[mommyvar]

Hello HDM. I have an 11 week old St. Bernard. I have been researching food since I brought him home at 8 weeks. He is still on the food that the breeder had him on, Royal Canin. I want to change foods, and I was told Orijen LBP was one of the best out there, but it is not on your list. What was the problem with this food? If I should not feed Orijen LBP, what would the best choice be? Would Nature’s Variety Instinct be okay? I was hoping for a food made in Canada. My puppy is also taking two supplements NuVet Plus, and Arthri-Soothe Gold. Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks.

[poodlemom]

I am so appreciative that you are taking the time to help. I am going to go and check out the LBP foods now.

[Hershy]

I also love this thread!
But I’m glad I’m not the only person here who remains a little (or a lot) confused. LOL!
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, AND THANK YOU, AGAIN, HOUND DOG MOM, FOR THE GREAT LIST!!!

What a lot of time you spent for us all compiling this vital information…I spent a lot of time reading the back of bags in Southern Ag and others, trying to figure out my choice for Crystal, my 13 week old (precious) labrador pup, and still don’t have a choice. But now with the list, at least I can decide from those. I really do appreciate it!
I like Chewy.com as well, if they carry the food…or Petflow, depending on which carries the food I decide on…pretty certain it won’t be local. Victor Pro All Life Stages for my big dogs is local.
Did I say, “I love this thread!”…I have learned so much. And to think of the foods I fed before I thought I knew what I was doing… I’m so glad I know better now. I love my sweet Charlotte, Jake, Bella, Jazz, and little Crystal!! They are all such good kids!
I wish they would teach nutrition in Veterinary school. Seems all the vets think Science Diet is a healthy food. I just wonder why something so basic is missing??
Thanks, again, HDM, and all !!
Londa

[theBCnut]

They are right on the border sizewise, so to be safe I would treat them like a large breed, so you should read the thread on large and giant breed puppy nutrition, because some companies REALLY screwed up their LBP food and it shouldn’t be used. That thread has a great list of appropriate foods.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi gsdmommy89 –

Good question. If you read the criteria at the beginning of the list you’ll notice that I’ve included all appropriate foods that are rated at least 4 stars. The two Victor formulas you mentioned are rated 4 stars. I personally wouldn’t feed them to my dogs due to the low protein content. I’d also prefer to see someone feed a higher protein food to their pup. However, if I were to have only included 5 star foods on the list (the only foods that would have protein levels high enough for my preferences) there wouldn’t have been enough options and it could also be prohibitive for those on a budget. The 4 star foods listed with lower protein levels are by no means bad foods, I would just prefer more protein.

I prefer the grain-free Earthborn formulas over the grain-inclusive. The puppy Vantage is not appropriate for large breed puppies. I was told the actual calcium level for the Puppy Vantage formula is around 1.56%. I did email the company last year about the grain-free formulas and was told the actual levels are generally close to the minimum – I have re-emailed the company to verify the information I received last year but have not yet received a response.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[poodlemom]

Our poodle is on digestive enzymes and metroniazdole. He is still having diarrhea. Does a standard poodle need to be on Large Breed Puppy Food?

[pugmomsandy]

Amicus, Nutrisource Small/Medium Breed Puppy, Nutrisource Grain Free Lamb, Nature’s Logic, Nutrisca and Epigen, Wellness Small Breed and Wellness Core Small Breed are all tiny-small kibbles. And when on a better food, he should eat less than he is now on his current food so a medium size bag should last you some time. I wouldn’t get a large bag because it would be left open for too long a time. And you don’t have to feed just one brand. Pick a couple that he likes and does well on. For a chew bone, you can give him a beef rib bone or a pork rib bone. Simply Nourish has small kibble too. I pug-sat one that was eating the small breed formula.

[Hershy]

I also love this thread!
But I’m glad I’m not the only person here who remains a little (or a lot) confused. LOL!
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, AND THANK YOU, AGAIN, HOUND DOG MOM, FOR THE GREAT LIST!!!

What a lot of time you spent for us all compiling this vital information…I spent a lot of time reading the back of bags in Southern Ag and others, trying to figure out my choice for Crystal, my 13 week old (precious) labrador pup, and still don’t have a choice. But now with the list, at least I can decide from those. I really do appreciate it!
I like Chewy.com as well, if they carry the food…or Petflow, depending on which carries the food I decide on…pretty certain it won’t be local. Victor Pro All Life Stages for my big dogs is local.
Did I say, “I love this thread!”…I have learned so much. And to think of the foods I fed before I thought I knew what I was doing… I’m so glad I know better now. I love my sweet Charlotte, Jake, Bella, Jazz, and little Crystal!! They are all such good kids!
Thanks, again, HDM, and all !!
Londa

[poodlemom]

I also forgot to mention Wellness Simple Line Dry Food (Turkey & Potato) is also one I am considering, along with Orijen, Merrick Duck & Sweet Potato.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi CharlieBrown –

It’s great that you’re looking to switch your pup to a better food 🙂

Victor is budget friendly and has very small kibble. Fromm Classics are reasonably priced – I’ve never used the classics but I know their 4 Star and Gold lines both have small kibbles so I’d assume the classics would as well. NutriSource has a small/medium breed puppy formula that is small and pretty cheap. That’s all I can recall off the top of my head for small kibble and reasonable price. I’m sure Sandy will know some more.

