[Hound Dog Mom]

Sigh…I wish this forum let you edit posts! There should be three eggs added to the chicken mix.

[shelties mom]

HDM,
Your recipes look very nutritious! May I ask where you get the Raw Glandular supplement? And where can I find sprouted seeds?

[theBCnut]

Short term, it certainly won’t matter. Long term, I would look into a whole foods supplement to add to it. If it were no more than 3 meals a week I wouldn’t worry about it, but I’m kind of a worrywort, so since it’s half the meals, I would still want a little more.

[Hound Dog Mom]

As long as they’re getting kibble for one meal I wouldn’t worry about adding anything.

[Hound Dog Mom]

The dogs are moving through the venison supply quickly so I’ve formulated their next menu. I’ve always fed my dogs so much variety and their yearly blood work has always come back normal, so I’ve never been overly concerned about nutrient profiles. This time however, I decided to actually take the time to run a full nutrient analysis on their new menu. What a headache! It took me a few days of slaving over the calculator, however I’m happy to say their menu exceeds the AAFCO nutrient profile for all life stages. My main focus for this menu was cutting costs, while maximizing nutrition and variety. Because I know this menu is “complete and balanced” and there’s a lot of variety, along with the fact that this will slice about $100 of the monthly food bill – I’ll probably be sticking with this menu for awhile. Breakfasts are divided into three equal portions (one portion for each dog) and dinners are what I would feed to each dog individually.

Mondays/Wednesdays/Fridays

Breakfast:

Makes 3 Servings:
1 lb. Ground Beef
1 lb. Green Beef Tripe
1 lb. Beef Offal Mix (Heart, Liver, Kidney, Spleen, Lungs, Trachea, Gullet)
3 eggs
3.75 oz. Tin Sardines Packed in Water
1 C. Kefir
16 oz. Frozen Broccoli, Cauliflower, Carrot Mix*
1 Bunch Fresh Parsley, Minced
2 tbs. Whole Food Supplement**
2 tbs. Ground Hemp Seed
2 tbs. Ground Sprouted Sunflower Seeds
1 tbs. Coconut Oil
1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
1/4 tsp. Himalayan Crystal Salt
3,000 mg. Cod Liver Oil
1,400 mg. Calcium Citrate
1,500 mg. Fruit Concentrate (Blueberry, Cherry, Orange, Strawberry, Raspberry, Cranberry)
1,050 mg. mg. Raw Multiple Glandular (Liver, Brain, Stomach, Kidney, Heart, Spleen, Pancreas, Duodenum, Thyroid, Thymus, Adrenal, Parotid, Pituitary)
600 IU Mixed Tocopherols and Tocotrienols

Dinner:
2 Turkey Necks (approx. 12 – 16 oz.)
6 oz. Turkey Hearts

Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday

Breakfast:

Makes 3 Servings:
12 oz. Skin-On Chicken Necks, ground
12 oz. Chicken Gizzards, ground
12 oz. Chicken Hearts, ground
12 oz. Chicken Livers, ground
10 oz. Frozen Spinach*
10 oz. Frozen Butternut Squash*
8 oz. Canned Oysters
1 C. Kefir
2 tbs. Whole Food Supplement**
2 tbs. Milled Flaxseed
2 tbs. Sprouted Pumpkin Seeds
5 Cloves Garlic, minced
1 tbs. Coconut Oil
1 tbs. Apple Cider Vinegar with Mother
1/4 tsp. Himalayan Crystal Salt
3,000 mg. Cod Liver Oil
1,500 mg. Fruit Concentrate (Blueberry, Cherry, Orange, Strawberry, Raspberry, Cranberry)
1,440 mg. Colostrum
600 IU Mixed Tocopherols and Tocotrienols

Dinner:
Pork Neck (approx. 20 oz.)

Sundays

FAST: 1 C. Broth (made with THK’s Ice Pups) with Animals’ Apawthecary Detox Tincture morning and night.

*All vegetables are cooked and pureed.
**Whole Food Supplement: 1 part kelp, 1 part spirulina, 1 part alfalfa, 1 part wheatgrass, 1 part bee pollen powder.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a501/hagelult/NutrientAnalysis_zps9f3e4b46.png

[InkedMarie]

Oh, one other question: for t least the time being, two of mine will be getting Hare Today grinds for breakfast and kibble for the second meal. For however long I do this, do they need fruits and veggies or does the kibble take care of the vitamins and minerals?

[InkedMarie]

Thank you HDM and Patty.

