Wysong Epigen (Dry)

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Rating: ★★★★★

Wysong Epigen Dog Food gets the Advisor’s top rating of 5 stars.

The Wysong Epigen product line includes three dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for adult maintenance.

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review.

  • Wysong Epigen
  • Wysong Epigen Fish
  • Wysong Epigen Venison

Wysong Epigen Original Chicken formula was selected to represent the other products in the line for this review.

Wysong Epigen Original Chicken Formula

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 67% | Fat = 17% | Carbs = 9%

Ingredients: Organic chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, potato protein, meat protein isolate, chicken fat, gelatin, dried plain beet pulp, natural flavor, coconut oil, chia seeds, salt, calcium carbonate, tomato pomace, calcium propionate, taurine, choline chloride, organic barley grass powder, blueberry, dried kelp, yogurt (whey, milk solids, yogurt cultures), apple pectin, fish oil, yeast extract, citric acid, chicory root, hemicellulose extract, mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, yeast culture, carrots, celery, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, minerals (potassium chloride, zinc proteinate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, iron proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, manganese sulfate, manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate), vitamins (ascorbic acid [source of vitamin C], vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid), dried Bacillus licheniformis fermentation product, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus lactis fermentation product, pepper

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 4.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis60%15%NA
Dry Matter Basis67%17%9%
Calorie Weighted Basis58%35%7%

The first ingredient in this dog food is organic chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The third ingredient is turkey meal, another protein-rich meat concentrate.

The fourth ingredient is potato protein, the dry residue remaining after removing the starchy part of a potato.

Even though it contains over 80% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.

And less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The fifth ingredient is , a product made by “separating meat protein from fresh, clean, unadulterated bones by heat processing followed by low temperature drying to preserve function and nutrition. This product is characterized by a fresh meaty aroma, a 90% minimum protein level, 1% maximum fat and 2% maximum ash”.1

Contrary to what the name would normally imply, this item is not generic. According to Wysong (on its website), this ingredient is derived exclusively from pork meat.

This is a quality source of meat-based protein.

The sixth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

The seventh ingredient is gelatin, a colorless, flavorless, translucent, brittle substance that’s irreversibly derived from the collagen found in the skin and bones of animals.

Although it consists mostly of protein (98-99% non-essential amino acids), gelatin is of only limited nutritional value to a dog.

The eighth ingredient is beet pulp. Beet pulp is a controversial ingredient, a high fiber by-product of sugar beet processing.

Some denounce beet pulp as an inexpensive filler while others cite its outstanding intestinal health and blood sugar benefits.

We only call your attention here to the controversy and believe the inclusion of beet pulp in reasonable amounts in most dog foods is entirely acceptable.

After the natural flavor, we find coconut oil. Depending upon the quality of the raw material, coconut oil is rich in medium chain fatty acids.

Coconut oil has been reported to have a beneficial effect on a dog’s skin and coat, improve digestion, and reduce allergic reactions.2

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With five notable exceptions

First, chia seed is an edible seed nutritionally similar to flax or sesame. Provided they’re first ground into a meal, chia seeds are rich in both omega-3 fatty acids as well as dietary fiber.

However, chia seeds contain about 17% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the meat content of this dog food.

Next, tomato pomace is a controversial ingredient, a by-product remaining after processing tomatoes into juice, soup and ketchup.

Many praise tomato pomace for its high fiber and nutrient content, while others scorn it as an inexpensive pet food filler.

Just the same, there’s probably not enough tomato pomace here to make much of a difference.

In addition, fish oil is naturally rich in the prized EPA and DHA type of omega-3 fatty acids. These two high quality fats boast the highest bio-availability to dogs and humans.

Depending on its level of freshness and purity, fish oil should be considered a commendable addition.

Next, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

And lastly, this food also contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Wysong Epigen Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Wysong Epigen looks like an above-average dry dog food.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 67%, a fat level of 17% and estimated carbohydrates of about 9%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 67% and a mean fat level of 13%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 12% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 20%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the potato protein and chia seed, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing an abundance of meat.

By the way, what impresses us most here isn’t the extraordinary protein content of these products. It’s actually the unique process Wysong uses to avoid the starchy binders normally required for making any kibble.

A process which can cap the meat content of most dry dog food recipes at well under 40%.

But Wysong claims its Epigen product contains 60% meat. What’s more, our computations project a a carb content here of an exceptionally low 12%.

In addition, those looking to mimic a dog’s natural ancestral diet should find Wysong Epigen an appropriate choice.

Bottom line?

Wysong Epigen is a meat-based kibble using an abundance of chicken, fish or venison as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Those looking for a quality wet product to use with this kibble may wish to visit our review of Wysong Au Jus canned dog food.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Notes and Updates

05/18/2014 Last Update

  1. Association of American Feed Control Officials
  2. Dr. Bruce Fife, Healthy Ways Newsletter, Vol 4:3
  • ShellH

    My dogs and cats have very loose manure and are drinking lots of water. Definitely don’t like the current formula. Will be searching for something to replace the high protein/meat content of Epigen.

  • Jim Rothe

    I’ve had my dog on Wysong products for the past two and a half years. He always did very well on a variety of the Epigen products, and did fine with Optimal Performance, too. But a few months ago, when Wysong changed their formula for Epigen – without bothering to point this out with any kind of “new formula” clause displayed anywhere on the product label – my dog’s digestion took a marked turn for the worse. Instead of healthy, firm stool, every bowel movement came out like pancake batter. After going through a few days of this without him getting any better, I started suspecting this batch of Epigen. I had already noticed a difference in the color of the kibble, but dismissed the idea that something could be wrong with the product. Well, maybe not.

    So I returned the remaining bags of Epigen that I had, and made a point of aquiring a different batch. My supplier was also good enough to track down a couple of bags of the old formula/labeled Epigen. The results were very telling: he did fine on the old formula, and terrible on any quantity of the new formula that I mixed into his diet. That was it – no more Epigen products for my boy!

    We switched to Wysong’s Optimal Performance, and he initially did well on that. And then, it seems, Wsyong apparently changed the formula for Optimal Performance. Whatever the change is, it does not agree with my dog’s digestive system. More pancake batter. I decided to give him about two weeks on the new formula to see if he would adapt to it, but we’ve now gone through about three weeks and it’s not getting any better.

    So we’re done with Wysong. That’s a shame, because the company really seemed to have quality products and an impressive philosophy about pet health. But if the ingredients are making dogs sick, then it doesn’t matter what scientific basis you use to justify your ingredients – I can’t continue to do this to my dog.

  • ash

    I agree, the recent formula change has caused GI disturbances in my dog as well. She’d been eating this for several years. I emailed back and forth with the company about the reason for the changes, as they did not seem to be for the better. At the same time they implemented a price increase by changing the size (32 lbs no longer available); now they have 20 lbs for a higher per pound cost. Their replies on reasons for change were generic and entirely unsatisfying. Ugh.

  • mopsie1

    They have changed the ingredients/formula for this food. I would really appreciate a new review. The ingredients now contain things like blueberries and tomatoes…things my dog’s stomach cannot tolerate. Sadly, we need to switch.

  • mopsie1

    Correct.

  • mopsie1

    Wysong does not endorse the whole “grain free” concept. What they advocate for is starch free– there actually is a big difference.

  • mopsie1

    FYI- they have just recently changed the formula of Wysong Epigen and it may be nutritionally as good but it is not agreeing with our dog’s stomach at all. (Causing extreme flatulence and soft stools, plus eye discharge). It’s a shame because the previous version was absolutely perfect.

  • Crazy4cats

    Joel-
    I buy the Pure Balance canned food at Walmart occasionally. I think it is a great deal. I’ve been buying the beef, veges, and rice formula. My dogs love it and it looks and smells great! Good luck!

  • Joel Cottone

    thats great all of those are much more affordable to me, and the fact that i can get them from chewy along with my kibble makes me even happier, as i would rather shop at chewy then walmart (booo). i am becomming a huge chewy fan, i just learned of them recently and it’s where i am currently getting my cat’s merrick food (i dont rotate the cats food right now, maybe we’ll start doing that too…i have found a few other GF cat foods simmilar price to what merrick offers which is much more practical then say orijen cat food :-O ). Chewy is so great even when i made a mistake and ordered 3oz cans of canned food instead of 5.5oz cans they just told me to keep the 3oz cans, refunded my money and sent me the new 5.5oz cans with free shipping, and no tax to boot! amazing customer service, selection and i just like them so much better then getting my merrick from petco like i formerly was. i was feeling really bad because i feed my cats merrick canned food and wasnt sure if i could swing it for my dog but these suggestions make it much more practical to add to the kibbles i’ve selected. thanks again for your help.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    If you shop on Chewy a lot, three brands of canned food that are fairly reasonably priced are:

    Dave’s. They have some 95% meat varieties that run $20.99 per case ($1.75 per can). Rated 5 stars.

    By Nature. Their 95% meat varieties range from $16.34 to $18.99 per case ($1.36 – $1.58 per can). Rated 5 stars.

    Whole Earth Farms. They offer a few different formulas that are all $21.99 per case ($1.83 per can). Rated 5 stars.

    I’m a big Chewy fan.

  • Joel Cottone

    Thank you that helps alot. I am still learning a lot about this stuff. I did not know wellness did that in 2012, but that makes me feel a lot better, i will contact them myself to verify that about the core line but i am feeling much better now about what will be a good diet for my new pup! and yeah i still may add in some Epigen every once in a while, as it now comes in 5lb bags i can just buy one of those every now and then if i want. Thanks for the suggestions on cheaper canned food costco and tractor supply arent in my town, only have petsmart and petco here but they are a few towns over and i can check them out without much drive, and of course i have a walmart in my town. i would have never thought to check walmart for anything for my pet, as i hate walmart (thats where my grandmother buys her purina dog chow and Alpo, yuck!, cant change her mind she thinks ‘it works for my dog his whole life etc..’) but i will check that out as it’s much more price friendly then the others which are 2.50-3.00 per can that i was looking at on chewy.com…

  • Hound Dog Mom

    WellnPet does own their own manufacturing facility. It’s located in Mishawaka, IN. They’ve owned their own plant for a long time but it was rather small so only a few formulas were manufactured in-house and the rest were outsourced. However, in 2012 they had a huge multi-million dollar expansion and now the majority of their products are made at the WellPet facility. I know all of the Eagle Pack and Holistic Select formulas are made in-house and most of the Wellness formulas are as well (I believe a few formulas are still outsourced to Hagen and Vitaline). You may want to contact Wellness directly to verify this but I’m almost certain that all of the CORE formulas are made in-house.

    I think rotating between Fromm, Orijen and Wellness would provide decent variety. You could even use the Epigen occasionally, it’s not a bad food by any means I just wouldn’t use it as a sole diet.

    As a college student myself I understand that money is tight. Canned food is indeed expensive however there are a few highly rated formulas that are very reasonably priced and as long as you’re only using the canned food as a “topper” (20% or less of the meal) I wouldn’t stress too much about calcium levels. If you live near a Tractor Supply their house brand 4Health is rated 4.5 stars and is only $0.99 per can. If you live near a Costco Kirkland Cuts in Gravy runs about $0.79 per can and is rated 5 stars. Walmart has a new house brand called Pure Balance the which is rated 5 stars and runs $1 per can, they recently came out with a 95% meat grain-free variety which hasn’t been rated yet but I believe is somewhere around $1.20 per can. As these are balanced they wouldn’t really aid with offsetting the ca:p ratio in the Orijen but what you could use for that is fresh meat. Most grocery stores carry various offal gizzards, heart, liver (just don’t go overboard on liver), etc. really cheap. Meat is high in phosphorus but has virtually no calcium so you could mix in a bit with the Orijen. You could also scan the meat aisle for items on sale – oftentimes bone-in chicken and turkey will go on sale for less than $1/lb at my store. You can could just boil that up and take it off the bone and dice it up.

    Other “budget-friendly” and healthy toppers (not for offsetting the C:P ratio but just as a general healthy boost for kibble) would be eggs, tinned sardines (omega 3’s!) or plain yogurt or kefir (probiotics!).

  • Joel Cottone

    The thing that worried me about Wellness was i wasnt sure where their food was manufactured while i know wysong, fromm, and orijen all have their own facilities which is why i liked them more. but i read on the wellness core review that, “Wellness brand has severed all ties with Diamond and Diamond does not and will not be manufacturing any of its food.” and that makes me feel a lot better as i will not feed a food made by diamond, however i still wish wellness had their own facility. You are suggesting that rotating between Fromms, Orijen, and Wellness and forgetting Epigen altogether would be better then just feeding Wellness on it’s own? The only thing with that for me is the canned food is very expensive and would likely double my food costs and as i am college student that would put a strain on me, but if it’s what is best for my dog i would be willing to do it, it’d just push my expenses. If i did do a diet of Fromm’s, Orijen, and Wellness with canned food toppers would i want to use the canned all meat toppers (the supplemental ones) to go along with all brands or just the Orijen? And would those three provide the a “good rotation”? Sorry for all the questions i’m just trying to figure out what will be best for my akita pup and your advice is very helpful. thanks again.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Orijen (fairly recently) reformulated their LBP formula and it’s almost within the acceptable range. If you were to rotate it with other foods that were well within that “safe” range and top with low calcium toppers such as fresh meat or canned all meat foods designated for intermittent or supplemental feeding (Tripett is a good one) as about 20% of each meal I think it would be okay to use. I agree Fromm is a little skimpy with meat protein but you could add a high protein canned topper to it. As for Wellness, I personally think WellPet is a great company and wouldn’t have an issue using their products. Don’t feel like you need to find a perfect food, just find a few that meet most of your criteria and rotate. The most important thing at this stage of life for a large breed puppy is proper calcium levels. Once he’s about 8-10 months old the calcium levels won’t be critical and it will open up a lot more options.

  • Joel Cottone

    great…everytime i think i’ve found a food that i will be able to feed my new puppy i find something “wrong” with it…At first it was Orijen but apparently it doesnt have the proper calcium levels for a large breed dog (Akita). Then i was leaning towards Fromm Surf and Turf Grain free but it doesnt seem to have enough meat content. Then i lean towards Epigen for it’s higher meat content then Fromm’s GF and find out this about their new formula. The last one on the list was Wellness Core Puppy but i really dont like Wellness as a company compared to Fromm, Wysong, and Orijen…Argg…

  • Shawna

    You beat me to the punch :).. I agree!!

  • Shawna

    When a protein is isolated (be it from peas, soy, meat or any other source) it is broken down to its most basic parts. This is often done with chemicals but there are more natural ways (such as with enzymes). This makes the protein VERY easy to digest and also makes it essentially allergen free (several of the hypoallergenic prescription diets use these types of isolates or concentrates is another term).

    With all the good however there can be bad. Have you heard of MSG aka Monosodium Glutamate. Monosodium glutamate is made of a salt and an isolated amino acid (like those in the Epigen ingredient). Aspartame is similar. These isolated amino acids can be healing but used long term or in high enough amounts (which varies by individual) are also “excitotoxins” and for those susceptible they can cause anything from lupus to brain damage to heart disease to aggression and on and on. And one may not know they are susceptible till the damage is done.

    I don’t think there’s been a lot, if any, research on the affects of excitotoxins in dogs but I have no reason to believe they might not be as, or maybe even more so, damaging.