For canned food I’d recommend checking out either Pure Balance (available at Walmart), 4Health (available at Tractor Supply) or Kirkland Cuts & Gravy (available at Costco) – all are $1 or less for a large can and rate 4 stars or higher.

If you want to give him something healthy to chew on that’s also cheap, I’d recommend picking up some raw bones from the butcher. Bully sticks, pig ears and dried tracheas (from quality sources) are healthy chews too but they can be pricey.

[Hound Dog Mom]

If there’s a significant difference in kcal. per cup then yes, you should adjust the portion sizes accordingly. The easiest way to do this would be to figure out how many kcal. your dog is currently eating and when you switch to a new food divide the number of kcal. your dog eats to maintain optimum body condition by the kcal. per cup in the new food to determine how many cups of the new food you need to feed. I’d only do this if the differences are big. So if you’re feeding a food that has, say, 410 kcal. per cup and switch to a food with 425 kcal. per cup the difference is so small that you shouldn’t need to adjust the portions. On the other hand, if you’re feeding a food with 380 kcal. per cup and switch to a food with 480 kcal. per cup, some adjustments will need to be made.

[Sully’sMom]

Looking back a few responses ago, I think what I’m still left wondering about, when I was mentioning the varying protein levels and kcals is: every time you rotate to a new food, do you need to adjust the quantity you feed? This should be my last remaining confusion! (I had my previous dog 16 years and we never rotated)

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Sully’s Mom –

42% protein is definitely not too high – my girls’ meals are generally in the 45% – 55% protein range. There’s really no risk of feeding “too much protein” to a healthy dog and this issue definitely would not occur with a kibble – most kibbles are much lower in protein than a natural raw diets due to the nature of kibble (a starch source is required for processing). When excess protein is consumed beyond what the dog’s body utilizes, the excess amino acids are catabolized into waste nitrogen, converted to urea in the liver and kidneys and excreted in the urine. This is a passive process that does not cause any harm or additional stress to the dog. I personally prefer kibbles with at least 30% protein. Victor Ultra Pro looks like an excellent food and I’ve heard great things about it.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi sullysmom –

You sure have some great foods you’re considering for your rotation! 🙂

There’s really no reason to have everything so planned though – just buy whatever 4 or 5 star food looks interesting. You can get a new food after each bag if you want (that’s what I used to do). I also wouldn’t worry too much about differences in protein and fat levels – if your dog has a strong gut and is accustomed to variety it shouldn’t cause any issues.

[InkedMarie]

Big three: I use pet flow, doggie food, wag, Chewys and pet food direct, all at dot com.

[Sully’sMom]

Hi Bigthree,

I’m only going to address the part where you said you have a real hard time getting your brand. If you’ve never tried getting your dog food on line, it’s great! Specifically, I love to recommend http://www.chewy.com; they give you an initial discount of 15% off if you set up an automatic shipment plan (which you can always adjust – they give you advance notice of shipping), shipping is free, and for many brands they do a frequent bag buyer plan! And excellent customer service. Good prices too.

Sully’s Mom

[bigthree]

To all,
Need a little advise. I recently got dog number 3 a female chocolate lab who’s name is Athena and just about 5 months old. I have her on Nutro Ultra Holistic food for large breed puppies which I have no problem with. I was wondering if there was something better out there or something similar since I have a real hard time getting this brand. My other two are a Yellow lab and Saint Bernard/Great Perenees mix and have them both on a homade food diet, yes I like my dogs big and lovable. The vet said with the first year I should have Athena on something that is well balanced and will be kind to her digestive system. She told me Science Diet was the best balance meal for her but when I read what was in it (By-Product) and did some research I was sickened. So my question is is Nutra Ultra Holistic Large Breed Puppy Food the best out there or is there something better?

Sincerely
bigthree

[Sully’sMom]

I didn’t even know there was a dog food calculator! Thanks 🙂

[InkedMarie]

Patty: the important thing I need to know is, do you eat the meal? LOL!

