Orijen Puppy (Dry)

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Rating: ☆☆☆☆☆

This Review Has Been Merged with
Orijen Dog Food (Dry)

Orijen Puppy food receives the Advisor’s highest rating of 5 stars.

The Orijen Puppy product line includes two dry dog foods, each claimed to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages.

The design adheres to the company’s “biologically appropriate” high protein concept.1

The following is a list of recipes available at the time of this review:

  • Orijen Puppy (for all breeds)
  • Orijen Puppy Large Breed

Orijen Puppy Large Breed was selected to represent both products in the line for this review.

Orijen Puppy Large

Dry Dog Food

Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Protein = 42% | Fat = 18% | Carbs = 32%

Ingredients: Boneless chicken, chicken meal, chicken liver, whole herring, boneless turkey, turkey meal, turkey liver, whole eggs, boneless walleye, whole salmon, chicken heart, chicken cartilage, herring meal, salmon meal, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, chicken liver oil, sun-cured alfalfa, yams, pea fibre, chickpeas, pumpkin, butternut squash, spinach greens, carrots, red delicious apples, bartlett pears, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast

Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 6.7%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

Estimated Nutrient Content
MethodProteinFatCarbs
Guaranteed Analysis38%16%NA
Dry Matter Basis42%18%32%
Calorie Weighted Basis36%37%27%

The first ingredient in this dog food lists chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost, reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

The second ingredient is chicken meal. Chicken meal is considered a meat concentrate and contains nearly 300% more protein than fresh chicken.

The third item is salmon. Salmon is a fatty marine and freshwater fish not only high in protein but also omega 3 fatty acids, essential oils needed by every dog to sustain life.

The next two ingredients are turkey meal and herring meal, both considered protein-rich meat concentrates

By the way, we are pleased to note that, unlike many fish meals, all Orijen fish meals appear2 to be ethoxyquin-free.

The sixth ingredient is russet potato. Sometimes referred to as an Idaho potato, this is the most common type of potato grown in the United States.

Assuming they’re cooked, potatoes can be considered a gluten-free source of digestible carbohydrates. Yet with the exception of perhaps their caloric content, they’re of only modest nutritional value to a dog.

The seventh ingredient lists sweet potato. Sweet potatoes are a gluten-free source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in dietary fiber and beta carotene.

The eighth ingredient includes peas. Peas are a quality source of carbohydrates. Plus (like all legumes) they’re rich in natural fiber.

However, peas contain about 25% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

The ninth ingredient lists turkey. Turkey is considered “the clean combination of flesh and skin… derived from the parts or whole carcasses of turkey”.3

The tenth ingredient is chicken fat. Chicken fat is obtained from rendering chicken, a process similar to making soup in which the fat itself is skimmed from the surface of the liquid.

Chicken fat is high in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid essential for life. Although it doesn’t sound very appetizing, chicken fat is actually a quality ingredient.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to affect the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions

First, the manufacturer appears to have applied friendly bacteria to the surface of the kibble after cooking. These special probiotics are used to enhance a dog’s digestive and immune functions.

Next, chicory root is rich in inulin, a starch-like compound made up of repeating units of carbohydrates and found in certain roots and tubers.

Not only is inulin a natural source of soluble dietary fiber, it’s also a prebiotic used to promote the growth of healthy bacteria in a dog’s digestive tract.

Next, this recipe also contains selenium yeast. Unlike the more common inorganic form of selenium (sodium selenite), this natural yeast supplement is considered a safer anti-cancer alternative.

And lastly, this food also contains chelated minerals, minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Orijen Puppy Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Orijen Puppy appears to be an above-average kibble.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 42%, a fat level of 18% and estimated carbohydrates of about 32%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 43% and a mean fat level of 20%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 29% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 46%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Even when you consider the protein-boosting effect of the peas, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a notable amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Orijen Puppy food is a grain-free kibble using a notable amount of chicken meal as its main source of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.

If Orijen Puppy is within your budget, go ahead. Grab a bag. And take it home for your favorite baby dog. For this is one puppy food that’s truly worth the price.

Enthusiastically recommended.

Those looking for a similarly designed adult kibble from the same company may wish to visit our review of Orijen Adult dog food.

Special Alert

Rice ingredients can sometimes contain arsenic. Until the US FDA establishes safe upper levels for arsenic content, pet owners may wish to limit the total amount of rice fed in a dog's daily diet.

A Final Word

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyze each product, please read our article, "The Problem with Dog Food Reviews".

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt, consult a qualified veterinary professional for help.

In closing, we do not accept money, gifts or samples from pet food companies in exchange for special consideration in the preparation of our reviews or ratings.

To learn how we support the cost of operating this website, please visit our public Disclosure and Disclaimer page.

