[crazy4cats]

Here is an informative podcast on Pure DogTalk by Dr. Marty Greer, DVM, JD that I thought some might find interesting:

https://puredogtalk.com/veterinary-voice-nutritionally-mediated-dilated-cardiomyopathy-pure-dog-talk/?fbclid=IwAR1_bGWruAmBGNjW31PeDGLglh77a-FMO4yltS0DX2Qlziahb8ShNfWvd_E

Note: There is a brief commercial intermission followed by more important information, so stay tuned!!!!

[crazy4cats]

Bumping up my post!

[joanne l]

Wow pretty interesting and it seems like more and more they are against grain free. This is something else. I feel so sorry for these dogs and their owners.

[I love Dogs 2]

@ Crazy4cats,
did you have your dogs tested to see if their taurine levels were low

I read through your link, it’s old information, there’s no new info, first and second links are from July 12, 2018, I thought there would be some new information
also Dr. Marty Greer writes

“These alerts identify an associated risk for “some grain-free diets” containing certain ingredients (legumes like peas, pea components, lentils; white potatoes, sweet potatoes) and a diagnosis of dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM)”

So its not all grain free dog foods…

I wonder how cats are going on cat grain free diets, are cats having the same problems as dogs are having?

Seems to be affecting the Golden Retriever breed the most.

[pitlove]

Katie-

Grain free literally has ZERO benefits to your dog. Why would you risk even a SMALL possibility of your dog getting DCM from the food your feeding when there is no reward?

[Spy Car]

Grains have zero benefits for dogs.

That some replacements for unnecessary grains in commercial dog foods may prove to be even worse alternatives than the grains they are replacing doesn’t make grains into a positive.

Arguing otherwise is a logical fallacy.

Carbohydrates and plant proteins are not optimal ingredients for canine nutrition.

Bill

[crazy4cats]

Honestly, I didn’t pay much attention to the links. I enjoyed listening to the podcast. She was discussing some of her experiences with patients and her theories about the issue. Ive read a lot about it. It was nice to hear a discussion.

It’s true, not all dogs are reacting the same. Some are metabolizing the food better than others. But it is not known why yet. It does appear that goldens are more sensitive than other breeds. But it has been established it is not genetic with them. And, other breeds have indeed been affected as well.

I have not had my dogs’ taurine levels checked as I switched foods before I knew about testing. It is recommended to be on the same food for three months before you test. I will be having echoes done in a couple of weeks at a nearby dog show that is having a clinic offering them at a reduced rate.

My dogs are a lab/golden mix and I’ve been rotating grain free along with grain friendly for about 4 or 5 years. Their stools seemed better on gf. Most likely due to being higher in fiber. But, no more gf for us! Not worth the risk. I’d rather have loose stools than broken hearts. Some of the heart breaking stores on the FB page, the owners say that their dogs showed no symptoms before their hearts were too damaged to repair.

I think it’s sad people think it’s a conspiracy. I don’t know how anyone could get so many different organizations on board with the “lie”. I hope someone finds this info helpful. 🐶

[crazy4cats]

Actually many grains contain the amino acids necessary for dogs to synthesize their own taurine. There are a surprising number of raw fed dogs showing up as taurine deficient in the ongoing study. (Both the official and the unofficial FB)

Carbs are a great source of energy for dogs.

[Spy Car]

Carbs are NOT a great energy source for dogs. Simply untrue. Carbs will flood muscles with glycogen (while whacking out dog’s blood sugar responses) but that spike of energy is very short lived and isn’t sustainable. Carbs lead to a classic boom and bust in energy.

In contrast, fat metabolism provides dogs with a nearly limitless energy supply and one that doesn’t spike blood sugar responses.

Endurance, vitality, and stamina of dogs who burn fat are far higher than dogs fed high carb diets. Carbohydrates decondition dogs.

Dogs have zero need for grains or other carbohydrates in their diets. They are a pure negative and are included in modern processed foods only as a profit-boosting measure.