I have no problem with people lending their names to do food but come on, consumers, just because they’re famous (Ellen, Rachel, Dick van Patten, Paul Newman) doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing with dog food.

SullysMom: I don’t even know about the protein thing, I try to get above 30% but sometimes I have a food that isn’t. As far as caloric needs, find out how many calories in a cup of each food you’re going to feed, go to the DFA dog food calculator page (hopefully it won’t take you as long to figure it out as it did me) and figure out how much food you need for each different one. Make up a list, tape it inside your cupboard near to where you get your dogs meals together.

[theBCnut]

Hi Sully’s Mom

I like Nature’s Variety Instinct, but I would skip the Raw Boost. There aren’t enough of the raw pieces to matter, it’s just marketing.

I wouldn’t feed as low a protein as your Fromm’s, but for rotational purposes, no, you don’t have to match protein%, fat%, or calories. I try to keep in the same range just so I don’t have to adjust how much I feed by very much. And some dogs are sensitive to changes in fat level, but not usually rotational feeders, unless they have pancreas problems.

You don’t need to limit yourself to 3 choices. I love finding a new food that I can add to my rotation. Keep notes on how they do on what or pretty soon you will be confused about whether it was X or Y that your dog did this or that while eating it.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by theBCnut.

[theBCnut]

I’m not Marie, but usually grain free foods have less filler ingredients so they are higher calorie so you need to feed less. Grain free has started to become a fad, so some companies are starting to make grain free foods that are just as bad as some of the mediocre grain inclusive foods, so don’t be fooled.

[wallyworld]

Wile reviewing Hound Dog Mom’s excellent list of large breed dog and puppy foods, (/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/page/15/#post-21607) I realized one of the foods I was leaning towards did not list DHA as an ingredient (Castor & Pollux Organix Puppy). Oh no, what I am I to do? So I did some research and came across this article from Dr. Karen Becker on Krill oil http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/krill-oil-for-pets.aspx. Yes, DHA is very important to have in a dog food but the stability and quality of omega 3’s/DHA is commercial foods is usually compromised during processing. So I guess I should supplement with krill oil. Besides the Mercola brand, does anyone else have a brand they like? Dr. Becker doesn’t advise using fish oil if you want the best form of omegas.

[pugmomsandy]

I don’t know what a Vizsla is but if it’s a large or giant breed, you might want to check out the “Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition” thread. It has the list of foods for the large breed puppies.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by pugmomsandy.

[Swissy Mix]

Thank you, Hound Dog Mom, for taking the time to update the list. It’s much appreciated! After numerous tries on various dog foods, our puppy seems to be happy and thriving (and not eating his own poop!) on Zignature. Zignature’s salmon one is on your list, but not the duck, turkey or lamb. All four list a min. of 1.0% calcium. When I saw your updated list, I was surprised to see only the salmon on your list still. We would like to rotate among the various Zignature products so our puppy could get some meat variety. Were the calcium % max different on the salmon than on the other three? Just curious why the other three didn’t make the list is all. Thanks again!

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi glavoie –

I personally recommend keeping dogs on either a “growth”/”all life stages” food for life. There are a few quality foods labeled for “maintenance” (likely due to simply to the company’s marketing preferences), but the best foods are generally going to be growth/all life stages formulas. Maintenance formulas tend to be too low and protein and fat and there’s no reason the quality of a dog’s food needs to be reduced just because they end the growth phase. Once your pup is around 8 – 10 months or so you can, however, stop monitoring calcium levels so closely – at this age pups are through their most rapid phase of growth and gain the ability to regulate calcium absorption.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Please Pass the Calgon –

Unfortunately, many pet store employees aren’t very well versed in nutrition – especially those that work at the big box stores such as Petsmart and Petco. I know it’s all a lot to take in and and can be a little overwhelming. If you’re a new large breed puppy owner I think the articles I posted links to at the beginning of this thread would be a great place to start researching. As far as calcium – you want to control calcium levels until the puppy is at least 8 months old. High protein is preferable, I personally prefer foods to contain at least 30% protein. I would say that raw would be the best option, followed by canned or dehydrated and then kibble. Feel free to ask any questions if they come up – either here in the forums or on the review section of the site. There are many knowledgeable posters here just waiting to help.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[glavoie]

Hi Hound Dog Mom, Thanks for all your info. I have started my 6 month old Bernese Mountain dog puppy on Wellness Core Puppy food as recommended off your list for large breed pups. Just one more question, How long do you suggest he stay on puppy food? He’s about 60 pounds right now.
Thanks
Grace

[Please Pass the Calgon]

Thanks HDM!