    For this reason, I personally, would avoid this product unless used sparingly in a rotation diet or possibly short term as an elimination diet.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I know that there are many “protein isolate” supplements on the market for bodybuilders – including hydrolyzed meat proteins (usually beef). It’s a good thing (imo) that Wysong replaced some of the vegetable protein concentrates with animal-derived protein. One of my concerns with this ingredient was the fact that they didn’t label the source of the meat protein. I’m not certain that I buy that they are “not allowed” to specifically label it as pork protein isolate though.. My other concern would be that the hydrolyzation process forms free glutamic acid (aka MSG). Taking that into consideration, I’d probably recommend only feeding this food intermittently.

  • Joel Cottone

    i have no idea about the quality of “protein isolate” but from wysong’s website it claims: “Meat protein isolate, which is named so due to labeling regulations, is derived

    exclusively from pork meat. (Current regulations, for some unknown reason, do not permit a more descriptive term.) It

    is one of the cleanest and most pure sources of protein available.

    Those experienced with Epigen™ may note that the meat protein isolate is a new ingredient. We’ve identified it as

    superior to the spectrum of vegetable proteins used in the previous Epigen™ generation, and as a protein source that is

    philosophically more in line with Wysong’s approach because it is derived from meat.”

    i would like to know more about these ingridents because i am considering this dog food for my future puppy

  • Jennifer Kubler

    I think all the wysong products are great. My dachshund and domestic short hair love it.

  • InkedMarie

    Yep, both kinds. Thanks for posting!

  • soulfinder2012

    Have you tried the red bottle of Zymox,the more expensive formula? It seems to work much better.

  • InkedMarie

    Meat protein isolate….sounds yummy. Not.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Wysong recently updated the Epigen formulas. From what I can tell it appears that some of the vegetable protein concentrate has now been replaced with “meat protein isolate.” I suppose this would be such a bad thing if they had specified the source of the meat protein isolate. There’s also soybean oil in the fish and venison formulas which I’m pretty sure is something new (I wouldn’t consider that a good change either).

  • bruno pit

    Oh, then I absolutely recommend that you try it! Don’t buy from staffing directly though. They’re shipping prices are outrageous. There are a few suggestions here on where to buy it. I started buying it from chewys one they started carrying it. Then, like I said, I would recommend that you continue the Zymox and then maybe go for the nutro venison and brown rice. When I tell you that this has helped dogs with extreme issues, I’m not even kidding. I wish you all the best with this situation. If you have any other questions along the way I will be happy to help in any way that I can. Also, do NOT let your very talk you into antibiotics. They are one of the worst things you can give a dog with yeast issues in the long run.

  • InkedMarie

    No, I’m not feeding the food but it’s on a list of possibilities. He will be 8 next month & has had two ear infections in almost seven years, til April. Had countless since. My holistic vet suggested raw, which I can’t do now, or Natural Balance lid sweet potato & fish. I hate the food but darn it, it’s working. I have a list of possibilities for coming months. I used the Zymox otic, mostly hydrocortisone free.

  • bruno pit

    Are you currently feeding epigen to your dog? I had originally used this food because my dog had allergies which, as they often do, turned into a yeast overgrowth. This was great when I had him on the “elimination” diet. You have to make sure that you don’t give your dog anything (food, treats, etc) with grain, OR potato. Potato “feeds” yeast, even though many people don’t know this. Anyway, after getting my dog back on track, I have now been feeding him Nutro venison and brown rice formula and have had great success… no more issues. I have also put every foster who comes into my house (many with yeast issues) on this nutro v&br as well, and they have all responded amazingly. I have also recommended it to many of my friends who had equally successful results. Mind you, mostly these were skin issues, but a couple with both skin and ear issues. The dogs with ear issues were treated with the zymox and given the nutri v&br. For some reason the brown rice didn’t seem to bother them. Now I (thank god) never needed to end up doing the whole Nzyme thing (I’m sure you’ve heard of it?), but I guess if all else fails you can try that or feeding raw. I would also revisit the zymox once you do switch your dog’s food. Did you use both the rinse and the solution? I am sorry you (and your dog) are having this issue. I know how frustrating it can be.

  • InkedMarie

    Sorry, I missed this response…..I used to use Zymox with great results but since April, no such luck. Thanks, though!

  • bruno pit

    I don’t have this issue, but the best stuff for yeasty ears is zymox. They make a cleaner and also a solution. Look them up on Amazon and read the reviews.

  • InkedMarie

    Is anyone currently feeding this, who’s dogs have yeasty ears?

  • Magwheelz

    I would rotate with something else whether it’s with another brand’s food or more of Wysong’s. They even suggest this- or if also going “raw”.

  • Magwheelz

    Great stuff. Wish the kibble were a bit bigger though.

  • bruno pit

    I’m so glad that my comment helped you in some way. Definitely makes it worth commenting.

  • Julie

    If you’d post your miracle cure for UTIs in cats I’d definitely read it.

  • bruno pit

    I have not been on here in a while. When I last updated I said that I was no longer feeding Epigen to my dog due to poop issues but was still feeding to my cat who absolutely loved it. Well, now I am no longer feeding it to her either because I realized, without a doubt, that it was causing her to get really bad urinary tract infections. I personally can no longer recommend this food. I have, in the process, found the miracle cute to urinary tract infections in cats. At least something good came of it, even though she hasn’t had one since I stopped feeding her this food, it’s still good to know.

  • pusherswithdegrees

    I’m glad to see your comment because I’ve been feeding Wysong Epigen 60 for just over a year now and as I was fading the other kibbles, (Nature’s Variety because of the higher starch content), I noticed the loose stools. So I started adding Precise Holistic half/half to get the stools back to normal. I rotate flavors but just recently I got Venison and noticed that my older dog is leaving the Venison kibbles in her bowl. She’d never ever left food behind before. And my younger dog now waits before eating, like she’s not very found of it. So, as not to waste the very expensive Venison kibbles. I just re-ordered the chicken flavor and hopefully fade out the Venison until I’m out.
    BTW, Wysong can be ordered through most Pet boutique without shipping fees.

  • 2yes1no

    My 4yo Shep mix has had continuous allergy problems since I adopted him as a pup – ongoing yeast infections in his ears & constant chewing of his paws, & nothing has helped him. In my research I found Epigen & my 3 dogs have been on Epigen now for 2 months & I’ve seen no improvement in my Shep’s allergies, plus my 2yo shelter Lab refuses to eat it. Period. She will eat everything else in her bowl while nudging the Epigen pellets to the side, so into the trash it goes. Does she know something I don’t? :( Cost doesn’t factor in when it comes to my dogs’ health & for the price of Epigen I really expected better results. Now the search is on again…

  • Megaera Gryphon

    I’m vegan but this totally made me laugh.

  • whattofeed

    There has been a recall in 2009

  • vwstella

    WYSONG HAS A WONDERFUL WEBSITE & THE DR. HAS WROTE MANY BOOKS ON PET NUTRITION… AD , I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THEY ONLY MAKE THERE FOOD & IT IS HUMAN GRADE INGREDIENTS . AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN A RECALL.

  • vwstella

    its cat & dog food . same formula & its great. I have been adding it in my 4 health & feel it may be worth the extra $$ to feed epigen chicken. my dogs had problems with the other wysong drys .. usually the runs. real good results rotaing the 4health & epigen .. golden retrievers. fed twice a day ,. and , I use a lot of plain yogart, eggfs , green beans apples & for treats they love carrots.

  • http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

    I use the Fish one off and on. The bag actually says dog & cat food.

  • Hound Dog Mom

    I got some of this for the dogs to try and I had the bag opened on the counter, I left the room for a minute and when I came back one of my cats was on the counter eating it. Although, as I understand this can be fed to cats too, I’ve never had the cats show interest in a dry food like this – especially not something intended for the dogs. Not sure what the dogs think yet but the cats approve lol

  • liz

    Just go to http://www.wag.com. I order Epigen from the site and I got 20% off my order. Also, order over 50.00 is free shipping

  • Hound Dog Mom

    The carbs are good, I just think it needs more fat. I keep my dogs around 50% protein, 35% fat, 15% carbs.

  • Trinity

    Potisitively not! 68% protein is awesome. The fat should be higher 25-30 would be better. But the low carb is excellent. Have you ever seen what the ancestral diet of the canine looks like?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Ryder/100000704783855 Richard Ryder

    Isn’t it a bit too much to have 68% protein? Carbs and fat are both slightly over 10% (too low?)…

  • bruno pit

    I saw that! and of course in my head I said “I knew it”! Because the part of the story I left out, was that during that time I actually ended up returning 2 bags of that NV Beef back to Petco for exactly that reason. He wouldn’t eat it, and then I thought it had a very strange smell. I even had the petco employees all smelling it.

  • Risky81

    How very eerie that you posted this, because there is now a recall of NV beef formula…………….

  • Risky81

    Hey GSDgirl, i apologize if someone else said this already (I tried to read every comment but there are sooo many). I was wondering if you’d ever tried to just feed your dog a kibble with nothing else added, no meat or anything. My border collie cross used to have soft poop all the time and I couldn’t figure out why. When I got really lazy and poor and stopped supplementing her with raw food, her poops turned solid again. (Please note I’m not knocking raw food by any means, I actually am about to put all3 of my kiddos back on raw, I just think some dogs can’t handle it, or they can’t handle getting it intermittently).  Also I don’t think anyone mentioned a food allergy. Have you tried to do an elimination diet? I also wondered if he is having nerve issues, if maybe neighbors could be taunting him or something. This is a big problem in many areas because there are so many people who don’t like dogs.

  • christina

    Thanks bruno for this info because now i order from there and save$$$.  This is the only food my siberian husky will eat.

  • Pingback: wysong dog food | All About Pets

  • LabsRawesome

     Hey Jess, I think it’s rated 5 stars based on the “dashboard” profile. At 68% protein and carbs at just 11%. It is species appropriate food. Also it doesn’t have any serious “red flag” ingredients. If you read Mike’s review it makes sense that this food is a 5 star.  :)

  • Johnandchristo

    Marie……

    Yum…. wings and ribs bbq.

  • Marie

    I dunno, man. Both are warm-blooded vertebrates with four chambered hearts, and both are raised on farms and both are totally delicious barbecued. Tough call.

  • Maggswag

    Poultry fat cannot be pig lard. A pig is not poultry.

  • Jess

    Mike I can’t understand for the life of me how you could give this food a 5 star rating. With all your red ingredients (which I totally agree) this confuses me.  Potato protein should also be orange.  Chicken giblets should only be a minor ingredient at best and poultry fat is pig lard, ugh. I would rate this food 2 stars at best. Man plant protein is a terrible protein and is why meat protein gets a bad rap.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com/ Mike Sagman

    Hi Dave’s Hounds,

    The primary difference between Epigen and Epigen 90 is that the former uses plant-based protein boosters for much of its protein whereas the “90” recipe only uses meat (with no boosters).

    Hope this helps.

  • Dave’s Hounds

    What is the difference in ingredients between Wpigen and Epigen 90? I have a hard time telling the difference.

  • bruno pit

    For anyone looking to buy Epigen, go to Mr. Chewy’s site. Although I was happy with Wysong’s customer service, one bad thing about buying directly from them is they charge so much for shipping. I have complained to them, but they said there is nothing they can do about it.  For example, I just went to order some food and the total came to $26.78 and the shipping would have been an additional $15.80!!! Then I noticed that Mr. Chewy’s recently started selling it. I am thrilled! Shipping is only 4.95, and even better, it is free if you spend over 49.00.  I feel so much better about buying this wonderful food now. Like I said below, I have stopped giving it to my dog, but my cats are totally addicted to it.

  • Missy

    missy
    my dog has recently been doagnosed with diabetes , i feed him a high protien diest and want to start intergrating dry food back into his diet.the lowest carb dry food i have found is Wysong Epigen which is very good dog food, It has 11% carbs as content but I am wondering if anyone would be able to tell me how many carbs he is getting per serving .

    Thank you looking forward to hearing from anyone , If they have information
    Missy

  • bruno pit

    You can order it online at their website. http://www.wysong.net/products/epigen.php
    I have since had to stop feeding it to him again because of the poop problem, and he decided he didn’t want to eat it anymore. For me, it has served as a great food to determine my dog’s skin allergies, and it was also the only thing he would eat during a difficult time for him. Like I said though, it did give him major poop issues, and then he just refused to eat it. My cats eat the chicken flavor, but have no interest in the Venison. Now I am stuck with 5 brand new bags of the Venison left over, which I’m not thrilled about because it is very expensive. Oh well!

  • Jholbeck

    Where do I get it?

  • bruno pit

    Thanks for the response Melissa. Yes, that was why I had taken him off of it the first time. I had thought that maybe it was the venison that was too rich for him, so then I switched him to the chicken, but wasn’t much better. I finally just had to say that this food just wasn’t agreeing with him.  My problem is… he is allergic to so many things, and this was the ONLY food that has helped him with his skin issues, and seemed to take care of his yeast issues. And before anyone recommends, I can not do the N-zymes treatment either. A friend had recommended that maybe I should try giving a couple of tablespoons of pumpkin with his food? They said that that is not a canidae feeding food. The weird thing about it to me is the amount! It’s like an elephant. I don’t know if pumpkin is going to help that. 

    Anyone else have any experiences like this with this food? Anyone know anything about pumpkin, or pumkin as it pertains to yeast overgrowth? 

  • melissa

    bruno pit-

    It would seem that something in the Epigen does not agree with him. I had this problem before with one of my dobes(not with Epigen) Since several fecals were negative, I knew it was the food. It could be that you are overfeeding him for that brand, or perhaps mixing it with something else will help. Cutting back portion size for my girl worked for the stool, but she thinned out, hence the mixing which works fine.

  • bruno pit

    I would also like to add that he does not have diarhea. It is not what I would call loose stool, it contains no mucous or anything. It really is just soft stool. Thanks.

  • Bruno Pit

    I’m sorry, I meant to say that his stools have never even been 1/4 of the size of the ones he is doing now. That’s how huge they are.

  • Bruno Pit

    I’m sorry, I meant to say that his stools have never even been 1/4 of the size of the ones he is doing now. That’s how huge they are.

  • Bruno Pit

    I love Wysong Epigen because it is the only food that keeps my dog’s allergies away. My dog had lost all of the hair off of his back last year and had little scabby bumps all over him, and Epigen was a Godsend, the only, with the exception of one thing, which I will write about toward the end of my posting.  

    Anyway, after my dog seemed to recover from his allergies, not more bumps, hair grew back, etc., I slowly started implementing new foods back in to see what the allergy was, and he seemed to tolerate Nutro Beef and Brown rice very well, execpt for the soft stool thing. So then I switched him to their Chicken formula. I know he’s not allergic to chicken because I was giving him regular Epigen with no problems, but after switching him to the Nutro chicken, he started itching again.  So then I was going to try the Nature’s Variety Beef and Rice, but he REFUSED to eat it. But then he refused to eat the first two either. So strange. He was eating them with no problem before.  Makes me wonder if a food recall is coming, because my dog has never been a picky eater.  Anyway… I had all 3 of the above brands down at one time in 3 different bowls. He would smell each, and then turn his nose up to them one by one.  I  had a new, sealed bag of Epigen left over from when I used to feed that to him, so for kicks, I went and got that and when I put that down, he went nuts and scarfed it all down and then searched frantically for more! lolSo I have put in a new order to get him back on the Epigen (what choice did he give me, really!) But, it is right now ony day 2 of him eating the Epigen, and already, the reason I took him off of it in the first place is back.  It makes him do the BIGGEST poops ever, I mean HUGE, and they are soft in consistency and extremely stinky. He never does poops even 1/2 this size on ANY of the other foods I’ve given him (which are supposed to be less in quaility). I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? 

