[Linda C]

Hi everyone, so let me give you as short a background as I can….

Hagen is an 11 1/2 year old dog who has been generally healthy until he was diagnosed with a massive brain tumor in 08/16. He had 3 grand mal seizures in a 12 hour period which led to the scan which discovered the tumor. He was only given a few weeks to live, we opted for surgery, and it was successful. He does however have resulting left side neurological deficiencies and is on medication for the rest of his life. He is generally happy and healthy all things considered and isn’t in pain or anything like that.

He has generally always eaten Merrick Grain Free dry food, with occasional mixed-in items such as cooked chicken. A couple of weeks ago he had 4-5 days of diarrhea, it would get better, then start up again… he stopped eating and literally ate *nothing* for 3 1/2 days. He actually lost 20% of his body weight in about 7 days. He wouldn’t even drink water and we had to feed him and give him water with a syringe.

The morning that we took him to the vet he actually ate a few bites of food and drank water on his own and so we felt like he was already on the road to recovery. The vet prescribed metronidazole and FortiFlora… and recommended Science Diet Oral Care DRY food and Hill’s Prescription Diet i/d digestive care WET food. She basically said they tasted really good and would entice him to start eating again, which they did… I started giving him the dry food mixed with a spoon or so of the wet food and the FortiFlora (once a day) and he started eating again the same day….

So it has now been about 10 days, the problem is, he is eating like a beast… I tried feeding him the same quantity of this new food as I fed the Merrick and he acts like he is dying from hunger and begs for more, he paces and paws and starts whining etc… also he has started pushing the other dogs away from their food and taking it, so now I’ve had to start feeding him separately. You know how if you have a dog who loves cat food and they accidently get at the cat food and they start gobbling it down like their life depended on it because they know you are going to catch them? THAT is how he is eating.

Also, his poop is a LOT more… like, he’s eating more, but I feel like he is pooping a LOT more than what he is eating, I don’t even know if thats possible. Also, its like he is pooping all day long. Where he used to go usually twice a day like clockwork, now he goes every time he goes out. Which would be fine except………

He is now eating his poop. He never did this before. He acts like its super candy. I always pick it up, but sometimes I like to let them run around in the yard while I’m cooking etc (I can watch them from the window which overlooks the yard) so sometimes I can’t get there fast enough…

I discontinued the FortiFlora several days ago, also discontinued the metronidazole several days ago… I also stopped giving him the wet food, and now he is ONLY having the Science Diet Oral Care DRY food… I did some research on it and honestly it looks like a pretty crappy dog food… I’m not comfortable feeding him that long term… Again, he never had this crazy appetite before, and he never ate his poop before…

So, what I’m wondering is, is this related to the quality of the dry food? His poop used to be small and compact and more solid, this poop is huge and moist and just a lot more volume (sorry LOL)….

I’m going to switch him back to the Merrick Grain Free and I’m HOPING this will put things back to normal again………… Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[anonymous]

Feed him separately, all pets should be fed separately and observed during meals anyway.
Maybe feed him 3 or 4 small meals per day instead of 2. Do not free feed, in example: don’t leave food down all day. Add water. Long walks as tolerated.

Follow him around when he is due for a bowel movement, immediately scoop and discard.

He is a senior, I went through this with one of my dogs, they gradually get a form of dementia, they don’t remember when they last ate and are constantly hungry.
Talk to your vet about medication to keep him comfortable. It’s a cognitive disorder, not related to the food.
If your vet approves for him to come off the prescription diet. I recommend Zignature.
Ps: One of the side effects of anticonvulsants is increased appetite.

[Linda C]

I’m sorry that you went through that with your doggy but I really don’t think this is a cognitive disorder, it literally happened overnight when he started eating Science Diet, so unless Science Diet caused a dementia within 24 hours of being started….

I know increased appetite is a side effect of anticonvulsants but he has been on anticonvulsants since 08/16 without issue and this was an immediately noticible overnight change that started when I started feeding Science Diet.

