the foods. The food is not allowed to be offered for sale in the state.

[aimee]

Hi Vanessa,

It is a very good question. Proteins are changed when heated so it is thought that a dog could react to a cooked/processed protein but not to the same protein raw. On the flip side if exposed to raw only the dog may react to the protein when raw but not cooked.

[aimee]

Hi Dori and Howard,

Actually, it has been known for a long time that urine pH doesn’t play a role in lawn burn. It was one of the variables tested in the paper published in 1981 titled appropriately enough “Lawn Burn from Dog Urine” : ) Apparently Dr. Becker wasn’t aware that the idea that pH burns lawns had been tested and found not to be valid The author writes ” The pH of urine has no effect on lawn burn” The pages loaded out of order but you can find it here: http://www.myxyz.org/phmurphy/dog/LawnBurn1.pdf

I found it interesting that the author found that dl methionine had a diuretic effect when added to the diet and it is a diuretic effect and not a pH effect that can help mitigate burn. Salt though was just as if not more effective.

I don’t advise adding things to diets though for lawn burn, except for water. I did find it interesting that in two articles that discuss the nitrogen load as the reason for lawn burn it was proposed that if feeding a high protein diet that lowering the protein level in the diet would decrease the amount of nitrogen needing to be excreted and may help mitigate lawn burn. It is an interesting thought but remains untested. Would make for an easy and good science fair project!

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2085&aid=1493
http://www.doghealth.com/how-to/how-to-prevent-lawn-burn-from-dog-urine

[aimee]

Yes, Balance it is for a cooked diet. You could call and find out if it could be used with raw, but I kinda doubt they would approve of it…because of the raw aspect. I think Dr. Bartges at Tenn is a vet nut who will balance raw diets.

[aimee]

Hi Howard and Dori,

The idea that urine pH plays a role in lawn burn was actually tested a long time ago. (Apparently Dr. Becker missed that publication.) It was published in 1981 and titled appropriately enough “Lawn Burn from Dog Urine. pH was one of the variables tested and it was found not to play any role in lawn burn. “The pH of urine has no effect on lawn burn”. Interestingly enough the authors reported that dl-methionine did decrease lawn burn because it acts as a diuretic and decreased urine concentration. Salt as a diuretic was a bit more effective.

You can read the publication here: http://www.myxyz.org/phmurphy/dog/LawnBurn1.pdf

I wouldn’t recommend adding things to your dog’s diet. I found these 2 articles that have a lot of information and suggest that if feeding a high protein food lowering the protein may help by decreasing the nitrogen load on the lawn. It sounds like a reasonable hypothesis but I can’t find that idea tested anyplace. I’d think urine concentration plays the largest role and watering the area after the dog eliminates probably the most effective measure to take.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2085&aid=1493

http://www.doghealth.com/how-to/how-to-prevent-lawn-burn-from-dog-urine

[aimee]

Hi Howard,

Urine “burn” on lawn is not a urine pH problem… it is a urine nitrogen problem! It is no different than if you “spilled” fertilizer on the lawn. Lawns that already have a high nitrogen load via frequent owner fertilization are at a higher risk than a poorly fertilized lawn.

Teach your dog to eliminate in one location, or water the area well after your pet eliminates or if you fertilize you could try to decrease the overall fertilization schedule. Because I don’t fertilize often the lawn grows lush and green wherever my dog urinates!

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/553.html

[aimee]

Hi Akari,
The concern I’d have with this product is that the instructions are very vague. I couldn’t find it defined anywhere what “meat” is. There is a big difference between a lean meat and a fatty cut. Additionally, I see no mention in regards to fat supplements that would be needed to meet linoleic requirements.

I “made” 2 meals one using 3% fat ground beef and one using 30% fat ground beef. I calculated out the Ca, Phos, Zn, Vit D,Vit E, and polyunsaturated acids and compared them to AAFCO. The meal made with 3% fat beef was excessive for calcium, deficient for Phos for growth profile, excessive in Zn, excessive in Vit D and excessive in Vit E. The diet was deficient in linoleic acid.

Of the six nutrients I checked the meal made with 30% fat ground beef was deficient in phos, and linoleic acid.

To use this supplement I think you’d need to get a full nutrient analysis for the supplement, then use a source like the USDA nutrient database to get nutritional information on the meat choice you make, then calculate out all the nutrient levels and compare to AAFCO and/or NRC tables and then add supplements as needed and balance the diet.

For myself that would be way too much work to do.

What I like about Balance it is that all this work is done for you and it tells you exactly what meat, what fat supplements and gives you a full nutrient analysis for the diet you create.

Any reason why Balance it wouldn’t work for you?

[aimee]

Hi Bobby,

If this is the cat product I missed that. But as the cat AAFCO standard is similar to the dog in regards to minerals, the diet remains deficient for main and growth for cats in the minerals I reported.

[aimee]

Hi Akari,
You could try getting the article to read it and see if it says which pre mix was used. When I want to read articles that are published in vet journals I ask at the vet office if they would get them for me.

[aimee]

Hi Jakes Mom,

Here is the breakdown of the meal using the nutritional information you posted and compared to AAFCO

KBPF Ca 1.73 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main 1.68 grs/1000 kcals growth 2.8 grs 1000/kcal
Ph 0.55 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main. 1.4 grs/1000kcals growth 2.24 gr/1000kcal
Mg 0.55 grs/1000kcal AAFCO min main .11grm/1000kcals growth .11 grm/1000kcals
Na 1.08grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main .168 grm/1000kcals growth .84grm/1000kcals
K 1.5 grs/1000kcals AAFCO min main 1.68 grms/1000kcalsgrowth1.68grms/1000kcals

Using the information posted, the diet when compared to AAFCO is deficient for Phos and Potassium for maintenance; compared to AAFCO growth profile it is deficient in Calcium Phos and Potassium.