Bill

[anonymous]

These comments are just opinions.

If you have concerns regarding grain free food just consult the vet that you go to for annual checkups. They know your dog and it’s history and would be the best person to advise you.

I am actually mixing grain free with grain inclusive with good results!

My allergy dog seems less itchy on grain free, I will discuss when we see the dermatologist for our annual appointment.

[joanne l]

Spy Car, I think everyone knows that, but most dog foods have fillers. So I would take the grains before the peas. Not everyone can afford a meat base diet. It is clear that dogs don’t need fillers, but we are talking about grain free and grains, and yes I think grains are better if you are using dry dog food, unless of course a dog is allergic to grains.

[Spy Car]

@anon101, innumerable scientific studies have demonstrated beyond doubt that fat-metabolism provides a far superior and sustainable energy source for dogs compared with burning carbohydrates.

Studies have ranged from sled dogs, to hunting dogs, to greyhounds, to ordinary “couch potato” dogs. All point to the same results. Dogs fed a high-fat diet have improved stamina and dramatically higher endurance as measure my VO2 Max scores that dogs fed high-carb diets.

To say this established science is “only opinion” flies in the face of the published nutritional literature. It is simply untrue. This is one of the most studied and conclusively demonstrated matters in all of canine veterinary nutritional science.

You are dead wrong on the science here.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@joanne l, I don’t think that everyone knows (or agrees) that grains are empty fillers that are in dog food only to reduce cost and that they are unnecessary and detrimental to optimal condition.

IMO the problems with alternative fillers (like peas) are being used to absolve grains form their problematic role in canine rations and to even lift them up as a positive feature in dog food when that’s not the case.

Being less bad that an alternative doesn’t bad a bad ingredient into a good one.

As to cost, I’m able to feed a balance PMR-style diet for no more than I’d spend on a so-called premium kibble. And every dollar goes towards optimal nutrition rather than processed cereals and rendered animal products.

The concerns about peas (etc) should not be used to rehabilitate fillers like grains as positive ingredients. They are cost cutting fillers whose inclusion in dog food comes at a cost to the vitality and condition of dogs that consume it.

Bill

[Patricia A]

I’m curious Bill if a kibble that has peas/legumes high up the their ingredient list but does not displace meat being it’s main protein source is safe. I feed Stella Chewy’s kibble albeit as a VERY small portion of my dogs diet. Primarily their fed Primal, Bixbi and Stella’s freeze dried. Home cooked from our meals when appropriate. I Dr. Mikes reviews as a starting point on what to feed. So I’m going by reviews of Stella’s kibble as showing an abundance of meat even though the legumes are high up on the list. A little confused about this. Dr. Mike never lowered his 5 star reviews even when the legumes were high on the ingredient list. So i imagine you can have the peas but a high quality kibble would still have the majority of protein coming from meat. Hope I’m making sense.
I’m hoping that the study comes back that it’s not the peas causing low taurine but the peas being the main sauce of protein and meat protein lacking.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Patricia A.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Patricia A.

[Spy Car]

@Patricia A, it doesn’t seem the evidence is conclusive at this point. I certainly don’t claim to have the answer to whether small-to-moderate amounts of pea protein are high risk or not.

If I had a breed that was predisposed towards taurine deficiently I think I’d take extra precautions (including blood tests) are the ramifications are quite dire.

Bill

[Spy Car]

@anon101, not sure if your last post is addressed to me (or not) but rest assured that I don’t feed my dog road kill. All his meals come from ingredients that pass USDA inspection for human consumption.

It is a shame you try to slander others when the science isn’t on your side. Bad show.

Bill

[I love Dogs 2]

@Pitlove
You wrote

“Grain free literally has ZERO benefits to your dog. Why would you risk even a SMALL possibility of your dog getting DCM from the food your feeding when there is no reward?”

How dare you say Im putting my dog at risk?
How can you put this information out there
“grain free foods have ZERO benefits to your dog”
Where is your evidence to support these claim?