    I thought that the better a food the smaller, firmer and less smelly the stools?

    I really appreciate any feedback relating to this exact issue. Thanks so much!

  • Bruno Pit

    I love Wysong Epigen because it is the only food that keeps my dog’s allergies away. My dog had lost all of the hair off of his back last year and had little scabby bumps all over him, and Epigen was a Godsend, the only, with the exception of one thing, which I will write about toward the end of my posting.  

    Anyway, after my dog seemed to recover from his allergies, not more bumps, hair grew back, etc., I slowly started implementing new foods back in to see what the allergy was, and he seemed to tolerate Nutro Beef and Brown rice very well, execpt for the soft stool thing. So then I switched him to their Chicken formula. I know he’s not allergic to chicken because I was giving him regular Epigen with no problems, but after switching him to the Nutro chicken, he started itching again.  So then I was going to try the Nature’s Variety Beef and Rice, but he REFUSED to eat it. But then he refused to eat the first two either. So strange. He was eating them with no problem before.  Makes me wonder if a food recall is coming, because my dog has never been a picky eater.  Anyway… I had all 3 of the above brands down at one time in 3 different bowls. He would smell each, and then turn his nose up to them one by one.  I  had a new, sealed bag of Epigen left over from when I used to feed that to him, so for kicks, I went and got that and when I put that down, he went nuts and scarfed it all down and then searched frantically for more! lolSo I have put in a new order to get him back on the Epigen (what choice did he give me, really!) But, it is right now ony day 2 of him eating the Epigen, and already, the reason I took him off of it in the first place is back.  It makes him do the BIGGEST poops ever, I mean HUGE, and they are soft in consistency and extremely stinky. He never does poops even 1/2 this size on ANY of the other foods I’ve given him (which are supposed to be less in quaility). I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this? 

    I thought that the better a food the smaller, firmer and less smelly the stools?

    I really appreciate any feedback relating to this exact issue. Thanks so much!

  • guest

    Although this is a dog food forum, my daughter fed her cat Epigen, which is also described as a cat food. She had very good results, as previous to this her cat was regularly vomiting on other premium brands, such as Wellness Core and canned EVO cat food.
     I have not had problems with Wysong’s optimal nutrition, which I feed to three dogs, and my daughter feeds to her dog.
    We do change up the dog food brands between three different companies. Thank you for this dog food comparison, as I have to find companies which keep pea products out of the food. It causes bad gas in my boxer and pittie mix dogs. Looks like I may be able to add a few more brands to the rotation after analyzing the ingredients list.
    Thank you 

  • guest

    Peas in dog food cause my two dogs (boxer and pittie mix) to have horrible gas

  • GSDgirl

    Thanks MILLIONS everyone!!! I’ll give this all a whirl and see if I can’t get these dogs well! Ill let you know what happens.
    Ever so Grateful!

  • Toxed2loss

    I pulled this off the net from a raw feeder…

    Kicking Portion Distortion

    Not sure about your dog’s appropriate feeding portion? 2-3% of total body weight is appropriate for most dogs. Very young dogs may need a bit more, while older or inactive dogs require less.
    To calculate, multiply his weight, in pounds, by 16 to get his total body weight in ounces. Feed him 2-3% of that weight, daily. For example, if your dog weighs 50 pounds…

    50 lb. x 16 oz. = 800 oz. (total body weight in ounces)

    800 oz. x .02 = 16 oz. (total daily minimum food weight)

    OR

    800 oz. x .03 = 24 oz. (total daily maximum food weight)

    You may choose to divide your dog’s daily food into two feedings, or you may want to stick with one daily meal. Whatever your dog is accustomed to is fine.

    Or, you may choose to count calories…

    Dogs that weigh-in at less than 20 pounds generally require 40 calories per pound per day. For instance, your 12 pound Yorkie will require approximately 480 calories per day (12 lb. x 40 cal. = 480 cal. per day).

    Dogs that tip the scales at over 100 pounds usually need about 15 calories per pound of body weight, per day. For example, a 120 pound Great Dane will need roughly 1800 calories per day (120 lb. x 15 cal. = 1800 cal. per day).

    On average, dogs require about 25 calories per pound of body weight, per day. If in any doubt, less is always more. Moderate canine body weight has proven to extend the lives of our best friends. And who doesn’t want even just one more day?

  • Toxed2loss

    I feed raw+, and include great life grain & potato free buffalo in the rotation. We raise grass fed beef and lamb, and my husband hunts and fishes, so we also have deer, elk, & salmon. I throw in chicken when it’s on sale. They get the wings, backs, necks etc. I also have hens, so free range eggs… I use mercola’s dog enzymes & probiotics, with cooked veggies and alfalfa or parsley. I’ve fed NV chicken and Evanger’s, but wasn’t completely happy with either.

    You can see there’s a wide variety in feeding. GFETE

  • GSDgirl

    Thanks Sandy and Toxed! I feel like I’m starting to see light!!
    Now how much should I feed (per day) a 1 yr old shepherd who weighs 60 lbs and is extremely (I’m serious) under weight? He needs to weigh at least 10 lbs more than that and the female although she’s much smaller she needs to gain about that much also. Honestly it almost hurts to look at them. :( I don’t want to over feed but also I want them to get what they need.

  • sandy

    I use all flavors of Brothers and Great Life GF Salmon and Buffalo.  I feed raw chicken so I try not to buy chicken kibble much. I also feed Natures Variety Raw and Primal Raw in different proteins.  Right now it’s Brothers food for breakfast, Great Life for dinner unless it’s a raw day.  I frequently mix kibbles too – like 2 in one container, but have slowed that down because my dogs are now used to so many different foods that they can have one brand this meal and another brand for another meal.  In the beginning I would have 2 or 3 foods together and when one would run out, I would mix in a different food so the dogs would not need to transition since only 1/3 of the food mix was new.

  • GSDgirl

    My husband and I talked it over and decided that the extra money would be worth it if we can get this whole thing figured out.
    Do you all feed the same thing all the time or do you rotate kibbles? I plan to continue adding some raw meat in as I’ve been doing. I have found that I can get chicken leg quarters very reasonably.

  • sandy
  • Toxed2loss

    I only like 2. I use great life Grain & potato free. I love the quality ingredients and care that Richard puts into Brother’s. Those are the only 2 I’d recommend.

  • GSDgirl

    I saw that and didn’t like it! =( any other suggestion?

  • Toxed2loss

    I agree with Sandy on the canola and legumes. I also noticed that both have natural flavor. One is “natural chicken flavor.” But it amount to the same thing. Sorry :- {

  • sandy

    The reason I would chose Back to Basics over Earthborn Great Plains is:  Back to Basics uses tapioca as their binder versus Earthborn looks like they use peas more than tapioca as their binder.  Peas being a legume. And Earthborn uses canola oil which is not preferred (for me).  If you’re a rotational feeder then using Earthborn now and then would be ok, but not all the time because legumes and canola have their drawbacks too.

  • Toxed2loss

    You’re welcome GSDgirl!! I knew I missed some MSG pseudonyms, so I checked Jack and Adrienne Samuels list at truthinlabeling(dot)org. Here it is (hope it’s not too much info!):

    Glutamic acid (E 620)2,
    Glutamate (E 620)
    Monosodium glutamate (E 621)
    Monopotassium glutamate (E 622)
    Calcium glutamate (E 623)
    Monoammonium glutamate (E 624)
    Magnesium glutamate (E 625)
    Natrium glutamate
    Yeast extract
    Anything “hydrolyzed”
    Any “hydrolyzed protein”
    Calcium caseinate,
    Sodium caseinate
    Yeast food,
    Yeast nutrient
    Autolyzed yeast
    Gelatin
    Textured protein
    Soy protein,
    soy protein concentrate
    Soy protein isolate
    Whey protein,
    whey protein concentrate
    Whey protein isolate
    Anything “…protein”
    Carrageenan (E 407)
    Bouillon and broth Stock
    Any “flavors” or “flavoring”
    Maltodextrin
    Citric acid,
    Citrate (E 330)
    Anything “ultra-pasteurized”
    Barley malt
    Pectin (E 440)
    Protease
    Anything “enzyme modified”
    Anything containing “enzymes”
    Malt extract
    Soy sauce
    Soy sauce extract
    Anything “protein fortified”
    Anything “fermented”
    Seasonings

    The following are processed free glutamic acid to serve as MSG- reaction triggers in HIGHLY SENSITIVE people (or pets):
    Corn starch
    Corn syrup
    Modified food starch
    Lipolyzed butter fat
    Dextrose
    Rice syrup
    Brown rice syrup
    Milk powder
    Reduced fat milk (skim; 1%; 2%)
    most things low fat or no fat
    anything Enriched
    anything Vitamin enriched

    So that’s their list. The ones that more commonly trigger reactions are at the top, the ones that trigger reactions in more sensitive people (and dogs) are at the bottom.

  • GSDgirl

    Toxed, Thanks a million for all the info!!!

  • GSDgirl

    Well I my husband had to go to town this evening so I had him pick up some fresh garlic. :) one more question on dog food. Is Back to Basics turkey or Earthborn Holistic Great Plains Feast Grain Free a better choice? Or neither? Sorry I’m so slow to catch on. seems like a person cant absorb all the info the first time around. O well I’ll keep trying.

  • Toxed2loss

    Thanks John! I’ve put him on my reading list, right behind Shawna’s favorite!!! God Bless you, too and I hope you continue to get better and better!!!!

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi Donna,
    I bought this cute little blue glass spritzer bottle, I think it’s about 1/2 cup. I put water in and added a teaspoon of mint oil soap. I’m so sensitive that I was afraid to try the hemp one, LOL I didn’t need to add any reactions. GFETE

    It doubles as a “hand wash” when camping or on the road. I also clean my dogs ears with it. Gets rid of mites and keeps fleas from hiding there, as well as keeping the ear canal from drying out like chemical treatments. ;-)

  • Toxed2loss

    Myra,
    The garlic will take care of all parasites… You can add puréed pumpkin. My dogs love the stuff!! Shawna told me about it’s benefits, let’s have her tell it, I’ll flub it up! LOL

    MSG is Monosodium Glutamate. It was discovered by the Japanese and added to WWII rations. Our boys discovered that their rations tasted much better and the market was on. It is an amino acid that is required by the body in teensy trace amounts. You’ve heard how too much vitamin A can cause poisoning? Well, it’s like that. We were designed to need and utilized very little. When food manufacturers discovered that it made bad food taste good and it increased sales, they substituted it for real food ingredients. You can find the whole story on truthinlabeling(dot)org. What it really is, is an excitatory neurotoxin that causes brain cells and neural synapses to fire so rapidly that they burn out and die. It is addictive. The more you eat, the more you crave. You can read Dr. Russel Blaylock’s book, “Excitotoxins, the Taste That Kills” if you want the full deal.

    Shawna gave you the run down on what to avoid, already: broth, natural flavors, maltodextrin, yeast, barley malt, dextrose, citric acid, hydrolized anything, processed corn & wheat proteins, soy,….

    I look for products that contain real food ingredients, that are minimally processed, with no “additive” ingredients. And I learn the names of nutrients like vitamins and probiotics (like cobalamin is vitamin B12, and acidophilus is a probiotic).

    Thanks for the sympathy, ladies!! I’m so looking forward to adding that one to my list of remediated problems. GFETE

    Shawna, love, right back,at you!!! You complete me!!! GFETE :-D

  • John

    Toxed…….

    God bless you. You have had to climb mountains, and have become an erudite seeker of  knowledge in the process. After reading your post (1;30 pm), I’m flabbergasted. You would absolutely love the Gary Null books. Hes a phD , not a proponent of conventional medicine. My story pales compared to yours, but I got answers and solutions, from Null’s books, that doctors could not give. I to believe in alternative medicine. Be well.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=536478630 Donna Frano

    What are your portions for the mint oil soap mix?  Water to soap?  And is it the straight peppermint or the peppermint-hemp?  Thanks.

  • http://www.adomesticfriend.com/ Sharon Ours

    Hi
    I think you would find it would make a big difference in your dogs if you would like to give it a try.  You can try it for 30 days and if for any reason you don’t like it contact the company and send the unused portion back.  They will give you a refund less S&H.  Talking about garlic I order garlic and some other things from http://www.springtimeinc.com they handle things for dogs, horses and people.  If you would like to try a sample I would be happy to send you some to try.
    Sharon

  • GSDgirl

    Toxed, how do I make sure to avoid the exitotoxins in dog food? And what exactly is MSG? I have to agree with Shawna that sounds awful!

    Sharon I’m looking for a grain and potato free food so am afraid the FRR wouldn’t be what I’m looking for. I will ask my vet about Whipworms tho!

  • Shawna

    Wow!!!  That must be horrible Toxed!!!

    I add a drop of oregano to my “toothpaste” off an on.  I use baking soda and diluted food grade hydrogen peroxide. 

    This is verging on abuse but I was sooooo mad at Mimi for eating poo (and then licking the grandkids) one day that I cleaned her mouth out with oregano oil (just a few drops) after the poo eating..  She snorted and huffed for darn near 10 minutes.  LOL — my daughter and I used to put three or four drops under our tongues and see who could hold it in our mouths the longest :)… 

    Hey Toxed, I love you too!!  I’m so thankful we met and were able to maintain a cyber (and beyond) friendship.  You complete me!!!  GFETE :)

  • GSDgirl

    All my dogs love eggs and will eat them raw shell and all. I usually mush the shell up a bit for them. I currently buy organic eggs but I know of some friends who are planning to sell farm raised eggs this next spring/summer so will buy from them when they have them. I had thought too that as I upgraded dog foods that they wouldn’t eat as much but they are so painfully thin that I couldn’t stand seeing them so hungry. For several days I fed them about what the bag said but it just wasn’t enough even with the chicken thighs and hamburger that I would add in every couple days.

  • http://www.adomesticfriend.com/ Sharon Ours

    HI
    I have a German Sheperd and also sell FRR dog & cat food.  I sold food to two different ladies with Sheperds that they couldn’t get weight on them.  With the FRR they are now looking great.  It doesn’t take nearly as much food.  I have Great Pyrenees ??? and Mastiffs on the food that doesn’t eat that much of this food and they are looking great too.  Also the other year my sheperd had diarreha and I couldn’t figure out why took a stool sample in and it came back neg.  Took her in the following week since she was no better.  They found she had Whip worms.  Email me or call I would like to try to help you.  304 472 6006 304 613 9088 or [email protected]

  • Toxed2loss

    I agree with Shawna’s statement. Especially as to avoiding sources of excitotoxins. They’ll ramp up the metabolism, so they are burning calories faster (until they reach burn out) and MSG stimulates appetite, so they always feel starving…

  • Shawna

    GSDgirl ~~ if you have access to farm raised eggs they are a GREAT and inexpensive addition to the diet.  Good quality protein and fat (if you can get them to eat them raw or barely cooked). 

    Also, check with friends, neighbors and relatives who hunt to see if you can have any of the extras.  My boss hunts deer and will give me the heart and some of the tougher meat (thigh etc).  Adding fresh food will amp up the overall nutrition of the kibble.  Just keep the extras to no more then 20ish percent of the diet so as not to cause an imbalance in nutrients.

    I’ve found with my foster dogs that the better the quality of the food the less they need to eat.

