[Kim B]

Hi Pitlove,
Did you received the email that I sent with the details on the Canidae foods? I could not tell if it was successful or not.
Thank you so much for your help with this!

[pitlove]

Hi Kim-

I don’t see a post here. Where did you try to send it? If you can post it here that would be great

[pitlove]

Hi Nadine-

The main thing to be looking for in a large breed puppy food is an appropriate calcium/phosphorus ratio and an appropriate calcium/calorie ratio. Dr. Mike has a nicely written article with a calculator attacted that will tell you if the food you choose is appropriate for a large breed.

/best-dog-foods/best-large-breed-puppy-food/

I don’t know what your reasoning for staying away from carbs were but dogs can very easily digest and utilize foods with up to 50% carbs.

If you want a good Dane food I would recommend Precise Holistic Complete Large & Giant Breed Puppy. It was formulated by an ex-Great Dane breeder. My boyfriends brother used it for his Dane and he grew perfectly. It is not grain free. I also personally have a dog that can not eat grain free foods or he gets sick, so I avoid them like the plague.

[Nadine H]

Thanks pitlove. I checked the Canidae turkey and it was 34.3 per 1000 kcal and 1.3 to 1 cal to phos. Not really sure if I know how to read the results. I actually have a bag of the Precise in my pantry. i thought the canidae had better ingredients but I’ll take another look. I think the one thing I liked about Canidae is how responsive their cs is. Haven’t had a lot of luck getting hold of precise with questions. As far as looking at low carb i was told feeding high carb kibble was like feeding pizza. I’ve been feeding Farmina lately which is very low carb but I’ve noticed a slow down in activity in my danes. Might not be the food but now I wonder about it.

[pitlove]

You need to make sure that the numbers for calcium and phosphorus you use are from a nutrient or typical analysis. Most companies do not post that on their website and some haven’t a clue what that is even when you contact them.

Ingredients don’t tell you much about a food. They are the vessels for the nutrients your dog needs and even the best looking ingredients can be a poor source of those nutrients. Instead focus on the company. Ask questions like, do they do their own independent research? Do they do AAFCO feeding trials? Who’s making the food? A co-packer or do they have their own facility? Who formulates their diets? Some guy with a marketing degree? Or several people with Ph.Ds in nutrition. It’s easy to make a food that looks good on paper, but that food can be a poor source of nutrition when made by someone who only cares about marketing a trendy food.

[Nadine H]

If you get a chance would you give me your opinion on Farmina? I’ve been feeding the chicken and pomegranate low grain for adult dogs. I’ve asked a ton of questions and always get a reply. I plan on emailing again to ask what the max is for the cal/’phos. They have the min listed at 1.20/.095. We’re on the third bag and I have to say this is the first time that my 13 month dane has had firm stools and they are going a max of twice a day. I had decided to try to get them on canidae thinking the lower protein,fat and calories would be better but after just adding a little to the Farmina Logan had runny poop so the canidae is going back.You may be wondering why I decided to keep looking, first of all I’m really confused on how much of this food to feed. The email from the co told me to feed Logan at 140 only three cups a day, that just seemed like so little food.I’ve been feeding 5 cups a day devided into three meals. One bag of food lasts around 12 days so we’re going through alot of food in a month. If this is the best food for them I’ll pay it but we’re talking over 200.00 a month to feed two danes. My vet had recommended purina pro plan but every time I read the ingredients I think no cant go there. I had emailed purina and they told me Logan .should get nine or ten cups a day. That sounded really excessive. Appreciate your help with this.

[Kim B]

Hi Pitlove,
I had just responded to the email and added an Excel attachment with the numbers from a handful of the Canidae foods.