I question the reported Phos level as being incorrect.

Sadly this company markets their products as meeting a puppies needs when it doesn’t even meet an adults needs. Calcium levels this low will likely cause developmental bone abnormalities.

[aimee]

Good Point BCnut!

[aimee]

C4C,
The Fortifier has essentially the same nutrient profile as all the NL diets do. So no need to worry about over supplementing as adding this to your dogs diet is essentially the same as if you mixed in a few kibbles from one of their foods into what you are currently using.

[aimee]

Kristin,

I believe dogs are quite flexible and do well on a variety of nutritional approaches so I agree there isn’t one right way. What is most important to me is the the dog’s needs are met.

So when I read of cases like the Sheltie pup who was raised on pre mix and raw and suffered severe nutritional disease it concerns me. Do companies know what they are doing? I don’t know that they do….

My second dog has Mast Cell disease . I hope your dog does well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366336 Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef

[aimee]

Bobby LOL Yes.. I did. Truth be told I always dated the teachers/student teachers… even in high school. Which meant I never went to prom LOL. In college not as big as deal. The dept chair just said to be discrete.

Still remember the first kiss… We were talking about his current girlfriend who was pressuring him to marry her. He said she was a wonderful woman but knew she wasn’t “the one”. She was brilliant. I’d met her. She was my age and had already finished her PhD. I said something like he really needs to do what in his heart he knew to be the right thing to do. And he leaned over and said “This is what I know is the right thing to do” and kissed me. When he leaned over he knocked a glass jar full of fruit flys off the counter, which landed on the floor and crashed. We were in the genetics lab.

Now at the time of this “first kiss” I was engaged to a pastor of a church who lived a few states away. So the crash was a good “jar” back to reality for him as I was quite a bit startled by his “move”. He broke up with his GF and about 4 weeks later he asked me to marry him.. again in the genetics lab surrounded by fruit fly cultures. Very Romantic! He said he knew I was engaged but he never wanted to look back on his life and wonder “What if” so he was asking. That same day i got home from school and my betrothed had sent me a letter saying God was leading him in a different direction and that he had started dating someone else. Eventually, I started dating hubby to be and I think it was the fifth time he proposed that I said yes. My pastor Bf and I are still friends.. he is coming to visit in a few weeks. : )

So their you have it… TMI and now really off topic!

[aimee]

Kristin,

You asked what my background was so I told you. I don’t give my dogs cattle or hog feed either LOL and I agree in my effort to explain I get too wordy. I don’t understand what you mean by this “The information you provide and your approach is not supportive” but that is ok.

I do advocate for meeting a dog’s nutritional needs when feeding them.

Edit:Currently Brooke is on Annamaet Lean as her base but she has been on it about 8 weeks and her coat is looking dull. I’ll prob rotate back to Purina Pro Plan weight management. I’ve also used Wellness Core reduced fat and EVO weight management too. She maintains the best coat on Purina. For toppers I add fresh and sometime commercial. Currently I have Primal raw, Stella and Chewy freeze dried and Pro Plan canned in the house.

For Jack, the crested in my pic he eats RC venison and potato, as his base along some Hill’s V and P canned with fresh and some Primal and some Stella and Chewy venison. He’s the reason those brands are in the house: ).

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by aimee.

[aimee]

Dori,

I ‘ll be happy to discuss THK or anything I post about. I agree with you that their customer service is very responsive but CS hands are tied by the overall lack of nutritional knowledge of the company as a whole.

I think I covered the “kickback” thing. Marking up a product isn’t a kickback. Income stream from selling foods in a vet hospital EH… minor at best… It isn’t worth a vet’s time to sell pet food, his/her time is better spent in the surgery room! Considering the small volume of food sold and taking into account overhead and theft it is likely a bit of a wash. Someplace on Dr. Wynn’s vet blog she addressed this topic as her accountant said stop selling therapeutic diets, it is too much of an income drain!!

Sure vets get volume discounts on food as does anyplace buying the diets but again that isn’t a “kickback” and the volume they deal with in general is so small compared to a large retailer. If vet offices sell food I don’t see it as primarily income related I see it as providing a product they have had success with and trying to increase client contact. If they break even woo hoo!

Ok.. Why I wouldn’t currently recommend THK. On its most basic level I expect a diet when fed as directed to meet my dog’s nutritional needs. I first looked at THK when a poster posted about all the “sticks” in the product. I looked at the profile for the product she was posting about, Preference, and using the information they posted and their feeding directions I ran calculations. When fed to my dog Preference didn’t meet NRC rec or AAFCO min recommended amounts. This alarmed me!

In fact I immediately contacted THK, especially as Preference was being marketed on their website as being appropriate for feeding puppies!. To their credit after I contacted them they removed the information and feeding recommendations for puppies from their website within days. BUT why did it take someone with minimal nutritional training ( that would be me) to point out to them that their food is deficient? They acknowledged I was right by removing the puppy feeding recommendations but why still market it to adults? What about the adults eating the diet? Don’t they care about them as well?

I’ll run through a calculation with you. I’m going to feed my dog Brooke who weighs 68 lbs Preference. I’m to feed her 3/4 cup mix and 1 1/2 cups meat using their active dog recommendations.

The Vit E content of Preference is 70 IU/kg as received, Calories/kg 3510 and Cal/cup 333. From the caloric information 1 cup has .095 kgs of food and 3/4 cup is .071 kg Preference.

.071 kg of food X 70 IU/kg = 5 IU of Vit E in 3/4 cup Preference. NRC rec amt for Vit E is 1 mg/kg body weight to the 3/4 power. Brooke is 68 lbs = ~31kg. To calculate bw to the 3/4 power multiple bw three times and square root twice. 31X 31X 31= 29,791, take the square root twice = 13. Brooke’s body weight in kg to the 3/4 power is 13 and NRC rec Vit E is 13 mg Vit E of the alpha tocopherol form.