[theBCnut]

2 reasons

1. I like giving mine a variety of antioxidants and micronutrients. If I was feeding naturally raised whole animals all the time I probably wouldn’t worry about this, but I don’t feed whole prey very often. Blood, eyes and brains have things in them that are lacking in the rest of the body.

2. Angel, my JRT, gets REALLY hard stools and needs the additional fiber. Again, if I were feeding whole prey more often I wouldn’t have to worry about it, because hair acts like fiber.

[Hound Dog Mom]

She’s from Canada, that’s why she can’t get Hare Today.

[Hound Dog Mom]

Marie –

I’m not convinced a dog can get all the nutrients it needs on a meat/organ/bone only diet unless it were to be eating a variety of wild caught whole prey animals (which isn’t realistic). There are a lot of items that are necessary to add in order to provide vital trace nutrients. I’m actually working on posting my dogs’ latest menu plan to the recommended menus thread. I ran a full nutrient analysis on this menu plan to ensure that it conforms to the AAFCO nutrient profiles for all life stages. I’ve always been a believer that meat, organs and bone alone aren’t adequate, but after doing this analysis (and suffering the headaches that came with it lol) I’m sure of it.

[InkedMarie]

For HDM and Patty, why o you need to add veggies?

[InkedMarie]

Shin Tzu mom, by can’t you get Hare Today? Jus o to http://www.Hare-Today.com (if that’s the wrong link, google or it).

[Hound Dog Mom]

They sell rabbit heads on Hare Today, my dogs love them.

[Shihtzumom20]

Sorry HDM I guess I was writing at the same time as you, I like the idea of making my own veggie/fruit blend, that way I can cook and puree them, and see what works best for him. I never notice any other veggies (except the kelp) or fruits in the blends for that matter, so maybe they just put the carrots in raw for some reason? I will ask when I make my next order. Is the fruit concentrate something you can buy at a nutrition store?
Hehe Patty, that made me giggle! I saw a few pictures yesterday of a dog eating the head of an animal, and know I couldn’t handle that. Good thing Dawson couldn’t eat a deer or calf head!(though dont some dogs lick out the brains?)

[theBCnut]

Actually my popsicles are primarily veggies like spinach, kale, a few carrots, that sort of thing with fruit added. And yes, I believe trachea is great for teeth. The brains and eyeballs were part of a whole carcass grind, I don’t think I’m ready to hand the dogs a head and let them gnaw on it either.

[Shihtzumom20]

I wish I could get Hare Today!I will have to try giving Dawson some berries! I guess I will limit the blends that have carrots and more veggies. It seems when I see carrot fragments scooping out his food, I see them in his poop, so I guess it is something he doesn’t digest too well. They have a new blend coming out at the end of march with alpaca, pheasant and elk! Quite the interesting combination!
I love that idea of making fruit popsicles! That would be a great idea especially for the summer. Im not sure I could feed brains and eyeballs as of yet though! Are beef tracheas good for teeth cleaning? The chicken wing he had went over very well, so I will see if I can find some on sale around here. Is a chicken neck safe for a small dog to eat?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi shihtzumom –

If your dog was passing undigested veg – the veg wasn’t processed properly. Veg needs to be cooked and pureed before adding to the food. I wouldn’t advise feeding a diet without veg as it provides trace nutrients, antioxidants and fiber. You could feed the all meat variety amd prepare your own veg or use baby food (there are many “pouch” baby foods available that contain only fruit and veg). My dogs get fresh cooked and pureed veg at breakfast every day – broccoli, spinach, carrots, squash, parsley, etc. I used to add fruit occasionally, but now I just give them each a capsule of a freeze-dried fruit concentrate daily – it’s the antioxidant equivalent of a serving of fruit without the carbs and sugars.

[pugmomsandy]

This group might be able to hook you up with local resources:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier

and also the BARF yahoo group as well. Raw feeders post all the time for group orders. Someone wants to put a large HareToday order currently and last month a group ordered from Iowa (Medford Meats?)

[theBCnut]

Mine love blueberries too. I’ve also used blackberries, raspberries, and strawberries. And kiwi, cantelope, and honeydew, though in small amounts. I throw it all together in the blender, portion it out in candy molds, and freeze it. Then they each get one thrown in their bowl once a day, popsicles are delicious.

[pugmomsandy]

I’ll be adding some raw trachea and stuffed cow hooves to the dogs’ freezer! We made a group order down south from GreenTripe(dot)com. I need to go grind up that beef spleen that’s been thawing out…after I get some sleep…and that pet pantry keeps getting more stuff added to it! I need to rearrange it!