Under the Sun
Lg Breed Chx Calcium 1.3; Phosphorus 1
Lamb Calcium 2; Phosphorus 1.5
Life Stages
Lg Breed Puppy Calcium 1; Phosphorus .8
Pure (the first three have the following) Calcium 2.2; Phosphorus 1.2
Land
Sea
Elements
Bison Calcium 2.2; Phosphorus 1.47
Pure Foundations
Chx for Puppies Calcium 1.6; Phosphorus 1.2

Thank you so much for all of your time to help us figure out how to keep our family members healthy>

[pitlove]

Hi Nadine-

Farmina looks like a fairly good company. I see they are dedicated to research and have a staff of qualified people formulating their diets. Especially if it agrees with your pup, I would continue to use it. They do also make a chicken and pomegranite in a large breed puppy formula, that might be more appropriate for him than the adult one.

As far as the feeding guidelines go, it looks to be an extremely high calorie food. This is likely the reason for the low seeming feeding guidelines. If you do decide to up his food intake make sure to check that hes not gaining a lot of weight. It is best to use a low energy density food for large breed puppies to help with weight gain, but if you have done fine thus far in keeping him lean I’m sure he will be ok.

Purina Pro Plan is what I use for all my pets and they do best on it. There is no ingredient in Pro Plan that concerns me in the slightest. The reason the feeding guidelines are so different is because of the kcals/cup. If you fed him the Pro Plan Sport 30/20 which is 475 kcals/cup he would eat about 4cups a day if fed as an “inactive” dog. It would be a little higher if fed as a “typically” active dog.

[pitlove]

Hi Kim-

It looks like they gave you the values from the guaranteed analysis, not the typical analysis. These numbers are not helpful as they are minimums.

One thing I can say though, is that a lot of them are already high just on the minimums.

[Nadine H]

I did a lot of reading today and decided to get a bag of Purina pro plan focus large breed puppy. I have spent so much trying to find the perfect food and I’m really starting to wonder what I’m doing. The Farmina is good but is it that good that I need to pay over 200 a month.
I’m just not sure. My vet recommended the purina, he has danes and thats what he feeds. I read hundreds of reviews today from people that are having very good results. We’ll give it a try, I still have two bags of the Farmina so it’ll be a very slow transition and fingers double crossed that it works out. Thanks for your help pitlove!

[Jennifer]

Nadine, I feed my three Danes – ages 11 mos, 2 yrs and 13 yrs – Farmina and I couldn’t be happier with it. They are better than a fairly good company, they have an exceptional reputation. I started my pup on the puppy maxi formula and have now transitioned him to the adult grain-free maxi formula. It is expensive, but I’m willing to pay more for the higher quality ingredients. I figure if I’m not willing to eat by-products, why would I feed them to my dogs. At the end of the day, we all have to find the best food for our pups, so I hope you find one that works for you. Good luck.

[Nadine H]

Thanks Jennifier, I haven’ found many that use Farmina. I went with the adult because it was a little lower fat and protein, puppy has 35 min protein and 20 fat, Adult had 30 protein and 18 fat. I think the calories are about the same. Can you tell me how much you feed your 11 month old? I’ve been feeding my 13 month old who is close to 140 five cups a day, same for the almost eight month old. I was going to give it up after we go through the last two bags but after reading your comments I wonder if I should. I ordered from the company but both bags only had one month to expiration so PerFlow seems to be a better option.

[pitlove]

Hi Jennifer-

You likely eat by products all the time and just don’t know it. Organs meats are very good for dogs, which is what the by products are that are found in Pro Plan.

@ Nadine-

Glad you are taking your vets advice. We have had better results with Pro Plan for all my animals than with any of the so called better foods. Just make sure to transition him from Farmina so as to avoid stomach issues.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by pitlove.

[Evan G]

Thank you so much for this post!
We are the proud parents of a 3mo old Weimaraner puppy. When we got him, he was being fed blue buffalo wilderness large breed. After talking with our vet, it seems he feels the same way that a lot do, too much protein. While reading this forum it seems that may not be completely accurate. His explanation was too much protein would make him grow faster than his joints and bones could keep up.

In an effort to help him with his growth we have gotten him into swimming, to be a low impact exercise on his joints.