My vet prescribe her Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Canine Gastrointestinal grain dry food first, it made her symptoms worse, then the vet put her on grain free Royal Canine Veterinary Diet Canine Selected Protein Adult PR Potato & Rabbit dry dog food straight away she improved, this dog was given to me after her mum had passed away the family were taking her to a shelter, Im her neighbour I know Chloe so I said I’ll take her, from what I can remember she was raw feed her whole life, so I dont know if family members feed her a cheap grain dry dog food this is why is became very ill, vet said it looks like food allergy, since being on grain free Royal Canine vet diet she has gain weight she looks better then she looked 4 months ago when she came into my care, she has energy now wants to play with her brother, the vet said we’ll keep her on the Royal Canine PR for another 3 months then come back again we’ll discuss what to do next (put back onto raw diet).
I asked the vet are potatoes OK, I was reading the ingredients on the Royal Canine food bag, he said potatoes are fine, he has been selling Royal Canine PR vet diet for years there have been no food related DCM cases no problems with potato.

Shame on you, you need to stop putting fear into people put your beliefs aside till we have more proof DCM is food related?…

[crazy4cats]

Hi Katie R-
I am going to venture to guess that Pitlove was not referring to any Rx grain free kibble. I don’t know her, but have been seeing her posts for the last few years. She is a vet tech and supports Rx diets when needed. I’m sorry if you were offended. I am confident that she did not mean to.
On the taurine-deficient DCM FB site, this question has come up several times. The Admins in the group state that grain free Rx diets are safe. They are very well researched and tested. The dogs are in the care of a veterinarian and there is no concern with them causing DCM. I believe there are a couple on the taurine data chart.

There is so much information on that page. Unfortunately, it’s getting tougher to wade through all the posts because there are over 9,000 members now! The admins are in touch with Joshua Stern from UC Davis, who is also in touch with the FDA regarding this research. Today there was a post about a 3 year old German Short Haired Pointer that was just diagnosed with severe DCM who had been eating Acana Lamb. He lives in Canada. I hope it can be reversed with a different diet. So sad.

They have already proved that many cases are food related as the DCM can be reversed when fed a new diet. They just don’t know what it is about the food that is causing it yet. Fingers crossed it will be figured out soon!

[Spy Car]

What is imperative to remember is that a lack of grain isn’t the cause of DCM.

That point keeps getting conflated in the discussion of “grain-free” diets.

Bill

[pitlove]

Katie-

Your dog is not improving on a rX diet because it is grain free. It is because it is free of an ingredient that bothers your dogs GI tract. As Crazy4cats stated I am a licensed vet tech and I 100% support rX diets as I’ve seen the wonders they do. I am talking about OTC grain free diets that are designed with the sole purpose of marketing to naive pet owners who think they are feeding a superior product because grains are absent from the diet. Not rX diets that are formulated through extensive testing and research.

[Spy Car]

Again, the problem with so-called grain-free processed kibble diets is likely due to an ingredient (or combination of ingredients) that is interfering with taurine.

The problem is NOT due to a lack of grain in the diet. Many people have been hoping to avoid the obvious issues with overfeeding carbohydrates in the form of grains and it appears many of the grain-free kibbles created other problems. But the problems do not stem from a lack of grain consumption.

Dogs do not have an essential need for carbohydrates in their diets, whether from grains or other sources. Likewise, substituting incomplete plant protein sources for complete animal proteins is not in the interest of a dog’s health and well-being.

Bill

[joanne l]

I am taking a guess here, that it is not peas in general. I think since the peas and chickpeas are so HIGH in protein it is calculated in the protein % and it boosts the protein more than the meat. That is just a guess, but it could be the combination of the diet and also eating it on a daily basis. I think if the dog just ate it occasionally I don’t think it is a problem. Something is interfering with taurine like Bill mentioned. Years ago dog food never had a taurine supplement in their food because it is known that dogs make their own taurine and cats don’t so cat food always had a taurine supplement. I know that Purina does not use taurine and I ask them why and that is what they said as well. So I can’t understand todays day and age with this taurine problem. I don’t think dogs had this problem years ago from what I understand.
By the way Bill what do you feed your dog?