Now we have to convert IU vit E to mg vit E (alpha tocopherol) which is what NRC uses. The accepted conversion factor I found is 1 IU vit E = .45 mg alpha tocopherol So 5 IU Vit E x .45 mg/IU = 2.25 mg alpha tocopherol supplied by Preference. The Vit E content of the added 1 and 1/2 cup 85% lean ground beef is .58 mg Vit E from the USDA nutrient database, I’m estimating 1.5 cups as 12 oz. 0.58 mg from meat plus 2.25 mg from the mix = total Vit E fed 2.84 mg. Preference provided about 20% the NRC recommended daily amount of Vit E. This is why I don’t recommend Preference, it doesn’t meet needs.

I’ll compare Preference to AAFCO on an energy basis. AAFCO rec Vit E is 50 IU/kg and a kg of food is defined as 3,500 kcals 50 IU/3,500kcals x 1000 = 14.2 IU/1000 kcals.

I was recommended to feed 3/4 cup Preference which gave me 5 IU Vit E and 250 kcals and 1 1/2 cup meat. 1.5 cups 85% ground beef from USDA database approx 731 kcals and .58 mg alpha tocopherol. I convert mgs Vit E from the beef to IU and I get~ 1.3 IU Total Vit E fed 6.3 IU and total calories 981 kcals 6.3IU/981 kcals x 1000 = 6 .4 IU/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min is 14.2 IU/1000kcals so Preference provides less than half the min AAFCO Vit E requirement according to their posted nutritional information.

Dori, I hope you can now see that using the information provided by THK and adding meat to the pre mix it does not meet either AAFCO or the NRC recommended min levels for Vit E.

Now let’s look at their complete diets, are they complete and balanced? Go to their site and pull up the nutritional information for Keen. The posted content of Vit E is 23.45 mg/kg DM and their posted arginine content is 0.06% DM. Compare that to AAFCO. AAFCO min Vit E content for maint is 50 IU/kg DM and arginine AAFCO min is .51% DM. It really is as simple as that…. 23.45 IU/kg is less than AAFCO requirement of 50 IU/kg and 0.06 % is far far less than .51%. But consider that KEEN caloric content is reported as 4524/kg and AAFCO requires any diet over 4000 kcals/kg to be corrected. The correction is simple 4524/3500 x 50 = 64.6 IU/kg. A diet with KEEN’s caloric density requires 64.6 IU Vit E/kg and THK says there is 23.45 IU/kg. The company reports that their diet has only 36% the amount that AAFCO requires. THK is saying that their diet is not “complete and balanced” b AACo nutrient profile.

Diet after diet, nutrient after nutrient the information that THK posts doesn’t meet AAFCO

Have I reported them? The company on one hand says it is complete and balanced and on the other says it is not. For a feed control official to take action I think a nutrient analysis would need to be done to settle the question and a full analysis can cost thousands. I don’t have that kind of money to donate to the cause. I asked THK if their nutritional analysis are accurate and they said they are. I asked how they can say their diet are complete and balanced. They say they are. Both statements can not be true. Either the nutritional information is wrong or some diets are not complete and balanced. I don’t know which is true. The company said it didn’t have time to investigate it, but would get back to me. It has been over 6 months…Is that good customer service?? I’ve been waiting over 6 months for the company to answer as to how it can say their diets are complete and balanced when the information they post does not meet AAFCO.

I found a similar situation with Grandma Lucy’s, they say the diet is complete and balanced but they report that the Phos max is .45% which is below AAFCO min. I did report Grandma Lucy’s to the feed control official. Grandma Lucy’s printed their nutritional information on the package in their guaranteed analysis so the feed control official didn’t need to run an analysis. The food is misbranded: the label can’t say that it meets AAFCO while guaranteeing that the food is below AAFCO. So the official in my state placed a stop sale order on Grandma Lucy’s. Does that mean it isn’t being sold? Of course not!! The feed control official can’t be there 24 /7 in every little boutique that chooses to violate the law. Does the company care? They gave me the same line as THK; Our diets are complete and balanced. I’ve been waiting over 9 months for them to tell me actual Phos level in their foods.They said they should have the information sometime in 2015

People tend to buy food on an emotional basis. THK is very good at appealing to emotions: “human grade”, “whole food”, “non GMO” etc. They excel in it… I’m analytical.. I like numbers and data. I like things to be consistent and this company is full of inconsistencies. They say the food is “never cooked”…. but they “heat” to high temps. How is that not cooked? I asked THK but they wouldn’t answer. It isn’t raw… yet their phone number is “4 dry raw” and Lucy Postins says right on the video that it is raw. If you use their as received nutrient data the DM protein content is 21.85% for Keen but if you use their as served data it is 40% protein DM basis. They say the diet is highly digestible but expect your dog to poop three to five times a day. That’s normal… Really?? Normal for your dog to poop 3-5 times a day with undigested whole hunks of celery and sweet potato and alfalfa in it? They haven’t ever done any type of digestibility trials, how do they know it is highly digestible… they told me they know it is because raw foods are highly digestible… but wait… they told me their food isn’t raw. Do they have a nutritionist Nope… have they ever had a nutritionist review their diets? Nope. Since the company doesn’t use any nutritionists does it surprise me that their diets wouldn’t be balanced and they can’t do simple nutritional calculations… Nope

I see this company as a marketing company. They appeal to people who evaluate foods on an emotional basis only which is pretty much everybody! They say it is not cooked to appeal to raw feeders and they say it is heat processed to appeal to those that don’t like raw. How can it be both?? According to the nutritional information the company posts and depending on the diet their diets may not meet the most basic thing that a food should, which is meet the nutritional needs of the pet. As long as you don’t feed it consistently it should be fine. But why pay a premium price a food that comes out as it goes in? And why support a company that promotes feeding unbalanced diets to pets ?