Have an opinion about this dog food? Or maybe the review itself? Please know we welcome your comments.

Other spellings: Origen, Orijin

Notes and Updates

01/24/2010 Original review
08/28/2010 Review updated
11/17/2010 New formula
08/17/2012 Review updated
02/17/2013 Review updated
02/17/2013 Last Update

  1. Orijen White Paper, 1/24/2010
  2. Orijen Website FAQ, 8/27/2010
  3. Adapted by the Dog Food Advisor and based upon the official definition for chicken published by the Association of American Feed Control Officials, Official Publication, 2008 Edition
  • Lara

    I highly suggest this food! Worked great for my small breed puppies. Doesn’t get much better than this dog food.

  • Lara

    That sounds normal. It takes time. Good choice, Royal Canin is not good food.

  • KVee

    My 9 m.o. pup loves Orijen (but once again she loves it all!) We got her from the pound when she was 3 m.o. started her on C&P Organix that worked well, but after educating myself about dog nutrition i realized it wasn’t the best. I then transitioned her to Wellness Puppy and that made her so gassy and she started eating her own poop (gross). I educated myself more and moved her onto Orijen Puppy. I will transition her back and forth between Orijen and Acana until she turns 2 years old when I will start feeding her homemade raw (I am still studying this topic and I am honestly afraid that I will make a mistake that will affect her development).
    Orijen has high quality ingredients and I rest at the fact that both Orijen and Acana are made by Champion Foods – a Canadian company.

  • Clove

    Hi all, I’m trying to transition my ~6 mo old Sato (PR street dog) puppy to Orijen from Royal Canin. When I first tried, yesterday, it seemed like he favored the Orijen side of the bowl over the RC side. So I started mixing them together and now he’s not really interested in eating it at all. I try to take a few kibble pieces out of each and placing them on the floor, and again, he seems to favor the Orijen over the RC, however, even with the Orijen, he seems not to trust it and may take a couple of tries before actually putting it in his mouth and chewing it. Is this normal?

  • http://www.friv2friv3friv4.com/ friv 2 friv 3 friv 4

    I have a xl pitbull he has been on orijen since he was 4 months old i
    have no problems because of the high protein his stool use to be loose
    once he got use to it now its normal and he is a muscled up stud……….

  • Nancy Mcenaney

    We have a 10 week old miniature Schnauzer that has been on Orijen puppy food for 3 weeks…nothing else! Her appetite is great as well as her digestion. Even her hair coat is exceptional…never a loose stool! Highly recommend it!

  • Pattyvaughn

    The one here with an attitude is you. I’m glad I didn’t offend you, but you sure have offended me.
    I quit my job to raise my children. I don’t have a vendetta against vets. I still work very closely with one of the vets I used to work for, and a few that I have met since.
    I have NEVER said that vets don’t know anything or even that they don’t know much. I have said that they usually don’t know much about nutrition.
    You are the only one here with a hostility problem, it’s even in your screen name.
    BTW, most people don’t know whether or not they have a good vet. You already have to have a certain amount of special knowledge to make that determination. But most people do know that you shouldn’t just believe everything you read on the internet. And nobody should take anybody’s word for anything here, nutrition isn’t rocket science, anybody can learn about it, but people do need a place to start.