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by joanne l.

[Lisa A]

We just learned about DCM a week ago from our vet during an appointment for an ear infection on our 3 yr old golden. I’ve been reading information every night and trying to figure out what to do. We are currently on a grain free lamb food by Zignature, that is due to our golden having allergies to Chicken. He was on prescription food for the first 1+ of his life and after he was stable we were able to move to over the counter, mainly due to the prescription food he was on which was venison – they were having trouble sourcing quality ingredients so the food was discontinued. Now I don’t know what to do. Its nearly impossible to find a grain inclusive food that doesn’t contain a single source protein, prefer beef, vision, or lamb. We spoke with our vet last night and she suggested – https://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/dry/limited-ingredient-diets/lamb-meal-and-brown-rice. I would love to hear others thoughts.

[joanne l]

How about Purina Pro Plan lamb and oatmeal for sensitive skin and stomach, that doesn’t have chicken. Another one is Health extensions lamb and rice, no chicken in it, look it up on chewy. The other one is Holistic Select lamb and rice, that one has chicken fat but I don’t know if your dog can have chicken fat, it is usually not a problem it is more or less the protein, meaning chicken meat. You can try natural balance, but I am trying to give you more choices. Another one is Nature’s Variety lamb and oatmeal, now the only thing with this one is it has turkey as the 5th ingredient, but very good food. Then there is American Natural Premium lamb and rice no chicken, but not popular, that is on chewy too. Hope this helps, if I find any more I will let you know. Oh by the way I know many don’t like Purina pro plan, but a lot of people I know that have goldens use it with success. But the one that doesn’t contain any kind of chicken is the one I mentioned.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by joanne l.

[Lisa A]

Thanks Joanne. Most of those foods you gave me have other protein aside from lamb and due to our pups sensitive GI, our vet prefers single source protein. I do appreciate the suggestions if you have any others I’m happy to look those up.

[Susan]

Hi Lisa,

Have a look at “Farmina” it was suppose to be all sold out but a delivery was coming November, you can buy direct from Farmina, alot of people who do not like Purina, Hills & Royal Canine are feeding Farmina, there’s a few different Farmina formula’s.
https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop-d-Dog-food.html

“Wellness”

For Dogs

Or go onto an online pet store site like “Chewy” & go thru a few different dry foods ingredients, then if you do find 1 you like go onto the pet food site to check ingredients again to make sure they’re correct..

[joanne l]

Hi Lisa I guess Natural Balance looks like your best bet, I did find another one it is called wellness lamb and oatmeal simple, it is just one protein. The Holistic Select lamb I mentioned only has lamb, but it does have chicken fat. Can your dog have chicken fat? it is not the protein so it should be okay ask your vet about it. And your right there are not too many foods out there that are limited ingredient that have grains they are all grain free. These companies should start making LID diets with grains. Not everyone wants grain free! I feel the same way I wish there were more grain in LID diets to.
Its funny years ago that is all they had “one protein and grains” that was the standard food. Now since they are putting in 2 or 3 proteins, they have to make LID diets, that were original made years ago. I have to laugh these companies are so messed up. Or it is there way of making more money.

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by joanne l.
• This reply was modified 6 years ago by joanne l.

[Lisa A]

Hi Susan,

Our vet doesn’t particularly like the Wellness line. And we did look at Farmina but it has other protein sources and not a single source protein which our vet prefers. We are currently on Zignature lamb but I was looking at their beef and it doesn’t look too bad… I’m going to ask our vet about that one.

