Taurine-Deficient Cardiomyopathy Podcast

Dog Food Advisor Forums Diet and Health Taurine-Deficient Cardiomyopathy Podcast

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  • #127529 Report Abuse
    anonymous
    Member

    I don’t see Fromm or any specific dog food brands mentioned in any of the links (reliable ones not FB) provided.

    I think you have Fromm confused with Zignature regarding the recent adding of taurine.

    #127530 Report Abuse
    anonymous
    Member

    “Fromm Classic Adult (purple bag original 1949 recipe) and Pro Plan Focus Salmon”

    Both foods mentioned have grains. No legumes. No potato. No exotic ingredients.

    They are not “BEG” diets. My opinion.

    http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/?fbclid=IwAR3Lw5XuEX3em69yqkCMbV7ncb5a7hfur3apuxiafNlUfuAQPr0YO3n16BM (excerpt below)
    It’s not just grain-free. This does not appear to be just an issue with grain-free diets. I am calling the suspected diets, “BEG” diets – boutique companies, exotic ingredients, or grain-free diets. The apparent link between BEG diets and DCM may be due to ingredients used to replace grains in grain-free diets, such as lentils or chickpeas, but also may be due to other common ingredients commonly found in BEG diets, such as exotic meats, vegetables, and fruits. In addition, not all pet food manufacturers have the same level of nutritional expertise and quality control, and this variability could introduce potential issues with some products.

    #127531 Report Abuse
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    Hey, I’m right there with you. I think the ingredients look good as well. But, I’ve come to realize that I am not a good judge of an ingredient panel. I am now leaving it to the experts. Which, in my opinion are companies that meet the WSAVA guidelines. And, unfortunately, Fromm does not.
    I’m really glad you’re not feeding Zignature anymore though!

    #127532 Report Abuse
    anonymous
    Member

    Again

    No specific dog food brands have been named to be avoided by any reliable source.

    PS: I am still feeding Zignature mixed in with other kibble. No reason not to, for now.

    #127533 Report Abuse
    Bobby dog
    Member

    Ahh yes, Zig jumped on that band wagon in May, Fromm has been doing it longer. Neither company has any research to provide why their diets need added taurine. Neither produce Rx diets only OTC.

    Adding taurine to a canine recipe without research is concerning to me. Most dogs are able to synthesize taurine in their bodies. Some breeds or dogs with health conditions may need added taurine. Healthy dogs should be fine being fed a balanced diet. Why add it to their recipes without any research to back it up? Are their diets insufficient in some way?

    I never mentioned specific Fromm or Purina diets or wrote the links would name brands? Nor are any of the links from or to FB? Freeman provides a definition of “BEG diets” in the links I posted. Fromm meets her definition of a boutique company, the “B” in “BEG.”

    For further clarification re-read the article below, 3rd paragraph provides info on boutique pet food companies and what she takes issue with. Or, post a question to her or Skepvet, both credible sources IMO.
    http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/06/a-broken-heart-risk-of-heart-disease-in-boutique-or-grain-free-diets-and-exotic-ingredients/

    #127534 Report Abuse
    Lisa A
    Member

    anon101 – pending on which formula of Zignature your feeding you might want to reconsider. Because I can’t add an attachment there are dogs who have marginal and low Taurine levels that are eating Zignature venison, kangaroo, duck, turkey, lamb &rice, trout & salmon and Zessential. if you give me your personal email I can send you the file from the facebook site that is collecting this data.

    #127549 Report Abuse
    anonymous
    Member

    No thanks.

    Just using up the Zignature we have left. See no reason to panic.

    I have seen the info you mentioned, Not sure it is reliable, doesn’t really prove anything.