Back to the food though, with our vets advice in mind, we started him on Horizon Pulsar which is salmon based, and much lower protein, (28%)

I really want to find another option that will be a better fit for him. I’m looking for some advice. I tried looking at the 5star options, but they all seem to be very high protein.

Any suggestion for some good quality food within our budget of about 100$ a bag would be greatly appreciated.

[Nadine H]

I stay away from any fish based product because both of my pups have had a UTI with struvite crystals. Fish is high in purine, also beef. But that isnt what you’re asking, first of all it’s been proven that protein is not an issue but overfeeding is. Actually the Horizon Pulsar is a really good food, If he’s doing well on it I would keep him on it.So many use a salmon based product and love it.
Easy for me to say when I’m all over the place trying to figure out whats best for my danes, lol. My 13 month has loose stools from any grainfree, my younger girl could eat rocks and her poop would be ok. One of my goals has been to find a food that creates firm stools for my 13 month old guy because scraping poo out of the grass isn’t something I enjoy.
I’m still on the fence regarding the Purina ProPlan and the Farmina. Every site you go to that are into holistic type foods rate purina at the bottom and pretty much say it’s the worst food you can feed but there are hundreds and hundreds of people that have good results with it.
I’m adding a little to the Framina when I feed so we’ll see how it goes.

[Evan G]

Thanks for the reply Nadine,

I am heading to the vet on Wednesday to get Jackson his 3rd round of Parvo Shots so I just want to be a little more educated for my conversation with the vet.

I’m not set on anything yet, he seems to be doing good with the Horizon, fish smell is a little strong, just want to make sure I shouldn’t be putting him on something specifically for bones and joints, as his breed tends to have problems with that.

As far as his stools, ive got to have a convo with the vet about that too, he seems to fluctuate between firm and loose. Morning will be firm, then during the day loose, then night firm again. But it seemed to start even before the diet change.

[Kim B]

Hi Pitlove,
Sorry, I must have asked him the wrong question.
How do I ask for the information needed to run through the calculator?

[Nadine H]

Hi Evan,
My 13 month dane can’t tolerate grain free at all, very loose stool, With a dane who can have joint issues when older it really isn’t a concern as far as food when a puppy. The calcium phos levels are very important though.You want a nice steady slow growth and staying slim Don’t know anything about weimaraners. I do know that most vets say no to Blue Buffalo so glad you don’t feed that food.

[pitlove]

Hi Kim-

You probably did ask the right question but a lot of companies do not know what a nutrient analysis is sadly. Email back and say you require the values found on the nutrient or typical analysis and that what they have given you is taken straight from the guaranteed analysis which is not useful.

[pitlove]

Hi Nadine-

Regarding your last statement about using Pro Plan, the only reason it’s “rated” low is because the people rating the food believe that the ingredients are of poor quality. The quality of each ingredient can not be known simply by looking at a list of ingredients on a bag. A food that reads “beef, beef meal, whole brown rice….. ” may look more appealing, but what cuts off beef are used? What’s the amino acid profile? Are the cuts off beef mostly fat with little to no muscle meat? Are the meats 4 D? We don’t know.

[Nadine H]

Very true pitlove, hadn’t thought of that. Trying to research has created more confusion . My vet knows how obsessive I’ve been about finding the perfect kibble. He told me to go with a company that does the research etc. So many small companies are popping up and they usually don’t have the funds to do feeding trials etc. Then you look at the big companies and some regard them as totally evil and feeding the food they produce is the worst possible thing you can do. Then the no grain got popular and I really feel there is a lot of hype regarding grain free, They have to include starch to form the kibble and many include pea fiber. Then look at the raw feeders, how many know exactly what nutrients are needed and are they feeding a balanced diet? Used to be so easy and then I started reading, 🙂

[pitlove]

I read your post and think back to when I felt just like you did. I felt I was doing such great research by reading forums like this, blogs, etc which were mostly just opinions. It wasn’t until I began reading clinical study papers, research papers and literature written by actual boarded veterinary nutritionists that I began to feel I could make appropriate decisions for my pets about their food. I’m far less stressed about it now.