  • Toxed2loss

    Ah Shawna! This is why I love reading your stuff!!!!!!!! And it relates to Richard’s dialog about two seemingly unrelated facts causing a leap…GFETE I’ve been struggling with vomitting at night and aspirating it and wake up choking. Well, because I can’t use conventional tooth paste, or see the dental hygienist, I have been spritzing my mouth with water and a bit of oil of oregano, lately. It prevents cavities.

    I noticed that I didn’t have the vomit/reflux issue on those nights and was just wondering if that was the cause??? Then here you are with the answer!!! The trace amount of oil of oregano is helping the damaged stomach sphincter to close (seize) and keeping it closed all night. What a Godsend, you are!!!!!!!! Love you girl!!!!!!

  • GSDgirl

    Part of the reson I’m so cost conscious is because of the amounts I’m feeding. My male is still starving hungry after 5 c. of food and a half of a chicken thigh. He will eat over 9 c if I give it to him and still sniffs around to see if there another kibble or two that he missed. And like I said earlier he’s so thin you can easily see his ribs when he’s running around. The female is the same way although I don’t feed her quite as much as I do the male. Any more ideas?

  • Shawna

    Toxed is awesome isn’t she Bob :)

  • Toxed2loss

    Your welcome Bob K!

  • Toxed2loss

    I bought my garlic powder at the health food store, in bulk. It was a couple of bucks for a big bag. Much better than buying those expensive little containers! Well, I’m guessing mind you but if Shawna is using a third a clove, and 1/4 of a teaspoon is equal to 1 clove, a pinch, as a maintainance dose? Shawna, can you confirm?

  • Bob K

    Toxed2loss – Thanks for your patience and providing the details.

  • Toxed2loss

    GDSgirl,
    I had to convince my husband that the expense of 5 star dog food was worth it, so we went with the breeders recommendation of Kirkland Premium, which gets a 4 star rating here. I do like the obvious difference switching to a 5 star (great life) and raw+ diet made, but I understand cost effectiveness. One of which was a GSD cross. On the lower feed the shedding was horrible. For my other two, standard poodle and Pom, the better diet removed all the black skin, and tear standing/gooby eyes. Yes, that’s the technical term…(tongue in cheek)

    I bath all of mine in the house, hand held spray attachment…piece of cake. Since I don’t use nasty chemical laden products (which they can smell, even if “normals” can’t.) they love their baths. I used to have a German Short hair that loved it so much, that during wind storms he’d get in the shower, so I’d bath him. It soothed him. GFETE I’m serious!

  • Toxed2loss

    First I want to post this IPM for Bob K,

    This really works Bob, and is Ph.D. IPM Entomologist approved! GFETE

    IPM For Fleas & Tick Control

     I use a method that my daughter and I developed when she went off to college (with her dog) and discovered her apartment and yard were infested from the previous renter’s cat and the abundance of ferel cats that frequented her yard. My daughter is an IPM entomologist and started her professional career at age 15. Here’s what we worked out:

    The first thing to consider is breaking the flea life cycle, which is: hatch out of eggs laid in textiles or litter, feed as nymph, metamorphasize to adult, hop on dog, mate/feed, hop off, lay eggs, repeat…

    Bathing your dog regularly is a great way to interrupt the flea reproductive cycle… if they don’t reproduce, no resident fleas.

    I use a fragrance free, non toxic detergent. I am currently using naturoli’s soapnut shampoo. Its extremely mild and nourishes the skin and coat. All the pet shampoos (even the hypo-allergenic ones) at pet stores have stuff I wouldn’t use, therefore, I won’t put it on my dogs. Occassionally I use a few drops of a REPELLENT, non toxic pet shampoo along with the detergent. I use Earthypet, for the drops. I get it at http://www.allnatural.com  Its very fragrant, and more than 1 drop per small dog, 2 for med-large hurts me. I can only imagine how much it offends the dog. (For sick dogs, I’d avoid the aromatics until they recover!) One of the ways you can monitor if the VOCs are too high for your dog is, “do they rub their face on the carpet?” That indicates that it is hurting their noses. Even if you just rinse your dog with water, it will help.

    Keep in mind that your dog could still have gotten flea born diseases when you used a pesticide, as it takes a while for the resident fleas to get killed. A repellent, like lavender and rosemary oils, keeps the blood feeders away, and therefore prevents insect vectored diseases.

    When I bath my pom. I fill up the laundry sink and have her sit in it for 3-5 min. I protect the ears and nose. I also watch for fleeing fleas and squish ‘em. Make sure they pop. You will also see them swimming in the tub. Squish those too. Washing them down the drain isn’t enough. They hop back out. Also for the first several weeks, following an infestation, check your dog, down to the skin in a well lit area for fleas. Use a desk lamp. The fleas will come to the warmth. You’ll still have to comb through all her hair and examine all of her skin. If she’s picked up a tick, or cheat grass,  you will find it during this procedure. Don’t forget to squish the fleas. When you aren’t seeing them or their “dirt”, you can move your bath times to less frequently, but monitor to find the best schedule. I bath more frequently during heavy hatches. Contact your State University, Experiment Station Entomologist for the timing of the heaviest hatch(es) in your area. 

    Next: frequent laundering (weekly to every 2 weeks) of your dogs bedding, with borax as a laundry booster: 1/4 to 1/2 cup per load. Borax residues form crystals in the fabric,  which scratch through the exoskeleton and cause the adults to suffocate. I love that part! (dry on Hot) Fleas lay their eggs near where your dog habitates, in fibers: Carpet, upholstry, bedding. Flea nymphs hatch out and start feeding on what’s in their environment. Residual borax is consumed and kills the nymphs. Borax at this level is non-toxic to mammals.

    For control in carpets and upholstery, I wash them (steam clean) with borax solution. Its also a great way to get out petroleum and oil stains… as well as odors. Unless something happens, I shampoo a couple of times a year, like during major hatch cycles. (spring) and at the end of the summer to minimize the indoor population. The borax crystalizes after this too, and kills both adults and nymphs.

    So, this method kills by drowning or suffocating the adults, poisoning the nymphs, and drowning/frying the eggs. It is an intergrated, (non invasive) pest management practice or IPM. 

    There are a number of things you can do to deter mosquitos from feeding on your pet. The aromatics work by repelling, but you can use garlic, (one of Swinn’s favorites!) Or complex Bs make the blood unpalatable to insects. Get a good supplement. Healthy raw foods with lightly cooked broccoli and other cruciferous veggies (see Dr. Becker’s book for amounts) are high in sulfur, and that repels mosquitos. Tumeric and curry (garam masala) have healing properties as well as making you “not a biting insects preferred snack.”

    I also mix up a spray bottle with water and some of Dr. Bronner’s Castile, mint oil soap. It repels mosquitos. I use this as a “spray on” during peak seasons or heavy hatches. I went to the coast a few years back in May. I used this and everyone else in the campground was slapping mosquitos, regardless of “off” and deet, and I didn’t have even one, near me. It lasted all night. As you probably know mosquitos vector heartworm. So this little preventive measure goes a long way in protecting pups from heartworm. 

    Hope that helps!

  • sandy

    The container of Tone’s granulated garlic states: 1/4 tsp equals 1 medium clove.

  • sandy

    Good to know also, thanks. I havent had fresh garlic in the  house for several months.

  • GSDgirl

    So could I start with the powder then? And Toxed, did you just use like the stuff you spice foods with or was it different? And if I could start with powder how much to give them?

  • Shawna

    GSDgirl ~~ my next door neighbors elderly mother SWEARS by garlic as a mosquito repellant too.  I’ve noticed a difference for me as well.   

  • Shawna

    That’s good to know Toxed!!  Everything I read (including Dr. Becker’s recommendations) states to use fresh for the most benefit but its really good to know of your success with powder!!!

  • Toxed2loss

    Well… I used garlic powder on my sheep and it worked, real quick. From the TI stand point, the garlic needs to be cooked, or it’s too toxic, so I chose to try the powdered first. It’s What another big sheep raiser in Idaho advocates too. I went online trying to convert Shawna’s advice about garlic for dog parasites and low and behold my friend Melissa at Skyline farms treats her sheep with it and has the protocol, using powdered.

    Sheep get a variety of worms off the pasture and from the trough, including liver flukes (as big a problem and more prevalent than Heartworm is in dogs). I seem to remember she had her vet check as follow up for a while… Now it’s what she uses exclusively.

  • GSDgirl

    You know this is explaining something I have found true but was regarded with great incredulity by my family. My parents were missionaries in Malawi Africa for 7 years. During the last several years I made a point to swallow bits of garlic periodically. I never got malaria and rarely if ever got mosquito bites. Last year my husband and I went back and I had forgotten about the garlic thing. I was literally covered in mosquito bites every night and we did use a mosquito net and repellent spray!
    I will start using garlic as soon as I can purchase some. I’m still trying to figure out which dog food to go with I need one that not too costly, and is high quality grain and potato free.
    I haven’t bathed my dogs since I’m not sure when. I can’t do it in the house because we only have a small shower and it’s far too cold outside now. When I do I use a gentle oatmeal shampoo. But if someone has a better idea on that I’m open!

  • sandy

    Awesome, thanks.

  • Shawna

    PS — Toxed and I both know that some herbs etc can be toxic if used inappropriately too.  Example, undiluted oil of oregano can cause the throat to seize with resulting death.  That is why it is illegal to sell or purchase undiluted oil of oregano. 

    However, we are both more inclined (Toxed for reasons beyond her control) to put our faith in holistic approaches to health.  After I broke my foot and had the NASTY drug reaction I was reminded just why I prefer alternatives.  But, I and Toxed both know there is ALWAYS a time and a place for allopathic medicine.  It certainly can and does save lives!!!

  • Shawna

    Sandy ~~ allicin is the chemical in garlic that has many of the health benefits (especially antibacterial, viral etc).  Allicin is garlics natural pest defense.  It forms when two chemicals within the garlic react — when the garlic has been damaged (nibbled on, crushed, grated etc).  However, the allicin starts to break down after about 30 minutes and is gone not long after.

    I have seen some garlic tablets that promote themselves as containing allicin.  Plain old garlic powder (the seasing) would not have any allicin remaining though.  And, many, have added sodium if I remember correctly.

    Best to use fresh garlic in my opinion.  I buy garlic that has already been skinned from Trader Joes.  I cut a larger clove into thirds (if not using right away — I cook with garlic a lot too) and put in baby food jars with just enough added olive oil to cover all the garlic — keeps the garlic from drying out and will last in the fridge for a long time.  When I need one for the dogs I remove what I need and crush it with a spoon right in their bowl and the mix in with the food.  When I need one for the humans in the family also remove one or two chuncks and chew :)..  Even the 20 month old grand baby chews up garlic — the olive oil (if soaked long enough) cuts the bite.

  • Shawna

    Scientist and author Raymond Francis was in the same postition as Toxed.  Allopathic medicine had written him off.  He too overcame his toxic exposure and survived to author the book “Never Be Sick Again” as well as others.  He’s now an advocate of nutrition, supplements and non-toxic living which includes alternatives.

    His “Never Be Sick Again” book is one of my all time favorite reads…

  • Bob K

    Tosed2loss – I respect your opinion and extremely glad we have people who fight for the cause of better, safer environment for all living things.   Your situation is  just the kind of eye openers people and the medical community need.   While I do use frontline on the dogs I rescue in the warmer months, I hesitate to use them in winter months – No ticks and mosquitos where I live, Why would I medicate?  Another question I almost forget to ask is about the dog bathing and dog shampoos – Many people wash their dogs every week which amazes me.  And the flea and tick shampoos they often use frighten me.   You can keep the dog on the dog food rollercoaster but if you wash them with nasty chemicals – you know what that answer is.  Websites like this are a huge value to pet lovers. 

  • sandy

    Is garlic powder out of the question?  If not, what would be equal to 1/4 to 1/2 clove of fresh garlic? I guess everything useful in garlic would be inactive after processing into powder?

    The gang loved, loved, loved their turkey necks today!

  • Toxed2loss

    I’m like Shawna’s Audrey. Due to the severe pesticide poisoning, I can’t do pharmaceuticals, because all pharmaceuticals are toxic.

    Now, here’s the skinny… I’m supposed to be dead. I’ve survived multiple heart attacks, strokes, a near vegetative state, brain damage, altzheimer’s, autism, ongoing lymphoma, anemia, hemorrhage, tumors, pituitary bleeds, all of which conventional medicine treatments would have killed me. I’ve staked my life on alternative medicine and I’ve survived and am recovering, from conditions that allopathic practitioners said were terminal or unrecoverable. I didn’t just put my money were my mouth is, I put my life. So yes, you’ll get a biased viewpoint from me. GFETE

  • Shawna

    Toxed writes “Garlic can treat that. It also, in small doses, boosts the immune system.”

    She’s absolutely right here. Garlic is a prebiotic and as such “feeds” the good bacteria in the gut. A benefit of this feeding activity is that it in turn helps keep the blood clean (a process called nitrogen trapping). Cleaner blood means less work, less strain and a happier and healthier pet.

    Burdock root is considered the “blood purifyer” of the herb/alternative world. Burdock root is another, very good, source of prebiotics :)… You can buy fresh burdock root (anyone wanting to try) in the produce section at Whole Foods and grate it right into the food.

  • Toxed2loss

    So, Bob K, and anyone else out there who’s interested, here it is…

    The Natural Heartworm Prevention Program By Will Falconer, DVM © 2004 Alt4Animals.com All Rights Reserved.
    http: http://www.alt4animals.com

  • Toxed2loss

    In my opinion, yes change to Brother’s, right away. Yes add a little garlic, for the first 3 days and then once a week.

    Here’s why I’d do the change: MSG can cause diarrhea. If that’s the cause, and TOW has it. Stopping feeding it should help. Bob’s concern about parasites and Protozoa are valid. Garlic can treat that. It also, in small doses, boosts the immune system. You see parasites, etc. take over a weakened immune system. They are kept in check by healthy immune systems. That’s why we see horrible flea, tick and worm infestations in dumped or abused dogs. Their immune systems are compromised. What Richard says about intestinal health being the key to a healthy immune system is true.

    I just remembered I bought a book from a vet that treats worms, including Heartworm without Chemicals. I’ll go get it and post his site.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    I agree Shawna. That’s why it’s so important for all of us (vets, owners, reviewers, etc.) to keep an open mind and look at everything that’s available when a pet has a problem. Food. Conventional and alternative therapies. All of it. Everything.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    GSDgirl (Myra)

    In my opinion a grain and potato free food is very important – especially long term.

    Earthborn is a good choice.

  • Shawna

    Again, please know that I am not suggesting (even in my private consultations) that persons stop monthly preventatives.  However, if your dog has liver diease or kidney diease or cancer please do know that there are alternatives that can be used instead or there are detoxifying products, like milk thistle, that can be given after the preventatives to help the liver process the drugs.

    My dog was born with kindey disease.  Heartworm preventatives are not an option.  THANK GOD I knew about the alternatives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Toxed2loss

    Hi John,
    That’s o.k. :-) I’ll see you when you’re ready.

  • Toxed2loss

    I agree with Shawna about the probiotic needing to be high quality. I bought one from a local pet boutique and then read up on them and ordered the Mercola one. Much better!!!

    I got my bone meal from the pet store. I got the best that was available, tough I’m not happy with it. I’d get a bone grinder myself, and grind ours if it was affordable. Anyone find a grass fed, chemical free source of bone meal? I’d sure like to upgrade. This is a case of doing the best you can. :-}

  • Shawna

    Quoted from Dr. Goldstein (just one of many that feel this way).