  • Mad4myWesties

    There is an attitude of condescension here. Most definitely. Regardless of your knowledge, you don’t know each situation, and putting Vets down in posts as I’ve seen here repeatedly IS VERY WRONG. What gives you or your friends here the right to say that you know more and that we should listen to you? Sure, people are going to get mad at Vets. I did too, many times. They are human, but they try. I know the score. I’m not a snot nosed kid. I’ve had animals my whole life. I know a good Vet when I get one. I have one, and if someone doesn’t, they should get out there and look for one until they do, not go to a website. I came here asking for feedback about food because my Vet was closed and I needed advice that day. I said nothing disparaging about my Vet. I took bad advice from someone that ran a pet merchandise store who had a drawer full of food samples. That was MY bad. Not my Vet’s. I did not say I was offended, but I did say I was put off, and I am. When people repeatedly spout off about their history and knowledge, etc. etc. it immediately puts me off when they’re talking down about Vets in general. Sounds like you are trying to help people, almost… but most importantly it sounds like you have a vendetta against Vets. (Just saying). You used to work for one. Used to. Could say a lot. I’m sticking with our Vet. It’s taken me years to find her, and now that I got pet insurance, we’ll see if we can’t help the dogs be happier and healthier. Their problems are not caused by Food anyway, so I have learned 90% of what I needed to learn. I just don’t think you should be running down Vets here. Just because you say you know more doesn’t mean we should just believe you and throw our Vets (the experts) away. It doesn’t make you look smarter than the Vets when you do it. That was well meaning advice. I will not be back here. There is a lot of hostility coming off of a lot of regulars here that give advice. I saw that the first time I visited. A lot of what you say is lost in the translation because of that. There is no need to reply. I said what I wanted for the benefit of others here because listening to the advice here can be very dangerous. It needs to be weighed and researched. Even a Vet’s advice should be, but especially someone that just writes about it.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m sorry you were offended by my generalization. You are right that not all vets don’t know much about dog food and nutrition, but the ones that do are in the minority, by a large margin. I’m glad you have one of them, but even your own post seems to imply that this was not always the case. My vets are pretty honest about it. They often ask me about a particular food, and I don’t even work for them any more. They refer to a specialist when diet or nutrition is an issue, because only one of them has had more training in nutrition than they got in vet school or from the makers of prescription diets. And the one that got additional training was strictly for felines, but he is good with cats.
    It wasn’t condescension, BTW, it was fact. I’ve worked for about 24 vets, talked to numerous others and found out that for many of them, my nutrition training in vet tech school was exactly the same as theirs in vet school, a one semester class in small animal nutrition(all small animals lumped in the same class). That’s not much, but they have so much more that they have to learn that that is all they have time for. Just ask your own vet what he learned in school versus what he took the trouble to learn on his own. I would bet money your vet is one of the rare keepers that has learned a lot, about a lot of things on his own.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I’m sorry I felt you needed to be informed about your vet’s lack of understanding, but I will never understand how you could misconstrue that into believing I was making personal attacks on you.
    I’m sorry I felt you were being confrontational in the way you responded to me and insulted the intelligence of everyone on here.
    Considering that you have gone to everyone you could think of and said I was attacking you, I do not feel that your apology is in any way genuine, not that it matters.
    I have read and reread my comments to you and I am also sorry that I can’t find the fault in them, except that I was sarcastic in my recommendation that you go to Walmart to look for puppy food. Was that really such a terrible crime? Were you in danger of actually taking that statement seriously and doing it?
    I like helping people and I started out trying to help you, I though, but since your vet walks on water that shouldn’t have been necessary, so in the future, I’ll keep my mouth shut.

  • Pattyvaughn

    I don’t claim to know more than a vet does either about things that are actually in their purview. I can certainly put stitches in a wound, but I wouldn’t attempt surgery. I know a bit about bloodwork, but I certainly wouldn’t try to diagnose a disease. But my vet and many of the vets I have worked for in the past leave it up to others to deal with nutrition issues. They have enough on their plate, including learning what is new inveterinary medicine.
    Now. I’m done with you.

  • Pattyvaughn

    You’re absolutely right, that doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s why I never said that and in fact, I specifically said that vets must do continuing education to maintain their license.

  • Jay

    Thanks . .very helpful

  • Hound Dog Mom

    Hi Jay –

    Here’s a list of foods with calcium levels appropriate for large breed puppies:

    https://docs.google.com/a/dogfoodadvisor.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1

    There is also a thread in the forum area dedicated to large and giant breed puppy nutrition:

    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

    If the loose stool persists you may wish to try adding a spoonful on plain canned pumpkin, a multi-strain probiotic supplement and/or digestive enzymes to her meals.

    Good luck!

  • Jay

    I have an 11 week old Giant Schnauzer, eating Orijen Large Puppy food and she loves it but she has very loose stools all the time. She has been ruled out any parasites, Giardia, etc. according to vet the stool looks good so it is probably the food . .any suggestions on what we should try?

  • somebodysme

    I ask for advice at the health boards too but I never think they are more informed than the doctor would be. You can’t run to the vet or doctor every time you have an issue or a question. I often google search for information too.

  • Cyndi

    I highly doubt ANY dog does well on Iams. That “food” is crap, along with all the Purina garbage. & I’m curious to know what kind of “issues” a dog would have that is fed a raw diet, except if they have an allergy to a particular protein. My dog is on a raw diet and she’s never been healthier. Feeding raw is the best thing you can do for any dog. It’s what they thrive on & many vets don’t like it because they don’t make their money from the dog being sick like they would be from eating Iams crap or Purina garbage that most of them recommend.

  • InkedMarie

    What was condescending? You asked if you had to read all the ingredients and I answered you with a yes. It IS your responsibility. You said you wanted grainfree and said you were feeding chicken & rice. Rice is not grainfree. You said the Honest Kitchen venison. They don’t make a venison. If you have a dog with an issue & you try new foods, you need to know what you’re feeding

  • Mad4myWesties

    I don’t feel that you should be speaking disparagingly about Vets here. If someone’s Vet isn’t giving them advice that’s working, that is a case by case basis. Not all Vets are as you are describing, and I am extremely thankful for my Vet and her caring guidance regarding my dogs. Not all of their Vets have been so good. I am lucky. My Vet has not given any cortisone shots or antibiotics. She asks ME a lot of questions, as I am the one taking care of the dogs we are both trying to help have a good quality of life. I’m really put off by the condescending attitude here.