[InkedMarie]

What kind of veggies do you add? Mine love blueberries, you’d think it was a golden nugget when they see them in their bowls!

[theBCnut]

I use the Hare Today grinds and I love them, but I do pick a few good healthy veggies and blanch them then throw them in the blender to add to their grinds. I also add some kind of berries. I like the added antioxidants and my old lady JRT needs a little added insoluable fiber.

I give the whole carcass grinds to my cats and this time I ordered some for the dogs too. They get a little brain and eyeballs too this month!!

[InkedMarie]

ShihtzuMom, so glad things are going well with the raw! I’ve had that happen with a couple raws (the veggie part). I’m switching to Hare Today grinds, which had no veggies so I won’t be seeing that anymore!

[theBCnut]

Don’t worry about the veg unless you see something going on that makes you suspect a real problem. My personal feelings on adding veg and fruits is that I like knowing that mine are getting a variety of antioxidants, just in case. They may not digest every speck of it but they are getting a variety.

I feed twice a day, so 20% of that is about 3 meals, so I feed bones 3 times a week and don’t worry if they don’t eat the usual supplements in those meals. Some people feed raw meaty bones once a day and then for the other meal they make sure that all the days supplements are mixed in.

[Shihtzumom20]

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to give an update on how Dawson is doing on his “real” raw diet! So far he has loved and therefore devoured every meal he has had, which is something for him! He bounces and dances until I put his bowl down. He has loved all the proteins, so far he has had chicken, turkey, duck and beef. What a change for the better! I have also noticed that his eyes are nice and clear and he doesnt have constantly wet “cheeks”. His fur is so soft! It is so nice to have him eat with such vigour instead of throwing his meal all over the floor.
I have a question though, there are carrots in the “dinners” , but I noticed they look the same coming out as they did going in! I was thinking about changing to the 100% meat blends that dont include veggies, or should I not worry too much about carrot pieces? If I do switch to the 100% do i have to worry about more supplements, he gets krill oil, vitamin D and vitamin E. He is getting locally pre-made raw Big Country Raw. Plus I am wanting to add more things like turkey necks, and he Loves beef trachea (so far it is dehydrated), I believe that you guys said it could be up to 20% of his diet, is that right?

[Melissaandcrew]

I would isolate the dogs overnight(different rooms) to determine which one is doing the house wetting overnight-My concern is the fact that you are stating the urine is clear, which means the dog does not appear to be concentrating the urine properly and could signify a kidney issue. Take the “offending” dog to the vet once you discover which it is, and have a full chem panel and ua done.

My dogs do not eat 100 percent raw-their meals are varied, but NONE of them urinate excessively when they do get it, nor do they urinate clear.

[Melissaandcrew]

Sorry-nothing productive to add except that your comment Patty, cracked me up : )

gebo- I am one of the few that will feed a corn containing product from time to time as part of my rotation. Not that I believe its GOOD for them, but I also do not believe that its the end of the world for a small portion of their diet. I believe in hedging my bets on the current schools of thought to dog feeding. Could one version be better factually(not opinion) then another? Sure-but I do not feel that any methods provide enough definitive proof for me to subscribe to just one. Therefore, I feed grain free, grain inclusive, one that contains corn(from time to time-Pro Pac) raw, dehydrated, fresh, canned, home made etc. While not every one will agree on what method is best, understand that the majority of the regular posters have researched their choosen way/method and do not follow along blindly.

[theBCnut]

I can’t help but wonder if the particular brand you’re feeding has a lot of salt in it. None of mine increased their urination when I switched to raw. Can you do a couple of days of feeding just hamburger or something to get them off the food you’re feeding, just long enough to tell if it affects their urinating, then go back to balanced food? If you didn’t see a change quick, I wouldn’t put off having a urinalysis done.

[K-Rae]

I started my 4 dogs onto pre-made raw a month ago. They are currenty getting chicken and beef (carnivora.ca), and mixed raw bones to chew on once or twice a week. I plan on switching them onto a different brand (k9choicefoods.com) and serving beef, bison and llama. No more chicken.
My 9 yr old pom/chi and my 8 yr old german shepherd are urinating way to much. The 10 yr old westie is a little more and the 1 yr old collie/chihuahua (yes I know) is completely normal. I have asked my vet for her opinion and she says switch back to kibble and you won’t have a problem, and if it does continue bring them in. I will not switch back to kibble, and the increased urination is the ONLY negative side effect.
– not drinking any more water (actually was less then when on kibble)
– eating supper at 6:30 out several times before bed at 10-11pm and directly before bed
– urine is clear when they mess in the house over night (not sure which dog, but probably the pom)
– eating 2% of their weight (they are at perfect weight and all extremely fit)
– never had any health problems other than food allergies (why we went to raw)
– normal energy level, maybe slightly increased because they feel good
– the pom has started eating feces again (he did it when he was a pup) * I have reviewed other forums on that and will be adding enzymes as per HDM 🙂
– everyone is defecating properly as per raw, not straining and not overally chalky
I am an educated dog owner, and have done my research before switching to raw. The pre-made works best for us because we work in emergency services and really never know when we will be called out and how long we will be gone. We need to be able to have a friend stop by and feed the dogs and can’t expect someone to feed primal raw for us or spend a long amount of time preparing it. I always keep 2 days of food portioned out into sealed glass containers in the fridge.