Dori I hope this explains to you why I can’t currently recommend this company.

[aimee]

Kristen,

I ‘ll give you a bit on my background as it buried in numerous posts I’ve posted over the years. I have a strong background in science, hundreds of credit hours. I started out as a biology /biochem double major. Didn’t finish the degree… married my prof and became a mom. But as a wife of a prof I now could take classes for free, and I’ve taken a lot of classes! As part of my education I have taken a class which covered feed formulation for large animal, many many hours evaluating diets primarily for cattle and hog production as problem based class work. It was all very “mathey” and all hand calculations so I have a basic understanding of how to do nutritional calculations it isn’t hard to do … just time consuming.

Because of my background when I evaluate a company or product I look at the nutritional numbers posts and see if they “add up”.

The reason I said so far only balance it makes sense to me is because of the precision of the feed recommendations. I think the amount of supplement should vary depending on ingredient use. Use as much as needed and no more. Keeps costs down. Also specific vegetable fat recommendations are given which vary depending on meat source to meet linoleic needs as they should.

When I looked at the KBPF supplement I see that the nutritional information posted doesn’t meet AAFCO. I found it odd that though they post a decent amount of information there is nothing about linoleic acid. I would not be at all surprised to find that the diets as made are deficient. The company doesn’t have recommendation for vegetable oils and I doubt that there is enough dried egg in the product to meet needs. There is no break down of the nutrient profile of the supplement.

See Spot Live longer does a little better job… but vague instructions like add up to 20% whole food by volume… really turn me off. Nutritionists never balance by volume way too much variation. Huge difference to a nutrient profile/calories if you add 20% liver by volume vs 20 % green beans vs 20% chickpeas. It is all very odd.

The “synthetics” in balance it don’t bother me, perhaps because of my nutritional background. The NRC tables are based on highly bioavailable “synthetics” and the user of such tables is cautioned of a need to convert if using natural sources whose bioavailability may be poor. Even SSLL acknowledges the need for synthetics. I have to wonder if the dried spinach in SSLL isn’t somewhat of a filler window dressing. People like to see natural ingredients so marketers will oblige them.

Cheryl,

It doesn’t surprise me that all the recipes from balance it come up with deficiencies unless supplement is added as the recipes are based on just a few ingredients. It isn’t a “ploy” to get you to buy their supplement. Recipes are free when using their supplement but you can purchase recipes that use common supplements to balance them.

Is balance it perfect? I think it is good at what it is, but may not meet all peoples needs.
I’ve never used the supplements myself as majority of calories my dogs eat are from commercial foods.

[aimee]

Hi Cheryl,

In regards to vet diets.. I think there are diets marketed for reasons that are questionable at best and on the other hand see that there are veterinary diets that really fulfill a need.

In regards to the ingredients in the vet diets, I don’t vilify ingredients. I look at each ingredient as to what it brings to the table. I don’t know if you have stumbled upon “Dog Talk” podcasts. I’ve listened to a lot of them by a boarded nutritionist Sean Delaney. You can find them here : http://www.radiopetlady.com/archives-pet-food-advisors.htm Listen to the one dated 5- 9-2013 as it pertains to the “ingredient” issue. The host questions Dr Delaney in regards to the ingredients used in a kidney diet. I found it very interesting.

Do the vet diets have ingredients in them that are dangerous. None that I’d be concerned about. I just don’t get all that hyped up about things that others do. After researching in peer reviewed papers in Pub Med I find that my fears are quelled after looking at data. If someone doesn’t want to feed a particular ingredient for whatever reason than they shouldn’t. You have to do what you are comfortable with.

To those that commented on “kickbacks” Perhaps this is an issue with how we define kickback. If a person receives a benefit contingent upon a contract/ sale that he/she arranged between two parties and is not one of the two parties in the contract/sale I see that as a kickback. When a vet buys a diet from a company, marks it up and sells it, that’s normal business. The vet gives money to Hills…the client gives money to the vet. Hills doesn’t give money to the vet.

In The Honest Kitchen program the vet recommends the diet and is given a coupon code to give to the client. The client goes to the site and enters into a contract with Honest Kitchen and enters the coupon number identifying who sent them to the THK site. Honest Kitchen then gives a benefit to the vet which was contingent upon the contract between THK and the client. That’s a kickback!

The other kickback program I’m aware of is Chewy dot com. The vet recommends a diet to the client and recommends that they get it through Chewy. The client goes to chewy website and orders the diet and puts his vets name down as the prescribing vet. Chewy sends a fax to the vet and the vet signs it. Chewy then pays the vet for the script. That’s a kickback.

Hill’s sponsors a seminar, it is free for vets to attend. Does that meet the criteria of kickback? No.. because attendance to the seminar is not contingent upon any arranged contracts between Hills and the client. Attendance isn’t even contingent between any contract between Hills and the vet. Hill’s want vets to come to a seminar so that they can hopefully sway the vets to choose to use their products over a competitors. It is marketing by Hills.

Trips?? Maybe as a contest… win a trip to a vet conference for example. But then again entering the contest isn’t contingent on a contract between client and a company. In fact I think there are even laws that say a contest has to be open to all such that a vet who has never even purchased a product from the company offering the contest can participate.

In regards to vets selling food they buy it mark it up and sell it just as a pet store would or Chewy does or whatever. A vet may carry a particular food because he/she truly thinks it is best and wants to make it available. They may carry it because they want the client to visit the practice every 3-4 weeks to build “good will” between the client and the practice and they may carry it as another income source to support the practice.

Of those three I think income source comes in dead last. I’m saying this as a person whose sister is an accountant who has had vet practices as clients.

[aimee]

Hi Lisa,

So sorry to hear about your lab: ( Increased BUN from diet is tied into protein but it sounds like your dog isn’t eating a lot of protein. Rawhide is a source of protein, but he is off those now. Any other high protein chews you give him consistently? Rawhide contributes calories too so hope the weight loss is from eliminating those from the diet vs something else.