  • Mad4myWesties

    Thank you! Excellent comment!

  • Mad4myWesties

    I do not know why my note appeared in this thread. I never posted to this topic to my knowledge. I don’t have a Puppy and don’t buy Orijen. I did at one time, but not in years I’m not sure what thread my original post should have gone into, but it certainly should not have gone here. And, yes, I could have been confused about the brand name on the food that was made from Venison. I was given several samples, which only confused me more (and probably upset my dogs’ poor stomachs, as well). Anyway, I have visited the Vet again after giving chicken with rice to sort of reset my dogs’ digestion as I have often been told is good if their stomachs are not happy. She advised me what to do and I have done it, and it seems to be working beautifully. As for your reply, it was condescending, insulting, and not at all friendly. I am not an idiot. Perhaps you should ‘head over’ to wherever it is that you got that attitude and rethink your motives for being here to ‘help’ people. Talking down to them like they are fools is not helpful to anyone, especially someone that is concerned about an animal that is placed in their charge. I am very happy I have a kind, knowledgeable Vet who went to school to learn nutrition, and doesn’t make me feel stupid when I don’t always know what I’m doing. Have a great day!

  • InkedMarie

    Yes, you are supposed to look at all ingredients. Someone may recommend something but ultimately it’s your responsibility. FYI, swet potato is different than white potato. There is no venison Honest Kitchen; do you meneGrandma Lucy’s?

    Your vet said grainfree so chicken with rice is not grainfree. Head over to the formula & see the grain and whit potato free list there, as a stickie.

  • Shawna

    Good Morning Laurieangel64,

    Here’s those links we discussed yesterday.

    “A 17-Year Old Newfoundland? Discover What This Breeder Is Doing Right” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/04/05/how-a-newfoundland-pet-dog-reached-17-years.aspx

    Here’s some data about Dr. Thomason (not mentioned below – Dr. Thomason is also a breeder of Boston Terriers)
    “Jeannie Thomason CVND, is a certified animal naturopath and small animal nutritionist certified in aromatherapy with 30 years of practical experience in animal health, she has worked with animals holistically since 1984.” http://www.rawinstinctsmagazine.com/Jeannie-Thomason.html

    And Dr. Thomason’s data on raw feeding http://thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html

    Dr. Martin Goldstein is one of the most respected holistic vets around. He was featured on Oprah when she was still on the air and has a radio talk show on Martha Stewarts channel. He wrote the book “The Nature of Animal Healing”. And he is well known for his ability to save pets with cancer that others have given up on. http://www.drmarty.com/what-should-i-feed-my-pet-for-best-health/

    Nutrition author Mary Straus http://dogaware.com/about.html

    Vet and small animal nutritionist (taught clinical nutrition for 30 years) Meg Smart features an article by vet Dr. Michael Fox on her website. Dr. Fox writes

    “Obesity, metabolic syndrome, diabetes mellitus, cancer, fatty liver disease, pancreatitis, hypertension, heart and kidney disease and diet-related arthritis, irritable bowel syndrome, allergies and neurological and immune system dysfunctions are modern day health issues that people and companion animals share when their diets consist of highly processed agribusiness food industry products, byproducts and various additives.” http://www.petnutritionbysmart.blogspot.com/2012/08/michael-fox-comments-on-pet-foods.html

    There’s much more info but I don’t want to overwhelm you..

  • Mad4myWesties

    I have been feeding my dogs (West Highland Terriers, aged 8 currently) Natural Balance for years. I have always noticed that they get seasonally ‘itchy’ and figured it was environmental. Recently I was told by a person working at Top Dogs (a retail store for pets, that sells upscale dog stuff) that it was due to potatoes in their food. Curious to see if she was right, I accepted some of her samples of Artisan, Honest Kitchen, etc. and tried them. There hasn’t been enough time to observe much difference, but my Vet has agreed that grain free is the way to go, and no potatoes. My concern is, this person that gave me the samples didn’t even notice that two of them has potatoes in them. o_0 Should I read every ingredient in these foods, and which ingredients are okay and which are not? The list of additives is sooo long on all dog foods. Our dogs chew their feet so much they get raw and bloody, and I dislike spraying them with steroid solutions all the time! Should I just go back to home cooking organic chicken with vegetables and a little bit of brown rice? I’m at my wits end. They did enjoy the Venison Honest Kitchen, with no weird stuff except garlic, which I firmly believe is ok in small amounts. Anyone try Honest Kitchen with their dogs? Artisan? Curious to see what others feed their pets, and what works for the chewing. I just hate seeing them going crazy gnawing on themselves. I know it can’t make them happy feeling that way. Thanks in advance. Also, do people really argue all the time here like it appears? This is my first time, and I hope I won’t have to read threads of heated arguments between folks that disagree. Peace. :)