I don’t free freed, I feed main meals twice a day (breakfast and dinner) on a schedule that they have been on for their entire life and then Hagen specifically gets medication 5x a day so the additional 3x a day he gets his medicine with a small amount of food.

I haven’t needed to feed them separately before, they have always been very well behaved, they are not territorial over food, they never tried to steal each others food before. Usually they eat their meal and retire to their beds to “clean up” once they finished eating… This stealing of other dogs food is something that stated when he started eating Science Diet.

He can’t have long walks due to his disability but I usually give him a short walk before dinner when possible. It’s not always possible in 80-90 degree temperatures due to his physical condition, some days he is able, some days he isn’t. Also I’m not sure on the correlation of long walks and overeating, seems like long walks would make him more hungry.

As far as following him around when he is due for a bowel movement, as I said, he is totally off schedule and going frequently when it isn’t expected. I do actually have to work and take care of my family as well, I need to let him have some time walking around in the yard when I’m not literally 2 feet behind him watching him in case he decides to squat… I’m doing the best that I can but he’s gone from pooping twice a day like clockwork in a predictable schedule to literally pooping 5-6 times a day.

So basically the main culprit here is the Science Diet food, all of these problems literally developed overnight when he started eating it. As of tomorrow he goes back to Merrick and hopefully these problems will resolve.

[CockalierMom]

Hi Linda, the Science Diet food is less calories per cup and a lot more fiber than Merrick so that would account for why he is hungry and pooping all the time. The one thing I would suggest is to put him back on the FortiFlora for a few days while you are changing back to Merrick. Even though he was eating Merrick before, there is a good possibility if you change the food too fast he will get diarrhea again and the FortiFlora should help prevent that. Since he is on medication for the rest of his life, it would probably help him to have the FortiFlora a couple of times a week, or give him a little kefir or yogurt a few times a week.

[pitlove]

Hi Linda-

It sounds like there is a lot of owner error at play here.

Firstly Metronidazole is an antibiotic, so you should have kept him on it for the full round. The protocols have changed and it seems 3-5 days is standard now for antibiotics. However, when you take them off an antibiotic early the body has not had a chance to completely kill off all of the bacteria that was causing the problem, so those bacteria adapt and become resistant to that antibiotic making it less effective/ineffective next time it’s needed.

Secondly, when switching to different brands of food, you need to read the recommended feeding suggestions for that particular food and not assume you can feed the exact same amount of food as your previous food. For example, Merrick Grain Free Chicken is 460 kcal/cup and 3.50% fiber, vs Science Diet Oral Care which is 275 kcal/cup and 9.5% fiber. As Cockalier Mom said, the dramatic difference in kcals and fiber accounts for his hunger and larger and more frequent bowel movements. Essentially he was being starved on accident. So no I would not say that Science Diet is the culprit here at all, nor is it a bad food.

[Susan]

Hi Linda,
is Hagen a small breed? I looked up the Hills t/d Dental Health, it’s low in protein 17.2% & fat is 16.7% & is very high in crude fiber at 10.4%, the high fiber might be making him poo more, his normally diet probably isn’t as high in fiber, I stay around 4-5%max for crude fiber, Hagen normal diet is probably higher protein diet with higher Kcals per cup then the Hills vet diet is…..or he may need to be on the Metronidazole a bit longer, 21 day course is normally the best when they have had a bout of diarrhea & a bit older… has Hagens poo’s stayed firm since stopping the Metronidazole?
I’d still be giving him a probiotic, you can give kefir instead, I give Patch the Human “Yakult” probiotic drinks, I have 1 everyday & Patch gets some as well..
Your vet should have put your boy on the Hills I/d Digestive Care dry kibble, the dry I/d Digestive formula is high in electrolytes & vitamin B, has ingredients that are suppose to improve digestion & should make Hagen’s poos smaller & less pooing times, I found the Hills I/d Digestive Care Chicken & Vegetable stew was the better out of all the I/d formula’s, there’s a few different I/d formula’s, the normal I/d Digestive Care wet tin loaf formula made Patches IBD worse, some of these vet diets don’t work for some dogs Gi problems, the Vet diets never seem to help Patches IBD, his skin problems became worse…make sure you write down the vet formula’s Hagen was put on so you remember next time if vet prescribes them again….that’s why I asked is Hagen a small breed with teeth problems for his vet to put him on the Hills T/d formula??