Another source of protein that your vet probably already considered is from bleeding into the gut. This may or may not show up on a regular blood count. A rectic count in addition to the normal blood counts could be done to make sure that constant regeneration isn’t going on.

If this still could be kidney problems from a diet perspective controlled phosphorus levels are recommended in kidney disease. Phosphorus parallels protein which is likely where the rec to avoid high protein comes from.

Sounds like more diagnostics will be needed to sort this out.

[aimee]

Hi Kristin,

My dogs primarily eat commercial pet food along with some home cooked. The home cooked I add is primarily vegetables… all the colors of the rainbow, along with some lean meat. Primarily the home cooked is from my dinners but occasionally I’ll steam and puree large batches of veggies and cook meats specifically for them and freeze it to use as needed.

In regards to vets recommending consults if you are home cooking, I think all vets have a duty to recommend that the diet be evaluated to ensure the needs are being met. In fact I’d think they open themselves up to malpractice if they don’t make that recommendation. Similarly, if raw feeding, they have a duty to inform of the parasite and infectious disease risk. This is needed not only for the health of the patient but also extends to public health. Vets won’t get in trouble with AVMA, that has nothing to do with it, but they can lose their license and a huge chunk of change if they are sued if a person in the home comes down with illness traced back to the dog’s raw diet and it isn’t documented in the record that they advised against it. In fact just had a conversation about this at the vet. The CDC was involved, there was an outbreak of Salmonella in the household, 3 children were ill. Same strain in the raw food as in the dog’s poop as in the children. Thankful he had it documented in the record that he discussed risk with owners and advised against raw food.

[aimee]

Hi Cheryl,

I wouldn’t expect a general veterinarian to formulate home cooked diets. There is a reason that it takes an additional 3-4 years of study to become a nutritionist. No way to “cram” that into vet school. I would expect though that your vet should have the resources to refer to someone who could provide that service for you.

I’ve used the vet therapeutic diets for a past dog and for a current dog. Frankly I find it odd and so sad that people think that vets recommend diets because of kickbacks or to make money. The only company I know of that give vets kickbacks is The Honest Kitchen.

[aimee]

Hi kristin,

I’ve never purchased or used balance it supplements. I have made lots of recipes on the site though just to see how it works. It is super duper easy and a lot of fun to play with! Not sure how you got the idea that you had to download or purchase anything or go through a vet. Just scroll over homemade food tab and click on autobalancer EZ. You can pick ingredients from the lists and the program then gives you options that vary in protein and fat content. After the initial options are presented you can customize it by entering your dog’s weight and what protein and fat percentage you’d like the diet to have. The recipes are free to look at, the program tells you how many deficiencies are present if you don’t supplement and you can see how much supplement you need to use /batch. For me that is where the “fun” lies. It is interesting to see how adding particular ingredients changes the profile, the number of deficiencies and the amount of supplement needed to balance the recipe. I’ve found that the amount of supplement can vary significantly depending on the ingredients/fat levels that you choose to use in the diet. That’s why there isn’t a “standard” recommendation in regards to how much supplement to use. the program calculates out the least amount needed based on the base diet. I love that it gives you a full nutrient analysis for the recipe and detailed instructions.

Have not looked at See Spot Live Longer.

[aimee]

Hi Hater and Molly’s Mom and Dog Obsessed,

To answer your question, “how can they distribute their product saying it meets standards if it doesn’t?” all I can say is “Who is there to check and hold them accountable??” No one really… so companies are on the honor system and can do as they like.

Some companies are simply marketing machines. Because the companies don’t study or understand nutrition they themselves can’t even see that the information they post doesn’t make any nutritional sense. Marketing companies, like THK, have as their primary concern getting people to open their wallets.

I reported Grandma Lucy’s to my state feed control official for the same type of nonsensical nutritional information that I see with THK. The state feed control official issued an immediate stop sale order, but I’m sure I’ll see it back on the shelf. The inspector can’t be there 24/7 and “marketing” companies, as opposed to nutritional companies don’t seem to be concerned if a product doesn’t properly nourish an animal.

For THK, base mixes don’t have to meet AAFCO as they are labeled for intermittent/ supplemental feeding. In regards to their complete mixes… well the company won’t answer that question. THK just sticks to their story that they meet AAFCO despite that their self reported nutritional information says otherwise. Apparently they don’t understand enough about nutrition to see how foolish it all sounds The reality though is that it is anyone’s guess what is actually in the food. Who knows if the nutrient information they post is correct or if the stuff they post is incorrect and the diets do meet AAFCO. For me though it doesn’t matter… if a company posts nutritional information and it doesn’t “add up”, I won’t use their products.

[aimee]

Hi Cheryl H,
I’m sorry your dog is having difficulty. The best I can do would be to direct you to balance it. They can work with your dog’s vet to formulate an appropriate homemade diet. Wish you and your dog the best.

[aimee]

Hi Jakes Mom.

I didn’t know what KBPF was but looked it up. I wasn’t familiar with the company so I took a look and this is a company whose products I would most definitely not use.

When I evaluate a company I first look at the website. I ask myself several questions: Does the information make sense? Does the company have a basic understanding of nutrition or is it full of pseudo science? What is the company’s attention to detail? If they post nutritional information does it add up?

First I looked at the FAQ and found this: “Protein is an amino acid” Right away a red flag goes up. Either the company doesn’t know that a protein is made up of long chains of AA’s or it has very poor attention to detail. Whatever the reason for such a blunder it is a bad sign in my book. Honestly, it just went downhill from there, like this gem: “Dogs lack the digestive enzymes to break down and metabolize carbohydrates.”

So within about 45 seconds of looking at the website I failed the company, but to be complete I’ll look at the nutritional information they posted and pull out the calculator.