  • Arlette Vanarthos

    I agree Pattyvaughn, a lot of vets do not deal with the real nutrition
    whether they have a lot of their plates or do not believe in alternative
    supplements. They were trained just like regular Dr.s . Most regular
    Dr.s give meds instead of showing you healthy nutrition. I had to go to a
    nutritionist concerning some of my problems which my primary Dr. never
    dealt with. Not saying my Dr. doesn’t care but believe they do not move
    out of their box.

  • somebodysme

    I don’t have anything more to say on the subject. I’ve said what I believe to be the truth and no one is going to change what I think after having to deal with an allergic dog and the more expensive and supposedly good food I use the worse her allergies get. I think someone is selling us a line of BS and we are falling for it hook line and sinker. I didn’t start out feeling like that…I too felt that the vets didn’t know what they were talking about…now I think it’s the other way around.

  • InkedMarie

    I do not agree with you. If my vets learned something new (about nutrition), why would they be feeding and recommending Purina, SD, Royal Canin etc? They wouldn’t.

    Years back, we had a dog who was wasting away. My vet had no idea what to do for her, food wise. He said he’d try to research but really, how much time does he have? Running a practice, being there a good 10hrs a day doesnt leave time. I took it upon myself to contact Tufts and pay for a nutrition consultation for my girl.

    I still find it ironic that you’re here, asking for advice and as Patty said, giving it but then you make the comment ” “vets know nothing about nutrition”…but a bunch of people with no credentials do?” When I make a comment to you in the future, when and if you ask or offer advice, you won’t be surprised.

  • somebodysme

    Yeah they constantly work with animals so they couldn’t possibly learn anything new about animals?

    So you just said it! You know YOUR animals. The experience you have is with your handful of animals. I’m not saying you don’t know anything but years of experience working with animals day in and day out teaches you way more than reading a book written by a vet and reading internet articles.

    I’m sure I know more about my dog’s food problems than my vet knows but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know about how foods affect dogs. Here’s the thing, most vets have seen it all…you name it they’ve seen it!

    Like my acquaintance that’s been a vet tech for years says: I’ve seen dogs die from every bone you can imagine, either raw or cooked. Either choking or intestinal obstructions.

  • InkedMarie

    Hmm, my birthday is in a couple weeks, maybe I need to splurge.

  • InkedMarie

    Only if they care enough to learn. My vets are so busy running a practice and my most local one works for the shelter, does vacc clinics & runs his own farm, there doesn’t leave a whole lot of time to sit online and research. He doesn’t need to. I do my own research for my own dogs.

  • InkedMarie

    Wow what? I do my research, am constantly learning. When vets recommend inferior foods, that tells me that I DO know more than they do. I know nothing close to the ladies I mentioned but compared to the vet, yeah, I’m superior regarding nutrition.

  • laurieangel64 .

    that would be great,thanks,my large breed pet passed away at a ripe old age in 2009,then i lost a puppy to a congenital defect when he was 8months,almost 9 old.i currently have a 1&1/2 yr old (mom)peke,poodle,pom mix (dad)pure american eskimo) we recently added a companion for him,a shitzu,who has the narrow nose opening issue(is late,cant remember the technical name)and some breathing difficulties when he tries to sleep,i spend a bit of time with him laying on my chest holding my finger in his mouth to keep it open so he can breathe comfortably.this am he wanted to be on the floor,but was having trouble,so he scooted over and put my bigtoe in his mouth.he is scheduled for a consultation at cornell in a couple weeks but i have been told nutrition is extremely important for him and not to let him get anywhere near overweight or it would compound the issue.we are at a loss with him,because he is fine when hes awake and playing,is a holy terror infact.he will occasionally while awake get”gurgly”and sound congested,.then when he tries to rest he often will stand up and circle and laydown again whining/crying.and only settles down if his mouth is kept open.iam wondering after reading all the issue people are having with allergys,if food is adding to it,causing the congestion.i have had 3 pekes in past years and am very familar with snub nose issues,but this is a new one for me and a learning process.early on at about 11 weeks he ended up with an upper respiritory infection and after antibiotic did much better and seems to have improved greatly,but he also at the time when he got sick decided he didnt like the orijen anymore and gravitated toward the puppy chow(ick,i know)the woman who bred him had the litter on.i had some in the house leftover from the transistion to orijen period.i didnt want to add a hypoglycemic episode to the mix during illness so i let him eat it for a week or so and now hes back on the orijen and halo spots stew,chicken and salmon variety,and he seems to be getting worse again,whn he was almost breathing problem free.makes me wonder if the orijen puppy doesnt work for him,i will await the links.maybe raw or partial raw will help,thankyou