Yes grain free is very trendy, so is raw. The idea that one product is superior to another product because it is “free” of the ingredients the other product contains is a great marketing tool. Why do you think Blue Buffalo is so successful? A negative connotation begins to become associated with all of the ingredients that the “free of everything” foods do not include…because they must be bad. Right? So now, we have a population of well meaning folks trained to believe that corn, wheat, soy, potatos, by-products, gluten, etc is bad and even dangerous for dogs without any real science to back it up. And this is echoed throughout the internet and as well all know, they can’t put it on the internet if it’s not true!!

Visit petdiets.com and go to their “Ask the Nutritionist” section and read through some of the questions and answers and heck feel free to ask your own questions. The site is run by Dr. Rebecca Remillard, ACVN boarded veterinary nutritionst and her staff of nutritionists. These are the people who you want to be getting your information from.

[anonymous]

This is a good site: https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/choosing-the-right-diet-for-your-pet/

and, of course 🙂 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/category/nutrition/

I have found both sites helpful. Zignature kibble (as a base) is my current favorite.
But, I have no clue if it is appropriate for large breeds, it says “all life stages”.

[Kim B]

Hi Pitlove,
I called and talked to the guy at Canidae again on the numbers that he gave me. He is confused and says that the numbers he provided are those that match their lab tested results for analysis on specific batches of food. He said the only other numbers that they would have are the minimum and maximum per the AAPCO requirements.

Please let me know what would one of these numbers would look like that you would be expecting. So I can better discuss this with him and get what we are needing.

[Nadine H]

anon191 thanks for those links. pitlove petdiets.com is just awesome, A great site and just what I needed. I read to page 16and will read more later,( there’s over a hundred pages of people asking questions.) I did ask a question so anxious to get the answer. Everyone needs to read the petdiet info. Thank you so much, I finally see the fog lifting regarding what do I feed.

[InkedMarie]

Pitlove: your post from this morning about Pro Plan & it’s ingredients….regarding any dog food, how does anyone know what cuts of meat, amino acid profile, etc?

[pitlove]

Regarding the cuts of meat, I’ve noticed more so with commercial raw diets that some are excessively high in fat. Either the protein and fat are the same value or in a couple cases I’ve seen the fat exceed the protein. What that says to me is fattier cuts of meat may be being used to cut cost.

Regarding amino acid profile. The digestibility of the diet will tell you if the amino acids are being metabolized correctly. Larger companies, Purina included record data on digestibility during feeding trials and can often tell you the overall digestibility on each ingredient. For example Hills reports their corn as being 99% digestible overall.

[pitlove]

Hi Kim

If he can give you Max that will work

[Nadine H]

When I was on petdiets.com I asked about corn gluten and I was told that it’s used to provide essential sulfur containing amino acids which are lacking in animal meats. Everyone pretty much thinks that it’s just a cheap filler so it looks like there is a purpose with using it.

[Kim B]

Hi Pitlove,

As I understood from him yesterday, if I ask him for the Max, he is going to give me the AAPCO max number. How do I phrase it so he knows which ‘max’ I need? 🙂

He did tell me that he would be more than happy to talk to you directly if that would help eliminate some of the confusion. I know you are busy enough with everything so I am happy to continue being the middle man, but if you prefer, the number is 800-398-1600 and their hours are M-F 9am- 4pm PST.

[pitlove]

Kim, I should actually have some time today to call them. I will post again after I’ve spoken with them.

[pitlove]

@Kim-

I just got off the phone with Canidae. There is only one formula they make appropriate for large breed puppies. It is:

Life Stages Large Breed

Calcium = 3.3 g per 1000 kcal
Ca to P ratio = 1.3 to 1

He gave me dry matter values for the Pure Foundations and Under the Sun Puppy, but the ca/calorie ratios are off the charts. I would not use them.