The company reports as fed nutritional information for 1 lb of homemade dog food using their mix and prepared with 85% lean beef as the meat source. They report 1 lb of homemade pet food as having 733 kcals and 695 mg of Calcium. To convert to an energy basis that would be 695 mg Ca/733 kcals X 1000 = 948 mg Ca/1000 kcals. AAFCO Min for maintenance is 1714 mg Ca/1000 kcals. Using the information they provide they are reporting that if you use their product and make food according to their instructions your dog will take in far less Calcium than what the AAFCO min recommendation is for an adult dog.

For giggles I looked at Zn. The company reports Zn as 20.8 ppm. Now this is very very odd as the analysis is clearly titled “Based on “as fed” per pound of finished dog food” yet they are reporting Zn as PPM which is the same as mg/kg. Pressing forward… KBPF reports 20.8 mg of Zn in 1 kg of finished pet food. They report 1 lb prepared pet food has 733 kcals which means 1 kg has 1612 kcals. 20.8 mg Zn/1612 kcals x 1000 = 12.9 mg Zn/1000 kcals. AAFCO current min for Zn is 34 mg Zn/1000 kcals. The diet is short on Zn as well.

Ok, this is just too easy. The folic acid looks off as well. They report .01 mg folic acid/733 kcals which is ~.014mg folic acid/1000 kcals; AAFCO min is .051 mg folic acid/1000 kcals KBPF reports that their diet fails to meet AAFCO’s min for folic acid.

It really didn’t surprise me that KBPF nutritional information wouldn’t make any sense. I kinda knew right from the get go that the company would fail miserably. I mean really… if the company writes ” Protein is an amino acid” it is pretty clear that they don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about.

[aimee]

Hi Bobby Dog,

The only dinner mix I ever used was THK Preference when I did my crude food trial. I purchased it because I suspected that THK’s dehydrated foods would not be digested and wanted to test that idea, but didn’t want to pay the price for the complete diets.

The only time I used is it when I did the trials. I still have the box, but never fed it again. Kinda pointless to use it as the stuff comes out the same way it goes in, yet for some reason I can’t bring myself to toss it! LOL

I’ve looked at a few premixes and the only ones that makes any sense to me are balance it’s products.

[aimee]

Hi Jakes Mom,

In regards to Honest Kitchen mixes, I wouldn’t use them. The company posts nutritional information and comparing that information to AAFCO it is evident that their mixes ( their complete diets too) fall short of AAFCO minimums. If you use them occasionally then no harm as long as your dog’s main diet is well balanced. But if you use their products often I think you need to be very careful to calculate out your dog’s nutritional needs and compensate for the company’s stated deficiencies to ensure your dog’s needs are met.

I’ll give you an example. To compare nutrient levels between foods it is best to compare the nutrient level in relation to the number of calories. This is called “energy basis”

AAFCO min requirement for Vit D is 142 IU/1000 kcals. ( 500 IU/ kg food and each kg has 3500 kcals, 500 IU/3500kcals X 1000 kcal = 142IU/1000 kcals) Honest Kitchen Kindly reports their base as having 93 IU/1000 kcals. So right away it is evident that the base mix falls far short of AAFCO minimums.

I used the USDA nutrient database and made a meal following their recommendations. Using chicken breast as a meat source the Vit D falls to 68 IU/ 1000 kcals. If you used a fattier meat like say 70/30 ground beef the level falls to 36.6 IU/1000kcals and if you use their active dog ratios of 2 parts meat to 1 part mix it plummets to 26 IU/1000 kcals.

In the best of circumstances, a low fat meat source at 1:1 ratio, the diet provides only 47% of AAFCO requirements and at a higher fat meat source and a higher ration of meat to mix it provides less than 20% of AAFCO.

Honest Kitchen products across the board have nutritional deficiencies according to the information they provide. Even their complete diets don’t meet AAFCO!! For example, Keen is reported as having 5 IU vit E /1000 kcals and AAFCO min is 14.28 IU/1000 kcals. It is crazy isn’t it???

I’ve inquired about these reported deficiencies. I was told that they quote “do not have the time to work through all this” but would “let you know when I receive an update.” UGH!! A company that doesn’t have time to ensure their foods meet nutritional needs. It has been over 6 months since they said they would update me after finding time to answer my questions. Still waiting…..

[aimee]

Hi Harpers Mom,

From your previous posts I see you’ve been dealing with fleas for nearly a year now. To win the battle it is essential to break the life cycle and hands down the best way to do that is with lufenuron. Administer it once a month with a full meal; stay the course. The flea life cycle can be several months long from start to finish. The eggs that were laid prior to lufenuron use will progress through the life cycle so it may be 3 months before you see the results from lufenuron. All animals in the home need to be on some form of control. If you have species that lufenuron isn’t being used in you’ll need to ask your vet what should be used in those species.

Capstar works well as an adulticide. I consider it super safe but it needs to be repeated frequently. In heavy infestations every 2-3 days.

Mechanical removal through vacuuming, and environmental spot control as necesary will hasten the process. I wouldn’t ever use DE.

[aimee]

Hi Michelle R.

My experience with Natures Logic was /is very different. I considered using the brand as my dog is on a diet of venison. I went to the website and was very concerned by what I found. The company inserted words into quotes which changed the meaning of the quotes, and it appeared that they only had one product analyzed and then posted those results for all the products.

I’ve talked with Mr Freeman on the phone and in person. In person was very telling!! I asked him about inserting words into quotes and he looked up and off into the distance, stroked his chin and in with a long drawn out affect said as best I remember “Oh… did I? Gee… I’ll have to look into that” When I asked about the nutrient analysis all looking the same he looked down and started to chuckle and said well yes, he only had one product analyzed, the chicken formula and then just changed some numbers here and there for the others. I asked him about the low Vit D levels in his diets and he told me to let my dog sit at the windows when the sun came through and my dog would make all the Vit D she needed. When I reminded him that dogs only make insignificant amount of Vit D and it is a requirement of the canine he said something like “Of course they make Vit D, probably when the researchers tested them they had the dogs locked up in a room in the dark without any windows.