  • laurieangel64 .

    if i interpreted your “sarcasm”wrong and took it as a personal attack,where none was intended, i apologize.it was in replys to me so i felt it was directed at me and my competence and those of professionals i trust.iam sorry if that assumption was wrong.but please keep in mind that some folks on here,including me,who do not know you are going to take it that way,its unnecessary in this venue..i have found through years of experience that sarcasm,while it may be fun for the one dishing it out ,can be offensive to others in some situations.we are all just regular folks trying to do right by the animals we love and care for.iam open to being “wrong”and to change and isnt a forum meant for us to bounce ideas off eachother in a friendly,nonconfrontational manner?its what the guidelines say that we all agree to when we join.so again,if u feel i have in some way “violated”that i apologize

  • Shawna

    PS — Dr. Bovee also states in his article

    “Evidence that high protein diets enhance renal function in normal dogs has led to confusion among
    veterinarians who have been told for
    decades that low protein diets may be
    beneficial for kidney function.” Same link as in previous post

    The lower protein “myth” has been a really hard one for vets to give up, even some holistic vets!! But it is a myth. I’ll post some data on protein and seniors tomorrow. Now I’m REALLY off to bed :).

  • Shawna

    Oops just saw this.. Protein is broken down into amino acids. The body uses amino acids in pairs and groups. Any amino acids that are left over become urea nitrogen waste that the kidneys filter out. The urea nitrogen waste doesn’t harm the kidneys but as the disease progresses and the kidneys are unable to filter as efficiently, the waste builds up in the blood and creates a toxic affect. That is what causes the symptoms such as bad breath, vomiting, not feeling well, inappetence etc.

    The higher the quality of the protein, the less nitrogen waste (aka blood urea nitrogen or BUN) is created. Raw (and lightly cooked) animal protein is the best quality. Kibble is the worst quality. AND if probiotics and fermentable fibers (aka prebiotics) are fed it creates a “nitrogen trap” in which some of the BUN is eliminated in the feces sparing the kidneys from having to filter it and allowing a higher protein diet to be fed.

    Dr. Kronfeld did research in which he demonstrated that dogs with 75% of their kidneys gone could do well long term on a diet as high as 54% protein. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3702209

    Dr. Bovee discusses the myth regarding lower protein and kidney disease. “Results of the 10 experimental studies on dogs have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure.” http://www.dogaware.com/files/bovee.pdf

    Actually, my own holistic vet suggested lowering (not low) the protein (in a home made diet). I decided to go a different way and it has paid off in a big way for my Audrey..

    There is SO much more material on this but as mentioned in last post, it is late and time for me to say good night.. Will get back to you in the morning. :0)

  • Shawna

    Awesome!! :) I have about five in mind that I’d like to link to but it’s a bit late here in Nebraska (10:37pm) and my brain is ready for bed.. I’ll dig them up and post them in the morning… One is a human and dog chiropractor that breeds Newfies. One of his dogs (LARGE breed) lived to age 17 on a raw diet. Dr. Jeannie Thomason is a veterinary naturopath and breeds Boston Terriers. Nutritionist Mary Straus writes articles for the Whole Dog Journal as well as other publications and literature etc…

    More in the morning.. Everyone have a fantastic and restful night!!!

  • laurieangel64 .

    i consulted a holistic vet towards the end of my labs life regarding the kidney?protein debate and those(lower protein foods)were her suggestions,it seemed to make her more comfortable,she ended up dying of bone cancer a couple years later but the kidney symptoms/issues disappeared.iam confused as iam inclined to believe your info is correct.

  • laurieangel64 .

    thanks,and yes,i would be interested in those links.

  • Shawna

    Welcome :)
    I should note that not all kibbles are heated at temps high enough and/or long enough cooking times to cause the development of the amines but many are.

  • Shawna

    I go to a practice that has 5 vets on staff and I have a holistic vet as well. One vet at the practice kept suggesting that I feed my kd dog Hills kd. I asked her if she could explain to me why Hills used ethoxyquin (known to harm the liver and kidneys) in their kd food? She didn’t know what ethoxyquin was. She also didn’t know that dogs in the early stage of kd not only didn’t need lower protein but could be harmed by diets to low in protein. Yet Hills KD is recommended for ALL dogs with a kd diagnoses — across the board, no exceptions. VERY BAD.