I have to say all this research is making my head spin…I just want a good, and also reasonably priced, food that will keep my Great Dane pup healthy, happy and growing well. It seems every article I read or site I research says something different is imperative. We have Costco, Tractor Supply, Petsmart, Petco available nearby but none of the employees I’ve talked to seem that informed. Calcium good, calcium bad, protein high, protein low, grain based, grain free, raw….aaack!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Please Pass the Calgon.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Everyone –

I’ve completed the new and improved list of foods. I just wanted to say that the responses from many of the companies’ customer service teams were disappointing – this is why everything took longer than expected. I was very surprised by the number of companies that didn’t respond to my email inquiries and/or didn’t answer their phone during business hours. I did attempt to contact every company that has a growth or all life stages formula rated four stars or higher but many of the attempts were unsuccessful. I sent the emails out about two weeks ago now which should have provided ample opportunity for companies to respond.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[wiscnorthwind]

A number of years ago I bought a puppy from a large show kennel that had some undetermined GI issues. The pup was put on multiple doses of antibiotics by his breeder, and later by my vets, which eventually caused him to develop SIBO (small intestinal bacteria overgrowth) and “leaky gut syndrome”. I spent 5 years trying to resolve his GI issues…including researching probiotics that would help re-balance the flora in his gut. After finding negative reports about E. Faecium being opportunistic and potentially pathogenic due to its persistent colonization, as well as being prone to becoming antibiotic resistant I called one pet food company to discuss which strains of E. Faecium they used as a probiotic…I let them know that it was the specific strain I had found the bad reports on. However, I doubt that they made any changes to their product based on my phone call. Bottom line…it is my opinion that there are a lot of lactic acid producing strains of probiotics that are MUCH safer to use than ANY of the E. Faecium strains, so its my personal preference to protect my pets, myself and my grandchildren from exposure to it by avoiding any pet food that contains E. Faecium as a probiotic. As a side note, the reason the manufacturers like it, is because not only does it persist on almost any surface, it resists heat up to 160 degrees…which in my book makes it even more dangerous to my pets and myself.

I’ve changed computers a number of times since doing my initial research, so don’t have links to all of the articles handy, but doing a quick search, here are a few that you might find interesting…

A Microbial Biorealm page on the genus Enterococcus faecium
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Enterococcus_faecium

Enterococcus spp
http://www.vetbook.org/wiki/dog/index.php/Enterococcus_spp

Transmission of opportunistic pathogens in a veterinary teaching hospital.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11506928

Dogs Are a Reservoir of Ampicillin-Resistant Enterococcus faecium Lineages Associated with Human Infections[down-pointing small open triangle]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2675212/

Characterization of Tn1546 in Vancomycin-Resistant Enterococcus faecium Isolated from Canine Urinary Tract Infections: Evidence of Gene Exchange between Human and Animal Enterococci
http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Paper/6754457

Monitoring of antimicrobial resistance in healthy dogs: first report of canine ampicillin-resistant Enterococcus faecium clonal complex 17.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18524501

Resident Cats in Small Animal Veterinary Hospitals Carry Multi-Drug Resistant Enterococci and are Likely Involved in Cross-Contamination of the Hospital Environment
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3282945/

Prevalence, species distribution and antimicrobial resistance of enterococci isolated from dogs and cats in the United States.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19486402

Epidemic and Nonepidemic Multidrug-Resistant Enterococcus faecium
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/9/9/02-0383_article.htm

Multiple-Drug Resistant Enterococci: The Nature of the Problem and an Agenda for the Future
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/4/2/98-0211_article.htm

Please note that many of these articles are not “new” findings, yet the use of E. Faecium as a probiotic on pet food persists. While it may not cause any issues in a healthy animal or person, I do believe it does present a risk that most people are unaware of, especially in those with compromised immune systems. I think its wise to make informed choices, so I hope that you find the above links helpful.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi lemdem –

Glad you found this thread helpful 🙂

Nutro Max LBP and Whole Earth Farms are both too high in calcium for a LBP. I have no idea about the Purina/Pedigree products, I’ve never looked into them as they’re not something I’d ever recommend. I would assume that a “large breed puppy” formula manufactured by Purina would have appropriate calcium levels though, so if someone wanted to feed a cheap brand I’d probably (reluctantly)recommend going with a Purina LBP formula. However, I honestly doubt that anyone considering feeding their pup something such as Beneful or Pedigree would have any concern for proper growth and prevention of developmental orthopedic disease. I wouldn’t ever recommend feeding an adult food to a puppy – an “all life stages” formula is fine, but not a formula labeled for “maintenance” (check the AAFCO statement on the bag because some “adult” foods are actually approved for all life stages” – meaning that they’re essentially a puppy formula). Maintenance foods are generally too low in protein and fat for a puppy (and also – imo – for adult dogs) and can be too low in certain vitamins and minerals for a growing dog. Due to the lower calorie content found in most adult formulas (in comparison to puppy or all life stages formulas), a pup may actually end up consuming more calcium per calorie even if the calcium percentage by weight is lower. Very young puppies could also have difficulty meeting their energy needs on a low calorie adult formula.

