Absolutely!! I always give it and take it with food, because it’s pretty strong stuff. Just google canigivemydog dot com or natural-dog-remedy dot com to learn more.
Patty, yes, the addition of fiber at this point would probably only serve to slow transit time down, to absorb water, retain toxins longer, and then the body would probably have to work even harder, and lose even more water in it’s attempts to flush it out. Just my thoughts.
I don’t have any experience with oil of oregano. Is it safe for dogs?
*to late to edit, but I meant to say go with plain cooked enriched white rice. The way I said it sounds like I meant- look for unenriched.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by
losul.
When I got cyclospora, they specifically said to let the diarrhea run its course because it was the body’s attempt to flush the stuff out. I ate garlic and oil of oregano like they were going out of style for 3 or 4 days, then continued the oil of oregano for a week.
Actually, the diarrhea can be a defense mechanism to attempt to flush out the toxins. If it were me, for now, I would remove all extra forms of fiber, including pumpkin, and anything else that could slow the transit time through the digestive tract, so the toxins aren’t retained any longer than necessary.
Probably, amongst other things, the outside lab is testing for the various toxins that some clostridium species create under certain conditions.
For now, and temporarily, I would just go with lightly cooked beef, chicken, and plain white rice (most white rice sold in the U.S. is enriched with vitamins). I wouldn’t use any whole grains or anything else hard to digest.
kms-
Here is my two cents. I agree with Losul regarding the antibiotics. I personally think this might have started because of the rounds of antibiotics he had initially. Every time our rottie has had chemo and been on antibiotics afterwards it takes forever for his stool to return to normal. We give him double doeses of probiotics with every meal while on antibiotics and for weeks afterwards before backing it down again. It takes a long time for their gut to get back to normal after everything has been killed off. I don’t think he truly has colitis. I think his system has never been able to get back to normal. I would go back to doing the double doses of probiotics.
Regarding his food, I remember you fed him a bland diet of chicken and rice once for awhile, right? Did his stool get any better with that? I was told that barley has a good amount of fiber and can be better than rice. I feed our rottie chicken and overcooked oatmeal and it works for him. Homecooked food might be easier on his system than kibble right now.
I feel for you. Stay strong. I’ll be keeping Augie in my thoughts. š
C. perf is common. And I agree, I wouldn’t go raw until he is healthy.
In humans, Clostridium is also known as c.diff, and is quite serious. As someone who has spent a lot of time in the human healthcare environment, and infection control, and have had family members with this infection, you need to find out what sort of strain you’re dealing with and treat it accordingly.
Going raw is probably not a good option.
KMS- I hadn’t followed what had been going on with your pup, so had to go back and read your entire history.
Antibiotic usage/overusage can become a vicious circle. You might want to google antibiotic induced colitis. The clostridium overgrowth is one thing that can cause colitis from the toxins they produce, although it’s very possible there might be multiple causes.
When you said your pup has had full-blown diarrhea the last 5 days, that would very much concern me. Are you checking to make sure he isn’t becoming dangerously dehydrated? Lift the skin on the back of neck/shoulders. When released, the skin should spring back to to normal fairly quickly. Check the gums, they should be pink. Press on the gums briefly and pink color should return them within a second or 2. Mouth should not be overly dry nor saliva very sticky.
If the severe diarrhea isn’t causing an emergency situation, I would slow down on what you are introducing to him, with the exception of the pro-pectin you mentioned you already have. The main ingredient is kaolin, a form of bentonite clay, that should soothe and coat the intestines. It is also said to absorb toxins and bad bacteria. But you should also be aware that kaolin will interfere with absorption of some antibiotics, and specifically trimethoprin (the TMP in the antibiotic combo you mentioned). Pro-pectin also has one form of encapsulated beneficial bacterium in it. Then I would wait for the outside lab results, and then maybe go for the colonoscopy if advised.
If I were you, I wouldn’t yet even think about adding raw meat to his diet until you can get his intestinal flora back in balance, although a homemade lightly cooked one could be the way to go for awhile….