The Hills Metabolic & Mobility dry & wet formula would have been another good vet diet for Hagen to eat being 11 & 1/2 yrs old, the Hills Metabolic & Mobility dry & wet tin food is higher in protein & has better ingredients then the Hills T/d Dental Health formula.

Have you looked at the Canidae Pure Meadow Senior, the protein is around 28% & fat is 10.80%max, Canidae Pure formula’s are excellent for dogs with Gi problems, the Pure Meadow Senior is on page 3….
https://www.canidae.com/dog-food/products

If you Hagen keeps having Intestinal stress on & off then the “Taste Of The Wild” Sierra Mountain, Roasted Lamb formula is excellent for Gi problems, it has only 1 protein Lamb & has limited ingredients sweet potatoes, egg & potato, it has the matching wet tin food as well, Patch does excellent size poo’s & poo’s on time everyday when eating the TOTW & Canidae formula’s….

[Linda C]

@PitLuv –

I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear… He was “discontinued” on the Metronidazole because it ran out. He received the full round as prescribed by his vet.

Also, I’m sorry that you assume I was “starving” my dog “on accident” I can assure you my dog was not being starved. I was feeding him using the guidelines on the bag of dog food and also giving him even more.

Anticonvulsants such as Keppra and Phenobarbital cause excessive hunger, Hagen is on both. We can’t allow him to decide how much he is going to eat because it causes him to eat and eat without end. When he was eating Merrick he would eat the appropriate amount and be full and that was the end of it. Now that he is eating Science Diet he is eating the appropriate amount and will keep eating and eating like a bottomless pitt. To clarify, for the two feedings I fed him the same portion size of the Science Diet as he was eating of the Merrick, but when I saw that he was clearly still hungrier than usual, I checked the bag and started feeding him based on the portion size recommended by the bag. However, his preference would be to eat more than double the portion size recommended for his size and keep eating as long as he can find more.

[Linda C]

@Susan —

He is about 30 lbs… The vet “recommended” (not really prescribed) the “Science Diet Oral Care” (Not “Hill’s Prescription Diet t/d Dental Care” – I’m not sure if the nutritional values are the same)… Anyway she recommended it because they had samples in the waiting room and he was dying to eat them (like he does with cat food)… He hadn’t shown an interest in food for 3-4 days and when he got a smell of the SDOC he went nuts trying to eat them and he ate several while we were there… So, there’s no specific reason for the SDOC, other than he showed an interest in eating them when he hadn’t eaten anything for days.

His poo has been normal since the same day he started the Metronidazole but he was already feeling better before he went to the vet but we took him anyway because we didn’t want him to take a backward slide…. So normal but just a lot more in volume than before and a lot more in frequency… but not too soft or anything….

Well for now I’m just going to put him back on the Merrick since he has been eating that for years without issue and his teeth and skin are good etc. and see how it goes … He had normal poo and like clockwork regularity when eating the Merrick.

[anonymous]

Sounds like the Science diet may be too high fiber for him. I had a similar experience with my terrier when I decided to try him on Natural Balance kibble (one of the high fiber ones).
At first it agreed with him but after about 2 weeks he started having loose stools, I only tolerated it for one day, threw away the Natural Balance and put him back on Zignature.
Problem solved.
Ps: Don’t be surprised if he doesn’t have a bowel movement for a day or two. It takes a few days for the system to get back to normal.

[pitlove]

Hi Linda-

No your original post was not very clear. You did not mention that you had started feeding him the recommended feeding amount only that you were attempting to feed him the same amount of Science Diet as you were of Merrick. So yes were that true my statement that he was being unintentionally starved would still stand. Others pointed that out to you as well. It was not an attack on you, Im sorry you took it that way.

[Linda C]

Thanks anon101, I agree, I think its just too much fiber

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