[Susan]

Hi Lisa,

I’d stay away from Zignature as it was 1 of the brands + (Acana) that had a few diet related DCM causes…
I didn’t know Zignature make a beef formula? they have Pork or Goat, Zignature is very high in Legumes, Legumes need to be avoid till they work out what ingredients are causing these heart problems, no more then 20% legumes, so more meat proteins in the first 2-3 ingredients, not plant proteins…

Have you looked at Pork, there might be more LID pork formula’s?? my IBD boy does really well on Pork, “Canidae Pure Wild”
https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products/canidae-grain-free-pure-wild-dry-formula

Have you done a proper elimination diet to work out his food sensitivities when he was on a vet diet that agreed with him? it’s the only why to know 100% what meats he is sensitive too.. just add some raw or cooked meat with his vet diet he did well on this way you will know 100%

You have to remember when these grain free dry foods first came out they were all potato or sweet potato, tapioca & we didnt have any problems with DCM in dogs like we are having now with these newer grainfree dry foods that started to use Lentils, Chickpeas to replace the meat proteins.

“Natural Balance” grain free formulas are also pretty good for dogs with sensitive stomach/bowel, alot of people feed the Fish & Sweet Potatos or the Duck & Potato, these 2 Natural Balance formula’s are legume free…

I rotate between a few G/F dry foods that my boy does well on, my boy is doing excellent on the “Wellness Simple” Turkey & Potato at the moment, years ago he ate the Lamb & Oatmeal but started to do sloppy poos after 3 weeks, he doesnt seem to do well on grains formula’s as he has gotten older, he has a beautiful shiney coat, still holding his weight at 18kg-40lbs & only doing 2 firm poos a day on the Weillness Simple Turkey…

Oh did you look at the Farmina Vet Life formula’s
https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop-dog/dog-food/8-farmina-vet-life-canine.html

Hopefully they’ll have some answer soon, as there’s alot of stressed out people who own Goldens & Labrodors, this breed seems to be affected the most..

[Lisa A]

Hi Susan,

Yes he was on a vet prescribed diet that is how we figured out he was allergic to chicken. We Once we eliminated the chicken his stool improved immediately but the prescription food was no longer sourced due to getting quality venison. That’s when we started LID/grain free over the counter and he didn’t do well on Venison/Sweet potato from Natural Balance thats when we moved to Zignature Lamb and he’s done really well.

Sorry I did mean Zignature Pork.. they don’t make beef. This is what’s inside the zignature pork – Pork, Pork Meal, Peas, Pea Flour, Chickpeas, Pork Fat, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Choline Chloride, Salt, Taurine, Vitamins (Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate), Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols.

The Canidae Pure Wild has sweet potatoes, peas, chickpeas as the first set of ingredients where as the Zignature doesn’t have any potatoes but does have peas/chickpeas.

The only one so far our vet likes from the over the counter is the Natural Balance LID Lamb but I am concerned with the ingredients below, not the highest quality starting with lamb meal but it doesn’t have any legumes or peas or potatoes.

Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Brewers Rice, Rice Bran, Canola Oil (Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Lactic Acid), Lamb, Dried Tomato Pomace, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Flavor, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Inositol, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta-Carotene, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin), Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Citric Acid (used as a preservative), Rosemary Extract.

The Farmina Vet Life formula’s food when I look up what they recommend for GI one has chicken in it and the other has two types of protein. Our vet prefers single source protein.

I am totally confused and at a loss on what to do dispite the vet telling us to go with Natural Balance LID Lamb and Rice.

[Susan]

Hi Lisa,

Have you looked at “Victor” Select Protein formula’s
there’s Lamb Meal & Brown Rice, Beef Meal & Brown Rice, Ocean Fish Formula with Salmon Brown Rice.
https://victorpetfood.com/products

“Triumph” Simply Six Lamb Meal, Brown Rice & Pea Recipe Dry Dog Food
https://www.chewy.com/triumph-simply-six-limited-ingredient/dp/127978

You know your dog best, so go with what you feel will work best for your dog..