Since there is bacteria in the stool, I would go back to the double probiotics, because they compete with the bacteria. I think at this point I would treat for the Clostridium and I would be giving mine oil of oregano capsules(they are a natural antibacterial) even before the antibiotics. Hang in there!!
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This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by
theBCnut.
duke the boxer –
Thanks – I’ll look at that but I hesitate about grains because I read several places that that they’re inflamatory and not good for colitus dogs. The diarrhea did start aroud day #5 on the NVI Rabbit (so maybe it’s the food?) – but it also coincides with when I stopped the double doses of theraputic Probitoics and went down to maint (so maybe it’s that?). I talked to the vet tech who ran his stool the other day and she said that he had a “moderate” amount of Clostridium in it “more than is normally found”. So it could be that too? or a combo of them all????? She said they are really stumped.
I have been reading about how digestive enzymes can sometimes cause diarrhea in dogs with Colitus, so i stopped them on Fri night to see if anything changed. It has only been 24 hrs, but no change so far – still 100% diarrhea.
I can give him anti-biotics (SMZ TMP), but I know that they could be what caused the Colitus in the first place. (Although I was not giving probiotics back then). Or I could change the food again? fast him?
Summary… 6 mo old Weim who has had soft stools since we got him at 9 wks. Has had Colitus for the last couple months after 3 rounds of anti-biotics (for high bacteria in stool). Currently has full blown diarrhea (for the last 5 days) and stool test shows no parasites but a moderate level of Clostridium. He’s eating NVI Rabbit (day #6), taking probiotics but no Digestive enzymes. Outside lab results of his stool are not due till Wed or Thurs.
Pattyvaughn, RescueDaneMom, Duke and anyone else – what do you think? Thank you.
Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch might be the closest to what you are looking for. I’m not sure if Meadow Feast will do, it’s lamb based. I’m not sure if they have natural flavors, but I know they don’t have tomato pomace. If they have natural flavors, they are less likely to be something totally gross and unnatural. You might also look into Fromm Salmon Tunalini or Beef Fritatta and see what they have. Fromm is known for the quality of their ingredients, but off the top of my head I don’t know what other protein sources might be in those two, if any. Good luck!
ETA: I just checked Fromm and they use tomato pomace.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by theBCnut.
Ok, davinoj again, on second look the calcium looks a bit high. We are struggling because we are trying to feed a product without any fillers like tomato pommace or “natural flavors” in the listing and can’t seem to get a product with everything in it. I guess that’s why some go Raw. We just don’t have the time. We seriously need some help trying to decide. Also, we need to avoid chicken and turkey we’ve been told for our Bouvier and to stick with foods they would have had in the wild such as beef and fish. Help!
One of the important numbers with calcium is grams of calcium per 1000 kcal. This is a better determination of how much calcium the dog is actually getting. It needs to be under 3.5gm of calcium per 1000kcal and all of the Acana line, as well as the Orijen line, is too high.
Hi all, we are new to this terrific post/forum. We have a new Bouvier des Flandres puppy coming home in two weeks. We fed our last one from the ACANA line and wondered why none of their products are included. The Pacifica in particular has a great ingredient list, no fillers and has the right calcium and phosphorous amounts and ratio. It seems to fit. Here is the analysis from their website. We’d like to know if this is ok for our puppy. Also, the ‘Singles’ Duck & Pear also looks good except the protein is at 25% and perhaps a bit low. Here is the Pacifica info:
Crude protein (min.) 33%
Crude fat (min.) 17%
Crude fiber (max.) 5%
Moisture (max.) 10%
Calcium (min.) 1.5 %
Phosphorus (min.) 1.2%
Calcium: Phosphorus Ratio 1.3:1
Since there are Earthborn formulas on HDM’s list, I would assume that Puppy Vantage did not make the list because it has too much calcium.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast, both, made the list.
Hi all,
What great info here!! I was wondering what people thought of Earthborn Puppy Vantage for our 11 weeks old Great Dane/Lab mix? Does that have too much calcium in it? Thanks!!!
Hi there, just checking back in, any thoughts, comments etc on the food I posted the link to at Colorado Natural Pet ?