    “To judge by your local veterinarian’s stern
    insistence on regular heartworm pills for your dog, you’d think we’re in the
    midst of a brutal epidemic, leaving piles of the dead in its wake. I think
    there’s an epidemic, too, but of a different sort: of disease-causing toxicity
    instilled in our pets by heartworm preventative pills.”

    and

    “Early in my career, I saw and treated hundreds of cases of heartworm disease,
    most with routine medication, yet witnessed only three deaths (the last was in
    1979). By comparison, we’re seeing cancer kill dogs on a daily basis. To my
    mind, the likelihood that toxicity from heartworm pills is contributing to the
    tremendous amount of immune suppression now
    occurring, especially in cases of liver disease and cancer, is far greater and
    more immediate than the threat of the disease they’re meant to prevent.”

  • Toxed2loss

    Bob K,
    Thank you for rescuing all those dogs!!! I can understand your frustration. I’ve lived on a farm for 25 yrs. and have rescued and rehomed countless dogs and cats. Their condition is always deplorable. Before I became TI, I used to treat them the way you do. But, what I’ve learned since then, about pesticides and pharmaceuticals, makes me cringe!!! It’s synonymous with clubbing them from one end to the other, you just can’t SEE it!!! It’s on a cellular level. And there is no reason for it.

    You don’t have to justify asking all those questions to me. I thought that was smart. It’s sad that most people don’t answer them. It would save them time and money. :-}

    I have spoken up and offered suggestions that do work, you just are unwilling to try them as you require “documentation.” Now just which pharmaceutical company do you think is going to pay for a study that will make their product obsolete? None. Are you aware that it is the chemical companies that control the publishing journals and they refuse to publish research that contraindicated their products? It’s true. So, since you have rejected it so far, my guess is that you aren’t going to accept first hand experience, despite your request for it… As I and other’s have already given many examples.

    I don’t know what else to tell you, you are well indoctrinated into the current “medical” paradigm. Haven’t you wondered why you’re seeing more cases of Heartworm and parasites?!

  • GSDgirl

    Would a grain free/ potato free food be a good move or what do you think? I noticed Sandy’s list under the Taste of the Wild review. The Earthborn one is one I had considered trying recently.

  • Shawna

    We’ve had great success with slow kill method in Nebraska.  Maybe our climate or something is different?

    Dr. Goldstein discusses it in his book “The Nature of Animal Healing” but an excert from the book can be found here  http://www.preciouspets.org/newsletters/articles/heartworm-article.htm

    Bob, I’m not suggesting anyone stop what they are doing because of the toxicity of heartworm preventions(which don’t actually “prevent”) but I am suggesting their are options for those that want or need them.  I haven’t used heartworm or flea/tick meds in over 25 years and live in a humid, hot climate sixish months out of the year.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    John

    Yep you did – but now we have clear new rules for communication on DFA thankfully (see the sidebar) for those, as Chief Whitehair refers to them, “who walk amongst us with repressed anger issues”

  • Shawna

    Bob K ~~ I didn’t say they were used to treat heartworm infected dogs. I said they killed the larvea (in vitro). However there have been reports of them killing heartworms within dogs as well.

    “Antifilarial effect of Zingiber officinale on Dirofilaria immitis.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3668217

    “Several studies support the long-practiced use of ginger to treat parasitic infections. Alcoholic extracts of ginger injected subcutaneously (100 mg/kg) in dogs infected with Dirofilaria immitis reduced microfilarial concentrations in the blood by 98%.42″ http://legacy.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/Alte/ACF2FA4.cfm&pub_id=8&article_id=93

    This paper discusses garlic and gingers effiectiveness against worms in general. http://fspublishers.org/ijab/past-issues/IJABVOL_3_NO_4/33.pdf

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    I wish I didn’t have to weigh in on this discussion, but the topic is an important one.

    There are many good points being made here regarding the use of conventional medicine versus “alternative” medicine.

    And as a survivor of life threatening heart disease, I’ve learned to look at both sources for information.

    There’s an old saying in medicine that goes something like this:

    When all you own is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    If all you know is conventional medicine, then every treatment will involve the use of standard drugs, therapies and surgeries.

    However, the opposite is true, too. If your area of expertise is alternative methods and you are passionate about alternative non-medical therapies, please consider the dangers of looking at the small potential for side effects to be enough of a reason to subject an animal or members of your family to dangerous and completely avoidable disease.

    Properly administered in the right situation, most antibiotics save lives.

    It’s easy to focus on a list of side effects and label the drugs “toxic” — when in fact those same drugs can provide life saving treatments for the majority of patients.

    Fleas are the vector between rodents and dogs for deadly diseases (like bubonic plague, tapeworm, myxomatosis, and many others).

    Heart worm is heart breaking and remains rampant. And certain anti-parasitic preventative medications are vital for their control.

    The fact that these sometimes produce side effects doesn’t make them toxic enough to overlook their important and necessary use.

    Please remember the dangers of using unreliable folk medicines and the consequences of their failures.

    A good doctor (and that means a good pet owner, too) should make certain their toolbox contains both traditional medicine as well as conventional solutions.

    Otherwise, you risk cheating your beloved pet (or your human family) out of a full and healthy life.

  • GSDgirl

    Toxed, food for thought indeed! These dogs don’t need anything to make them More hyperactive! Any other suggestions on which dog food to change to? I will have to admit this $ is an issue. :( I would like to feed Brothers but don’t see how my husband and I could swing the price… :'(‘

  • Bob K

    Shawna – The slow kill method I am familar with still uses “Poisons” but not Immiticide and is less effective with longer treatment times from the reports I read.  Yes its less expensive but often the treatment can take up to a year to work and in some cases it does not work at all.   Heartguard is a poison.    Unfortunately of the four vet practices I work with only 1 uses the alternative HW treatment and he indicates it takes at least 6 months and often a year of treatment.   

    I just spent 20 minutes looking over Dr. Goldsteins websites including Smith Ridge Veterinary Center and google searches and found nothing on this revolutionary herbal miracle cure for Heartworms you suggest.  Perhaps Dr. Goldstein needs to get published in the AVMA and Heartworm.org organizations.  Immiticide is a powerful poison with many well documented side effects that is very expensive.  I am sure the entire Vet community would welcome a proven alternative that is less expensive, fewer side effects and readily available.    Once again – please provide the documented details of this miracle cure.   

  • GSDgirl

    Thanks a million you all! I definitely have some new stuff to try now! :) I plan to order the enzymes Sandy linked to and I will probably change to a different probiotic also. Where do you get the bone meal Toxed talked about? And a few more clarifications for myself. Should I change dog food as soon as possible or what do you all think? Is the garlic something I should try now too or not? Maybe I should just go at it slowly or what do you all think? Should I try the Tylan powder? I remember now that a breeder friend recommended that also but in the midst of it all I forgot about it. Guess I just need a few more clarification to wade throng all the info you all have put on the table. Thanks a million you all! And Bob I think it’s really great what you’re doing with the rescue animals! I’m a lil tired of being this faceless GSDgirl, the name is Myra.

    Note: if anyone would know of someone looking for a GSD I’m trying to place the female spoke of earlier. Anyone know of a good place to advertise?

  • Toxed2loss

    GSDgirl,
    I checked out TOW, and the only thing on the label that stops me cold is “natural flavor.” by process it contains free glutamic acid (MSG) and Aspartic acid. MSG will cause diarrhea and both are excitotory neuro toxins, they will promote hyperactivity and aggression in some dogs. They agitate the mind. Some dogs (and people) are more sensitive. Food for thought.

  • John

    Richard….

    I missed out on all the fun.

  • Bob K

    Shawna – Please provide details where Garlic and or Ginger was used to treat heartworms successfully in infected dogs.

  • Shawna

    After re-reading your post GSDgirl something else came to mind — tryptophan.  Tryptophan is an amino acid found in proteins.  It is used by the body to make seratonin.  Seratonin is the calming and feel good hormone..  Tryptophan is damaged by heat — not sure how much is actually left in a kibbled diet??  May be enough for some dogs but not enough for others.

    Anywho, wondering if adding tryptophan or foods high in tryptophan you could help calm the dogs to some degree.  Food sources would be chicken, turkey, venison, lamb and others (beef wasn’t on the list — well “calf” liver was but otherwise no beef). 

    Apparently tryptophan can be purchased from a vet as well (called Nutricalm).  http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/tryptophan-nutricalm/page1.aspx

    http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=103

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    Hi John

    Your ears must have been burning – I was thinking of you last night and wondering how you were.

  • John

    Hi Richard….

    I did not forget the book. It will be in the mail soon.

  • John

    Hi toxed…..

    I am going to return to facebook soon. Had some problems with my PC. Sorry, I could not reply.

  • Shawna

    PS — garlic has also been shown to kill heartworm larvea.  Ginger as well.

    Not saying anyone here should rely on garlic (or ginger) for heartworm prevention or treatment (especially without the guidance of a vet) just reporting the research. :)

  • Shawna

    Toxed knows I’m a bit obsessed with garlic :)
     
    I have successfully used garlic (and sometimes other home remedies and alternatives) for the following illnesses.  Dogs — giardia, coccidia, kennel cough and intestinal worms.  Humans — ear infection, stomach flu with diarrhea as symptom, stomach flu with vomitting as symtom, sinus infection and pink eye.
     
    Garlic is so effective it actually kills MRSA the “antibiotic resistant superbug”.
     
    It DOES cause heinz body anemia but in healthy pets it takes large doses fed consequetively to cause anemia.  For dogs already anemic I would personally avoid til the anemia has been addressed.
     
    Dr. Becker discusses safe amounts based on weight of the dog with a side note for vets.
     
    “Do not feed onions to dogs or cats as it causes hemolytic anemia. Although
    garlic is in the same family, pets can ingest small amounts of garlic and reap
    huge benefits. Garlic is naturally anti-parasitic, anti-fungal and
    anti-bacterial. Garlic, in small amounts, is a wonderful addition to
    your pet’s diet. Fresh
    garlic should always be used, giving cats and small dogs ¼ to ½ clove/day,
    medium dogs a ½ to 1 clove daily and big dogs 1–1½ cloves daily. Onion,
    a relative of garlic, produces anemia in pets and should not be fed.

    *Additional
    info for vets: Onion toxicity is caused by the
    metabolite alkaloid n-propyl disulphide which inhibits normal enzyme
    activity in red blood cells and causes them to denature, producing Heinz body
    anemia. Garlic is metabolized to allyl propyl disulfide, which does not inhibit
    red blood cell enzyme activity unless consumed in massive quantities(4). ”  http://www.drkarenbecker.com/nutrition/raw_food_diets.htm

  • Shawna

    Hey Bob K ~~ I commend you for your work with the rescue group!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I work with Boston Terrier and Papillon rescue and it can be heartbreaking to deal with the damaged dogs.  Nebraska (my State) is a puppy mill state so we get lots of retired breed dogs.  Very damaged both emotionally and physically..  :(  YET, people adopt them.  Even the worst of the worst!!  Renews my faith in humanity every time…

    Have you heard of the slow kill method of treating heartworm?  In cases that aren’t severe it can be far less dangerous and traumatic for the dog and is way less expensive.  Vets around here recommend it for rescues and many of the local rescues have had excellent success.

    Heartworm are dependant on a bacterial tag along called wolbachia.  If an antibiotic (tetracycline (sp?) I think it is) is given it kills the wolbachia preventing add’l baby heartworms.  Also prevents the dog from being able to infect other dogs.  Once the wolbachia are gone Heartguard (the preventative) can be given routinely to kill off the adults.

    And, well known and respected vet and author, Dr. Martin Goldstein has successfully treated heartworm infections with herbs and vitamins.

    Thanks again for what you do for the dogs!!!!!!!!!

  • Shawna

    I’m with Toxed on the kibble recommendations..  These two either do or don’t add things that the others do making them a cut above in my opinion (and Toxed as well of course :)..

    Brother’s has added probiotics and enzymes as well.  For your pups I would still add a supplemental source til the diarrhea and weight issues are under control though.  Sandy linked to a REALLY good enzyme product (and the vet I most admire :).  Her idea about coconut oil is really good too…  If you are not an online shopper you can take the info from the product page on Mercola and look for something similar locally.

    I know you give a probiotic now but I want to reiterate that it needs to be HIGH quality.  Most probiotics only have one to three different strains of good bacteria and yeast.  Yet there are 14 “known” to inhabit a normal, healthy dogs digestive tract.  All 14 have a purpose by supplementing only a few you can throw of the entire balance.  I don’t know what each strain does but some have a direct impact on the immune sytems by “priming” the white blood cells called neutrophils.  Neutrophils are usually the first on the scene when an invader gets in the blood.  Some probiotics fight bad bacteria and yeast.  Some digest proteins and carbs.  Some keep the colon wall clean and healthy etc etc etc.. 

    There are only two probiotics on the market (that I am aware of) that I personally would use.  One is called Primal Defense made by Garden of Life.  The other is designed specifically for pets and is on Mercola Healthy Pets (same place as the enzyme Sandy linked to).  I’m kinda anal about probiotics though :) hee hee hee

  • Shawna

    LOL Toxed :)

    Bone meal is a source of fiber so definitely would work.  Once in a while as a medicinal diarrhea treatment shouldn’t be any problem but I wouldn’t give routinely as the calcium to phosphorus ratio would screw up the entire balance of whatever diet is being fed.

  • melissa

    GSDgirl-

    YOur dogs seem to have a similar problem to what one of ours did(rescue) No matter what we did, the stinky loose stool persisted, and metronidazole only worked while he was on it. A course of Tylan powder(very small amount) for several weeks did the trick-He has been med free and stinky loose stool free for well over a year no matter what we feed him. Its almost as if the system needed to be “rested” via the Tylan.

    I can tell you Probiotics, metron, bland diets etc all did not work. Good luck

  • Bob K

    Toxed2loss and GSD girl.  I live in the Chicago area and work with a rescue group for the last several years and have personally fostered 42 dogs.  I often see the unwanted, neglected and abused.   I have worked with four different vet practices and 9 vets. Our rescue alone has had more dogs this past year with heartworms than the last 5 years combined at a cost of $21,000.  Heartworms and Lymes disease are preventable. 

    When people ask for ideas I freely provide a few suggestions that I have seen work firsthand and recommended by multiple vets.  Certainly there are other options and alternatives.   I read on this site just about every day someones dog who has diarrhea and they have never tested the dog properly for various parasites.  They tried many foods without success yet they can’t tell your exactly what brand and formulas they tried or how they transitioned the dog to a new food.  In the 42 dogs I have had, several that were treated for parasites I have not had 1 with diarrhea when the food was properly transitioned and Flagyl was used if needed for a week at most.  We use one brand of dog food that is rated 4 stars.

     I feel sorry for both the owners and dogs who suffer and often spend a ton of money guessing on a solution to a problem without a proper analysis of whats going on, trying many different dog foods without proper ingredient tracking and throwing many out and the dogs have chronic diarrhea for months.  

    You have also seen me post numerous times asking the people what seems like countless questions.  these are questions they should have been asking all along along with their vets.   If you have other suggestions based on your experience and education, speak up and offer an alternative solution you have seen work. 

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    GSDgirl

    You may access the Brothers web site by clicking on my name – wasn’t sure if you knew that or not and didn’t want to leave you having to ask where to get it. We ship it free to anywhere in the continental US.

    You may also get some sample packs sent to you to do a taste test with your dog before ordering.

  • http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

    GSDgirl

    You might want to try the Brothers Red Meat formula. It has digestive enzymes and encapsulated probiotics. The normal probiotics that are sprayed on the kibble after it’s made are activated prematurely by the warmth and moisture in the kibble (10%) when being bagged and are mostly long dead by the time your dog eats the food. In the industry it’s known as “window dressing” as it looks good on the bag but is not much help to the dog.