    I will look forward to the results of the FDA investigation

    #127578 Report Abuse
    joanne l
    Member

    Maybe heart disease in dogs is from a lack of nutrients, not just taurine. From what I read about legumes in people, (vegetarians or vegans) if they are eating beans everyday and not in moderation, it can rob the body of minerals such as calcium, magnesium, zinc and forgot the other. With that being said, humans eat other things to have these minerals absorb in the body, where animals don’t. Example: If someone is a vegan or vegetarian and they eat lentils or spinach for iron, well they need to have vitamin c for it to be properly absorbed. They will eat oranges or drink orange juice with the lentils or spinach. Just an example here. In LID grain free diets only have the meat and legumes. Not to mention eaten every day! I will bet that it is possible that their minerals are being robbed because of the legumes in the diet. IMO. Read about legumes, I forgot the web site but type in “to bean or not to bean” you may find it. Very interesting, it may help us understand something.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
    #127580 Report Abuse
    anonymous
    Member

    Depending on what the dog is diagnosed with by the vet or vet tech that examines him; prescription food may be recommended.
    I would hold off on making any dietary changes until you know what you are dealing with.

    Edit: Oops! I meant to post this in your other thread asking for dog food recommendations (dog licking bottom).

    #127581 Report Abuse
    Bobby dog
    Member

    Too many unknowns for sure. Hopefully Dr. Stern and Freeman will have more info soon. One dog affected by a badly formulated diet is one too many for me.

    IMO I think it will boil down to companies making diets that are not researched, nutritionally inadequate, have bad digestibility, people formulating diets with no education in small animal nutrition, and using ingredients without knowledge of how they interact with other ingredients to deliver (or inhibit) vitamin/mineral absorption. There are diets out there that are well researched that use some ingredients that have been listed as suspect, but they have not been implicated in the DCM alert. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm…

    I made the decision to revamp my pet food criteria in light of the alert, too many unknowns. I was mostly feeding diets that met all WSAVA recommendations anyway, a few didn’t so no big deal to stop feeding them. I’ll re-visit when there are answers from the pros. Even if there is just a remote possibility that a diet can harm him I’m just not willing to gamble with his health.

    #127659 Report Abuse
    Susan
    Participant

    UPDATE
    “It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy”
    by Lisa M. Freeman, DVM, PhD, DACVN
    November 29, 2018

    Common Questions
    Question-3
    > If my dog is eating a BEG diet but has no symptoms, should I test for DCM or switch to a different diet?
    Answer>
    “It’s unlikely that most dogs eating a BEG diet will develop DCM”. However, given the fact that we don’t yet understand why BEG diets are affecting some dogs and because DCM is a life-threatening disease, I recommend you reconsider your dog’s diet until we know more.

    also there no more information/proof that Sweet Potatoes or Potatoes are causing any of these heart problems…
    Probably why Potatoes have been used in Vet Diets for years…

    This brings some relief when you have a dog that does really well on a Grain Free Potato diet.
    Its very hard for some people who have a dog who has food sensitivities, IBD who can NOT eat grains or eat the vet diets.

    Here’s link to,
    It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy link

    http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/?fbclid=IwAR13RO9VvkV7Xwtk8_DBdPkG141HC8M76DBys5_tWqeTbUu3cYs8Q-tafL8

    #127743 Report Abuse
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    That is the same link that I posted above. I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that potatoes are safe. They are still on the list of suspect ingredients. No, they haven’t proved they are causing harm, but they haven’t quite been been able to prove anything yet other than that there is a correlation. Still not worth the risk as far as I’m concerned.

    My dogs were doing well with potatoes as well, but I’m still not comfortable feeding them. The veterinary diets that include them have a lot of research and testing behind them. I’m not sure that is true with the OTC foods made by companies that do not employ certified veterinary nutritionists, do research and hold feeding trials.

    I know this is a frustrating situation. I hope they come up with some facts soon. There are many different theories rolling around.