[Lemdem]

I’m loving this thread! It’s really informative!

I work at Petco, and I have a lot of pet parents come in when they get a new puppy. Not everyone can afford (or is willing to pay for) these more expensive, quality brands, and I was wondering if you might be able to show me a few formulas in the different price ranges so I can recommend the best food for their budget. I’ve always had small breed dogs, so cost isn’t as much of an issue for me as it is for parents of dogs who will eat 4+ cups a day.

Is Nutro Max Large Breed Puppy a decent food in the $1/lb range? It seems to be the best one i’ve seen in the price range. It’s got a bunch of corn and wheat, but still manages to get a 3.5 on DFA, which is pretty impressive for $30 a bag. Is their LBP formula worth anything?

Any other suggestions? The cheapo brands we carry at my store are Purina( Chef Michaels, Puppy Chow, Beneful, One) & Pedigree, and a small jump up in price, Iams and Nutro Max.

Of those foods, in those two price ranges, which one would be the least harmful for a large breed puppy? The Purina and Pedigree are such garbage, does it even make a difference which one you feed?

Whole Earth Farms is also around the Nutro Max price range, at about $40 a bag. Is the adult formula appropriate for LB puppies?

I’ve read a lot of different things about LBP nutrition. Is it true that if an appropriate LBP formula is not available, then an adult formula is better than a regular puppy food?

I really appreciate all of your time! Your list was really, really helpful.

[DogFoodie]

Hi Please Pass the Calgon,

The 4Health Large Breed that your pup is eating now is a grain inclusive product and Nature’s Domain is grain free; but, personally, I wouldn’t recommend either, primarily for the reason that both are Diamond products. Until your pup makes the transition to his/her new home, I’d probably keep him/her on the 4Health for a least a few weeks to avoid any more digestive upset that comes with the transition to a new home.

One very important thing with a large breed puppy is making certain that there’s an appropriate Calcium level ~ did you take a look at the documents that Hound Dog Mom shared at the very beginning of this thread? She included a list of foods that have Calcium levels appropriate for large breeds as well as some critical information for raising a large breed through puppyhood ~ you’ll want to take a look at the information she shared.

[Please Pass the Calgon]

We’re picking up our new Great Dane pup next weekend and after researching foods I really need to make a decision. She is currently being fed 4health Large Breed, but we’ve also heard really good things about the Costco “Nature’s Domain – Salmon”. Which would you recommend?

Sara

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi jessica –

It is perfectly okay to mix a grain-inclusive food with a grain-free topper and vice versa. As far as portioning meals, a lot of people struggle with this so you’re not alone. My advice is always to closely monitor the dog’s body condition – pup’s should have their body condition checked once or twice a week, adult dogs can have it checked less frequently such as every month or so. There really is no person or feeding chart than can tell you how much to feed your pup – energy requirements vary drastically between dogs based on factors such as size, breed, age, activity level, environment, etc. etc. You can use the feeding recommendations on the bag as a starting point, but I personally have always found them to be way off. My dogs have always required much more than the amount recommended on the bag and I know several individuals who’ve had the opposite experience – their dogs have required much less than what’s recommended on the bag. It’s just like people – there are some that can seemingly eat whatever they want and remain slim, some that so much as think about a cupcake and they gain 10 pounds and others that fall somewhere in between. Feeding charts on the bag are nothing more than a recommendation. What I do personally is feed my dogs based on calories – many people hate this method however I’ve found it to be the most successful. I know how many calories each of my dogs need per day to maintain optimum body condition and I feed them based on calories – not % of body weight, cups of food, etc. This also accounts for differences in caloric density between foods. It’s not time consuming for me because after years of doing it I, for the most part, have the calorie content of every food memorized or can make a very accurate estimate. As for accounting for the canned topper, in general, one large can of food is roughly equal in calories to 1 C. of kibble. So if you feed one can a day, feed once less cup of kibble or if you feed 1/2 can a day feed 1/2 c. less kibble, etc.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi londoncalling –

As Sharfie pointed out feeding as a percent of body weight is a way to determine portion sizes when feeding raw. You wouldn’t want to do that for kibble as kibble is much more calorically dense than raw food (due to low moisture content).

[julez4you]

@Sharfie and others…
Glad to hear your pup is doing much better on raw. I’m a firm believer as well- but with my senior dog 100% raw fed and my lack of desire to make my own, I just can’t afford the expense for a growing Great Dane pup. But I do hope to make the transition some day as I believe it’s what saved my former Dane life when I switched him to raw at 8.