[Nadine H]

So today I decide to go to the Purina website. They have a thing you can fill out so they tell you which food is best. I’ll be darn if it didn’t come up Pro Plan Giant Breed Adult. Now I’m somewhat conflicted, do I feed the large breed puppy of the giant breed adult that has a a little lower protein, fat and calories. Ingredients look almost identical. They have online chat that is really worthless, the person I got couldn’t answer my question, I was asking about the large breed adult when a dane is still growing until at least 18 months or longer. I kept getting the message that they would be back with me shortly and after more then ten minutes I gave it up. So then I called the 800 number and i was told large breed puppy until 18/24 months for a great dane, As usual I’m overthinking this but really thought a co as big as Purina could do better then different people giving me different answers for the same question.

[Nadine H]

Sorry the venting in my last post. There seems to be a grey area with danes on when to go to adult food. So that pretty much explains why I get different answers on that subject.

[pitlove]

Yes there is a grey area with very large dogs like that. I would continue puppy food until 18 months at min, but many continue till 24 months.

[Nadine H]

Thanks pitlove. I’ve decided to kep them on it until 24 months. I can’t believe how good their poop is looking. I’ve been fighting loose poo for months and months, trying different foods. I still cringe a little when I read the pro plan ingredients but I’m trying to get past that. 😉

[pitlove]

Very glad your dog is doing well on Pro Plan. I understand that many people feel the ingredients are poor quality because that is what they are told. I think once you see the overall Improvement in his health you will feel differently I know I did.

[Margaret G]

Hi Nadine and Pitlove,
I have Keeva on PurinaProplan large breed now too. Her poop is perfect and she loves it. I asked another friend with Irish Wolfhounds had also recommended Purina so despite some of my concerns, I too am planning on keeping her on Purina. Thanks for all the info.

[pitlove]

Margaret, thats great news. Glad you found something that is working. I used to have concerns about using Pro Plan and was a bit embarrassed for a while to admit I was using a Purina product, but after seeing how much healthier my animals have been (both dogs and my cat eat Pro Plan), I have no concerns about Purina.

[InkedMarie]

Pit: have you tried any of the pro Plan grainfrees? I didnt know there was a gf pro plan!

[Nadine H]

Have to say it’s a weight lifted off, I’ve been so worried about the food issue. I’m so happy to find a food that they like, they have more energy compared to some of the other kibbles we’ve tried. Thanks so much pitlove you’ve been a great help.
Margaret so glad that it’s working for Keeva. My vet recommended this food and also the trainer we had for awhile.

[pitlove]

Marie-

No, I have not. I can’t because of Bentley and his intolerance to peas. They do look very good though and for those that worry about ingredients, have a nice looking ingredient list. They got rid of their Naturals line and incorporated a grain free variety into each of their original platforms. I think that was a really good idea. I think these GF foods of theirs will be more successful than the original naturals line.

[InkedMarie]

Thanks, Pit. I didn’t realize how many Pro Plans there are!

[Tyla M]

Okay @Pitlove and anyone else that has success not going grain free. I had been feeding my pup Fromms Large breed puppy food and her poop was great but I was wondering if she was itching and biting from chicken or something in it. I switched to zignature…her poop has been green and soft for almost the entire back so it’s time to look yet again for a new food! I’m starting to think I’ll have more options as far as with low calcium levels if I don’t just look at grain free foods. I’ve done research and have heard both sides. I know you’re a big promoter of not grain free due to your pups intolerance of peas and success not going with GF. Please convince me with reasons why so I can start looking for the best food for my pup that includes nonGF!:)

[pitlove]

Hi again Tyla-

One thing I want to say it’s that I’m not against grain free foods or anything, I just simply don’t hold them on a pedestal the way others do and I also don’t believe that dogs “can’t” digest or have no need for grains because their anatomy and physiology tells us differently.