Thanks all
WC
kms i know you didnt want to try another chicken based food but id really recommend trying nutrisource large breed chicken and rice. duke went from straight diarrhea to firm stools within the next day of going to nutrisource. Its not something that i stayed with nor do you have to stay with it but maybe it will help stabilize his stomach and firm his stools enough to get a regular routine. just a thought
Augie’s vet appt was yesterday. He is 38 lbs (gaining about 1 lb every 7-8 days). He has had diarrhea for last 3 days for no apparent reason (no pattern, no changes). The nearest “change” to that was when I reduced the probiotics from Theraputic dose to Maint about 3 days prior to that. So yesterday, they tested him again for everything (hook, whip, Giarddia, Coccidia, Clostridium,….). They tested a stool I brought with me – plus they took a fecal. Both stools came back clean except for a little Clostridium. Vet said he feels that he has had ongoing bouts of colitis ever since the antibiotics back in Oct. Even despite trying 2 different foods, adding probiotics, digestive enzymes and pumpkin, it has not resolved. Vet sent part of the fecal to an outside lab to see what they can find. It will take 7 days for results. If they do not find anything, he thinks we should see a specialist and they will prob want to do a colonoscopy.
I’m trying to see if the diarrhea resolves itself, but seeing no improvement. Today was same thing. The vet gave me a prescription for SMZ Tmp, just in case the diarrhea does not improve in the next day or so – but I fear that will just make it worse. I don’t even know what to say at this point. He’s eating, drinking, playing, sleeping normally – and no vomiting at all. I still hope he just needs a combination of healing and a food that will agree with him, but that is looking less and less likey every day. Right now, he has full blown diarrhea and that worries me. I do have a tube of Pro-Pectalin (he took that to help solidify the stool when this first started back in Oct) , but I really hate to give him anything new at all right now.
i would love to feed duke the annamaet aqualuk formula but its so expensive for a college student like me -_- i do eventually want to try the salcha but i want to try another protein thats not chicken for dukes next bag. i will probably either get one of the earthborn formulas or the pet pantry food. In all honesty i just want a food that is rich in meat protein and not so much the fillers and plant proteins.
I’m not sure if you are feeding grains or not. I’ve fed my big guy Annamaet and Earthborn Holistic with great success. My grain-free picks from the list would be: Annamaet Aqualuk (fish), Earthborn Meadow Feast (lamb) or Earthborn Coastal Catch (fish). Canine Caviar Wilderness (venison) or Open Sky (Duck) look good too- never personally fed this brand but I like the looks of it. My grain-inclusive picks would be: Annamaet Option (salmon and venison) and Victor Select Lamb Meal & Brown Rice. I’ve never heard of Pet Pantry dog food so I googled it. It looks like a pretty good food. I think the Buffalo and Duck would be worth a try. I’m currently feeding The Honest Kitchen and raw to my Dane and he is loving it. The Honest Kitchen Love is beef (though it’s pricey). Let us know what you end up with and how it goes. š
yup no real preference to grains cuz he did super well on the chicken and rice formula of nutrisource and the dr tims so he is good with grains. i will definitely look into the carn4 duck formula. I really would love to feed duke annamaet but they are pricey -_-
I love Earthborn, so Coastal Catch is easy for me to recommend. I’ve been very curious about Fromm’s Beef Frittata and Salmon Tunalini, but I haven’t tried them yet. If you are not staying grain free and price is no object, Carna4 Duck would be high on my list. Also look at Annamaet’s foods. They are a good company.