    With the “encapsulating” of the  probiotics the probiotics are kept viable until the dog eats them.

    We recently removed the brewers yeast from the formula and added a prebiotic that is particularly effective at feeding the probiotics while not contributing much to any Candida that might be present or causing a blood sugar spike, as it is a 14 unit long polysaccharide versus the more commonly used that are 2 and 3 units long. 

    The explanation of why this is better has to do with the fact that the prebiotic is accessible only through one end or the other. By using long chain molecules the beneficial bacteria can feed slowly and they block access to the sugar from others. If, instead of a 14 unit polysaccharide, you have 7 – 2 unit polysaccharides you have 14 access points versus 2 access points which means the polysaccharide is going to feed the “bad” stuff as well as the beneficial bacteria.

    Mike P found that the new Red Meat formula caused a very firm stool in his Boxer Jubilee and I suspect it is because of increased bacterial activity which is extremely positive in every way. As long as the dog can pass the stool it is better to have a firm stool than a soft one. 80% of the dogs immune system is generated in the gut wall and one job of the beneficial bacteria is to maintain and keep the gut wall healthy and thick. 

    The more I learn about the overall health of our dogs the more I am of the opinion that as the health of the colon goes – so goes the health of the dog.

    You might want to look up “leaky gut” Online and get an idea of what can go wrong and how it can adversely affect the overall health and well-being of the dog.

      

  • GSDgirl

    I’m feeding Taste of the Wild High Prairie formula with some chicken thighs and some raw hamburger added several times a week. I thought that the bones seemed to help a bit but haven’t been sure. I would Love some input on what to feed!!!! I’ve been trying to wade thru all the different dog foods with some advice from breeder friends but it’s still hard to determine what is actually what.

  • GSDgirl

    I’m feeding Taste of the Wild High Prairie formula with some chicken thighs and some raw hamburger added several times a week. I thought that the bones seemed to help a bit but haven’t been sure. I would Love some input on what to feed!!!! I’ve been trying to wade thru all the different dog foods with some advice from breeder friends but it’s still hard to determine what is actually what.

  • Toxed2loss

    GSDgirl,
    Doesn’t sound so much like wrinkles, more like reasonable concerns. :-)

    Well, I’m now going to share something that I do, but I don’t know what Shawna will say, and she’s way better at dietary than I am. So I’ll toss it out and let’s see if she has input. GFETE heh, heh.

    When mine get a little diarrhea that there are no identifiable cause, I add a Tbl. of good quality bone meal to their feed. I usually see it if I’ve changed to a meaty bone with lots of meat and a bone they don’t chomp up right away. The bone meal slows ‘em down, and firms up the stool.

    Also, I haven’t read the ingredients on the food you’re feeding, but I’ll only recommend 2, because they don’t contain some bad ingredients that most of the others do. (you can remind me again what your feeing and I’ll give it my rating..) I feed Great Life Grain & potato free in my rotation, and would recommend Brother’s. I’d talk to Richard about which one would be best. I think the quality of his is far superior.

  • GSDgirl

    Thanks Sandy! I’ll look that up. I must say Bob I’m curious too what you do for a living. I have to agree with Toxed2loss I don’t like putting those poisons thru my pets system one bit and I think there has to be a better way to deal with this problem. I mean honestly, these animals didn’t used to have all these problems! We are responsible for many of the hereditary and immune disorders that our pets have. The problem is these things are a whole lot harder to get rid of than they are to create!! I will have to admit that I made a mistake when I bought the dogs. To put it nicely I bought them from a high volume breeder, to be realistic it was a well kept puppy mill. The females problem is made worse because of the fact that at 6 months old when I got her she had had basically no socialization. Because of that she is very high strung and hates being kenneled. The male was younger when we got him and so didn’t have the problem the female does. They are kenneled about 10 feet apart and they “amp” each other up whenever one happens to get excited. They are much calmer when separated. In all reality the female needs a home where she would be an only dog with done who had time to spend with her. I can’t give that to her and so would like to place her. However, good homes don’t seem to grow on trees… that aside I need to figure something out to get some weight on them and help them with their loose stools. Anyone have anymore light to shed on the matter after I manage to throw so more wrinkles in the whole thing?

  • Toxed2loss

    Bob K,
    Evidently you are unaware that there are much less toxic, and many non-toxic treatments for all those things, that are more affordable and just as effective. In fact many are more effective at preventing insect born diseases than poisoning the crap out of the pet to kill off a parasite that is known to be harder to kill than mammals… Poisons are not preventatives. They are way over used. Overuse leads to developed resistance. And the poisoning is escalated. No wonder why our dogs are only living 8-12 years on average, when they used to live to be 20-30 yrs. (before they were treated to monthly wormers and topical flea and tick pesticides). IPM is cheap, effective and easy.

    All those poisons you advocate come with a very steep price tag! They damage organs and immune systems, even if you don’t see outward signs until something (seemingly unrelated) goes wrong.

    Come out of hiding Bob, what do you do for a living? Where have you seen these dogs that are so flea & tick infested, with Lyme disease, etc, & die from heart worm? You whip out those poison recommendations like a cowboy with a 6 shooter, on poker night in a spaghetti western…

    I’ve shared my credentials; I’ve put them out here, so people know where I’m coming from. I’m a Toxic Injury Consultant, and I am certified by the CDC in many aspects of poisoning, side effects and treatments.

    How about you?

  • sandy

    How about coconut oil?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND8doiVSLDw

    And here’s some info for the digestive enzymes
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/products.aspx

  • Bob K

    Toxed2loss – A dog with continual runs is stressed.  She seems to have tried all sorts of food, remedies, additives, etc… without success.   Metronidazole is used for humans as well as dogs and has worked for me many times the past several years even when the dogs were parasite negative.  Most monthly Heartworm and parasite preventatives are poison, Frontline is poison.  Yet both compounds prevent some very serious diseases and parasites in our pets. 

    If you want a scare read about treating heartworms and Immiticide, a parasite that is usually preventable with a monthly poison.  Having seen dogs flea and tick infested ridden with lymes disease and die from heartworms, chemicals seem appropriate. Unfortunately some chemicals and poisons have value.  Often there are alternatives but usually less effective and often more expensive.   I suspect none of this is news to you.

  • Toxed2loss

    GSDgirl,
    I went through something like this with my sheep last winter. My vet prescribed that. The two that got it, got a little better, then they died. It was too toxic for their depleted systems. At my wits end I treated them the way Shawna says, with garlic. I also added in some C powder and herbals. They were completely recovered in 3 days. They haven’t relapsed. The original trigger was a summer of being downwind from GMO corn plots, and the drift compromised their immune systems so they couldn’t quite kick it and deal with it themselves. Because their systems were compromised, they tested positive for worms and bacteria. The vet thought he was doing the right thing but vets don’t get training in toxicology anymore than MDs.

  • Toxed2loss

    Bob,
    Sarcasm doesn’t become you. The point here is if those are the side effects in people, then the drug is harmful… It’s not going to matter which species it is.

    Did you miss the part where I said you won’t want to give something with known toxic side effects to a dog that is already stressed (debilitated)?

    All Meds for dogs bear a statement by the FDA stating “for use in healthy animals only.” and vets prescribe them anyway… And critters die. I’ve had it happen more than once. This drug is an anti-infective, a poison. Heck, how many people go in complaining of symptoms from one med, only to be prescribed more meds to mask the symptoms of the first, and all the while they get sicker… (that would be hundreds of million, Bob)

    Bottom line, it’s a poison. In a dog with diarrhea, anybody understanding toxicology wouldn’t want to give a poison. So I’m saying, “slow up there!” I think, since she said all the tests came back clean, that suggesting a poison as a general measure is uncalled for.

  • GSDgirl

    Sorry the dogs stools would worsen not doorway! Don’t know why that got there!

  • GSDgirl

    Hey guys! Marvelous responses everyone! I tried Metronidazole on my female and the loose stools would be slightly better and then would doorway as soon as she went off of it. It obviously wasn’t helping so we quit that. I think I used advantage on them early summer but don’t remember that that made a difference. I haven’t used it since. They are not related closely. If they are at all. I have been giving them Probios with every meal. What kind of enzyme? I haven’t tried yogurt. No lake or pond water; we hardly know what lakes and ponds are in western Ks. Have never caught them eating anything other than their food, but they may have got a bit of bird poop in their water even though I give them fresh water everyday. I have washed their pans etc out with Ivory dish soap. Haven’t ruled out gluten allergy, and what is IBD for sure? I will ask my vet about Crypto and Coccidia. Wow I’m glad you all know what you do I feel a bit over my head in info but keep it coming!!!

  • Bob K

    Toxed2loss – As you know, most prescription drugs and many over the counter drugs have side effects.  Prescription drugs and just that – prescription, taken according to the prescription for treatment of a specific condition.  I suspect half of the over the counter drugs too may have side effects for some people, that is why they are medications and not food intended for specific purpose. 

    I think most of the side effects you list are for humans.  All prescriptions should be taken with caution and if any side effects are noticed, discontinue use and contact your DR. (The same person who prescribed it)  I have never had a dog tell me he has a headache, metallic taste in his mouth or vaginal irritation dryness or discharge.  You have one special dog.

  • Toxed2loss

    Hold up on that metronidazole!!!
    A quick check for side effects shows this:

    What side effects may I notice from receiving this medicine?

    Side effects that you should report to your doctor or health care professional as soon as possible:
    allergic reactions like skin rash, itching or hives, swelling of the face, lips, or tongue
    confusion, clumsiness
    difficulty speaking
    discolored or sore mouth
    dizziness
    fever, infection
    numbness, tingling, pain or weakness in the hands or feet
    trouble passing urine or change in the amount of urine
    redness, blistering, peeling or loosening of the skin, including inside the mouth
    seizures
    unusually weak or tired
    vaginal irritation, dryness, or discharge

    Side effects that usually do not require medical attention (report to your doctor or health care professional if they continue or are bothersome):

    diarrhea
    headache
    irritability
    metallic taste
    nausea
    stomach pain or cramps
    trouble sleeping

    Are you sure you want o add all those complications to an already stressed dog? This drug is toxic.

  • Shawna

    GSDgirl ~~ great responses from everyone!!!

    In addition to what they all have suggested do consider adding a good quality enzyme and excellent quality probiotic to their meals.  Both will help with food digestion and the probiotics will help with the diarrhea.

    Also consider slippery elm which will coat, sooth and protect the digestive tract while you try to figure this out.

    One of my favorite vets recommends an easy to digest diet of lightly cooked (LEAN) turkey and pumpkin — at a 50/50 ratio for several days to a few weeks.  Rice is inflammatory and may be counter productive.  Might be useful to cut the fat out of the diet temporarily too — for a few weeks or so. 

  • Bob K

    GSDGirl – Has the vet prescribed Flagyl (Metronidazol) or Tylan Powder (Tylosin tartrate)  

  • Bob K

    GSDgirl – As others have also posted, it could be lots of things.  You mentioned you tried pumpkin, how about yogurt?  Have you tried seafood grain free kibbles?  Fecal tests are not 100% accurate due to parasite cycles,  also make sure you do Crypto and Coccidia.   Allergies?  Oh Boy – Its not easy that’s for sure, if the dog could only talk to you for a minute.
    No lake, pond or river water?   Eating sticks, bugs, mice, voles, moles?  Bird poop, Deer poop, etc…… 

  • Abobis

    GSDgirl, I have 2 GSDs (8 and 12 months) of Czech lineage.  Mine are half-sibs. Are yours related? Just wondering if there is a genetic link/predisposition. Can I assume you have ruled out Celiac disease/gluten allergy?  Sometimes it can be associated with other auto-immune conditions.  There are a number of tests for EPI, you could ask the vet if there is a follow-up test he would recommend. If things don’t resolve, I would at least consider a referral to a canine endocrinologist if you live near a large vet med center. Also, I believe IBD is not uncommon in the GSD.  I had a yellow lab with IBD, took a long time to rule out a lot of other things.

  • Toxed2loss

    GSDGirl,
    Bob’s questions are good and if all of that is clear lets push it a step further…? Bob asked about pesticides. I’m refining that question to flea and tick control and wormers. You do know that they are pesticides, right? As pesticides, they’re poisons. One of the bodies defenses for poisons I’d for the lymphatic fluid to collect it and dump it into the bowel where it is eliminated with food. If the toxic load is high, the body will kick in “diarrhea” in an effort to rid the toxins quickly, which can reabsorb through the bowel & intestinal mucosal lining. Food for thought.

    Other environmental toxins that can cause this include fragrances, like fragrance emitters, perfumes, personal care products, laundry products, etc.. Toxins in household cleaners and chemicals in treated water… (flouride, chlorine, etc.) more food for thought…
    :-}

  • GSDgirl

    Ps eyes are clear and bright. Coats could be better males looks nicer than the females. Ears show no sign of anything wrong that I can see. They drink well water (we live in the country). Pesticides there hasn’t been in the last several months. Herbicides I’m not sure. I don’t feed a lot of treats, but the male would tend to get a few more than the female since he is more my dog and the female is more my husbands. I often use their food as a treat so the amount of other treats is next to nothing.

  • GSDgirl

    Bob- I have treated for Giardiasis and have done fecal floats on them. Everything had come back clear. This is what has my vet and I so very stumped. He can’t or Hasn’t found anything medically wrong with them. When he did the fecal float he told me that there was a lot of undigested plant matter in their poop. That went for even the Siberian Husky pup that I have. The dogs are kenneld and come in the house on rotation. I don’t feed scraps from our table but will give them some raw hamburger if I’m frying some or the fat I cut off the chicken. I also feel chicken thighs and some raw hamburger in their meals every couple days. My Siberian seems to be doing good on this schedule and Siberians ante supposed to be the ones with sensitive digestive systems!! I have tried cooked chicken and rice, pumpkin and nothing seems to help. The Siberian has had some loose stools too but his seem to be getting better on this food with some raw added in. They all get a moderate amount of exercise and all have TONS of energy. The female isnt quite as energetic as the others. I can’t remember firm poop from either of the GSDs ever, but maybe I have forgotten.

  • Bob K

    GSDgirl –  The first step is a trip to the vet for a complete parasite test including: Giardia, Coddicia and Crypto.  Then a little bloodwork including a 4DX test.  What else is your dog eating and drinking?  Lake or river water,  Any pesticides or herbicides in the neighborhood?   Human Food?  treats?  Has there ever been a food that had firm poopies?   How much exercise do they get?  Are they inside or outside dogs.   How are their Coats, ears, eyes, teeth, skin?  Do they eat grass, dirt, stones, sticks, acorns etc…..  There are many questions to ask to determine the issue. 

    You can slowly transition to dozens of dog foods without success and spend a ton of money on supplements but you really need the vet to do some investigatory tests first to eliminate possible parasite and medical issues.  There also can be food allergies.  You need to keep track of exactly what brand and formulas have problems with your dogs.  Best of luck

  • GSDgirl

    Help! I own two German bloodline German Shepherds and am constantly battleing loose Smelly stools and they are both terribly thin. I thought they maybe had pancreatic exocrine insufficiency and so had them tested. Thankfully the tests came back clear. But I still dont know what the problem is. I have switched to a grain free dog food on the advice on a holistic vet about a week and a half ago. I cant tell any difference so far. I know it may take longer but if its not going to help I need to try something different. Im feeding Taste of the Wild Prairie  Formula and adding some raw meet every couple days. I supplement their diets with a bit of Missing Link, Salmon Oil, and a NuVet vitamin. My male GSD weighs 60 lbs  and his head while hes standing is almost to my waist. (im 5′ 4″) and he is huge at a year. He has a lot of growing to do yet and im quite concerned about his weight. My female is 14 or 15 months and hasnt gained any weight since May. She is much smaller in size but is still horribly skinny. I absolutely dont know what to do anymore. =(!! Any helpfull advise will be Very Much Appreciated 

  • Beth

    I do love Epigen and the Epigen 90, I mix with BARF. My dog’s poop is wonderful and his fur and body smell so good!