Each ingredient in dog food is a mere vessel for the more important nutrients. Each nutrient has its own % of digestibility and then all the ingredients together must form a cohesive food that digests well and can be metabolized by the body. The body doesn’t care if it’s nutrients comes from peas, rice, corn or potato so long as it can use the nutrients provided to it.

It sounds like you want to move away from grain free but are nervous like I was because all you hear in media is how bad grains are for dogs. I’ll say, marketing wise grain free really has been successful. But to me the implication that grain free is superior is just that, a clever marketing tactic. There is no science or even logic behind that.

[Nadine H]

When I used a food with very low grain, didn’t go totally gf. MY danes had no energy at all, they just slept a lot. When I put them on a food with grain again the energy level went right up. They’re 14months and 8 months so they aren’t old enough to just be laying around. Th change was almost immediate. gf is the newest tactic from the dog food companies to sell and raise the price.

[Kim B]

Thank you so much @pitlove. I am struggling through whip worm currently. I thought it was the food causing the problem but instead one of the dogs had been diagnosed for this but not treated. I have purchased the Canidae Large Breed All Life Stages. As soon as we are off of the chicken and rice and medication, I will give it a try and let you know my results. Thank you so much for your dedication to this running conversation!

[M N]

I will first admit that I have not read this entire thread. I have however read large portions of it, as well as many other articles on this topic.

I currently have a 1.5 year old German Wirehaired Pointer. I have had him on Victor Nutra Pro for about 4 months now (switched from TOTW) and he has been doing very well on it. I currently have no complaints whatsoever (well, I would be even happier if it was a bit cheaper, but I don’t think that counts).

I am getting another puppy shortly. Ideally, I would like to feed both dogs the same food. Any opinions on Nutra Pro for a large breed puppy?

3.5g Ca/kCal, 1.2:1 Ca:P

But, at 38%, protein is considerably higher than other large breed puppy foods…

Protein 38.53 %
Fat 20.81 %
Fiber 3.17 %
Carbohydrates
“Calculated” 22.6 %
Moisture 7.95 %
Ash 8.03 %
Calcium 1.38 %
Phosphorus 1.16 %
Cal/Phos Ratio 1.2 Ratio:1
Magnesium 0.14 %
Potassium 0.624 %
Sodium 0.33 %
Zinc 198 mg/kg
Iron 325 mg/kg
Copper 17 mg/kg
Cobalt 0.2 mg/kg
Iodine 2.2 mg/kg
Manganese 44 mg/kg
Selenium 0.42 mg/kg
Vitamin A 13780 IU/kg
Vitamin D3 1145 IU/kg
Vitamin E 180 IU/kg
Vitamin B12 0.09 mg/kg
Riboflavin 6.8 mg/kg
D-Pantothenic
Acid 22 mg/kg
Niacin 75 mg/kg
Folic Acid 1.27 mg/kg
Pyridoxine B6 4.10 mg/kg
Thiamine 10.15 mg/kg
Biotin B7 0.23 mg/kg
Ascorbic Acid 47 mg/kg
Choline 2100 mg/kg
Taurine 1400 mg/kg
Omega 3 0.45 %
Omega 6 2.6 %
DHA 0.16 %
L-Carnitine 60 mg/kg
Calories On Bag 3909 kcal/kg
Calories per Cup on Bag 475 kcal/cup

https://victorpetfood.com/product-items/nutra-pro/?portfolioCats=164%2C165%2C135%2C134%2C133%2C153%2C159%2C160

[Nadine H]

When you say Large breed puppy what breed is it? I used Victor for awhile and I think they have a good food. I had to switch because something changed in their formula and Logan had problems with it. If you’re talking about A dane puppy the beef and brown rice is a good option. Less calories and fat. You want slow growth and high fat and high calorie probably wouldn’t be my choice.

[M N]

I guess I should have specified. The new puppy will also be another German Wirehaired Pointer. Mature weight is likely to be 55-65lbs, although an 80lb GWP is not unheard of, that kind of size is unlikely in this litter.

[Author]

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