Hey patty im sorry to bother you but i have been looking at the list over and over and i cant decide what to get. I wanted to switch from chicken and turkey as that has been his last 2 foods and i believe he is allergic to turkey since his nose and feed are pink always. I was looking at the pet pantry buffalo and duck dog food. also i was looking at zignature trout meal and also i was looking at the earthborn meadow feast and costal catch. Can you please maybe recommend preferably a beef or fish based dog food? I would love you forever š and this isnt specific to Patty anyone who is reading this and has a large breed dog please chime in what food you have used that isnt chicken based
Thanks Betsy & Patty
Here is the link to Colorado Natural Pet, you will see they sell Ammamaet (not Salcha unfortunately), Precise but also have their own CNP food which is what I am referring too. Its made at the same processing plan with the oversight of the receipe by the same nutritionalist as Ammamaet. The difference is that CNP is made to order every 4 weeks, uses less packaging and passes on the savings by the looks of things. Please do let me know your thoughts as I really do appreciate the feedback
I have asked them to provide me the amount of calcium per 1000 KCAL and should have that info soon
http://www.coloradonaturalpet.net/shop/product-category/dog-food-2/
Thanks
WC
Hi Wildcat 1,
Congrats on the new puppy!
What brand of food is it that you’re referring to? Maybe we could take a look at some additional information about the product to get a better idea of its overall quality.
Whether or not you go with a grain inclusive or grain free food doesn’t matter too much as long as it doesn’t have a ton of it and the dog does fine on it. Many of us use growth foods for the life of the dog. There is nothing in a growth food that an adult can’t have and often the growth foods are better quality at the same price. Growth and All Life Stages are the same thing. If a food meets the requirements for Growth, the company can choose to have it labeled for All Life Stages.
I would not use a food just because the same guy that formulated another food, formulated it. Make sure it has less than 3.5gm of calcium per 1000kcal.
Have fun with your pup! I love GSDs.
Hi all
I
have been reading this topic and the dogfoodadvisor reviews with great interest as I am about to welcome home a new GSD pup. I want to start on a higher quality food than I used in past (Blue Buffalo) and this current pup supposedly is on Eukanuba large breed puppy.
Hound Dog Mom did some great work and without her spreadsheet this would seem like an even more impossible task š I also read with interest the threads about calcium levels and was about to pull the trigger on Orijen Large Breed Puppy until I saw the potential issues there with calcium. So, with that said I narrowed it down to Annamaet as the one I want to try, specifically Salcha.
Once i looked into local availability I found a company producing something with the same nutritionalist as Annamaet and thought I might give that a try.
This particular company has a couple of products one of which is a grain inclusive puppy specific (28% protein min, 17% fat min, 3.5% fiber, 1.16% calcium dry) specific, the next is an all stages grain free (turkey, chicken, catfish) which is 29% protein, 14% fat 3.5% fiber 1.49% calcium or they have a grain free duck and bison which is 30% protein, 16% fat, 4% fiber.
The questions I have are:
1) Grain free or grain inclusive for puppies ?
2) If grain free as puppy I assume there are still grain free solutions for when they get older (needing leaner food etc) ?
3) Better to go with puppy or all stage food in general ?
Thanks so much all
WC
You need to call the company and ask for the “as fed” calcium level. That should be a percentage. And you will need to convert the kcalories per can to kcalories per kilogram. Then you can figure out the grams of calcium per 1000 kcalories. You want it to be under 3.5gm calcium per 1000kcal.
Thanks Patty. I am trying to figure out the calcium level for a 5 month old large breed puppy who is eating canned food.
sharfie
You can use the same method, but you may have more conversions to do depending on what you are trying to figure out.
Duke the Boxer –
I got this for Augie and it has slowed down his eating significantly. He used to wolf down 1.5 cups of food in less than a minute. Now it takes him a good 8-10 minutes. It’s harder to clean than a regular stainless steel bowl, but well worth it. In case the link below doesn’t work, it’s called the “Pet SkidStop Slow Feed Pet Bowl” – found it on Amazon.
Hi Angie and congrats on the new “baby”! You’re on the right track with choosing to go raw for your little guy. Neapolitan Mastiffs are prone to hip dysplasia which can lead to arthritis as they get older so it’s important to choose on a good diet as a puppy to prevent a lot of vet bills (and heartache) down the road. Here’s a good article from raw dog food diet guru, Robert Mueller that explains how diet can help prevent hip dysplasia in large and giant breed dogs: http://www.barfworld.com/blog/?p=2422.
Best of luck to you both š
Does any one know about the calcium levels in canned food? Would one be able to calculate using the same method as for the dry and raw? Also, is the canned food usually “all life stages” and appropriate for a puppy? Sorry if this has been asked and answered already.