    #127753 Report Abuse
    joanne l
    Member

    Hey everyone I have an idea, since all legumes are so out of the ball park for any animal to eat, lets just not feed it for that reason alone. Grains are really not unusual for animals to eat if you think about it. Wolves eat certain grass, could be wheat grass and others who knows. If you think about it, what animal eats legumes? Horses eat hay and some vegtables, deer’s eat berry’s, grass, corn and so forth. Rabbits eat lettuce, carrots and so forth I think you get my drift. However, what animal eats legumes??? It is just an idea since this whole thing is uncertain, this is my idea just not to feed it for those reasons alone. Furthermore there are people who say the same about grains, how they are not species appropriate, but how come they are feeding legumes??? Even squirrels don’t eat beans.
    Here is another article about beans: ttps://paleoflourish.com/paleo-why-legumes-are-bad

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by joanne l.
    #128443 Report Abuse
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    Here is the latest update from the diet-related DCM FB group I belong to. There is a lot of information on this link. Check it out!

    http://www.taurinedcm.org

    #128445 Report Abuse
    Susan
    Participant

    Here’s

    “DCM Study Misses the Big Picture”

    http://truthaboutpetfood.com/dcm-study-misses-the-big-picture/?fbclid=IwAR2LuG3_Kyni4Br7vWMgddX4KBZ2Xue6WI0CHlxY2hwWhPo5d3SDenmSZj4

    Here’s the Taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy in golden retrievers fed commercial diets study.

    Joanna L. Kaplan, Joshua A. Stern, Andrea J. Fascetti, Jennifer A. Larsen,
    Hannah Skolnik, Gordon D. Peddle, Richard D. Kienle,

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0209112&fbclid=IwAR31QNTyUhrXpuy8P0zs-yC81yJ7jnyUgtYuXZrIdBYxLwuq0R2JXecY2ck#sec008

    #137315 Report Abuse
    JR S
    Member

    I will be banned from that group on FB soon because I asked to know which if any (as they have stated) grain inclusive foods are implicated in DCM. Not a question they are willing to give info on. There is something strange going on there.

    #137318 Report Abuse
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    That is just plain not true. They have an article by Lisa Freeman, Veterinary Nutritionist, that states it’s not just grain free.

    #137321 Report Abuse
    JR S
    Member

    Indeed they have said that but have not backed up with which grain inclusive foods are suspected. I am waiting. It is nor Dr. Freeman who I was speaking of if your comment was to me. Is it was pkease read what I wrote again.

    #137322 Report Abuse
    joanne l
    Member

    I did not here much of grain in diets causes DCM, however, exotic meats were also a problem. I think maybe toxins in some of these foods have something to do with it. From what I have seen, it was mostly grain free and expensive brands.
    It is hard to say, but the only thing I can think of is legumes are not good , and exotic meats, I think have certain chemicals in them. They are not getting it from the US. so God only knows where it is coming from and what preservative is being used. The company can tell you they don’t use chemicals to preserve it, but that doesn’t mean who they bought it from did. And they don’t have to disclose that.

    • This reply was modified 3 years ago by joanne l.
    #137347 Report Abuse
    crazy4cats
    Participant

    JRS-
    They actually have a chart that lists the brands that have been submitted to them from dogs that have diet-related DCM. They do not list the actual formula because they said it’s tough to include them on their chart. For example, many of Acana’s Formulas have been implicated. It’s hard to fit them all in. Therefore, they just list the brand. They have to submit the actual results of their echo and then they have to wait and see if they recover with a food change before they are entered on the chart. I believe Fromm has had a few reported that may not have been grain free.

    They might delete your question because it’s been asked before, but I doubt they would ban you. Remember, this chart is only a group community “project”. It is not what is reported to the FDA and only a small percentage of all the dogs. I hope they are being reported to the FDA by the owners.

    #137393 Report Abuse
    JR S
    Member

    crazy4caty, thanks, I have seen the chart. It unfortunately as you state dies not separate grain from not grain so it makes it difficult to know when foods with grain are a problem. Thank you.

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