In the meantime- wanted to share some info that might be helpful to there as they transition to new foods and/or have periods of loose stools not as a consequence of something more concerning. My Dane pup was having them as I transitioned him from Purina to a quality holistic food. My friend told me about Honest Kitchens Perfect Form herbal supplement and this stuff is amazing. It’s all natural, and I just add a little in with 2 of his meals each day (along with a probiotic) and now everything is looking good.

My next step is too hopefully transition him from kibble over the THK Love dehydrated raw.

[sharfie]

Jules-
The 4% is from the raw food forum and the % to feed if you are feeding a raw diet. I had to switch my puppy to raw a few days ago. He has had loose poops and after trying different ways to clear it up and consulting with the vet, nothing was working. I switched to raw a few days ago and things are much better.

[Jessica1]

Hi H.D.M,
Thank you so much for all the information, it has really helped me. It’s great to know that rotating grain & non grain is acceptable and won’t cause problems. Thank you also for the information on the teeth and kibble, what you are saying makes perfect sense. I just never thought much to question the vet.
I just took our “little” rescue, Takoda in for his 2nd DHLPP & Bord. and the vet thinks they were wrong about his age and may only be 8 – 9 weeks and is already 16lbs, he is not overweight but he is solid. This leads me to my next two questions. (which I see Londoncalling is asking too) When you use the can food as a topper I don’t want to overfeed him or underfeed, how do I determine the amount to use as the topper and the amount of dry? The package on the Organix for his age & weight reads 2 ¾ – 4 cups (which I think is a big difference) I’m not currently at this point yet as I am still transitioning him over from the Pedigree, he should be on full Organix in the next day or so. (yesterday his stool was soft, today I was at ¾ mix and he got the runs).
If you’re adding a can topper is there a good guideline to use on how much kibble and how much topper. I just don’t want to over or under do it.
Even with the guidelines on the bag, I am not quite sure what would be the correct amount for him, and his size.
He has never gulped his food and sometimes doesn’t seem very interested in it until “he” is ready to eat. When I first gave him the Organix he seemed to love it, and tried to pick out just those pieces, now I’m not sure. Now he seems to only eat it because he is hungry not because he is enjoying it. (But, he never gulped the pedigree either).
The 2nd part of my question; should I only use a grain inclusive topper when using grain inclusive foods? Rotating from grain to non grain I know you said would be okay but I wasn’t sure if actually mixing grain with non grain topper would cause a problem. My main reason for asking, Organix doesn’t have a puppy formula and I’ve heard good things about the Wellness puppy can food, but it’s a non grain, and I am not sure what would be a good “grain” large breed puppy can food.
Thanks again!

[MsDad]

Thanks for the info Hound Dog Mom. Is it just the calcium and phosphorus we need to watch out for or protein as well? I’ve been looking at Nature’s Logic but it has a very high protein content. Everything else looks really good. It just seems like I can’t find a food that has it all….

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi freshley –

If you are referring to Dr. Mike’s lists of best puppy foods – all of the formulas he has listed are appropriate for puppies. The thing is (and this confuses a lot of people, so you aren’t alone) the AAFCO only recognizes two nutrient profiles: “maintenance” (ie “adult”) and “growth” (ie “puppy”). The requirements to meet the “growth” standard are more stringent than the requirements to meet the “maintenance” standard (the formulas much have higher levels of protein, fat, etc.). Personally – I don’t feel “maintenance” formulas are appropriate for any dog – even adults – as they tend to be way to low in protein and fat. If a food conforms to the more stringent “growth” nutrient profile the company can choose to label their food for “growth” or “all life stages.” What the company decides to do really comes down to their marketing strategy. As a general rule, most manufacturers of high quality 5 star foods do not cater to “life stages” – they make a few very high quality foods that exceed the AAFCO’s requirement for “growth” and label them as an “all life stages” formula. The lower quality companies that market heavily (Purina, Hills, Royal Canin, etc.) like to make a wide variety of formulas that cater to all different ages, sizes, breeds, etc. Puppy formulas, senior formulas, large breed formulas, breed specific formulas, weight loss formulas, etc. etc. are just marketing gimmicks. Dogs just need a high quality growth or all life stages formula throughout life.

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[MsDad]

Hi, I’m new to the forum and am a firm believer in raw diets. I will be getting a goldendoodle puppy in October who will ultimately be trained to be my service dog. So obviously I want to give him every advantage possible. So far, the best food I’ve found is Primal Rabbit Formula but I wonder if the calcium content is high enough or just right. Would love to hear any/all opinions.