  • Gloria

    I, too, have seen websites claim this food a “gimmick” but to my mind those who think that way are missing the boat on Epigen. In the past, due to available technology, kibble had to be bound together using some kind of carbohydrate – grain, potato, tapioca, etc. – all of which are completely unnecessary for dogs and cats but, until now, very necessary to hold that darn little kibble together! Sure, they put the best spin on these ingredients as they could but, none the less, they were absolutely unnecessary – and in fact, some studies would say harmful – for dogs and cats. Wysong has invented (and has a patient pending) on the process that makes it possible to avoid the use of carbohydrate binders – how that can be a “gimmick” is beyond me! Let me put it this way – with all the foods on the market that are 30 percent or more carbs and carbohydrates being nothing more than sugar, do you really want 10 pounds of every 32 pound bag of dog food you buy to be sugar? Hmmmm… I sure don’t!

  • Teresa`

    I put my 3 yr old over weight border collie on this food a week ago & he has lost weight. 0.7lbs to be exact in 7 days. this is a huge break thru for us. I had tried 6 different “grain & gluten free” foods (Solid Gold sun dancer & barking at the moon, Avoderm) over a 2 month period & he gained weight on these 4-5 star products eating the same amount of calories per day. he actually gained about 2-3 lbs on these foods. I feed 610 calories a day with 1 cup frozen green beans limit his low fat snack to about 6 per day at 3.5 calories each. He still has about 4-5 lbs to lose so well see how it works long term. its only been a week on the Starch Free but so far im 100% satisfied with the out come. He maintained his weight on the Premium Edge lamb & rice but had severe dry skin to where he chewed holes in his skin from it being so dry, that was why i wanted to change foods. His dry skin has gone away with the Solid Gold & Epigen. i do notice he does chew his feet more on the Epigen than he did on the grain & gluten free foods (Solid Gold) but its been rainy & could be weather related. So I may try to mix the two once he gets to his weight goal if it continues. But I love the fact that the food is high protein low fat & low carbs & starch free. Its the perfect “diabetic” dog food. We do walk daily about 2-3 miles & do agility 1 night a week. Ive been trying for 1.5 yrs to get a few lbs off of him & this is the 1st food to do it… great product. Wysong says to rotate food. Any suggestions on what to rotate with & keep the weight off?

  • Dave M

    I am trying this kibble now in my rotation – I like the food on paper high protein low carbs. I have seen quite a few comments calling this food a gimmick on other forums but I will try it. I am waiting for my natures logic to arrive and had to buy something in the meantime. I only use kibble in am !/2 cup with canned (ziwipeak or natures logic)

  • natalie

    i figured that, i wasnt sure if i was missing it. no problem

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Natalie… Epigen 90 is already on my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog of products for review, it could be a while longer before I get to it. Thanks for the reminder.

  • natalie

    mike is epigen 90 reviewed on the site and i am missing it? or is that one you havent done?

  • http://Brotherscomplete.com Richard Darlington

    Jonathan and Jessica
    Jonathan you are correct, and right to mention that Earthborn has come out with a grain and white potato free food called Great Plains. Instinct and Evo weight managementvas well as Evo fish are also grain and white potato free. Also the Wysong EPIGEN 90 formula fits the bill. Hopefully as time goes by there will be a groundswell among consumers that will convince more manufacturers to choose to get these out of their formulas. I have some theories but must honestly say I’m not 100% certain why some starches seem to create problems more than others. It may be how they react to the lack of salivary amylase in dogs as opposed to humans who do have it but it’s just an idea with no real basis. I’ve talked to a chemist who tried to explain that grains, white potato and other starches have unique properties that alter how they react to the heat, pressure of extruding as well as digestive process above and beyond simple numbers on the glycemic index. He also thought that the lack of salivary amylase could definitely change the glycemic index values for different starches that are based onbthe human model but he didn’t presume to know how each starch would change. I have no scientific tests only trial and error but there does seem to be something about white potato that causes some dogs to react.

    We noticed an improvement in symptomsvwhenvthe first grain free foods came out but after about 6 to 12 months the symptoms began to return to many of the dogs although they were admittedly not as severe. It’s perplexing and my mind spends a good part of my day analyzing and processing ideas that might apply. For now I only have a few years of empirical evidence based on a few thousand dogs but the observations are compelling and quite convincing to those of us who have been through it all. I know it’s not an opinion shared by everyone and I can certainly understand that, but I’m only trying to share my experience and it points to the fact that most dogs seem to do better without grain or white potato. Why they do not seem to react to a starch like tapioca the way they do to white potato is a complete mystery to me at this point in time – but I hope that someday I will figure it out.

  • sandy

    Dogswell Nutrisca is also potato/grain free.

  • Jessica D.

    Oops, nevermind, I was thinking of another I think. I know Natures Variety Instinct kibble is tapioca based.

  • Jessica D.

    Fromm Grain Free surf and turf is also pea based.

  • Jonathan

    Hey, you know what other kibble is grain and potato-free? Earthborn Great Plains. The main ingredients are Bison meal, peas, tapioca, eggs, and lamb meal. Just thought I’d mention that Brothers isn’t the ONLY grain and potato-free kibble. ;-)

  • http://Brotherscomplete.com Richard Darlington

    Sharon
    I was told by the owner of the company that supplies the “encapsulated” probiotics for our Brothers food that there is a bacteria colony that lives where the stomach dumps into the small intestine and this bacteria has a tendency to foam when it comes into contact with grain or white potato. This can cause acid indigestion or burping, or even cause the dog to throw up a bit. Try switching to a raw, raw/kibble mix or a kibble that is grain and white potato free to see if it clears up. We have had literally hundreds of dogs come into our store with this complaint over the years (usually along with complaints of a sensitive stomach) that are cleared up by getting them off white potato and grain. If you mix kibble with raw then I recommend you only mix with grain free and hopefully white potato free as well. The grain/potato mixing with the raw can often cause gas but we have had good success as long as the raw is mixed with a kibble that has neither one.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Sharon… Unfortunately, due to the biological uniqueness of each pet, ikt would be impossible to predict what would be better for your dog. For more help, please check out my reviews and visit our FAQ page. Look for the topic, “Help Me Choose a Dog Food”. Or check back for a possible response from one of our other readers.

  • sharon

    I have a sweet and funny 6 month old black Goldendoodle! I have been researching dry dog foods for a couple of months – she is now on Pinnacle Duck and Potato – but burps constantly (which, although is funny may be a bad sign) and has very large stools with on and off loose stools). She has also started itching more – would a fish-based protein be better? Or chicken? She seems to have a sensitive digestive tract.

  • Heidi

    Hi ShamelessRawFoodie,

    I did, but maybe not enough. That could have definitely been my problem. I am going to try again. I am also going to look into the RAW food you mentioned. I read the blog and posted a note to the lady who wrote it. I was feeding BRAVO, but that food looks pretty darn good and more convenient that the frozen BRAVO.

    Thanks so much everyone!
    Heidi

  • ShamelessRawFoodie

    Heidi – Since you started feeding raw, did you reduce the insulin for your diabetic Westie? It seems that with a raw diet, you might need less insulin? That could be why “Feeding her only a Raw diet makes her blood sugar drop too quickly in the first three hours after injection.”

    You might want to read a similar anecdotal story referenced by another commentator today. The provided link also gives opinion about not mixing raw with kibble:
    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/raw-dog-food/#comments
    Comment by Bill Hoffman – “Gail, regarding feeding a dog with diabetes, check out the blog posted on http://www.k9natural.com. There’s a true heartwarming story about that exact subject and the process and progress made by a loving pet parent. Look long and hard for a vet that embraces raw natural feeding as an essential part of a treatment for diabetic dogs.” ##

    And, of course, a vet or someone schooled in canine nutrition could offer more insight for you.

  • sandy

    I give all 4 of my dogs their raw with a little bit of kibble together every 2nd or 3rd meal. I actually have a Prairie and Epigen mixed kibble right now. My dogs range from 3 yrs to 8 yrs with different activity levels and no one has had issues.

  • Heidi

    Hi Jessica,

    Thank you so much. If she has digestive problems after mixing the two, then I will know it’s not for her, right?

    Thanks!
    Heidi

  • Jessica D.

    Hi Heidi,

    I think it depends on each dog, but I know personally that my dog hasn’t had any issues mixing kibble with raw in the same meal, some people say you definitely shouldn’t do it while others don’t seem to have any problem with it.

  • Heidi

    Hello,

    I am interested in this food for my diabetic Westie. Feeding her only a Raw diet makes her blood sugar drop too quickly in the first three hours after injection. Even mixing in the pureed veggies did not help too much. Does anyone know if Epigen can be mixed with the Raw diet? I thought I read somewhere that kibble type foods should not be mixed with Raw.

    Thanks for any advice.

    Heidi

  • terry

    Hi Sandy,
    I would put veggies in cuisanart raw and grind well and freeze in small packages. I rotated veggies trying to use 3 at a time.
    Kale, broc, zucc, chard, carrots, brussel sprouts, green beans, asparagus… If diabetes is an issue, then I would research carb content. I would guess carrots would be high, so do more greens.
    Sweet potatoes or yams I always cook.
    A simple book: Kymythy Schultze: The Ultimate Diet.
    Not all dogs handle bones or ground bones so if you feed boneless meats you must add good calcium source.
    I get supplements from Marina Zacharias at
    http://www.naturalrearing.com
    ([email protected]
    Hope that helps,
    Terry

  • sandy

    terry,

    What kind of veggies did you use?

  • terry

    Hi All,
    Interesting read. I was just researching wysong and thus read this thread. Not sure I’ll give it a try since my girl does poorly on yogurt and chicken (fat).
    Adding my 2 cents:
    I’ve had a boxer with many mast cell tumors.
    Never had a diabetic dog.
    But, in those situations, would you consider a raw diet?
    My boxer ate only raw beef and well ground non-starchy veggies after her cancer. She lived 3 years beyond surgeon’s expectations. It’s not that hard to do if you get the right supplements. Pretty hard to find a starch-less kibble.
    Happy to add more if you wish!! terry

  • Denise

    Sorry, technical glitch. Anyway I have 2 ragdoll cats and 2 standard poodles. It would be nice to feed them all the same food instead of trying to keep it all separate. Thanks for the input.

  • Denise

    i was recently in a store in NYC that was promoting this product for cats as well. Does anyone have any comment on this, or feed it to their cats as well as their dogs? I have 2 standard poodles and 2 rag doll

  • Judy Shafer

    Hi
    I recently started Pentosan the series of injections for my dogs severe Osteo. My Vet said that the drug has had some remarkable results. More interesting for dogs with high blood sugar levels is that the drug also dramatically lowered blood sugar. The drug is made from the beech wood tree from Australia and has been used in horses for some time.

    This may be of interest for those attempting to lower their dog’s blood sugar levels.

  • Diana

    Thanks, Sandy. I will put that on the list. Living in a small AL town, I have some difficulty finding sources for recommended foods, but we have a natural health food store that carries
    most of what I need. And of course the internet provides
    mailing info.

  • sandy

    Diana,

    Why don’t you try mixing in some Epigen, it’s starch free.

  • Diana

    I think I found the best choice for my dog, given her problems of weight and yeast. Fromm’s Senior Gold.

  • Diana

    I have followed with interest comments, as am searching for
    best food for my Gracie, poodle mix. She is hypothyroid and overweight, with what has become a chronic yeast infection or
    abundance of dark wax in one ear. I see two vets: the holistic
    vet put her on grain free EVO (Innova) red meat formula small bites food to be eaten with SOJO grain-free fruit & vegetable
    dog food mix. I also use BLUE Life Protection Formula for Healthy Weight. The EVO food claims 76% protein, 23% veg. and fruit ingredients. But after reading all your thoughtful comments, I am wondering about the starch in
    the foods, especially potatoes, and how this affects yeast.
    Any suggestions welcomed.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Jessica.. Wysong Epigen 90 is already on my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog of products for review, it could be a while longer before we get to it. Thanks for taking the time to send me this suggestion.

    Mike Sagman

  • Jessica

    Epigen 90 is now out, do you plan to do a review of that as well?

  • Jenny

    Hi Mike,

    Thank you for your suggestion. I did contact Wysong. They said that the 11% fat listed on the food label is just a minimum and the product actually is 13-15% fat. They also explained the higher fats sometimes found in dog foods:

    “With that said, the higher fat levels (levels beyond what they would consume in the wild eating lean prey) recommended for cats and dogs are to counteract the unnatural low proteins and high starches in commercial foods and help decrease the risk of urolithiasis in these diets. A high quality protein food does not need high levels of fat to achieve such prevention.”

    Which seems to make sense to me. Especially since their other lower protein foods do contain a higher fat content. This seems like a really good product for my dog. Thanks for your review! I would have never known about it otherwise.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Jenny… Sure, you could add fish oil. Or you could find a food with better fat content and still low in carbs. You may wish to call Wysong and ask for their opinion.

  • Jenny

    Low carbohydrate foods has been the only thing that has worked to control my dogs bacterial skin infections and itchiness (Despite spending lots of money at the vet). Right now I am feeding a food in the 20% carb range. But this one looks even better. But I am worried about the low fat content. Do you think it is a good idea to go ahead and switch to this food and just add some extra fat, like more fish oil?

  • Debbie Lai

    Whoops, Mike I see I hadn’t responded to your latest message. Sorry, I thought I had. Thank you for the differentiation explanation. I appreciate it. Have brought the topic up on the diabetic pet list for their input between the 2 foods, Wysong and Orijen. Will follow up here when I decide which to go with and how it is working out for Neo. Thanks again, Debbie

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… Glycemic index is a measure of how quickly a given ingredient or food is absorbed into the blood stream and then subsequently raising the blood glucose (sugar) level of an animal. Glycemic load does the same thing but takes into account the amount (portion size) of that food also.

    So, a food with a high glycemic index eaten in small quantities has the same blood sugar effect as a larger portion of a low glycemic index food. Hope this helps.

  • Debbie Lai

    Hi Mike and Leanne, thank you for the comments. Our vet wanted us to feed the W/D also and we refused after researching the ingredients…horrible. Btw, Vetsulin is no longer made or sold so dogs are put on Humalin or Novolin NPH twice daily, 12 hrs apart. I subscribed to a diabetic pet list when our 1 min-pin was diagnosed in June and they ALL said their vets also push the Science Diet W/D food and feel it is mostly due to the kick backs they get for selling the brand in their office. NONE of them feed their pets the W/D food. Many chose Wellness Core Reduced Fat dry and wet foods among others. But I recently am looking for the “BEST” food to feed a diabetic pet and found the Wysong Epigen, and the fact that Orijen was just awarded the low glycemic index award for 2011 I haven’t brought it to the list yet. Mike you mentioned above that more important than the glycemic index was the glycemic load…..what is that and what is the difference between the two?
    Thanks, Debbie

  • Leanne Bertino

    Just to jump in on this discussion- I relentlessly research and try to feed the best foods for my pets. I had a little dog who became diabetic- she is now gone but was diabetic for her last four years. I did not want to feed her Hills W/D. I tried, and tried, and tried other foods. We could not control her diabetes without WD. I think it has less to do with carb percentage but more with the fact that the high fiber content moves pretty slowly through the digestive tract. This helps keep blood sugar levels stable. This diet is then matched with a brand/type of insulin that should “last” the duration of the digestion of food so the dog doesn’t go hypoglycemic. I am not a fan of any prescription diet and had Wysong or another quality manufacturer come up with a diet for diabetic dogs I certainly would have used it.