I am curious if other people that feed raw have had this problem? Did it resolve it’s self? Is it possible it is the chicken diet? I really don’t know? I am at a loss as to why they are urinating so much. Any help is appreciated.

[Mom2Cavs]

You’re right, I do believe my vet…I switched to this holistic vet which is almost an hour away because my old vet did not diagnose one of my dogs correctly and treated me badly (which was the last straw). The old vet also knew nothing about nutrition. My new vet actually carries Nature’s Variety in his clinic, along with Steve’s Real food. He’s very knowledgable about nutrition, among other things…like the breed I own, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. And no thanks, I won’t be speaking with Bil-Jac anytime soon. I am very happy with my Acana and Primal. Thanks, though. We each have our own opinions and I just prefer to leave it at that.

[barfworld1]

Hi, So sorry to hear about your dog. There are some great tips on how to treat cancer with a natural raw diet. Check out this blog at http://www.barfworld.com/html/IPEzine/TIP_10_2013.html and please let us know if you have any questions.

[Mom2Cavs]

gebo, I’m glad Bil-Jac is working for your dog but I did do my research and don’t want to feed it to mine because of the ingredients. I also remember when I worked at a pet specialty store that carried Bil-Jac it, along with Purina products, were the foods that got “buggy” most often, so that alone will keep me from using it. I’m not saying other foods can’t get bugs in them, of course they can, but this happened often at our store and we were very careful about storing things correctly. Also, you don’t have to be rich to feed a good food. Merrick has Whole Earth Farms that is cheaper than Iams in a lot of places. Tractor Supply, and many feed stores, carries foods that are very budget friendly and have decent ratings and ingredients. I choose to feed Acana (the formulas with oats, so not grain free) and I also choose to use freeze dried raw along with some highly rated canned food. Now these foods are more expensive than alot of others, but thank God I can afford them right now. If that ever changes, I have done research on cheaper foods that are still better quality…you never know in this world what life might bring. My point is, you should feed the best food you can possibly feed within your budget that works for your dog. It is okay to read rating sites and forums for other people’s opinions but you should do your own research in the end.

[pugmomsandy]

You can type in the words “grain free” in the search box and it will bring up grain free dry and wet foods.

Also there’s an article about kibble and clean teeth:
/choosing-dog-food/dry-dog-food-cleaner-teeth/

I give the dogs rib bones and marrow bones for their teeth. Raw. If your dog will take a pill, then you can give it that way, if not then open it up and sprinkle it on the food.

[janet5130]

Hound Dog Mom – I’ve read your post many times to take it all in but i have a few questions for you. First off, aside from dry dog food being cheaper than wet, is there any other reason to feed a dog dry food? As far as adding a supplement from the health section of the grocery store, do you mean in pill form? And, if so, do you mean opening it up and putting the powder in the dog’s food? And my last question is, you give your dog raw bones? You don’t even boil them? Why do I think this is bad? Am I wrong to think they could harbor bacteria or something? Also, I thought that certain bones can splinter and cause issues? Maybe that’s from cooking them? Please educate me further 🙂

Thanks,
Janet

[Hound Dog Mom]

There are several brands that manufacture pre-mixes. These are some of the most popular:

-The Honest Kitchen
-Sojo’s
-Grandma Lucy’s
-Urban Wolf
-Birkdale Pet Mix
-Dr. Harvey’s
-See Spot Live Longer Dinner Mixes
-U-Stew
-Wysong’s Call of the Wild

[kmarron]

Thank you for the input. I will check out the Marie’s site. Hound Dog Mom, where would I find a pre-mix?

[Hound Dog Mom]

Hi Janet –

If you’re sure the “scooting” is not due to anal gland issues I would bring a stool sample to the vet to check for parasites just in case (certain worms – such as tapeworms – can cause “scooting”).