Eddie

[sharfie]

Hi HDM-
Thank you for all your help. I have one other question. I have access to the commercial frozen raw foods (I work in a small pet food store): Bravo, Primal, Stella and Chewies, etc. But, I noticed there are no calcium levels listed on the bag. Do you know if any of the freeze dries or raw frozen food have the appropriate calcium levels for large breed puppies?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jules –

If you were feeding only canned or raw foods, yes you should watch the calcium level. If you are only using them as a topper to a kibble with appropriate levels of calcium, I wouldn’t worry about it. I am getting together a list of suitable commercially available raw foods, I don’t plan on doing canned foods in the near future though – sorry! What I did with Mabel when she was a pup was to replace about 25% of what my other two adults were eating with raw green tripe which has a low, but balanced, calcium to phosphorus ratio (I make homemade raw). Sounds like we’re on nearly opposite sides of the country – I’m located in northern New York about 15 miles from the Canadian border!

• This reply was modified 12 years, 8 months ago by Hound Dog Mom.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Jessica1 –

The Organix puppy formula is 1.05% calcium and has 2.89 g. calcium per 1,000 kcal. – so yes, it’s a good choice. It would be perfectly fine to use both grain-inclusive and grain-free foods in a rotational feeding program. Many people are under the assumption that dry food is good for dental health – you’re not the only one. For the most part, this is a myth. Some dogs that thoroughly chew their kibble may may derive some benefit in comparison to a soft food however this benefit is minimal and will not be enough to prevent periodontal disease and – in my experience – most dogs don’t thoroughly chew kibble and therefore would receive no benefit. The only food that promotes dental health is a raw meaty bones diet and any dog eating commercial food, be it kibble or canned food, will need their teeth brushed on a regular basis or they will get eventually develop periodontal disease to some degree. Your vet telling you that your dog will have good dental health as long as he eats kibble would be the equivalent of your dentist telling you that you don’t need to brush your teeth as long as you eat crunchy foods – kind of silly, right? About 85% of dogs fed commercial foods over the age of 3 have some degree of periodontal disease, oftentimes it goes unnoticed by owners. Many people think “doggie breath” is normal, but it’s not. A dog’s breath should have no odor. All of the Organix canned foods appear that they’re labeled for adult maintenance, however if you’re only using the canned food as a topper and the bulk of the puppy’s diet is going to be a dry food approved for growth or all life stages this is fine. You could also top the Organix puppy kibble with a canned food labeled for growth from another brand, there’s no reason you can mix different brands of kibble and canned food. I hope that helps!

[londoncalling1996]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply to my questions. It’s really so helpful, I find it all a bit overwhelming. I made the trip to Los Altos today to the pet store with LOTS of good dog food options. I got 7 small sample bags of different kinds of Fromm dry kibble for Lux to try. I also got a can of Trippett, Green beef tripe, duck and salmon. (I haven’t opened it yet though, got to psych myself up for that I think! :-)) And a can each of Ziwipeak venison&fish recipe and Nature’s logic rabbit dinner. After reading your advise, I thought, “well, cost isn’t really an isssue, man, what we paid for this dog!”, but then I got to the pet store and saw the prices! If my 16 year old is going to go to college, Lux might have to eat some kibble! These three cans I got cost 15 bucks and with a berner in the house, we might be eaten out of house and home! I am looking on line at some of the on line sites you suggested. Thanks! I do like to shop local and will, but since it’s about 20 miles to the nearest pet store with good food, I can justify not using the local shop for all of our dog food needs all the time. So, now you have me thinking about wet and raw food, do I also need to worry about the calcium content in those for the first 8 or 10 months of Lux’s life? Maybe you have a list of your favorite canned foods for Large and Giant Breed puppies that have the right amount of calcium? (Fingers crossed!) Where are you located? I’m on the San Francisco peninsula, about 20 miles south of SF. Thank you for everything! Cheers, Jules

[Jessica1]

Hello H.D.M, Thank you so much for all your insight. My puppy is between 9-10 wks and a mix between GSD and Bernese Mountain Dog (they think, he is a rescue). He currently weighs 15lbs, so I know he will be a big boy. He was being feed Pedigree so I wanted to start to transition him right away to a better quality food, for health and developmental reasons. I was getting confused with all the info that is out there but finding you has been great, informative and easy to understand.
I really wanted to do the non grain. But, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to start a non grain food since the costs are high I didn’t want to switch if I couldn’t keep it up. So I put him on Organix Puppy (dry), due to the ingredients the higher standards of organics. Would this be listed on your new list as a good choice?
My second question, you state rotational feeding, would a rotation with non grain and grain inclusive be a good idea? Lastly, I was always told (by my vet) kibble was better for their teeth than canned food, but you state canned food is better for their health, so until now I never gave can food much thought. In the Organix brand I didn’t see a can puppy formula, are their big differences that I should be looking for if I want to start giving him canned? Thank you.