Pressing onward, I asked him about the calcium levels in his diets and the effect on growth for large breed pups. He said you can feed a puppy all the calcium you want they would only absorb what they needed. When I reminded him that puppies can’t regulate calcium absorption which is why they need a controlled level in their diet he told me to feed a high calcium food and measure the calcium level in the blood .. it would be fine. YIKES !!! So I tried again and reminded him that yes the calcium level in the blood would be normal despite the effect the diet had on the C- cells and calcitonin levels. He didn’t know what those were. Then he handed me a copy of Dog Naturally magazine to use as a reference instead of the NRC Nutrient requirement of dogs and cats. I found that downright scary!

I asked who formulated his diets and what that person’s education was. He formulates the diets and his degree is in marketing. Suddenly it all became very clear!!! He doesn’t know anything about nutrition because he is in the business of marketing not in the business of nutrition!!

Combing that with him telling me he doesn’t do any type of ingredient testing and he didn’t seem sure of what post production testing was done as far as quality control pretty much lowered the boom of doom onto that company for me.

He is good at what he is educated in .. marketing. Well except for promising things he never follows through on. Like posting correct nutritional information on his website. I think it was last year that he told Dr. Mike he had each individual product analyzed and the data would be posted shortly. But the information really hasn’t changed much…. except for a few numbers here and there.

After talking with Mr. Freeman and evaluating his company I can see why the company isn’t on Editors Choice. The food has a great concept but poor execution in my opinion.

[aimee]

Hi C4C,

In regards to what pH to strive for you should ask your vet and yes I believe that the goal is to keep a fairly consistent mildly acidic pH throughout the day. Too acidic though and it can lead to formation of ca oxalate stones.

I’ve read pH strips are inaccurate compared to a meter. The problem with a meter though is that you have to have enough urine to cover the probe end.

Clean litter boxes often to encourage frequent use.. some cats like to pee in a box right after it has been cleaned.

[aimee]

Hi C4C,

Glad to hear that your cat is doing better. What a scary incident that you sure don’t want to repeat.

I’ve come to view urinary blockages as a multi factorial problem. Sometimes blockages are composed of mucoid matrix without any crystals, so be cautious on not having tunnel vision in regards to struvite. You can find good information on OSU indoor pet site which used to be indoor cat initiative.

The old adage “the solution to pollution is dilution” applies here. Crystal formation is a factor not only of pH but concentration of components that make up the crystal. Because pH can fluctuate throughout the day I think striving for a dilute urine is as important if not more important along with watching mineral content of the diet. I’d be willing to sacrifice a bit in the pH department to get a dilute urine. Moist foods can help along with extra water mixed into the food, flavored water “treats” providing multiple water sources and knowing what your cat likes. Some cat like “staler” water and others absolutely fresh!

pH varies with dietary factors, management factors and likely individual cat factors. Evaluating what goes in is important but I think close monitoring of what comes out is even more important. Veterinary diets are formulated to hit certain pH and concentration milestones. Some of the veterinary diets rely on salt to drive thirst. But I don’t think this “guarantees” that when fed to “your” cat the appropriate pH and concentration are achieved. Investing in a pH meter and refractometer to test urine at home is a good investment.

How often the cat eats also plays a role in urine pH. After eating the urine will become basic due to what is called the “alkaline tide”. This is noted in the cat more so than in the dog. The generation of HCL in the stomach releases bicarb in the blood which alkalizes the urine. Multiple 4-6 small meals a day are preferable to 1 or 2. I can see that there could be a bit of a trade off here. With a dry diet the cat is free to and often does eat multiple small meals a day with moist diet the food can’t be left out for hours and people usually don’t feed 4-6 times a day. If this results in the cat eating a larger amount less often the alkaline tide could result in a higher urine pH for many hours during the day despite a diet that would be otherwise be acidifying.

I personally don’t think the answer to struvite and urinary blockages can be found solely in added methionine to a diet without looking at the entire picture. Methionine is metabolized in the body and the sulfur excreted as sulfuric acid hence it is acidifying to the urine. But since minerals in the diet and feeding practices also influence pH I don’t think all the eggs should be put in one basket per say. Methionine can cause GI upset, and hemolytic anemia( large doses).

If you can achieve a dilute mildly acidic urine by adding methionine to a base diet that otherwise wasn’t reaching those parameters than great but be open to finding what works in your cat.

[aimee]

Hi C4C,

I’ll post back with my thoughts. I don’t view this issue as a simple one as many factors come into play.

[aimee]

Hi Akari,

I found this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22805303 in which significant improvement was demonstrated through the use of a veterinary joint support diet. This study was double blinded and placebo controlled and used force plate analysis to measure the amount of weight the dog was willing to bear on the limb, so I do think joint diets have a place in managing arthritis. I can’t tell from the abstract which company’s product was used, but I don’t think it was Hills as their Omega 3 looks to be more ALA based.

I wouldn’t rotate the diet unless to one of similar EPA/DHA content and Omega 6/3 ratio otherwise I’d think the benefits would be lost. It takes time ( 6 weeks???) to incorporate the fatty acids into the cells and if you change off you may switch before any benefit would be seen.

With a Omega 6:3 ratio of 1.7:1 it may be difficult achieve that with supplementation of a standard diet. If your vet thinks it is appropriate I’d most definitely give this diet a trial of at least 3 months. It has a nice nutrient profile and nice ingredient line up!

[aimee]

Hi weezerweeks,

Perhaps you could take him out late at night/early am to empty his bladder so that waiting until 8:30 won’t be so long of a time. As Melissa said the first am urine is usually the most concentrated as the dog usually isn’t eating and drinking overnight.