[crazy4cats]

Hi Lisa A-
I’m glad your vet notified you about diet related DCM. There is a FB group dedicated to this issue called Taurine-Deficient cardiomyopathy. The cardiologist that is leading one of the research groups from UCDavis belongs and pops in every now and then to give advice. There is also a team of mostly knowledgable admins that run the site. Check it out!

Many of the members whose dogs cannot tolerate chicken have transitioned their dogs off of suspect diets to the Purina ProPlan Sensitive Stomach Salmon recipe.

As I think Susan mentioned, Acana and Zignature have been mentioned quite often when people have reported their dogs either have either low taurine or actual DCM. Remember, it’s tough to rate an ingredient label. So, I have officially given it up and leave it to the experts to know which ingredients work well together to deliver an appropriate nutrient package to my dogs. Surprisingly, a number of raw and homemade fed dogs are also turning up taurine deficient.

At this point in time, I’d stay totally away from the suspect ingredients (legumes and potatoes) and stick with a brand that has been around for a while that has proven to be safe. I switched to Purina and will stick with either them or Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Hill’s or Iams. They all have veterinary nutritionists on staff, do research, feeding trials and own their own facilities.

Btw, I think the ingredients of Natural Balance look fine. It doesn’t contain any of the suspect ones. It contains some of the building blocks for dogs to synthesize their own taurine. I’m not sure about that brand though but if your vet is good with it, give it a go! Or, try out the PPP salmon formula. Good luck!

[Lisa A]

Hi Crazy4cats,

Thanks for the info. I will ask the vet about ProPlan Sensitive Stomach Salmon recipe, she typically likes a single source protein and this has fish meal too, not sure how she will feel about it. I do like that the first ingredient is Salmon and not some type of meal. She suggested we go to L.I.D. Limited Ingredient Diets® Lamb Meal & Brown Rice Large Breed Bites® Dry Dog Formula but others have told me lamb is a low taurine food and I also don’t like that the first ingredient is lamb meal. I’ve spent days reading ingredient list and because he is allergic to chicken and we need a single source protein I’m going crazy. Just want the very best for our pup he is 3 and hope he lives a long life.

[Susan]

Hi Lisa,
you want the meat protein to be a meal, not just the single meat “Lamb”, you want to feed more “meat proteins” less plant proteins….
When ingredient list are written they’re raw not cooked, so after you cook the salmon it shrinks 70% is water & is no longer 1st ingredient no more, its about 4th ingredient & the next ingredient is first ingredient so you probably have a carb as first ingredient instead of a meat, you want a dry kibble that has at least 2-3 meat proteins as 1st, 2nd & 3rd ingredient then the carb eg, Pork, then Pork Meal, Bison Meal then the carb, sweet potato, rice, peas, etc..or Lamb, Lamb Meal, brown rice, oats, peas

Patch has IBD & finally he is doing really well & its cause he is finally eating more meat & less carbs…I rotate his foods & he’s eating Wellness Core Large Breed Adult formula, Large Breed formula’s are made for a large Breed bowel, this is when he started to do really well cause he was eating more meat less carbs. 70% meat proteins & 30% carbs…
When you have a sensitive dog you want more meat in their diet, dogs have a short digestive tract its made to digest raw meat, meat is easier to digest then a heap of carbs… Your dog can react to carbs aswell meat proteins..
When you just feed 1 meat protein year after year & do not rotate & change meat proteins this is when the dog can start to react to the single meat protein he’s been eating year after year..this is why its best to change & rotate your dogs food so this doesnt happen…
Find 2-3 brands with a different meat proteins your dog can eat & does well on & change dry food proteins with the Seasons, I use to feed Whitefish/Salmon in the hotter months – Spring & Summer then Lamb & Pork in the cooler months – Winter.