    I asked ALL my vets about giving her probiotics and fermentable fiber as a nitrogen trap —- not one of them knew what I was talking about and one said “sure, probiotics won’t hurt”.. UMMM not only will they not hurt but they will TREMENDOUSLY help…

    They had just as much training as any other licensed vet but are woefully ignorant when it comes to diet. Of course, not every vet is “woefully ignorant” but those folks are the exception not the rule.

  • Shawna

    Hi again laurieangel64 :),

    Raw diets have multiple benefits. As mentioned before, my dog with chronic kidney disease Audrey eats a high protein raw diet. I mentioned quality of protein in my last post. When protein is cooked several of the amino acids are damaged in the cooking process — lysine as an example is damaged at quite low temperatures. When the body digests and absorbs the amino acids, some are used to make enzymes, some to build cells etc etc etc. The amino acids in higher quality proteins are utilized better by the body leaving less to become waste. It is the waste amino acids that make dogs with kidney disease feel ill.

    There are certain vitamins that are damaged by heat and minerals that are lost in processing/cooking. Holistically minded folks feel that natural vitamins are better utilized by the body than synthetic ones added back to processed and cooked foods. Plus there are some vitamins that science has not figured out how to duplicate — like the 4 vitamin e’s that are called tocotrienols.

    Raw feeders feel that the natural enzymes in raw foods help in digesting the food eaten. We feel that this improves digestion.

    There is SO much more but this is getting really long already… Here’s some data that you may find interesting. Dr. Karen Becker has a great video “The Completely Healthy Pet Food Your Vet Probably Vilifies” http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/15/raw-meat-the-best-and-healthiest-diet-for-pet-cats-and-dogs.aspx
    There are LOTS of breeders, trainers, vets and nutritionists that advocate for and feed their own pets a raw diet. I can provide you with links if you want.

  • somebodysme

    So you don’t think a vet that’s been practicing medicine for 20 years has picked up any new information along the way? That doesn’t even make any sense at all! That’s like saying an accountant that’s been working for 20 years knows less than a new graduate! HAHA! There is no substitution for experience!

  • somebodysme

    WOW!

  • somebodysme

    I don’t claim to know more than a vet does! Or act like a veterinarian is so dumb they cannot learn what’s new.

  • Shawna

    Hi laurieangel64,

    My dog Audrey, the one in my avatar, has had chronic kidney disease since birth. Symptoms of excess drinking and urinating were noticed as early as six weeks of age. She was officially diagnosed via blood work and urine specific gravity at her one year checkup. She has eaten a VERY high protein diet since she came to me at nine weeks of age. The protein amounts of her diet range between 45 and 54%.

    When a dog has kidney disease it is important to feed “high quality” protein as the higher the quality the less urea nitrogen is created. The less urea nitrogen, the more protein can be fed. Audrey eats raw animal based protein (very high quality). She’s never sick, she’s unmedicated, never has to go to the vet and is now seven and one half years old.

    There is TONS of research material proving that protein does not cause kidney disease and it doesn’t harm the kidneys once they are in disease…

  • Pattyvaughn

    I need that one!! So does Marie.

  • Melissaandcrew

    I have a bunch of different ones..I get them from “What on Earth” check out the website, lol. I have another some friends brought back from Providence Town that says ” I love dogs…Its humans that annoy me’…

  • Pattyvaughn

    Nevermind, if I try to explain this again, you will see it as me attacking you, and it doesn’t even matter. I’m not feeding your senior and you’re not feeding mine, and that is all that matters to me. I wish you and your’s the best, but I’m out of this conversation.

  • laurieangel64 .

    p.s.s. i agree,in some cases higher protein needs to be maintained to assist in healing and repair,but again,its an individual thing,each pet is not the same and health care differs according to their specific needs and conditions,except for general care and maintainance they all need to be evaluated separately and sometimes this can include some breed and/or size specific diets and treatment

  • laurieangel64 .

    i understand the difference,as far as the protein/kidney issue goes,when a diet of higher p-rotein is given the blood sugar is affected differently and produces ketones.it doesnt necassarily have to be “too high”but a regular als food in an elderly pet who is begining to show signs of aging or being somehow compromised,these higher keytones can lead to kidney damage.while reducing the protein in the food at this point isnt a magic bullet it is a small step of many small steps that can be taken as a preventative measure to possibly prolong the pets life,its like us eating alot of cooked tomatoes to prevent cancer,every little bit helps and even a slim chance it may help,and i know it wont harm,why not?p.s.my spellcheck isnt working and my 4&1/2 yr old grandson has a few of my keys “stuck”sorry for any errors:) i tend towards a more holistic natural approach as long as it does no harm and maybe can help