Have her feed him in a muffin tin.
Hmm i definitey think that could be the issue. At night i usually watch him eat and make him slow down and swallow his food every little bit. In the morning my mother feeds him early and she doesnt watch him and if hes not watched Duke will devour the food within 5 minutes
He might be eating too fast or gulping air. Is it real soon after he eats? One of mine used to do that in the morning. I always figured that his tummy was so empty that he was inhaling his food. I started giving him just a handful of his food, then a bit later a little more, and then the rest of it. He stopped vomitting. I eventually started just pouring his kibble all over the bottom of his crate to make him eat slower. I also started saving a small amount of his evening meal to give right at bed time so he wasn’t going as long before getting more food in his stomach.
hey Patty, Duke is not 7 months and 51 pounds! So excited. I started to notiece some weird patches and i took him to the vent and it turned up to be demodetic mange or demodex. After he went on the medicine for the mange thats when he gained the 8 pounds in 3 1/2 weeks. But recently sometimes in the mornings he will throw up some or all of his food. It is not everyday or even every other day so thats why its confusing me.
Any thoughts? He is transitioning into wellness core puppy which he had been on before and never had these problems. Could it be food related?
HDM doesn’t come here very often. She is busy with school and other projects.
Here is her list of foods that are OK.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v
NVI raw is not one of them. The end of the list is the raw foods that made the list.
Question for Hound Dog Mom.
What do you think of feeding an English Mastiff puppy Nature’s Variety Instinct Raw Frozen food. We are looking to blend a kibble and a more convent pre made raw food. The dry kibble will be Nature’s Variety Instinct Rabbit
Would love some thoughts.
If the vet finds nothing, stop everything except the food for a few days and see if that helps. In a perfect world, you can’t give too many probiotics, however the probiotics have other things in them besides just probiotics. If he is sensitive to the other stuff in probiotics, or digestive enzymes, then taking him off of them for a few days should help. It may do nothing at all, but then you would know that they aren’t contributing to the problem. I would take him down to the normal dose of probiotics now anyway. By now he has got to have what his system can support in his system. Right now, I feel like straws is all we have to grasp at. Basically, this has been going on long enough that I feel like if you can think of something different to try, try it, just wait until after the next fecal check.
So do you mean stay on double doses of Probiotics, regular doses of Digestive Enzymes and Perfect Form till vet appt – and then, if stool is clear, discontinue all of it or just the PF and pumpkin? Just want to make sure I don’t misunderstand.
A was thinking yesterday… could the twice per day double dose of Probiotics for 2 1/2 weeks be too much for him? I could back it down to a double dose once per day (that’s actually what the jar calls a “theraputic dose”). I called Mercola and asked if that could cause loose stool. She said that you really can’t give too much of Probiotics, but some dogs will end up with loose stool if they have too much of a build up in their system. Probably grasping at straws here…
Hmmm… This is a really tough one. I wonder if he can’t handle fiber and needs to go off of the pumpkin and perfect form altogether. I guess if it were me I would keep him on the prefect form until the vet appointment, and if the vet doesn’t find anything in his stool, I would take him off everything but the food for a bit and see what happens. It is true that it can take longer for things to work all the way out, but in my experience you should be seeing some changes by now.
mfulton7 –
Thanks. I appreciate your feedback very much and need all the help I can get. I hope “more time” is what it comes down to – that would be a huge relief. I think I’ve read so many threads where people said they noticed a change in stool fairly quickly, that I assumed this was another dead end. It has only been 6 days since he has been on NVI Rabbit @ 100% (plus I changed the protein source), so maybe he just needs more time to adapt to the food and for his gut to heal. I will rule out parasites again while I’m waiting.
All –
When first starting out on perfect Form, does the stool get worse before it gets better? I gave him PF twice per day for the last 2 days and his stool got progressively softer. Last night, it was even to the point of runny – like a thick tomato juice. This morning, it was half formed and half soft again. I’m just wondering if this is normal or if there is something in it that doesn’t agree with him.