Here’s “Wellness Complete Health Adult Whitefish & Sweet Potato dry,
it has “Whitefish” first ingredient & its not a meal what you’re looking for.
When you see a fish you want the fish name, not a fish meal, you do not know what type of fish it is with fish meal?? it should say Sardines, Salmon meal, or Salmon, Sardine meal, Whitefish, Menhaden fish meal,

Here’s the ingredients, there’s NO chicken..
Whitefish, Ground Barley, Peas, Menhaden Fish Meal, Oatmeal, Sweet Potatoes, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Ground Flaxseed, Natural Fish Flavor, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Zinc Proteinate, Mixed Tocopherols Added to Preserve Freshness, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium.
https://www.chewy.com/wellness-complete-health-adult/dp/34375

Wellness is a good dog food & have been around over 100yrs… this formula will agree with your dog….if you like another brand of dry food put it on your list so you have about 2-3 different dry food you can introduce over 10 days & then rotate them every 3-4 months..

Here’s DFA explaining Meat & Meal Meals, in the review section on a dry chicken & menhaden fish meal dog food..

The first ingredient in this dog food is chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains up to 73% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.
After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.
The second ingredient is menhaden fish “meal”. Because it is considered a meat concentrate, fish meal contains almost 300% more protein than fresh fish itself.

Give the “Natural Balance Lamb Meal & Rice Large Breed” a go & see how he goes, then have a few other dry foods on your list so you can try later on so you know if you can’t get the food he’s eating or something happens you know he can also eat another dry food that has a different meat protein & is OK & has no diarrhea….

[Lisa A]

Thanks Susan, I agree its good to rotate the proteins as I know dogs can become allergic after eating the same one. I didn’t know that information regarding meal in food but that makes it even hard to find something that has 1-4 ingredients as protein vs a carb and no chicken.

Right now I am most concerned with finding something that won’t put our pup at risk due to the increased awareness around DCM.

Wellness Complete Health Adult Whitefish & Sweet Potato dry – based on what I have read you want to stay away from peas and potatoes and when I recommended a different Wellness food to our vet last week she preferred Natural Balance over Wellness.

I am going to review the Purina Pro plan – sensitive skin and stomach salmon and rice formula with our vet to see if she agrees we should give that a go.

[crazy4cats]

Good luck, Lisa. I switched to Purina ProPlan large breed weight management and my dogs are doing just fine.

I noticed the salmon recipe is quite a bit higher in calories than my dogs are used to. I’m not sure how it compares to what you’ve been feeding though. You may have to feed a little less.

[Lisa A]

We are going to try this one – https://www.proplan.com/dogs/products/focus-adult-sensitive-skin-stomach-salmon-rice-formula#feeding

its actually almost the same calories to what we are currently feeding on the grain free diet.

[joanne l]

Hi I found this article about grains and grain free diets I thought I would see what everyone thinks about it. https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blogs/10-debunking-pet-food-myths-and-misconceptions/post/6602-why-grain-free-pet-food-isnt-better-and-carbs-are-good

[crazy4cats]

Thanks, Joanne, interesting stuff. It basically confirms a lot of the other stuff I’ve read. I do try to keep an eye on the amount of fat and calories in the kibble I feed both my dogs and cats. My dogs are neutered male labs that tend to get chubby and my cats are indoor only.

I’ve never really thought that grain free food could be better, but did rotate it along with grain in food to my dogs anyway. NO MORE!!!

[Patricia A]

Thank’s A LOT Joanne for that read!! Now I’m even more confused then before if that’s possible. LOL!! I was still on the fence about grain or no grain but at least I THOUGHT I was doing the right thing when I listened to the voice in my head telling me always “carbs are bad, carbs are bad” “dogs don’t need carbs in their diet”.
I won’t yell at my hubby anymore for sneaking in those pieces of sweet potatoes in their freeze dried. lol

• This reply was modified 5 years, 11 months ago by Patricia A.