  • Pattyvaughn

    No, I use AAFCO because they are the ones that created the nutrient profiles that we were talking about. The minimal to live nutrient profiles. AAFCO is the authority. I can’t help that. Settling for the minimums is not what is best for our dogs. If it was, you wouldn’t be feeding Orijen.
    I’m sorry you seem to think I’m attacking you. It is not my intention. I was pointing out what I think of as an obvious fact, that your vet should know and found you attacking me and implying that because I’m not a vet, I don’t know anything. I answered that and the points you brought up. I don’t think of that as attacking.
    I agree, we will not agree. I have worked for too many vets to think that they know everything. They are people and they have to know an extreme amount of info. It is easy to decide that nutrition is not as important as some new surgical proceedure or a new antibiotic, and I would agree with them. In general, nutrition is something that everybody can understand, if they bother, so why should vets spend hours on that.

  • Pattyvaughn

    Why don’t you contact Orijen and ask them what the difference is between an ALS food and a Growth food.
    It has been proven that reducing protein for no other reason than age does not protect the kidneys and not reducing protein does not harm them. Filtering by the kidneys is a passive process, they don’t work harder, blood passes through them.
    All vets must do continuing education to keep their license, but they get to choose what they do it in. They usually go to one of the conventions and attend a few lectures. Occasionally, some companies do special seminars that they can get CE for.

  • laurieangel64 .

    why raw?what are the benefits?

  • laurieangel64 .

    oh wow,i will have to look into that,i knew about the carcinogens created when ppotatoes are processe3d into chips or fries because of the heat,regardless of fat or anything,i did not know about petfoods,thanks

  • laurieangel64 .

    lol,you have been repeatedly using the AAFCO in all of your replies to back up your info,like they are infallable and now you are saying “most figure if it meets their guidlines and hasnt caused a problem ,then its good” when you are yet again implying that vets are clueless about nutrition,well,which is it??? aafco is right about what you happen to believe,but wrong if it supports another???hmmm

  • laurieangel64 .

    that very well may be,however the petfood company DO still make that distinction,orrijen has 2(that i know of)puppy varieties,labeled as such as do several.. “good”petfood companies.they are made in canada which has higher standards than we do here in many regards,maybe that has something to do with it,i dont know.but the halo and a few others are american based companies.as far as the seniors/kidney thing ,maybe some vet practices dont do continuing education,mine does,and some of the vets are young enough to have current thinking in this area,we will just have to agree to disagree i think.higher protein foods make the kidneys work harder and produce ketones,while it may not be required in current thinking to switch to a senior food,it is advisable as a preventative measure after a certain age,especially if the pet is showing any signs of health issues.if i can get a little extra time with my dog by doing something as simple as that why wouldnt i,the belief behind that is less strain,less liklihood of kidney failure happening sooner.

  • InkedMarie

    My most local vet has been practicing for over twenty years. He recommends Purina etc so when it comes to nutrition, while I’m no Shawna, HDM, Sandy, Patty, Betsy etc, I can say that I know more than he does

  • laurieangel64 .

    thankyou,i felt like i was alone on that issue,i trust my vets guidance ,i “vetted”the practice and its staff thoroughly b4 choosing them.while it may be true in some cases in mine it is not,my vet is extremely knowledgable in the pet nutrition department and i took his advice and my pup is flourishing,the new craze over the all life stages food i think will be found a few years down the road not to be the best option for some animals.common sense tells me that it cant be right for nutrition of a few week old pup to be the same as for a elderly or even adult pet.in the human parallel you would never give an infant the same things you would an adult or even an older child.but…iam no expert iam simply a contributor who suggested the lady asking advice consult her vet if unsure and was put on the chopping block for it.i did ask on another note about raw diets and if anyone knows pros and cons etc,i was considering it as part of a rotation but am leery of raw meats/safety etc.

  • Pattyvaughn

    In the first place, a vet that went to college 20 or 30 years ago would have learned some seriously old and outdated info on nutrition, if they had a nutrition class at all, which was not necessarily the case 20 to 30 years ago. If they did have a nutrition class, it was small animal nutrition and it is a one semester class. Do you know how many different small animals are covered in small animal nutrition? A lot. Most of them have relied on Hill’s and the like for continuing education, which means the info they get is on how to utilize “prescription” diets, that’s about it. They have more important things to spend their continuing education credits on. It is an extremely rare vet that really gets into nutrition. Most figure that if it meet AAFCO guidelines and they haven’t had too many clients with problems eating it, then it’s good. If they don’t recognize all the problems that are related to food, then even that much is meaningless.

  • Pattyvaughn

    And given it to others.

  • somebodysme

    There are so many differing opinions and I just think it’s quite arrogant to think that we would know more than a vet that has gone to college for 8 or 10 years or something crazy like that and has practiced for 20 or 30 years.