    Since this thread was originally about Epigen, I’d like to comment that I recently purchased Epigen Venison for my approximately 10 year old mixed breed dog who suffers from allergies. The food is so palatable that this not too fussy guy picked the Epigen out and left the old stuff behind. Even though I’ve been feeding it slowly to him over a period of weeks he looks better already and seems less itchy. (I do bathe him with an allergy shampoo also and add Wellactin to his food.) Forgive the gross subject matter, but his stools are small and perfectly formed “cigars”. Proof that there is little filler in this food. One advantage of trusting Wysong is that they’ve been around a long time and are arguably the first company to really come out with the kind of foods you want to feed your dog. Yes there’s Fromm and Orijen (both of what I use- I have four dogs and rotate foods) but they’re really the newer kids on the block in the super premium market. Will they be around in a few years, or will they be sold to Proctor and Gamble like Natura Pet Products? I know Wysong will not.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… Honestly, I don’t know. However, most owners of diabetic dogs spend very little time researching their options. Many tell us their vets recommend Hill’s Prescription W/D because of its high fiber. But I find it hard to believe a recipe that’s about 65% carbs could ever have a favorable glycemic index.

  • Debbie Lai

    Thanks Mike, I don’t understand why they said twice, that Wysong was not low glycemic either. I also had spoke with Wysong and told them what the GRI said. They didn’t make a comment one way or the other to defend themselves so I really was confused even more. I also noticed Orijen has russet and sweet potato….which to me means carbs. So…..which wa would you go??

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… Unfortunately, it would be impossible for me to choose one “best” food for a diabetic dog (or for non-diabetic pet either). And I very seriously doubt the Glycemic Research Institute (or any other organization) has tested every dog food out there for its glycemic character.

    However, their testing appears to be scientific and exemplary. And far superior to the “non-testing” done by this reviewer. So, GRI’s product endorsements must be treated with respect.

    One more thing. Dog food manufacturers do not post the carbohydrate content of their foods. That’s why I created our dog food dashboard you see on every review on this site. When you simply do not know a product’s glycemic index, at least a glance at our estimated carbohydrate content should help give you a reasonable “hint” at a given recipe’s comparative glycemic profile. Of course, it’s not perfect. But it beats no information at all.

    With that understanding and with our estimate of Epigen’s carbohydrate content at about 11%, it would be reasonable to consider this dog food as a potential candidate for your diabetic pet. Just the same, I would not ignore the GRI endorsement of Orijen and Merrick.

    Check with your vet to be sure. Decisions like this are critical in treating an afflicted animal.

  • Debbie Lai

    Hi Mike,
    I am just following up on the posts and I saw where you posted it was hard to believe the GRI’s response as to Wysong Epigen not being a low glycemic index product. So now I am confused. How can I get to the bottom of it is or isn’t? I am wanting to find the best dog food to feed my diabetic min-pin. BTW, I again emailed the GRI on 1/25 and here is my email and their response saying Orijen is diabetic friendly. Also on the Orijen site it shows as being dog DOG food awarded the Pet Food Of The Year by the GRI. I will paste that info below my email to them and their response:
    ORIJEN is diabetic friendly.

    —– Original Message —–
    From: Debbie Lai
    To: [email protected]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:45 PM
    Subject: question please

    I did not receive a response so I am sending again.
    Is there a dry/wet dog food, you would best recommend to feed a diabetic dog?
    I currently feed Wellness Core Reduced Fat. I asked about the Wysong brand and you told me it is not a low glycemic food.
    I was also looking into Orijen, the brand awarded recognition by your company recently.

    Thank you for your guidance.

    Mrs. Debbie Lai
    Sebring, Fl

    Here is the Orijen site and the award information:
    PET FOOD OF THE YEAR AWARD, 2010-2011
    Glycemic Research Institute of Washington DC.

    The Glycemic Research Institute in Washington, DC. selected ORIJEN from Champion Petfoods™ as the PET FOOD OF THE YEAR 2010-2011.

    The Medical Advisory Board, Senior Staff, and Associate Research Fellows of the Glycemic Research Institute® (GRI) provide Independent Pro Bono Certification for products that pass the strict GRI Protocols, by authorization of the United States government, the Canadian government and the United Kingdom government.

    The Glycemic Research Institute (GRI) conducts Independent Clinical and Analytical research on Pet Foods and Pet Treats. GRI has examined hundreds of pet foods from 2004 to the present in order to determine the healthiest overall products, focusing on anti-aging, diabetes, arthritis, glycemic, and blood glucose and insulin response, in the canine and feline.

    The Pet Food of the Year is a global award presented by the Glycemic Research Institute®, for the Best Overall Healthiest Pet Food. This year, ORIJEN was selected against all other pet foods on the market. ORIJEN pet food is manufactured and owned by Champion Petfoods LP in Alberta, Canada (ChampionPetFoods.com).

    The strict Award criteria involves in-depth analysis of the product and its suitability, based on ingredients, glycemic-response, diabetic-response, anti-aging factors, and biochemical requirements of the species.

    What are your thoughts overall now as to the best food to use for a diabetic dog?

    Thanks, Debbie

  • Jessica

    I’m having a hard time deciding between the Acana, Orijen, and Fromm, and Wysong. Does anybody have an opinion on what the optimum level of protein is for a dog? The Wysong is so much higher but I have questions about the integrity of the company based on how they handled a 2009 recall. Acana and Orijen both seem to be very good also, and I’ve heard nothing but great things about the Fromm Grain free. I’d love some feedback on thoughts on these grain free lines (wysong epigen isnt grain free). If this matters at all, I have a 13 month old 15 lb shih tzu.

  • Mike P

    Mike and Jessica , I was referring to Fromm grain free surf and turf . I see only 1 red flag . Jessica you could boost the protein with a canned topper . I probably shound not put my 2 cents in on this subject as I really don’t know what I’m talking about . Thanks to Mike and all the experts on this site I’m slowly learning .

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Mike P… Please note that 5 of these “red flags” represent the same ingredient (vegetable protein) in four different forms. Beet pulp is only “controversial” (but not a true red flag” ingredient) and wheat grass is (as I point out in the review) inadvertently mishandled by our flagging software. No matter what it may look like when first glanced, Epigen is a solid 5-star product.

  • Jessica

    It looked like most of the red flags were actually non-issues according to the later analysis, however I am still considering switching to the Fromm. I just wish the protein level was higher. My dog has a bladder infection and traces of struvite crystals and a higher protein diet is supposed to help acidify the urine which prevents the formation and gets rid of existing crystals. What I don’t know is if the protein level in the Fromm is high enough to help with that where the extra protein in the Wysong would be overkill.

  • Mike P

    Jessica , looking at the Epigen, I’m seeing 7 red flag ingedients. I use Fromms in my rotation (surf and turf) , and my dog loves it. I also emailed them about coupons and they answered me the same day , 5 bucks off ! Fromms looks like a first rate food and a first rate company …

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Jessica… The only information I have about the Wysong recall is posted on our Dog Food Recall page.

  • Jessica

    Do you have any feedback on the recall the company had in 2009 and how they handled it? From what I’ve read it was rather poor, and I’m concerned if something were to happen again we wouldn’t find out in time. I’ve got my dog switching to this food now but am considering switching to Fromm instead due to their great reputation, though this one has such a higher protein content that I was swayed to the Epigen. Now I’m second guessing myself about the decision to go with the Epigen over the Fromm Grain free Surf and Turf.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Sandy… You’re right. Since peas are legumes, this Epigen product can be considered “grain free”. I inadvertently forgot about this recipe when I was asked earlier in this thread about Epigen being grain free. Thanks for posting this note.

  • sandy

    I too have purchased Epigen Fish and it lists only pea protein, not the possible varieties that may be in the Chicken formula. I alternate between the Fish and Chicken formulas and haven’t noticed any issues with the dogs like itching, or hot spots. I use it in a mix, not by itself.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Erin… I don’t see how any dog food that lists grain protein ingredients on its label can be considered grain free. Starch free, OK. But grain free?

  • erin arvin

    hi mike, i wanted to let you know that i purchased the epigen fish and according to ingredients on the bag it is a grain free starch free food. This is the fish formula could you double check that.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Brittany… Wysong’s information looks to be based upon the pre-cooking weight of the two protein ingredients. However, our rating is based upon our good-faith estimate of the after-cooking content. Since the meat is about 70-80% water (and even though we don’t know how much moisture is in the veggie protein), it’s fairly safe to assume the veggie protein accounts for a notable amount of the protein in the finished product. As my review states, we have already taken this factor into consideration. This is still a 5-star dog food.

  • brittany

    I emailed Epigen about how much the vegetable protein contributes to the overall protein %. They said 70% is from meat, and 30% is from the vegetable protein. This info seems to suggest that the protein % is more likely in the 40’s rather than the 60’s. Not sure if this will change your rating, but I thought you might like to know :)

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Michelle… Epigen is simply starch free. It still contains the protein portion of the specific grain of each recipe. To answer your question about protein, please see our FAQ page. Look for the topic, “Dog Food Protein”.

    Unfortunately, Great Life lists its kibble ingredients in 2-separate lists. This method does not follow the typical government-regulated manner. For this reason, we cannot judge the company’s dry products at this time.

  • Michelle

    Hello, I am looking into buying a bag of Wysong Epigen for my
    1 1/2 year old Rottweiler. I have her on Dogswell Nutrisca but am looking for a lower fat food but with decent protein in it still. I am looking for a Grain Free / Potato Free starch free food. Is Epigen Grain Free or is it just starch free? I am very confused. if you go on their site the chicken formula contains potato protein, Rice protein, corn etc… but if you look at the fish formula it does not contain any of those ingredients. Is this considered a food with grains or a Grain Free Food? Also the very high protein content is concerning but I love the fact that the fat content is so low. What are your thoughts concerning the high protein levels in it and if it is necessary since I am feeding my dog a protein level of 36%.

    My last question is regarding Great Life “Rubicon” Grain-Free / Potato Free food. It’s very hard to find any reviews on this food and I was wondering what your thoughts are on it and if you could consider doing a review on it. The food does contain tapioca and I have heard people say tapioca is not good in dog food, have you heard of this and do you think it would effect my dogs health.

    Thanks so much!

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Erin… Oops. Thanks for noticing that error. Wysong Epigen is certainly not grain free. But it was improperly “tagged” when this review was recently updated. I’ve now corrected that information and the review should make more sense. Thanks for the tip.

  • erin arvin

    is this a grain free starch free food or not. if it is then why could it contain potato protein, rice protein wheat protein or corn protein. i am very confused about this.

  • Chris Wellsandt

    I am interested in Epigen for my dog (diagnosed w/Mast Cell, but removed). Thus based on my research of canine food for dogs dealing w/cancer starch free is important for a cancer diet. Txs for thorough review of grain/startch. Besides a cooked meal I want to supplement w/dehydrated commercial. This can be my answer

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Brittany… OK, thanks for the tip. I’ll get right on this news as soon as I can.

  • brittany

    Wysong has added two more formulas to their Epigen line: venison and fish. Will you add these two to your review as well? They don’t seem to have as much meat as the original chicken formula…

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… Thanks for sharing this information. However, I find GRI’s assumption that the vegetable protein used here has a high glycemic index rather difficult to believe. For proof of Wysong’s starch-free claim, simply look no further than our estimated carb content of this Epigen recipe with its extraordinarily low reading of 11%.

    NutritionalData.com reports a glycemic load of just 2 (on a scale of 0 to 250) for wheat gluten (the nutritionally closest substitute for the phrase “wheat protein” we could find). That’s pretty darn low by any measurement.

    By the way, glycemic load is a more accurate way to profile a product’s diabetes “friendliness” than even its glycemic index.

  • Debbie Lai

    Mike, I emailed the Glycemic Research Institute and here is their response about Wysong Epigen NOT BEING A LOW GLYCEMIC INDEX food they highlighted in red, which isn’t showing up in my pasted response from them below, that the POTATO, RICE, CORN AND WHEAT PROTEIN ARE VERY HIGH GLYCEMIC INGREDIENTS:
    Dear Debby,

    Their product IS NOT LOW GLYCEMIC – the WYSONG DOG FOOD contains very high glycemic ingredients – as highlighted below.

    Regards,
    Candice
    GLYCEMIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE

    Ingredients: Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken Giblets, Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Eggs, Yogurt, Flax Seed, Apple, Beet Pulp, Plums, Inulin, Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Krill Oil, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Oregano Extract, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.* (For an explanation of Epigen’s™ ingredients see below.)

    Mike I wanted to let you and others know this finding!

    Debbie

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Ron… Meat-based protein is the very essence of what we consider a high quality dog food. Not sure why you’d want to flush it all out with water. For more information about this subject, be sure to visit our FAQ page regarding the topic, “Dog Food Protein”.

  • Ron

    Hello Mike,
    The ingredients look good, but I am wondering about the protein %, have there ever been studies done on this amount of protein in a dry kibble.It seems they would have to consume
    a large amount of water to keep flushed out?

  • Debbie Lai

    Thank you Mike. That was the way I was leaning also.
    Thanks again for your site and help and the forums.

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… It’s probably OK to switch to the Epigen 60 now. That product has a high protein content with much of that protein coming from meat (although some is from the vegetable protein, too). I don’t see any advantage in waiting.

  • Debbie Lai

    Thank you Mike. I will check with the Wysong Company to see.
    I also notice on their site they are coming out with another dry kibble dog food in April 2011 with an even higher protein content. Epigen 90, the site says it will contain 90% meat and organs, but the rest of the details are not finished as yet. Now I am wondering if I should start the dogs on the Wysong Epigen with the 60% protein and transition up to the increase in the Epigen 90 when it comes out, or would it be better to wait for the new product to start them at the higher end instead??
    Thanks for your thoughts,
    Debbie

  • http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

    Hi Debbie… A low glycemic index is key with both human and canine diabetics. I don’t know the GI for Epigen. But maybe the company can supply this information. By the way, when you don’t know the GI of a dog food, it would be probably be a good idea to steer clear of dog foods with a high carb content (most but not all kibbles). Epigen has a low carb content so it might be a candidate for a diabetic diet. You may want to visit our FAQ page regarding the topic, “Diabetic Dog Foods”.

  • Debbie Lai

    So is this a good dog food for diabetic dogs? I have a 5 yr old min-pin who was diagnosed in June 2010. Vet wanted me to feed Science Diet W/D… which of course I WOULD NOT! It is a horrible food, diabetic animal or not!! I joined a diabetic pet group and many members spoke highly of a few brands, one being Wellness Core Reduced Fat. I have been feeding both my diabetic and non diabetic min-pin the dry formula mixed with Wellness Core 95% canned twice daily. They love it but if this food has a lower glycemic index (the Glycemic Index site isn’t working for me to check Wellness’s product GI), then I would gladly switch. Please give me your input on this.
    Thank you, Debbie