[joanne l]

Hi everyone I am glad you enjoyed that article. I like to research, well I also found this article because I was looking at Dr Harvey’s food and he explains about grain free and why he don’t recommended it especially for puppy’s. His post is not recent, however I think he knows what he is saying so check this out.
https://www.drharveys.com/blog/post/22-the-grain-controversy-are-grain-free-dog-foods-the-answer

[crazy4cats]

Here is an update from Lisa Freeman who is considered to be the ultimate authority on nutritional aspects of cardiac disease in dogs. She is a board certified Veterinary Nutritionist that largely focuses on heart disease. I find this to be very interesting. Seems they are finding the latest rise in DCM in dogs and cats is not only related to taurine deficiency. Check it out!

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy

[anonymous]

Thanks for posting this.
Although we have had no problems with Zignature.
We have transitioned to Fromm Classic Adult (purple bag original 1949 recipe) and Pro Plan Focus Salmon with good results.

Not worth the risk, imo.

[crazy4cats]

You’re welcome. I also originally switched to Fromm, but now have made the switch to Purina ProPlan. I have recently learned that Fromm does not meet WSAVA guidelines and falls more under the Boutique category. Having large golden retriever/lab mix dogs, I am not taking any chances at all. Their breed seems to be more at risk.

The brands that I know of that meet the guidelines are: Royal Canin, Purina, Hills, and Eukanuba. Also, have learned that you absolutely cannot judge a food by its ingredient label.

[Lisa A]

There is a group in Facebook called Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy — they have a file where they are collecting blood test results and listing what type of dog food is used. Unfortunately there are dogs eating Zignature that have been diagnosed with DCM. We’ve been feeding our golden Zignature lamb for over a year and making the switch to Purina Pro Plan Salmon and we are moving forward with the whole blood test next week for piece of mind.

[anonymous]

Quote: “I have recently learned that Fromm does not meet WSAVA guidelines and falls more under the Boutique category”.

Yes, that’s why I stick to the original Fromm formula only. They probably had to join the grain-free fad to stay relevant (unfortunately).

Paul Newman has a grain inclusive food/kibble that has never had a recall, worth checking out.

I just ask my vet during routine appointments, if I have any concerns regarding a product.

[crazy4cats]

Hi Lisa A-
I belong to that FB group. As a matter of fact, that is where I got this article from! There are so many members on it now that, sometimes it’s hard to pull out the facts.

Good luck with your pup! I hope you get the peace of mind you are looking for.

[anonymous]

Quote: “I have recently learned that Fromm does not meet WSAVA guidelines and falls more under the Boutique category”.

BTW: I do not believe the above opinion, nor do I participate in Facebook.
Too much misinformation.

[crazy4cats]

Yet, you participate on this site? Lol! Talk about misinformation!

I believe sites like this are one of the reasons we got into this situation to begin with. High ratings for boutique foods with ingredients that are appealing to humans. Foods that have not been tested and have no veterinarian nutritionists on staff are starting to show very ill effects in our dogs.

Yes, this is an opinion!

[Bobby dog]

I agree lots of misinformation and opinions on FB and the Internet. For clarification it is not just GF diets that appear to be an issue.

“I have recently learned that Fromm does not meet WSAVA guidelines and falls more under the Boutique category.” Not c4c’s opinion, Fromm falls under Freeman’s definition of “BEG” diets.

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy

Fromm produces 56 dog recipes and 24 cat recipes. For me that’s too many recipes to produce without employing at least one (hopefully more) full-time ACVN credentialed Vet or PhD animal nutritionist. There’s no research behind these diets and now they are adding taurine to their recipes without any research to back up this modification among other red flags. Over supplementation anyone?!?!

As far as Fromm not meeting WSAVA recommendations, not opinion either, they don’t meet them simple as that.
WSAVA recommendations:
https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Arpita-and-Emma-editorial/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

Rather than relying on FB or the Internet I like to contact pet food companies myself to ask questions. Give it a try, Fromm or any other company will either meet your standards or they won’t… Looked into Newman’s years ago, they wouldn’t name where they produced and manufactured their foods. Maybe that policy has changed since I last contacted them.

Used to feed Fromm, don’t anymore because they don’t meet my pet food criteria.

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