[sharfie]

So, I am a bit confused. Right now I am feeding my puppy NV Turkey and adding Bravo Buffalo Boneless as a topper. If I were to use Bravo Balance or a canned food, which is a complete and balanced raw food, would it raise the calcium to a level that is too high?

Thanks so much for your help.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi londoncalling1996 –

That’s too bad your store didn’t carry any of the foods. 🙁 If you’re not opposed to online ordering there are many sites that sell a wider variety of foods than you could find in a store and they also typically have lower prices – most also offer free shipping with no weight limit when you spend a certain amount of money (usually orders over $49). I’d recommend checking out wag.com, chewy.com, petflow.com and naturalk9supplies.com. Also the new lists should give you many additional options to choose from.

I definitely feel that, if it’s financially feasible, non-dry foods should be fed as a sole diet or at least in addition to kibble. Dry food is actually the worst thing to feed a dog – however to to budget and time constraints it, understandably, comprises the bulk of most dog’s diets. I urge you to check out this article Dr. Marty Goldstein (one of my all time favorite veterinarians) posted on his blog, it ranks the different types of food from best to worst: drmarty.com/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-for-best-health/

If you add wet food you should count account for this in her daily food intake – just monitor her weight and if she’s gaining too much start feeding a little less. One of my all time favorite wet food toppers (especially for large breed puppies) is Tripett. I like Tripett for several reasons: 1) high protein/moderate fat/low carbohydrate (ideal); 2) it has a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio but very low amounts of each, so it can effectively be used to lower the calcium to phosphorus ratio in any food fed to a large breed puppy without the risk of throwing off the balance and 3) dogs go absolutely nuts for it (people hate it – if you feed it you’ll see why – but they love it). The only thing I want to note with Tripett is that it’s not a complete and balanced food (it’s just canned green tripe) so if you do feed it make sure it doesn’t exceed 20% of the meal or you could throw off the nutritional balance. Some other more balanced canned foods that I like that could account for over 20% of the meal are: ZiwiPeak, Addiction, Nature’s Logic, Nature’s Variety Instinct and Merrick. Dr. Mike has a great compilation of high quality canned foods over on the review site as well. If you’re looking for a quality yet budget friendly canned food (canned food can be quite pricey, especially when feeding a large breed puppy) I’d recommend checking out 4Health (available at Tractor Supply, $0.99 per can), Pure Balance (available at Walmart, $1 per can), Kirkland Cuts in Gravy (available at Costco, $0.79 per can), Whole Earth Farms (available at many online retailers about $1.50 per can) – these foods are all 4 – 5 star quality. Some other toppers you could use are dehdyrated foods (i.e. The Honest Kitchen, Grandma Lucy’s, etc.) – these foods are about the same consistency as a stew type canned food when rehydrated, a balanced frozen or freeze-dried commercial raw food (freeze-dried rehydrates to canned food consistency) or fresh toppers such as sardines, eggs, plain yogurt or left over lean meat or steam veggies from your dinner.

Digestive aids aren’t necessary, but many feel they’re beneficial. Many of the regulars here supplement with probiotics and enzymes. I don’t supplement with either because my dogs eat a raw diet (naturally occurring enzymes) and consume raw green tripe (rich in enzymes and probiotics) and kefir (rich in probiotics) on a regular basis. If feeding cooked food only (like kibble and canned) I do feel that enzymes and probiotics can provide benefit.

[londoncalling1996]

Hi Hound Dog Mom, I REALLY appreciate all you research and hard work compiling all the information on what to feed Large and Giant Breed Puppies, in our case, our 11 week old Bernese Mtn Dog. I printed your recommendations and took the list to our local pet and feed store. I was leaning to Fromm because it’s one of the lowest in calcium. The Fromm website listed our local pet and feed store as carrying two of their lines. Not only do they not carry Fromm, they don’t carry any of the foods on your list except Canine Caviar, which you said in a recent post that you are taking off the list. I can see this isn’t going to be so straight forward! I did call a pet store about 20 miles away and they carry Fromm, so I will go tomorrow and pick some up for LUX. Can you please tell me if feeding her just the dry food is good for her? Or should I add some protein? What about the green tripe? What about digestive aids? Should I add of of those to her diet? I do put a little wet food into the end of her kong and freeze it to give her a treat when I put her in her crate at bedtime. Should I count that as food and subtract some kibble in one of her daytime meals? Also, what do you recommend as a wet food to use in the kong and/or as a topper occasionally on her kibble? I want to do the best I can for her in her life and especially in the coming formative months! Thanks so much!!!! Cheers, Jules