Chicken fat should not be a problem. The way they render to get the fat seperated should leave just pure fat, no protein. Grains are a problem for some dogs, but others handle them just fine. Usually the problem is in how much grains are in something, not the fact that it’s grains. With gut issues, the problem is that grains can be inflamatory, so if the gut is already inflamed, you don’t want to make things worse by feeding something inflamatory. All you can do is keep trying different things until something works, and if that thing is grains, good, at least you found what works.
kms- sorry for cutting in here. My opinion is that your dog hasn’t been on the new food long enough. If a dog food isn’t working for your dog it takes a few weeks to figure it out. My vet recommends at least 6 weeks, I can usually tell if it is working by 4 weeks with my dogs. That being said my dogs have been on quite a few different types of food. Most recently we had brought a dobie home and she hadn’t had firm stools. We tried 2 different foods with her and she still had runny stools. Now she’s been on the new food EB meadowfeast for 3 wks and her stools have finally started to firm up. In my opinion you need to wait it out a little longer. If you really want I’d have the stool tested but if it comes up neg then stick with the food a little longer at least 4 weeks. I hope this helps!
I made a vet appt for this coming wed – will have a fecal sent out. Also, I started Perfect Form last night. He ate it right up – no issue with taste. So far, he has had 3 stools – all 3 softer/runnier than normal. But he has only had 2 doses, so it’s prob too soon to tell. As far as pumpkin, I’ll stop that today.
I like everything I’ve read about Honest Kitchen products and would be willing to try. Also have been reading about Primal, Darwin and NV frozen and freeze-dried raw. My biggest fear is that things could get worse at a critical time in his development. I’d also have to face both my vet and breeder – who aren’t really in favor of my direction so far (in terms of going to a kibble rotation diet and also for heading toward raw down the road). But I’ll keep reading and taking baby steps. Another reason why I’m so thankful for this forum.
The NVI Rabbit uses chicken fat as a preservative and it’s 4th on the ingredient list. So NVI Rabbit is not 100% chicken-free, but it’s fat instead of meat. I don’t know if that changes anything. In other words, can I still rule out “chicken intolerance” – or could that small amount of chicken fat still cause a chicken intolerance? I really hope his system just needs more time to heal, as Pattyvaughn sugggested. It’s just that I’ve never had a dog who didn’t have worms or diarrrhea at some point – and it has always been remedied quickly. So I keep worrying that it’s something more serious.
I’ve read on threads where people go back to grain-inclusive and the stools get better. Why is that? I thought grains were not good for a dog. The reason I went grain-free is because I thought it would be healthier and the food would be less likely to trigger an allergy.
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
kms.
I still think his digestive system is just off from everything before, but it’s best to check and make sure. After you have tried Perfect Form for a bit, try to find chia seeds at the health food store or try a little psyllium powder. Maybe pumpkin is not the fiber for him, for that matter, stop the pumpkin while he is on Perfect Form.
Interesting. I don’t think he’s sensitive to chicken then since he hasn’t improved on the rabbit food. That sounds like our rottie right now. He’s still recovering from a nasty reaction to his last chemo treatment. The drug did not agree with him at all. I think it killed off everything in his gut. We’ve been feeding him 3x a day with probiotics and enzymes in every meal. We had him on Nutrisource Weight Management for the high fiber (12%) which helps his diarrhea. Now he’s got mostly solid poop with the runny stuff at the end because we switched him to the Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural (2.5% fiber) with no transition time. He just decided he didn’t want to eat the Nutrisource anymore. I was thinking that fiber might be the issue with your guy but that doesn’t make sense either. You tried 2 higher fiber foods: Orijen at 6% and NVI at 7%. I’m kinda stumped. Hopefully the Perfect Form will start helping. After you run out of NVI you could try NV Prairie LBP to see if he does any better with grains. I also wonder if he might do better on a dehydrated food like Honest Kitchen. It might be easier on his digestive system than kibble. Sorry I can’t be of more help. Those are just some thoughts I had. It sounds like all you can do is trial and error right now until you can definitively rule out parasites again.
4 months ago