A nurse once told me that for infants they attach a bag via sticky can’t say I’ve ever heard of that being tried in a dog LOL With a previous dog I had I could never get a sample at home territory but on a walk she was so engaged with the good smell that she was marking over… I could easily catch one.

With my current male, nearly impossible …he hikes so high and so close to an object and is so wary of anything approaching but he is an avid marker of anything novel. I took advantage of that to get a sample by laying down a very large plastic garbage bag placing a plastic container from recycle on it and walking away. Quick as wink he investigated what was laying on the floor and peed on it : )

Good Luck

[aimee]

Hi Vicki,

Yeast infections are nearly always caused by Malassezia, a fat loving yeast. Yeast infections are usually secondary to something that is altering the surface of the skin such as food allergy/adverse food reactions, environmental allergies, hormonal conditions, and parasites. If an underlying primary problem isn’t controlled the problem continues.

Food’s primary role in yeast infections is if the food is causing an adverse reaction. The proportions of fat/ carb or protein in the diet has never been linked to Malassezia dermatitis nor been found to help control it in any way. A food elimination trial could be done to identify if that is playing a role.

This article is a but technical but hopefully you can find it helpful http://www.pinnaclifeanimalhealth.com/sites/default/files/research/Malassezia%20Matousek.pdf

[aimee]

HDM,

There was never any doubt in my mind that you’d be accepted: )

[aimee]

I’m very comfortable with the safety of heartworm preventatives. I give the preventative once a month and treat for at least 3 months past the last possible exposure. I do not use an extended duration of 45 days because in the original studies using heartgard dogs became heartworm positive when dosed at 45 days.

I extend out for at least three months beyond exposure because dogs given only one dose ( moxidectin was effective with one dose) after exposure became heartworm positive but when dosed for 3 consecutive months did not. I do not like heartworms and as I’m in a heartworm endemic area will not risk it.

[aimee]

Hi Jakes Mom,

I understand that is the information that the manufacturer is trying to convey, but it simply isn’t allowed to do so. The label is in flagrant violation. Either one of two things happened here. Either the company is ignorant of labeling rules or the company is willing to ignore them. Neither in my mind is acceptable.

[aimee]

Hi Peter,

I haven’t looked at Farmina so I can’t comment on the company/food. In regard to Nature’s Logic, the concept is appealing but because the foods do not have supplements they fall far short of AAFCO requirements. For example AAFCO min Vit D is 500 IU/kg and NL reports 175 IU/kg, AAFCO Vit E 50 IU/kg and NL reports 21.34 IU/kg.

In actuality though the nutrient content in most of NL formulas is unknown as the owner has told me he only tested one diet, the chicken variety, and then posted the same numbers with some minor variation for all the diets. I find that extremely irresponsible! UGH!!! One of the diets has been through AAFCO feed testing and the others use the family rule to substantiate the AAFCO label.

When I last inquired the person formulating the diets was the owner Scott Feeman. His degree is in marketing. In talking to him I found that he doesn’t understand very basic nutritional concepts, for example that Vit D is a dietary requirement in the dog. He told me not to worry about his diets being low in Vit D… I just need to let my dog sit by a sunny window. Oiy Via!

I asked what type of testing he does on the ingredients used in his food and he said none and at the time I talked to him he didn’t seem certain as to what post production testing was done at the co packers he uses.

I think the company excels at what the owner’s degree is in: marketing. When it comes to nourishing a dog: shaky ground. On the positive side one of the diets has passed a feeding trial.

[aimee]

Dori,

The Facebook page was temporarily removed. This removal coincided with several people asking where and when their Beef and Egg formula was made and closely followed the closure of the chat room.

I think Brothers panicked when people started asking where and when the food was made. Current and potential consumers would likely not consider Brothers “the freshest kibble in the world” if they knew that the “short period of time” that food was kept prior to sale could be a year or more.

Dori and Aquariangt

In regards to the label the phrase “Human Grade Proteins” would be in violation. To say such a thing the proteins would have to be fit for human consumption which they clearly are not as they are rendered meals.

From AAFCO “A claim that something is “human-grade” or “human-quality” implies that the article being referred to is “edible” for people in legally defined terms…… making an unqualified claim about ingredients being human grade misbrands the product.”

http://petfood.aafco.org/LabelingLabelingRequirements.aspx

[aimee]

Hi Peter S,

I considered using their food but ultimately decided not to. The labeling of their products violates labeling laws which in my mind is never a good thing.

In regards to freshness, if that is important to you, I’d recommend you call and ask for the manufacture date before purchasing. The company has in the past offered discounts on their food as it was near expiration date, which is usually 12-18 months post manufacturing, indicating that sometimes their products are stored for a prolonged period before sale.

The company closed its chat room and temporarily removed their facebook page when posters started asking question regarding the dates of manufacture.

[aimee]

When adding supplements to a dog’s diet they shouldn’t make up more then 10% of the caloric intake. I use fresh foods whole foods as supplements: veggies, fruits ( no grapes raisins, currents, onions, garlic ) DHA,EPA ( fish oils).

I’m not sure what you mean by rotating boiled chicken and rice with Fromm. Boiled chicken and rice is missing many nutrients and as such is not a suitable to use as a meal on an ongoing basis. If using boiled chicken and rice it should not make up more than 10% of the calories fed that day unless you are balancing your homemade food.

[aimee]

Karen J,

Keep in mind that “In healthy dogs, more than 50% of urine samples will contain
struvite crystals without a bacterial urinary tract infection and without subsequent urolith formation ”

Joe Bartges DVM PhD ACVIM ACVN http://www.wvc.org/images/session_notes_2013/2013_SA323.pdf

Personally, if my dog had struvite crystals in the urine and infection was not present I wouldn’t be the least bit concerned.

[Author]

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