To help with the stools and the transition to a new food I would add a spoonful of plain canned pumpkin to each meal and supplement with probiotics and digestive enzymes (there’s no need to buy a “pet” supplement, something from the health section for at the grocery store with suffice and likely be cheaper). You can continue the pumpkin and supplements permanently if need be.

Grain-free foods are, unfortunately, pricier than grain-inclusive foods. Earthborn is probably one of the most budget-friendly grain-free foods available. Some other options would be Nutrisource, Taste of the Wild, The Source, Victor, Authority and 4Health (note: Taste of the Wild and 4Health are manufactured by Diamond). NutriSource, Taste of the Wild and Source run about the same price as Earthborn while Victor, Authority and 4Health are slightly cheaper. Authority Grain-Free is available exclusively at Petsmart. The Source and 4Health are available exclusively at Tractor Supply. Earthborn, Taste of the Wild and Nutrisource can be found at most high end pet specialty stores and online. Victor will likely be the most difficult food to locate – I haven’t been able to find an online retailer and it’s not sold in my area but if you can find it, it looks like a fantastic food and it a great bargain.

You’re correct that dry food doesn’t really clean teeth, that’s a myth. I wish it wasn’t though – I’d eat potato chips and cookies all day and use the excuse that it’s for my dental health lol. 🙂 Canned food is actually healthier and more species appropriate (higher moisture content and higher protein levels) so if you can afford to occasionally buy some quality canned food (4Health has some grain-free varieties that are a bargain at only $0.99 per can) that would be great for your dog. Healthy “people food” is good to add to kibble too – eggs, tinned sardines, leftover lean meat, plain yogurt, cottage cheese, low glycemic veggies, etc.

I think raw bones are best for dental health. My dogs eat a raw diet and get raw bones daily – beef ribs, pork necks, turkey necks, chicken backs, etc. If you’re going to buy something from the store I’d go for “natural” chews (make sure they’re made in the US) such as dried tracheas, bully sticks and pig ears – these are species-appropriate (high protein, grain-free) and great for dental health. As far as “treats,” I’d go with high protein meaty treats such as jerky (made in the US of course), grain-free biscuits or freeze-dried raw foods. I’m a big fan of Nature’s Variety Instinct dog biscuits, EVO biscuits and Darford Zero-G biscuits (although I’m not sure if the Darford biscuits are being made anymore 🙁 ). I also feed freeze-dried raw (such as NV Instinct and Stella & Chewy’s) as treats.

[Hound Dog Mom]

HI kmarron –

Have you considered a pre-mix? If you use a pre-mix you just add meat and water, all the vitamins and minerals are in the pre-mix so you don’t have to worry about whether the diet is balanced. There are many pre-mixes available with low glycemic ingredients. And definitely check out the site Marie posted a link to – that site is a wonderful resource for everything dog related.

[InkedMarie]

I replied on the other thread to go to http://www.dogaware.com, I’m pretty sure he has cancer diet ino there.

[InkedMarie]

Go to http://www.dogaware.com, I’m pretty sure she has cancer diets listed there. Good luck.

[pugmomsandy]

mom2cavs,
What’s your name at dogforums?

[Mom2Cavs]

Yes, I post to dogster, dogforum, dogforums, cavalier talk, dogfoodchat, and here, of course! I also like Vital Essentials freeze dried, but it’s harder for me to get than the others.

[InkedMarie]

Black pug is yours, I imagine! I’m going to browse when I get home from the gym, see if I can find you! I’ve been a member there for years, been posting to DogFoodChat for only a year or two

[pugmomsandy]

You know, I just haven’t been there in a while! I mostly look at the picture thread when I’m there. It’s a hoot! There’s a black pug there in several of them!

[InkedMarie]

Sandy, did you realize that I’m the same InkedMarie there as I am here?

[pugmomsandy]

InkedMarie,

I’m Pugtown there, too. Rarely post except for maybe the raw feeding pictures thread a while back.

[patvl246]

Good to know, thanks

[InkedMarie]

PugMomSandy: you go to dogforums too? I know Jan does, don’t think I knew you did! What’s your name there?

[patvl246]

Thanks for the information pugmom, always interested in any info on raw food since my English Mastiff eat about 80% raw every day.

[Mom2Cavs]

I haven’t fed the NVI Raw Boost kibble to my dogs, but my cat eats it for her kibble, along with her canned and other moistened freeze dried foods, like Stella & Chewy’s and Primal. She loves this kibble way more than some others I’ve fed her….Orijen/Acana, Fromm, Nature’s Logic….so this is what she gets.